Controversial Post(yet again)

After reading a number of thread about bots, ebay and economy, I found some funny posts from people who claimed to be veteran MMORPG'ers.

Example:

To be honest as well, i never even knew that ebaying could be possible when i played my other MMORPG, i learned about it a month ago when i first played Lineage, everybody was talkin about it !

source: click me (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=497916&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1)

Anyway, I was shocked to see that statement coming from someone who said he/she played other MMO's.

I myself have been playing MMO's for about a year or so. I've played a number of em(in chronological order :p) AO, EQ, SWG, Runescape, CoH, WoW and ofcourse L2. I wouldn't use ebay or things like that cause it's Stupid to trade RL currency for Ingame.

Now, thinking way way back, like 3-4 years ago, where I never even touched any MMO's, back when EQ(1) was THE game to play, I knew about Ebay. I knew people would buy items for EQ for insane prices, Gold and Platinum, etc. That was about 3-4 years ago. Now remember what I said, I only been playing MMO's for about a year, maybe 1.5 years, but that's pushing it. So from today's date, count back about a year, and maybe a few months or so, and you get my very 1st time I logged on to any MMO, which was EQ(1) .

Then I played AO for a while, guess what, they also have IGE services for AO - That's Anarchy Online for those who may not know it.

Then I played Starwars Galaxies. Same thing. Need credits? Ebay/google it and you'll have it.

City of heroes/villans - Influence(CoH's currency type) or Infamy(CoV's currency type), Powerleveling, Account selling, etc. All there. On Ebay.

Hell, to think about it,Each and Every Single one of the Games I ever played that I listed there above, have services on Ebay or other websites.

So I guess I'm puzzled how someone who played other MMO's, came to realization about Ebay once they started playing Lineage 2.

Oh and before I forget, the Mac Daddy of all the games(this one I have not played, nor have any Intentions to play), is:

Drum roll pls......

Project Entropia.

Any of you guys hear of this one? :p

In this game, you are encouraged to give your credit card and you make instant transfers of RL money to Gold, INGAME. :p

Don't believe me, check it out. In that game, it's nearly Impossible for a newbie to start off the ground. Most people usually start with 10 dollars of real money transfered to the game and then they go from there either try to make money all in game, or by using their CC/Paypal much more frequently. I know this, because several of my RL friends and coworkers play Entropia.

Lineage's Economy is NOT bad. It's good, and it's half of the game. Only reason Lineage 2 gets bad rep is because there are no Instanced Zones, hence all the bots are out in the fields where every one can see them.

In closing, After I played all those games, however short, or long it was, Lineage 2 is by far the best of em all.

/ Flame on (or at least share your thoughts)

Playing a game where paying rl money is a must not a cheat? Hahaha, who eve plays such a game must be the silliest person alive.

Because that whole game will be designed for one thing: Making you pay them for the gear you should earn playing the game.

I agree with you in the point that the current system that is used for most MMOs (aquire necessary wealth by grinding) will never allow to reduce the secondary market to an acceptable size.

From there you have two options... either try to hide the farming and cheating as much as possible from those who do not accept it (see WoW, or even better EQ2), or change the game design so "ebaying" is not that attractive anymore. The most important product going into that direction would be GuildWars.

L2 does neither of the two, and also it's economy is one of the most ebay-encouraging out there. The results are horrific, as we can see ingame every day.

The rest of your post is cheap boasting. :p

Cal

The rest of your post is cheap boasting. :p

Boasting? Lol, out of all possibilities, I didn't and couldn't see that coming. Hehe.

I wasn't trying to argue L2 economy, bots, etc.
I only wanted to show that all games that are popular have something out for em on Ebay.

I just checked right now, and surprised myself a 2nd time(1st time being the Boasting comment :p ) and that Diablo 2 is still going strong, and even has auctions on ebay. Who would have though that a game what 7 years old or so still have Ebay transactions. =)

I agree with you in the point that the current system that is used for most MMOs (aquire necessary wealth by grinding) will never allow to reduce the secondary market to an acceptable size.

From there you have two options... either try to hide the farming and cheating as much as possible from those who do not accept it (see WoW, or even better EQ2), or change the game design so "ebaying" is not that attractive anymore. The most important product going into that direction would be GuildWars.

L2 does neither of the two, and also it's economy is one of the most ebay-encouraging out there. The results are horrific, as we can see ingame every day.

The rest of your post is cheap boasting. :p

Cal

But Lineage II is good because of what it is. It's designed to have you work for what you achieve and promotes conflict all of the way there. It's a well designed world and there is nothing quite comparable to it on the market today. If L2 was changed to be a game that counters ebaying or prevents farming then I for one wouldn't be here and I'm sure it's the same for others.

I'm not saying they would change it, of course they wouldn't, but the principle of creating a game to avoid ebaying occuring will often land that game being unappealing to a great deal of people.

Also it doesn't matter how easy the game is, or how little gear matters, people will still buy ingame currency and ingame items. If anything has a value, no matter how remote, to someone in a game then someone else is going to try and exploit that value for real life money.

Agreed.

I myself find Guild wars totally unattractive. :p
And I will not play a game which officially supports a secondary market itself.

Oh the dilemma...

Cal

The rest of your post is cheap boasting. :p

Cal

OK, I'm sorry, maybe you read in between the lines better than I do, but you're going to have to point out to me what exactly he was boasting about in his post. He was just describing the games he played, how on earth can you call that boasting?

Anyway, I know of several games that call themselves "free" and make all their money from selling in-game items for RL cash. No matter how good the game looks, I never want to play a game like that. Even though L2 has a secondary market, I still think it's more fair than a game where the entire economy is based on RL money.

Agreed.

I myself find Guild wars totally unattractive. :p
And I will not play a game which officially supports a secondary market itself.

Oh the dilemma...

Cal

even GW has 2ndary market. you'll know what i'm talking about once you check out that superior rune of valor (the one that boost hp, forget the name :P)

IMO, it's too late for ANY gaming company to stop 2ndary market now. if Blizzard and SOE failed to stop the first person who put that soj/plat on ebay back when it was just a side revenue for ppl who played too much, there is no way game companies can take down multimillion dollar companies like ige.

On the one hand, it's arguable that playing a game that has a monthly fee is silly.

I think it's interesting the approach that some games take of legitimizing RL$ trade, I guess starting with Ultima Online.

I can see that would eliminate a lot of problems (farmers, scams).

To tell you the truth, I have played many MMORPG's as well, and hadn't heard of ebaying until after I played this game. I was shocked to hear that someone I had known had actually payed money for some in game adena.

Personally I think that is very dumb, and would never even think about doing it, even if I dropped my weapon somewhere. If you don't look for it, becuase I never really thought anyone would be so stupid to do this, you never really find out aboutit. This game on other hand , people are alot more open that they do this, so I guess you finally hear about it.

I personally think the best fix for it would be to cave like some other games. Put an NPC in towns that sell adena, and charge directly to your monthly fee. If your going to buy adena, you will find a way. This would move the farmers to a new game, due to their funds being dried up, as well as giving the DEV's at NC Soft more $ to spend on game development. Everyone is happy :)

I would guess that the whole Ebay phenomenon started when people started quitting games(before MMOs, back in the dark ages of MUDs). People put time and effort into characters, and when they finally quit, they sold off characters to recoup a bit of thier investment(not me..7 years at $30/mo for a text based game the character died with my interest in the game). Sure, people sold off gear/money, but it was never a big business, it was mostly people selling thier stuff to friends. What I did witness a lot in my time, was the stay at home mom/father using the game they played to fill in the boring times, using scripts(bot programs for text based games) to have characters running constantly and selling off the money they made. I did it myself for a while. It took me a month of work to afford a trip to Vegas(This was before Lineage, I've never sold a single adena here, I need all I have and more). I wouldnt be surprised to learn that the major companies nowadays were founded by people that did this themselves for extra cash back in the early days of internet gaming.

Is it wrong? From a cultural point of view, no, it has become an acceptable way of making a living, and in terms of just playing the game. Morally? Peoples moral standards in general are so low these days that I suspect most dont find it morally wrong. But it IS against the rules, and playing by the rules DOES matter to some of us, though I doubt the number is as high as I'd like it to be.

From what I understand of Entropia, you put money in, but you take money out also. It is run like a business it seems like.

What people like you tend to overlook is the fact that it's not only a moral problem... that rule is in place for a reason after all.

I bet if the devs could choose between "no ebay" and noobs saying "Eeek, brig helm for 4 mil, I quit this stupid time-waster!"... ya you get what I'm saying.

The secondary market heavily unbalances the ingame market. That's why it should not be allowed. Not because you might hurt your co-players moral feelings.

Cal

What people like you tend to overlook is the fact that it's not only a moral problem... that rule is in place for a reason after all.

I bet if the devs could choose between "no ebay" and noobs saying "Eeek, brig helm for 4 mil, I quit this stupid time-waster!"... ya you get what I'm saying.

The secondary market heavily unbalances the ingame market. That's why it should not be allowed. Not because you might hurt your co-players moral feelings.

Cal

Brig helm market is a very poor example. The reason its an issue is because the majority of the server has outleveled the mobs that drop the unique materials for a brig helm. I can tell you exactly which mob you want to hunt and would be willing to do it myself but I don't have a character in that level range to take advantage of the market.

The fact that they don't allow higher level characters to get drops off of signiciantly lower level mobs creates a barrier to solving these in game problems. If they removed the penalty and I could hunt the bugbears easily with my main, I would hunt them often enough that I made a significant profit and it would drop the price of helms as others started doing the same.

The developers actually developed the entire game with real life money to game money transactions in mind. Its a way of life in Korea.

The brig market is a poor example hm... blue wolf tunic (I hardly see anyone farming for it despite level range), majestic helmet (it's rare but without ebay it would not be THAT expensive), do I need to go on?

The second paragraph is just moot. Ever heared of people playing alts?

The third is just a cheap excuse. Probably you are right, but why don't we have a secondary market built in? Also I heared there is no such severe farmer problem in Korea, so probably they didn't have the Western model "in mind"?

Cal

Lineage II has a very complex and beautiful economy. But it does take a lot of grind to get your chars to a stage where you can savour some of the most attractive features in the game (having good ecquipment included). This inevitably generates demand for game currency by "other means". I doubt any amount of contempt we dish on e-bayers will quell this demand.

On the other hand, "production" of in-game currency by farmer companies is relatively cheap. Your cost is paying subscriptions to NCsoft for the toons you use to farm adena, paying an ISP,updating your hardware and the labour of the farmers who control them. Having your toons play 24 hours a day will more than cover the subscription costs. As far as human labour is conserned, farming in all MMRPGs is mainly based on the labour of individuals residing in some asian countries, where a "respectable income" evaluated in USD is about 1/20 of what would be so considered in NA.

Now imagine a 12 hour farming shift. If they were to pay me my usual paycheck (i live in greece btw) to run the shift, the adena production would cost too much to resell to the gaming community. If they are to pay someone a tenth of what i make per month for the same job, you have your average farming cost that more or less means that by doubling one's subscription fee (spending as much on in-game currency) will guarantee a very comfortable game for that individual. If however your farmer can run BOT trains and control 18 toons on one PC, then the cost of producing adena will drop so much that you may:
1. Sell adena very cheap and hence make a large market.
2. Cover the cost of items dropped by your bots by ppl who train them with a vengeance.
3. Cover the cost of a portion of your accounts being banned by NCsoft.