Only back a week and I fell for the oldest scam in game... somoene pretending to be a guildmate and saying here's my alt, can I borrow your stuff. Yes it was my fault for handing over my items and I should have known better, but certainly a gm will help me get my items back right?
WRONG.
Because its not considered a bug, they won't interfere? I'm sorry but that is the biggest crock of cheese I've ever heard. All they had to do is research the pm's I got and guild chat to see I was really scammed. I have had friends in the past who were gm's in games and so I know what they are capable of doing in a game, and retrieving scammed items is doable. The fact that the gm's will not help out a player IE A PAYING CUSTOMER, is very frustrating and upsetting. This makes me think that ncsoft cares nothing for their honest, hard working players. That they care more and value the scammers more. And then people wonder why there are so many people using hacks and bots and farmers...its because of policies such as this.
I will not lay down quietly while people like this exist in the game, it may not be a bug abuse but it sure as heck ruins my game play.
Yes people need to take personal responsibility for their mistakes, but NCSoft needs to step up and take care of their community. I have screen shots of the whole conversation even, which the gm never even asked for. I was dismissed like a noob whining about being pk'd outside of a starter town.
Why would they research to see if you were scammed when scamming is legal?
I was dismissed like a noob whining about being pk'd outside of a starter town.
No offense, but you are just like a newbie whining about being PKed outside of a starter town. You're complaining about a completely legal part of the game.
Be more careful next time. Ask him to say hi in clan chat first, etc.
That is my whole point, how can scamming people be any more legal then using speed hacks or bots? Does it change the programming of the software? No. But does it hurt the game play of the people in game? Yes.
If someone dupes adena or items and gives/sells them to someone, those items can be and are often retrieved by the gm's when the duping has been discovered. I see no difference in this.
You were socially manipulated into giving up your gear. NCSoft does not protect against this sort of thing and they don't care. NCsoft will do their best to protect you from being hacked, abused by 3rd party software or being taken advantage of by an in game bug.
You don't have to like their policy. I personally don't like it but I understand that they're not going to do anything about it. You're better off to just start working on getting some new gear.
Does it change the programming of the software? No. But does it hurt the game play of the people in game? Yes.
So does PKing newbies...but you publically mocked the idea of a newbie whining about that, so how is this any different? Because it affected you?
If someone scams you out of gear by saying "I'm a GM", that player can be punished, although you may not get your gear back. This is to prevent "flashing a fake badge", so to speak.
If someone scams you out of gear by saying "do this to get free stuff", that player can be punished, although you won't get your gear back. This is to inhibit the spread of real and fake exploits, I believe.
If someone scams you out of gear by pretending to be another player, that's your own darn fault. It's low. It's wrong. It's also completely legal for a reason. It's a form of "economic PK", which L2 encourages. This is a hostile game.
Protect yourself. Use common sense. Be a little paranoid. Don't expect the GMs to have your back when it was your mistake in the first place, because this just isn't that kind of game.
If someone scams you out of gear by pretending to be another player, that's your own darn fault. It's low. It's wrong. It's also completely legal for a reason. It's a form of "economic PK", which L2 encourages. This is a hostile game.
man ur funny.
for one, it is an exploit. how is it classified as an exploit u ask, well its called taking advantage of the game, for your personal benifit. FONT (yes thats right) is a part of the game, and in this since it was used in a manor to subsitute the letters from another characters name into the form of that characters name. I.E. and exploit, the game has been used in a manor in which the font was not designed to do.
also i dont think L2 encourages, that would be like the FBI telling all the people who have been scammed by over sea's fraud, its their own fault. or paypal from ebay saying srry. not our problem.
next time dont speak if you have nothing nice to say.
this is a game, it takes the GM 30secs to retrieve the log and get the item back. also what if this happens to noob players, in reality 1 week worth of playing you really dont know how the game opperates.
for one, it is an exploit. how is it classified as an exploit u ask, well its called taking advantage of the game, for your personal benifit. FONT (yes thats right) is a part of the game, and in this since it was used in a manor to subsitute the letters from another characters name into the form of that characters name. I.E. and exploit, the game has been used in a manor in which the font was not designed to do.
That exploit was fixed ages ago. It's no longer possible to use the in-game font to make one letter look exactly like another. A player's reading error is now required, which is not an exploit.
Not an exploit.
Not about game design.
Player error.
It's just another way for a jerk to gank someone, plenty more where that came from...and none of them are punishable.
also i dont think L2 encourages, that would be like the FBI telling all the people who have been scammed by over sea's fraud, its their own fault. or paypal from ebay saying srry. not our problem.
Then you don't know this game. It's intentionally designed to stir up conflict, backdoor politics, power struggles, bullying, etc. Listen to how the staff talk about the game, if you don't believe me.
next time dont speak if you have nothing nice to say.
*rolls eyes*
I'm not here to be anyone's mother, I'm here to discuss the topic. In this case, I was overviewing what I know about the game's rules and design. I wasn't being mean, I was being honest. Scammin is part of the game, regardless of what you or I prefer--it's here to stay. If that sounds "not nice"--get over it. :)
this is a game, it takes the GM 30secs to retrieve the log and get the item back.
It doesn't matter how long it takes. They won't do it. They have a policy against it. This is sold as a "hardcore" game, so you're on your own.
also what if this happens to noob players, in reality 1 week worth of playing you really dont know how the game opperates.
Or worse, sell the Soul bow for a fair price, then 10 mins later, petition about some scam of that guy and demand to get it back... While of course keeping the money.
There is an easy protection against scams: OPEN YOUR EYES !
There is an easy protection against scams: OPEN YOUR EYES !
You'd think that people would read the forums. Any forums. I'm told they talk about this scam on other forums so people should be aware of it. Also, anyone with that kind of gear should know better...
Here's a solution....never ever hand over your gear to anyone unless you can punch them in the face .
Fixed that for you.
Where was that first said? That's been my policy on any gear I wanted to make sure I got back...and I know I heard it somewhere before I was saying it.
Here's a solution....never ever hand over your gear to anyone unless you can punch them in the face .
Fixed that for you.
Where was that first said? That's been my policy on any gear I wanted to make sure I got back...and I know I heard it somewhere before I was saying it.
Well, I said it once a very long time ago and it started popping up more and more. So that, along with Bachelor Chow (stolen from me by Futurama), was created by me.
All they had to do is research the pm's I got and guild chat to see I was really scammed.
all you have to do is research the forums to realize you shouldnt have been scammed
seriously man its been said a billion times. it was even a server announcement on log in like 1 week ago
i feel bad for you loseing your gear but you should know better
haveing said that hears my scam list...
bought like 4 gem d's advertized as sops
second account stripped by "friend" (yes i was unable to punch him in the face therefore all items lost)
nearly lost my low c staff at 40 from name scam
reason this nearly worked was at the time i was at giran GK talking to my clan leader about how bad it was and how i needed another one
reason it didnt work?
when i went to unequip it i typed /target *clanleader* and then traded it to him
he was abit confused at the time but we both had a good laugh later on
You were socially manipulated into giving up your gear. NCSoft does not protect against this sort of thing and they don't care. NCsoft will do their best to protect you from being hacked, abused by 3rd party software or being taken advantage of by an in game bug.
And here is where I disagree.
Normally what you are doing to others is limited by what the victims can do to you. Hit somebody and you flag. PK somebody and expect to be PK'ed in return. Etc.
This is true for most griefing tactics except 1.
The Scam.
Basicly what most Scammers do is to make an expendable toon to do their dirty work. Then when the toon has fulfilled its mission it transfers the goodies to the main toon and then gets deleted. There is no way to find out who the real scammer is.
So in order to gain an advantage, they use a game-engine feature (making new toons AND transfer item) to give them what they couldnt get by other means for their main.
That is an exploit of a feature/bug. Scammers who do this should be permabanned for violating the EULA.
That is an exploit of a feature/bug. Scammers who do this should be permabanned for violating the EULA.
Carefully, carefully, Woody.
Lets say, I have 2 high level chars on my account, one in Alliance A and another in Alliance B. Alliance A and B are at war with one another. One of my chars is a spy.
Wouldn't that be an "unfair abuse of a game mechanic to get an advantage" as well, then ? And that one cannot be as easily prohibited, by just keeping your eyes OPEN and your mind clear.
I think it is a 'use' of a feature, not an 'exploit' of one. I also think it is morally bankrupt and those who do it are dispicible. But allowing the full range of dispicible human actions into the game is one of the fascinations of L2. It isn't a carebear world, its a dog-eat-dog one.
You gotta be smart, you gotta learn, you gotta get better to excel in L2, just like RW. Man, I love it.
I mean I love L2, not the scammers. They are worse then stepping into fresh cat **** in your bare feet.
EDIT I was referring to Wood's post, the scammers are immoral...not to Kitten's post about multi-clans...she posted as I wrote.
i got people msging me few times a week... trying to scam me..
things that give it off... WHY THE HELL would anyone wanna see the exact Patk you`ll have on some noob alt you never heard of... or a person you really DO know...
and 80% of the people that msg me got the most crappy english i ever encountered.. and some friends are dutch and wouldnt talk to me in english in the first place :p
if its a "pretending to be" clanny i check if hes really in clan
if its a "pretending to be" alt of clanny i ask some specifics and the reason for the trade ( people really arent interested alot in borowing high lvl stuff for their alt normally)
i havent fallen for a single scam and ive been playing since open beta, so i have seen a GOOD share of scams. GMs shouldnt bother giving stuff back, it isnt so hard and the truth is you GAVE it away, and that can in no way be illegal.
Nothing I hate worse in this game then seeing good people quit because they got scammed. I have seen it and scamms have been tried on me. I have never fallen for any and have seen people fall for a scam while we are talking about the scam in clan chat. It all boils down to paying attention to who you are talking too. Also I really like the "don't give anyone your gear unless u can punch them in the face" folocify.
No way they could give you the items back know matter what. Why? because you hit the accept button on the trade.
If they did then every time someone did something they didnt mean to do, or if you didnt like the results of an action after you did it you could petition and get the item back.
Example OE a wep from +3 to +4 or +15 to +16 poof its gone. Well petition the gm and tell them it was an accident you didnt mean to OE that weapon was trying to oe a different wep.
I know many people will say but thats not anything like being scammed. But if you think about it it is. It all boils down to a click of the mouse key. Once you have clicked it theres no going back.
I think it is a 'use' of a feature, not an 'exploit' of one. I also think it is morally bankrupt and those who do it are dispicible. But allowing the full range of dispicible human actions into the game is one of the fascinations of L2. It isn't a carebear world, its a dog-eat-dog one.
There has been a whole lot of features in the game that have been misused for things that they were not meant to do. Things like shooting form a safety so mobs coulnt hit you. Or making adana fields during sieges, or luring special mobs into town.
All the use of these features were eventually deemed an exploit and forbidden. Because they gave you an edge you couldnt have had without them.
I see no difference between that and using a feature to make yourself an expendable toon to scam somebody else.
That is an exploit of a feature/bug. Scammers who do this should be permabanned for violating the EULA.
Carefully, carefully, Woody.
Lets say, I have 2 high level chars on my account, one in Alliance A and another in Alliance B. Alliance A and B are at war with one another. One of my chars is a spy.
Wouldn't that be an "unfair abuse of a game mechanic to get an advantage" as well, then ? And that one cannot be as easily prohibited, by just keeping your eyes OPEN and your mind clear.
Abused Kitten
Ah, but in your example you have invested a lot of time and effort into your spy. Also, the enemy can retaliate on him. This character will lose a lot when found out. Same as your Pk alt. He will get hurt big time now and then. I can see those characters as being their own entities. Even if they help you. Not at all like an expendable toon that is intended for just one thing, a scam and then a delete.
it is an exploit. how is it classified as an exploit u ask, well its called taking advantage of the game, for your personal benifit.
lol...
Ok so i logged back in for C4 and i was the only one selling d crystals and people had no choice but to buy from me, so i overpriced them. i.e. Took advantage of the game for my personal benefit... its an exploit?
oh noes. pls dont report me.
Yeah you got scammed **** happens, you should of been more careful. Get over it. Its part of the game and has been the whole time, join the club of the other hundred dummies in the game.
Normally what you are doing to others is limited by what the victims can do to you. Hit somebody and you flag. PK somebody and expect to be PK'ed in return. Etc.
.
.
.
That is an exploit of a feature/bug. Scammers who do this should be permabanned for violating the EULA.
You and I are never going to agree on this. In your example of PKing, the person PKed has very little recourse until they get higher level. There are some things you can do but not much.
On the other hand, the potential scam victim is really in the drivers seat here. You have complete control over whether you turn your items over to another person. You have 100% control over the outcome, unlike being PKed.
There has been a whole lot of features in the game that have been misused for things that they were not meant to do. Things like shooting form a safety so mobs coulnt hit you. Or making adana fields during sieges, or luring special mobs into town.
All the use of these features were eventually deemed an exploit and forbidden. Because they gave you an edge you couldnt have had without them.
I see no difference between that and using a feature to make yourself an expendable toon to scam somebody else.
Only 1 flaw here all those involve doing something that influinces the game play.
1. Shooting mobs from safe places is taking advantage of a NPC cheating the game design.
2. Adena fields during sieges creates lag during sieges so the defending side gets an unfare advantage becuase of game design.
3. Training Boss mobs into town another instances of taking advantage of game design since towns are safe zones.
Basically unless they can get your items without your direct assistants, it will never be classified as an exploit.
But since in a trade you have to intiate or accept. You have to put items into the trade window and you have to click the accept trade button it is not considered an exploit.
Dont get me wrong I hate scammers as much as you. I also wish they would do something about people imitating other toon names to try and trick people. But there are ways to defend yourself from this type of scam.
Best advice is never trade with anyone no matter what unless you can afford not to get that item back.
I find it interesting that GMs will ban you if you create an account with GM at the beginning(impersonating a GM) but they will not ban scammers for impersonating other players.
I find it interesting that GMs will ban you if you create an account with GM at the beginning(impersonating a GM) but they will not ban scammers for impersonating other players.
I find it interesting that GMs will ban you if you create an account with GM at the beginning(impersonating a GM) but they will not ban scammers for impersonating other players.
Good point
Not really. Impersonating an NCSoft employee should be insta-bannable. It shouldn't be rocket surgery to understand the difference.
I find it interesting that GMs will ban you if you create an account with GM at the beginning(impersonating a GM) but they will not ban scammers for impersonating other players.
Good point
Not really. Impersonating an NCSoft employee should be insta-bannable. It shouldn't be rocket surgery to understand the difference.
Another good point but whats the difference impersonating anybody should be bannable. But it wont be so just be careful and read the name closely.
I find it interesting that GMs will ban you if you create an account with GM at the beginning(impersonating a GM) but they will not ban scammers for impersonating other players.
Good point
Not really. Impersonating an NCSoft employee should be insta-bannable. It shouldn't be rocket surgery to understand the difference.
Another good point but whats the difference impersonating anybody should be bannable. But it wont be so just be careful and read the name closely.
*sigh* I didn't think I'd have to explain. An NCSoft employee is in a position of power over a player. Impersonating them transfers that power. Someone impersonating your friend does not have that same power; you're on equal footing. Understand?
I find it interesting that GMs will ban you if you create an account with GM at the beginning(impersonating a GM) but they will not ban scammers for impersonating other players.
Good point
Not really. Impersonating an NCSoft employee should be insta-bannable. It shouldn't be rocket surgery to understand the difference.
Another good point but whats the difference impersonating anybody should be bannable. But it wont be so just be careful and read the name closely.
*sigh* I didn't think I'd have to explain. An NCSoft employee is in a position of power over a player. Impersonating them transfers that power. Someone impersonating your friend does not have that same power; you're on equal footing. Understand?
*Sigh* You didn't have to explain it. I already know that. But I still think impersonating other players is wrong even if it is part of the game.
I find it interesting that GMs will ban you if you create an account with GM at the beginning(impersonating a GM) but they will not ban scammers for impersonating other players.
Good point
Not really. Impersonating an NCSoft employee should be insta-bannable. It shouldn't be rocket surgery to understand the difference.
Another good point but whats the difference impersonating anybody should be bannable. But it wont be so just be careful and read the name closely.
*sigh* I didn't think I'd have to explain. An NCSoft employee is in a position of power over a player. Impersonating them transfers that power. Someone impersonating your friend does not have that same power; you're on equal footing. Understand?
Honestly, I trust my friends more than I do an NCSoft employee. I would actually be less likely to believe that someone with GMwhatshisface as a name was GM then I would MrTeebOff was really me (Obviously I know it isnt me cause I m me, but you get the point). I am just glad that they changed the text so that you can actually tell the difference between certain characters.
BTW I love quote mazes. Don't you?
Well, the problem with impersonating other players is, where to draw the line. There are at least a dozen variants of Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli of each server. They all are spelt similar, but not the same.
Now, who is the impersonator and who is the original ? What if the original is only a lvl 5 char, who never did get any playtime, but the newer "version" of the almost same name is a hero ?
What to do, when two names are close to be the same by accident ?
If there is a player Tigerclaw and a player Tigerclavv, it looks very much the same, but is one impersonating the other ? Or is the second one just using a name as close to the one he wanted, as possible ?
What measures should be taken to resolve this name mess ? When there would be a player named "Schmusekatse" on Gustin, that would play a mage in a large ally, they would outlevel me within 2 month, would that give them the right to have MY name "Schmusekatze" changed to something else ? Or even get me banned ? What if someone had the name Schmusekatse already in closed beta, but just never played that char and never deleted it. The char technically is older than mine, yet I did not create my char with the intention to scam a player that I did not even know, it existed.
You see, it is not so easy to draw a line about what is impersonating in terms of players. For GMs you just need to say, whoever uses "GM", "NC", "=GM=" in their name, is breaking the rules. End of discussion.
For player names it is far more difficult.
If there was less emphasis on written policy and a greater emphasis on employing a littlke common sense and critical thinking, It shouldn't be hard for NCSoft with our help, to establish who is making toons to try and scam people.
Chat logs and general character behavior go a long way.
Honestly, I trust my friends more than I do an NCSoft employee. I would actually be less likely to believe that someone with GMwhatshisface as a name was GM then I would MrTeebOff was really me (Obviously I know it isnt me cause I m me, but you get the point). I am just glad that they changed the text so that you can actually tell the difference between certain characters.
Then you really don't get it. You have the option to trust your friends or not. That is entirely up to you. You are, however, obliged by the EULA to obey the commands of a GM.
It's a question of power. Your friend has no power over you. A GM does. That's the difference.
Honestly, I trust my friends more than I do an NCSoft employee. I would actually be less likely to believe that someone with GMwhatshisface as a name was GM then I would MrTeebOff was really me (Obviously I know it isnt me cause I m me, but you get the point). I am just glad that they changed the text so that you can actually tell the difference between certain characters.
Then you really don't get it. You have the option to trust your friends or not. That is entirely up to you. You are, however, obliged by the EULA to obey the commands of a GM.
It's a question of power. Your friend has no power over you. A GM does. That's the difference.
My friend can punch me in the face. The GMs cannot. My point though was that I wouldnt believe it was a GM unless they taked to me using the GM chat window.
who would you trust more?
1) a guy calling you on the phone saying he was the president of the united states and sounds like the president.
2) a guy calling you on the phone that sounds just like your friend and says he is your friend.
who would you trust more?
1) a guy calling you on the phone saying he was the president of the united states and sounds like the president.
He's a politician. I wouldn't trust him anyway. However, there is no rule that says I must obey the order of the President of the United States. A police officer, however, is another story. You must obey a legal order of a peace officer. That's why it is a crime to impersonate one.
2) a guy calling you on the phone that sounds just like your friend and says he is your friend.
I would but there are limits to friendship. Also, I don't lend L2 gear to people. Never have, never will; friend or not. I am not legally obligated to obey the order of a friend.
You're better off to just start working on getting some new gear.
Actually, you're probably better off announcing your disgust with the system and the policy by cancelling your account and playing someone else's game.
If enough people sick of lazy coders, incompetant, apathetic support staff and flagrant EULA-violations flaunted in the face of legitimate players and quit the game... perhaps someone with the actual authority to change things in the game will take notice and L2 will actually become something that's actually fun to play.
NCsoft has not and never will monitor scammers, if they did it would be contradictory. To successfully scam someone, a person is using thier intelligence to manipulate yours. You do not go complaining to your teacher in school, for example, because your classmate is smarter than you, or has figured out something faster than you. the same applies in L2. GMs are not your personal babysitters.
all the scamming complaints are quite annoying, i have never managed to be scammed once (although there have been a few almosts ;) ) keep your eyes open, watch what you purchase, sell or trade... and for gods sake dont advertise your gullibility to others if you do manage to get scammed! they may just take advantage of it :P
Scams - selling at a wrong price, selling using false advertising (stems as soul bow staves), even the name scam - all are legal and nothing will be done about them. I personally think scamming is simply lame and people who try it deserve to have their main delvld to lvl 4, but that is how it is, and I can understand the reasoning behind that decision. It simply would be too easy to exploit if the GMs gave you back your money/items.
And I really cannot understand how anybody can fall for a name scam in the first place. Everytime so far they tried it on me the scammer OBVIOUSLY typed from a script (always the same sentences) and had no idea about the English language. That alone would have been enough to warn me that this person definitely was NOT a clannie. And then the killer argument: WHY OH WHY would even a clannie want to have ALL my equipment? Especially on a naked alt? Even if it WAS a real clannie and I could talk to him on ventrilo/teamspeak, he better provide a good reason. Everytime a clannie wants to have a piece of equipment from me, I confirm it on ventrilo, and I double- and triple-check the trade window, who I am trading with and so on.
There is no reason to introduce rules or game mechanic changes to prevent scams. They can easily be avoided. If you fall for them, it really is your own fault. You definitely should be able to tell the difference between a clannie and somebody trying the name scam on you. Just do the extra effort and confirm it via clan chat, vent/ts or a pm back where you type the name of the other player yourself.