I must be the world class worst PvP'er in the world. I just say it now before you do, although you can confirm this of course. :D
I tried to take my Archmage through her paces in the coliseum (killing some time before the chaos began). I got my big A weapon, got my B robes, got my B jewels, had plenty of bsps A. Gott freshly painted tattoos. I was ready to kick deriere and take names.
At the coliseum i did not find a friendly buffer to makwe me ubar of ubarst but I should be ok right?
First bout vs an archer. He happened to wear S grade gear and wiped me out of existence. Hurting me more then I him. it ended with me facing the ground. Ok no problem, archers are the nemesis of the nukers right?
Second try was a bladedancer. This was going to be an easy kill. I handicapped myself by trying to use aura flare to see if they nerfed this one. They did and I once more died. It didnt help that he refused to sleep when i told him so.
A dwarf then? Oh horror of horrors, I even failed to pwnerize them as was my right.
Nuker? same story here. I got silenced and it was game over.
It was not until later that I experienced proper buffs that almost doubled my matk and casting speed. Perhaps I would have fared better fully buffed. Of course very good gear would have helped as well, right now my gear was just the bare basics, nothing fancy.
Now I can't help but wonder. Did I lose because I am terrible at PvP? Or did I lose because without full buffs and uber gear the mage is not much better of then another player these days?
This post sounds like you went in intending to lose to prove a point and you lost and now you're expecting everyone to have an epiphany and congratulate you for proving that mages aren't overpowered.
The argument isn't about mages vs mages, mages vs archers or archers vs archers. The debate has been revolving around ranged damage dealers vs melee classes and how offense trumps defense in this system.
So it boils down to, if you can't compete with a mage or an archer you'd have done even worse with a melee.
Well actually as I never had played a mage this high level (I am one of those idiots who liked the idea of swordwielding maniacs when I started to play) I was curious how they would do in a fair fight.
I was surprised I lost. Not once but more then once. I am still convinced that ranged will own a melee anytime (well in my case almost anytime).
hm. sounds like you went in trying to take down someone more ubar than you.
to that i say, LOL
plase oh PUH-LEEZE tell me you went up at lvl 65 agains lvl 70+?
Well actually a level 76 vs any other takers. ANd yes the archer was more uber as he had much better gear then me, wouldnt surprise me if he had a level more as well.
Arena battles have nukers so much massive more adventage then meelees becose you can use whatever skill at start, as we are 'flagged'
As for not beating a dwarf... I gota say grats, last I was in the arena as my lv 58 BH, I was beaten by an lv 46 Necro :P
If I had my bow with me thoght, the end result may ben difference, sad thoght if you wana beat rangers you need ot use weapons who you don't even have mastereis for.
I still don't know how people plan on using a bow with no masteries and no range boosts to defeat classes that are designed for ranged supremacy. The answer isn't for all melee classes to buy bows.
The melee classes just need ways to close the distance and passive magic defense to improve the bonus that they get from jewels.
Arena battles have nukers so much massive more adventage then meelees becose you can use whatever skill at start, as we are 'flagged'
As for not beating a dwarf... I gota say grats, last I was in the arena as my lv 58 BH, I was beaten by an lv 46 Necro :P
If I had my bow with me thoght, the end result may ben difference, sad thoght if you wana beat rangers you need ot use weapons who you don't even have mastereis for.
don't feel to bad to losing to a necro...
my mid 50 necro 1v1 a 70+ sr... first round we were both fully buffed... my sleep failed... his stun shot landed... he 2 shotted me after that... second round he was full buffed i was self buffed... it went something like this:
I still don't know how people plan on using a bow with no masteries and no range boosts to defeat classes that are designed for ranged supremacy. The answer isn't for all melee classes to buy bows.
The melee classes just need ways to close the distance and passive magic defense to improve the bonus that they get from jewels.
Becose as an dwarf I ahve no chans to get close to an ranger, specialy not a nuker, we are the most single easeiest target to sleep. Thats how I also lost that battle, with a bow sure we don't have super long range, but we will at least manage to catch up a bit and atack at least a few times, and specialy when a target is more then 14 levels below we can easely drop em, 3-5 hits wuld ben enought on that nuker for me. But since my bow was on another alt that time.
Moving slow abilities and speed boosts from ranged to melee classes might do a lot, I'm not sure.
I think the melee/range imbalance is so deeply rooted into the game that only an imbalance in another place (to the disadvantage of archers/mages) can temporarily overshadow it.
Silly question but did your oponents have buffs? If they did and you didn't that's the problem. Buffs are everything in pvp. The archer I can see winning. The BD and dwarf, I woulda slowed them and nuked them as I kited back.
Silly question but did your oponents have buffs? If they did and you didn't that's the problem. Buffs are everything in pvp. The archer I can see winning. The BD and dwarf, I woulda slowed them and nuked them as I kited back.
I am pretty sure the bd only had selfbuffs. Same as me. And yes, I have seen what buffs do for a nuker. My matk is now 1k, with buffs, 2k. Casting speed buffed is a lot higher as well. Those things matters a lot.
Well... some of your failure is because you weren't fully buffed, tried to use Aura Flare the way it used to be (which you can't), went up against an archer with higher grade equipment. etc...
I feel you need to go back in and try again.
Against melee.. always slow first. Always.
Archer... it really is a sleep nuke sleep thing... that is the wild card.. will sleep land? Will they crit? etc.
Against a mage.. depends... if you are wearing Nightmare then I would start nuking away and sleeping if you can. If you don't have silence then that is an issue because if they do that will end the fight right there.
Since they changed Aura Flare this might not be an issue anymore but throw a slow on them so they dont' get close just in case.
I still don't know how people plan on using a bow with no masteries and no range boosts to defeat classes that are designed for ranged supremacy. The answer isn't for all melee classes to buy bows.
The melee classes just need ways to close the distance and passive magic defense to improve the bonus that they get from jewels.
You'll often do more dps with a bow simply because you can start shooting from a farther distance. If you get slowed and kited, a bow is a no brainer if you have no counter for the slow. In open pvp, usually whoever you start hitting (preferably in an /assisting party) will probably run in the opposite direction if they survive the first bunch of arrows or nukes. If all you used was a melee weapon you could do a number of things, only one of which includes killing your target - the target could die before you ever even got in range, the target could kill you before you get in range, once you get in range the target could put out more dps from short range than from long (which is less true in c4, but still a possibility), the target could just run away ignoring your gimp range, or they could bsoe long before you hit them.
This is not to say one should always use a bow. That couldn't be further from the truth. But to exclude bows entirely limits you in your strategies.
In short, it's best if you make use of a bow even if just a little when playing a melee class. You can't justify not using a bow with "the class just needs this and that" when the reality is, they don't. :< But yeah I know, it's stupid that we need bows. Reality (even the virtual kind) isn't always what you want it to be. You can either live in denial or learn to adapt.
And more specifically for me - I can defeat classes with a bow that I can't with a sword on my TK. A sorcerer can slow me and kill me with little effort, but if I use a bow and manage to crit even a few times, I have suddenly increased my chances to kill him significantly.
Smart ranged player can keep you from even touching them with the bow.
The range of a melee with a bow is far shorter then the 900 range of a nuker or an actual archer. The bow does allow the melee to do some damage (about 1 regular swing of my primary weapon from what I could tell) but its really not a feasible solution to the entire problem.
Not to mention the game isn't designed around toting multiple weapons. That's why they only protect the player from dropping the currently equipped weapon rather then all weapons in inventory.
Smart ranged player can keep you from even touching them with the bow.
So you're saying a smart ranged player can't keep you from getting into melee range? It's many times easier to get in bow range and get your damage done than it is to run all the way into melee range to do your damage.
The range of a melee with a bow is far shorter then the 900 range of a nuker or an actual archer. The bow does allow the melee to do some damage (about 1 regular swing of my primary weapon from what I could tell) but its really not a feasible solution to the entire problem.
Of course not. That isn't the point I am trying to make. It doesn't solve the gimpness of a melee to use a bow, I've never argued otherwise. But that doesn't mean you can't use a bow either when it increases your utility and effectiveness.
Not to mention the game isn't designed around toting multiple weapons. That's why they only protect the player from dropping the currently equipped weapon rather then all weapons in inventory.
This is no justification for why you can't use multiple weapons. You're just afraid of dropping a weapon, which is understandable. Are you high enough to use A grade? A majestic helmet costs more than a soul seperator and a carnage bow combined on kain. Also, many classes do have multiple weapon masteries. Dorfs can be toting around a pole and a blunt, in addition to a bow if they can afford it. Destroyers are commonly found with at least a 2hs, a blunt and a bow if not also a polearm.
I think there's a little misunderstanding going on here. I think it's stupid we have to use bows too. But don't live in denial of a bow's usefulness to a melee class. If you do, you are only cutting yourself short. Maybe you're just trying to justify not using a bow because you can't afford one, or are too afraid of dropping it. Don't let your emotions sway your opinion like that.
I think it's stupid we have to use bows too. But don't live in denial of a bow's usefulness to a melee class. If you do, you are only cutting yourself short.
I'm going to quote that for semi-truth. Definitely the right idea. The only advantage it should be giving is an extra tactical option, not a basic ability to fight back at all. :eek:
I also stopped reading the post after I read that. Everything under it is invalidated.
Try some real PVP battles, with full parties and full buffs. I've been in 500,000 battles such as this and it's completely dominated by ranged DD classes: archer and nukers.
I also stopped reading the post after I read that. Everything under it is invalidated.
Try some real PVP battles, with full parties and full buffs. I've been in 500,000 battles such as this and it's completely dominated by ranged DD classes: archer and nukers.
Well my true PvP went as following. I met griefsquads. They killed me. End of story. Not very interesting indeed.
The coliseum is not such a bad representation of PvP though. In a siege you will see lots of people having to fight without a lot of buffs. To stop reading because this is what could be described as a fair fight (everybody bringing their own stuff) is a bit shortshighted isnt it. For one thing, you havent the foggiest idea what I am trying to find out here.
Well... some of your failure is because you weren't fully buffed, tried to use Aura Flare the way it used to be (which you can't), went up against an archer with higher grade equipment. etc...
I feel you need to go back in and try again.
Against melee.. always slow first. Always.
Archer... it really is a sleep nuke sleep thing... that is the wild card.. will sleep land? Will they crit? etc.
Against a mage.. depends... if you are wearing Nightmare then I would start nuking away and sleeping if you can. If you don't have silence then that is an issue because if they do that will end the fight right there.
Since they changed Aura Flare this might not be an issue anymore but throw a slow on them so they dont' get close just in case.
Good suggestions, my noobness at being a nuker shows of course. I tried to sleep/nuke them only to find out my sleeps didnt land as often as I liked. I also tried surrender to fire and decay but not slow. And with Aura Flare nerfed, you can't just kill them on short range as nukers used to do.
As for buffs. Thats the thing the PTS was lacking. Friendly buffers to buff me. I had no idea the kind of boost a nuker gets from buffs. Sure buffs helps a melee as well, but not to that degree.