What would you consider a hardcore server?

There have been people trying to argue for a 'hardcore' server where PvP is unlimited. Is that hardcore? How interesting is PvP when one player cheats and another player is playing fair? Hardly hardcore by my book. Hence I present my vision of what I think a truly hardcore server would be:

The hardcore server for truly hardworking grinders:
- Only 1 character slot per player, not 7 (scam here and everybody knows)
- No duoboxing allowed (only real players allowed)
- Only 1 account per Player
- Strict adherance to Ebaying issues. When GM's have reason to suspect somebody. The character is deleted. Yes this will result in innocents being deleted as well. Tough luck.
- To make melee classes interesting again: Shieldstuns, might mortal, evasion, aura flare all back. If a melee closes with a ranged char, that one is toast.
- No Bsoes, no greater healing potions, no greater hast/magic etc. If you want buffs, get yourself a buffer. If you want party return, get an EE. Otherwise to bad.
- Blesssed spiritshots out. Mages have it to easy now and this is hardcore.
- Cities remain safe zones

- Plus any PvP rules you like to implement. Personally I would like to see 1v1 PvP discouraged but group vs group PvP encouraged.

PERMADEATH!

PERMADEATH!

So everybody would play the exactly the same pvp god class. You expect to find anything else then nukers on that server?

There have been people trying to argue for a 'hardcore' server where PvP is unlimited. Is that hardcore? How interesting is PvP when one player cheats and another player is playing fair? Hardly hardcore by my book. Hence I present my vision of what I think a truly hardcore server would be:

The hardcore server for truly hardworking grinders:
- Only 1 character slot per player, not 7 (scam here and everybody knows)
- No duoboxing allowed (only real players allowed)
- Only 1 account per Player
- Strict adherance to Ebaying issues. When GM's have reason to suspect somebody. The character is deleted. Yes this will result in innocents being deleted as well. Tough luck.
- To make melee classes interesting again: Shieldstuns, might mortal, evasion, aura flare all back. If a melee closes with a ranged char, that one is toast.
- No Bsoes, no greater healing potions, no greater hast/magic etc. If you want buffs, get yourself a buffer. If you want party return, get an EE. Otherwise to bad.
- Blesssed spiritshots out. Mages have it to easy now and this is hardcore.
- Cities remain safe zones

- Plus any PvP rules you like to implement. Personally I would like to see 1v1 PvP discouraged but group vs group PvP encouraged.

That's a wickedly hellish server. I'd visit it :D

i would totaly reroll on that server, but i doubt we will se one. i realy like the idea tho.

PERMADEATH!

So everybody would play the exactly the same pvp god class. You expect to find anything else then nukers on that server?




You asked what would make a truly hardcore server. There is nothing that comes even close to being as hardcore as permadeath. And yes, I'd expect to see some healers, buffers and bladedancers at a minimum on a permadeath server.

A old SNES type game I played, just fighting with mobs would knock your armor off. That was loads of fun.

No ss,
no bsps,
no sps,
no bsoe,
no rez scrolls,
no brez,
no potions,
no healing potions,
PvP anywhere Cities included.

Dead bodies can be looted of any and all gear

When you die if no healer to rez (no release to town or hideawy option) you have say 5 to 10 minutes after death for a healer to get to you and rez you otherwise your body just decays and ALL items are left on the ground ie perma death.

All rezzes are 0% rezzes and even if you get a rez death automatically causes you to delevel weither your 5% into lvl or 99% into lvl.

If you perma die you have to wait 24 hours till you can re-roll a new character and anything on your old character is gone...bye bye, no more.

Lets see someone get high lvl in that situation. You want hardcore there you go.

TO THE THUNDERDOME!

To Men Enter... One Man Leaves :eek:

We hook up electronic shock pads to the corresponding person... If they aren't hooked up, you cant log in.

Naked Dark Elf chicks
Lots of ....

oh wait, you didn't mean that kind of hardcore. :D

- Only 1 character slot per player, not 7 (scam here and everybody knows)

I don't see why this would be hardcore or not. It is also unfair to players who might want to experience different aspects of the game.

- No duoboxing allowed (only real players allowed)

I would argue that that makes for more hardcore players.. players who are willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead. I can see your point in that it makes leveling easier but there are workarounds such as buying game cards and signing up with a different account. I don't think this makes for a hardcore server.

- Only 1 account per Player

Not good business sense.. what about the father who wants to buy his 2 sons accounts (and pay for them)

- Strict adherance to Ebaying issues. When GM's have reason to suspect somebody. The character is deleted. Yes this will result in innocents being deleted as well. Tough luck.

You assume that there isn't already as strict an adherance to these rules as one can get. I don't believe that NC looks upon this stuff with a jaundiced eye.

- To make melee classes interesting again: Shieldstuns, might mortal, evasion, aura flare all back. If a melee closes with a ranged char, that one is toast.

That's all fine but has nothing to do with a hardcore server.. it's just something you would like to see. And others of course.

- No Bsoes, no greater healing potions, no greater hast/magic etc. If you want buffs, get yourself a buffer. If you want party return, get an EE. Otherwise to bad.

Sure.. I think you are correct except for the healing potions, at least in PvE.

- Blesssed spiritshots out. Mages have it to easy now and this is hardcore.

That opens up a whole other can of worms including balance so I don't want to get started on that. Though the Olympiad doens't use BSPS so maybe you are on to something.

- Cities remain safe zones

No... in my version of a hardcore server there are many guards around but it is open hunting. IF you get killed by a guard you get a more severe penalty.

- Plus any PvP rules you like to implement. Personally I would like to see 1v1 PvP discouraged but group vs group PvP encouraged.

I'm the opposite... well. I don't want to see group discouraged but I love 1v1 so no agreement there... what about the ronin individual who is beyond kick ***?

Some of your suggestions are just suggestions to rectify things you see as injustices but put in the hardcore wrapping.. so sorry.. I can't go with it. Some are right on the money though.

My idea of a Hardcore server:

Pvp everywhere including cities (see above)
scamming allowed
griefing allowed
Pickpocketing certain items allowed
looting to a certain extent.
Some use of invisibility
ability to take contracts out on people.

PvP experience to actually get people to pvp. PvP rewards.

Keep in mind, this is my idea of a hardcore server... I however would not be playing on this becuase I'm a nancy boy :confused:

(and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise!!!! :mad: )

- Only 1 character slot per player, not 7 (scam here and everybody knows)

I don't see why this would be hardcore or not. It is also unfair to players who might want to experience different aspects of the game.
-
----> They can experience those aspects on other servers. You also have just one character to work with. No rerolls, no twinks. You have to earn your adana the hard way.

- No duoboxing allowed (only real players allowed)

I would argue that that makes for more hardcore players.. players who are willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead. I can see your point in that it makes leveling easier but there are workarounds such as buying game cards and signing up with a different account. I don't think this makes for a hardcore server.
-
------> The idea is to give everybody the same advantages. No shortcuts allowed. Duo boxing, ebaying etc are all shortcuts.

- Only 1 account per Player

Not good business sense.. what about the father who wants to buy his 2 sons accounts (and pay for them)
-
------> They can play on other servers.

- Strict adherance to Ebaying issues. When GM's have reason to suspect somebody. The character is deleted. Yes this will result in innocents being deleted as well. Tough luck.

You assume that there isn't already as strict an adherance to these rules as one can get. I don't believe that NC looks upon this stuff with a jaundiced eye.
-
------> Yes I am. But in this case, they have it much more easier, they get suspicious? delete the character.

- To make melee classes interesting again: Shieldstuns, might mortal, evasion, aura flare all back. If a melee closes with a ranged char, that one is toast.

That's all fine but has nothing to do with a hardcore server.. it's just something you would like to see. And others of course.
-
-------> I am tying to give people a reason to play something else then a nuker.

- Cities remain safe zones

No... in my version of a hardcore server there are many guards around but it is open hunting. IF you get killed by a guard you get a more severe penalty.
-
----------> And I like to see a place where people can have a market. I dont see any problem with safe zones.

- Plus any PvP rules you like to implement. Personally I would like to see 1v1 PvP discouraged but group vs group PvP encouraged.

I'm the opposite... well. I don't want to see group discouraged but I love 1v1 so no agreement there... what about the ronin individual who is beyond kick ***?
-
--------> That is what you see on the current server and we all know the answer to that one.

Some of your suggestions are just suggestions to rectify things you see as injustices but put in the hardcore wrapping.. so sorry.. I can't go with it. Some are right on the money though.
-
--------> This is they way i envision a hardcore server. In my vision, no cheating is allowed, no shortcuts, no easy way out. Everybody plays the game with the same set of rules. You have to earn things the hard way. True grind. The PvP aspect is something that can be adapted to peoples taste. But all out PvP is not hardcore per se if one person cheated his way into gear and levels and the others did not.

My idea of a Hardcore server:

Pvp everywhere including cities (see above)
scamming allowed
griefing allowed
Pickpocketing certain items allowed
looting to a certain extent.
Some use of invisibility
ability to take contracts out on people.

PvP experience to actually get people to pvp. PvP rewards.

Keep in mind, this is my idea of a hardcore server... I however would not be playing on this becuase I'm a nancy boy :confused:

(and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise!!!! :mad: )



The difference between your and mine model is that in my model, if somebody scams/pk's/griefs/picpocket you, you will know who did it and can take revenge in any way you please. You cant hide. That in my book is hardcore as well. Do the crime, pay the time.

I feel that a "hardcore" server has more to do with very brutal pvp and less to do with catching cheaters.

Because one would want to catch cheaters on any server if one were so inclined.

As far as mages or melee... that, again.. has nothign to do with it being hardcore but more to do with what people consider "balanced". And I am now convinced that NC likes the current system as they do not see melee as the damage dealers in the game (keep in mind this is coming from a nuker who is going melee for his subclass).

As far as a place where there could be a market.. that is why I say more guards.. and real "good" guards. This way if a market is taken out, it is because the attacker really wanted or needed to make the hit and is now under a lot of pressure to get out before he/she dies and then takes a bigger penalty to the guards.

So again, the idea of making sure that people don't cheat is nice and admirable but I don't feel that in and of itself makes it "hardcore". At least not to my definition.

Sounds to me what you really want is to get rid of cheaters, make melee balanced with ranged, make it so duo boxing is not legal (or in your example not doable).

These have all been separate subjects that have not come under a more hardcore ruleset but just under their own "cheaters/ebayers need to be dealt with, melee needs to be balanced, Duo boxing is unfair and destroys parties.

Even though I feel your suggestion comes from a very passionate place I can't help but feel that you want to deal with all of these issues by wrapping them in what seems like a hardcore ruleset but is really something else.

Now... your ideas of no potions or BSOES does come under the idea of a more hardcore ruleset, at least as I see it.

So.. let's say that dealing with bots, ebayers, melee balance, scammers/cheaters is not on the table.

What else do you suggest to make the game more hardcore in its pvp play? :D

The difference between your and mine model is that in my model, if somebody scams/pk's/griefs/picpocket you, you will know who did it and can take revenge in any way you please. You cant hide. That in my book is hardcore as well. Do the crime, pay the time.

I'm sorry Woodsman, I didn't really read this carefully as I'm a bit tired.

I would say that one doesn't even need to go to any other lengths other than:

you have been pickpocketed (looted whatever) by Sovrath

And yeah.. sure.. that would be hardcore

No ss,
no bsps,
no sps,
no bsoe,
no rez scrolls,
no brez,
no potions,
no healing potions,
PvP anywhere Cities included.

Dead bodies can be looted of any and all gear

When you die if no healer to rez (no release to town or hideawy option) you have say 5 to 10 minutes after death for a healer to get to you and rez you otherwise your body just decays and ALL items are left on the ground ie perma death.

All rezzes are 0% rezzes and even if you get a rez death automatically causes you to delevel weither your 5% into lvl or 99% into lvl.

If you perma die you have to wait 24 hours till you can re-roll a new character and anything on your old character is gone...bye bye, no more.

Lets see someone get high lvl in that situation. You want hardcore there you go.

For instance, this seems to fall under the whole hardcore thing to my thinking.

Also.. if not permadeath then a limited amount of deaths before you have to reroll (though I feel that that would be an even more "boutique" type rule as most players are not into perma death if it is a character that requires cultivation... still very hardcore)

Sovrath

In my model I want the players to really have to earn the right to be where they are. That means catching cheaters and making sure that everybody playes the game with the same rulesets. It wont allow people to have more then 1 account active on the server for example. The grind will be tough for everybody and once you made a certain level you have earned it without shortcuts.

That is hardcore for PvE. Which makes certain that PvP will be more hardcore as well, as every player have to work hard to be as tough as he can be. So nobody can gain an advantage by buying 5 accounts and run fast leveling trains. Or to have always your SE buffbot at your side.

You want a buffbot, you have to find a player who is playing an healer and willing to buff you. No shortcuts here with healers in a box or bottle. A healer is the real thing or no healer.

If you have that as a Core for your game, then you can setup a number of PvP conditions to your own liking for a hardcore PvP environment.

But without a solid Core, you have no way of making the game truly hardcore by my book.

I understand what you are saying but I feel that some of your offering does touch on other subjects that are inflamatory at best.

Ok. .no buffbots.. fair enough and I understand that. However.. what of people who have clan halls with buffs as opposed to people who dont have them? Heck.. you almost don't need a bufbot with a clan hall. Would you then say anyone can have access to a clan hall to keep things on a level playing field?

I accept the idea of "knowing" who scammed you. That seems right.

Again, the melee/mage thing is another argument. But I don't think that NC wants them balanced (my new conclusion) anymore than they want a buffer balanced against a Tyrant. So ok.. change the ruleset to make them more balanced.. I understand the reasoning but I don't think that that is the nature of something being hardcore though one could extract a Hardcore server from that.

EQ2 has recently announced that they are adding PvP servers. In order to make it so that things are balanced they have added Taunts to PvP (like hate) and extended the range of the melee strike. But that is more a balance for PvP.

I suppose what I'm saying is that you have a great desire to make a level playing field and more power to that. I just thnk that you can apply some of your ideas to regular or relaxed servers and they would still work. But they wouldn't make it Hardcore.

But I do understand that what you are saying is that if there were a Hardcore server you would "want" (demand?) that everything be on an even keel.

My question to you is this... Would you actually play on such a server or is this just for the sake of discussion?

You want a buffbot, you have to find a player who is playing an healer and willing to buff you.

The only problem with this is nobody would want to play a healer.
Why play a healer if MM and evasion return, bringing back the c2 daggers?
Why play a healer when there are nukers/archers that could two-shot you?
And most importantly, why play a healer when pretty much all you are is a walking armory, due to pickpocketing/ looting/ whatever?
I'm gonna have to agree with Sov and say my view of a hardcore server would be more brutal pvp inclined :p

PERMADEATH!

Na 2 hour death penalty. No one is gonna dish money out for a one char kill.

There have been people trying to argue for a 'hardcore' server where PvP is unlimited. Is that hardcore? How interesting is PvP when one player cheats and another player is playing fair? Hardly hardcore by my book. Hence I present my vision of what I think a truly hardcore server would be:

The hardcore server for truly hardworking grinders:
- Only 1 character slot per player, not 7 (scam here and everybody knows)
- No duoboxing allowed (only real players allowed)
- Only 1 account per Player
- Strict adherance to Ebaying issues. When GM's have reason to suspect somebody. The character is deleted. Yes this will result in innocents being deleted as well. Tough luck.
- To make melee classes interesting again: Shieldstuns, might mortal, evasion, aura flare all back. If a melee closes with a ranged char, that one is toast.
- No Bsoes, no greater healing potions, no greater hast/magic etc. If you want buffs, get yourself a buffer. If you want party return, get an EE. Otherwise to bad.
- Blesssed spiritshots out. Mages have it to easy now and this is hardcore.
- Cities remain safe zones

- Plus any PvP rules you like to implement. Personally I would like to see 1v1 PvP discouraged but group vs group PvP encouraged.

All that has nothing to do with hardcore and all to do with some peoples pet peeves. Are you trying to tell me someone willing to leve 2 chars so they have access to buffs all the time is less hardcore than someone who wants to level just 1?
Sorry, this doesnt fly. Not only would it make the game intolerably boring for those of us that like to solo but also will be impossible to enforce. Whatever barriers you can imagine to prevent someone from creating 2 accounts, theres a way around it.

I understand what you are saying but I feel that some of your offering does touch on other subjects that are inflamatory at best.

Ok. .no buffbots.. fair enough and I understand that. However.. what of people who have clan halls with buffs as opposed to people who dont have them? Heck.. you almost don't need a bufbot with a clan hall. Would you then say anyone can have access to a clan hall to keep things on a level playing field?

Hmm good point. A clan hall should give an edge, but not that big an edge. Easiest solution is no more buffs in clanhouse.

I accept the idea of "knowing" who scammed you. That seems right.

Again, the melee/mage thing is another argument. But I don't think that NC wants them balanced (my new conclusion) anymore than they want a buffer balanced against a Tyrant. So ok.. change the ruleset to make them more balanced.. I understand the reasoning but I don't think that that is the nature of something being hardcore though one could extract a Hardcore server from that.

Well it is my desire to see all classes represented on a PvP server, not just the ranged melees. Not strictly necesary but highly desirable. You have to admit that for a ranged to fear the might of the melee would be refreshing for both sides.

But I do understand that what you are saying is that if there were a Hardcore server you would "want" (demand?) that everything be on an even keel.

My question to you is this... Would you actually play on such a server or is this just for the sake of discussion?

No way, I am a very casual player and for PvP I am not cut out. I even manage to lose with a nuker from a melee! But if there is ever going to be a true PvP server, I like to see it one where the winner can say proudly he deserved to win.

The only problem with this is nobody would want to play a healer.
Why play a healer if MM and evasion return, bringing back the c2 daggers?
Why play a healer when there are nukers/archers that could two-shot you?
And most importantly, why play a healer when pretty much all you are is a walking armory, due to pickpocketing/ looting/ whatever?
I'm gonna have to agree with Sov and say my view of a hardcore server would be more brutal pvp inclined :p

If almost nobody plays a healer then the side who has one to give them the buffs to be truly powerfull has a big edge dont they?

A nuker is good and fine, a nuker with buffs is scary as Shiliens tomb.

Mind, that I aim for a server where group vs group PvP is encouraged. As group vs group PvP is that one element that is best implemented on Li2. And imo the most interesting part of PvP. It requires more strategy and is mnore complex and diverse then 1v1

All that has nothing to do with hardcore and all to do with some peoples pet peeves. Are you trying to tell me someone willing to leve 2 chars so they have access to buffs all the time is less hardcore than someone who wants to level just 1?
Sorry, this doesnt fly. Not only would it make the game intolerably boring for those of us that like to solo but also will be impossible to enforce. Whatever barriers you can imagine to prevent someone from creating 2 accounts, theres a way around it.

You are missing the point. Not every player has acces to multiple acconts. So allowing multiple accounts per player would give those who have them an edge that says nothing about their skills to grind fast and PvP smart. True hardcore is no shortcuts.

Also true hardcore is your healer against my mage, no clothing, just a butter knife in hand... come here you pansy! rawr!

Also true hardcore is your healer against my mage, no clothing, just a butter knife in hand... come here you pansy! rawr!

Butter Knife! Meh! In Prelude we used Spoons... DULL Spoons!

Also true hardcore is your healer against my mage, no clothing, just a butter knife in hand... come here you pansy! rawr!

Butter Knife! Meh! In Prelude we used Spoons... DULL Spoons!



Let me guess it was snowing as well and you had to walk to the dueling uphill all the time? We have grown soft.

Also true hardcore is your healer against my mage, no clothing, just a butter knife in hand... come here you pansy! rawr!

Butter Knife! Meh! In Prelude we used Spoons... DULL Spoons!



Let me guess it was snowing as well and you had to walk to the dueling uphill all the time? We have grown soft.



Oh... you were there too? ;)

All that has nothing to do with hardcore and all to do with some peoples pet peeves. Are you trying to tell me someone willing to leve 2 chars so they have access to buffs all the time is less hardcore than someone who wants to level just 1?
Sorry, this doesnt fly. Not only would it make the game intolerably boring for those of us that like to solo but also will be impossible to enforce. Whatever barriers you can imagine to prevent someone from creating 2 accounts, theres a way around it.

You are missing the point. Not every player has acces to multiple acconts. So allowing multiple accounts per player would give those who have them an edge that says nothing about their skills to grind fast and PvP smart. True hardcore is no shortcuts.



Every player has access to multiple accounts. Its whether or not they wish to spend the money for the hardware/subscriptions to make it a reality.

That isn't really cheating. I agree that its a huge advantage but it does not violate any of the rules of the game.

It is wrong in the eyes of the Lord... It is written "Thou shalt not cheat nor double box for it is a bad thing and stuff"

Rusty dull spoons. With no handle.

My version of hardcore :

1) There should be real life gears comes in the box that owner can wear when they buy a L2 Box.

2) Instead of using key board and mouse, NCSoft should develope a machine that detec motion like those dancing machine u found in Entertainment Center.

In this way, during PVP, a player can really "slash" all he want with actual motion. Not to mention it is a good form of exercise.

3) A tread mill should be used when toon is running.

4) No teleport allowed. All GKs must be removed.

5) Players dun drop gear with ench +6 and above(like those in MUOnline ^^)

PERMADEATH!

So everybody would play the exactly the same pvp god class. You expect to find anything else then nukers on that server?



Actually nukers without Blessed SpS are nothing compared to other classes.

Every player has access to multiple accounts. Its whether or not they wish to spend the money for the hardware/subscriptions to make it a reality.

That isn't really cheating. I agree that its a huge advantage but it does not violate any of the rules of the game.

But the fact is that not everybody can and will buy more computers and spend enough money to buy extra accounts. This edge is limited by non game related issues. Such as more money means being able to buy more accounts. So it is an shortcut and not allowed in my vision of the hardcore server.

On this server (not normal servers or other alternative servers) it is about the individual prowess of a single toon that counts. His ability to make friends, grind efficient, form a strong alliance.

PERMADEATH!

So everybody would play the exactly the same pvp god class. You expect to find anything else then nukers on that server?



Actually nukers without Blessed SpS are nothing compared to other classes.



Ok now lets be honest, would you play a dwarf on a server with permadeath? Or a healer? So who will give you the blessed spiritshots and the buffs you so much crave?

Would you play on such a server?

It is wrong in the eyes of the Lord... It is written "Thou shalt not cheat nor double box for it is a bad thing and stuff"

It is on my vision of the hardcore server ;)