Now, before anyone starts flaming me for the following post, let me say, I play a SE... And I love her... However, I feel there are a few improvements that can be made to the class.
1. SE's only receive light and robe mastery skills... Why is this a problem you say?? It is virtually impossible for us to solo anything at higher lvls that will give you decent xp without you dying a million times in the process. Wearing robes excludes any chance you have of taking any sort of damage, yet the mp loss from wearing light armor makes it impossible to buff a complete group effectively. Why not make our CON a little higher or give us some sort of reflect damage buff other than VR..
2. SE's are buffers and really not much else, yes we get heals, but not nearly the extent that bishops or prophets do. Yet, our skills cost exorbitant amounts of SP, and since I already pointed out in it is virtually impossible to solo. Why not make our skills cost less, or make the group bonuses better when you have an SE in your party??
3. SE's don't get sufficient damage skills. Disrupt undead is last upgraded at lvl 35, and prior to that we really only get wind strike and ice bolt, which goes away long before that. Give us something to work with that will make us more effective in parties where there may only be 1-2 people who deal out damage.
4. Yes, we get sleep and root, if they land. Most of the time it takes 2-3 times to cast to get it to land.. And with the upcoming C4 changes, I will be unable to sleep and root 3-4 mobs, kill one and resleep and root the remaining before it actually runs out. Make it impossible for us to crowd control effectively either.
I guess that is all I can think right now at the top of my head.. Any and all suggestions are welcomed.
At lvl 48 I got my first greater heals with a max power of 398
A lvl 48 Bishop gets greater heals with a max power of 514, PLUS they get hold skills against certain mobs much greater than mine.
Also at lvl 52, I have many skills that cost 110k sp each. A bishop of comparable lvl, has a few skills that cost 95k sp..
Meaning that I have to choose, between either buffs or heals.. Would you want to be in a party with an SE at those lvls saying, sorry guys, I can't heal you cause it cost too much sp to purchase my major class skills for this lvl? I don't think so.
SEs are hybrid Healer and buffer therefore they are best in neither catagory. There are the extremes where Bishop=THE healer and WC/Prophet=THE buffer. SE and EE are hybrids. SE gets the offense buffs and Group Heals and EE gets the defense buffs and second best rez. Not only that but EE and SE have things that help mystic classes like Wild Magic and Mana Transfer thing. In fact many people would argue that SE are the best healer in the game because of Empower, Vamperic Rage, and Mana Transfer. Personally I'm still all about the Bishop but I'm typically in melee parties these days
SE are just fine, with VR they are the best PVE Healer Class, since you wont have to heal that much like a Bishop will have to.
I would prefer to improve the Elven Elder and The Bishop/Prophet bit more instead of a Shilien Elder which is already good for almost every party type.
If you want crowd control in a party, get an OL or a necro.. This is not the SE job to do (otherwise your sleep woulda been upgraded after 40).
I played an SE as well. It's not a solo class, nor is a prophet, bishop or EE. SE has way better heals than prophet (prophet gets no heal upgrades at all after 2nd CC), the only heal a bishop has, that a SE hasn't, is greater group heal. And SE buffs leaves the EE behind in tears..
SE is excellent for small parties to both heal and buff. If you have a bigger party, get either an extra healer or a buffer and pick your role. :)
If you want crowd control in a party, get an OL or a necro.. This is not the SE job to do (otherwise your sleep woulda been upgraded after 40).
I played an SE as well. It's not a solo class, nor is a prophet, bishop or EE. SE has way better heals than prophet (prophet gets no heal upgrades at all after 2nd CC), the only heal a bishop has, that a SE hasn't, is greater group heal. And SE buffs leaves the EE behind in tears..
SE is excellent for small parties to both heal and buff. If you have a bigger party, get either an extra healer or a buffer and pick your role. :)
SEs have battle heal after 40? Thats news to me.
Outside of a mage party SEs are NOT the best healer. Bishops are. VR besides being overrated is also a skill that WCs have and high lvl BDs have.
EE buffs are good too. Evasion is nice, better shield block rate is nice, and shields defensive power being better is nice. With EE buffs I block almost every time and with advanced shield block the damage is almost halved from hits when i do block
First, SEs get greater group heal, but not greater battle heal. I'd like to have it, but I can live without.
I agree with you on the skill cost. I am far behind on windshackle and a little behind on robe masteries. - Those are the ones I sacrifice for buffs, heals, root and recharge. I've got the most important things, but it would be really cool to be able to get everything.
I think we should also get Might of Heaven. Both Bishops and Elven Elders get it (not sure if I've got the right skill name), so why not SEs? Because we get empower, and it would be too easy for us?
As for sleep and root, I don't think we get sleep after the second class change, but I can still make it land, occasionately, on mobs in blazing swamp. If I cast 3 times, it usually lands. Root, however, is a very powerful skill. When it doesn't land, it's a moment for me. If you have trouble getting it to land, you're probably using a weapon below your grade, or not using bsps (you get the money for the shot back after one mob, so no reason not to). But it would be wise to bring a dedicated sleeper in parties. But since you're 48 (right?), your sleep isn't so outdated yet, so it ought to land most of the time (with shots).
Our heal isn't as good as the Bishop's (but a hell of a lot better than the prophet's lol) - but since we *always* have empower, it's not *that* far behind, even though Bishes get % heal. But that's fair. They are the masters of The Art of Healing. SEs get more high level buffs than Bishops, so it's a trade off.
Guess that was a typo - it is greater battle heal which SEs do not get. They get greater heal and greater group heal :)
Outside of a mage party SEs are NOT the best healer. Bishops are. VR besides being overrated is also a skill that WCs have and high lvl BDs have.
Of course Bishops are best healer if you just look at the power of the heals (at high levels, bishops always have four levels higher heal skills, plus they get prayer which increases the hp healed). But apart from pvp (SE heals are too slow because of no greater battle heal), SEs are **** close and you can easily do your job as primary healer wherever your party wants to go. VR is not exactly overrated. Having VR on all melee DDs in the party means that they can heal THEMSELVES just by damaging mobs. That saves mp on the healer which can be put into other skills (e.g. recharges for nukers). Yes, Warcryers also get VR, and Bladedancers get a dance which acts like VR (although not as powerful as high lvl VR itself). But if you just compare Bishops and SE, it is only fair to say that SE has VR and Bishop does not. So a party with an SE will *always* have VR, even if you only have a prophet as buffer, while a group with a bishop has to look for somebody else to buff VR.
So SE is 2nd best in pure heal power (actually if not for prayer, SE heals would be VERY close to Bishop heals in power, even with four skill levels difference - but prayer adds like 100-150hp to the heals, so bishop clearly leads overall) and if you take the buffs into consideration, the SE is IMHO clearly a more versatile and useful class in PVE than the bishop. For PVP though, I would not want an SE in my party to heal me. SE is pretty useless there except for buffs. You cannot keep somebody alive who is getting aura flare spammed when you are an SE - the Bishop can.
EE buffs are good too. Evasion is nice, better shield block rate is nice, and shields defensive power being better is nice. With EE buffs I block almost every time and with advanced shield block the damage is almost halved from hits when i do block
Sure, EE defensive buffs are very good. When you need them. It really depends on the party you are in. Shield block rate is only interesting when you have somebody in party who actually tanks the mobs and has a shield. When all that happens is that the mobs only hit a player once every now and then before getting killed, or when the player who tanks is a BD (e.g. in a nuker party on toi 10), you do not need those buffs. I think it is a bit stupid that offensive buffs are so much more important in PVE in this game than the defensive ones.
Yeah it is. SE's are more suited for Nukers, and Prophets are more for Melees.
What does VR do for Nukers? Nothing or next to nothing when you can 1-2 hit?
Tell that to the NCSoft devs. The EE lvl 78 skill gives matk, casting speed, magic crit increase etc. And the lvl 78 SE skill gives attack speed, vr effect increase and crit rate/power increase when attacking from behind. Guess they definitely think that VR is a SE skill.
Yeah it is. SE's are more suited for Nukers, and Prophets are more for Melees.
What does VR do for Nukers? Nothing or next to nothing when you can 1-2 hit?
But I guess having Zerk and VR on 1 class maybe too powerful i guess.
I guess we shouldnt have gotten focus, death whisper and guidance either. and maybe not resist wind and mental aegis either, since they're defensive, and should have been given to the EE.
edit: by the way, dark elves get "vampiric" abilities, so this is why VR is suited for SEs.
edit again: what are prophets doing with acumen? that's not a melee buff.
I appreciate all the comments, both good and bad... It's nice to know that there are SE's out there that feel the same way I do.
I do realize that SE's are not made to solo, but even still, with no damage output buffs after lvl 35, it makes it even hard to duo. Whereas it seems the other "healer/buffer" classes can do that a little more easily.
I still feel however, that NCSoft can make it a bit easier for SE's to lvl in 2-3 member parties. EE's and Bishops get some sort of damage skill well into their 70's.. Yet for some reason SE's do not. Makes no sense to me at all. We do not get greater battle heal, which everyone knows in critical periods is sometimes very important... And we do not receive any sort of "oh shoot" button that handle things very easily.
But again, thank you for all of the comments, I realize that most game suggestions are not ever implemented, but I can still hope that somewhere down the line some of the irregularities can be fixed!
PS For the person that asked, I'm almost lvl 52... woot for b grade..
A few other things in general about SE's I'd like to point out or re-iterate.
1) An SE in a large party is either a buffer ot a healer (not both).
2) for pvp, an SE is best suited for special buffs to mage parties. although with the right setup we can deliver heals fairly quickly (thank god for the aura flare nerf in C4)
3) With Root, a) it depends on your level compared to the mob. b) check if the mob is root resistant.
4) No SE's aren't really meant to solo, thats true enough. But a light armour SE (doom light) with a bow (BOP maybe guidance or QR ftw) can solo on rootable mobs.
I agree with you on the skill cost. I am far behind on windshackle and a little behind on robe masteries. - Those are the ones I sacrifice for buffs, heals, root and recharge. I've got the most important things, but it would be really cool to be able to get everything.
5) You need to die more often MiseryLou :) SP SP SP
I do realize that SE's are not made to solo, but even still, with no damage output buffs after lvl 35, it makes it even hard to duo. Whereas it seems the other "healer/buffer" classes can do that a little more easily.
I still feel however, that NCSoft can make it a bit easier for SE's to lvl in 2-3 member parties. EE's and Bishops get some sort of damage skill well into their 70's.. Yet for some reason SE's do not.
Just curious, and pls don't take it the wrong way cause I'm surely not telling you how to play your class or spend your time in game, but wouldn't you as an SE get the best XP if you find a nuker who you can duo with?
My alt is a Spell Howler, and I'd love to have someone who plays an SE to duo with me ALL the time. All we'll need would be Empower, Recharge and WW. The SE could get a Bow and pull things with it so by the time I'm done killing a mob, 1 or 2 more are on their way. Especially in a very densely mob spawn area, levels would fly at warp speeds. :p
If you are referring tomight of heaven as the damage spell bishops and ee's get, its nothing spectacular. melees/nukers much rather duo with an se then a bishop/ee because of all important buffs exept haste (wich comes in pots) and mabye zerk.
A few other things in general about SE's I'd like to point out or re-iterate.
1) An SE in a large party is either a buffer ot a healer (not both).
2) for pvp, an SE is best suited for special buffs to mage parties. although with the right setup we can deliver heals fairly quickly (thank god for the aura flare nerf in C4)
3) With Root, a) it depends on your level compared to the mob. b) check if the mob is root resistant.
4) No SE's aren't really meant to solo, thats true enough. But a light armour SE (doom light) with a bow (BOP maybe guidance or QR ftw) can solo on rootable mobs.
I agree with you on the skill cost. I am far behind on windshackle and a little behind on robe masteries. - Those are the ones I sacrifice for buffs, heals, root and recharge. I've got the most important things, but it would be really cool to be able to get everything.
5) You need to die more often MiseryLou :) SP SP SP
In response:
1) try telling that to a majority of players... There is a huge misconception that simply because an SE has both buffs and heals that our MP can support a large party. And as such SE's usually get stuck in parties unable to do much of anything.
2) I agree, some things about C4 will be great...
3) Yes root should land a majority of the time, but sometimes it doesn't, and then most SE's get to run around like a scared little girl, cause if we get hit or even critted on we're down to sometimes 1/4 health.
4) Yeah light armor can be good, but who has the adena in this game to purchase both robes and light armor?? Cause I sure as heck don't want to go into a 4-5 person party in light armor unless there is another healer, and then refer to #1.
5) Dying shouldn't always be the option to getting more SP, if I die, usually my whole party dies... That's not the way it should work.
If you are referring tomight of heaven as the damage spell bishops and ee's get, its nothing spectacular. melees/nukers much rather duo with an se then a bishop/ee because of all important buffs exept haste (wich comes in pots) and mabye zerk.
To be honest, it doesn't matter to me what the damage skill is, but give SE's something... Bishops get skills to both undead and non-undead mobs at higher lvls. Yeah, their "make the mob not want to fight" doesn't always land, but heck it would be something.. SE's get nothing of the sort, no dmg skills, no higher Disrupt Undead, and absolutely no dmg skills after lvl 35.. That seems insane to me.
Yeah it is. SE's are more suited for Nukers, and Prophets are more for Melees.
What does VR do for Nukers? Nothing or next to nothing when you can 1-2 hit?
But I guess having Zerk and VR on 1 class maybe too powerful i guess.
Actually....Prophets are best buffers for archers because they usually do not get hit by the mobs...
A WC is BEST for melee because VR helps the healer a lot.
If you are referring tomight of heaven as the damage spell bishops and ee's get, its nothing spectacular. melees/nukers much rather duo with an se then a bishop/ee because of all important buffs exept haste (wich comes in pots) and mabye zerk.
To be honest, it doesn't matter to me what the damage skill is, but give SE's something... Bishops get skills to both undead and non-undead mobs at higher lvls. Yeah, their "make the mob not want to fight" doesn't always land, but heck it would be something.. SE's get nothing of the sort, no dmg skills, no higher Disrupt Undead, and absolutely no dmg skills after lvl 35.. That seems insane to me.
I've been wishing for Hurricane Assault for a while now :p
@Needing to die more - no way in hell, lol. I'd rather buy SP scrolls. Hmm yes, I actually haven't even considered this. Perhaps! Then again, I need to save as much as I can for that pain in the *** expensive subclass quest.
Sure it can be frustrating at times not being able to solo on my SE, but somehow in the back of my head its kinda logic since that's not the intention of the class.
I've tried soloing with a BoP (on Doom Knights). Rooting them and then shooting. It was possible, but awfully slow ^^.
My experience of the EEs and Bishops undead nuke is that it's not very powerful and you drain your MP like mad. I don't see the trouble duoing as a SE, I think it's great. If with nuker, you don't really have to do much. If with melee, just load up some SS and start hitting. Sure you dont do awesome damage but every little bit helps.
And wasnt there some test done that showed that SEs and Bishops at lvl 74 pretty much heal for the same, +/- 20hp? Not counting Prayer tho.
i couldnt even get half my skills at lvl 58 so dont give me SP trouble.. as i was a few MILLION SP short. after sieges and pvp im finally able to get all my skills :p
anyway.. 1st of all healers dont solo.. 2nd.. i never go out in a big party unless we have a) 1 healer and 1 buffer -or- b) our clan warcryer supertank and a bd, the VR will do well enough to keep us alive, as will chant of life teehee
Yeah it is. SE's are more suited for Nukers, and Prophets are more for Melees.
What does VR do for Nukers? Nothing or next to nothing when you can 1-2 hit?
But I guess having Zerk and VR on 1 class maybe too powerful i guess.
Actually....Prophets are best buffers for archers because they usually do not get hit by the mobs...
A WC is BEST for melee because VR helps the healer a lot.
You forgot that Melee groups that have a healer and a warcryer shouldn't need to rest where mage/archer groups will eventually have downtime as they drain themselves of MP (which is when the single target buffers have a chance to refresh the party).
1) try telling that to a majority of players... There is a huge misconception that simply because an SE has both buffs and heals that our MP can support a large party. And as such SE's usually get stuck in parties unable to do much of anything.
I don't find this to be true. In large parties, there will inevitably be a prophet or warcrier to throw down most of the buffs the party requires. You'll only need to fill in with a few buffs per person. If you are regularly finding yourself in parties where you are the only buffer, you should get yourself a Homunkulus with the Conversion SA, the same weapon most prophets use to have enough mp for full buffs on a 9 person party. I rarely use my Homunkulus with Conversion for normal PvE. I got it mostly for raids.
2) I agree, some things about C4 will be great...
Yes! I can finally ditch my Homunkulus with Acumen and start using the Valhalla I crafted a while back. Already have the soul crystal and gems needed to add Acumen :)
3) Yes root should land a majority of the time, but sometimes it doesn't, and then most SE's get to run around like a scared little girl, cause if we get hit or even critted on we're down to sometimes 1/4 health.
Honestly, this hasn't been an issue for me... I regularly root the root-resistant mobs in Disciples on the first cast. And, I've been doing that since they were red. You are buffing yourself with Empower and using blessed shots, right?
4) Yeah light armor can be good, but who has the adena in this game to purchase both robes and light armor?? Cause I sure as heck don't want to go into a 4-5 person party in light armor unless there is another healer, and then refer to #1.
Light armor is awesome. I crafted a blue wolf leather armor set a while back from mats and recipes I had laying around in my dwarf's wharehouse. I've been using this set as my primary armor set ever since. I haven't had any issues with mp management (I actually regen mp faster now due to the +3 MEN) and the extra pdef is nice. I will go back to robes when I can finally finish crafting my majestic robe set. The set bonus on majestic is too good to pass up. If I ever have enough spare cash, I'll try crafting a Dark Crystal leather armor set too. It looks hot on DEs and has a nice set bonus for adding some extra damage in parties :)
5) Dying shouldn't always be the option to getting more SP, if I die, usually my whole party dies... That's not the way it should work.
I don't die a huge amount, but as you get higher in levels, you will have more sp to spend when you get a new set of upgrades. However, if you don't, its not a huge deal. Get the important stuff first. About half the upgrades at each level aren't that important. I always grab the buffs, heals, and recharges first (in order of priority).
1. With light and duals a SE can solo somewhat, but it is a class meant to be exped in parties/duos. Get a polegroup and you'll get mad exp. Or duo with a nuker and recharge them.
2. Party up, dont solo. SP will flow.
3. SE is a buffer/healer hybrid, not a damage dealer, why should it have more damage skills? All those disrupt undead etc are crap anyway. If you do 2-3 man parties, get light armor and duals and buff yourself with melee buffs too. Adds a quite bit more dmg than someone doing ice bolt/wind bolt/disrupt undead.
4. Root lands just fine, use bsps and empower. Sleep...well thats not your main job even.
SEs are the dream partner for pole duos. They go really well with bigger polegroups too since VR= no need to heal so much.
VR is perhaps the skill that makes a SE so popular amongst melees. Hell, give a destroyer VR and other melee buffs the SE can have and he doesnt need further healing. The VR is enough to keep the HP at max when fighting 1 mob at a time. And if you get ganged by more than one, no worries, once you drop them you can just go back to bashing 1 mob at a time and regen all the hp back. No need for healing. If I duo with a SE, he always has full MP after regening the MP used for initial buffs. The only thing he has to do is rebuff me when buffs run out and otherwise just follow me around and leech exp. VR = rocks. Now a WC has VR too, but there's more SEs around so easier to get one ;) VR+Vampiric dance from BD = insane life leech.
SE is good as it is, VR and Empower makes it really stand out.
At lvl 48 I got my first greater heals with a max power of 398
A lvl 48 Bishop gets greater heals with a max power of 514, PLUS they get hold skills against certain mobs much greater than mine.
Also at lvl 52, I have many skills that cost 110k sp each. A bishop of comparable lvl, has a few skills that cost 95k sp..
Meaning that I have to choose, between either buffs or heals.. Would you want to be in a party with an SE at those lvls saying, sorry guys, I can't heal you cause it cost too much sp to purchase my major class skills for this lvl? I don't think so.
Hi I am level 75 SE, I know what I am talking about.
SE is the most versatile healer in the game, which does make it the best PvE healer.
We have purify, recharge, greater heal, and can do the job of a prophet in a small party if everyone is willing to shell out for haste2 potions. Purify enables a group to hunt basically anywhere, where they might be unable to if they had an EE as their healer.
We also have empower+recharge which makes us able to duo with nukers, where an EE couldn't unless one of the two either had an SE buffpet or wanted to spend money on empower scrolls.
PvP is another story entirely. SE's are terrible in PvP. Slow cast speed + bad heals are a bad combination.
All your complaints show nothing more than a total lack of understanding about the game.
Bishops have no recharge, which makes them pretty much worthless for PvE, elven elders lack VR, empower and purify which limits who and where they can group. Both are exceptionally better PvP healers than an SE though.
se aren't great at healing in pvp... but god knows I wouldn't pvp without one... emp>all... also in sieges... regen is+++ u don't heal hp... but you deffinately have a place in pvp... and I for one am always glad when 1 is with me in pvp.
Well it's like what another healer said, there is no PVP without PVE. No bishop or EE is going to want to risk their exp when no one wants to party them for ++exp, not --- exp.
SE's IMO, have it made. Empower/recharge for mages. VR for melee, decent buffs. EE's and bishops have neither.
You're in EPOCH, of course you're going to get large groups. And of course you can afford to carry around 2 10m each weapons.
Being in Epoch has nothing to do with it. Being in a large alliance doesn't guarantee that you will have the best gear for your level. With the raid bosses being scarce, the full drops that people need being even more scarce, and being part of a large alliance with many members needing the same drops, it takes a very long time to get everyone equipped with the gear they need. This is where it helps to save every base mat drop you get. Those mats come in handy later when you need to upgrade your gear. I've crafted all of my B grade gear for 25% or less of the market price on the whole item because I didn't need to buy everything to craft.
The 2 Homunkulus swords I have now were in my possession long before my clan joined Epoch. The Homunkulus with Acumen was originally crafted as a Sword of Whispering Death back in C1 when I was playing a Spellsinger. The Blacksmith of Mammon helped me turn it into a Homunkulus. The Homunkulus with Conversion also started its life as a Sword of Whispering Death, but I purchased this one for just under 6mil. Both of the SAs were applied using crystals that a clan mate helped me level.
Also, if you note, I'm 74 and I stated I'm using Blue Wolf Leather armor (I was previously using Avadon robes). Since I can't afford to buy A grade gear directly, I'm working on crafting my Majestic Robe set. But, crafting failures and bad luck on the A grade quests are hindering my progress. My first A grade weapon will be what I get from the Fate's Whisper quest at 75. I'm sure my situation is smiliar to many others out there.
Despite using gear that is all below my current grade mastery level, I still do a darn fine job as an SE (if you believe even half the things people say about me :p ). I haven't had any issues being successful while playing my class. Yes, not having the skills to be an uber soloer sucks when you can't find a group. But, the SE is a support class. If you aren't out there supporting other players, you are not playing the class as it was intended and should not be surprised when you can't fill a role that other classes were designed to fill. Personally, I feel the Elven Elder needs more help from the devs before any consideration should be given to changing the Shillien Elder.
As far as party size, I spend a significant portion of my xp time in duos or small groups. There isn't always enough people on of the right levels to form a full party for everyone that needs a group. We make do with the players available at any given time. I think being flexible and participating in groups with many unusual mixes of classes has helped me be a better player overall.
You're in EPOCH, of course you're going to get large groups. And of course you can afford to carry around 2 10m each weapons.
So what you're saying is that your problem has nothing to do with your class, it has everything to do with your clan/ally and your inability to make money in the game...