I am reading that if a party member dies in C4, loot rights go to to clan or party first or something? Ok......so then how are the players gonna hit the farmers where it counts?(their pockets) Players have such little power to deal with farmers as it is. Now we are looking at a crippling blow to what we can do about the problems that we all see.
I know some wanna-be will call this a "bot" thread but it is intended to draw attention to have this new feature changed. If you erase this MOD's then you are only proving that censorship is greater than the problem at hand. Please for all that is right change this feature quickly.
even if it is untrue, the upside would be, if a red party member dies, and has not done the sin eater (like they should), they have a very increased chance to keep their dropped gear - very nice. but yeah, bad for griefing "automated players".
I went red plenty of times on pts and even dropped items once.... the enemy snatched them up with the quickness.
Just to be sure... what patchnotes are you talking about? Link?
When a non-chaotic PC dies and drops an item, that PC's party members or clan members have priority for picking the item up for 15 seconds. (The time for item routing after the drop is 2 ~ 15 seconds, and for when a chaotic characters drops an item, no routing priority is used.)
I went red plenty of times on pts and even dropped items once.... the enemy snatched them up with the quickness.
Just to be sure... what patchnotes are you talking about? Link?
When a non-chaotic PC dies and drops an item, that PC's party members or clan members have priority for picking the item up for 15 seconds. (The time for item routing after the drop is 2 ~ 15 seconds, and for when a chaotic characters drops an item, no routing priority is used.)
If this is indeed the case we have to remember that the developers aren't thinking "god.. we can't implement this because "a certain type of 'player'" can't be trained.
They are thinking that if you die you get a chance to keep your loot with the presumption that you trust the people you are partying with.
This is more to discourage people training other people with the hopes of gaining their gear. Being that the korean's dont have much of a farmer problem, I doubt the development team had much though with regards to the farmer situation we have here and how we deal with them. But, thats ok...a dead farmer is still a dead farmer, just means when I get trained I have a pretty decent chance of getting my gear.
Where does this idea that there aren't farmers/bots in Korea come from? Maybe its a recent thing, but back when I lived there I would routinely walk into some of the local PC cafes and there would be a good number of the computers botting away at several different games, L2 included.
Personally, I'd love to see anyone come up with a "silver bullet" for anything in this game that punishes farmers without punishing players.
I'm a casual player --- I think -- and rather then make a profit off of training farmers - I would rather give me own party priority in picking me stuff up. LIKE A PET COLLAR FOR INSTANCE.
Of course if we wanted to punish farmers then it would require me to give up that freedom of having party members pick stuff up first.
So now it's a question of if I would like to save meself, or punish the farmers.
'sides, in most cases where you train a party of bots, you kill the ENTIRE party. if all of them are dead, they can't pick up their fallen items. in the cases where all of them don't die, more than 15 seconds is bound to pass before it is safe to approach them anyway, and the survivors would have picked up the gear by then.
eh, actually, the biggest value here to the normal player is not trains, anyway. it helps more with raid bosses, that way those vultures who hang around waiting for someone to die and drop something so they can run and snatch and log off now have to wait 15 seconds, which should be more than long enough for a party member to grab it first.
This same applies to regular party wiped by mobs, or train soloing member - hard to get to clannie within 15 seconds to pick his/her equip.
But good to have, as it was said previously it's gfreat for raid and events. Pickup while you caaaaan! :)
When is the time you saw a high level farmer solo botting, never. The next to die will always pick up the the items as soon as it hits the ground. If you manage to kill the whole farmer party the only drops to expect would be from the last to die. Auto pick-up is fairly common on the farmers.
As for raid bosses well i guess then if someone comes in your raid that shouldn't be there pk him. I went red on a raid doing the tiger king in Anghel Waterfalls for someone just refusing to leave while we did the raid. Ask once if they dont, tell them, if they dont pk um problem solved.
it saves when a grp gets trained but it hurts soloers with there out of party buffers immencley and it protectds farmers ... this is retarted nc soft you mist remove this rule or kill walker for good
Really I would rather compromise for keeping my gear instead of training a bot for new gear. This will also dicourage high level trainers training low level legit players.
Really though, most bots will either ALL die, or they won't even pick up the item.
Really I would rather compromise for keeping my gear instead of training a bot for new gear. This will also dicourage high level trainers training low level legit players.
Really though, most bots will either ALL die, or they won't even pick up the item.
OMG! you are so uninformed about bots picking up items...I want you to try a little experiment....drop your gaiters near a bot party and see how fast they pick it up.
When is the time you saw a high level farmer solo botting, never. The next to die will always pick up the the items as soon as it hits the ground. If you manage to kill the whole farmer party the only drops to expect would be from the last to die. Auto pick-up is fairly common on the farmers.
So what? I am sick of griefers using this as an excuse "oh, we need this tool to fight farmers, therefor we can train all players".
Training is FAR too profitable, and it does more damage than thousands of bots.
I have never met anyone that uses that as an excuse to make it fine to do. It also makes no sense what-so-ever. This thread is for blocking the 15 second feature giving the farmers security in their botting activities. Stop forum trolling and trying to misdirect this thread.
They might not use that exuse, but there is alot of training going on that affects legit players, and with the AoE nerf it's probably gonna be even more common.
since i dont like being trained and lose something special to me by some random person, id love to see this pickup priority.
if you wanna train bots, find a way for them not being able to pickup the drops... kill them faster :p ive seen bot trains die in under 4 seconds with a good enough pull, and if they would have pickup priority over fighting i would just flood their hunting spot with 1a a million times and they would be picking up [censored] instead of fighting
In my 2 years of play only twice have I ever seen where this new rule would come into effect. Both times were at Raids where someone died and some ****** stole thier gear before their party could pick it up.
On the other hand, I've seen at least 20 times a bot party get trained and ganked by me standing there spamming pickup.
So I myself would be more than happy to continue on with the way things have always been on this rule.
True enough though, we will just have to adapt to the rule change and find ways to make it work. Either that or there's going to be floods and floods of bot petitions.
I have never met anyone that uses that as an excuse to make it fine to do. It also makes no sense what-so-ever. This thread is for blocking the 15 second feature giving the farmers security in their botting activities. Stop forum trolling and trying to misdirect this thread.
I'm unsure if it gives profarmer bots security or not. Generally they're set only to pick up items that the mob they just killed drops, to prevent themselves from getting derailed by long trails of 1a piles. At the very least, they'll have to improve their scripts once again to make use of the feature (to distinguish between items a party member dropped versus wooden arrows dropped by others).
I've been trained many many times. Frequently people who bring trains claim to be bot hunting, not that they ever ask if you're using a bot or not. Mostly it's just griefing, and it's nearly every day in Branded and the d-grade cats/necrops. There's the annoyance factor and the very real risk of losing gear, which is a gamebreaker for a lot of people.
As such, regardless whatever purpose you think this thread serves, I think it's on topic to say "Yes, this is a good thing."
I guess it depends on the setting of the bot train, but it's been my experience that you had better be standing there spamming pickup when they die or you're not likely to get their drops.
I've been trained before also. But again, how often have you dropped an item and had the trainer steal it because your group mates were just a hair late in hitting pickup?
I guess it depends on the setting of the bot train, but it's been my experience that you had better be standing there spamming pickup when they die or you're not likely to get their drops.
I've been trained before also. But again, how often have you dropped an item and had the trainer steal it because your group mates were just a hair late in hitting pickup?
For some people all it takes is once to ruin the game.
Training shouldn't be a valid way of making money. Its just the redistribution of wealth and you're still making adena off of the farmers' time. You're just not paying them for it but you're still benefiting from their existence all the same. Its not like the farmers are hurting for adena and can't replace their gear.
This rule benefits the legitimate players and I'm glad they're putting it in. Its about time they threw the legitimate players a bone for hanging on as long as they have.
I guess it depends on the setting of the bot train, but it's been my experience that you had better be standing there spamming pickup when they die or you're not likely to get their drops.
I've been trained before also. But again, how often have you dropped an item and had the trainer steal it because your group mates were just a hair late in hitting pickup?
For some people all it takes is once to ruin the game.
Training shouldn't be a valid way of making money. Its just the redistribution of wealth and you're still making adena off of the farmers' time. You're just not paying them for it but you're still benefiting from their existence all the same. Its not like the farmers are hurting for adena and can't replace their gear.
This rule benefits the legitimate players and I'm glad they're putting it in. Its about time they threw the legitimate players a bone for hanging on as long as they have.
So you want this rule because you're afraid this might some day happen? That's a poor reason to make a rule.
The fact is that this isn't likely to have any affect whatsoever on people being trained, and it's going to have even less of an impact on people being trained who are most likely to lose gear from it.
Take a moderately high level clan group. We get trained, we all know what to do to keep from dying and/or avoid being trained all together, but in the event the train does land on us, we all know what to do to keep from losing gear. I've been trained quite a few times on accident and on purpose, never once has a member of my party lost a piece of gear from it.
On the other hand, maybe we have a party of newer players or a pickup group that doesn't really know how to avoid a train or what to do when they do get trained. Guess what? The new rule isn't likely to help these guys anyhow, since they only have 15 seconds to grab that piece of dropped gear, and the chances are if they don't know how to handle a train to begin with they aren't likely to pickup that lost gear within the 15 seconds anyhow.
What does it come down too? The rule is going to have almost no impact for the real players, but for the bot parties it will be a significant help.
Training bots is definitely benefiting off of their existence, but if everyone did it enough, it would eat to thier profits to the point that they would go away since if it ain't profitable, why do it. The way this rule works, the eating into their profits is going to pretty much go out the window.
As I said before. This rule is going to affect maybe 10% of the real player base, but probably way way less.
So tell us Torg, how many times in your L2 Career have you been trained and had the trainer snatch your gear before your group mates could get to it? (Keep in mind that they would have to get to it within 15 seconds for this rule to be of any use.)
Take a moderately high level clan group. We get trained, we all know what to do to keep from dying and/or avoid being trained all together, but in the event the train does land on us, we all know what to do to keep from losing gear.
In my experience this is not true.
How many times does someone ask to borrow a regular SOE while hunting. Do you think these people have BSOE?
One time my party was trained in AL, and I barely had time to BSOE. As I materialize in Giran, the EE asks, in chat, if she should use Party Return. We all had a good laugh at that. I think she just released to town after that.
You're not harming the farmers in any significant fashion. You don't want the farming problem to go away you profit more from them then the people buying their adena do.
You're just trying to protect your source of income regardless of the impacts on other players.
You seem to think that the new players that aren't able to handle trains don't know how to work the pickup key? Everytime I've been in a group and someone dropped something they immediately started shouting in party chat to grab their stuff.
As for my personal experience? I've dropped gear but never due to a train. As far as parties I've been in.. I saw it happen twice in Cruma and working on Fettered Souls.
I can't believe that you're in favor of harming legitimate players just so you can continue to benefit from botting.
Take a moderately high level clan group. We get trained, we all know what to do to keep from dying and/or avoid being trained all together, but in the event the train does land on us, we all know what to do to keep from losing gear.
In my experience this is not true.
How many times does someone ask to borrow a regular SOE while hunting. Do you think these people have BSOE?
One time my party was trained in AL, and I barely had time to BSOE. As I materialize in Giran, the EE asks, in chat, if she should use Party Return. We all had a good laugh at that. I think she just released to town after that.
There's alot more ways to deal with a train than BSOEing. ;)
You're not harming the farmers in any significant fashion. You don't want the farming problem to go away you profit more from them then the people buying their adena do.
You're just trying to protect your source of income regardless of the impacts on other players.
You seem to think that the new players that aren't able to handle trains don't know how to work the pickup key? Everytime I've been in a group and someone dropped something they immediately started shouting in party chat to grab their stuff.
As for my personal experience? I've dropped gear but never due to a train. As far as parties I've been in.. I saw it happen twice in Cruma and working on Fettered Souls.
I can't believe that you're in favor of harming legitimate players just so you can continue to benefit from botting.
I'm saying it has almost no impact on legit players at all. I've given it some more thought, and definitely only twice have I ever seen a time in 2 years of playing that this would come into affect.
You say you have heard of three times, but never experienced it first hand where this rule may have had any affect.
However I can say that dozens of times I have seen where it would protect the scumbags who are ruining our game, and the company can't/won't do anything about it.
You accuse me of trying to protect a profit source, but I say we are losing one of the few ways we have of taking the fight to the farmers. They are in it solely for the money, anything you do to reduce the amount of cash they make is a step in the right direction.
I can't believe you are trying to protect the botting scum under the facade of helping real players.
You're not harming the farmers in any significant fashion. You don't want the farming problem to go away you profit more from them then the people buying their adena do.
You're just trying to protect your source of income regardless of the impacts on other players.
You seem to think that the new players that aren't able to handle trains don't know how to work the pickup key? Everytime I've been in a group and someone dropped something they immediately started shouting in party chat to grab their stuff.
As for my personal experience? I've dropped gear but never due to a train. As far as parties I've been in.. I saw it happen twice in Cruma and working on Fettered Souls.
I can't believe that you're in favor of harming legitimate players just so you can continue to benefit from botting.
I'm saying it has almost no impact on legit players at all. I've given it some more thought, and definitely only twice have I ever seen a time in 2 years of playing that this would come into affect.
You say you have heard of three times, but never experienced it first hand where this rule may have had any affect.
However I can say that dozens of times I have seen where it would protect the scumbags who are ruining our game, and the company can't/won't do anything about it.
You accuse me of trying to protect a profit source, but I say we are losing one of the few ways we have of taking the fight to the farmers. They are in it solely for the money, anything you do to reduce the amount of cash they make is a step in the right direction.
I can't believe you are trying to protect the botting scum under the facade of helping real players.
If you really wanted to do something about it you'd just make a twinked out perma-red. People want to train for the drops not because they want to help the community.
You're not harming the farmers in any significant fashion. You don't want the farming problem to go away you profit more from them then the people buying their adena do.
You're just trying to protect your source of income regardless of the impacts on other players.
how the hell is it not going to hurt there proffit when theay drop a stack of 2k varnish or a set of full plate or any b grade gear ?
yes i **** well want to protect my sourse of income but this is no help to players and the ones who it does help are the lower levels becouse if you get trained in dvc or saints its not a level 5o doing it most likeley the person will be in a clan or allinace and if he takes the gear you will be able to presure his leaders or even war over it. this is a pro bot rule
Pk'ing bots only helps them delevel to farm longer. How many time you think you can pk them before they bring in someone to kill the red. Dying on a perma-red is more costly to you in drops and only helping them yet again. As for training to help the community i can say i do. I have trained in dwarfland for months now almost once a week. I bring my spoils to gludin or other starter towns to find new or rerolled toon that need help with ng and d grade. I have given away countless bronze sets and brig parts to those that have wooden sets at mid 20 or mixed sets because they could afford it.
Until the day the farmers are gone we must have some way to take something back for economy ruining items pumped into the market. Training sometime is risky and puts your character in harms way. If you train to get rid of professional farmers in an area you need to hunt or would like to, should you not be rewarded if you are able to kill them?
I for one would not be happy relying on reporting them only as i know how unreliable that is. I know it takes NcSoft alot of time and money to keep banning but it also takes time for us to constantly report them. We should be rewarded in some way for helping them do their jobs and enforcing the EULA.
The farmers can sell hundreds of millions of adena and not even notice. They can afford to replace whatever you take. They receive a large chunk of the adena that they sell back through their sell shops. They control the entire economy.
All you're doing is benefiting from their presence. You might claim that you're doing it for the good of the server but in reality you're just taking kickbacks. The only way to really stop them is to change the way the game functions and that is entirely out of the players' control.
So you can claim righteousness all you want but this is a true benefit to the legitimate players and harms those that benefit from the bots presence.
If you were really doing it for righteous causes you would just delete anything you received from a farmer anyway. If you need a real world example its the equivalent of stealing from a counterfeiter and then spending the counterfeit money but claiming righteousness because you shut the counterfeiter down.
I do what little I can, and if everyone did what I do then the bots and farmers would be gone within a month.
If you don't want bots and farmers, take action, fight them, train them, make their life hell, steal their stuff, and do what you can to run them off.
It's obvious at this point that NCSoft isn't going to do [censored] about the problem, as with all things, they are leaving it up to us. Well, they're leaving it up to us, but removing part of our incentive. It's alright though, we'll make it work, it will just take a little more effort is all.
The farmers can sell hundreds of millions of adena and not even notice. They can afford to replace whatever you take. They receive a large chunk of the adena that they sell back through their sell shops. They control the entire economy.
All you're doing is benefiting from their presence. You might claim that you're doing it for the good of the server but in reality you're just taking kickbacks. The only way to really stop them is to change the way the game functions and that is entirely out of the players' control.
So you can claim righteousness all you want but this is a true benefit to the legitimate players and harms those that benefit from the bots presence.
If you were really doing it for righteous causes you would just delete anything you received from a farmer anyway. If you need a real world example its the equivalent of stealing from a counterfeiter and then spending the counterfeit money but claiming righteousness because you shut the counterfeiter down.
"farmers" can yes but the farmers are factionalized so you are hurting some ones bottom line this is a cost vs expense what hurts more lose of time hunting or lose of time hunting + gear ? if every one trained farmers it would severely hamper there bottom line. think about it this way there’s a car dealership selling cars cheaper then you so you go smash in his windows every night he’s eventually going t have to raise there prices and that would kick more business to you. no one ever said it was right or moral but it works the more time the more gear the more mats you keep away from the farmers the more control we take back of our servers.
if any one on bartz reambers the week long fight we had with farmers in dvc back in c2 you could watch the price of adena go up then eventually they just stopped having any stock that’s what we need to do
it takes one *** to stop 9 farmers imagine if we had 1 to 1 there would be no farmer problem it just wouldn’t be profitable
"farmers" can yes but the farmers are factionalized so you are hurting some ones bottom line this is a cost vs expense what hurts more lose of time hunting or lose of time hunting + gear ? if every one trained farmers it would severely hamper there bottom line. think about it this way there’s a car dealership selling cars cheaper then you so you go smash in his windows every night he’s eventually going t have to raise there prices and that would kick more business to you. no one ever said it was right or moral but it works the more time the more gear the more mats you keep away from the farmers the more control we take back of our servers.
if any one on bartz reambers the week long fight we had with farmers in dvc back in c2 you could watch the price of adena go up then eventually they just stopped having any stock that’s what we need to do
it takes one *** to stop 9 farmers imagine if we had 1 to 1 there would be no farmer problem it just wouldn’t be profitable
/Rant
According to your example you'd be a rival adena seller.
Its the equivalent of stealing stolen products and selling them yourself. You can't really put a dent into the farmer racket because there are far too many of them and they can continue to go while you sleep. If every single player made it their goal to eradicate farmers the entire game would grind to a halt. All of the in game material prices would go sky high and you'd basically ruin the entire economy.
If you really want to get rid of farmers, argue for increased material/item drop rates and no drop penalties for dark blue mobs.
As it stands you're just taking a cut of the action for yourself and in all likelihood increasing the number of farmers in game. How are you doing this? If the farmers fail to meet their quotas and need greater income then I'm sure they're going to just buy more accounts to keep up with demand.
I still think that this helps legitimate players and that the complaints are just upset because they're losing a source of income.
According to your example you'd be a rival adena seller.
Its the equivalent of stealing stolen products and selling them yourself. You can't really put a dent into the farmer racket because there are far too many of them and they can continue to go while you sleep. If every single player made it their goal to eradicate farmers the entire game would grind to a halt. All of the in game material prices would go sky high and you'd basically ruin the entire economy.
If you really want to get rid of farmers, argue for increased material/item drop rates and no drop penalties for dark blue mobs.
As it stands you're just taking a cut of the action for yourself and in all likelihood increasing the number of farmers in game. How are you doing this? If the farmers fail to meet their quotas and need greater income then I'm sure they're going to just buy more accounts to keep up with demand.
I still think that this helps legitimate players and that the complaints are just upset because they're losing a source of income.
No but im some one whos is fighting the farmers for the mat market among other things.
I know killing them is pointless but the drops is the key you train for drops not to kill farmers
And yes its selling stolen products no one said it was moral! But it works it is anti profit to them theay are a business make it cost too much to get the adena and they will stop selling
As for increasing the numbers of farmers in the game GOOD! Loss of 5 mil in adena revenue + new game box + 15 a month is more anti profit that brings down the profit margin even closer you need o train them less now!
And **** straight im taking a cut but as it stands people buy adena and end up handing it right back to the farmers this way they will hopefully hand a share to me that way its out of the farmers cycle
If you think about farmers adena is not there key the key is the drops sure the adena is needed they sell you the adena witch you in turn trade to a alt of there’s for there drops so by you taking drops out if the equation it creates a imbalance in there system because it siphons off adena from there system theay need to get more characters farming adena all of this hurts there bottom line tremendously.
You're not harming the farmers in any significant fashion. You don't want the farming problem to go away you profit more from them then the people buying their adena do.
You're just trying to protect your source of income regardless of the impacts on other players.
how the hell is it not going to hurt there proffit when theay drop a stack of 2k varnish or a set of full plate or any b grade gear ?
It doesn't hurt the profarmer profit because their profit isn't in adena or mats (like ours is), their profit is in dollars and yuan.
I've not dropped to a trainer ever. I've been trained lots. I've been trained and stunned and stung til I died.
I have dropped and never got back a tunic and an earring at a raid (w/ griefers).
Only thing that hurts farmers is training them - consistently.
If you hadn't noticed, the chattier farmers will often (in the midst of cussing you out and attempting to kill you - something they'll often do after you train them I might add) tell you to petition them.
They don't care about being petitioned.
They do care about having to lose their daily profit, day after day, however.