Is it me or does anyone else feel the brokenness of mage classes? I'm not one to complain about trivial things. Winning in pvp is not what I pvp for. Honestly, I really don’t care if I win or lose. I just want to have a chance. Here are just a few reasons why fighters have lost their chance to beat mages.
1) Tattoos -
Fighters have the ability to increase Str, Dex, Con, Wit. Mages have the ability to increase Str, Dex, Con, Int, Men (did they take out Wit?). Lets look at Wit vs. Dex. On the surface they are essentially the equivalent of each other. Looking deeper though we find that +4 Dex adds roughly 36 attack speed. +4 wit on the other hand adds roughly 100 magic attack speed. So mages have the ability to get over double the effectiveness of tattoos. The next issue with tattoos is the ability of mages to add con while fighters cannot add men. Con adds cp and hp which allows a mage to last longer during pvp. Adding to Con while taking away from Str does nothing to a mage. Men adds magic defense which would help fighters last longer during pvp. The problem is that fighters do not have the ability to add Men.
2. Equipment-
Lets start out with armor sets. Take a look at the set bonuses for dark crystal robes. +15% casting speed, +2 wit -2 men, +7 run speed, lowered chance of being interrupted, pdef +8%. Lets compare this to, heck, any light / heavy armor out there. First off look at attack speed. Are there any light/ heavy sets that add close to 15%? Tallum adds the most at 8%. Are there any sets that add +2 dex? Doom light adds +3 but then again lets look at how much speed that really adds. 3 X 9 = 27 attack speed with +3 dex. 2 X 25(?) = 50 magic attack speed with +2 wit. How about pdefense? Any fighter set get 8% or higher? There are a couple that get 5.25% but lets compare as we have before and find Mdefense bonus. Again we find that the highest mdefense bonus is 5.25% by avadon. I can go on to do run speed and the rest, but it is fairly pointless. Essentially Dark Crystal robes does more than 4 fighter sets put together.
Now on to weapons. First off, the difference between over enchanted weapons. A +9 homu sword has mattack of 146. A +0 SoM has mattack of 152. Remember that a Homu is not top C grade. A +9 emi has pattack of 431. A +3 BoP has pattack of 418. A +0 Soul Bow has Pattack of 528. Essentially a +9 emi(top C grade) is equal to a carnage bow(low A grade). A +9 homu(mid-high C grade) is equal to a +1 elemental sword (low A grade) and is only 6 mattack away from a SoM. So over enchanting mage weapons is better than over enchanting fighter weapons.
Next lets look at SAs on weapons. Lets look at attack speed again. Mage SA (Acumen) vs. Fighter SA (Haste). Acumen gives +15% no matter what grade of weapon. Highest lvl of haste on a weapon is the Kesh*Kesh(A grade) at +8% which is a little more than half of what mages get with acumen. Also note that both haste and acumen stack with armor and buffs. So think of the difference between the fastest fighter set up: tallum heavy(+8%) + kesh*kesh duals (+8%) and the fastest mage set up: dark crystal(+15%, +2wit) + any weapon with acumen (15%). Notice a slight difference?
3) Buffs -
Again lets keep the theme of speed. Mage buff(Acumen) vs. Fighter buff(Haste). Since I cannot officially say for sure we will have to go by intensity of buffs. Acumen 3(highest acumen) gets an intensity of 3. Haste 2(highest haste) gives an intensity of 2. What happened to Haste 3?
4) Soul vs. Spirit –
Lets look at what soul shots and spirit shots do for mages and fighters. Since a blessed spirit shot essentially doubles damage and a soul shot also essentially doubles damage we will compare the two. While soul shots ONLY add to attack power, blessed spirit shots also add to attack speed. Why do soul shots not add to attack speed? Or better yet, Why do blessed spirit shots add to attack speed?
I do have a few other points but i think this is enough for now. What I am asking for is not a nerf of mages. I am not asking for over powering of fighters. All I ask is that some balancing is done. Is that too much to ask?
You make alot of valid points when it comes to acumen verses haste on all levels.
I think there should be the same kinds of boosts on all lvls of haste/acumen.
But as far as Bsps and SS if you want the same kind of boost I suggest they implement BSS. Since sps and Bsps are available why not make SS and BSS available then if you want the extra boost you have to pay for it. Oh yes most people will, just like 99% of nukers use Bsps instead of sps.
Im a nuker and I am making this suggestion in the fareness of balance. Im sure there are a bunch of mages out there that would never want this to happen. I would have loved it if I could have gotten BSS when I played my glad double the damage and and deal it a bit faster. Im sure though my glad would still get owned by nukers. Mele should also get the opertunity for a no consiquence tat +4 Men -4 Int. Like we do +4int -4men.
The problem with +4 men is that the magic defense boost is hardly noticeable. +4 con on the other hand adds cp and hp. Fighters get placed in a tricky situation. Either max damage and sacrifice hp/cp or max hp/cp and loose damage dealing ability. Mages on the other hand do not loose much from -4 men but gain tons from +4 int and +4 wit. I am not saying that I wouldnt take +4 men... I am just saying that +4 men doesnt = +4 con.
MrTeedOff, you pass most parts of your sanity check. To clarify a little:
The reason Wit and Dex don't compare in effect is that Dex is a lot more like Men--a stat which has many small effects instead of one large effect. Wit is more easily (and, in terms of DPS, more accurately) compared to Str. I'm not saying this is fair or right, but that's how it's coded (both are largely specific to one stat and have a linear damage increase).
Yes, SA/sets give more in PvP to nukers than to weapon DD's. No, it's not really fair. In PvE, actually, it's not as far off as you'd think, but I'm probably off-topic with that.
Your OE weapons comparison, though, is horribly flawed. This is the part where your sanity check failed ;) Here's why:
The square root of MAtk is the important thing for nukers, not the MAtk itself. It's a key distinction, it means that each point of MAtk is less important than the last. Nukers actually gain less from overenchanting than melees, it just doesn't matter much in PvP since their casting speeds are linear, and there are many ways to raise casting speed significantly.
The soulshot vs spiritshot discussion is actually a little more complicated...spiritshots do double casting speed, but unlike almost every other cast-speed increase, they don't reduce the recharge time on spells. This may have, mistakenly, been used as the balancing factor to justify such an increase. I think there is a recent discussion about the idea of a "blessed soulshot", and balancing them actually was moderately complicated.
Well if we are talking about blessed SS for fighters then it should have same effects like bsps.x2 damage , x2 atack speed AND x4 chanse of landing physical skills.Like mage has 95% chanse to sleep/root/sloow with bsps so fighters should stun , daggers should land their skills with same 95% chanse.And imagine archers with x2 atack speed...
Well if we are talking about blessed SS for fighters then it should have same effects like bsps.x2 damage , x2 atack speed AND x4 chanse of landing physical skills.Like mage has 95% chanse to sleep/root/sloow with bsps so fighters should stun , daggers should land their skills with same 95% chanse.And imagine archers with x2 atack speed...
Please, check out the thread I mentioned. It's more complicated than that.
hmm isnt this comparing apples and oranges? would we like to have our melee classes be exactly equal to mage classes in all aspects exept they have armor and a melee weapon. sorry for the flame but these threads pop up all the time
Please, check out the thread I mentioned. It's more complicated than that.
I dont know if it was intended but landing sleep or other status efect depends on m atk versus m def.NOT square root of m atk.So mage has his m atk x4 with bsps when landing spell and targets m def just dont count in...
hmm isnt this comparing apples and oranges? would we like to have our melee classes be exactly equal to mage classes in all aspects exept they have armor and a melee weapon. sorry for the flame but these threads pop up all the time
This is not about making mages exactly the same as melee. I am just noting how unbalanced things are.
hmm isnt this comparing apples and oranges? would we like to have our melee classes be exactly equal to mage classes in all aspects exept they have armor and a melee weapon. sorry for the flame but these threads pop up all the time
Yes and as long as there continues to be such an inbalance they will continue to pop up.
It doesn't hurt to talk about this subject. Most of the time I believe this subject comes up because someone got owned in pvp. So they come here to vent thier frustration and state what they feel will help or fix the problem. Sometimes people have valid arguments and sometimes they are way out there. I still like to see different ideas and points of view.
5) Shields -
Before the addition of better shield buffs, mages used to block a physical attack about as often as some people say they crit. When the block did happen it would only reduce the damage that was done. Now days mages can have buffs that allow them to block fairly often (remember mages have no shield masterys and have generally low dex). One single critical shield block could totally turn a pvp. A critical shield block could essentially be compared to a failed mage attack. I can guarantee that a mage will do more critical shield blocks in a day then they will fail magic attacks in a year (fighting people within 15 lvls that is).
Yeah lots of this stuff has been mentioned. I still think that Mages do what they are supposed to do.
A Tank type melee (Most melee are this) are more or less a support or PvE class, tanking and hateing mobs. There is Gladiators, Destroyers, and Tyrants that seem to be the basic melee damage dealers. There is also the dagger users, which in C4 seem to have been fixed a bit...from my experiences so far anyway. I can have daggers kill me in one stab, and they don't seem to miss too much!
Most ranged classes in this game are all Damage Dealers. Nukers and Archers!
I think the core problem is, there are more (practically all) ranged DD instead of close combat DD. I really don't think they have to be nerfed. Play a tank type if you are more for PvE. Play a destroyer or gladiator type if you want more of a PvP melee character. Play a healer if you hate the sight of player blood. Play a summoner if you want the new best thing, and like sweet pets..with your own pocket party with some fair pvp. Play a necromancer if you want to be the new FOTM. Play a Nuker (Sorc, SH, SpS) if you want PvP. Play an archer if you want PvP, soloing, and exploring places quickly. Play a dagger if you want melee, sneeky, PvP...with some cool PvE, and nice advantages to get away with being chaotic (red).
I don't think I see all the classes as having to be PvP characters. IMO they are there to service different peoples play styles.
If you really want bSS, I guess that is fine with me. Seriously I wish being a mage that people sometimes just sold sps instead of bsps, because it could save me some cash...but it is hard to find. Granted bsps are better for pvp because they do 2x damage, just like the current SS...but whatever. I would just see the archer being the new FOTM, again, if this happened.
I can guarantee that a mage will do more critical shield blocks in a day then they will fail magic attacks in a year (fighting people within 15 lvls that is).
Actually, it seems that since C4 failed magic attacks have become quite common. At least the nukers I party with constantly moan about how many failed attacks they get, even on white and green mobs. Probably as many failed attacks as magic crits.
I can guarantee that a mage will do more critical shield blocks in a day then they will fail magic attacks in a year (fighting people within 15 lvls that is).
Actually, it seems that since C4 failed magic attacks have become quite common. At least the nukers I party with constantly moan about how many failed attacks they get, even on white and green mobs. Probably as many failed attacks as magic crits.
yes on mobs... but not in pvp. I have yet to have a mage fail an attack on me in pvp (within 15 lvls of me). Yet i still have trouble hitting mages at times (mages have evasion?).
We should stop talking about mobs that fail attacks or failed
attacks on mobs and start getting into some more PvP talking.
I don't want mages casting to be nerfed or changed, I'm into
boosting the melee classes.
The biggest problem I see at the moment is that evasion and
shield block are a lot stronger than magic resists and I think
that everyone knows what I'm talking about...
Let's see, I said I didn't want to nerf casting but I just can't get
around one thing, why can a mage evade a physical attack
while wearing a shield and even block the attacks that hit him?
Well it's because shields are far too powerful without shield
mastery. I don't want shields to become completely useless,
but I want shields to work for magic attacks too, if you got a
Shield Mastery!
On a 'Excellent Magic Shield Def' you reflect the spell to the
caster and on a 'Magic Shield Def' you only take half the
damage. Though this does only apply to Nuke, not to debuffs.
Though wearing a large and heavy shield, those without an
actual Shield Mastery should suffer a by far higher loss of
evasion and before I miss that point, excellent shield block
should get a base-chance that depends on your shield mastery.
Imagine you are a highly trained assasin, your reflexes are so
**** fast that with your natural instinct you can even evade
hits that come from behind while you are fighting several
enemies in front of you and arrows cutting through the air all
aimed at you. But then tehere is this mage that is hurling GIANT
fireballs at you and ur reflexes fail you. There is a cloud at the
sky which seems to be loaded up with energy, but u just aren't
able to partly dodge the lightening that strikes from above...
Kinda senseless, huh? What do you get evasion bonus for?
For [censored] I say...
Talking about Tattoos, where in the world is the point for a
mage to modify his strength? I see the point for Overlords and
Warcryer which after all got some Melee Strength, but there
just is no point for a real Nuking Class (those 'only Robe' ones)
to change their Strength! So make Nuking classes unable to
apply tattoos that affect their strength, it doesn't hamper there
casting abilities in any way, so it can't really be considered a
nerf to their class.
So what I would like to see:
Magic Shield Def
Magic Evasion
No Strength Tattoos for Nukers
No Excellent Shield Def without Shield Mastery
Higher Evasion Debuff when using a shield without Shield Mastery
Generally lower Shield Def and a Boost to Shield Mastery