"Warcryer- The born DD?" or "The Tragedy of Elves"

The alternative title should be "The Tragedy of Elven Fighters" but there wasn't enough space :)

Yesterday I finally got a confirmation for something that had been bothering me for quite some time about the balancing of fighter classes in L2.

When I switched from my main class Swordsinger to my Warcryer subclass it became obvious: The difference in P.Atk between the two classes using the same weapon they both had a mastery for was just too small.

Now my Swordsinger is lv 75 and has +4 STR from tattoos and a Tallum Heavy Set resulting in a total STR of 42.
My Warcryer is only lv 72 and has the same +4 STR from a tattoo and also uses that Tallum Heavy Set resulting in a total STR of 33.

Both classes have a mastery that works on swords (both one- and two-handed swords, I tested this while updating mastery skills long ago). Even though my SwS has 9 STR more than the WC, she only has about 5% P.Atk more with the same buffs!
This made me wonder, because +9 STR on the same class is supposed to be like 20-30% more P.Atk depending on the weapon type and the mastery a class has for that weapon type. So to further test this I de-equipped my Tallum Helm with the SwS to lower her STR to 40... and surprise! Now she had even less P.Atk than the WC.
Here are all the P.Atk values I checked with screenshots for proof:

The fist series are with a +12 Sword of Damaskus:

Swordsinger---(STR 42): Unbuffed: 670 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00181) / With Might 3: 758 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00171)
Swordsinger---(STR 40): Unbuffed: 629 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00182) / With Might 3: 711 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00172)
Warcryer------(STR 33): Unbuffed: 639 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00173) / With Might 3: 723 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00174)

To make sure it wasn't the weapon's "fault" I made a second test series with a +3 Great Sword:

Swordsinger---(STR 42): Unbuffed: 596 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00175) / With Might 3: 674 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00177)
Swordsinger---(STR 40): Unbuffed: 560 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00176) / With Might 3: 632 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00178)
Warcryer------(STR 33): Unbuffed: 568 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00179) / With Might 3: 642 P.Atk (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00180)

These P.Atk values, in my opinion, can only be explained in 2 ways:

<ul type="square"> Either Warcryers have a massive class/race bonus on P.Atk (or elves/Swordsingers have a massive P.Atk malus)
or
the General Weapon Mastery of Warcryers (on swords) is much better than the Sword Mastery of Swordsingers (on swords).
Whichever of the two it is, I am badly disappointed since all classes will have the same basic Accuracy, Critical, Attackspeed, Evasion, and Speed if they have the same DEX (passive skills that increase any of these stats exluded). DEX is the only stat where Elven Fighters are superior and they already have 6 physical stat points less than humans, orcs and dwarves.

Human Fighter:------STR 40 / DEX 30 / CON 43 // Total 113
Elven Fighter:-------STR 36 / DEX 35 / CON 36 // Total 107
Dark Elven fighter:---STR 41 / DEX 34 / CON 32 // Total 107
Orc Fighter:---------STR 40 / DEX 26 / CON 47 // Total 113
Dwarf:--------------STR 39 / DEX 29 / CON 45 // Total 113

Sorry if I'm posting common knowledge here, but I haven't seen any threads about this specific issue yet and I always thought all classes would have the same P.Atk under the same circumstances (same STR, weapon, mastery, lv and passive skills) like it is the case for DEX.
Just having the highest DEX might work well for Silver Rangers because they get tons of P.Atk from bow mastery anyway and because they can benefit from all the stats DEX affects and because they get all the great PvP bow skills... but all other Elven Fighter classes are simply inferior to corresponding human and DE classes... but that's probably another subject and should be discussed elsewhere.

Edit: I added some "evidence" for my assumption that all classes will have the same Accuracy, Critical, Attackspeed, Evasion and Movement Speed with the same DEX and the same passive skills (I must admit I was at least partially wrong):

If we compare the stats of a lv 40 Temple Knight and a lv 40 Paladin without equipment:

----------------------------------Accuracy---Critical---Atk.Spd.---Evasion---Speed
Lv 40 Temple Knight unbuffed: (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00008)-------75---------92-------435-------75-------143
Lv 40 Paladin unbuffed: (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00009)--------------72---------88-------416-------72-------126

I chose TK and PA because they have almost the same passive skills. The difference between the two classes is quite exactly what +5 DEX from tattoos would do (1 point of DEX adds about 0.5 Accuracy and Evasion, a bit less than 1% Base Crit - remember there's no effect on Focus SAs - about 1% Attackspeed, and about 1.5 Movement Speed) But there is one irregularity: Movement Speed! It seems that is the one or one of the values where elven fighters really shine ^^ They have about 10 more Speed than a human fighter with the same DEX would have.

*Calming down again* :)

It seems Warcryers just get a bonus on P.Atk after all, while elven fighters get a bonus on movement speed, and there are likely one or even several boni for each class/race that are hidden in the game mechanics and STR, DEX and CON don't tell us everything about a fighter stats ^^.
I apologize for claiming Lineage 2 was badly balanced and for causing all this rumpus &gt;&lt;

I might be totally off base here, but don't swordsingers stop getting weapon masteries after 40? That would result in less P.atk.

No, the two classes should be about equal in weapon masteries, as long as the swordsinger uses a sword.

I wonder if the patk difference results from different amounts of weapon mastery in the 1-19 and 20-39 ranges.

I might be totally off base here, but don't swordsingers stop getting weapon masteries after 40? That would result in less P.atk.

No SwS stop getting armor masteries but the sword/blunt masteries keep going. They actually account for 20% of our patk. But on the subject of the post it wouldn't surprise me if there are racial bonuses that aren't IN TEXT where everyone would know about them. This would make sense actually considering just how much more TKs block with their shield compared to other tanks even at the same DEX.

my bad. :)

Warcryers just have the generic weapon masteries.

With their own self-buffs, Warcryers are competitive with an actual fighter. SwS cant' give themselves might/shield so really shouldn't be compared directly to the warcryer. As you pointed out, with the buffs the SwS was better then the warcryer. How does the p.def look after songs? How about movement speed?

You should really compare the SwS with all of their songs up and the Warcryer with all of the buffs to one another to get a a more accurate picture of how the characters are balanced. As far as I've seen (correct me if I'm wrong on this) but the SwS is primarily defensive buffs.

All elf fighters get shield/might self-buffs.

In principle, the two classes should be similar, as they have similar support/dd roles. But honestly, I'm surprised how similar they are.

Warcryers just have the generic weapon masteries.

But checking out my old p.guide I saw to my surprise that those weapon masteries are as good as the specialist masteries from the swordsinger!

Still, this doesnt explain how a warcrier can have a higher patk using the same weapon and buffs but having a lower strength.

I personally don't care much for patk. The criticals are where SwS get the damage. Im a SwS and I have -6 STR from a -4STR tat and armor. I STILL pull aggro from people in groups. This goes for tanks, Destroyers, even archers at times. I don't mind orcs being as strong as they are because their critical rate sucks and so does their atk speed (except Tyrants obviously).

And its music to my ears that more people realize SwS sre defensive buffers. You have NO idea how stupid and ignorant people can be and ignore that fact :). In fact its so neglected that there are still people out there getting 3 shotted by nukers.

warcryers jsut flat out own in pvp :P

Just going to correct yeah a tiny lil bit

Dwarf:--------------STR 39 / DEX 29 / CON 45 // Total 113
(Dwarf got 29 DEX not 25 ) and with 25 as you wrote there total wuld have ben 109

Also all other mele classes but elf and dark elf have 57 mage related stats, INT, WIT, MEN

Dark elf and Elf have 63, aka 6 difference just as you wrote befor.

So in the end all fighter classes got the exact amonth of stat points, 170 to be exact. Whats on other hand extream unbalanced is all the skills not gonna comment on that.

Thanks for the correction, PleChan. I edited it in my post :)
Yes, it's probably better not to even start talking about Elven Fighter skills &gt;&lt;

Those p.attk numbers are without Soul Cry as well right?

They are totally unbuffed. Right after switching to subclass/mainclass. Some are with Might lvl 3 as I stated.

Just for twisted curiousity. Could you post the p.attk numbers while the warcryer has Soul Cry turned on? That should boost it significantly.

I don't really see a problem though because each class fills a similar function in the party. SwS and BD's have the additional benefits of all of their buffs stacking with all of the other buffers and their left over tank skills from their 20-40 days.

Here's a Screenshot (http://home.eblcom.ch/Stoll/Shot00183.jpg) with Might lv 3 and Soul Cry Lv 10.

The "problem" is solved for me now because I know Elven fighters have at least one unique class/race bonus that is not represented by any passive skills as well (namely +10 Movement Speed) ^^

The problem is that at equal strength, they should have equal PAtk given equal masteries.

According to the prima guide, the weapon mastery given to orcs adds 41.7 points to PAtk at level 56 (highest value represented there), while the next closes mastery level (at 58) for swordsingers adds 42.5 points - they should be equal, meaning the swordsinger should have more PAtk than the warcrier.

This is very weird, and an explanation would be most welcome. Does it have anything to do with the division into mystics and fighters?

ETA: The longer I think about it, the more I think that might be the case. Elves are disadvantaged because their strength is so low compared to that of humans, whereas orc mystics just push far above the strength of a human mystic. I would not be surprised if the 'humans are the middle' perspective had something to do with this.

I don't really see a problem though because each class fills a similar function in the party. SwS and BD's have the additional benefits of all of their buffs stacking with all of the other buffers and their left over tank skills from their 20-40 days.

I dont think he's questioning the role each has in a party. Nor do I see the real quesion here as being whether or not this makes WC or SWS better or worse at what they do.

The point is, are there passives that give different race/class 'es boosts in certain stats that arent talked about?

Elf fighter: 3 levels of weapon mastery prior to 20.
Sword/blunt mastery starts as a knight, continues up thru SwS.

Orc mystic: 2 levels of weapon mastery prior to 20, up to 9 while d-grade shaman, then continuing thru warcrier.

SwS sword/blunt is about the same number of skills as warcrier gets regular weapon mastery. So adding the sword/blunt with general weapon mastery, the SwS should be getting boosted from 3-4 masteries more than a similar level warcrier.

Obviously, based on the screenies, there's less bang for the buck of sword/blunt than there is with general weapon mastery.

OP. Both characters are fully trained up on skills?

I wonder if the general masteries stack w/ sword/blunt.

OP. Both characters are fully trained up on skills?

Both classes have the highest lv of Sword Mastery/Weapon Mastery they can learn.

Swordsinger---(STR 42): Unbuffed: 670 P.Atk
Warcryer------(STR 33): Unbuffed: 639 P.Atk

Swordsinger---(STR 42): Unbuffed: 596 P.Atk
Warcryer------(STR 33): Unbuffed: 568 P.Atk

As you can see, the problem does not lie with the masteries - the difference with the Damascus is 39 points, with the Great Sword it's 28. If the difference was based solely on masteries, they should be equal.

They are both differences of about 5% though, implying that the STR stat has something to do with it.

Swordsinger---(STR 42): Unbuffed: 670 P.Atk
Warcryer------(STR 33): Unbuffed: 639 P.Atk

Swordsinger---(STR 42): Unbuffed: 596 P.Atk
Warcryer------(STR 33): Unbuffed: 568 P.Atk

As you can see, the problem does not lie with the masteries - the difference with the Damascus is 39 points, with the Great Sword it's 28. If the difference was based solely on masteries, they should be equal.

They are both differences of about 5% though, implying that the STR stat has something to do with it.



Good eye. It's 31 vs 28, though.

Basically, all melee classes end up with about the same patk, generically buffed. It's the other stats that define these class' abilities. The warcryer's party buffing. A Swordsinger's songs. A tank's pdef. A tyrant's versatility. Even a human mystic with a good weapon and +str will have decent patk. It's how small xp parties work; everyone has to be able to attack. The only classes with noticably different patk are...yep! Archers! But that's a different topic entirely. ;)

Basically, all melee classes end up with about the same patk, generically buffed. It's the other stats that define these class' abilities. The warcryer's party buffing. A Swordsinger's songs. A tank's pdef. A tyrant's versatility. Even a human mystic with a good weapon and +str will have decent patk. It's how small xp parties work; everyone has to be able to attack. The only classes with noticably different patk are...yep! Archers! But that's a different topic entirely. ;)

What exactly does this have to do with anything we are talking about here?

I dont think anyone here is questioning what a sws does in a party...or a tyrant, tank, etc....

Glav, You state the problem at hand in the first line of your post without blinking.

wyzeguy, It seems we've found the reason I fail all my maths tests. :( Thanks for spotting that.

I dont think he's questioning the role each has in a party. Nor do I see the real quesion here as being whether or not this makes WC or SWS better or worse at what they do.

The point is, are there passives that give different race/class 'es boosts in certain stats that arent talked about?

If I remember correctly, in 'The Great Rebalancing' (I think it was C2) each races stat effects were compared to the Humans and their effects were based on how high or low they were in comparison.

In a further breakdown, it was also shown that because of this, each class/race gets slightly different bonuses to the effects of each stat depending on their base value. Example: Elven Mages recieve a greater bonus for +WIT than Orc Mages and vice versa for the MEN stat. (Ignoring for now the huge imbalance in how much WIT gives versus MEN)

Knowing this, the difference between the Warcryer and Swordsinger isn't too hard to reason out.

A Human Fighter has a base 40 STR and the Human Mage 22 STR

A Elf Fighter has a base 36 STR and the Orc mage 27 STR


Thus the Elf fighter has a lower STR mod to Patk and a lower Bonus for each additional point of STR. (-4 penalty vs base fighter stats)

In contrast the Orc mage has a Big STR mod to Patk and a bigger bonus per each additional point of STR. (+5 bonus vs base Mage stats.)

Glav, You state the problem at hand in the first line of your post without blinking.

I don't see this as a problem at all. I see this as a necessity. Every support character in a party can participate in damage dealing by about the same amount at the same levels. Instead, it's the other skills that make them more powerful, like the powerful strikes a destroyer can make and the critical power and chance passives (and active skills) that a dagger brings. For these support classes, it's not their patk that is important, their unique abilities.

Basically, all melee classes end up with about the same patk, generically buffed.

Glav, You state the problem at hand in the first line of your post without blinking.

I don't see this as a problem at all. I see this as a necessity.

Glav, you kind of missed the topic at hand. Maline's previous post might put you back on target:

The problem is that at equal strength, they should have equal PAtk given equal masteries.

You may have missed the key issue that brought that topic up: a Swordsinger with 40Str has less PAtk than a Warcrier with 33Str, if both have the same buffs, use the same weapon...even though the SwS has 48 trained Masteries and the WC has 40.

In other words, an elf with more training and higher stats still does less damage than an orc, which caused the OP to conclude that all melee classes do not end up with about the same patk, generically buffed.

That's why your statement sounded so "out there" to the people who replied to you. You were stating "X is true" when the premise of the thread was "X is not true". :o

That's why your statement sounded so "out there" to the people who replied to you. You were stating "X is true" when the premise of the thread was "X is not true". :o

That is because SWS gets tank weapon masteries. Tanks get more pdef from armor masteries and less patt from weapon masteries than DD's.

Pain, you said it much better than me, but that's what I meant. :D

I agree in so far that Warcryers have a better general modifier for STR on P.Atk than Swordsingers. But this in my opinion has nothing to do with how much STR you add to the base STR by tattoos or sets: Both the WC and the SwS get quite exactly the same percentage added to P.Atk for getting an additional point of STR.

SwS (STR 40): 629 P.Atk -&gt; SwS (STR 42): 670 P.Atk (= +~6.5%)
WrC (STR 31): 597 P.Atk -&gt; WrC (STR 33): 639 P.Atk (= +~7.0%)

(All stats are totally unbuffed.)

The small difference beween 6.5% and 7% can be explained by weapon masteries not being affected by additional STR. But this difference will never explain, in my opinion, why a WrC has so much P.Atk compared to a SwS.

I personally believe the formula for P.Atk is something like this:

STR multiplied with x multiplied with buff modifiers (Might, Dance of Warrior, Zerk, and so on) + Weapon Mastery (or Masteries for Destroyers with two-handed swords) = P.Atk

x here would be the general STR modifier that depends solely on race/class. This x is much better for Warcryers than it is for Swordsingers as I see it. I guess what really upset me when I first noticed this is the fact that STR in C3 affects abolutely nothing but P.Atk and yet it has so little meaning if you don't know the race/class modifier.

If I remember correctly, in 'The Great Rebalancing' (I think it was C2) each races stat effects were compared to the Humans and their effects were based on how high or low they were in comparison.

I'd like to see where this is was stated. I dont remember reading that info.

Now that you mention it, I've heard this and assumed this to be true, but I haven't seen a source for it either.

If I remember correctly, in 'The Great Rebalancing' (I think it was C2) each races stat effects were compared to the Humans and their effects were based on how high or low they were in comparison.

I'd like to see where this is was stated. I dont remember reading that info.



If it did happen, it was long enough ago any traces will have been pruned from these forums. Perhaps there'd be echoes in writings on other sites(?)

It sort of happened. In actuality it was just a balancing of the fighter classes.

Documentation from the site (I'll provide a link and directions for those of you that want to look it up yourself.)

---
Increased influence of STR and CON for classes in which their main attributes were above that of the average (Human Warrior). This affected classes negatively below that ‘average’ so the following adjustments have been made.
The effectiveness of the "Weapon Mastery” skill has been enhanced. The P. Atk. of the Warrior class and Wizard class and the P. Atk. and M. Atk. of the Mystic class would get enhanced by a character’s acquisition of a skill. They have been further strengthened.
For the classes whose base CON value is less than 43, we have adjusted their maximum HP value so that their maximum HP will remain the same.
Based upon the lowest CON value, Dark Wizards (24), the carrying weight of those classes whose CON is greater has been greatly enhanced.
Although many adjustments were made no clue was negatively influenced by the reworking of these attributes, due to the previously listed balances.
----

Lineage II - In Development (http://www.lineage2.com/news/development.html#pm_top)

Then go to page 16 and under December 07, 2004 (Other) you'll find the section that I copied.

Maybe its just me, but who the hell comes up with the wording for this stuff!

Wouldnt this mean the SWS should have more p. atack then the WC based on the WC being a mystic class and the SWS being a tank class?

That's what this post is all about kutjr...

We're trying to figure out why the SwS, which should be stronger, is not.

That's what this post is all about kutjr...

We're trying to figure out why the SwS, which should be stronger, is not.

I realize that. This comment was made to supposedly suggest an answer:

Knowing this, the difference between the Warcryer and Swordsinger isn't too hard to reason out.

A Human Fighter has a base 40 STR and the Human Mage 22 STR

A Elf Fighter has a base 36 STR and the Orc mage 27 STR


Thus the Elf fighter has a lower STR mod to Patk and a lower Bonus for each additional point of STR. (-4 penalty vs base fighter stats)

In contrast the Orc mage has a Big STR mod to Patk and a bigger bonus per each additional point of STR. (+5 bonus vs base Mage stats.)

But I dont think thats what the patch notes say at all. At least not how I read them.

I think the patch notes actually suggest that the Warcryer gains more from the strength bonuses then the Swordsinger because the Swordsinger is closer to the the Human Fighter Average.

It wasn't really a great balancing around all of the stats. It was just a rebalance around the Human Fighter Strength and Con stat. I think the con rebalancing was to handle the updated weight system that they implemented back in C2.

I'd like to see where this is was stated. I dont remember reading that info.

Apparently, Mistryl had an issue with my original direct link, so here is the info I was referring to earlier.

The various effects each +/- on stats has for each race. (http://personalpages.tds.net/~painamplifier/stats_e.txt)

Again, like the top of the file says, this is old information and not 100% true anymore.

Well, reading that it sounds like they increased the effect of "Weapon Mastery," but there's no mention of specific masteries like Sword/Blunt.

So in effect the warcrier got a boost and the classes with specific masteries stayed the same. That may matter as much as the STR/CON tweak.

Melion you are completely correct in your assumption that elves have a lower p attack modifier from strength than orc mystics. If you think about it this only makes sense. Both classes essentially have to rely on physical attacks to grind, and since orc mystics have so many points invested in int/wit/men and therefore fewer points available for str/dex/con the devs had to make each point of orc mystic strength worth than a point in elf fighter strength as orc mystics had less free points to put into strength but still needed to be able to do a certain amount of physical damage.

You should also note that Elven mystics also have a low m attack modifier from int compared to dark elven mystics. A dark elf with the same weapon and int as a light elf will always have more m attack than the light elf. Unlike the warcrier verse swordsinger problem, this is pure NCSoft bias against light elves which is why spellhowlers, across the board, have more useful spells than spellsingers. The only spell type that spellsingers have which spellhowlers do not have and would want to have is frost wall.

Once upon a time cancellation and sleeping cloud used to be the envy of spellhowlers, and then they got nerfed into the ground with no suitable replacements given.

Melion you are completely correct in your assumption that elves have a lower p attack modifier from strength than orc mystics. If you think about it this only makes sense. Both classes essentially have to rely on physical attacks to grind, and since orc mystics have so many points invested in int/wit/men and therefore fewer points available for str/dex/con the devs had to make each point of orc mystic strength worth than a point in elf fighter strength as orc mystics had less free points to put into strength but still needed to be able to do a certain amount of physical damage.

You should also note that Elven mystics also have a low m attack modifier from int compared to dark elven mystics. A dark elf with the same weapon and int as a light elf will always have more m attack than the light elf. Unlike the warcrier verse swordsinger problem, this is pure NCSoft bias against light elves which is why spellhowlers, across the board, have more useful spells than spellsingers. The only spell type that spellsingers have which spellhowlers do not have and would want to have is frost wall.

Once upon a time cancellation and sleeping cloud used to be the envy of spellhowlers, and then they got nerfed into the ground with no suitable replacements given.

Did you roll a necro?

Melion you are completely correct in your assumption that elves have a lower p attack modifier from strength than orc mystics. If you think about it this only makes sense. Both classes essentially have to rely on physical attacks to grind, and since orc mystics have so many points invested in int/wit/men and therefore fewer points available for str/dex/con the devs had to make each point of orc mystic strength worth than a point in elf fighter strength as orc mystics had less free points to put into strength but still needed to be able to do a certain amount of physical damage.

You should also note that Elven mystics also have a low m attack modifier from int compared to dark elven mystics. A dark elf with the same weapon and int as a light elf will always have more m attack than the light elf. Unlike the warcrier verse swordsinger problem, this is pure NCSoft bias against light elves which is why spellhowlers, across the board, have more useful spells than spellsingers. The only spell type that spellsingers have which spellhowlers do not have and would want to have is frost wall.

Once upon a time cancellation and sleeping cloud used to be the envy of spellhowlers, and then they got nerfed into the ground with no suitable replacements given.

Not really sure how helpful is your answer in a 5 year old thread. Maybe it is.

Welcome back Ellisande ;)