Many complain about the overpoweredness of mages in L2. Here's some possible fixes.
1. Add an Mdef stat to sheilds, so that you can block a non-aoe nuke spell the same way you block a melee attack.
2. Lower 1-handed mage weapon matk by about 20%, just like 1-handed fighter weapon patk vs. 2-handed fighter weapon patk.
3. Allow any non-AoE nuke spell to be evaded just like an archer attack, only with high accuracy - like a blunt-using archer basically.
4. Also, every other class in the game has a stat that they cannot mod...why should nukers be special. Nukers should lose either str or men from their mod list. Not both...all classes can mod 5/6 stats, nukers currently have 6/6...that's just wrong. Either that or just give all classes 6/6.
5. Add the anti-magic passive to ALL classes. Why should only mages be able to take a hit from a mage? Mages get pdef mastery, so why don't fighters get mdef mastery?
6. BSPS & SPS are overpowered. Don't think so? Then why isn't BSPS allowed in the olympiad?
SS = 2x damage = 2x dps
SPS = 1.5x damage 2x speed = 3x dps
BSPS = 2x damage 2x speed = 4x dps
Fix it like this:
SS = 2x damage = 2x dps
SPS = 1.25x damage 1.25x speed = ~1.5x dps
BSPS = 1.5x damage 1.5x speed = ~2x dps
I would suggest that SS provide a physical attack speed boost and a reduction to the cooldown of physical skills the same as BSPS. This would solve part of the problem faced by Melees as far as being able to unload their high damage attacks in a quicker amount of time to have comparable short-term dps.
I would also suggest that all classes can use all of their skills with their primary weapons. (This is for the Gladiators and Destroyers out there.)
Gladiators need to be looked at as well because the charge/discharge system is inherently clunky and takes far too long to convert MP into Damage (and not even overly impressive damage at that).
These changes would pave the way to archer domination though. They really need to just overhaul the distinct advantage that all ranged has over melee.
High DPS + 900 Range > Poor DPS + 0 Range
The added defense of heavy armor is not really that noticeable compared to light armor (100 p.def difference). Most of the melee fighters don't have any additional defense against magic so end up with m.def scores below 600 even with top jewels.
So your solutions solve half of the problem but at least its a start. Not that I think they'll do it... this game is a mix of design philosophies. Its the class balance of D&D (ie. virtually none) that claims to be about PVP but is focused on timesink/grind gameplay. Its like they changed their mind 3-4 times while making the game as to what they really wanted to do. Luckily the graphics are amazing...
Drakonic Bow with focus. Leave mages alone or deal with that too imo.
I have yet to see that weap, whats the +focus amount?
oh and on that bows should just have alot lower crit to begin with... how do u make a critical (a attack that hits a low shielded part of the body) with a bow at 900 feet??? Shouldn't a sword swinging at close range have the ablility to crit more?
adds either 62 or 82... don't remember off the top of my head... but it is insane to touch acumen or anything else about mages while this bow in the game.
true. focus is fine, just lower bows base crit rate.
It just comes back to the problem range>melee in this game. The thing is archers are a little lower on the choping block becuase melee actually have a chance against them since they have decent defense against it
Drac bow is +88 crit rate, higher than any other focus SA in the game.
As for the DPS of archer...it's actually lower than the DPS of any melee DD because of the refire delay. The big kicker is that, as you said, an archer can do it at 900 range and runs fast, so he can STAY at 900 range.
As for the gladi charge-up, personally I think it needs to stay. Gladi specials do equal, if not more damage than my specials as a dagger, and they have like 5x my staying power AND their specials don't miss AND they have ranged versions AND they have AoE...if they could throw them as often or as easily as I throw mine...I'd cry. :'(
Also, as a gladi on the PTS, I'd rather not be able to use all skills with BOTH main weapons. Many people seem to think that all gladis MUST use duals. I can't tell you how many dual-using gladis I beat on the PTS with my Blunt+Sheild Gladi. Sheild+Blunt+Stun+Fatal Strike > Duals+TSS, nuf said.
And the added pdef of heavy armor IS a huge difference, in light I have about 600pdef, an equal level tank has close to 1k...almost double mine = about 1/2 as much damage.
And that's BEFORE you consider sheilds...
However the pdef difference between light and robes IS only marginal...which I think is a travesty. If I don't get mdef+ passives, mages shouldn't get pdef+ passives. Make their pdef as gimp as my mdef is, please. Or give me some reasonable mdef!
Drac bow is +88 crit rate, higher than any other focus SA in the game.
As for the DPS of archer...it's actually lower than the DPS of any melee DD because of the refire delay. The big kicker is that, as you said, an archer can do it at 900 range and runs fast, so he can STAY at 900 range.
As for the gladi charge-up, personally I think it needs to stay. Gladi specials do equal, if not more damage than my specials as a dagger, and they have like 5x my staying power AND their specials don't miss AND they have ranged versions AND they have AoE...if they could throw them as often or as easily as I throw mine...I'd cry. :'(
Also, as a gladi on the PTS, I'd rather not be able to use all skills with BOTH main weapons. Many people seem to think that all gladis MUST use duals. I can't tell you how many dual-using gladis I beat on the PTS with my Blunt+Sheild Gladi. Sheild+Blunt+Stun+Fatal Strike > Duals+TSS, nuf said.
And the added pdef of heavy armor IS a huge difference, in light I have about 600pdef, an equal level tank has close to 1k...almost double mine = about 1/2 as much damage.
There's your problem. You're comparing a light class to a heavy class.
I compared a gladiator in Light Armor to a gladiator in Heavy Armor. I've done the same comparisons with a Warcryer since both classes have the masteries.
Heavy Armor doesn't add significantly more p.def when you can wear either type. The p.def number might go up by a bit but if you look at the actual change in damage taken its not that impressive.
I'm fairly sure that Archer DPS is far higher then melee DPS. I know Archers could easily kill most mobs much faster then my gladiator or my windrider on PTS with a equal crystal value weapon.
As far as Gladis and duals. Your argument is equivalent of saying that Mages can only cast sleep when they're carrying a book and can only cast nukes when they're using a staff. Even with the additional skills they wouldn't be overpowering and it would help balance the class out. I don't even play one and I feel bad for them now that I've tried playing one on test.
Believe me, I played a dagger on test as well so I feel sorry for them now as well. The land rate of their specials is ridiculously low (especially when compared to the % of mana that's required to attempt them) and they stand almost no chance against any ranged class unless they start out behind the ranged class and preferably the ranged player is AFK getting a drink or something. Its not that bad but it was virtually impossible to kill a ranged DD in a siege environment. The only thing that I can think of that would really even out this class is to let their PVE skills function against players... ie silent step/veil/etc make the player invisible to players as well as mobs so they can get the drop on others.
I don't know how well minor tweaks will work honestly. The system is so flawed in its basic design due to being PVE centric (and even then not balanced in that regard) that I don't know if subtle changes would solve the problem. We all know that Korea doesn't care anyway.
right now only tanks get mdef passives besides mages...and the mage mdef passives are MUCH better.
Also, about archer DPS again, the main reason archer seem to kill faster is that they don't have to run about to pull mobs, or run up to them to attack them.
Think about it: Archer has 4x my patk, same crit rate, same accuracy, has 1/4 my attack speed...that would be equal DPS.
Now add in the refire delay.
Archers have less DPS than daggers. Their crits are just more impressive taken one at a time, and their range saves them a lot of time and getting beat on.
And I actually like the state of my dagger now in C4, ty.
But as for glads, think about it. How rare are blunt-using glads right now? Now think of how much rarer they'd be if dual-users could use all the blunt-glads skills.
I like the fact that the glad class has 3 distinct play-styles: duals+light, duals+heavy, blunt+sheild+heavy.
Please don't take that away from the class.
I you think, many other classes have multi-playstyles. Orc mystic and prophets can wear ANY armor. Healers can wear light or robes, all non-nukers mages can use ANY weapon. Destroyers can use pretty much any gear set-up with varying success. Dwarves also have 2-3 gear setups available.
I too have long wondered why mage attacks can't be dodged. When they shoot you, they know its going to hit. Add that to bonkers casting speed and its just too easy for them.
As for the Drakonic bow... I think its looney tunes too, but to say that nothing else should be fixed until a bow that a very small percentage of people willever have much less get the SA is kinda wacko.
I have no hope for things ever getting better. WTB C5 patch notes... lol God, I wish they would at least TRY some new stuff on the freakin test server and see how it goes. Maybe they do in Korea who knows, but here the test server is a complete joke.
I think mages acumen severly needs to be retooled to the effect like haste. Already there is a sps with a cast speed over 1k. To me that is by no means fair. There are few classes in the game that can reach over 1k in atk spd and thats what a destroyer?
no kidding. Im a sws. I am supposed to have the highest mdef in the game. Lotta good that does when the nuker is hitting me for 1k in damage per second. FYI the nuker was 1 level above me.
The only thing that I can think of that would really even out this class is to let their PVE skills function against players... ie silent step/veil/etc make the player invisible to players as well as mobs so they can get the drop on others.
oh, BTW as a funny side-note, veil does work on players. It just has no effect. I can cast veil on someone and it WILL stick, and it WILL show up on their buffbar as a debuff...it just has no effect. I thought that was pretty funny when I found out. :P
I think it should work something like it does on mobs. Once you're veiled it would decrease your NPC/PC/Terrain range down to like 0 or so...so you'd only be able to see about 5 feet in front of you. And you wouldn't be able to target anything. The effect would wear off as soon as anything hit you (like sleep).
But as for glads, think about it. How rare are blunt-using glads right now? Now think of how much rarer they'd be if dual-users could use all the blunt-glads skills.
I like the fact that the glad class has 3 distinct play-styles: duals+light, duals+heavy, blunt+sheild+heavy.
You forgot one (or two, depending on how you look at it): ever seen a glad in heavy or light with a 2h sword? Pretty cool stuff.
Nah, I don't really count that style because IMO it's much weaker than the other 3. You lose all the power of duals, and don't gain the defense from stun+sheild.
here is another funny side note... bosses drop jewlry that pwn mages... go raid antqueen/oprhen/baium/antharas get a full jewlry set... and see what a mage can do to you... not a thing... y don't they drop a robe that had 10k pdef and arrow resist passive?
If you'd looked at that jewelry, it's just as uber on a mage as it is on a melee. That jewelry's just frikkin uber.
Besides, unless I'm an ally/clan leader I'm never gonna see a peice of jewelry that spawns on a BOSS (not raid boss, but BOSS) monster with a respawn of like a week.
1 Boss respawn per week + 52 weeks in a year = 52 sets of jewels a year. Lineage supposedly supported until 2012 = 312 sets of jewels. About enough to outfit ONE alliance....yeah, like I'm ever gonna TOUCH any of those...or like YOU are for that matter.
While those are all nice suggestions, I don't think it fixes the underlying issue...which may not be fixable. Range is a huge advantage in L2 because everyone is unbearably slow. If there were a reasonable chance that a melee character could close before the mage could complete his second spell, do you think we'd be having any of these problems?
Or the problems with archers? ...which, although your suggestions are fairly well thought out, would become worse if they were implimented...
I do like your suggestions, for the most part. A couple of them seem so obvious, I have to wonder why it's not already designed that way.
The soul/spirtshot design is missing some key details, but the basic idea is good.
The OP had some good ideas first dodging magic attacks should be implimented after all if someone tosses a fireball at you why couldn't you get out of the way? Secondly why the hell is SPS increase m attack speed? It shouldn't at all or at least do the same with SS. Allowing mages to alter all 6 stats and fighters only 5 is flat out ******ed. Why can't a melle learn Men while a mage can learn strength con and dex. Should go the same if melee can not alter MEN mages shouldn't be able to alter Con or both should be able to alter everything. Everyone should have realized by this time that Defense does not balance offense thats why tanks get owned in pvp and why nukers and archers with the highest attack powers in the game own everyone else. Yes the range helps but being aura flared to death in 5 seconds in c3 range wouldn't have mattered. Let me put it another way when using UD my P defense is around 5000 and my m defense close to 4000 but I still take 100-300 damage from mages attacks and about 100 damage from archers. Raid bosses don't do that much damage to me. Heck last time I fought antharas on my bounty hunter whom is 20 level lower then antharas she only took 4000 damage a hit from antharas! In another seige on my 65 WS I took 8970 damage from a nuker yes that was a crit but still thats double the damage a boss mob is doing and a m crit is only 4 time the reg damage so 1/4 of that is 2250 about. So there is a nuker out there that can hit for half of what antharas can hit for!!!! The real way you balance out this game is by altering the offense/defense formula
very good ideas here. The important thing to note is that these should not all be implemented at once. I don't want to see a nerf. I want to see balance.
I can see a problem with #3 though. As an archer, while xping, I can end up missing a mob (lower level) up to 6 times in a row. I know I have more hp than a mage does, so I could see that totally owning mages in pve.
I can see a problem with #3 though. As an archer, while xping, I can end up missing a mob (lower level) up to 6 times in a row. I know I have more hp than a mage does, so I could see that totally owning mages in pve.
Well, I put there that mages spells would be high-accuracy attacks, like a blunt weapon. So, in theory, they would miss very little. However, there's always gonna be the "lucky" mage that manages to pull off 6 misses in a row and get smoked...or they can just thrown down an AOE or two, or a sleep, a sleep cloud, or whatever. Mages have plenty of ways of keeping themselves alive outside of pdef. They'd be fine.
I can see a problem with #3 though. As an archer, while xping, I can end up missing a mob (lower level) up to 6 times in a row. I know I have more hp than a mage does, so I could see that totally owning mages in pve.
Well, I put there that mages spells would be high-accuracy attacks, like a blunt weapon. So, in theory, they would miss very little. However, there's always gonna be the "lucky" mage that manages to pull off 6 misses in a row and get smoked...or they can just thrown down an AOE or two, or a sleep, a sleep cloud, or whatever. Mages have plenty of ways of keeping themselves alive outside of pdef. They'd be fine.
While those are all nice suggestions, I don't think it fixes the underlying issue...which may not be fixable. Range is a huge advantage in L2 because everyone is unbearably slow. If there were a reasonable chance that a melee character could close before the mage could complete his second spell, do you think we'd be having any of these problems?
Or the problems with archers? ...which, although your suggestions are fairly well thought out, would become worse if they were implimented...
I do like your suggestions, for the most part. A couple of them seem so obvious, I have to wonder why it's not already designed that way.
The soul/spirtshot design is missing some key details, but the basic idea is good.
It casting speed wasn't so out of control it would even things out alot and work well with the other suggestions here.
Honestly I don't think archers are too bad right now. Drakonic bow aside, they aren't nearly as bad as nukers.
right now only tanks get mdef passives besides mages...and the mage mdef passives are MUCH better.
Don't know if anyone said this...I honestly tried to read it all, but it is late. So before I forget, might mdef rely on MEN? As in the higher your MEN is, the higher the effect of the m.def passives? Nukers have much higher men then tanks, so proportionally it would seem right. E.G increase = 10% of your men, so for a Orc Mystic Mdef passive would boost mdef 4.2 (base men of 42) While on a DE assassin the mdef boost would be 2.6 (base men of 26).
right now only tanks get mdef passives besides mages...and the mage mdef passives are MUCH better.
Don't know if anyone said this...I honestly tried to read it all, but it is late. So before I forget, might mdef rely on MEN? As in the higher your MEN is, the higher the effect of the m.def passives? Nukers have much higher men then tanks, so proportionally it would seem right. E.G increase = 10% of your men, so for a Orc Mystic Mdef passive would boost mdef 4.2 (base men of 42) While on a DE assassin the mdef boost would be 2.6 (base men of 26).
right now only tanks get mdef passives besides mages...and the mage mdef passives are MUCH better.
Don't know if anyone said this...I honestly tried to read it all, but it is late. So before I forget, might mdef rely on MEN? As in the higher your MEN is, the higher the effect of the m.def passives? Nukers have much higher men then tanks, so proportionally it would seem right. E.G increase = 10% of your men, so for a Orc Mystic Mdef passive would boost mdef 4.2 (base men of 42) While on a DE assassin the mdef boost would be 2.6 (base men of 26).
good point....except fighters cant add to MEN. It really all goes back to the tattoo point.
****, where's Taraza? According to him, SwS are the be all end all of melee domination in pvp against mages. To roughly quote him: "They're called SWS. Learn to use them".
Guess he should read Darian's post. As far as archers being slow...my friend played a hawkeye and had same atk speed as my paladin in the 40's with her buffs and haste, using emi.
And she hit like a freaking truck.
I can see a problem with #3 though. As an archer, while xping, I can end up missing a mob (lower level) up to 6 times in a row. I know I have more hp than a mage does, so I could see that totally owning mages in pve.
Well, I put there that mages spells would be high-accuracy attacks, like a blunt weapon. So, in theory, they would miss very little. However, there's always gonna be the "lucky" mage that manages to pull off 6 misses in a row and get smoked...or they can just thrown down an AOE or two, or a sleep, a sleep cloud, or whatever. Mages have plenty of ways of keeping themselves alive outside of pdef. They'd be fine.
One of the more balanced mages is the Warcryer. Reasonable offense... reasonable defense... pretty much has to fight fully buffed and that takes all of their mana to achieve and only one of their spells is direct damage and its no where near as potent as a nuker (and not mana efficient enough to use constantly in PVE).
The major reason they're kept in check is the fact that their spells can miss.. (alot) and that BSPS/SPS does nothing to double the damage of their primary PVE damage spells (bleed/poison).
There are people that are going to claim they're overpowered but a warcryer in any kind of extended confrontation will get destroyed due to mana inefficiency... they can't buff themselves and then immediately fight and their primary offensive spell in PVP (steal essence) takes far too much mana to effectively kill multiple opponents.
It still seems to boil down to the fact that the game isn't designed to be balanced in the slightest. They designed a PVE game (which isn't even balanced properly) and then decided they'd let everyone fight one another.
6. BSPS & SPS are overpowered. Don't think so? Then why isn't BSPS allowed in the olympiad?
SS = 2x damage = 2x dps
SPS = 1.5x damage 2x speed = 3x dps
BSPS = 2x damage 2x speed = 4x dps
As far as I know, this is wrong. sps and bsps indeed increase cast speed, but they do not influence skill recharge time. Since the recharge starts right when you start casting the spell, the overall dps is not increased by using sps/bsps (you still have to wait the same amount of time between nukes, you just can fire them faster when they are ready, so you fire the same amount of nukes in a certain time). Only acumen/zerk/dances/songs influence skill recharge time.
6. BSPS & SPS are overpowered. Don't think so? Then why isn't BSPS allowed in the olympiad?
SS = 2x damage = 2x dps
SPS = 1.5x damage 2x speed = 3x dps
BSPS = 2x damage 2x speed = 4x dps
As far as I know, this is wrong. sps and bsps indeed increase cast speed, but they do not influence skill recharge time. Since the recharge starts right when you start casting the spell, the overall dps is not increased by using sps/bsps (you still have to wait the same amount of time between nukes, you just can fire them faster when they are ready, so you fire the same amount of nukes in a certain time). Only acumen/zerk/dances/songs influence skill recharge time.
That's bad for Overlords/Warcryers, but every other Mage still
can use the double speed by using different nukes...
So just go Hurricane - Death Spike - Hurricane - Death Spike
and you can be pretty sure u kick your enemies butt with 2x
the speed of our normal nukes...
Maybe they should copy another thing from WoW - starting the recharge timer for all skills from one category, i.e. fire one nuke, ALL have to recharge :)
How about MEN having a significant impact on land rate of spells - say, moving it up above what BSpS and spell levels do now? The defensive 'evasion' stat could be WIT, as a pat of the back to healing melees (we all know how great Elemental Heal and Holy Blessing are).
ETA: Re: recharge times
There are two buff that reduces recharge timers. For battle heal, having only one of them reduces it so far that the black veil never strats playing (i.e. recharge time zero).
6. BSPS & SPS are overpowered. Don't think so? Then why isn't BSPS allowed in the olympiad?
SS = 2x damage = 2x dps
SPS = 1.5x damage 2x speed = 3x dps
BSPS = 2x damage 2x speed = 4x dps
As far as I know, this is wrong. sps and bsps indeed increase cast speed, but they do not influence skill recharge time. Since the recharge starts right when you start casting the spell, the overall dps is not increased by using sps/bsps (you still have to wait the same amount of time between nukes, you just can fire them faster when they are ready, so you fire the same amount of nukes in a certain time). Only acumen/zerk/dances/songs influence skill recharge time.
Right, but if you take a spell that nromally has a reuse timer that's done before you finish casting it and then add bsps, now you refresh as you cast and viola - SPAM! Or as someone else put, just bounce back and forth between 2 different spells.
Also cast speed, other than DPS is important for kiting. If you run, take 1 second to cast a spell, then run again, I can probably get off 1-2 swings before you start running again...possibly even interrupting the spell. If you have 2x speed, thereby only taking .5 seconds stopped to cast, I might not even get 1 swing before you start moving again.
right now only tanks get mdef passives besides mages...and the mage mdef passives are MUCH better.
Don't know if anyone said this...I honestly tried to read it all, but it is late. So before I forget, might mdef rely on MEN? As in the higher your MEN is, the higher the effect of the m.def passives? Nukers have much higher men then tanks, so proportionally it would seem right. E.G increase = 10% of your men, so for a Orc Mystic Mdef passive would boost mdef 4.2 (base men of 42) While on a DE assassin the mdef boost would be 2.6 (base men of 26).
good point....except fighters cant add to MEN. It really all goes back to the tattoo point.
Agreed, was just pointing out the reason mage mdef passives seem much better than melee mdef passives. I don't see how it would screw anything up opening MEN tats for melee's.
Agreed, was just pointing out the reason mage mdef passives seem much better than melee mdef passives. I don't see how it would screw anything up opening MEN tats for melee's.
/agree I would deffinately open men to fighters, and int to healers so any class can +/- all 6 stats.
Agreed, was just pointing out the reason mage mdef passives seem much better than melee mdef passives. I don't see how it would screw anything up opening MEN tats for melee's.
Well, for mage passives to seem better than melee passives, melees would first have to have passives. The point I was making is that out of 18 non-mages classes, 12 have no mdef increasing passives. Of the 6 that have them, 2 only have limited levels of them. All 13 mage classes, however, have both mdef AND pdef passives.
OH GOD, S-grade bow has Focus. First off, the S-grade bow is usable at the very high lvls so it's not something that will greatly influence gameplay untill most of the servers are in S-grade. Secondly, it requires a lvl 13 crystal for the SA. That means you have to kill Antharas, Valakas, Ember or some of the other big bad bosses. And before that you need to lvl it from 10-12 with Lilith, Antharas or the likes. Draconic Bow is not something that you can use as an excuse to as why nukers BBQPWN melees like no tomorrow. Archers get Focus at S-grade, Nukers get Acumen at C-grade, gee, which one will be more common. All the nukers that get Acumen starting C, can get one in B and then one in A or the archers getting Focus at S.
You should have said something like this to be more accurate:
"NUKERS GOT ACUMEN, +CAST SPEED ROBES, PDEF AND MDEF PASSIVES, BSPS AND 6/6 STATS TO MODIFY!!!!!111341223
nuff said. nukers are overpowered... not melees... melees are just trying to not get killed every 10 seconds in a nuker world."
OH GOD, S-grade bow has Focus. First off, the S-grade bow is usable at the very high lvls so it's not something that will greatly influence gameplay untill most of the servers are in S-grade. Secondly, it requires a lvl 13 crystal for the SA. That means you have to kill Antharas, Valakas, Ember or some of the other big bad bosses. And before that you need to lvl it from 10-12 with Lilith, Antharas or the likes. Draconic Bow is not something that you can use as an excuse to as why nukers BBQPWN melees like no tomorrow. Archers get Focus at S-grade, Nukers get Acumen at C-grade, gee, which one will be more common. All the nukers that get Acumen starting C, can get one in B and then one in A or the archers getting Focus at S.
You should have said something like this to be more accurate:
"NUKERS GOT ACUMEN, +CAST SPEED ROBES, PDEF AND MDEF PASSIVES, BSPS AND 6/6 STATS TO MODIFY!!!!!111341223
nuff said. nukers are overpowered... not melees... melees are just trying to not get killed every 10 seconds in a nuker world."
:D
Nukers don't get acumen at s grade... but DRACONIC BOW HAS FOCUS! And your argument is completely bogus... the only real reason that necros could possibly be considered overpowered is 76+ skills... and guess what... that's s-grade.
Do you want me to say it again? DRACONIC BOW HAS FOCUS! Just sit back and think about how screwed up that is before you say another thing about nukers. k?
Necros are considered overpowered pre-76 already so S-grade has nothing to do with it. You're fighting a lost cause, trying to defend the FOTM class that everyone knows is the "pick this class for easy pvp pwnage".
Necros are considered overpowered pre-76 already so S-grade has nothing to do with it. You're fighting a lost cause, trying to defend the FOTM class that everyone knows is the "pick this class for easy pvp pwnage".
Blessing of the Queen Doubles Crit Damage... so archers will be critting for 3k. And DRACONIC BOW HAS FOCUS!
Don't be one of the many idiots who have no idea what they are talking about... Oh and necros aren't overpowered pre 76... nice try though...
When 10 lvls lower necro can smoke me with ease, I call that overpowered, dont you agree? Or is that just something that should be normal when it's melee vs nukers.
Only 3k? I crit way more with BoP, if you're so worried about crits, you should really ask yourself: What will happen when a Destroyer gets that bow. No need to go for Frenzy, with Rage I have way more pattk than an Archer my lvl.
Quick review as to why necros are overpowered:
Benefit from castspeed and range like any other nuker -check.
Has transfer pain and a fearsome summon that depending on the summon either nukes or dishes out nice dmg, possibly stuns - check.
Has a low mp cost, fast cast, good dmg nuke -check.
Has massive debuffs and CC skills -check.
Is one of the fastest classes to lvl -check.
Why dont you get a same lvl archer vs same lvl nuker(WITHOUT shield) and see what happens?This is OUTSIDE arena where the archer can use his speed to kite and the mage cant use ANY of his non-damage spells before the archers strikes 3 times at you.Do you know why CP was implemented?To increase the duration of pvp.Which pvp?Well the mages life ofc.I totaly agree with getting 1 shooted from an archer(full buffed) in c1.They also got +++speed and AWESOME stun.
I wonder why the mobs i fish up have sleep ressist+m attack ressist.Didnt see any archery or physical ressist mob.Kinda lame eh?3k crit?How many buffs there are for increase on a crit attack?Now tell me how many P.def buffs there are.Seems to me archers are made to kill mages.(i dont have a problem with that).But what YOU ppl wanna do is gimp the mages.This will have BIG effect on PvE (every mob will kill us).Have you seen a mage with 1k cast speed casting without shots?How lond did it take?I think that cast speed is made so mages NEED to use shots to survive(it might be just me though).
Instead of you ppl crying nerf mages,nerf archers and so on you should ask for better skills/statts on your melee chars.Because the nerf stick brought NOTHING to this game so far (and keeping the nerf up will do no good at all).Archer in c2,daggers in c3.
when on PTS i was able to own 2 archers w/ prophet buffs (and the prophet himself - w/ overhit flare haha) w/ storm screamer (granted CH buffs) there is smth wrong (open pvp). Second archer even landed stun (broken on the next hit). Result of the battle full hp and no cp + 3 dead bodies to walk on. (archers were w/ draconic;since it was before chaos i suppose no focus). When dark vortex lands i see no chance for a non-nuker. (vortex/spike/drain/spike.. next).
Btw, firex/wind/ice vortex dont need flagged char to use. Results are pretty amaging.
As for necro and 'checks'. Add, please, dark vortex; it's so a powerful spell in pvp.
I did listed the stuff pre 76 that makes necro rock, didnt bother with the 76+ ones as they are to be taken as granted, dont even need to talk about em.
There are reasons, why some classes can wear heavy & light armor...
There are reasons, why some classes can wear only robes...
Archers are supposed to kill everything with low pdef (robes), daggers are supposed to kill archers (evasion classes), tanks are supposed to stand everything (except ganking), mages are supposed to kill everything with low mdef, until it is a close combat, where mages surely suck (yes, in C4 aura is nerfed).
Mages learn armor mastery, right. But this doesn't double pdef. At 66 lvl it adds 66 pdef to my robe pdef. It's just nothing. When archer two shoots me, do I whine? No, I understand, that my pdef sucks... And mage has no chance to improve his pdef... Overenchant? Try it...
However, a fighter can wear any jewelry he may afford... Fighter has a good/best pdef, fighter can wear any jewelry he wants. Fighter usually has much more HP/CP. Dagger can still F1, F2, F3-pwn mage. Most of life-saving mage's skills are not available for offence (just don't work of whites). For example, why an archer can sleep a mage (using stun) when I'm white, but mage can't sleep a white archer?
So I think, in real pvp odds are even.
So please, stop whining and finding nerfing things. There is a balance already. Just understand your cons/pros, your role/place in the battle/fight. Arena is just a wrong criteria.
BTW, Developers are not silly. If you don't know, how to pwn a necro, you are...
****, where's Taraza? According to him, SwS are the be all end all of melee domination in pvp against mages. To roughly quote him: "They're called SWS. Learn to use them".
Guess he should read Darian's post. As far as archers being slow...my friend played a hawkeye and had same atk speed as my paladin in the 40's with her buffs and haste, using emi.
And she hit like a freaking truck.
You thought u lost me :). I only post when I'm bored at work and guess what, I'm at work :(, but hell I get paid to sit here and post so I can't complain too much.
About mages hitting SwS for 1K+, shouldn't happen with correct song. Self-buffed and with the correct song no mage has hit me for over 1K outside of a magic crit. Throw in Resist buffs and Elemental Protection and the damage is severely lowered.
People misunderstand me though about melee. Nukers and archers are better killers, no doubt. They hit harder and have range. However what I argue about melee is that they are not useless and they can take MANY hits when set up and buffed correctly. They can kill too. They are a rush in and kill or rush in and die playstyle in PvP. Nukers are overpowered simply because casting speed and the fact that nobody uses Magic Resistance buffs/songs/dances, and unless you are in a group Sleep can be a problem but if you are in a group and sleep for more than 5 seconds then your groups sucks balls. Archers are MUCH more powerful than nukers in my opinion but many classes actually stand a chance against them so they aren't in need of nerfing at all. But despite these small overpowering things when you put into account Overlords and Necros assisting (Mass Mage Bane, Silence, AoE root, etc) it all becomes fairly balanced. The main problem is many necros choose NOT to use assisting skills they got and just play as nuker. Many Overlords are reduced to only alliance buffer/healer over time. People don't want to play as a team so the team-oriented classes suffer in PvP. Just by adding SwS/BD/Prophet in a group you now take less than half the damage from nukes then without them. Now 2 of those 3 classes are rare or rarely played by a PERSON, buff bots destroyed the Prophet's image even though when manned they are EXTREMELY helpful in PvP.
So what I am saying is nukers are overpowered but no where even near what people say they are. There are FEW things that make them overpowered. People saying melee have no purpose simply because a nuker/archer kills faster is ******ed, especially considering many melee can beat archers when buffed properly. Problem is many people never get buffed properly, people think a WC or SE is the same as a Prophet, however in PvP Prophet is THE best buffer especially when the enemy is nukers. Nukers are a class thats attack can be more than halved, archers are a class that can have their damage halved or siply reduced to ONE. With EE shield buffs archers do so little damage, with Prophet's Resist buffs mage damage and status effects are reduced yet these 2 classes are some of the rarest classes that are MANNED, as in NOT two-boxed or buff bot.
>>PDef
Look at DC set. We speak again. Close to 800 pdef in robes (w/o earth song just shield) is a lot.
>>hen I'm white, but mage can't sleep a white archer?
Ahh you are necro. Dark vortex doesn't sleep. But see what fire/wind/ice do. Tanks also cant stun you while you are while.
Jewelery are not real defense to melee. Low MEN stat w/o masteries. BO+5 58 lvl TH and you can laugh at the mdef.
F1+F2+F3 ownage of daggers requires to stand from behind and all special to land (u need another shortcut to activate vicious stance) (15% if the target gives the back), the target is not HE as well (not commen on heavy wearing class).
>>Fighter usually has much more HP/CP.
Nay: compare CP/HP of AW and necro (+4 con, please), I say nothing about TP. Discussion about tats is so old. Nukers can have the same setup pve and pvp. Fighters cant.
Mages learn armor mastery, right. But this doesn't double pdef. At 66 lvl it adds 66 pdef to my robe pdef. It's just nothing. When archer two shoots me, do I whine? No, I understand, that my pdef sucks... And mage has no chance to improve his pdef... Overenchant? Try it...
However, a fighter can wear any jewelry he may afford... Fighter has a good/best pdef, fighter can wear any jewelry he wants. Fighter usually has much more HP/CP. Dagger can still F1, F2, F3-pwn mage. Most of life-saving mage's skills are not available for offence (just don't work of whites). For example, why an archer can sleep a mage (using stun) when I'm white, but mage can't sleep a white archer?
So I think, in real pvp odds are even.
actually, all mystic classes can modify con and no fighter classes can modify men, and all classes have access to all jewelries if they have the adena. plus, mages get robe mastery which adds a little bit of pdef. only fighter class that has access to mdef passive is the knight class (buff not included). not to mention that most pvp mages go for 1h mage weapon for a chance to increase pdef with a shield, whereas some melee classes have to abandon shields to use their main weapon (2h destoryers, tyrants, dual wield glads, etc). in short, mystics have more ways to get pdef than fighters to get mdef.
Mages learn armor mastery, right. But this doesn't double pdef. At 66 lvl it adds 66 pdef to my robe pdef. It's just nothing. When archer two shoots me, do I whine? No, I understand, that my pdef sucks... And mage has no chance to improve his pdef... Overenchant? Try it...
However, a fighter can wear any jewelry he may afford... Fighter has a good/best pdef, fighter can wear any jewelry he wants. Fighter usually has much more HP/CP. Dagger can still F1, F2, F3-pwn mage. Most of life-saving mage's skills are not available for offence (just don't work of whites). For example, why an archer can sleep a mage (using stun) when I'm white, but mage can't sleep a white archer?
So I think, in real pvp odds are even.
actually, all mystic classes can modify con and no fighter classes can modify men, and all classes have access to all jewelries if they have the adena. plus, mages get robe mastery which adds a little bit of pdef. only fighter class that has access to mdef passive is the knight class (buff not included). not to mention that most pvp mages go for 1h mage weapon for a chance to increase pdef with a shield, whereas some melee classes have to abandon shields to use their main weapon (2h destoryers, tyrants, dual wield glads, etc). in short, mystics have more ways to get pdef than fighters to get mdef.
It is actually untrue to say Duals are a Glad's main weapon and that 2 handed Sword is a Destroyers main weapon. Both of those classes have masteries in one handed weapons as well. Some Destroyers and Gladiators have proven the worth of using a shield in PvP. Personally I think Gladiators (in PvP) should ALWAYS use blunt and shield and when they stun an opponent to whip out the duals, charge if they have to, and TSS. Most Gladiators that run up to me with duals and start swinging just die a disappointing death.
Plz dont consider that necro=nuker.Nukers are SH,SpS,Sorc-THATS IT!Aura flare got nerfed (about time duh!),cancel also got nerfed (SH cant use it anyway).
Necro is a mixture between nuker and summoner-the problem is it takes the best from both classes (which IS wrong).Here i talk about nukers (pre 76 ofc since many of the players wont see that lvl).
Let me ask you this---up till now was there a fighter class that was totaly owned by 1 spell?I have 1 spell for nukers and that is SILENCE!Do you see me whine and cry about it?If this thing lands its GAME OVER-the bad thing is if he let you alive (after you got res all debuffs are gone).How come FROM ALL classes nukers dont have any other means of defence?They have ONLY spells (magic skills),everything drains mana and with no mana....GG.
SO i think we are as balanced as we can get considering the char development.We are glass canons and thats all there is to it.
Also we are the classes with least life and slowest running speed (this is VERY important not only for PvP).But oh well-ppl only see the good sides of the nukers and dont see the downsides.(Again necro isnt a nuker!Its a middle class that is broken!
It is actually untrue to say Duals are a Glad's main weapon and that 2 handed Sword is a Destroyers main weapon. Both of those classes have masteries in one handed weapons as well. Some Destroyers and Gladiators have proven the worth of using a shield in PvP. Personally I think Gladiators (in PvP) should ALWAYS use blunt and shield and when they stun an opponent to whip out the duals, charge if they have to, and TSS. Most Gladiators that run up to me with duals and start swinging just die a disappointing death.
which is precisely why i put prefix on destoryers and glads (2h, dual wield), but not tyrants, because that's one of many setups those 2 classes can get. a 1h blunt with health sa on destoryers and glads surely goes down slower than 2h/duals, but that's just another style of play. overall, i think my point of mystics can get pdef easier than mdef still stands.
You clearly have never played a gladiator. To switch to a blunt and shield to stun then switch back to duals is very difficult thing to do as macros will always screw up and you cant manually click the items fast enough. Switching equipment during pvp gives you too much difficulty and your almost guarnteed to waste time trying it. The only scenario a blunt + shield is needed for a glad is VS an archer. Glads are weak to mage only, and thats the way it should be, please leave this awsome class alone.
You clearly have never played a gladiator. To switch to a blunt and shield to stun then switch back to duals is very difficult thing to do as macros will always screw up and you cant manually click the items fast enough. Switching equipment during pvp gives you too much difficulty and your almost guarnteed to waste time trying it. The only scenario a blunt + shield is needed for a glad is VS an archer. Glads are weak to mage only, and thats the way it should be, please leave this awsome class alone.
I use Damascas and shield, I got a BoP, and I got a Sword of Whispering Death with Magic Silence that I use for casting Entangle, and if I'm lucky Silence :). I DO NOT use macros and I manage to slip from one another flawlessly most of the time unless I lag and a key stroke doesn't go through due to lag. Right now I usually bust out the SoWD and entangle then bust out the bow and shoot as I run to a target and then pull out Damascas and shield for close range, never use macros. I've TRIED but macros are so worthless as they stop if you even bump the [censored] mouse it seems, they just aren't dependable for actions while moving or in the heat of battle. Just set up one hotbar with what you need in the order you need it. For example with a Glad maybe have your F4 hotbar have blunt on F1, stun on F2, charge thingy on F3, and duals on F4, with whatever special attack you want after that. Its truly not that difficult
Ok, i read up all **** 7 pages and all i can tell most of u is: Learn the game.
Before u nerf acumen SA/Robe or bsps, think about that not all mages r nukers and not all support classes r boxed. Think about that l2 is a MMorpg, not orpg, and made use of it. Ur mdef sucks? Get buffs! Get jewels! Remove +con for mages? Die right after ur healer dies. U cant use all of ur skills with ur weapon? play a dwarf: 1-skill, 1-weapon. Cry about how weak ur class is? reroll! And before u start telling about classes and skills, read up the skills on Lineage2.com, ask a friend and go into the game and try it out.
Think about the game itself.
Take a nuker on a siege, 10mins and his mp is gone and then what? Got canceled/slepped/rooted/whatever? Why did u flag first? Tanks flag first, or archer/nuker goes red = no cancel.
So, before u start crying again, think about ur own mistakes. Learn the other classes besides ur own, set up the group corrcet and buy the right stuff. Well, that goes for pvp partys ack, but dont forget pve partys can be also good pvp partys. If u play with ur friends, there is ever a way (in my clan many ppl rerolled/made alts to compare class lags, just discuss it!)
Ok, i read up all **** 7 pages and all i can tell most of u is: Learn the game.
Before u nerf acumen SA/Robe or bsps, think about that not all mages r nukers and not all support classes r boxed. Think about that l2 is a MMorpg, not orpg, and made use of it. Ur mdef sucks? Get buffs! Get jewels! Remove +con for mages? Die right after ur healer dies. U cant use all of ur skills with ur weapon? play a dwarf: 1-skill, 1-weapon. Cry about how weak ur class is? reroll! And before u start telling about classes and skills, read up the skills on Lineage2.com, ask a friend and go into the game and try it out.
Think about the game itself.
Take a nuker on a siege, 10mins and his mp is gone and then what? Got canceled/slepped/rooted/whatever? Why did u flag first? Tanks flag first, or archer/nuker goes red = no cancel.
So, before u start crying again, think about ur own mistakes. Learn the other classes besides ur own, set up the group corrcet and buy the right stuff. Well, that goes for pvp partys ack, but dont forget pve partys can be also good pvp partys. If u play with ur friends, there is ever a way (in my clan many ppl rerolled/made alts to compare class lags, just discuss it!)
If it is a self buffed duell with pots, every mage sucks.
If it is a buffed duell, every mage kicks ***.
If it is a buffed assist train, every ranged rocks.
we'll see who really "roxxors" when the olympiad starts...
On the Open Field it's Mage domination.
Ok, i read up all **** 7 pages and all i can tell most of u is: Learn the game.
Before u nerf acumen SA/Robe or bsps, think about that not all mages r nukers and not all support classes r boxed. Think about that l2 is a MMorpg, not orpg, and made use of it. Ur mdef sucks? Get buffs! Get jewels! Remove +con for mages? Die right after ur healer dies. U cant use all of ur skills with ur weapon? play a dwarf: 1-skill, 1-weapon. Cry about how weak ur class is? reroll! And before u start telling about classes and skills, read up the skills on Lineage2.com, ask a friend and go into the game and try it out.
Think about the game itself.
Take a nuker on a siege, 10mins and his mp is gone and then what? Got canceled/slepped/rooted/whatever? Why did u flag first? Tanks flag first, or archer/nuker goes red = no cancel.
So, before u start crying again, think about ur own mistakes. Learn the other classes besides ur own, set up the group corrcet and buy the right stuff. Well, that goes for pvp partys ack, but dont forget pve partys can be also good pvp partys. If u play with ur friends, there is ever a way (in my clan many ppl rerolled/made alts to compare class lags, just discuss it!)
If it is a self buffed duell with pots, every mage sucks.
If it is a buffed duell, every mage kicks ***.
If it is a buffed assist train, every ranged rocks.
we'll see who really "roxxors" when the olympiad starts...
On the Open Field it's Mage domination.
on the open field mages shouldn't ever win... if you are outnumbered or out geared or out lvled walk away... mages are the slowest class in game... archers however can chase anybody down on the open field, so there is no way to get away...
Ok, i read up all **** 7 pages and all i can tell most of u is: Learn the game.
Before u nerf acumen SA/Robe or bsps, think about that not all mages r nukers and not all support classes r boxed. Think about that l2 is a MMorpg, not orpg, and made use of it. Ur mdef sucks? Get buffs! Get jewels! Remove +con for mages? Die right after ur healer dies. U cant use all of ur skills with ur weapon? play a dwarf: 1-skill, 1-weapon. Cry about how weak ur class is? reroll! And before u start telling about classes and skills, read up the skills on Lineage2.com, ask a friend and go into the game and try it out.
Think about the game itself.
Take a nuker on a siege, 10mins and his mp is gone and then what? Got canceled/slepped/rooted/whatever? Why did u flag first? Tanks flag first, or archer/nuker goes red = no cancel.
So, before u start crying again, think about ur own mistakes. Learn the other classes besides ur own, set up the group corrcet and buy the right stuff. Well, that goes for pvp partys ack, but dont forget pve partys can be also good pvp partys. If u play with ur friends, there is ever a way (in my clan many ppl rerolled/made alts to compare class lags, just discuss it!)
If it is a self buffed duell with pots, every mage sucks.
If it is a buffed duell, every mage kicks ***.
If it is a buffed assist train, every ranged rocks.
we'll see who really "roxxors" when the olympiad starts...
On the Open Field it's Mage domination.
The way olympiad went is summoners came in top, then other classes with summon pets, then archers, then melee and pure nuker were pretty even in last place. I would lsoe to the mages if ripo stance failed and slow landed, and i would win if i reflected something usefull or landed a stun.
OH GOD, S-grade bow has Focus. First off, the S-grade bow is usable at the very high lvls so it's not something that will greatly influence gameplay untill most of the servers are in S-grade. Secondly, it requires a lvl 13 crystal for the SA. That means you have to kill Antharas, Valakas, Ember or some of the other big bad bosses. And before that you need to lvl it from 10-12 with Lilith, Antharas or the likes. Draconic Bow is not something that you can use as an excuse to as why nukers BBQPWN melees like no tomorrow. Archers get Focus at S-grade, Nukers get Acumen at C-grade, gee, which one will be more common. All the nukers that get Acumen starting C, can get one in B and then one in A or the archers getting Focus at S.
You should have said something like this to be more accurate:
"NUKERS GOT ACUMEN, +CAST SPEED ROBES, PDEF AND MDEF PASSIVES, BSPS AND 6/6 STATS TO MODIFY!!!!!111341223
nuff said. nukers are overpowered... not melees... melees are just trying to not get killed every 10 seconds in a nuker world."
:D
Nukers don't get acumen at s grade... but DRACONIC BOW HAS FOCUS! And your argument is completely bogus... the only real reason that necros could possibly be considered overpowered is 76+ skills... and guess what... that's s-grade.
Do you want me to say it again? DRACONIC BOW HAS FOCUS! Just sit back and think about how screwed up that is before you say another thing about nukers. k?
I suppose you have played an archer? Seriously though, a bow that .005% of the population will have and .0001% will have the SA on it. Versus 30% (estimate) of the population that has mages. 25% of which have every possible item to make them superman. So there are like 2 archers on each server that can (maybe if they are lucky) kick the crap out of all of the mages.
Heck, all you have to do is carry a shield. Critical hit... you hit for 1 dmg. GG.
Why dont you get a same lvl archer vs same lvl nuker(WITHOUT shield) and see what happens?This is OUTSIDE arena where the archer can use his speed to kite and the mage cant use ANY of his non-damage spells before the archers strikes 3 times at you.Do you know why CP was implemented?To increase the duration of pvp.Which pvp?Well the mages life ofc.I totaly agree with getting 1 shooted from an archer(full buffed) in c1.They also got +++speed and AWESOME stun.
I wonder why the mobs i fish up have sleep ressist+m attack ressist.Didnt see any archery or physical ressist mob.Kinda lame eh?3k crit?How many buffs there are for increase on a crit attack?Now tell me how many P.def buffs there are.Seems to me archers are made to kill mages.(i dont have a problem with that).But what YOU ppl wanna do is gimp the mages.This will have BIG effect on PvE (every mob will kill us).Have you seen a mage with 1k cast speed casting without shots?How lond did it take?I think that cast speed is made so mages NEED to use shots to survive(it might be just me though).
Instead of you ppl crying nerf mages,nerf archers and so on you should ask for better skills/statts on your melee chars.Because the nerf stick brought NOTHING to this game so far (and keeping the nerf up will do no good at all).Archer in c2,daggers in c3.
no archery resist? No Archery resist? Are you frickin mad? There has been archery resist since BETA. When did magic resist come in? HMMMM C2. BTW it has been like this for nerfs/adjustments: prelude: archer, C1: archer, C2: everyone (all resist mobs... not just dagger/archer) sword singer/physical dds (song of hunter/water nerfed), C3: dagger, C4: not sure(TBD).
BTW, I am not rooting for a nerf. I just want some balancing.
I was speaking about fishing.The mobs you fish up have sleep/m attack/hold ressist.If you are not fast you gonna die every time.Seems like mages arent made to fish but to craft :confused: