Hey all, not sure if this has been suggested before, so here goes:
I think Tanks (paladins, and maybe tk/sk) should get a Transfer Pain like skill that applies to their party. For instance, "Absorb Pain" lvl 1, absorb x% of damage a single party member sustains (i.e., tanks protect the healer). Successive levels equivalent to TP % rates, and only 1 tank can "Absorb Pain" on any 1 other party member at a time. Then, in later levels comes "Mass Absorb Pain" which makes the tank absorb a % of all party member damage.
Anyhoo, that's my idea. ^_^
edit:// well, I feel dumb. 2 threads down is an identical topic. T_T
hmm... I dunno, I mean, a 'buff bot' (or 'out of party buffer', if you prefer ~_^) has alot of buffs that ease the xping process... I'm not certain if just adding a Transfer Pain-like tank skill would make people start to put paladins on a lease... Like any other skill, it wouldn't start to get "really good" (high %) until high levels... And especially since it would/could constantly drain mana it may not be a skill that bodes well for dual-boxing. Just my opinion, tho :D
Make P defense and M defense factor in better into the damage equation and I might change my mind! Its one thing to be the barrier between a nuker and his enemies it another to be his sacrificial lamb!
hmm... I dunno, I mean, a 'buff bot' (or 'out of party buffer', if you prefer ~_^) has alot of buffs that ease the xping process... I'm not certain if just adding a Transfer Pain-like tank skill would make people start to put paladins on a lease... Like any other skill, it wouldn't start to get "really good" (high %) until high levels... And especially since it would/could constantly drain mana it may not be a skill that bodes well for dual-boxing. Just my opinion, tho :D
Yer, but I know for a fact I'd see nukers & archers running around blazing swamp with tanks in tow (<--the boxed kind!) looking for pvp. xD That's one of the main reasons why necro is considered so overly powerful in c4 - because they have a summon to do exactly what you suggest tanks do.
I'm fine with that though if it means I can actually be of some use in pvp....
Make P defense and M defense factor in better into the damage equation and I might change my mind! Its one thing to be the barrier between a nuker and his enemies it another to be his sacrificial lamb!
Well, your feeling is valid, but as I play a Bishop, perhaps that's why I thought the idea would be good. However, the skill would be toggle-able, so you wouldn't have to use it :)
You know, it is pretty sad that as a tank I can stand in front of my friend with my gigantic shield, yet the arrows and spell bolts pass right through me and hit her! omg, i have failed as a tank.
You know, it is pretty sad that as a tank I can stand in front of my friend with my gigantic shield, yet the arrows and spell bolts pass right through me and hit her! omg, i have failed as a tank.
yes thats about all we are good for, is getting beat up and we're not that good at it either. :(
pallys are the gimped characters on lineage 2.
lol :) when I was thinking of the "Absorb Pain" skill, I had the Paladin "Protect" skill from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance in mind: The paladin casts "Protect" on a party member, and for one round will switch places with that member if they are attacked (this worked really well if you'd sub-classed a Fighter, and had the Strike Back skill (0 dmg taken, free counter attack)) except since FFTA is a turn-based game, it would be very hard to implement something as cool as that in L2. So, I think "Absorb Pain" would be the best way to accomplish one of the tank's main purposes: protecting party members. ^_^
While yes holding agro from mobs is the tanks main purpose but in pvp that ios out the window. In L2 the tank has no role. Since their p attack is so nerfed they can't do enough damage to kill anyone in any reasonable amount of time and since the damage equations are so horribily in favor of attackers they die to fast to be the front line guys to hold people off in pvp tanks are reverted to run around stunners, crappy makeshift healers, or weak bow equipped DD's! Damage equation needs to be redone or tanks need further upgrades to give them any defining and unique role in pvp
I agree with the p.def m.def issue that Righteous brings up.
Altering hate to act as a focused debuff on a target when they aren't attacking the tank would give proper justification for going after the tank first and would protect the people with the tank.
Far cleaner and less likely to be abused then a transfer pain skill... unless that's what you were going for was an abusable skill for mages/archers so they can have pet tanks to absorb more damage. If that is what you're going for then no... they don't really need that kind of assistance.
what would be cool is if they could make it where, the tank could choose to take say an archer shot or magic shot if he is in the way, if he isnt then it wont count. get what im saying, tank must be in the path of the arrow to block it
Yer, but I know for a fact I'd see nukers & archers running around blazing swamp with tanks in tow (<--the boxed kind!) looking for pvp. xD That's one of the main reasons why necro is considered so overly powerful in c4 - because they have a summon to do exactly what you suggest tanks do.
Now imagine a Necro with a summon AND a tank in tow :)
Altering hate to act as a focused debuff on a target when they aren't attacking the tank would give proper justification for going after the tank first and would protect the people with the tank.
Or maybe altering 'Hate' in PVP to have a 'Fear'-like effect would be a decent idea. *shrug*
Altering hate to act as a focused debuff on a target when they aren't attacking the tank would give proper justification for going after the tank first and would protect the people with the tank.
Or maybe altering 'Hate' in PVP to have a 'Fear'-like effect would be a decent idea. *shrug*
Oh you mean the exact opposite of what the skill is intended to do?
The skill works in PVE by forcing the mob to attack.
Forcing a player to attack is far too heavy handed and has really nasty sideeffects for healers when their target is changed.
That's why I'm suggesting a targetted debuff that protects the people with the tank and lets the target of the debuff make their own decision on who they wish to attack. They can continue to attack the non-tank at a heavy penalty or they can go after the tank to try to remove the penalty.
Altering hate to act as a focused debuff on a target when they aren't attacking the tank would give proper justification for going after the tank first and would protect the people with the tank.
Or maybe altering 'Hate' in PVP to have a 'Fear'-like effect would be a decent idea. *shrug*
Oh you mean the exact opposite of what the skill is intended to do?
The skill works in PVE by forcing the mob to attack.
Forcing a player to attack is far too heavy handed and has really nasty sideeffects for healers when their target is changed.
That's why I'm suggesting a targetted debuff that protects the people with the tank and lets the target of the debuff make their own decision on who they wish to attack. They can continue to attack the non-tank at a heavy penalty or they can go after the tank to try to remove the penalty.
I know what the effects of Hate are in PvE, before our Paladin quit he and I would party constantly. But like you said, forcing a player to switch targets in PvP with Hate would be abused against enemy healers... which is why I said a Fear-like effect might be better. I still think that they should recieve a Transfer Pain-like skill, as they are supposed to be protecting their party members, and that would probably be the easiest way to implement it.
Either way, if Hate ever was implemented in PvP, people would start complaining about how easily it can be abused.
IMO if the tanks got to use hate and then decided to use it to hate the healers instead of trying to protect their group they would likely just end up sucking dirt as fast as they do now. By hating the healers they would do what all of you want tanks to do. They would become the center of attention. None of these suggestions really matter all that much, because tanks go down like a sack of potatos once people get around to killing them. Its just that they are usually ignored until they get too pesky.
lol :) when I was thinking of the "Absorb Pain" skill, I had the Paladin "Protect" skill from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance in mind: The paladin casts "Protect" on a party member, and for one round will switch places with that member if they are attacked (this worked really well if you'd sub-classed a Fighter, and had the Strike Back skill (0 dmg taken, free counter attack)) except since FFTA is a turn-based game, it would be very hard to implement something as cool as that in L2. So, I think "Absorb Pain" would be the best way to accomplish one of the tank's main purposes: protecting party members. ^_^
Something like this wouldn't be hard at all to make work. Final Fantasy 11 Paladins had the exact thing your looking for. I had a macro created to cast it on the group's healer and as soon as he/she started taking dammage I would run between him and the mob and cast it. Easy as pie :P
Altering hate to act as a focused debuff on a target when they aren't attacking the tank would give proper justification for going after the tank first and would protect the people with the tank.
Or maybe altering 'Hate' in PVP to have a 'Fear'-like effect would be a decent idea. *shrug*
Oh you mean the exact opposite of what the skill is intended to do?
The skill works in PVE by forcing the mob to attack.
Forcing a player to attack is far too heavy handed and has really nasty sideeffects for healers when their target is changed.
That's why I'm suggesting a targetted debuff that protects the people with the tank and lets the target of the debuff make their own decision on who they wish to attack. They can continue to attack the non-tank at a heavy penalty or they can go after the tank to try to remove the penalty.
I know what the effects of Hate are in PvE, before our Paladin quit he and I would party constantly. But like you said, forcing a player to switch targets in PvP with Hate would be abused against enemy healers... which is why I said a Fear-like effect might be better. I still think that they should recieve a Transfer Pain-like skill, as they are supposed to be protecting their party members, and that would probably be the easiest way to implement it.
Either way, if Hate ever was implemented in PvP, people would start complaining about how easily it can be abused.
I fail to see the problem! :) So what if you can hate a healer? Yes, it would make a healer's life much harder. I just don't see it as any more broken than a nuker who can pop 1500 damages a nuke every half second on my TK because surrender to _element_ basically cannot fail. Unfair does not necesarily equal wrong when it comes to pvp. That and hate doesn't have to force the target for any amount of time; all it has to do is swap target. Hate costs a lot of mp (just like a nuker's main nuke, except tanks don't have even close to the same mp pool) and Vengeance and the phantom summoner's summon's work in pvp, why not hate? and blah blah blah I don't care just let it work in pvp!!! ;-;
/rant
Also DAs have a fear spell. This should work in pvp too. Serious. o.o Same goes for Warcryer and Necro's respecitve fears. Confusion/switch etc need to switch to a random nearby player target when used in pvp and charm/serenade of eva needs to remove target (serenade of eva is an aoe BUT it has a high failure rate).
/2nd rant
I would actually prefer hate working in pvp over having a group buff transfer pain without a doubt, but I'll take what I can get. o_o;;
... Its one thing to be the barrier between a nuker and his enemies it another to be his sacrificial lamb!
Well... yeah... somewhat. Tanks take the damage for the party, and are the first to die typically. This is thier job and I'm greatfull for it. :)
I like this idea as an alternative since they won't have "Hate" working PvP it seems. (That seems like something pretty complicated to convert from working on a mob to working on a PC.) Transfer the damage to the one who is supposed to take it and give tanks some real PvP value.
... Its one thing to be the barrier between a nuker and his enemies it another to be his sacrificial lamb!
Well... yeah... somewhat. Tanks take the damage for the party, and are the first to die typically. This is thier job and I'm greatfull for it. :)
I like this idea as an alternative since they won't have "Hate" working PvP it seems. (That seems like something pretty complicated to convert from working on a mob to working on a PC.) Transfer the damage to the one who is supposed to take it and give tanks some real PvP value.
Actually, hate in the form of target switch is already implemented, but ncsoft saw fit to not grant the target switch effect to Aggression or Hate Aura for some weird reason.
When you began to say "Final Fantasy" I was expecting you to say FFXI Online, however, I wasn't expecting FFTA. I haven't played FFTA, only FFT (which doesn't have that ability), however, they did this in FFXI as a Paladin skill. The Paladin would use the "Protect" skill and move in front of the person they placed it on, taking damage instead of them. I think if they implimented a similiar way of using a skill like that, it should work out fine for the most part.
Please Note: If this was said already, I appologise. I skimmed through the posts, but did not read all of them after the post I'm replying to as I'm in somewhat of a hurry atm heh.
When you began to say "Final Fantasy" I was expecting you to say FFXI Online, however, I wasn't expecting FFTA. I haven't played FFTA, only FFT (which doesn't have that ability), however, they did this in FFXI as a Paladin skill. The Paladin would use the "Protect" skill and move in front of the person they placed it on, taking damage instead of them. I think if they implimented a similiar way of using a skill like that, it should work out fine for the most part.
Please Note: If this was said already, I appologise. I skimmed through the posts, but did not read all of them after the post I'm replying to as I'm in somewhat of a hurry atm heh.
heehee that's cool, see, I never played FFXI, so I didn't know they had "Protect" implemented there.
Also DAs have a fear spell. This should work in pvp too. Serious. o.o Same goes for Warcryer and Necro's respecitve fears. Confusion/switch etc need to switch to a random nearby player target when used in pvp and charm/serenade of eva needs to remove target (serenade of eva is an aoe BUT it has a high failure rate).
Fear works on summons. Rather well, in my experience. Take advantage of it. ;)
I'd definitely adore all these spells working in PvP if they were properly implemented - it's disheartening to see summoners as the only one affected by them.
I'd definitely adore all these spells working in PvP if they were properly implemented - it's disheartening to see summoners as the only one affected by them.
Well, I'm almost positive I saw a DA's panther being affected by Word of Fear, as well as my friend's Silhouette... but yes, it is discouraging that those spells are basically limited to working against summoners.
Also DAs have a fear spell. This should work in pvp too. Serious. o.o Same goes for Warcryer and Necro's respecitve fears. Confusion/switch etc need to switch to a random nearby player target when used in pvp and charm/serenade of eva needs to remove target (serenade of eva is an aoe BUT it has a high failure rate).
Fear works on summons. Rather well, in my experience. Take advantage of it. ;)
When you began to say "Final Fantasy" I was expecting you to say FFXI Online, however, I wasn't expecting FFTA. I haven't played FFTA, only FFT (which doesn't have that ability), however, they did this in FFXI as a Paladin skill. The Paladin would use the "Protect" skill and move in front of the person they placed it on, taking damage instead of them. I think if they implimented a similiar way of using a skill like that, it should work out fine for the most part.
Please Note: If this was said already, I appologise. I skimmed through the posts, but did not read all of them after the post I'm replying to as I'm in somewhat of a hurry atm heh.
Crusaders in RO has a similar skill called sacrifice, so i don't think such skill implement for L2 will cost a problem