After playing endless hours on the C4 PTS it has to be painfully obvious to everyone that melee characters are even worse in C4 than they were in prelude, C1, C2, and C3. Here's why.
C4 specific problems:
-1-
Pets and summons can use SS. If you havnn't seen pets and summons in action with full BD/SWS/Summon buffs and SS, you are in for a huge surprise. They move faster than melee classes, they have as much or more HP and their patk is at least double that of the strongest melee character. So not only are melee classess inferior to archers and nukers, but now their summons and pets are stronger than a main class.
-2-
Drakonic Bow with Focus SA. No need to mention how broken this thing is.
-3-
L76+ melee skills are pathetic. With the exception of Magical Mirror, all the other good top melee skills are only useful vs other melees. Not exatly what I'd call evening the playing field here.
-4-
Magic Crit dance. Like mages needed a higher chance to crit even more. As if getting hit in every combat for 4000 damage wasn't enough, now you'll suffer more mage crits in combat, and the increase is huge.
-5-
Hamstring shot. Each archer starts off with this on one melee and it's game over. Enough said.
-6-
Zerk adds 8-9 speed. G/L catching casters and archers now. Get zerk on your melee character?? Sure, subtract 150 mdef from yourself so nukers can drop you in 2 less shots, or anchor, slow, root you without trouble.
Existing problems before C4:
-A-
Closing to melee range is nearly impossible in this game with slow melee classes, slowing skills landing often on melees, archers being the fastest classes in the game, and ranged attacks of 900.
-B-
A melee lucky enough to close the gap has to deal with the game mechanics only allowing a melee attack to make a siwng or two before having to chase the target around forever while you "autofollow" them.
-C-
Damage from bows and nukes is at least higher than even the best melee special. I think we all know that a bow crit does about 4x as much damage as the best melee crit and it has a 900 range. Bow weapons have double the patk of melee weapons. This is ridiculous.
-D-
Set bonuses are made specifically for archers and nukers. Majestic leather and DC robes are the two most broken sets in this game. Try and find a set that screams "oooh great melee armor set". They don't exist.
-E-
Stun in this game used to at least allow the melee class that was lucky enough to close the range to stun his enemy for a second or two. Now, with the super high stun resist of Majestic you can forget about it. Need I mention the very high land rate of archer stun shot?? Ranged stun attack too? Come on. Strip this from archers and give it to Warlords or TKs or something else useless.
-F-
Dagger nerf. At one point there was one feared melee class and it was the dagger. Not anymore. How many daggers can you name that left the game or rerolled? I can name a lot. Now all melees are equally poor in PVP, bascially useless compared to a archer or nuker.
-G-
Mage tattoos. All 3 of the dyes applied by mages has ZERO negative affects on PVP. Here's what they add: +4 WIT, +4 INT, +4 CON. -8 MEN, -4 STR. Slightly lower mdef and tons more HP, cast speed, and matk.
Conclusions
It has to be obvious to everyone that no one cares about or even plays melee characters anymore. They are just terrible in PVP, and this is why almost all subclassed DDs are nukers or archers. I play on a high pop server and can't name one melee subclass DD. I can name about 200 nuker or archer subclasses though.
There are countless problems and something radical needs to be done and soon. 4 Chronicles of weaker and weaker melee classes is making them all but extinct.
:( ..sigh.... Nothing will probably change this...until NCsoft actually decides to take notice of this
I mean when a level 40 temple knight full buffs, highest C grade armor, jewelry, and weapon all enchanted at least alittle, gets killed by some Archer thats not even in top D grade anyhting, something is horibly wrong.
And when that same temple knights trys to test this on a clan member at the arena a level 35 mage class with the T.K. at level 42, and loses terrible, SOMETHING IS WRONG! :(
:( ..sigh.... Nothing will probably change this...until NCsoft actually decides to take notice of this
I mean when a level 40 temple knight full buffs, highest C grade armor, jewelry, and weapon all enchanted at least alittle, gets killed by some Archer thats not even in top D grade anyhting, something is horibly wrong.
And when that same temple knights trys to test this on a clan member at the arena a level 35 mage class with the T.K. at level 42, and loses terrible, SOMETHING IS WRONG! :(
It gets worse at higher levels. My 65 necro can kill 2-3 level 75 melees and it's not even close. Tested it 100+ times, and every result is the same.
And who cares? Nobody that can make a difference :(-- I've discovered through the Chronicles that player input for game mechanics is minimal and in most cases non-existent for those who play and subscribe onto NA/Euro servers.
Pets use melee attacks, and are generally used by classes that benefit more from using melee than attempting to use spells (necromancer is the exception). This is not a melee-versus-ranged problem, and belongs in a seperate thread.
Zerk adds 8-9 speed. G/L catching casters and archers now.
If your melee character can't catch casters then you are doing something seriously wrong, such as using above-grade armor.
It's also worth mentioning that, with the exception of prophets, your poor little melee character has equal access to that spell as the characters you're complaining about.
This is not a melee-versus-ranged problem, and belongs in a serparate thread, if it merits any attention at all.
The rest, well, that's a fair enough summary of the existing problems.
ewww soo sad. I hate that there are a majority of characetrs that go unused. So many cool classes with interesting skills. But people who really want to have any involvement in PvP in this game reroll nuker or archer. Maybe a support class.
I have made too many points in too many of these threads, so I wont go into it too much. But I have wondered something.
There are people on either side of this argument. And I don't want to argue that nukers and archers are way overpowered, I just want to ask....why do they keep giving them the best skills and SAs? were they in need? was no one playing them? were they not winning as much or more than they were losing? Is there some sort of back and forth arms race between nukers and archers, and melees are left out? I just dont get it.
I hear many thing (unsure of their validity) that koreans play different characters than we do, and play differently than we do. I would love to see what their server population looks like. What the most popular classes are, how often they PVp, and how. I bet very little of what we say here makes it over there, and I'd also bet what they do hear from us gets less consideration than what they hear from korean players. Wonder if things will ever balance out.
You will see less and less melee characters as more and more people will stop playing one. PvP balance is onesided to ranged chars. PvE is onesided to ranged chars. The sws and bd will dissapear as the new party buffs come into play that do basicly the same as their buffs. The only two that will be needed are the bh and the ws as nobody has spells to do what they can do.
EcronyteIDC: It's quite easy to see, in fact you know all healers but EE have always got boot's the latest chronicles in fact EE was the most popular class in Korea... see WAS.
Also summoners was never popular there thats why they got boosted like crazy.
Same for a few other classes. Thats how it works there, non popular classes get boosted the others does not.
Well being a lvl 76 Gladiator on the PTS I don't think it is really that bad.
I took out the new shadow summon of another lvl 76 player, and then took out the player themselves. Mind you they healed their summon until they were out of MP.
Then I went to the arena and took out a mage in S grade (I am in BW with dual SLS). I then took out an archer in A grade! I took out an TK in A grade...and then I finally died. I dunno how the other melee are, but I think I faired pretty well.
See that is just totally unfair, i'm a plainswalker and hardly do any damage to any class so far, in c4 my class and all DD's are just going to be totally wiped out, like will there even be a point to playing these types of characters? I'm not chance against a tank or a mage in any case.
maybe they want it as realistic as possible :) or, well, magic doesent exist but you know what I mean :)
a melee fighter stand no chanse vs an archer in real life, he will get pierced several times befor he even can get close to the archer :)
and a mage, well, the same there, except a mage can be very deadly in close combat as well I guess, but once you get close, he dies fast as well...
and mages vs archers, could be an even figth? first hit wins? :)
can it be like that? ;)
I think the majority of the Lineage II players will agree that melee characters are seriously underpowered. Each chronicle they continue to give archers and mages things that completely overshadow melees. Focus on a bow?? More casting speed and matk? Hamstring shot? Like they really needed those things. Lineage really needs a maximum cap system implemented, meaning everything would be measured by a minimum and maximum output. Something like this was originally in c3 but was removed when it went live. For c4 I expected tons of necros and archers running around killing me in one hit for six months or when ever Ncsoft decides to launch c5.
Pets use melee attacks, and are generally used by classes that benefit more from using melee than attempting to use spells (necromancer is the exception). This is not a melee-versus-ranged problem, and belongs in a seperate thread.
Zerk adds 8-9 speed. G/L catching casters and archers now.
If your melee character can't catch casters then you are doing something seriously wrong, such as using above-grade armor.
It's also worth mentioning that, with the exception of prophets, your poor little melee character has equal access to that spell as the characters you're complaining about.
This is not a melee-versus-ranged problem, and belongs in a serparate thread, if it merits any attention at all.
The rest, well, that's a fair enough summary of the existing problems.
Every mage class has a way to slow melees with little to no resistance.
Every chronicle the ranged classes get more powerful and the melees get nothing, which contributes to their steady decline.
Zerk adds 8-9 speed. G/L catching casters and archers now.
...
It's also worth mentioning that, with the exception of prophets, your poor little melee character has equal access to that spell as the characters you're complaining about.
Every mage class has a way to slow melees with little to no resistance.
Every chronicle the ranged classes get more powerful and the melees get nothing, which contributes to their steady decline.
In January, the mean temperature for Birmingham, Alabama is 42 degrees Fahrenheit.
Zerk adds 8-9 speed. G/L catching casters and archers now.
...
It's also worth mentioning that, with the exception of prophets, your poor little melee character has equal access to that spell as the characters you're complaining about.
Every mage class has a way to slow melees with little to no resistance.
Every chronicle the ranged classes get more powerful and the melees get nothing, which contributes to their steady decline.
In January, the mean temperature for Birmingham, Alabama is 42 degrees Fahrenheit.
How many people do you know still plays a DA, TK, paladin? Not many eh. How about how many people that subclass one of these classes, or a EE, bishop? Eh that's what I thought.
Everyone that I know subs an archer or nuker. That's all this game will end up being.
I completely agree with the original poster. See this is the problem now everyone starts to say that there is a problem. When daggers were hit hard with the nerf in c3 nobody was listening. Granted the right thing they started to do was to nerf aura flare. Frankly I dont understand why they did it in the first place.
Moving along what I learned is that playing a dagger now let alone melee is pointless. Now they changed it to where I cant do damage to any heavy armor which sucks because 70 percent of the classes in this game use heavy armor. Next you say daggers are robe killers i wish that was the case. lets see for mages against melee you have the mage can sleep, para, root , slow . An archer can entangle(well SR that is) , get bow in c4 with critical slow. The problem with all this is that when you are a melee class you have a hard time reaching an archer or mage as it is. Adding those spells which I listed above makes it far worse for melee. Anyways Im trying to understand here a fighter say tank or destroyer whatever goes up to use ss and hits the mage for what a crit of 200 to 300 damage? While a mage thoros a DPS of 1400 damage per spell. That really doesnt compare. Dont tell me nukers are fragile because now that cp was introduced mages can live for a lot longer and take many people out before dying. next on to the archers I mean I know they give me around 400 to 500 damage per shot with SS which is fine but why is the crit multiplied by 3X more. So 1200 damage on a crit.
Now in c4 you have mages given the Acumen SA on sword of valhalla. Oh joy if you thought nukers hitting you for 1400 damage per spell wasnt enough wait till you get a couple of shots from this weapon. Im quite shocked people say that Might mortal for daggers was too powerful when all it did was bring dagger land rate to 70 percent . But having a 15 percent cast speed from SA and 15 percent cast speed from robe is nothing? hmm lets think here mages casting 1400 damage a nuke and casting 2 to 3 spells in less than 3 seconds. Gee I wonder who would win. My goodness the creator of ncsoft must play an archer or something. Draconic bow with focus? Are you kidding me? Now archers will guaranteed be able to 2 shot people.
Now I look at all the melee and I think to myself whats up with melee only having mdef of 500 to 600. melee are the ones that need resistance to mages not other mages.
All in all ive played a dagger since the game launched and im terribly upset at the balance of the game. They continue to ignore the imbalance that this game has. Ive long since and ill admit that ive rerolled to a necromancer. yah i feel part of the reroll train but who cares because this game cares nothing for the melee classes. You see it every chronicles they just make archers and nukers better than the last chronicles. So only options now roll a nuker/archer or basically quit the game because you will become frustrated.
In the mist of things as this is a team game, having lots of melee and meat shields to run in on the archers and nukers as your archers and nukers push up behind them really helps alot, the archers/mages have to waste their time targetting the melee's and tanks which take ALOT of damage before gettin dropped, while the other side with the melee can easily pick off archers and mages as their meat shields work /w them... every class has their roll... and daggers used to 2 shot me in C2, so I don't want to hear about how mages are overpowered...
I guess I'm in luck as I have one of each of the good classes. So for me it would be question "Do i Log in my Archer and make Pin-Cushions out of ppl or Do I log in my nuker and Roast em to death in 2-3 nukes. *Evil Smile*
Seriously though, I doubt things will change for the melee class. Might as well aim for getting to S grade and getting that Focus bow, whether you're an archer or not, or as do as I've done after playing a Bounty Hunter, reroll into Archer/Nuker.
In the mist of things as this is a team game, having lots of melee and meat shields to run in on the archers and nukers as your archers and nukers push up behind them really helps alot, the archers/mages have to waste their time targetting the melee's and tanks which take ALOT of damage before gettin dropped, while the other side with the melee can easily pick off archers and mages as their meat shields work /w them... every class has their roll... and daggers used to 2 shot me in C2, so I don't want to hear about how mages are overpowered...
This is not C2 and when was the last time you got 2 shotted by a melee? I can remember being two shotted by nukers though. Not so long ago even.
i have a lvl 34 dwarven artisan and i suck at pvp...i can admit this...but i do know why i suck at pvp...the game is un balanced towards ANY fighter classes...the skill proglressivly taper off in use and game value and the slow atk speed of any decent wepon doest help that fact that one gets shot 2-3 times before even reaching the player you are trying to pvp!! even i u are an a*s hole and are pking and u sneeek up on any archer class they just kite you and you might as wel kiss you but good by...this game is great but ALL classes should be a litle morebalanced...
i have noticed an increase on nukers and archers lately...i wonder why...lol :p
In the mist of things as this is a team game, having lots of melee and meat shields to run in on the archers and nukers as your archers and nukers push up behind them really helps alot, the archers/mages have to waste their time targetting the melee's and tanks which take ALOT of damage before gettin dropped, while the other side with the melee can easily pick off archers and mages as their meat shields work /w them... every class has their roll... and daggers used to 2 shot me in C2, so I don't want to hear about how mages are overpowered...
Ask yourself if your side would be better off if that melee group was a archer or nuker group. There's no way you can say your side would be much better off with another archer or nuker group instead of a useless melee group.
Reducing bow and nuke damage by 50% in PVP would at least give non ranged classes more of a chance to get close. Even with 12k HP and 4k CP, my level 75 melee can't even get close to anyone before dying to ranged attacks or being slowed and kited to death. Even when I do get close I usually only get one special off, and for what?, a massive 500-1000 damage if I'm lucky.
Fix your game NC. Are you blind to what's going on here?
Reducing bow and nuke damage by 50% in PVP would at least give non ranged classes more of a chance to get close. Even with 12k HP and 4k CP, my level 75 melee can't even get close to anyone before dying to ranged attacks or being slowed and kited to death. Even when I do get close I usually only get one special off, and for what?, a massive 500-1000 damage if I'm lucky.
Fix your game NC. Are you blind to what's going on here?
though i have yet to reach those levels of health and cp and even dmg..i absolutatly with out a shadow of a doubt agree..there should be some sort of change in the class structure to bridge the gap
:( ..sigh.... Nothing will probably change this...until NCsoft actually decides to take notice of this
I mean when a level 40 temple knight full buffs, highest C grade armor, jewelry, and weapon all enchanted at least alittle, gets killed by some Archer thats not even in top D grade anyhting, something is horibly wrong.
And when that same temple knights trys to test this on a clan member at the arena a level 35 mage class with the T.K. at level 42, and loses terrible, SOMETHING IS WRONG! :(
Your TK friend is foolish. The only way for a TK to PVP anything is to 1. Have cubics up 2. HIT until your HP are low 3. UD and regen 2k hp in the time it takes for the UD to wear off. 4. If the mage is stupid they will waste the rest of their MP while the UD is up. 5. NO MP = THEY DIE !!
Jode 19 % to 61 TK
ps. I play TK caus ,from the start, we got SCREWED HARD, and nothin makes me fell better than beatin someone in PVP caus they are like , OMG I was Just Killed be a TK ><. While
NC soft bumps others down TK stay the same , and mabey we'll be better once every other class is totaly nerfed to high hell.
:( ..sigh.... Nothing will probably change this...until NCsoft actually decides to take notice of this
I mean when a level 40 temple knight full buffs, highest C grade armor, jewelry, and weapon all enchanted at least alittle, gets killed by some Archer thats not even in top D grade anyhting, something is horibly wrong.
And when that same temple knights trys to test this on a clan member at the arena a level 35 mage class with the T.K. at level 42, and loses terrible, SOMETHING IS WRONG! :(
Your TK friend is foolish. The only way for a TK to PVP anything is to 1. Have cubics up 2. HIT until your HP are low 3. UD and regen 2k hp in the time it takes for the UD to wear off. 4. If the mage is stupid they will waste the rest of their MP while the UD is up. 5. NO MP = THEY DIE !!
Jode 19 % to 61 TK
ps. I play TK caus ,from the start, we got SCREWED HARD, and nothin makes me fell better than beatin someone in PVP caus they are like , OMG I was Just Killed be a TK ><. While
NC soft bumps others down TK stay the same , and mabey we'll be better once every other class is totaly nerfed to high hell.
......ok..what? you used WAY to many abrevs. in that last little spout....im imbetween classes so my brain is shut down COMPLEETLY for the next 45mins....please re type with the whole words...or just call me an idiot and move on...what ever works :p
:( ..sigh.... Nothing will probably change this...until NCsoft actually decides to take notice of this
I mean when a level 40 temple knight full buffs, highest C grade armor, jewelry, and weapon all enchanted at least alittle, gets killed by some Archer thats not even in top D grade anyhting, something is horibly wrong.
And when that same temple knights trys to test this on a clan member at the arena a level 35 mage class with the T.K. at level 42, and loses terrible, SOMETHING IS WRONG! :(
Your TK friend is foolish. The only way for a TK to PVP anything is to 1. Have cubics up 2. HIT until your HP are low 3. UD and regen 2k hp in the time it takes for the UD to wear off. 4. If the mage is stupid they will waste the rest of their MP while the UD is up. 5. NO MP = THEY DIE !!
Jode 19 % to 61 TK
ps. I play TK caus ,from the start, we got SCREWED HARD, and nothin makes me fell better than beatin someone in PVP caus they are like , OMG I was Just Killed be a TK ><. While
NC soft bumps others down TK stay the same , and mabey we'll be better once every other class is totaly nerfed to high hell.
I <3 Ultimate Defense! But the god **** cooldown! :eek:
never ever ever complain that mages are too powerful, cos u cant kill them. thats part of the diversity of the game.
O yes so very true, thats why everybody and their dog is rerolling to a nuker. Thats why some classes are near extinct. Very diverse indeed.
Yeah! Even my dog is rerolling a nuker; and I thought that I had the only dog that played L2
:eek:
Try as I may, I cannot justify attacks on other players of the same level that take away 1500+ HP/CP during one attack. Especially when that one attack is the normal damage and be used just as fast as a sword can be swung.
When a meele type charater gets to a mage or an archer the fight is already over. Sword swings should be capable of dishing out 1500+ HP/CP damage in one attack.
That water attack can hit you half a dozen time before you reach a mage - but if you are hit that many times you probally never made it to the mage.
never ever ever complain that mages are too powerful, cos u cant kill them. thats part of the diversity of the game.
O yes so very true, thats why everybody and their dog is rerolling to a nuker. Thats why some classes are near extinct. Very diverse indeed.
Yeah! Even my dog is rerolling a nuker; and I thought that I had the only dog that played L2
:eek:
Try as I may, I cannot justify attacks on other players of the same level that take away 1500+ HP/CP during one attack. Especially when that one attack is the normal damage and be used just as fast as a sword can be swung.
When a meele type charater gets to a mage or an archer the fight is already over. Sword swings should be capable of dishing out 1500+ HP/CP damage in one attack.
That water attack can hit you half a dozen time before you reach a mage - but if you are hit that many times you probally never made it to the mage.
and?
whats the problem? mages were made that was since prelude. if youre just now cluing in to the fact that mages willl always really really really out do melee in any game, ur undeniably ******ed.
Wait and attack the mage when they are low/out of mana. If you engage them at full mana, you are chosing to attack them on their terms, at their strength and at your weakness.
So much of PvP is mental, planning, thinking, patience......
One of the joys of the game for me is winning in PvP with a lower level toon against a higher toon which is (per common wisdom) a better PvP class than I am. When that happens, I KNOW that I am better than the other player.
I remember in Prelude and C1 mages all complained that archers and melee were overpowered, lol. Then NC Soft nerfed the [censored] out of everything that made melee and archers good (evasion and critical rate). And to top it all off gave mages Blessed SpS, Acumen SA, and free HP/Stun Resist. C1 was probably the most balanced I ever remembered in this game. C2 and C3 totally [censored] balance and there are FOUR main things that contributed to this: Tatoos, Critical Rate nerf, Might Mortal SA, and Acumen SA.
One of the joys of the game for me is winning in PvP with a lower level toon against a higher toon which is (per common wisdom) a better PvP class than I am. When that happens, I KNOW that I am better than the other player.
or try beating a lvl 60 mage with 70 melee, fun too ...
there are FOUR main things that contributed to this: Tatoos, Critical Rate nerf, Might Mortal SA, and Acumen SA.
for me it's
- BSpS who increase speed, dmg, rate effect ... SS only increase dmg and you have to come to close combat to use them ...
- acu SA
- critical rate or pattk on bow way too high ...
- mdef way too low to PvP...
- over enchant who make any weapon +XX a mage weapon :p
To my opinion, only way to balance L2 is to nerf range DD Damage Per Second against melee ! you have many ways to do it ! just have to do it now ...
MM SA is fine, what was NOT fine -> dagger specials ignoring pdef.MM is good for PvP this alone means another dagger for PvE, this alone makes MM fine (chance to drop you MM dagger while in PvE is not very appealing).
Acumen SA is good for PvP and PvE, mage tats are good for PvE AND PvP (-str +con is not good for PvE at all when it comes to daggers). Nukers dont even need to think what to choose: +4int, +4wit,+4con.. All free. So imo aside acumen SA the most imballanced factor are the tats and shiled. Blessed shiled 6 makes a SH uber shield master, add adv block and you'd be amazed (more than that!).
Blessed SpS increasing cast speed and being plain overpowered is obvious: Olympiad prohibits use of BSpS for a reason...
All in all nukers need not to make any choice if they want PvP setup or PvE and that's wrong. Very wrong. On top of that armor sets are heavily favoring nukers:
Brinigng Zerk issue (that reduces mdef in c4).SH in DC + w/ zerk2 and WW2 (even w/o dex tat) is faster than TH w/ WW2 (quick step incl).
Just had my mage in the hot springs area on the PTS. Here's a hint, don't go there unless you're a nuker or in a nuker party. One of the hot springs buffs added to my cast speed and matk. I don't know the exact numbers, but my matk was almost 4k and my cast speed was closing in on 2k. Now that's what I call play balance. :|
Just had my mage in the hot springs area on the PTS. Here's a hint, don't go there unless you're a nuker or in a nuker party. One of the hot springs buffs added to my cast speed and matk. I don't know the exact numbers, but my matk was almost 4k and my cast speed was closing in on 2k. Now that's what I call play balance. :|
So, what you are saying is that I've found a home! :)
Just had my mage in the hot springs area on the PTS. Here's a hint, don't go there unless you're a nuker or in a nuker party. One of the hot springs buffs added to my cast speed and matk. I don't know the exact numbers, but my matk was almost 4k and my cast speed was closing in on 2k. Now that's what I call play balance. :|
So, what you are saying is that I've found a home! :)
I got owned in hotsprings area badly playing a nuker. I was happy to have some melee friends help me. Of course I am a noob nuker.
MM SA is fine, what was NOT fine -> dagger specials ignoring pdef.MM is good for PvP this alone means another dagger for PvE, this alone makes MM fine (chance to drop you MM dagger while in PvE is not very appealing).
Agreed, except for the fact that it wasn't the dagger specials that ignored pdef, it was the VS toggle. VS made all crits more powerful, and made crits ignore patk. A destroyer or glad with VS on would do the same thing when they crit. That was as BUG, and because of that bug, it caused daggers to get way over-nerfed to their current, sad state.
I was new to the lifestyle. Trying to figure out what my main nuke was, how those handy dandy but totally seed skills are etc. I also failed to find normal mobs to train on and then entering a new zone with x2 mobs and all kind of weird abilities surely is not the safest place to learn to play one. ;)
Boy did I spam Aura Flare a lot. One time I made it out with only 45 hp left. Only to encounter a red griefing squad to finish the job.
I was new to the lifestyle. Trying to figure out what my main nuke was, how those handy dandy but totally seed skills are etc. I also failed to find normal mobs to train on and then entering a new zone with x2 mobs and all kind of weird abilities surely is not the safest place to learn to play one. ;)
Boy did I spam Aura Flare a lot. One time I made it out with only 45 hp left. Only to encounter a red griefing squad to finish the job.
I had the same issue with the destroyer sub...
though I was impressed that I could be "wailed on" by two yellow mobs and live with no issues, I had some issues figuring out some of the skills. When to use them.... which skills were bogus or seemed to do very little... etc.
:( ..sigh.... Nothing will probably change this...until NCsoft actually decides to take notice of this
I mean when a level 40 temple knight full buffs, highest C grade armor, jewelry, and weapon all enchanted at least alittle, gets killed by some Archer thats not even in top D grade anyhting, something is horibly wrong.
And when that same temple knights trys to test this on a clan member at the arena a level 35 mage class with the T.K. at level 42, and loses terrible, SOMETHING IS WRONG! :(
Your TK friend is foolish. The only way for a TK to PVP anything is to 1. Have cubics up 2. HIT until your HP are low 3. UD and regen 2k hp in the time it takes for the UD to wear off. 4. If the mage is stupid they will waste the rest of their MP while the UD is up. 5. NO MP = THEY DIE !!
Jode 19 % to 61 TK
ps. I play TK caus ,from the start, we got SCREWED HARD, and nothin makes me fell better than beatin someone in PVP caus they are like , OMG I was Just Killed be a TK ><. While
NC soft bumps others down TK stay the same , and mabey we'll be better once every other class is totaly nerfed to high hell.
......ok..what? you used WAY to many abrevs. in that last little spout....im imbetween classes so my brain is shut down COMPLEETLY for the next 45mins....please re type with the whole words...or just call me an idiot and move on...what ever works :p
TK = temple knight
PvP = player versus player
UD = Ultimate Defense
OMG = oh my god
MP = mana points
After playing more PTS, and playing a lot in the Olympiad, I draw the following conclusions. The Olympiad is semi-balanced between melee and ranged, but nukers still own most classes.
In real PVP, where everyone has the buffs they want, and where most of the PVP occurrs in L2, ranged DD classes completely blow away melee DDs to the point where the melee DDs are nothing more than targets. This is even true if the combat starts at point blank range.
The new mage specific buffs, the extra crit rate and crit damage buffs, and all the new slowing ranged skills nukers and archers get, means melee DDs have even more difficulties getting into close range. Even if they do, and they rarely do, they really don't do very much compared to nukes hitting for 2k damage or 6k crits, and arrows hitting for 800 and 4k crits.
I'm sorry, for a game with almost no character customization, this game is not play balanced.
Meh... a few things to add to this already well beaten and well dead horse.
In fact an old penny-arcade comic comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/12/13) comes to mind when discussing balance in lineage. (ignore the tribes references of course)
With that said.... what I will now add is a downright foolish notion with regards to a game where magic attack is a factor.... but in terms of balance this game needs a slice of realism. Yeah I said it...
Archers should have a minimum range. A dwarf using her mace to pound an archer point blank should interupt his bow shot. Yeah thats right when Daisy the crazy dwarf comes running at you in a mass pvp (with that crazy look in her eye) and you don't run.... you gotta use a dagger or kite her. Thus one dwarf takes one archer out of the fight at worst.
A destroyer bringing his dragon slayer to bear should slice a mage in half.... no seriously.... they should add a kill graphic into the game that shows the mage split in two. Hey. I subbed a mage, we need that pdef for pve bad
(i like the free +4 con too).... but why no give every robe user passive melee weakness in pvp.... just sayin.....
I never had a problem with daggers two shotting mages or archers up close, my only grief with it was they were 3 shoting UD'd tanks 10 levels higher them (yes I exagerate.) So hey bring back might mortal, just don't have them ignoring p.def again.
These are just a cluster of thoughts... I realize they would bring up other issues, your welcome to discuss them if you like.
i agree on alot. i mean... robe = no protection, jsut to cover his special parts :p so that bigass 50 ton piece of metal (dragon slayer) should slice that mage in half or atleast cut off an arm so he cant cast anymore. wouldnt be a bad idea to give such weapons a debuff upon hitting robes.
same with archers ye.. couldnt agree more, how can you fire a bow when someone wacks at it with a bigass club, snapping your bow in half and making sure that arrow slips out of his hands. i believe the archer specials should atleast be interuptable at close range combat. if the mages turn into the true paper cannons they should be, dying in 1 to 3 hits it might be ballance again, but wacking on a mage for 2 minutes and them still being alive and hitting you for more then you hit them seems a bit odd
wacking on a mage for 2 minutes and them still being alive and hitting you for more then you hit them seems a bit odd
You can be pounding on a nuker for 2 minutes straight and have him still be alive and attacking you? What are you hitting him with, an apprentice wand? :eek:
hehe it wasnt THAT bad but what i mean is at close range a mage shouldnt stand a chance. i should 3 hit him but without buffs it would take you WAY to much time.. specially when he ATM can just aura flare his way out of any melee, and later on he`ll jsut sleep you laugh and nuke and sleep again..
it should be wack wack dead mage, not wack wach etc on one side.. and flare flare flare flare ( in 1 second ) dead melee
and like i said in C4 it`ll be either sleep n nuke all over again, or just nuke normally because it still hurts :p
Just Give Meelees root that works 100% and we have no problems ;)
That would help but it wouldnt be enough. As a melee you should be able to dish out a lot of damage once they are close to you. I like the idea of the robe debuffs in melee. Another good idea is to bring the old prelude stuns back. You know the same ones that the mobs are still using.
Just Give Meelees root that works 100% and we have no problems ;)
That would help but it wouldnt be enough. As a melee you should be able to dish out a lot of damage once they are close to you. I like the idea of the robe debuffs in melee. Another good idea is to bring the old prelude stuns back. You know the same ones that the mobs are still using.
Oh yes, those stuns. The 90% stuns. Remember kids, it's not 100%! There's still that 10% that you could NOT get stunned. To bad that'll never happen as the chances are rerolled each time the skill is used o.o.
Just Give Meelees root that works 100% and we have no problems ;)
That would help but it wouldnt be enough. As a melee you should be able to dish out a lot of damage once they are close to you. I like the idea of the robe debuffs in melee. Another good idea is to bring the old prelude stuns back. You know the same ones that the mobs are still using.
Oh yes, those stuns. The 90% stuns. Remember kids, it's not 100%! There's still that 10% that you could NOT get stunned. To bad that'll never happen as the chances are rerolled each time the skill is used o.o.
You have to admit, those stuns made tanks a fiercesome opponent. You have to admit that any nuker/archer seriously will want to avoid tanks closing in on them. Even with their resist stun robes on. Consider it the tanks sleep/root. I think that would balance things rather nicely.
yes, 90% stun? when? You can have Res. Shock buff, Res shock robe, +4 con... Stun doesn't land so often.
Fortunately at 76 wisdom skill+mental aegis+nm+m. barrier robe make sleeping harder.
That would help but it wouldnt be enough. As a melee you should be able to dish out a lot of damage once they are close to you. I like the idea of the robe debuffs in melee. Another good idea is to bring the old prelude stuns back. You know the same ones that the mobs are still using.
man thats what i keep saying
amazing that 1 mob in pve can stun you 90% of the time even though its blue and you have the highest con in game
but then to have 30+ mobs beat on you while the stun lasts the full 8 seconds is just rediculous
meanwhile my stun lands abut 50% on a sps 10 lvls lower than me and breaks on the first hit 80% of the time
i just look away when i fight a nuker who hasnt completely forgot about sleep/nuke/sleep/nuke
seriously sleep has a 99% land rate from someone even close to your lvl so whats it matter what damage they actually nuke for?
>>seriously sleep has a 99% land rate from someone even close to your lvl so whats it matter what damage they actually nuke for?
----
Not any more, I am so glad sleep is nerfed, in PTS i dont use sleep in open PvP... MA+A grade jewels and 76 skill wisdom+nerfing of sleep make sleep land less than 40% (or less w/ NM, I dont use NM myself, but I will test these days).
Not any more, I am so glad sleep is nerfed, in PTS i dont use sleep in open PvP... MA+A grade jewels and 76 skill wisdom+nerfing of sleep make sleep land less than 40% (or less w/ NM, I dont use NM myself, but I will test these days).
so what you are saying is that with the perfect set up to resist sleep and nearly maxed out lvl you can resist sleep 40% when all mage classes can cast sleep 5 times before the average melee can reach them?
any maffs experts here that can tell me what the resist % is with those numbers?
In the mist of things as this is a team game, having lots of melee and meat shields to run in on the archers and nukers as your archers and nukers push up behind them really helps alot, the archers/mages have to waste their time targetting the melee's and tanks which take ALOT of damage before gettin dropped, while the other side with the melee can easily pick off archers and mages as their meat shields work /w them... every class has their roll... and daggers used to 2 shot me in C2, so I don't want to hear about how mages are overpowered...
Ahem, excuse me that was not "daggers" 2 shotting you. That was an Abyss Walker named Jetta who outleveled you by alot!
IMO The unbalance is not the damage Mages dish out, it's the way Mdef is calculated in pvp, On PTS with my TK, in Full NM And Majestic Jewels, is getting Hit for 13k damage, thats insane.
Even more insane is that i get hit by A Necro for 600 damage, when i UD. Archer are no problem for a TK though.
Close range DD's should be able to evade Magic attacks and yes they should be able to 2 shot a mage if they get close. Daggers are hardly played properly though.
At the moment mages kill all melee 100% off the time should be more like 60%.
If NC would nerf Mage damage Mage PVE would be terrible, a mage needs to kill fast to survive.
I like to see,
Bow masteries factored out when toe to toe,
Better Working MDef and Magic evasion,
Note : An MMORPG should never be completely Balanced IMHO. Its all about different play styles, I chose a MDef Tank the TK. I new i wasn't going to PK much, Also the game would get Boring fast and boards would be rly quiet
I was thinking about it. And I really think Bsps not effecting the debuff land rate in PvP would help balance things a bit.
Of course NCs lame attempt at balancing bsps and debuffs was 70% resist on some armor sets. So my suggestion might be overkill (although mages rarely try to sleep someone in NM anyway) But I think things would be more even if sleep, root, slow, etc actually had a chance of failing, instead of the current 99.9999999% chance of success they currently have with bsps.
Nukers would still be able to cast so fast that they could machine gun out debuffs, or just dps like crazy. And the bsps would still make damage insane. But at least there is a small chance they will fail a few debuffs and Ill get close enough to be a threat.
I really don't mind that other classes are superior to me in PvP, Im a tank, I never expected to own. But when I fight an archer, or melee DD, I get to fight, I get to act and react, I get to toss out skills, I get to wear them down at very least. In a fight against a nuker I am extremely lucky to make it within 400 range. I am very lucky to use a single skill. I dont mind a little embalance, but I would not call consistantly being unable to even make a single attack "a little embalance".
Nukers does great damage but to compensate for this, they take longer to hit (casting time) and can have the spell get interupted. As it is now they've almost completly covered their draw-backs.
Now if Melees can cover their draw-backs which would be dealing out greater damage because they hit more often, it would balance things. But that isn't going to happen. So decrease the effects of ++ casting speed and increase base interupt rate to like 95% and it's all set.
Yeah this means Nukers have to watch out more for Archers and Melees how gets too close are more troublesome. Nukers shouldn't be killing everyone whether they are far or near.
Nukers does great damage but to compensate for this, they take longer to hit (casting time) and can have the spell get interupted. As it is now they've almost completly covered their draw-backs.
I could be reading what you've written totally wrong, but this couldn't be farther from the truth. Not only do they do more damage than anything in the game, they have the potential to do it faster than anyone else. With the right setup they can get off nukes faster than any melee skills or attacks. I stand by my claim that casting speed and not damage is the main problem.
Oh, and I would love to see some "fizzles" too. I know it sounds like I'm always hating on nukers, but I'm sure none of you are worried that life will ever get worse for you. lol
Nukers does great damage but to compensate for this, they take longer to hit (casting time) and can have the spell get interupted. As it is now they've almost completly covered their draw-backs.
I could be reading what you've written totally wrong, but this couldn't be farther from the truth. Not only do they do more damage than anything in the game, they have the potential to do it faster than anyone else. With the right setup they can get off nukes faster than any melee skills or attacks. I stand by my claim that casting speed and not damage is the main problem.
Oh, and I would love to see some "fizzles" too. I know it sounds like I'm always hating on nukers, but I'm sure none of you are worried that life will ever get worse for you. lol
What I meant was, Nukers origenaly were suppose to "hit" a bit slower but does more damage. Because they hit a little slower they're open to being interupted. But now with these ++ cast speed setups their drawbacks are greatly reduced. Not to mention Concentration works way too well and contradicts the whole purpose of being interupted.
daggers were supposed to do a great deal of damage, their drawback was that they had a chance to miss. With buffs and SAs, it became rare for a dagger to miss. Therefor they totaly overcame their drawbacks, and were overpowered.
Nukers are as many will state, glass cannons. They are meant to dish out high damage somewhat slowly, they are meant to have a variety of "keep away" spells, to keep melee out of their range, cuz once melee get to them, they tear them apart. But these keep away spells were meant to be not unlike dagger specials. They were meant to have a chance to fail depending on enemies mdef and resistances, as well as buffs. As it stands now, nukers have done away with slow casting, and therefor lessened the chance for interuption. They can get +con-str dyes at no disadvantage. And with bsps it is a very rare occasion that a "keep away" spell wont land, and if in the off chance it does, they can cast another in no time at all.
Nukers seem to be able to rid themselves of almost every down side they were intended to have. All except maybe their poor pdef.....whoopty doo
Daggers were melee's only chance in pvp.....NC sure took care of that by over nerfing them. I'll give you pdef should have been taken into account on dagger specials, but every other nerf they did to dagger was a disgrace to the class and melee's in general.
Until melee's are fixed, this game will continue to be 2 sided, ranged vs ranged......I've made 2 huge threads on this very subject now on this main board and nothing has been done to help melee at all.....I give up, I'm subbing nuker now anyway so death to melee is fine with NC, guess it has to be fine with us too.
I'm not saying thats how it should have been, but thats the truth of how this game has always been, daggers were the only melee class that could actually kill ranged and all the nukers/archers complained about daggers and they were nerfed into the stone ages with the rest of the melee.
I'm not saying thats how it should have been, but thats the truth of how this game has always been, daggers were the only melee class that could actually kill ranged and all the nukers/archers complained about daggers and they were nerfed into the stone ages with the rest of the melee.
I call BS. That is not "the truth of how this game has always been", you're being very narrow-minded here.
Tyrants can't kill ranged foes. Swordsingers definitely aren't good against mages. Phantom Summoners don't bother nukers at all.
Do I need to go on, or are you ready to acknowlege that there are other melee classes that have beaten and continue to beat nukers often enough to count?
Get over it, this game has a poor design. If you don't like it, leave it or reroll a nuker/archer. Koreans will never listen to what we have to say. Just make the best you can do with what you have until a new better game is out.
Well I didnt read it all, but here is one fact.
Archers crit 2/3 for 3000-3500 damage on most targets especialy soft ones.
Spellhowlers currently crit like 1/17 fully buffed for about 3500-4000 damage on people with warding and normally without debuffs they hit for 900 when other party has buffs including warding...
Now tell me whos doing more damage and whos overpowered. The way i see it, it takes me much longer to kill a hawkeye than it does for them to kill me. They not only do more damage but they also have a ton more CP and HP than I do. And lastly the more important thing to note is if i get crit twice or hit once then crit on by the hawkeye i cant even get a heal, even in the rare case the nuker party has a bishop in it. But while i am hitting the archer he has enough hp/cp to get healed easily.
HOW DOES NC SOFT FIX THE ALLREADY OVERPOWERED NESS OF ARCHERS; THEY GIVE THEM A BOW WITH FOCCUS AND NEW WARLOCK BUFFS.
Notice i said spellhowlers, not mages... I know the sorc and sps bling bling aura spell which i am gimped out of getting makes them slightly overpowered as well.. And we wont go into summoner mages ><
a lot of you are misguided fools :p. Orcs are THE best melee. Tyrants DESTROY archers. And archers are EASILY the best over mages when it comes to mass PvP. With buffs mages don't do [censored] for damage, just accept it because its the truth. Properly buffed and with Health SA Orcs have 16k+ in HP+CP. Properly buffed mages will only do 800 damage a nuke. now figuring out proper buffs isn't that difficult. Most people know their enemy and know what kinds of nukers they have the most of. And besides songs/dances last 2 min for a reason, so they can switch up when needed. Warding and the correct 'Guard' song/dance to a nuke cuts the damage in half, to many people ignore that. It sucks that melee need buffs to be efficient but they have all them buffs for a reason.
Tyrants do not "destroy" archers. They should win in a 1v1, but in real fights archers and mages own everything, including tyrants.
This game needs serious tweaking. NCSoft, tell me why the number of melee DD classes has been dropping fast for the past 3 chronicles and the number of ranged DD classes is growing at an equal rate, or more?
a lot of you are misguided fools :p. Orcs are THE best melee. Tyrants DESTROY archers. And archers are EASILY the best over mages when it comes to mass PvP. With buffs mages don't do shiit for damage, just accept it because its the truth. Properly buffed and with Health SA Orcs have 16k+ in HP+CP. Properly buffed mages will only do 800 damage a nuke. now figuring out proper buffs isn't that difficult. Most people know their enemy and know what kinds of nukers they have the most of. And besides songs/dances last 2 min for a reason, so they can switch up when needed. Warding and the correct 'Guard' song/dance to a nuke cuts the damage in half, to many people ignore that. It sucks that melee need buffs to be efficient but they have all them buffs for a reason.
Remind me to purchase another 3 accounts so I can level up an elder, bladedancer and swordsinger to follow me around because I know I won't be able to pull them out of the mage and archer parties since they'll still be more effective.
The game is broken and no amount of melodrama on your part is going to change that fact. I don't understand why you continue to defend something that is so obviously broken with complete disregard for the way the game actually plays.
I think the largest problem is that NCSoft probably doesn't care. I think it would help if someone that spoke Korean could check their forums to see if their native playerbase (the one that counts) has a problem with this or if they accept it.
don't get me wrong, ranged are overpowered but people make them out to be Gods and that melee can't do anything. Do I expect a Destroyer to kill a mage by himself? [censored] no. But they do stand a chance when played correctly and set up and buffed correctly. I HAVE beat nukers, I HAVE been in melee groups that wiped out scores of mages and nukers, you can mostly thank the OL that rooted them all though and silenced many :). If you don't think Tyrants can destroyer arcehrs then I feel sorry you have never been in the presence of a talented Tyrant. With Rabbit they can run up to a archer (rabbit adds speed and evasion, arrows miss a lot), cripple him, stun him, switch to another totem (like Puma for example), lay some beat down, stun and charge when they need for specials, and beat down some more. Then when they have below 60% HP (or whatever it is) they bust out Bison Totem which SIGNIFICANTLY increases patk and crit rate. Tyrants have the best DPS of any class except maybe a mage. I have been at raids where a party of Gladiators, Tyrants, and Destroyers (with buffs of course which includes BD and SwS) outdamaged nukers. And we had a Necro keep Gloom on the boss for Christ's sake.
Now I do look at C4 and if things turn out as bad as people make them out to be, which I truly doubt, then I am quitting as will many I'm sure.
don't get me wrong, ranged are overpowered but people make them out to be Gods and that melee can't do anything. Do I expect a Destroyer to kill a mage by himself? [censored] no. But they do stand a chance when played correctly and set up and buffed correctly. I HAVE beat nukers, I HAVE been in melee groups that wiped out scores of mages and nukers, you can mostly thank the OL that rooted them all though and silenced many :). If you don't think Tyrants can destroyer arcehrs then I feel sorry you have never been in the presence of a talented Tyrant. With Rabbit they can run up to a archer (rabbit adds speed and evasion, arrows miss a lot), cripple him, stun him, switch to another totem (like Puma for example), lay some beat down, stun and charge when they need for specials, and beat down some more. Then when they have below 60% HP (or whatever it is) they bust out Bison Totem which SIGNIFICANTLY increases patk and crit rate. Tyrants have the best DPS of any class except maybe a mage. I have been at raids where a party of Gladiators, Tyrants, and Destroyers (with buffs of course which includes BD and SwS) outdamaged nukers. And we had a Necro keep Gloom on the boss for Christ's sake.
Now I do look at C4 and if things turn out as bad as people make them out to be, which I truly doubt, then I am quitting as will many I'm sure.
Tyrants actually seem to be one of the few melee classes that aren't completely hopeless but that's due to their extreme flexibility, reliable damage, high movement speed and the fact that all of their skills apply to their primary weapon (claws).
They have a respectable HP/CP and do a significant amount of reliable front-loaded damage. They attack fast enough that they can disrupt BSPS'd/acumen SA/acumen regular/armor SA'd casts as well. They still suffer from the whole charge/discharge mechanic for some of their skills and that could be cleared up but overall they're a very good class.
yea but many Tyrants get a stun off and then recharge. Also aren't there focus stones you can buy that are instant?
Stones can take you to Charge Level 2.
That's approximately a lvl 44 charge if they get their charges at the same rate as gladiators. At lvl 72, my gladiator on test has 7 charges and must do at least 5 with his skill (2 can be from stones).
Charges aren't great because you either have to do it before the fight begins (and then you get to discharge it once) or if you try to do it during a fight you're losing valuable time and would probably just do more damage swinging then using the special.
I agree there ARE great armors for melee like Tallum heavy and NM light but the bonuses on robes are just insane. Not all the robes need to have [censored] casting speed bonus, its ridiculous seriously. Change Tallum heavy to +25% attack speed and then we're talking. Also they need to up the mdef bonus on NM light.
As far as archers I don't understand this obsession with Majestic, its not even that good, not even close to being worth its price. I'd probably got Tallum Heavy as a HE, they are beasts with Tallum Heavy. But for nuker robes its almost a no brainer, the bonuses on DC robes are just insane
DC robe is so IMBA.. It makes mages faster than some melee (gladiator for instance) on top of all goodies. Btw diff between DC robe and Talium light on SE is like 65 def at lvl 77... W/o figuring any enchant (that would close the gap even further)
Which are useless since you can't get close enough to use them in most, if not all, PVP situations. Even if you do, why bother? A nuker has the same HP/CP of daggers and they do MORE damage than dagger specials, land all the time, and can crit for 5k+ damage?
Who in their right mind would want to play a dagger DD over a nuker DD? No one with any knowledge of PVP.
Well I didnt read it all, but here is one fact.
Archers crit 2/3 for 3000-3500 damage on most targets especialy soft ones.
Spellhowlers currently crit like 1/17 fully buffed for about 3500-4000 damage on people with warding and normally without debuffs they hit for 900 when other party has buffs including warding...
Now tell me whos doing more damage and whos overpowered. The way i see it, it takes me much longer to kill a hawkeye than it does for them to kill me. They not only do more damage but they also have a ton more CP and HP than I do. And lastly the more important thing to note is if i get crit twice or hit once then crit on by the hawkeye i cant even get a heal, even in the rare case the nuker party has a bishop in it. But while i am hitting the archer he has enough hp/cp to get healed easily.
HOW DOES NC SOFT FIX THE ALLREADY OVERPOWERED NESS OF ARCHERS; THEY GIVE THEM A BOW WITH FOCCUS AND NEW WARLOCK BUFFS.
Notice i said spellhowlers, not mages... I know the sorc and sps bling bling aura spell which i am gimped out of getting makes them slightly overpowered as well.. And we wont go into summoner mages ><
EcronyteIDC: It's quite easy to see, in fact you know all healers but EE have always got boot's the latest chronicles in fact EE was the most popular class in Korea... see WAS.
Also summoners was never popular there thats why they got boosted like crazy.
Same for a few other classes. Thats how it works there, non popular classes get boosted the others does not.
<---- TK ... never popular ... I wonder when the class is gonna be deleted from the game XD
Amazing how big this thread has gotten and how many similar threads have been made as of late regarding the balance between range and melee. This should tell Ncsoft something, but I doubt they are truly willing to take some of these suggestions and apply them to the game. If you take alook at the Bugs section on the forum, you will see that the list hasn't been updated since 9/28/05. The bugs listed there are still on-going. Why? Because NA Ncsoft lacks a development team to fix bugs. So we have to wait until XX months later to receive a new chronicle to fix them. So what does this tell you? If they can't fix a small bug like taking fall damage while swiming into the cata/necro how will they ever be able to implement a big change like balancing melee vs range. They wont, they can't. The suggestion forum is only a dream, after my two years of playing this game I have yet to see anything in that section make it into the game.
Until Ncsoft improves their interaction with the community then threads like this are completely meaningless, unless you enjoy voicing a suggestion that will never be heard or taken serious by Nc. One can only wish they were like ANet(Gw team) who actively participates on the forums to hear suggestions and search for imbalances and bugs. Perhaps Ncsoft should take pointers from them?
After playing endless hours on the C4 PTS it has to be painfully obvious to everyone that melee characters are even worse in C4 than they were in prelude, C1, C2, and C3. Here's why.
C4 specific problems:
-1-
Pets and summons can use SS. If you havnn't seen pets and summons in action with full BD/SWS/Summon buffs and SS, you are in for a huge surprise. They move faster than melee classes, they have as much or more HP and their patk is at least double that of the strongest melee character. So not only are melee classess inferior to archers and nukers, but now their summons and pets are stronger than a main class.
-2-
Drakonic Bow with Focus SA. No need to mention how broken this thing is.
-3-
L76+ melee skills are pathetic. With the exception of Magical Mirror, all the other good top melee skills are only useful vs other melees. Not exatly what I'd call evening the playing field here.
-4-
Magic Crit dance. Like mages needed a higher chance to crit even more. As if getting hit in every combat for 4000 damage wasn't enough, now you'll suffer more mage crits in combat, and the increase is huge.
-5-
Hamstring shot. Each archer starts off with this on one melee and it's game over. Enough said.
-6-
Zerk adds 8-9 speed. G/L catching casters and archers now. Get zerk on your melee character?? Sure, subtract 150 mdef from yourself so nukers can drop you in 2 less shots, or anchor, slow, root you without trouble.
Existing problems before C4:
-A-
Closing to melee range is nearly impossible in this game with slow melee classes, slowing skills landing often on melees, archers being the fastest classes in the game, and ranged attacks of 900.
-B-
A melee lucky enough to close the gap has to deal with the game mechanics only allowing a melee attack to make a siwng or two before having to chase the target around forever while you "autofollow" them.
-C-
Damage from bows and nukes is at least higher than even the best melee special. I think we all know that a bow crit does about 4x as much damage as the best melee crit and it has a 900 range. Bow weapons have double the patk of melee weapons. This is ridiculous.
-D-
Set bonuses are made specifically for archers and nukers. Majestic leather and DC robes are the two most broken sets in this game. Try and find a set that screams "oooh great melee armor set". They don't exist.
-E-
Stun in this game used to at least allow the melee class that was lucky enough to close the range to stun his enemy for a second or two. Now, with the super high stun resist of Majestic you can forget about it. Need I mention the very high land rate of archer stun shot?? Ranged stun attack too? Come on. Strip this from archers and give it to Warlords or TKs or something else useless.
-F-
Dagger nerf. At one point there was one feared melee class and it was the dagger. Not anymore. How many daggers can you name that left the game or rerolled? I can name a lot. Now all melees are equally poor in PVP, bascially useless compared to a archer or nuker.
-G-
Mage tattoos. All 3 of the dyes applied by mages has ZERO negative affects on PVP. Here's what they add: +4 WIT, +4 INT, +4 CON. -8 MEN, -4 STR. Slightly lower mdef and tons more HP, cast speed, and matk.
Conclusions
It has to be obvious to everyone that no one cares about or even plays melee characters anymore. They are just terrible in PVP, and this is why almost all subclassed DDs are nukers or archers. I play on a high pop server and can't name one melee subclass DD. I can name about 200 nuker or archer subclasses though.
There are countless problems and something radical needs to be done and soon. 4 Chronicles of weaker and weaker melee classes is making them all but extinct.
You are completely right my friend, but like NCsoft has allready proofen in the last 2 years, they dont patch during a chronicle and they dont care about the wishes of players / customers as long as they pay the fee. This could be a great game, but NCsoft is much to ignorant.
re: Summons
Summons have pitiful critical chance, and can not hit mobile targets. By mobile, I mean walking, crippled, overgeared, underwater orc mystics. If it moves, it's a no hit. They're vulnerable to things like fear, too. The only worry is that they can nuke and have the HP to back it up.
There are other summoner weaknesses that NCSoft refuses to class as exploits although they obviously are, but since they have, fortunately, not become too well known to the public, I'll rest my case here.
The stats make servitors look much, much stronger than they are.
re: Summons
Summons have pitiful critical chance, and can not hit mobile targets. By mobile, I mean walking, crippled, overgeared, underwater orc mystics. If it moves, it's a no hit. They're vulnerable to things like fear, too.
You jst described EXACTLY what every melee class goes through when trying to attack a target that isn't standing still. Not only do melee DDs have to close the range to attack, but they also have to put up with this screwball game anomoly.
Another big problem in this game that favors the high-damaging ranged DDs over the low damaging melee DDs is the extra damage buffs and bonuses this game offers.
A and S grade weapons with an SA add extra damage to PVP in the form of a % increase. This favors the classes that have super high patk (archers) and super high matk (nukers), much more than they affect melee DD classes that don't have high patk even with all +STR builds. Why don't A and S grade full armor sets give a defensive bonus to PVP? This wouldnt affect PVE.
Noblesse in C4 do more damage in PVP. Why don't noblesse take less damage in PVP based on a % similar to the increase in damage done for being a noblesse? Again, these changes improve the already overpowered range DD classes and barely do anything for the bad melee DD classes.
Buffs. Almost all new buffs in C4 add some % of extra offense, and adding a percentage means those with higher base patk or matk (archers and nukers) get more out of it than those with low values (melee DD classes). Where are new buffs to increase the defensive abilities (padef, mdef) by a percentage? This would favor the stout classes more than the all offense classes. The only new ones I can think of in C4 are the extra HP from CoV and PoF. Only 2 defensive buffs? Not good.
My dream is this with normal LvL 56 Prophet buffs :P
SK should have 1.500-2.500 P.Atk, 1.000-1.500 Atk.speed, 1.500-2.000 P.Def and 2.000-2.500 M.Def.....
And of course all my "nukes" should have a range of 950
There is nothing wrong with MM for daggers matter in fact they should have just kept it in the game because anyways its coming back right now as skills for PW/AW and TH get critical shot(like MM for 15 secs and chance of insta kill). Anyways MM was powerful because of all the other combinations. The reason why is because specials were not affected by pdef. Now that they are thats all the dagger nerf should have been is lower the damage the blow does. The land rate well if they toned it to 70 to 80 percent that would have been fine. But they had gone way overboard with it by making daggers land rate 40 to 50 percent. Although it doesn't matter now because MM is being brought back anyways so you can see they made a dumb mistake to remove it in the first place.