Melees Need to be reevaluated by the ncsoft team. I understand their will never be a 100 percent balance but what I see now is rediculous. Its not just power that mages and arhcers have its what I like to call "overkill'.
The problem with mages is that not many people complained about mages because In c1 their damage was the same as now. What made mages overpowered as we call it is ncsoft allowing not just one but a lot of things help cast speed. Think about this the best a melee can have to increase atk speed is their buffs that they receive. A mage to increase their cast speed has buffs, BSPS, armor bonus , tatoos, and acumen. Thats 5 things a mage has to increase their cast speed while a melee has 1 thing to increase atk speed. Does this not seem overpowered to the people that play?
On to the next topic there needs to be a good balance btw range and melee. I dont want to hear nonsense about this is how ncsoft sees it. Ranged classes deal a lot of damage at a 900 range which is their advantage. Melee deal a lot of damage at close range. You know the game is becoming sad when you have mages and archers standing in one stationary position like a tank while the melee comes up to try and attack them. ive always thought of all mages and archers as kiters having to cast a nuke so to say then run back. Not stand in one position and throw fast nukes and kill enemy before they even get a chance to hit you once.
The next thing I want to discuss on the horrible balance is the spells that slow down melee even more. I mean this is rediculous because the ranged classes advantage is htting you for good damage at a distance by implementing spells that further slow melee makes it impossible to reach the target which thus makes the ranged char more overpowered.
people right now say well whats the point of this post. Well because pvp in lineage 2 is now sad its just a matter of which clan/alliance has more nukers. You know that the balance is way out of line when the outcome of a match just depends on who has more nukers on one side.
In my opinion bring back the mages to the way they were in c1. They did the same damage they do now but remove the cast speed bonus of acumen and the armor bonus. BSps already increase cast speed so leave that as is and then tatoo is fine because everyone gets to adust their tatoos. Im seriously encouraging NCsoft developers to take a look at the current stance of the game and where it wants to go in the future. Because all it is now is people rerolling archers/nukers.
while correct for the most part there are some serious flaws with some points. Mainly about ranged being able to slow melee, the only nukers/archers that have slow are SH and SR and if you include necros as a nuker they got mass slow which rarely lands. PW, SwS, Tyrants, DAs, TKs, and BDs (sorta because it rarely lands) all have slow spell. Casting speed is the main issue I have with nukers too but melee also have their excessives as well. See Destroyer's Patk with Frenzy, see Tyrant's Patk, Crit rate, and atk speed with Bison totem, see Tyrant's speed with Rabbit Totem. Hell look at the HP of a Tyrant with Hp setup (19K HP 4K CP).
The main thing people need to realize is that the game isn't melee vs. ranged. Silence, Curse of Doom, Mass Mage Bane, Root, etc. severely cripple ranged classes. Unfortunately those spells are given to nukers and support classes who choose not to use their skills to their full potential. Everybody does everything they can to combat melee and physical damage but people don't do shiit to combat ranged and magic damage. Have you played against nukers when you have Hunter, Wind, Warding, <any Guard Song depending on enemy mages>, Fire, and Fury along with buffs like BtB, Resist <element>, and HP weapon SA? how often do you have a SwS doing 'Guard' songs along with Prophet's element resist buffs in your PvP groups?
Also archers are SOOO much better than nukers, nukers aren't shiit when you got people Silencing them (OLs and Necros) and you got proper buffs.
I think melee need something too but its not that bad, its only gotten worse because people stopped playing their melee in PvP and for melee to be effective in PvP they need to rush in mass, not hit and run like archers and nukers, which I see melee do MUCH too often.
Accept the fact that you are at a disadvantage out in the open but inside a castle or inside a catacomb or some other closed in space melee can mess ranged up. Archers/nukers are pure offense while melee are offense and defense. Its when people abandon these traits by going -CON and rather having Accuracy or Dance of Warrior over other buffs like 'Guard' Songs/Dances and Resist Wind, etc that melee suck. People also need to rethink weapon SAs for melee. may things like Focus or Crit Damage sometimes never even take effect in PvP as you won't crit or in worst cases not even get a swing off so it would be more effective for many melee to go HP SA weapon, especially the actual DD melees like Destroyers, Tyrants and Gladiators. And classes like Dwarves and Warlords will really shine in their 3rd class change while in tight spots. Aside from Warlords already shining in tight areas with their AoE stun that lands way too much. Dwarves, Warlords and Destroyers all get an AoE skill that makes all enemies in range lose targets. Inside a castle this can be devastating and more of a deciding factor than more nukers. Hell our clan has quite a few high lvl dwarves, two of which are already 75 and well into their subclass and we have a few high lvl Destroyers as well.
If there is one thing NC Soft should do to make playing melee in castle seiges more fun would be to make castles larger and make more rooms for enemies to go through. There is just too much open space in this game.
So your idea of a fix is to ignore the broke class(meelee) and damage the working class? Shouldn't it be much better the other way around?
Ie, leave the Ranged classes, but bump up the melee classes.
From a far, a Mage/Archer is SUPPOSED to be far more dangerious to a Knight. But if or when the Knight catches up to the Ranger/Mage he should be very powerful.
A quick history lesson from RL.
Back in the day, a long long time ago, there was the same situation I described(more or less).
Mages/Sorcerors - science fiction
Knights - Real meelee warriors. Nobles, Lords Tittle holders, generally wealthy and poweful in their status quo. Very hard to train, very long time to train to become good at what they did. Very deadly at close range.
Archers - Mostly Peasants. Cheaply trained, very expendable, fast training, very Deadly from a distance.
Real Threat to the foot solders.
I read a number of books, watched shows, etc and they all say that Knights with their Expencive Steeds, Armor and Sword, were very hateful of the Archers(bowmen/crossbowmen).
1st of all, an archer could take out this knight from a distance.
2nd, a peasant killing a Lord in his all expencive armor.
3rd, when the knights managed to breach defences they took no mercy on the Rangers.
Some knights/cultures adopted by carrying a Bow in addition to their main weapon, some didn't.
So, the moral of my post, since I play an Archer, I SHOULD be YOUR fear from afar.
But when you close on me, I should be running for my life cause you SHOULD be 1-2 hit me(if this was RL) since I only wear LIGHT armor.
See that, now that didn't involve the nerfbatting of Nukers/Rangers, but that signifyed the role of a FOOT Solder/Meelee warrior cause well they are at their best at close range.
Yeah there is a balance problem, but I agree with Taraza. I've witnessed a mainly melee defensive force protecting against an all-archer attacking clan with great success. That was mostly about _keeping formation, don't get kited_, have some support classes dishing out heals and rezzes from inside the formation. Those archers couldn't get through... sure, some victims of war were a fact but in the greater scale of things, the mostly melee force were not penetrable at that point. It can be done.
Dunno about you, but when I cant even hit an archer in melee, there must be something wrong. Especially when he is pumping arrow after arrow into me. They should implement one simple fix, archer cannot use bow if he is engaged in melee, simple as that. No more tanking archers, no more "miss miss miss" while the archer just stands still and makes a needlecushion out of you.
_NO_ shooting when engaged in melee, realistic? Yes. Balancing? Somewhat. Big nerf? No.
Another thing is the HP+CP of archers and nukers since they can take quite many hits from melees, maybe up melee dmg against robes/light armors(this could screw up tyrants and daggers tho so maybe make it a class specific weakness.)
Btw, how on earth can someone Evade attacks when he is stunned? NCSoft, think about it, player A is stunned/paralyzed/anchored/slept but he still evades hits. What on earth is the logic behind this? If you're standing completely still because you cant even blink, even a lvl 1 elpy slayer should be able to hit you without a miss. Stun/Paralyze/Anchor/Sleep = automatic success in hit, logical, no?
In small scale pvp, nukers are a menace, but last Goddard Siege just showed how overkill the archers are to melees that dont use shields. Btw, on the siegefield, there was perhaps 4 melee parties out from 50 clans(and the alliances they form). I'd say that 90% of the participants were ranged or support, maybe even more. Melee is fading from this game... but guess it's NCSofts general idea? Who needs melee anyway? Antharas is done with nuker/archer groups, no melee needed there. Valakas the same? Raids, well... log in an alt tank for a few mins, yayyy.
They should implement one simple fix, archer cannot use bow if he is engaged in melee
It's already in the system. Try rolling an archer and let a mob/person pound on you when you're trying to shoot em. Guess what happens: "miss miss miss"
maybe up melee dmg against robes/light armors
I think you're onto something here. Really. :p
but last Goddard Siege just showed how overkill the archers are to melees that dont use shields. Btw, on the siegefield, there was perhaps 4 melee parties out from 50 clans(and the alliances they form). I'd say that 90% of the participants were ranged or support, maybe even more.
Quick question, did you stop for a second and read what you wrote there?
90% of the participants were Ranged/Support.......well don't you agree that either in Real Life or In the game, this WILL cause mass slaughter?
Melee is fading from this game... ....
........... Who needs melee anyway?......
Problem is with the people who play Melee. I can't remember the last time I partied with a TANK who actually was worth his/her salt. Hell no, They were Officialy tanks, but they were really trying to be the Damage Dealers. So when you have people who are role confused, and as a result can't do neither of the two things right then you have a whole bunch of people whyning that: this is broke or that is broke, nerf this, nerf that, i'm a gimp, etc
Learn your class. Play your class as it was meant to be.
I love the occasional posts on this boards where someone is whyning "Oh I'm a healer and I'm not PvP worthy". Well, this isn't the Real life Army where Combat Doctors are Soldiers 1st, Doctors second.
Guess what, wasnt miss miss miss on the archers part. Was critical hit, critical hit, critical hit and then his party assisted. I took 3 crits in a row from the archer while _I_ missed all my melee attacks.
Real life, crossbows and longbowmen were the only feared types of archers for heavy infantry and cavalry. Before crossbows, heavy infantry was the dominant factor on the field. Shield formations anyone? Dont bring real life into game mechanics. IN game, if 90% are ranged/support it clearly shows that the game is unbalanced since people pick up only those classes, not melee. IF melee had better chances, they'd be played more.
Dont go judging all tanks by your own experiences. Lots of good tanks out there. Lots of tanks that know their role better than you do. And about my role? Have you ever played a destroyer? If not, shut up since you dont know anything of my role on the field. I play my class, as a high dmg dealer that has huge amounts of HP. I play my class, that is meant to draw fire, soak up damage and allow the bigger, frail damage dealers to drop the enemies. I play my class, that rips apart healers and nukers when I get to close range. I play my class, that is the most versatile one in the game. I have more ways to go than you with your SR that is point and click, then run a few steps and shoot another arrow. Perhaps if you had ever tried to play a class that needs 4 different weapons to give 100% of what it can do, you would know what skill is. Perhaps, if there was more destroyers out there you would know that it takes skill to play one, same as a tyrant or any other melee since melees are by game mechanics placed as the underdogs.
Taranza is right, melees can compete, but they need alot more support. And when support is limited, it goes for the archer/nuker parties since hey, who wants to stick with melees that cant just hang back and hit F1, F2 to launch main nukes or hit F1 to attack with their normal, range 900 attack and hope for crit.
For the record, I have played SR, Sorceror, Destroyer, Tyrant and WS and SR/Sorceror are both classes that did not need much thinking for good pvp/pve performance. Melees did, melees actually need some effort to be good, they're challenging but soon the challenge will be impossible to overcome if the playerbase follows the course it is taking now -rerolling to necro/archer since other classes aint worth the time you need to get them to high lvls.
Btw, how on earth can someone Evade attacks when he is stunned? NCSoft, think about it, player A is stunned/paralyzed/anchored/slept but he still evades hits. What on earth is the logic behind this? If you're standing completely still because you cant even blink, even a lvl 1 elpy slayer should be able to hit you without a miss. Stun/Paralyze/Anchor/Sleep = automatic success in hit, logical, no?
Actually the system log's wording is misleading. A player evading and his enemy missing are the same thing. So when you are stunned and its says you evaded really its just that the other guy missed
And then you can think, How on earth you miss someone that is not moving in any way, that infact, cannot move in any way. You miss the tree when you swing your axe to take it down? Didnt think so... autohit for stunned/paralyzed/anchored/slept targets, it is silly that you can even miss them, or miss them many times in a row.
Taraza: Didn't read youe entire first post but your wrong in the first part, more classes then the ones you listed can slow peopels, Like SPS have an slow skill even an pre 20 one and one after 40 as well.
Anyhow after that I rater skip entering this subject, as it's pointless.
Btw, how on earth can someone Evade attacks when he is stunned? NCSoft, think about it, player A is stunned/paralyzed/anchored/slept but he still evades hits. What on earth is the logic behind this? If you're standing completely still because you cant even blink, even a lvl 1 elpy slayer should be able to hit you without a miss. Stun/Paralyze/Anchor/Sleep = automatic success in hit, logical, no?
while your at it, why do specials always hit and never miss? why do magic fireball type spells always hit? If your going to make it so imobilization decreases evasion then you might want to check specials and magic attacks.
People have suggested that magic attacks should be evadeable and I think so too. Dagger specials dont always hit either ;) And the new lethal blow/shot doesnt work always either so why not change all the magic attacks and specials? Add a small chance for miss, based on evasion or some other values. Someone suggested that magic attacks would be like "blunt" attacks, ie highly accurate but they too sometimes miss. Would it be so bad to miss 1 out of 30 nukes? Or 1 out of 20 specials? Daggers miss alot more already so why not apply it in a smaller scale to other classes too?
The problem is that as you say learn to play the class. Well Ill give some examples. A tank is what it is a tank therefore he can take someone coming up to him and take a beating. But the problem is now you have mages standing in one spot throwing nukes tanking. A nuker is not a tank. But countless of melee can go up to a mage and the mage will throw nukes still without moving an inch. Ranged classes advantage is just that ranged so throw a nuke and run back then cast another nuke, plus they have sleep to utilize now and other skills. The thing is a mage is not a tank and now this is the problem a nuker or archer stand in one spot and arent even afraid to move because they really dont have to defeat someone. When a melee comes close in to a nuker they should be able to deal a huge amount of damage because a melee strong point is close range. But this games balance is broken because the nuker can stand in one spot and tank and take people out without putting much effort to kite.
About the person who said about a destroyers p.atk , frenzy etc. all those are nice and dandy when the main point here is your in CLOSE RANGE. But then again all melee classes are slow as it is. A nuker's cast speed with 5 things increasing cast speed the damage output they put their main thing that helps them is their range advantage but having that range advantage plus every other thing I mentioned above makes them overpowered.
Now on to archers my main thing about archers is that they have many skills on their pallete but they hardly ever use those skills. Because they dont need to. Their reg hits crit you for serious amount of damage. The problem is the crit is not just 500 damage on a crit or 800 its like 2200 damage on a crit. so its like quadrupled. But why so when range has a 900 range advantage. But once a melee comes close the most they can do is 1200 with a special. And archer crits are not rare at all matter of fact they crit enough with out any buffs.
About the battlefield. or in close quarters. The main part of the game is castle sieges and open field pvp. Therefore the balance should come there because thats the main part of the game.
Every week there are 10 topics on this issue and NC hasn't done a **** thing about in the past 2 Chronicles.
They balance this game for PVE but the PVP part is completely unbalanced in favor of ranged DD classes. Even in close fights, or dungeon fights, ranged classes are better.
There's no way anyone would choose a melee DD class over a ranged DD class when forming up for a high level PVP fight. The only reason the few melee DD classes are put into groups is because they haven't rerolled their class or subclassed a ranged DD class. All the melee classes are put into the left over group.
NC, everyone is rerolling ranged DD class (archers or nukers) or subclassing an archer or nuker. You know why? They are 50 times better at PVP than melee DD classes.
You may have done a good job balancing the self buffed Olypmpiad fights, but real PVP of ANY type is completely dominated by ranged DD classes, in every situation (sieges, ganking, close fights, open field fights, etc).
For example the farther a mage is away from the target.. the less damage they will do.. kind of like gravity taking over and the spell weakening kind of dealie depending on the distance.. same idea for the archer
this would help melees very much so..
what does people think? its an easy fix.. not overpowered for either side.. i'd say this woul dbe a happy medium for all...
For example the farther a mage is away from the target.. the less damage they will do.. kind of like gravity taking over and the spell weakening kind of dealie depending on the distance.. same idea for the archer
this would help melees very much so..
what does people think? its an easy fix.. not overpowered for either side.. i'd say this woul dbe a happy medium for all...
I like the idea of if the target is too close (like 200 range or something) an archer or nuker cannot hit them. Kinda like old Shining Force games where archers cannot hit the ppl directly next to them. Quite honestly it is easy to get near ranged in seiges and such when melee do rushes. Most melee get crushed by slow spells because they are rushing alone or there are too few vs. too many.
This is just my own little thoughts on the matter.
I play atm a tyrant lvl 65, and i have repetedly been completly humiliated on the fields of battle by archers and nukers of all kinds. It haven't mattered if it was in arena, open field or in a castle.
I know now that a few ppl will say that I don't know how to play my class,that i didn't make sure that I had the right buffs or that I didn't use the ++++HP setup.
From my point of view it seems very much that something is really wrong with the PvP balance in this game.
For instance, melee's have no fighting chance whatsoever against a nuker or an archer.
Nuker's: doesn't matter if I have mental shield and top B-jewelry, nuker's sleep me anyway, just takes them a 2 tries instead. Or they just skip the sleep, land their resistanse debuff and nuke the crap out of me before i even get 2 steps.
Even with m.def buffs (not including resist [enter element here] or SwS songs) they still nuke me for 1500+ dmg every 2 seconds or so.
I was sieging this last weekend I managed to get of around 20 hits during the whole siege, 5 of them where skills, the rest of the time I stood either slept or where running back to the fight. Not to mention that as soon as we made contact with the enemy (I was part of a melee party) the whole grp got AoE slept and then killed in less than 5 secs.
Archer's: I'm one of the fastest classes ingame, but that doesn't help very much when you get stunned/slowed or 3 shotted on the way t the archer. Or if do happen to get to him, then he just walks alittle bit and I can't hit him because of the nice little kite bug (target is too far). Not to mention that he has around the same p.def as me = low dmg while he keeps hitting me for 700 - 3k dmg each hit.
And why is it that I need to do 1 perticular setup (the HP one) to be able to stand for atleast 5 secs longer?? As that even would matter since if I'm fighting a nuker he just sleep, nuke, sleep.
For Taranza, you keep to bring up that you need this buff or that buff and that tatoo and that weapon, but have you ever thought of that ppl might not have that buffer with him, or that SwS?? Or that you buff of to cover the most of the dmg you take and have full buff-slots?? According to you it means that the party always should have a prophet, EE, SwS and a SE with them to always cover all the buffs needed to fight any kind of nuker. I wonder what the kill spd of that paryy would be since you only would have to cut away all the dmg buffs to be able to resist the magic attacks. (this is a response to things you have said in previos threads)
Not to mention that you bring up that that are debuffs that gimp nukers to death. Well there is, usable by other NUKERS!! Name one melee that have silence in their skill-list and I'll shut up about it.
As it is now the game is broken, give it another 2-6 month's and you won't have any melee left in the game. They are to hard to lvl since all areas are great for nukers to solo in, exept Swamp of screams, but a melee can't solo in there either since all the mobs run when they get to 50% HP. An area soly for archers perhaps??
And why such whining about nuker's being glass cannons?? A nuker can take quite a few hits, alot more than I can take from them atleast. Only if I manage to get to the nuker, land my stun and get the stun to hold for atleast 15 secs ,1 hurricane and 1 punch of doom then maybe I can kill the nuker before he sleeps me and heals himself and then nukes me into oblivion.
And then we have the funny B-sps. Not only do they give nuker's *4 the dmg, but also increase spell release time and chance of debuffs landing (including sleep). Great job NCsoft. When will we see some blessed ss??? That not only gives melee *4 the dmg, but also increase att.spd and increase the chance of landing stun and increase the chance of dagger-blows to land. My guess would be somewhere around never.
I can take the *4 dmg on b-sps but not the rest of the stuff.
And then we have the armor bonus and weaon SA's.
As stated in other post much like this one, nukers get: 15% cast spd from armor, 15% cast spd from SA acumen and then the increase from b-sps by 7% (can't remember the exact % so don't flame me about it). That's a total of 37% increase in cast.spd, not bad. And above that you get + wit on the armor and/or +int.
Then we take a look at the same type of things for melee: +4% att.spd from armor and +7% att.spd from SA haste = 11%, WOHOO!! And add that to the little we get from the +dex we have on the armor.
Anyone seeing anthing odd here???
And about tatoo's, why should I have to set up my char in a certain way only to be able to survive against a nuker or an archer?? And what should i sacrifice?? p.attk or evasion/crit rate/run spd?? Well I guess that I could gimp my dex since I hardly ever crit anyway, even with SA focus, can't evade nukes and run spd isn't doing me much good now anyway since I'm dead as soon as a nuker target's me.
Is this really how all nuker experience it?? that you have to set up your char in a pre-determined way? Or do you have more options perhaps? Like a + con tat perhaps, since you can gimp your str into oblivion without ever noticing it. or why not add that little +dex tat so you can kite better?? and then add a + wit tat for that little extra cast.spd that you need so much. Or why not add a + int tat so you can do even more dmg and perhaps even 3-shot a melee instead of 4 or 5 shot him. And don't tell me that you can't 4-shot a melee, I've been 4-shotted alot of times by all kind of nukers.
And as a side note, a Tyrant with 19k HP is only possible with full buffs = song of vitality, BtB lvl6,+5 con, ogre totem, SA health and doom heavy. True that he would stand up alot longer but he has less moving spd than a nuker in walk mode. He ends up at like 115-120 moving.spd at the most. So in short, he's dead against any archer/nuker anyway.
And last but not least (no matter what you nukers say) M.atk.
According to what I have read in other threads, m.atk doesn't matter that much, it's the power of the spell that matters.
I checked something on that, a nuker with around 100 m.atk (same lvl as me) did around 300 dmg with the strongest nuke, then she equiped the weapon and got around 700 m.atk, BAM 1.8k dmg. So m.atk doesn't matter??
I really fear what a nuker with 4k+ m.atk does in dmg, prolly around 6-7k dmg on a single nuke without a crit.
For myself as a melee, with around 100 p.atk i hit for 10-20 dmg, with 700 p.atk i do around 50 dmg/fist =100 dmg.
So if I would get 4k+ p.atk i would do what?? 1k dmg per hit?? And that vs a nuker who can throw spells faster than I can hit :(
I mean i have awsome att.spd (1051 fully buffed) while a SH in my clan said he had 1100+ fully buffed, and they are the slowest nukers. SpS have reported 1400+ cast.spd :eek:
So i say that nuker's are WAY overpowered as it is. How to change it??
just a few suggestions:
1: remove b-sps from the game
2: make m.def matter something, atm it doesn't matter if you have 400 or 800, a nuke still hurts like hell and the sleep still lands.
3: take sleep away from the nukers and make it the buffers job to sleep, give the buffers increased MP-regen to be able to sleep and buff, this also gives prophets something else to do besides buffing every 20 min. And the nukers can join party's as DD's instead of sleepers.
4: Robes are made of simple cloth, make the p.def mirror that.
5: make it possible to interupt archers when they shoot.
6: make it possible to evade all nukes exept AoE ones. one should be able to evade all skills (including melee skills).
This is just my 2 cents.
And since i can't stop it anyway, FLAME AWAY!!! (try and prove me wrong this time)
This is just my own little thoughts on the matter.
I play atm a tyrant lvl 65, and i have repetedly been completly humiliated on the fields of battle by archers and nukers of all kinds. It haven't mattered if it was in arena, open field or in a castle.
I know now that a few ppl will say that I don't know how to play my class,that i didn't make sure that I had the right buffs or that I didn't use the ++++HP setup.
From my point of view it seems very much that something is really wrong with the PvP balance in this game.
For instance, melee's have no fighting chance whatsoever against a nuker or an archer.
Nuker's: doesn't matter if I have mental shield and top B-jewelry, nuker's sleep me anyway, just takes them a 2 tries instead. Or they just skip the sleep, land their resistanse debuff and nuke the crap out of me before i even get 2 steps.
Even with m.def buffs (not including resist [enter element here] or SwS songs) they still nuke me for 1500+ dmg every 2 seconds or so.
I was sieging this last weekend I managed to get of around 20 hits during the whole siege, 5 of them where skills, the rest of the time I stood either slept or where running back to the fight. Not to mention that as soon as we made contact with the enemy (I was part of a melee party) the whole grp got AoE slept and then killed in less than 5 secs.
Archer's: I'm one of the fastest classes ingame, but that doesn't help very much when you get stunned/slowed or 3 shotted on the way t the archer. Or if do happen to get to him, then he just walks alittle bit and I can't hit him because of the nice little kite bug (target is too far). Not to mention that he has around the same p.def as me = low dmg while he keeps hitting me for 700 - 3k dmg each hit.
And why is it that I need to do 1 perticular setup (the HP one) to be able to stand for atleast 5 secs longer?? As that even would matter since if I'm fighting a nuker he just sleep, nuke, sleep.
For Taranza, you keep to bring up that you need this buff or that buff and that tatoo and that weapon, but have you ever thought of that ppl might not have that buffer with him, or that SwS?? Or that you buff of to cover the most of the dmg you take and have full buff-slots?? According to you it means that the party always should have a prophet, EE, SwS and a SE with them to always cover all the buffs needed to fight any kind of nuker. I wonder what the kill spd of that paryy would be since you only would have to cut away all the dmg buffs to be able to resist the magic attacks. (this is a response to things you have said in previos threads)
Not to mention that you bring up that that are debuffs that gimp nukers to death. Well there is, usable by other NUKERS!! Name one melee that have silence in their skill-list and I'll shut up about it.
As it is now the game is broken, give it another 2-6 month's and you won't have any melee left in the game. They are to hard to lvl since all areas are great for nukers to solo in, exept Swamp of screams, but a melee can't solo in there either since all the mobs run when they get to 50% HP. An area soly for archers perhaps??
And why such whining about nuker's being glass cannons?? A nuker can take quite a few hits, alot more than I can take from them atleast. Only if I manage to get to the nuker, land my stun and get the stun to hold for atleast 15 secs ,1 hurricane and 1 punch of doom then maybe I can kill the nuker before he sleeps me and heals himself and then nukes me into oblivion.
And then we have the funny B-sps. Not only do they give nuker's *4 the dmg, but also increase spell release time and chance of debuffs landing (including sleep). Great job NCsoft. When will we see some blessed ss??? That not only gives melee *4 the dmg, but also increase att.spd and increase the chance of landing stun and increase the chance of dagger-blows to land. My guess would be somewhere around never.
I can take the *4 dmg on b-sps but not the rest of the stuff.
And then we have the armor bonus and weaon SA's.
As stated in other post much like this one, nukers get: 15% cast spd from armor, 15% cast spd from SA acumen and then the increase from b-sps by 7% (can't remember the exact % so don't flame me about it). That's a total of 37% increase in cast.spd, not bad. And above that you get + wit on the armor and/or +int.
Then we take a look at the same type of things for melee: +4% att.spd from armor and +7% att.spd from SA haste = 11%, WOHOO!! And add that to the little we get from the +dex we have on the armor.
Anyone seeing anthing odd here???
And about tatoo's, why should I have to set up my char in a certain way only to be able to survive against a nuker or an archer?? And what should i sacrifice?? p.attk or evasion/crit rate/run spd?? Well I guess that I could gimp my dex since I hardly ever crit anyway, even with SA focus, can't evade nukes and run spd isn't doing me much good now anyway since I'm dead as soon as a nuker target's me.
Is this really how all nuker experience it?? that you have to set up your char in a pre-determined way? Or do you have more options perhaps? Like a + con tat perhaps, since you can gimp your str into oblivion without ever noticing it. or why not add that little +dex tat so you can kite better?? and then add a + wit tat for that little extra cast.spd that you need so much. Or why not add a + int tat so you can do even more dmg and perhaps even 3-shot a melee instead of 4 or 5 shot him. And don't tell me that you can't 4-shot a melee, I've been 4-shotted alot of times by all kind of nukers.
And as a side note, a Tyrant with 19k HP is only possible with full buffs = song of vitality, BtB lvl6,+5 con, ogre totem, SA health and doom heavy. True that he would stand up alot longer but he has less moving spd than a nuker in walk mode. He ends up at like 115-120 moving.spd at the most. So in short, he's dead against any archer/nuker anyway.
And last but not least (no matter what you nukers say) M.atk.
According to what I have read in other threads, m.atk doesn't matter that much, it's the power of the spell that matters.
I checked something on that, a nuker with around 100 m.atk (same lvl as me) did around 300 dmg with the strongest nuke, then she equiped the weapon and got around 700 m.atk, BAM 1.8k dmg. So m.atk doesn't matter??
I really fear what a nuker with 4k+ m.atk does in dmg, prolly around 6-7k dmg on a single nuke without a crit.
For myself as a melee, with around 100 p.atk i hit for 10-20 dmg, with 700 p.atk i do around 50 dmg/fist =100 dmg.
So if I would get 4k+ p.atk i would do what?? 1k dmg per hit?? And that vs a nuker who can throw spells faster than I can hit :(
I mean i have awsome att.spd (1051 fully buffed) while a SH in my clan said he had 1100+ fully buffed, and they are the slowest nukers. SpS have reported 1400+ cast.spd :eek:
So i say that nuker's are WAY overpowered as it is. How to change it??
just a few suggestions:
1: remove b-sps from the game
2: make m.def matter something, atm it doesn't matter if you have 400 or 800, a nuke still hurts like hell and the sleep still lands.
3: take sleep away from the nukers and make it the buffers job to sleep, give the buffers increased MP-regen to be able to sleep and buff, this also gives prophets something else to do besides buffing every 20 min. And the nukers can join party's as DD's instead of sleepers.
4: Robes are made of simple cloth, make the p.def mirror that.
5: make it possible to interupt archers when they shoot.
6: make it possible to evade all nukes exept AoE ones. one should be able to evade all skills (including melee skills).
This is just my 2 cents.
And since i can't stop it anyway, FLAME AWAY!!! (try and prove me wrong this time)
Thats the longest post ive ever seen and didnt read it all so sorry if i am wrong. But you said melee stand no chance what so ever, that is false. As a glad which is similar to tyrant, we each have a long range attack so we can at least hurt the cp on the way to getting in range, we both have massive HP and as a tyrant you have even more and some kick *** run speed aswell, once that range is closed you have the option to cripple and stun the foe, my only option is to use a clumsey blunt and 'try' a weak *** stun, or unload a can of charge stone fury on their ***. With full buffs you can resist debuffs, i do it all the time, sleep never lands if you have the correct armour on. I wear NM light so i happily resist sleep so thats not a worry for me. In mass pvp people dont waste time casting slow they just unload nukes and arrows on you. I think the over power'd range vs melee is blown out of proportion, the whole point of being ranged is to hurt your target before it reaches you. The idea is to close that 900 range and unleash swift death on the low HP foe. The only problem i think pvp has is that ranged/nukers have a slow spell, when in fact the melees should have this instead. Give me hamstring and take away a mages cripple and the balance will be restored, but then id propbably be over power'd and all the ranged would be on here moaning away.
The fact remains that any nuker or archer class would still be better in EVERY given PVP situation than your Gladiator and his Tyrant. ANY!!! They do more damage, have long range attacks, have great debuffs, and have other helpful ranged PVP spells such as slow, sleep, cancel, curses, anchor, silence.
A Tyrant or a Gladiator has zero chance vs any nuker, even if the fight starts at range 0. Any Glad or Tyrant care to put 50m up against one of our nukers?
With my nuker, I can easily kill both a gladiator and a tyrant, in the same fight, buffed or unbuffed. Heck, I'll even go so far as to say I can beat 3 of any of those classes without much difficulty at all.
Slow lands almost every time, and for a necro he can land any spell he wants by using curse gloom first. You can't reach a caster by the time your slowed, or paralyzed, or slept, and even if you do, who cares. The most those 2 classes can do is ~1800 damage with Hurricane or TSS. A Necro laughs that off, glooms you, and if needed, drains back all that HP.
I won't even mention having a summon out for an additional 5k HP (10k with party buffs) with transfer pain.
The fact remains that any nuker or archer class would still be better in EVERY given PVP situation than your Gladiator and his Tyrant. ANY!!! They do more damage, have long range attacks, have great debuffs, and have other helpful ranged PVP spells such as slow, sleep, cancel, curses, anchor, silence.
A Tyrant or a Gladiator has zero chance vs any nuker, even if the fight starts at range 0. Any Glad or Tyrant care to put 50m up against one of our nukers?
With my nuker, I can easily kill both a gladiator and a tyrant, in the same fight, buffed or unbuffed. Heck, I'll even go so far as to say I can beat 3 of any of those classes without much difficulty at all.
Slow lands almost every time, and for a necro he can land any spell he wants by using curse gloom first. You can't reach a caster by the time your slowed, or paralyzed, or slept, and even if you do, who cares. The most those 2 classes can do is ~1800 damage with Hurricane or TSS. A Necro laughs that off, glooms you, and if needed, drains back all that HP.
I won't even mention having a summon out for an additional 5k HP (10k with party buffs) with transfer pain.
Depends what level zone the pvp is in. At top end pvp which im sure we all tested to the limits on the PTS, during olympiad settings, nukers were nothing special. I recorded about 50 of my olympi fights theres several on there were ive beat down mages and on a few lucky occasions necros where ive reflected anchor or silence on them. Ripos stance owns mages debuffs, but of course this is all 1v1 olympi rules top end pvp. It doesnt really apply to the majority of the population as everyone seems to have buff slaves and or gank squads.
Lionheart, ripo stance, tss, ts, 2x stones, dss, 2 stones, ts, 5 charges, tss, ts, 2 stones dss. fights over by now, im either dead on the floor or im t bagging some guys corpse. In the case of ranged switch dss to blaster. Glads and tyrants can skill spam if they want, for less power but faster speed its possible, its those magic little things known as charge stones. Every one forgets about these but they save your life.
Man, these nerf the ranged classes annoy me. Look if you want to get some love for melee, I'm all for that, but don't nerf my class to make yours better. I've played this game from Prelude, so I started with no sleep, no accumen, no bsps, ect ect ect... I'm finally enjoying playing my character.
Also close range I've had a glad unleash one special on me, that's my cp with some of my hp gone. Had a da sic his unbuffed panther on me hitting me for avg 400 damage per hit. 2 hits 800 damage half my CP gone. Had to ask him to stop in case he killed me.
So do melee need some help, yes. Are they at that much of a disadvantage? I don't think so... archers are hard to pin down. Mages, easy to catch, but you'll take crazy damage getting to him/her. Once you close the gap, you'll victimize him/her.
Thats the longest post ive ever seen and didnt read it all so sorry if i am wrong. But you said melee stand no chance what so ever, that is false. As a glad which is similar to tyrant, we each have a long range attack so we can at least hurt the cp on the way to getting in range, we both have massive HP and as a tyrant you have even more and some kick *** run speed aswell, once that range is closed you have the option to cripple and stun the foe, my only option is to use a clumsey blunt and 'try' a weak *** stun, or unload a can of charge stone fury on their ***. With full buffs you can resist debuffs, i do it all the time, sleep never lands if you have the correct armour on. I wear NM light so i happily resist sleep so thats not a worry for me. In mass pvp people dont waste time casting slow they just unload nukes and arrows on you. I think the over power'd range vs melee is blown out of proportion, the whole point of being ranged is to hurt your target before it reaches you. The idea is to close that 900 range and unleash swift death on the low HP foe. The only problem i think pvp has is that ranged/nukers have a slow spell, when in fact the melees should have this instead. Give me hamstring and take away a mages cripple and the balance will be restored, but then id propbably be over power'd and all the ranged would be on here moaning away.
A tyrant might have a little more HP if he doesn't go -con, but the gladiator makes up for that by having approximatly twice the CP of the tyrant. And yes, I have a hell of alot more run spd than a Gladiator but that doesn't help much when your slept after 2 steps, then nuked and slept again. And I don't have NM light nor can I afford it since it costs to much.
And when it comes to comparing Glads with Tyrants there are alot that seperates them. For instance, glads have heavy armor, more CP, higher crit rate and stronger and more effective attacks. Tyrants on the other hand have faster attacks, high evasion, faster run spd and the totems to make them stronger. The totems comes however with a price that I'm not so certain that all knows, for that we gain we als loose something exept for wolf totem. The glads also have Lionheart which increases resistance to sleep. That's why you have lesser problems with sleep than a tyrant has.
If your going to pvp you have to get pvp armour. You cant claim your class is less power'd because you havent the equipment to play it correctly. Heavy armour wont save anyone from a mage anyway. To kill a mage you need run speed, m def and a high damage output, tyrants ahve all of these, when the 900 range is closed down a mage is dead. You could always try a bow, with that crazy atk speed tyrants have, they can be pretty nasty pvp archers.
So do melee need some help, yes. Are they at that much of a disadvantage? I don't think so... archers are hard to pin down. Mages, easy to catch, but you'll take crazy damage getting to him/her. Once you close the gap, you'll victimize him/her.
IF we close the gap you mean??
So say that we don't want to nerf the nukers, but instead wants to give melee better chance by say:
1: increase natural resistance to sleep, hold, paralyze and general debuffs.
2: make m.def worth the same as p.def. Meaning that nukes and defuffs land less when you have higher m.def.
I would say that mages should not get slow or speed reduction debuffs, but pure melee should. classes with massive speed and ranged attacks, like SR, should not be able to also cripple their target aswell, no 1 can stand up to that, its insanity. Melees should all get entangle or hamstring and mages/archers should lose their slowing skills, solving one of the games biggest problems, and most likely causing another. Lineage is like dominos.
If your going to pvp you have to get pvp armour. You cant claim your class is less power'd because you havent the equipment to play it correctly. Heavy armour wont save anyone from a mage anyway. To kill a mage you need run speed, m def and a high damage output, tyrants ahve all of these, when the 900 range is closed down a mage is dead. You could always try a bow, with that crazy atk speed tyrants have, they can be pretty nasty pvp archers.
First of all i doubt that tyrants have higher m.def than a gladiator.
2nd, If i wanted to use a bow than i would have made an archer, and frankly i'm getting tired of hearing ppl telling melee chars to pick up a bow. My char is a master at fighting with his fists, not fighting with a bow. But it seems to be the general idea that melee's should abandon the way the class was designed to go down.
3rd, why shuld I need an A-grade armor t take down a b-grade nuker as is the case now. I don't stand a chance against a nuker 5-10 lvl below me even. If I die because I meet a nuker in Top A-grade and he is atleast the same lvl, then I won't complain. But when I get beaten by a nuker 1 grade lower than me and 5 or more lvls below me then there is something wrong.
I would say that mages should not get slow or speed reduction debuffs, but pure melee should. classes with massive speed and ranged attacks, like SR, should not be able to also cripple their target aswell, no 1 can stand up to that, its insanity. Melees should all get entangle or hamstring and mages/archers should lose their slowing skills, solving one of the games biggest problems, and most likely causing another. Lineage is like dominos.
Taking away those would solve one part of the problem, atleast with archers. But the biggest problem with nukers is that they at 90% land their sleep, unless you have mental aegis ofcourse, then they only land it 80% of the time.
And as a little side note, Not to you personally SpS, but ppl seem to think that cripple is a ranged skill, it's not.
All classes have a weakness, glads and tyrants are mages. We cant expect to beat every class all the time. It doesnt however mean we are completly hopeless. PvP changes with Armour grades, lvl 61+ pvp is totally different from lvl 52 pvp, and it changed again with c4 and the lvl 76+ pvp. Nukers will always have high damage out put and range on us, all we can do is think of new ways in which to counter our weakness. I dont know how you lost to someone a whole grade below you, i rarely lose to people lower level then myself and if i do its always a close fight. No single class except necro has ever totally owned me. I have limited experiance with tyrants as ive only played on my brothers lvl 78 one on the PTS, but ive been a glad since beta. I can say that my ability to own pve and vs any melee class makes up for the fact that mages own me. The way i fight them when i have to is either charge head on and try to close the gap before im dead, or you can play dirty and distract them with pm's whilst you inch closer then when they dont expect it, wail on em with all my moves, and if they survive, run away like a little girl.
*Cripple isnt ranged, but with a 60 second dash totem getting in range for a tyrant is a piece of cake.
*Sleep doesnt land as often as people think. If you have PvP armour which has a 70% resistance then it doesnt land often at all. If your in the wrong armour you deserve to get slept nuked slept nuked, its the way mages fight.
I dont know how you lost to someone a whole grade below you
It was quite easy actually.
I got slept, nuked, slept, nuked, slept, nuked, slept, nuked.
And then we have the necro who paralyzed me, danced a bit, nuked me, danced a bit more, nuked me again, bowed and then finished me off.
I also do pretty good against melee, as long as it's a AW or a PW. Can't stun a destroyer, TH, DA, Paldin or most of the tanks exept the occasional SK. And if i don't land stun then im pretty much screwed. I can say with pretty certanty that tyrants have the worst stun that exists in this game, if it lands, which is seldom, it's pretty much canceld after 1-3 hits. The only classes that seems to be affected by my stun is AW's, PW's and healers. And trust me, i've tried it out to the fullest, if i stun and continue hitting then it's almost garantueed to be canceld before i strike the 4th time.
What your saying you lose to melees now? I dont use stun on ym glad and i dominate every melee except destroyers. Use charge stones so you dont sit there using focus force, it makes such a massive difference. Sleep and paralize is less of a problem for me due to lionheart being ownage. But get the right armour which has sleep resistance and most mages wont even attempt to sleep you.
I dont understand how as a tyrant you lose to loads of melee classes tho. Stun is nice but not important, you can always use the time they are in shock to charge up to level 7 focus. What totems do you use for close up pvp with a melee?
*Sleep doesnt land as often as people think. If you have PvP armour which has a 70% resistance then it doesnt land often at all. If your in the wrong armour you deserve to get slept nuked slept nuked, its the way mages fight.
So what you are saying is that pre 61 all classes shall bow down to nukers since they can sleep?? And at the moment you hit 61 you shall be able to clad yourself in a brand new Nighmare armor??
*Cripple isnt ranged, but with a 60 second dash totem getting in range for a tyrant is a piece of cake
It would be, if I didn't get shredded to pieces on the way there or slept before i take the 2nd step. And that's only under the circumstance then that i don't get slowed/entangeled or canceled on the way.
What do you suggest then, sleep shouldnt be nerfed because in the end that affects everyone, you wont get far in parties if your sleeper cant sleep mobs because melees moaned about it. In a 1v1 fight mage should always beat a melee, they are supposed to be stronger in that sense.
You could always buy a weapon with SA mental shield on it, although i dont know if a tyrant can get it to activate.
NM light isnt the only armour with sleep resistance, if you want to seriously pvp mages you will have to get this armour, and when you do, i can tell you that tyrants do really well in pvp.
What your saying you lose to melees now? I dont use stun on ym glad and i dominate every melee except destroyers. Use charge stones so you dont sit there using focus force, it makes such a massive difference. Sleep and paralize is less of a problem for me due to lionheart being ownage. But get the right armour which has sleep resistance and most mages wont even attempt to sleep you.
I dont understand how as a tyrant you lose to loads of melee classes tho. Stun is nice but not important, you can always use the time they are in shock to charge up to level 7 focus. What totems do you use for close up pvp with a melee?
Bear until I start loosing HP, then heal up with ogre and pound away with puma. A tyrants biggest asset is his stun and attack spd. And with that atk.spd I brk the stun before I even have time to charge up. But maybe it's time to lay of the old dex tatoo's and get me some +con instead. Maybe i was to naive to think that you actually could use the tats to make what you wanted with the char. I went for max atk.spd and max run spd but that obviosly isn't working with this game.
And besides, you can't compare a gladi with a tyrant, to much seperates them. As I said, it does very much to have heavy armor, much CP, high crit rate and very strong skills.
What do you suggest then, sleep shouldnt be nerfed because in the end that affects everyone, you wont get far in parties if your sleeper cant sleep mobs because melees moaned about it. In a 1v1 fight mage should always beat a melee, they are supposed to be stronger in that sense.
You could always buy a weapon with SA mental shield on it, although i dont know if a tyrant can get it to activate.
NM light isnt the only armour with sleep resistance, if you want to seriously pvp mages you will have to get this armour, and when you do, i can tell you that tyrants do really well in pvp.
Give sleep to buffers and give them higher MP-regen to go with it. That way nukers can do what they where meant to do and the prophet can be played more activly and seize to be a buff-bot.
Or make the sleep only work to the fullest extent in PvE not PvP.
Either way, I'm gonna stop now. I'm tired of being cannon-fodder and only exist to be a distraction. Just needed to vent some of my irritation. I guess the only choices left are to quit or get on the back of the reroll train and make a nuker instead. And since I can't seem to be able to play my char in the way that suits me best then there isn't much options left.
What do you suggest then, sleep shouldnt be nerfed because in the end that affects everyone, you wont get far in parties if your sleeper cant sleep mobs because melees moaned about it. In a 1v1 fight mage should always beat a melee, they are supposed to be stronger in that sense.
You could always buy a weapon with SA mental shield on it, although i dont know if a tyrant can get it to activate.
NM light isnt the only armour with sleep resistance, if you want to seriously pvp mages you will have to get this armour, and when you do, i can tell you that tyrants do really well in pvp.
"in a 1v1 a mage should always beat a melee"......interesting. Im starting to wonder if its not true, from the decisions NCsoft makes. However I highly doubt that if you were to question the game developers that they would say that no melee is designed to beat a mage. Mages are supposed to dish it out but they are not meant to take it, problem is its rare a mage ever takes anything thanks to godly crowd control.
You bring up the sleep/root resist armor. And I think this was NCs horrrrrrrrrrrible way of handling bsps making debuffs land 99% of the time. Yeah now Im not gonna get slept, nuked, slept, nuked, slept, nuked. Now Ill just get slowed and silenced, or just paralyzed.
I would not nerf sleep, I would not nerf silence, I would not nerf poison, hex, slow, etc etc. I would fix bsps so that they do same damage, increase cast speed, but they shouldn't guarantee debuffs. Sorry but debuffs landing 99.999% of the time is broken....hmm kinda like dagger specials landing 99.999% of the time. And just like those specials, debuffs are supposed to miss sometimes. If your target has decent jewels, You shouldnt be able to sleep them like they are a mob. Bsps should increase the land rate a little, but currently the % is unacceptable.
Heck, some mobs are harder to sleep than players and NM is not a viable option for everyone since it's an armor you can use when you're 61+. Also, it does not suit all classes and saying that debuffs aint broken because there is NM is some pretty flawed logic I say.
"in a 1v1 a mage should always beat a melee"......interesting. Im starting to wonder if its not true, from the decisions NCsoft makes. However I highly doubt that if you were to question the game developers that they would say that no melee is designed to beat a mage.
I actually have come to the conclusion that this is exactly how the game developers meant it to be. At least up to this point. Who knows what decisions they will make for future chronicles.
I also do believe that things do balance more the higher the level... The problem is that people are looking only at the "here and now" and not making that mental leap to the highest levels where there is equipment that will help both melee and mage (with regards to sleep/stun).
I feel that the characters are on a great arc and the problem is that the players only see the beginning and middle and use that as a basis for their entire opinion. IN a game where it takes a long long time to get to the highest lvls, and where there are many more chronicles to come, I can only imagine how things can possibly even out.
Having said that, I really have come to the conclusion that this is how NC wants it. People say that these classes are unbalanced and I say that the direct evidence seems to say they are balanced, at least for low to mid levels. And by balanced I mean that they are tuned to their roles.
Meaning that the melee characters are NOT supposed to be close to ranged at low and mid level and for some reason NC finds this acceptable. They seem to have a definate idea about the role of melee... meat shields and little else.
I wonder if in Korea there are more melee than mages. We already know that there are a lot of Elven Elders. Perhaps their sensibilities are very different. We have already been touching upon this in other discussions.
Some have even said that in korea, the underdog class is the class to play because it is harder to work.
It might be that our sensibilites are just completely different and we just "don't get it".
After all.. how many people are saying "clerics are completely unbalanced with Tyrants!!!" Well.. you don't because you wouldn't normally pit them against each other. So what I'm suggesting is that in Korea melee against range is a no brainer. You don't do it. Melee has its role and ranged has theirs.
I also do believe that things do balance more the higher the level... The problem is that people are looking only at the "here and now" and not making that mental leap to the highest levels where there is equipment that will help both melee and mage (with regards to sleep/stun).
Yes, there are equipment that helps both types of classes, the problem is that the robes seems to have more benefits then the light armor. for instance, DC-robe vs DC light:
Robes
P. Def. +8%
Casting Spd. +15%
Speed +7
Small decrease in chance of spell interruption
Paralysis Resistance +50%
WIT +2
MEN -2
= 6 benefits and 1 drawback
Light armor
Atk. Spd. +4%
P. Atk. +4%
Paralysis Resistance +50%
STR +1
CON -1
=4 benefits and 1 drawback, and have lesser % on the statchanges then it's robe counterpart.
So either way nukers get the high end of the stick here aswell.
Meaning that the melee characters are NOT supposed to be close to ranged at low and mid level and for some reason NC finds this acceptable. They seem to have a definate idea about the role of melee... meat shields and little else.
The problem is that the current status on mine server atleast is that if you are a melee then you have no choice but to fight ranged fighters. Nukers and archers are taking over the server, you see fewer melee in general and more and more nukers each day in passing.
The worst part of C4, which made a very feeble attempt to bring balance between melee and ranged DDs, is that the spells they added to hinder ranged classes are actually more crippling on melee DD classes!!!
Lots of new spells slow players down. This doens't hurt ranged classes, THEY CAN STILL SHOOT AT THEIR TARGETS EVEN IF THEY HAVE ZERO SPEED!! You cast a slow on a melee DD and they will never reach anything before dying, even a rooted target.
Most of the super proppecy buffs slow movement speed. Again, ranged classes benefit from the bonuses and the slowed movement is minimized because THEY HAVE RANGED ATTACKS! What melee class would want Prophecy of Fire cast upon them in PVP, lowering their already super slow speed another ~20 ponts?? NONE OF THEM, EVER!!!
These slowing prophecy buffs are actually debuffs on melee DD classes. GJ NC!
Not to mention what they did to berserker spirit, increase in movement spd AND lowering m.def. Way to go NCsoft, give nukers more run spd and make it easier to land their curses. The run spd increase is good for melee's aswell but did they really have to decrease the m.def?? I mean, most melee already have pretty low m.def to start with. :mad:
I actually have come to the conclusion that this is exactly how the game developers meant it to be. At least up to this point. Who knows what decisions they will make for future chronicles.
I also do believe that things do balance more the higher the level... The problem is that people are looking only at the "here and now" and not making that mental leap to the highest levels where there is equipment that will help both melee and mage (with regards to sleep/stun).
I dont think this is how the game was intended. And I think it works quite in reverse to how you dsecribe. The lower level, the more balanced. The higher, the more embalances are compounded. True once you get high enough, A grade armors can help you out. But 70% resist to sleep/root, is only gonna help me against sleep/root, just means that they have to switch strategies. And as for skills, very little helps balance out range to melee. EXCEPT 76+ skills in a few cases. But only a few classes that I know of get temporary reflection of magic effects.
All classes get a passive resistance to sleep and hold, but again this just means that they nuker will use other debuffs, and seeing as how most nukers get magic attacks that lower resistance+do damage+slow target+lowers attack and casting speed. I could care less about the sleep/hold resist.
And I really dont want to have to get to 76+ to be of any use, Id like to be able to enjoy the game inbetween now and then.
Sleep, Root and Slow are THE spells for nukers. If you have decent jewels and can't be slept, rooted or slowed then that nuker is going down, especially if you can stun them. Hmmm... I will ammend that... That spellhowler is going down. I can't get my head around some of the casting speed that other classes enjoy so it is possible that they will be able to out nuke you.
But with Aura Flare changed I don't see why it shouldn't tip in the melee's favor.
And yes, I am thinking more on the ability to wear armors which resist sleep as well as the greater cp and hp of the melee.
I recall one time I was able to slow a particular melee but couldn't understand why he wasn't going down (sleep never landed because of his armor). That is when I realized it was the CP which was the issue.
But again, I will reiterate, I think that NC does not view melee as they view the ranged classes and that I truly believe that they are balanced this way. I only see this from the overwhelming empirical evidence that I see.
But if there are so many melee who are complaining about "imbalance" and it seems that nothing is done to even things out then what other conclusion can we come up with. That NC has no clue? Sorry... I don't think we are any more astute than the people who have created and lived with the game through the several years it took to develop. We might have different opinions on how things should have been done but I believe it is this way on purpose.
Not saying that that is "good"... Just saying that it seems that they have other ideas regarding the role of melee in this game.
what I think is NC soft made bsps for nukers, cuz sps wasnt good enough for them. And bsps made debuffs broken, it made debuffs land almost 100% of the time. Dont tell me to get better jewels, I have gotten slept through UD by someone 10 levels below me. But instead of fixing their mistake and nerfing bsps (which would upset anyone that uses spells) they design armor with resist, give us 76+ skills that give us sleep/root passive resistance, they give us skills to shield us from magic effect periodicaly. They keep adding content to compensate for insane bsps debuff land rates. But they dont compensate for slow, and silence, and para, just sleep root, so the effect of this balancing is insignificant. Unless the melee has a bow, or a friend, a nuker can kill the melee at their leisure.
Bsps are not allowed in olypiad, and for good reason. They actualy want the classess to "fight". Not just see who casts their debuff first. And I think no bsps being allowed in olypiad is evidence for how broken they are.
Until I see someone say officialy that range is SUPPOSED to be superior to melee, Im not buying it. Seriously, go out and fight a melee without bsps. A class should not go from killable to untouchable with the simple addition of 1 consumable.
Seriously, go out and fight a melee without bsps. A class should not go from killable to untouchable with the simple addition of 1 consumable.
Oh.. but I have... it was close but my slow was able to land. As a matter of fact it was a battle with no shots whatsoever. Had my slow not landed I would have been toast.
But that is the odd trade off since (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I believe certain melee with stun can use it on a mage if they are not flagged but mages can't use sleep, slow on melee if they are not flagged.
And yes... it is interesting that Blessed shots are not allowed in the Olympiad. Probably better fights too.
Well.. I don't know what to say but I will stick by my hypothesis that this is how they want it. Let's see what happens in Chronicle 5. Because beleive me ... it is very dissapointing to see mages all over the place.
what I think is NC soft made bsps for nukers, cuz sps wasnt good enough for them. And bsps made debuffs broken, it made debuffs land almost 100% of the time. Dont tell me to get better jewels, I have gotten slept through UD by someone 10 levels below me. But instead of fixing their mistake and nerfing bsps (which would upset anyone that uses spells) they design armor with resist, give us 76+ skills that give us sleep/root passive resistance, they give us skills to shield us from magic effect periodicaly. They keep adding content to compensate for insane bsps debuff land rates. But they dont compensate for slow, and silence, and para, just sleep root, so the effect of this balancing is insignificant. Unless the melee has a bow, or a friend, a nuker can kill the melee at their leisure.
Bsps are not allowed in olypiad, and for good reason. They actualy want the classess to "fight". Not just see who casts their debuff first. And I think no bsps being allowed in olypiad is evidence for how broken they are.
Until I see someone say officialy that range is SUPPOSED to be superior to melee, Im not buying it. Seriously, go out and fight a melee without bsps. A class should not go from killable to untouchable with the simple addition of 1 consumable.
BSPS is just the first nail in the coffin. To claim that if BSPS were removed that it would be even is a bit misleading in my opinion because there are so many other facets to the debate.
The protection offered by physical defense/evasion is significantly less then the protection offered by range and crowd control spells.
This is a fundamental flaw in the game. It will not be corrected because the designers probably don't even recognize it as a flaw. The game is extremely simplistic and the designers have shown that they're not exactly innovators in the field. They have an amazing graphics design team though... so they've got that going for them.
If you look at every major system in the game its pretty flawed but that's because the designers probably don't recognize it as a problem because the game is making money. They don't get paid to fix the game, they get paid to make each new chronicle which is a major selling point. Advertising that the game finally has balanced PVP to offer a more rewarding PVP experience is far harder to market then adding a new dragon and a new continent.
I'm in favor of them going down the balance road so they can claim that its a true fair pvp game that's more about skill then about time investment or class selection. Its a difficult road though because you can't just make it melee vs ranged then and it has to be all classes.
The basic rule that I'd suggest is that it consumes the same % of total HP/MP for any class in the game to kill a generic mob of equal level. Classes that kill faster offer less relative safety while hunting and slower classes are safer.
This would require a relatively minor rework of the current game because they already have most of the skills that they'd need. It'd just take a new design team that is trying to make a pvp game that isn't biased towards certain key classes.
I think if we want to argue that melee should be useful in PVP then we should argue that all classes should be competitive in PVP (even dwarves maybe).
A regular attack should probably cost some amount of mp (less then a bow obviously) and have the damage adjusted appropriately. This helps remove the Archer/Mage Out of Mana defense.
But that is the odd trade off since (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I believe certain melee with stun can use it on a mage if they are not flagged but mages can't use sleep, slow on melee if they are not flagged.
This isn't that mysterious.
Hammer Crush and Stun Shot work against a non-flagged opponent. Shield Stun does not. The reason for this is that Hammer Crush and Stun Shot both cause damage and in the pre-CP days had the potential to accidentally kill another player and risk causing the user to go red. Shield Stun, root, sleep, slow, etc don't cause damage so the caster has no risk of going red so they would be incredibly effective griefing tools.
Now that there is CP, those attacks have almost no chance of making someone go red from using it on someone fighting a mob and getting the killing blow so they're a relatively risk free griefing tool if you're trying to get someone killed by a mob.
This seems to just be an oversight on the part of the developers.
Seriously, go out and fight a melee without bsps. A class should not go from killable to untouchable with the simple addition of 1 consumable.
Oh.. but I have... it was close but my slow was able to land. As a matter of fact it was a battle with no shots whatsoever. Had my slow not landed I would have been toast.
Isn't that how it is supposed to be?? Dependent on who land what skill or who plays his char better??
I mean, as Ecronyte said, a class should not go from killable to untouchable with the addition of 1 consumable.
As there is there is definatly more things that need changing but removing blessed spiritshots would be a good start. Nukers can land their debuffs with regular sps to, and if they do the melee is practicly dead, but if he misses then the nuker is dead. I can definatly live with that 50-50 chance, atleast it's an even fight.
Another interesting addition would be passive resistances earlier in the game and not only for sleep/root/para and those things, but for stun/bleed and poison aswell, depending on what class your making. If you make a nuker, then you canget resistances to stun/poison/bleed, and if you make a melee then you get resistances against sleep/root/para. Make those passives come at, say, lvl 40, 52, 62 and 72 perhaps??
That way all classes get something they need and we don't have to nerf any perticular class but can limit the nerfing to cover only b-sps. Let the nukers keep the b-sps but remove the increased chance of debuffs landing or remove b-sps completly.
Probably gonna raise a scream from all nukers saying they can't solo any more, but IMO they are only lowered to the melee's lvl.
Then let's give Tanks a running shield skill; one for Pat and one for Mat; you trigger it, and your tank rushes forward a set distance with doubled Pdef or Mdef, with a somewhat "long" cooldown. and ONLY tanks get it ok?
That way you have a somewhat decent chance of closing in the gap, and swing a couple of times; the charge doesn't make damage by itself and requires a shield to use. Is this along the lines of what you desire for melee?
*sigh* Try to understand, if Koreans AREN'T complaining about melee in general maybe the way they play over there doesn't show this so called "glaring and obvious domination of ranged against melee". I've seen Korean videos and every encounter in the arena in teams has at least 2 tank classes; with Dark Avengers dominating the pack. they go as far as playing prophets as combat classes, and lose miserably to melee or other prophets; I've seen EE duels and they are all the rage.
And when they lose they have this face of "****, maybe next time"; they don't go "****, if they balanced classes I would have not lost" so maybe INDEED there is a very different perception of how the game has to be played.
I still belileve we should give time to melee; since they are not completely hopeless in mass PvP.
Now regarding the "Mages shouldn't completely pwn melees 1on1" comments. Even in super western D&D low level mages are to be feared. by the rules; a lvl 1 mage can completely destroy a lvl 1 fighter 1on1 with just ONE LEVEL 1 SPELL. And no one complains that mages pwn in D&D. High level spellcasters are so powerful that they can decimate ARMIES. So a mage worth his salt should be able to PWNBBQROFLES a melee any day of the week if he is not caught sleep or with his pants down. And L2's mages do not have the power to wish you out of existance; not even in the same league, so in theorycraft, mages are ok and melee gets what it deserves: death by spell.
On the other hand, melee has numbers; or should have numbers over mages and archers. 3 to 1 at the very least, 5 to 1 recommended, 10 to 1 strongly encouraged. With the numbers reversed is easy to see who dominates who, get used to it. :p
Then let's give Tanks a running shield skill; one for Pat and one for Mat; you trigger it, and your tank rushes forward a set distance with doubled Pdef or Mdef, with a somewhat "long" cooldown. and ONLY tanks get it ok?
That way you have a somewhat decent chance of closing in the gap, and swing a couple of times; the charge doesn't make damage by itself and requires a shield to use. Is this along the lines of what you desire for melee?
*sigh* Try to understand, if Koreans AREN'T complaining about melee in general maybe the way they play over there doesn't show this so called "glaring and obvious domination of ranged against melee". I've seen Korean videos and every encounter in the arena in teams has at least 2 tank classes; with Dark Avengers dominating the pack. they go as far as playing prophets as combat classes, and lose miserably to melee or other prophets; I've seen EE duels and they are all the rage.
And when they lose they have this face of "****, maybe next time"; they don't go "****, if they balanced classes I would have not lost" so maybe INDEED there is a very different perception of how the game has to be played.
I still belileve we should give time to melee; since they are not completely hopeless in mass PvP.
Now regarding the "Mages shouldn't completely pwn melees 1on1" comments. Even in super western D&D low level mages are to be feared. by the rules; a lvl 1 mage can completely destroy a lvl 1 fighter 1on1 with just ONE LEVEL 1 SPELL. And no one complains that mages pwn in D&D. High level spellcasters are so powerful that they can decimate ARMIES. So a mage worth his salt should be able to PWNBBQROFFLES a melee any day of the week if he is not caught sleep or with his pants down. And L2's mages do not have the power to wish you out of existance; not even in the same league, so in theorycraft, mages are ok and melee gets what it deserves: death by spell.
On the other hand, melee has numbers; or should have numbers over mages and archers. 3 to 1 at the very least, 5 to 1 recommended, 10 to 1 strongly encouraged. With the numbers reversed is easy to see who dominates who, get used to it. :p
I have no idea how what you just said added to the discussion. This is not D&D. From your post I would say that you play a nuker, and so have no problem with being able to "PWNBBQROFFLES" melee 1v1.
As far as how the game works in Korea, you seem to be much more expert than I am, so I will leave that alone.
And the last bit: I had a little trouble understanding, but it seems that you were saying that in PvP, a melee should have 10 people in order to take out ONE nuker. This is strange, because in mass pvp, it is rare to ever encounter a nuker who is not in a nuker party. Now if one party has 6 nukers and 3 buffers, how many melee will it take to bring them down? I am sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but it seems that you are saying that a nuker should be able to take 3 melee pretty easily, have a good chance at 5, and probably loose to 10. Something is wrong there.
Oh also, just a final thought. Melee will not have numbers on a nuker if everyone rerolls a nuker. People like to be more than cannon fodder.
I have repeatedly stated that I do in fact; play a tank class.. and am planning on going paladin/phoenix knight. I have absolutely no complains on a nuker being able to toast a knight in 4-5 shots when tank is properly buffed and in fact think; that it is a good design.
so yes, a 5 nuker 3 healer party should be faced by at least 50 melee chars. But I can see that no one in "his right mind" would ever roll a melee until/unless melee is giving C2 dagger uberness. I'm not in my right mind; I always play tanks in videogames; I enjoy punishment. :)
Now seriously: Strenght of melee will always be in numbers; you can't sincerely (or you shouldn't at least) hope that one day you'll be able to go 1on1 with any nuker and not have to depend on a lot of luck to survive. with a background on asian RPGs; I knew exactly what I was jumping into, a class hard to level, hard to defeat anyone with (except other melees and perhaps archers) and slow as hell when running.
I bow down to your obvious superiority in Asian RPGs. This is my first one.
I dont expect to 1v1 -anyone- close to my level. I'm a Warlord. What I do expect is to be able to do damage. I have to wait until lvl 77 for a ranged attack, I dont get UD, I dont get shield defense. Hell, a nuker my level doesnt have to 4 shot me. 2-3 is all it will take, and I have plenty of HP/CP.
Oh, and 1v1? I cant even take a nuker if he is out of MP. I cant -catch- him because of the running/attacking issue where the "target is too far." I cant land a stun because nukers can nerf their str and up their con with no problems.
While you may like punishment, I think that most melee players have a problem with being killed over and over in all pvp settings.
But of course, nothing will be done about this. There is a new "balance" thread every other day, and C4 has nerfed melee even more.
My suggestions:
1. Remove BSPS entirely or remove the bonus to casting speed.
2. Reduce the 15% bonus to casting speed.
3. Do not allow nukers to touch STR in tats.
4. Give -all- melee classes a ranged slow skill.
I don't claim superiority, I just have played a lot of asian made RPGs for consoles; and knight classes always function the same unless they are pivotal to the story, if not they are merely cannon fodder for mage classes.
for a quick lesson on class imbalance check out Final Fantasy Tactics. Knights are the slowest to attack, have the fewer move and jump spaces and the only thing they have going for them is lots of HP and their "break" skills, wich land less than 25% of the time. Pure knights that is. when multiclassed with an archer or mage class; knights become godly all of a sudden.
In Asian RPG's melee classes are severely "gimped" since they only meet the cannon fodder status :P But they get the best looks and cool armor; or "cool" skills that do next to nothing lol.
But I can see that in the not so near future (perhaps C6 or 7) Knights will get a small boost, one enough to properly survive in any enviroment and have a fighting chance. Perhaps adding that paralizing skill you mention we should have, or more resistances to magic.
Another user has stated that SWS can buff a tank and make him actually survive for a hell of a lot longer. If this is indeed true at high level PvP; then I can see why it isn't a concern for developers.
Another user has stated that SWS can buff a tank and make him actually survive for a hell of a lot longer. If this is indeed true at high level PvP; then I can see why it isn't a concern for developers.
And another user has stated that the idea that a melee class needs SWS, EE, SE, and Prophet buffs to survive a 1v1 with a nuker makes it -not- 1v1, and since those buffers are better off with nukers, most melee will never see them in PVP.
You may have played alot of RPG's, but you are, in a way, new to this one. I'm not. I've played since C1, and have plenty of experience sieging, mass PvPing, and 1v1ing. You want a "lesson on class imbalance"? Try sieging.
And again; let's suppose they "fix" melee and make it so they can stand 1on1 vs any mage user with self buffs, and the mage with all support he can get... then you'd need an equal number of mages for every melee, effectively reversing the problem, and making melee too powerful.
Because then everyone would reroll melee, and with mages and archers and buffers on ever shrinking numbers, then melee would be unstoppable. Daggers already have a ahrd time downing melee classes, specially tanks.
Maybe if somebody would be willing to conduct a testing in th ePTS, pitting armies of the same number of people, but with a distribution of classes with melee being the most numerous, we could assess if it is indeed unbalanced or not.
I still sustain that 1on1, melee should have it really hard to down a mage. Maybe 5-95% chances are a bit off, but the way I see balance, they would be 25-75% and that would be nice. With even levels and top gear, self buffed, 35-65% tops.
ONE ON ONE. Melee should have enough numbers to zerg a mage. No casting speed could allow a single mage to stop more than 5 melee at once, and the instant the mage flags he is prone to be stunned and ganged upon.
You once again misunderstand me. I dont want to be able to beat a nuker 1v1. Neither do I think that any melee DD should beat a ranged DD 1v1. I think that, barring bad luck, a nuker should kill a melee in a self buffed fight.
However, as it stands now, there is no melee class that even comes close. I cant reach a nuker that can slow, sleep, dance, then 2 shot me. Hell, I cant reach a nuker who runs from me. Some melee classes have more chance than I do, but its still a problem.
What you suggest about the PTS has already been suggested. The problem is obvious, and it does not need to be tested in an all out war. 1v1 a melee does not stand a chance against a nuker. Group v. Group melee does not stand a chance against nukers (due to superior crowd control, the landing rate of sleep and debuffs, and casting speed) and in mass pvp, the only way a good nuker gets taken out is by a nuker or an archer. There is no debate about this being a problem.
oh, and this:
No casting speed could allow a single mage to stop more than 5 melee at once, and the instant the mage flags he is prone to be stunned and ganged upon.
This is wrong as well. 1 nuker can decimate an entire party of melee classes. The only thing that stops a nuker when they are faced with melee classes is running out of MP. Even in the EXTREMELY uncommon case that a single melee can catch and hit a nuker (avoiding the "target is too far" bug) stuns break after critical hits, and sometimes on normal hits. Sometimes, a nuker doesnt even have to sleep. As you point out, a character needs to flag to be slept. However, if a nuker can cut through my cp and hp in a couple seconds spamming BSPS, does he even need to use sleep? The answer is no. And if a melee ever gets close enough to the nuker to flag, he will be slept before he can land a second hit. The cast speed is so fast there is no chance of interupting sleep.
You need to play some more, and stop arguing with theories based on other RPG's. There is a problem with this game as far as ranged v. melee goes.
/edited for a typo or two. Its late, leave me alone.
My mistake, it should read "No casting speed should allow a mage to stop MORE than 5 melee at once." I'm not theorizing, I'm giving my opinion. At least on my level range this is a non issue, it's heavily leant on the caster's side, but one non landed sleep and he's toast due to chain stun. Under 40 is more of a landed roots more than anything else.
This is off topic but I'll go anyway: AD&D, Lvl 1 mage, magic missile, burning hands = neither does enough dmg to kill a lvl 1 fighter whereas the lvl 1 fighter can kill the lvl 1 mage in 1 hit.
Lvl 1 mage, with con of 16 or more has max hp of 6
lvl 1 fighter, with con of 16, max hp 12, with con of 17, 13, with con of 18, 14
Lvl 1 Barbarian, max hp 16(hp is rolled with d12)
magic missile, lvl 1 = d4+1 dmg, max dmg 5.
long sword, d8 dmg, if there is a str bonus, the max dmg will be from 9-12 so clearly, a mage needs 2 or more spells to take down a fighter, while the fighter can drop the mage in 1 hit.
And if we continue on the subject, a single fighter could decimate armies alone, with AC of -12 no low lvl fighter would hit it, and with rings of fire resistance etc(magic resistance items, or in the case of Paladin, holy avenger with 50% magic resistance stacked with the rest) low lvl mages that armies hired would not do much either. Also, Lvl 20 Fighter vs a Lvl 20 mage, if the mage had no contingency spells, he would most likely die since with +5 Longsword and Grand Mastery the Fighter would almost always win the initiaitve and drop the mage before the mage had any time to cast.
So, if we take AD&D as an example, melees should be the BBQPWNOMGROFFELS class. However, this is not AD&D, nor Final Fantasy, nor Lord of The Rings nor anything else, THIS is Lineage2. It does not say anywhere that Lineage2 follows the rules of this or that other game or fantasy world and as long as there is nothing that proves that Lineage2 is infact based on D&D or something, they dont mean nothing.
Lineage2 is its own world. It follows its own rules and last time I checked, they didnt in any way say that "This game is based on game/Fantasy novel/Fantasy world XXX" so please stop using other games as a justification as to why the game is balanced or unbalanced.
If you want to prove the game is unbalanced/balanced, use examples from Lineage lore that would point into one direction or the other, since only the lore of Lineage, and the actual game matter in this dispute. All other games and the likes have 0 value when it comes to Lineage.
As such, by the lore, human classes should be inferior to all other classes since humans needed masses to win against other races. Elves needed humans to fight against orcs, and they also needed dwarves to supply their alliance with best weaponry and armors. So, by Lineage lore, shouldnt the orcs be the most dominant race in 1vs1 ;) ? I say that NCSoft should follow their own lore to its fullest and then we could see what the balance would be.
However, this is not AD&D, nor Final Fantasy, nor Lord of The Rings nor anything else, THIS is Lineage2. It does not say anywhere that Lineage2 follows the rules of this or that other game or fantasy world and as long as there is nothing that proves that Lineage2 is infact based on D&D or something, they dont mean nothing.
Lineage2 is its own world. It follows its own rules and last time I checked, they didnt in any way say that "This game is based on game/Fantasy novel/Fantasy world XXX" so please stop using other games as a justification as to why the game is balanced or unbalanced.
Actually I find his reasoning to be very pertinant to this discussion.
He is not saying that because another game is this way we must apply the same rules. What he is saying is that because a particular genre is "this way" and that L2 is part of this genre then we might be able to infer that that is the logic that L2 follows.
It also makes a lot of sense.
I have no problems accepting the fact that the developers are steeped in a tradition which they draw their design philosophy from.
His examples, which may be spot on or not, at least help us demystify why things are the way they are. It also adds far more depth then "melee are gimp... fix them".
The idea that he states that tanks are cannon fodder unless they are part of the story shows that at least there "could" be particular reasons why things are the way they are.
tanks are cannon fodder unless they are part of the story
And I find this idea to be perhaps the least pertinant to a discussion about Lineage 2. Tanks -are- part of the story simply because Player Characters can choose to be tanks. Nowhere in the mythology of Lineage 2 does it imply that this game is fundamentally about mystics, who are able to dominate other classes.
Its a problem, and it needs to be fixed. As I have stated, I dont play enough MMOs or "Asian RPG's" to know if the devs are "steeped in a tradition" where ranged must be significantly more powerful than melee, but even if they are, this is even more reason that they must take a second look at how they balance the classes.
Well if you want to follow Genre, typically mages are slow casting yet extremely powerful. In any story setting of this Genre, a mage can move mountains and decimate entire armies...from the battletops. But if anything remotely resembling a dd/tank gets hear him he folds.
The biggest problem in this game with mages is the speed. I don't mind mages hitting hard, in fact I think they should hit very hard, but not at the speed that they do. Casting speed in this game is ridiculous, and that, to me, is the crux of the problem.
Mehehe i have a story to tell :p I got trained 7 times in a row (all killed by me with sleep(cloud) +nukes) the other day.The guy clearly had no idea how to train ppl-thats why i lived.He was a TH in BW light and had EMI + an OEd (+5 tops) B grade dagger (which one i dont know).So i kinda get ****** and chased him off with 3 nukes (each doing 734 dmg) i have SoV and around 800 M.att (i use demon set and got +5 INT symbols).The reason for this build is -more M.atk less MP used per XP gained :) Problem is im not a rich guy (no "outside" funds to back me up) so i cant afford for now +4 WIT.The TH was prolly in BO full set maybe +3.My SoV is +3 w/acumen.Thx to the demon robes i have 400 cast speed (yes you read RIGHT) and with GMHP i got 520.
The guy popped some CP pots and came back getting his dagger out.Since i wont attack from 0 range he LETS me run at 900.Then im starting to nuke him for 734 dmg each-managed to get 5 nukes on him.HE wasnt flaged so no sleep,no slow or ANY other kind of spell (i also have 1! nuke which is weak compared to the over hit ones).So he comes to me after taking 5 nukes and you know what?The moment he flaged i was dead.Full cp+hp gone :pHe landed his 2 skills in 0.5 seconds for 1.7k dmg each.Why?Because his attacks have awesome power and mages have VERY low p def (i got 450).Now it seems to me that daggers drop mages easy (if specials land but thats what it is to be a dagger-game of chance)-now i hear that daggers have problems killing a tank.So i would say we are NOT the uber leet OVER powered classes you ppl make us.Im in my low 60s and btw here is a news for you-i CANT afford A grade.
The problems you got from nukers is with DC set+all symbols+A grade weapons.Now tell me how much time you need to play to reach that state?And isnt that the most powerefull PVP build ever?What about if you DONT have DC set?Well you got a cast speed of 400 thats what.
Mehehe i have a story to tell :p I got trained 7 times in a row (all killed by me with sleep(cloud) +nukes) the other day.The guy clearly had no idea how to train ppl-thats why i lived.He was a TH in BW light and had EMI + an OEd (+5 tops) B grade dagger (which one i dont know).So i kinda get ****** and chased him off with 3 nukes (each doing 734 dmg) i have SoV and around 800 M.att (i use demon set and got +5 INT symbols).The reason for this build is -more M.atk less MP used per XP gained :) Problem is im not a rich guy (no "outside" funds to back me up) so i cant afford for now +4 WIT.The TH was prolly in BO full set maybe +3.My SoV is +3 w/acumen.Thx to the demon robes i have 400 cast speed (yes you read RIGHT) and with GMHP i got 520.
The guy popped some CP pots and came back getting his dagger out.Since i wont attack from 0 range he LETS me run at 900.Then im starting to nuke him for 734 dmg each-managed to get 5 nukes on him.HE wasnt flaged so no sleep,no slow or ANY other kind of spell (i also have 1! nuke which is weak compared to the over hit ones).So he comes to me after taking 5 nukes and you know what?The moment he flaged i was dead.Full cp+hp gone :pHe landed his 2 skills in 0.5 seconds for 1.7k dmg each.Why?Because his attacks have awesome power and mages have VERY low p def (i got 450).Now it seems to me that daggers drop mages easy (if specials land but thats what it is to be a dagger-game of chance)-now i hear that daggers have problems killing a tank.So i would say we are NOT the uber leet OVER powered classes you ppl make us.Im in my low 60s and btw here is a news for you-i CANT afford A grade.
The problems you got from nukers is with DC set+all symbols+A grade weapons.Now tell me how much time you need to play to reach that state?And isnt that the most powerefull PVP build ever?What about if you DONT have DC set?Well you got a cast speed of 400 thats what.
A) people training usually are at least 10+ lvls over the area they train in
b)yes Im sorry to say that almost all nukers 61+ have DC set. And the ones who can't afford it go to the slightly worse but still uber tallum set. avadon at B is much better for PvP and is CHEAP.
c) thats really how it should be, get a few nukes in and be droped at melee range. But put on avadon, u said 5 nukes right soo +15% dps - a little from demon. calculate it out and u gain aprox 500 more dmg on him avadon gives u +5% p def so he only deals u about 1.6K.
Ok fairly reasonable so far... now add wit tats.. +27% cast speed = +27% pure DPS= 5000 dmg.. that will drop any non-tank pre 60.
Nukers should hit hard. Its the cast speed thats maked em all whacked
tanks are cannon fodder unless they are part of the story
And I find this idea to be perhaps the least pertinant to a discussion about Lineage 2. Tanks -are- part of the story simply because Player Characters can choose to be tanks.
No... or yes.. but no...
The point is not whether or not the player is part of the story but that in an actual "story" the warrior is the least powerful unless he is the protagonist. "The" protagonist.
In L2 there is not one protagonist.
Essentially.. mages are always supposed to be "more powerful" but they usually aren't able to use their power "all the time". However... we can point to literature til the "cows come home" the point that anyone can make is "L2 is its own world".
Since that is the case we do need to understand the genre that it comes from since nothing springs forth from a vacuum.
And just because we want something to be changed because "we" find it unfair or unbalanced does not mean that in the context of the L2 "source material" or material that influences L2 that we will be "right".
It is also possible that the majority of Koreans just don't play mage characters (I have no idea if this is true but I throw it out there) because of variety of cultural reasons. Because of this they don't have the same issues that we have.
I don't know. I would love it if someone who actually plays/played the Korean version of this game would comment on this. I think Hellderith is one and Center used to play.
Because then we will have a better idea as to what is really going on.
If that is the case... that Koreans don't play mages but prefer other characters for a variety of reasons then you have your answer right there. It is not possible to say a game is "not balanced" when its original incarnation "is" balanced for the primary playerbase.
And as i said Tallum or ANY A grade set is above me right now.Those helms are ugly :(Avadon (i can buy it at once for 11m-prolly less if i spend some time) lowers my overall M.Att.Demon gives +4 INT-dont forget that.Without demon set i got awesome downtime-so you say i should have both then?And all symbols?So i just got to buy the DC+nightmare?(nightmare for hunting :P).Sry but i dont play here from 2 years AND i dont ebay.
I think most of you are wrong.... I have a A grade necro and a B grade tyrant. My Tyrant with mental agis wins most battles with mages easy. As far as melee loseing to an archer while hitting him lol you are either A.) not playing class right B.) Way out geared C.) Under lvl D.) hmm.. Stupid?
all is really needed is a "ResistMagic" and "Reflect Magic" skill for non-mystics only. This skill would be like Ultimate Defence and Ultimate Evasion...only lasts 15 seconds and has 15min recharge...but that would solve all the problems with the non-balance issues. And not like this skill would work for every hit...just the same stats as the other skills, just applied to magic attacks ... would be great for PvP and PvE...there are lots of magic mobs out there that do lots of damage espically if you're not in the higest jewles for your grade and they are not +3 or higher
If that is the case... that Koreans don't play mages but prefer other characters for a variety of reasons then you have your answer right there. It is not possible to say a game is "not balanced" when its original incarnation "is" balanced for the primary playerbase.
It is possible to argue that its not balanced but they don't care. The game isn't balanced for PVP and it really wouldn't be an issue if this wasn't a PVP game. It is being billed as the premiere PVP game however so it makes a huge difference. If there are intangibles for playing a certain class they need to post them on the website next to the class description to prevent any confusion.
IE. Melee Fighter (Developer's Note: You're going to be weaker then other classes at equal level. You will kill slower and spend more money on shots but you are a true masochist and thus can go brag on the forums.)
This sort of 'balance' is external to the system and doesn't reflect a balanced system. It just means they have outside countermeasures to influence perception.
This wouldn't be an issue if the main selling point for the game was PVE (which still isn't balanced but doesn't directly penalize players for poor class choice). The game is billed as PVP so should be balanced around the PVP.
Mehehe i have a story to tell I got trained 7 times in a row (all killed by me with sleep(cloud) +nukes) the other day.The guy clearly had no idea how to train ppl-thats why i lived.He was a TH in BW light and had EMI + an OEd (+5 tops) B grade dagger (which one i dont know).So i kinda get ****** and chased him off with 3 nukes (each doing 734 dmg) i have SoV and around 800 M.att (i use demon set and got +5 INT symbols).The reason for this build is -more M.atk less MP used per XP gained Problem is im not a rich guy (no "outside" funds to back me up) so i cant afford for now +4 WIT.The TH was prolly in BO full set maybe +3.My SoV is +3 w/acumen.Thx to the demon robes i have 400 cast speed (yes you read RIGHT) and with GMHP i got 520.
The guy popped some CP pots and came back getting his dagger out.Since i wont attack from 0 range he LETS me run at 900.Then im starting to nuke him for 734 dmg each-managed to get 5 nukes on him.HE wasnt flaged so no sleep,no slow or ANY other kind of spell (i also have 1! nuke which is weak compared to the over hit ones).So he comes to me after taking 5 nukes and you know what?The moment he flaged i was dead.Full cp+hp gone He landed his 2 skills in 0.5 seconds for 1.7k dmg each.Why?Because his attacks have awesome power and mages have VERY low p def (i got 450).Now it seems to me that daggers drop mages easy (if specials land but thats what it is to be a dagger-game of chance)-now i hear that daggers have problems killing a tank.So i would say we are NOT the uber leet OVER powered classes you ppl make us.Im in my low 60s and btw here is a news for you-i CANT afford A grade.
The problems you got from nukers is with DC set+all symbols+A grade weapons.Now tell me how much time you need to play to reach that state?And isnt that the most powerefull PVP build ever?What about if you DONT have DC set?Well you got a cast speed of 400 thats what.
So just because that you get killed by a TH who has b-grade dagger and is hitting you who are in C-grade, that makes all melee more powerful than all nukers??
I know how you feel when it comes to not being able to equip yourself in the gear you want.
And regarding TH's I would say that they are probably the only class that can down a nuker in less than 4 hits. When everyone was calling out to gimp daggers NCsoft made a huge misstake, they didn't attack the class that was the problems but attacked the concept daggers. That way the AW and PW who already was pretty balanced got gimped into oblivion, while TH's only got a bit more balanced.
But how come that everytime 1 nuker gets beaten by a melee, there is a big uproar and melee's are just as they should be. While melee's fall down in 100rds and that is just alright??
I think i can say with pretty good certainty that for every nuker that goes down to a melee, there are about 20-30 melee that goes down to nukers
If that is the case... that Koreans don't play mages but prefer other characters for a variety of reasons then you have your answer right there. It is not possible to say a game is "not balanced" when its original incarnation "is" balanced for the primary playerbase.
It is possible to argue that its not balanced but they don't care. The game isn't balanced for PVP and it really wouldn't be an issue if this wasn't a PVP game. It is being billed as the premiere PVP game however so it makes a huge difference. If there are intangibles for playing a certain class they need to post them on the website next to the class description to prevent any confusion.
IE. Melee Fighter (Developer's Note: You're going to be weaker then other classes at equal level. You will kill slower and spend more money on shots but you are a true masochist and thus can go brag on the forums.)
This sort of 'balance' is external to the system and doesn't reflect a balanced system. It just means they have outside countermeasures to influence perception.
This wouldn't be an issue if the main selling point for the game was PVE (which still isn't balanced but doesn't directly penalize players for poor class choice). The game is billed as PVP so should be balanced around the PVP.
Well, that's where I agree with you. The problem there is that they don't really have "truth" in marketing... OR to play devil's advocate, maybe this really is how they view a pvp game.
But I can't really say. It is either a shortcoming on NC's part or it is our shortcoming because we don't understand where they are coming from. I know, I know.. someone can say "they are people... all people are the same".
Well.. apparently we aren't becuase "we" do things that they just don't do (like luring siege mobs into cities) and they do things that seem odd for us.. such as the EE being one of the most popular characters. That in and of itself is the real key.
I wonder (since I hear that the EE [from maline] is the chosen "girlfriend" class) what the main PvP class is in Korea?
And part of the problem which I really care about is that we really don't get much information from NC regarding "what they are thinking".
This is what really really ****** me off.
Where other games seem to have more of a hands on approach from the designers, this game seems to be a mystery until we suddenly see something appear in-game.
That is what really ****** me off. In other games, if the player base has an issue, you will actually see them being addressed by the gm's and designers.. not so much changed as I don't feel that it is the game company's responsibility to change the game from their vision, but I would like to know why it is designed the way it is. Becuase to us it does seem like it is askew.
[quoteI think i can say with pretty good certainty that for every nuker that goes down to a melee, there are about 20-30 melee that goes down to nukers
Seems like i need to explain something.The TH didnt drop me with 4 strikes-he did so with 2.Each for 1.7k dmg.Now i got 1k CP AND 1.8k HP.An avadon set WONT do anything against this.Im not asking for nerfs or smtn-i totally accept getting beaten by fast moving low hp (compared to tanks) players.What i dont agree is that all you ppl think that normal mages got every A grade set in game+all symbols+A grade weapons when they first start.All those players are prolly rerolls.As i said im using Demon to HUNT.You cant always be in ++++++cast speed-makes a huge downtime-and guess what?Not every magehas an SE/EE with him for recharge.You think standing on ground for 15 minutes is "FUN" or "NICE"?I have to find other things to do while waiting lol!I dont mind that im under the grade i have reached.I still cant believe there are ppl that think when you reach 61 you MUST be in TOP A grade +++ enchanted everything :pEvery ++cast speed means --M.atk and ++MP cost AND ++downtime.Oh and i got Demon set (all +3) +comp boots (+3) and great helmet (+3) that makes hmm 250 base p def?Avado base p def (with +5%) is....284 and a half.So 36 p def will get 500 dmg off me so i can get a sleep to cast?(Demon lowers HP with 270 so i need to get only 500 dmg less to survive-he can hit me before i can sleep him after all)
Well, that's where I agree with you. The problem there is that they don't really have "truth" in marketing... OR to play devil's advocate, maybe this really is how they view a pvp game.
But I can't really say. It is either a shortcoming on NC's part or it is our shortcoming because we don't understand where they are coming from. I know, I know.. someone can say "they are people... all people are the same".
Well.. apparently we aren't becuase "we" do things that they just don't do (like luring siege mobs into cities) and they do things that seem odd for us.. such as the EE being one of the most popular characters. That in and of itself is the real key.
I wonder (since I hear that the EE [from maline] is the chosen "girlfriend" class) what the main PvP class is in Korea?
And part of the problem which I really care about is that we really don't get much information from NC regarding "what they are thinking".
This is what really really ****** me off.
Where other games seem to have more of a hands on approach from the designers, this game seems to be a mystery until we suddenly see something appear in-game.
That is what really ****** me off. In other games, if the player base has an issue, you will actually see them being addressed by the gm's and designers.. not so much changed as I don't feel that it is the game company's responsibility to change the game from their vision, but I would like to know why it is designed the way it is. Becuase to us it does seem like it is askew.
The cultural differences factor in but you'll notice that the conclusion seems kinda racist.
I prefer to think that the NCSoft developers drew up PVE classes, added a bunch of neat bonuses designed around certain class types and then slapped on the PVP element by letting people attack one another.
The feel of the game suggests that this theory is probably the most sound. The classes are slightly balanced around their PVE mechanic or their group usefulness in PVE. They've added in far too many toys that destroys the balanced when used in their most efficient manner.
Excuse #1: Melees are intended to be weaker and should overwhelm by numbers.
Response #1: Then melees should have a skill that allows them to clone themselves so that they count as a party mob (much like the Plain Lizards south of Oren or the Orc Troops by IT). There is no reason to play a class that counts as 1/3 of another class when its not required. The reason people use pawns in Chess is because they aren't allowed to have all queens. If players were allowed to have all queens then there is no reason to have a pawn on the field.
Excuse #2: Lore suggests Mages should BBQ (in the words of Tolkein) all those other newb classes.
Response #2: Its a game and should be judged by game standards and not held to literary measures. Games that try to hold to a source are not fun because literature and games have to live up to different standards of fairness and what's fun. I don't pull out a history book to argue that the queen shouldn't be able to move faster then a knight on the chess board.
Excuse #3: This one time... at Abandoned Camp.... this melee in doom heavy totally killed my level 24 elven wizard... so its fair.
Response #3: Balance is still that equal level characters in equal gear have a roughly equal chance against one another. Odd examples of people 10 levels higher then you and in a completely different grade of gear don't help the discussion.
The debate is still pointless.
Option A: Make a Mage/Archer character and join the club.
Option B: Get used to being any other class and being used as cannon fodder and pvp count padding.
Option C: Make an economic statement and cancel your account until the developers get serious about designing a PVP game that plays as good as it looks.
Seems like i need to explain something.The TH didnt drop me with 4 strikes-he did so with 2.Each for 1.7k dmg.Now i got 1k CP AND 1.8k HP.An avadon set WONT do anything against this.Im not asking for nerfs or smtn-i totally accept getting beaten by fast moving low hp (compared to tanks) players.What i dont agree is that all you ppl think that normal mages got every A grade set in game+all symbols+A grade weapons when they first start.All those players are prolly rerolls.As i said im using Demon to HUNT.You cant always be in ++++++cast speed-makes a huge downtime-and guess what?Not every magehas an SE/EE with him for recharge.You think standing on ground for 15 minutes is "FUN" or "NICE"?I have to find other things to do while waiting lol!I dont mind that im under the grade i have reached.I still cant believe there are ppl that think when you reach 61 you MUST be in TOP A grade +++ enchanted everything :pEvery ++cast speed means --M.atk and ++MP cost AND ++downtime.Oh and i got Demon set (all +3) +comp boots (+3) and great helmet (+3) that makes hmm 250 base p def?Avado base p def (with +5%) is....284 and a half.So 36 p def will get 500 dmg off me so i can get a sleep to cast?(Demon lowers HP with 270 so i need to get only 500 dmg less to survive-he can hit me before i can sleep him after all)
As stated by someone who already replied to you, the dagger who dropped you was, most likely, a significantly higher level. Since Fake Death doesnt work 100%, most people who train with it do -not- do so in the same area they would hunt. The reason for this is obvious. If the TH failed his FD, he would be dead, possibly dropping gear etc. I contend that any dagger that could take 5 nukes from a character of your level (though I do not know your class) is either extremely lucky, chugging cp pots and quick heal pots by the dozen, or WAY over your level. Or some combo of the three.
Well this all happend at the Drakes+Succubus turens (needed CBP-manor) which are around lvl 57.The guy ive seen before that killing mobs there.So either he doesnt know where to hunt or they give him good XP.Also i stated that guy is total failure for a trainer-the first train was 1!(with words-one!) drake-and he was using GHP to not die.He made only 1 time 10+ mobs train and he was popping pots like crazy-one more thing-the dagger LET ME get to 900 range-otherwise i was gonna be dead BEFORE i get 1! nuke off!Also pots are useable by ALL classes-BUT they are best when used by high HP classes (like tanks) the guy killed me UNDER 0.5sec i DIDNT have time to sleep/use pot/aura flare or anything like that.What im saying is that low P.def gives archers/daggers/other classes with high power skills to kill mages easy.Im a Sorc-1 more WIT than a SH but 3! less INT.Oh and btw i cant use cancel/sleep/slow to protect myself from archers/daggers-kinda lame eh?
Seems like i need to explain something.The TH didnt drop me with 4 strikes-he did so with 2.Each for 1.7k dmg.Now i got 1k CP AND 1.8k HP.An avadon set WONT do anything against this.Im not asking for nerfs or smtn-i totally accept getting beaten by fast moving low hp (compared to tanks) players.What i dont agree is that all you ppl think that normal mages got every A grade set in game+all symbols+A grade weapons when they first start.All those players are prolly rerolls.As i said im using Demon to HUNT.You cant always be in ++++++cast speed-makes a huge downtime-and guess what?Not every magehas an SE/EE with him for recharge.You think standing on ground for 15 minutes is "FUN" or "NICE"?I have to find other things to do while waiting lol!I dont mind that im under the grade i have reached.I still cant believe there are ppl that think when you reach 61 you MUST be in TOP A grade +++ enchanted everything :pEvery ++cast speed means --M.atk and ++MP cost AND ++downtime.Oh and i got Demon set (all +3) +comp boots (+3) and great helmet (+3) that makes hmm 250 base p def?Avado base p def (with +5%) is....284 and a half.So 36 p def will get 500 dmg off me so i can get a sleep to cast?(Demon lowers HP with 270 so i need to get only 500 dmg less to survive-he can hit me before i can sleep him after all)
What we are talking of here IS majority normal mages, atleast in my case. I have been dropped by all kinds of mages in totally different gears aswell. all from 10 lvls higher to 1-15 lvls lower, some in C-grade and some in a-grade. The thing is that when I have meet these I've practicly been left with 3 choices: run away(not always possible), fight back and give him a PvP point or let him go red on me. because by the time i get a chance to hit back he already has taken away my CP and a good part of my HP.
And why is it that you nukers think that you are the only ones with alot of down time?? Melee's need rest to you know.
But just to get some facts straight here, a nuker hunts for 10 min, kills about 20-50 mobs, same lvl or slightly higher and then rest for 5-15 min.
A melee hunts for 20 min and kills about the same amount of mobs of same lvl or lower and then needs to rest for about 5-10 min.
Am I totally off here?? I don't think so, you know melee's that solo require MP aswell, all tho we have less MP to regen, we also have our "massive" HP to recover aswell.
Both examples are with full buffs. And don't tell me that they don't add up, I have tried playing a nuker on the PTS, so I have some notion of what they can do.
I played a SpS lvl 60 on the PTS and I could with not much difficulty kill around 30-50 mobs white's and yellows, unbuffed.
On my tyrant(lvl65) I can hunt for 20 min straight killing about 20-30 mobs that are light blue and green, unbuffed, and then sit down for about 5-10 min regening MP and HP.
So why are you nukers complaining that you need to rest up when melee's suffers the same problem??
And then there is the argument that nukers cost more to lvl, so I'm gonna pick that one apart aswell, while I'm still at it.
Nukers 2 shot mobs, most of the time. If using B-grade weapon that is 2 b-bsps/mob. 1 b-bsps cost around 300a.
That makes a cost of about 600a/mob, the mob drops around 1k a = a profit of 400a
Using b-grade melee weapon (on tyrant), I have to hit approximatly 15-20 times on the same mob with auto-ss on. 1 SS cost about 60a = cost of 1020a if i hit him 17 times, mob drops 1k adena = 20a loss unless It happens that I need to pop a heal pot on the way increasing the cost more.
So don't come here and complain about things that melee's need to do also.
You have the choice!You got HP pots no?Do i have a choice to use an MP pot?And what if smtn happens an i need to use sleep/slow/aura flare?My mp is GONE.The diff here is that it is NOT needed for a melee to have MP for hunting (i know skills use MP).BTW i prefer HUNTING for 20 min and resting for 5 than to hunt for 5 and rest for 20!Dont you agree?Atleast you DO smtn!No wonder they made archers attacks use MP.BTW i have seen orc fighter (dunno what class exactly) SOLO in Apo for half hour without a break killing like crazy.Thats like 4xHP mobs entire room clean.He was lvl 59 then so i he didnt have a grade yet.And when there are no buffers around i doubt he had buffs (L2 day scrolls are a posibility).Btw now that GHP are craftable its much more easy to get one (i dont know how much they cost on your server-ive seen for 1.5k) -you just need to fish.I would REALLY like a 20k adena pot that restore 1k mana (20 nukes=10 mobs so 12k adena-you are gonna lose ALOT of adena if you SPAM them).
Oh and have you ever try to hunt with a mage WITHOUT shots?Plz do so and tell me how it went (asuming you dont have +16 weapon and 10+lvls diff between mobs and you).
You have the choice!You got HP pots no?Do i have a choice to use an MP pot?And what if smtn happens an i need to use sleep/slow/aura flare?My mp is GONE.The diff here is that it is NOT needed for a melee to have MP for hunting (i know skills use MP).BTW i prefer HUNTING for 20 min and resting for 5 than to hunt for 5 and rest for 20!Dont you agree?Atleast you DO smtn!No wonder they made archers attacks use MP.BTW i have seen orc fighter (dunno what class exactly) SOLO in Apo for half hour without a break killing like crazy.Thats like 4xHP mobs entire room clean.He was lvl 59 then so i he didnt have a grade yet.And when there are no buffers around i doubt he had buffs (L2 day scrolls are a posibility).Btw now that GHP are craftable its much more easy to get one (i dont know how much they cost on your server-ive seen for 1.5k) -you just need to fish.I would REALLY like a 20k adena pot that restore 1k mana (20 nukes=10 mobs so 12k adena-you are gonna lose ALOT of adena if you SPAM them).
You're just making yourself look like an idiot by posting here.
As for your example: You compared a Dagger user with this gear setup:
The guy clearly had no idea how to train ppl-thats why i lived.He was a TH in BW light and had EMI + an OEd (+5 tops) B grade dagger.
To a mage wearing demon (which significantly lowers your HP) and is not a very good mage set for PVP (since its a nuker set). Your opponent was lvl 52+ and I don't remember your level off hand but you're wearing level 40-52 gear so you're obviously very undergeared. The dagger user coudl very well have had overenchanted Black Ore Jewels and you were still doing 700 damage per hit. You should have lost this fight and the fact that if you were a better player you might have one only works in the favor of the people showing the inbalance.
The mage in your example is undergeared and using the wrong gear for PVP. I don't support Melees coming in here and whining about how they lost to a guy in C gear while using their wood set and its about as valid as your argument.
Mages don't need a boost and giving them mana potions would eliminate the one weakness that some of them have.
You have the choice!You got HP pots no?Do i have a choice to use an MP pot?And what if smtn happens an i need to use sleep/slow/aura flare?My mp is GONE.The diff here is that it is NOT needed for a melee to have MP for hunting (i know skills use MP).BTW i prefer HUNTING for 20 min and resting for 5 than to hunt for 5 and rest for 20!Dont you agree?Atleast you DO smtn!No wonder they made archers attacks use MP.BTW i have seen orc fighter (dunno what class exactly) SOLO in Apo for half hour without a break killing like crazy.Thats like 4xHP mobs entire room clean.He was lvl 59 then so i he didnt have a grade yet.And when there are no buffers around i doubt he had buffs (L2 day scrolls are a posibility).Btw now that GHP are craftable its much more easy to get one (i dont know how much they cost on your server-ive seen for 1.5k) -you just need to fish.I would REALLY like a 20k adena pot that restore 1k mana (20 nukes=10 mobs so 12k adena-you are gonna lose ALOT of adena if you SPAM them).
And what if i get 2 mobs on me??? then i need to rest to since then my HP is gone.
He probably was a Destoyer then, quite easy to tell them apart, destroyers have a huge 2 hand sword most of the time and tyrants have fist weapons. I actually tried soloing down there, cost about 10 times it did on the outside and about the same XP in the long run.
And if you prefer to hunt for 20 resting for 10 then be my guest and reroll to melee. Give it 2 months and you will be right here again complaining with the rest of us.
And yes we got HP potions but using them would drain my wallet faster then anything. You yourself complained about not having money, but your telling me to spend more?? what on earth makes you think I have more money then you, just because I'm a melee??
But my point in the other post that even if I hunt for 20 min and you only for 10, you still kill more mobs then me and doing it cheaper.
They need to re-implement the damage cap that was originally in c3. Its ok for a nuker to hit a mob with 30k hp for 1k, but to hit a character with a total of 7k cp+hp is dumb. It shows that this game really is a pve mmorpg with pvp just thrown in.
The cultural differences factor in but you'll notice that the conclusion seems kinda racist.
Not at all.. there is absolutely nothing wrong with noticing differences in culture. After all. isn't that what people are constantly shouting... revel in the differences? Where it would be wrong is saying that it makes them "less" of a people, robs them of their dignity or belittles them in any way.
I have absolutely no problem whatosever with the idea or proposition that the korean playerbase might have different preferences. Quite frankly, I have no problem with any human being having different preferences. But there are cultural differences. They exist. Just as there are regional differences. IN the end, we has human beings want the same things... we might just go about attaining them in different ways.
I do not believe in being "politcially correct". I believe that that is a slippery slope. I beleive in the idea that all people have a voice and that it is more than welcome to have a different voice provided that it doesn't do anything negative (as I've listed above)
I prefer to think that the NCSoft developers drew up PVE classes, added a bunch of neat bonuses designed around certain class types and then slapped on the PVP element by letting people attack one another.
It's funny you should say that because I was wondering the exact same thing after I made my post.
Excuse #2: Lore suggests Mages should BBQ (in the words of Tolkein) all those other newb classes.
This is true as I've seen BBQ in several of his books.
Response #2: Its a game and should be judged by game standards and not held to literary measures. Games that try to hold to a source are not fun because literature and games have to live up to different standards of fairness and what's fun. I don't pull out a history book to argue that the queen shouldn't be able to move faster then a knight on the chess board.
That comes down to game design. There is no argument there because, though I don't think the NC designers are stupid in anyway I don't think they are very wise.
The debate is still pointless.
Option A: Make a Mage/Archer character and join the club.
Option B: Get used to being any other class and being used as cannon fodder and pvp count padding.
Option C: Make an economic statement and cancel your account until the developers get serious about designing a PVP game that plays as good as it looks.
Well... there is agreement here as well.
If people really don't like it they can always leave. No shame in that. I personally will be subbing a melee and I know I'll have a blast with it regardless of being killed numerous times. However... my reasons for playing seem to be wholely my own.
And ****!!! It does look good doesn't it? I will say for the record that no other online game looks as good as L2. Period.
What if something happens and the melee needs his MP, or his HP for the matter. WE dont have crowd control skills, if we're in bad shape, we most likely will die if we start getting dmg. You atleast have the option of doing something else than bsoe or dying.
That orc fighter(using fists or a twohanded sword? if you cant tell them apart...)most likely had buffs from when he entered, or used scrolls, or had Clanhall buffs, OR used haste pot and heal pots. Btw, how deep in apo was he? In the medusa room? Or where? The first rooms are like a walk in the park, no need for buffs there, just haste potion and some healing potions from time to time. Also, the mobs in those first rooms would be blue/green to him.
"You just need to fish" If you fish, you dont gain exp, you dont gain money. Then again, you also need to get the recipe for the potion, and your fishing expertise must be low enough to yield you those non shiny fishing items that you need. So, even if you fish, you lost money and exp so the price of those potions would form up to be about the same they're now from the Priest of Dawn.
Have you tried exping without shots as a melee? Unless you _zerg_ the mobs with big parties, or hunt mobs that are not in your lvl range, it will be really slow.
Btw, going back to your encounter with the TH... He had the advantage in gear, he most likely had the advantage in lvls and he also had the advantage in fighting a nuker that was a pve build. He was also lucky, since dagger specials aint 100% landrate like your nukes that never miss. He also most likely drank a few potions, since if you hit him 5 times, and each nuke doing 700+dmg you did some hefty dmg there.
I got valhalla (last time i checked its a B grade weapon 52-61) and i use because it has acumen SA.I can wear only 1 set-sry to saty this-im not rich enough to buy 1 for pvp and 1 for PvE.Also im not whining (stated it early on) that this guy killed me.Ive also show you that NO MATTER if i got avadon or demon i was STILL going to die.Heck i could just buy a Dev set-its gonna be the same for that guy (700 dmg more! how much P.def i need to counter this?).Not to mention the castiging interruption and insane crit+att speed a dagger has.I still dont see how -4 INT and +15% cast speed will make me win.Also i DONT think that guy is higher at me at all.If he delevel that char-then maybe.The dagger was just slightly shining so i think either +4 or +5.Dont speak for undergearing when you play a melee.I have entire dmg setup-****it 5 INT is the diff between a SpS and an SH!Im supposed to do big dmg.Also i wa in that guy mercy.He LET me get in 900 range as i said so.He could just killed me right there!
I also think that all those ppl whining about how powerfull mages are just idiots-but did i post it somewhere?
The diff between a Devotion set (+15% cast speed) and Avadon (+5% P def and +15% cast speed) is just P.def-and ive told you-avadon wouldnt have helped me in the slightest!
Ive used that example as a mage that doesnt know if hes gonna pvp-not every friggin mage has ++++ cast speed setup so he could PvP all day-all you ppl whine because youve seen the top and most powerfull setups ingame with all those nice buffs.Well guess what?Few mages got that!
The guy was with a 2h sword.I cant quite remember beggining or deeper-all i can say is my MP is long gone before i can kill 3-4 mobs there.Also i MUST kill the mob before it reaches me-this means i need to sleep/slow that mob down-->more MP for 0 dmg-nice eh?Also everyone needs breaks from time to time-i have a lvl 13 fish skill and i wont upgrade it (good thing i got AoE spells-those fluids drop well from Nightmare groups just outside Giran) using shots+D grade rod i NEVER lose a fish.BTM? 22 mana for 120 HP-i need 60 per nuke.Thats 360 HP and 3 casts (need to recharge the skill) to get 1! nuke off (that wont even kill 1 mob).Slow killing without shots?Im gonna get beaten up if i dont use them.4 nukes to kill a mob 2 lvls under me-after the second the mob is hitting me-so i either sleep go away and nuke (5 spells) or i pray stay there an try to get 2 spells off.Also magic attacks have att failed.50% dmg isnt good (60 MP more wasted+315 adena).And about that TH-im NOT sayind i should kill him.Ive come here and read about how you ppl cant catch mages,doing LOW dmg to them and wanting our P.def passives to be taken-and pointed out that there are chars that can do all those things already!
I got valhalla (last time i checked its a B grade weapon 52-61) and i use because it has acumen SA.I can wear only 1 set-sry to saty this-im not rich enough to buy 1 for pvp and 1 for PvE.Also im not whining (stated it early on) that this guy killed me.Ive also show you that NO MATTER if i got avadon or demon i was STILL going to die.Heck i could just buy a Dev set-its gonna be the same for that guy (700 dmg more! how much P.def i need to counter this?).Not to mention the castiging interruption and insane crit+att speed a dagger has.I still dont see how -4 INT and +15% cast speed will make me win.Also i DONT think that guy is higher at me at all.If he delevel that char-then maybe.The dagger was just slightly shining so i think either +4 or +5.Dont speak for undergearing when you play a melee.I have entire dmg setup-****it 5 INT is the diff between a SpS and an SH!Im supposed to do big dmg.Also i wa in that guy mercy.He LET me get in 900 range as i said so.He could just killed me right there!
I also think that all those ppl whining about how powerfull mages are just idiots-but did i post it somewhere?
The diff between a Devotion set (+15% cast speed) and Avadon (+5% P def and +15% cast speed) is just P.def-and ive told you-avadon wouldnt have helped me in the slightest!
Ive used that example as a mage that doesnt know if hes gonna pvp-not every friggin mage has ++++ cast speed setup so he could PvP all day-all you ppl whine because youve seen the top and most powerfull setups ingame with all those nice buffs.Well guess what?Few mages got that!
Casting Speed bonuses on sets trump increased m.attk.
Demon lowers your HP in addition to having a much lower p.def then avadon.
You would kill faster with the increases in cast speed and need to rely on sleep/slow less.
It still boils down to the fact you're hobbling your class and then complaining that its balanced because you choose to not play your class effectively. That's not a balance issue, anyone can play a class inefficiently and lose.. we're trying to compare two players efficiently and intelligently playing their classes.
Lol mate PLZ dont tell me how to play my class.I can 2 shot mobs my lvl IF i wear this set.(im with valhalla on 60+)You look this from a melee pont of view-you might need tons of hits but when i 2-shot its not such a big factor.Also while casting im standing still(its the same as sitting MP wise) so i dont lose anything from lower cast speed at PvE.Also im hunting solo-the best thing i must do is get more XP per nuke.I can 2 shot Fallen orc mages and Sharp talon tigers-mages give 6.8k -tigers 6.4k.Which should i hunt eh?Problem is that WITH avadon i must 3 shoots them.This adds +50% Mana cost for the same XP-no thanks.As i pointed my HP doesnt matter in PvE-they just dont reach me (thats 1xHP mobs im talking about-open field-more XP-less chance to get an add and die).Also im a Sorcerer.Prominence (my only nuke) at lvl 62 has 89 power-the same lvl SH has a nuke with 111 power.And as we all KNOW power is MUCH more important than M.atk right?Those over hit nukes got 25% more power than mine.And they give more XP per kill too.And since my skills cost more SP than theirs...you get the picture.Much lower P.def?Ive put once a full avadon+3.With self buffs (i got shield 1) i had 540 p.def.Great no?Im curently getting a +4WIT symbol (as i stated i didnt have money to buy everything i need) but i wont change my set till either im 66+ (more power to spells and M.atk is more ineffective the higher it goes) or i can get my hands on Nightmare/DC.Giving ~11m for avadon is a waste of money right now because i dont pvp 24/7 but i do grind a few hours every day.Attack speed is much more important for fighters since you are getting hit while hunting so you need to kill fast.I on the other hand just need a strong enough attack to 2-shot mobs my lvl (and without Demon that wont be the case).
I dont rely on sleep/slow skills when fighting with 1xHP mobs AT ALL.If you have 1k cast speed you might solo 2xHP mobs with a nuker-but it needs so much money that i dont see it happening anytime soon.Its not that i dont WANT the +4 WIT-i just CANT buy it lol!But guess what up till now ive managed to craft my self everything i NEED to hunt.Avadon for PvP would be just a bonus.
Lol mate PLZ dont tell me how to play my class.I can 2 shot mobs my lvl IF i wear this set.(im with valhalla on 60+)You look this from a melee pont of view-you might need tons of hits but when i 2-shot its not such a big factor.Also while casting im standing still(its the same as sitting MP wise) so i dont lose anything from lower cast speed at PvE.Also im hunting solo-the best thing i must do is get more XP per nuke.I can 2 shot Fallen orc mages and Sharp talon tigers-mages give 6.8k -tigers 6.4k.Which should i hunt eh?Problem is that WITH avadon i must 3 shoots them.This adds +50% Mana cost for the same XP-no thanks.As i pointed my HP doesnt matter in PvE-they just dont reach me (thats 1xHP mobs im talking about-open field-more XP-less chance to get an add and die).Also im a Sorcerer.Prominence (my only nuke) at lvl 62 has 89 power-the same lvl SH has a nuke with 111 power.And as we all KNOW power is MUCH more important than M.atk right?Those over hit nukes got 25% more power than mine.And they give more XP per kill too.And since my skills cost more SP than theirs...you get the picture.Much lower P.def?Ive put once a full avadon+3.With self buffs (i got shield 1) i had 540 p.def.Great no?Im curently getting a +4WIT symbol (as i stated i didnt have money to buy everything i need) but i wont change my set till either im 66+ (more power to spells and M.atk is more ineffective the higher it goes) or i can get my hands on Nightmare/DC.Giving ~11m for avadon is a waste of money right now because i dont pvp 24/7 but i do grind a few hours every day.Attack speed is much more important for fighters since you are getting hit while hunting so you need to kill fast.I on the other hand just need a strong enough attack to 2-shot mobs my lvl (and without Demon that wont be the case).
I dont rely on sleep/slow skills when fighting with 1xHP mobs AT ALL.If you have 1k cast speed you might solo 2xHP mobs with a nuker-but it needs so much money that i dont see it happening anytime soon.Its not that i dont WANT the +4 WIT-i just CANT buy it lol!But guess what up till now ive managed to craft my self everything i NEED to hunt.Avadon for PvP would be just a bonus.
I don't even play a melee so I don't look at it from the melee point of view.
And mate, you still aren't playing your class as efficiently and you've stated a few big errors in your argument already.
You med faster sitting then you do while standing. At least that's how it functions for warcriyers but I don't know maybe human mages don't function the same way. You do lose something in lower cast speed because its then easier for mobs to reach you and hit you. Mobs also regenerate HP constantly so a slower cast speed means you're giving the mob more time to regenerate.
Your 540 p.def is higher then the m.def of a Gladiator in majestic jewels at lvl 72.
You've geared yourself for PVE which reduces your HP and has a lower then expected p.def for your level. You lose a fight to someone that is obviously overgeared for their level and has access to plenty of gear. The dagger won due to luck and reliance on much better gear and the fact that the mage was not geared for PVP.
You'd level faster with a fast casting set btw. Your adena per mob profit would be slightly less but you'd be killing more mobs faster so you'd end up making it up due to the increase in mobs killed and material drops. MP is gone quicker and then you sit sooner and get to the next round of mana sooner.
First, learn how to play the class you do play.
Then learn how to play the other classes.
Then you might be able to come back and contribute to the conversation.
You've taken this so off topic its not even funny and turned this into 'lets discuss how one hopeless mage can try to make his character worthless to balance out the system'.
I nice to see you stating in one post that you don't do enough damage and in the nxt saying that you can 2-shot mobs without difficulty.
What we are trying to state in this thread tho is that the MAJORITY of the nukers we as melee encounter will take us out within 10 sec.
And as a side note, Now i'm not sure how much MP you have but my guess is around 1800 MP. So if your nukes cost 60 MP, that equals 30 mobs on one MP round, but since your walking that means your regening another 250 MP on that same bar that's another 4 mobs that are equal to your own lvl and give you 6.6k XP. That's a grand total of 231200 XP on ONE MP round.
For a melee hunting the same mobs it would take about 20-40 min of constant fighting to kill that amount of mobs and cost us a lot more. Not to mention that most melee doesn't have the ogre totem which can regen HP, meaning they have to take even more breaks than me as a tyrant, so add perhaps another 20 min in only HP/MP breaks.
So around 30-40 min for a melee to get what you get in only 10 min seems completly fair to you??
Prominence (my only nuke) at lvl 62 has 89 power-the same lvl SH has a nuke with 111 power.And as we all KNOW power is MUCH more important than M.atk right?
I made a post earlier in the thread that said something really nice about M.Atk, but just for you I will say it again:
And last but not least (no matter what you nukers say) M.atk.
According to what I have read in other threads, m.atk doesn't matter that much, it's the power of the spell that matters.
I checked something on that, a nuker with around 100 m.atk (same lvl as me) did around 300 dmg with the strongest nuke, then she equiped the weapon and got around 700 m.atk, BAM 1.8k dmg. So m.atk doesn't matter??
I really fear what a nuker with 4k+ m.atk does in dmg, prolly around 6-7k dmg on a single nuke without a crit.
For myself as a melee, with around 100 p.atk i hit for 10-20 dmg, with 700 p.atk i do around 50 dmg/fist =100 dmg.
So if I would get 4k+ p.atk i would do what?? 1k dmg per hit?? And that vs a nuker who can throw spells faster than I can hit
I mean i have awsome att.spd (1051 fully buffed) while a SH in my clan said he had 1100+ fully buffed, and they are the slowest nukers. SpS have reported 1400+ cast.spd
It seems that the vast majority of players (yes even nukers) can pretty freely admit that there is a problem as far as Ranged (esp. nuker) vs Melee goes.
There may be cultural reasons for this, but I dont know of any culture that expressly forbids the Slow->Sleep->/socialdance->nuke to death "strategy" that affords nukers such an advantage in PvP. Maybe on the Korean servers all PvP is started at 0 range (though I doubt it) or maybe 1v1 PvP is simply not as big a deal.
If EE is the most common class, as some state it is, then there would be plenty of EE buffs to go around in mass PVP, so melee might stand a chance of reaching nukers. However, if I may take the thread on what might be a slight tangent, what I would like to discuss is self-buffed 1v1.
Is there anyone who thinks that a Melee in, say, top B grade with whatever SA is best for their class with whatever tats are best for PvP etc. will stand a chance against a nuker in Avadon with an acumen wep and all the tats they could desire? Barring careless play or extreme luck (sleep failing, nukes resisted [never happens]), the nuker will win 100% of the time.
Here are the problems:
-Debuffs and sleep land too often with BSPS. If a slow spell or sleep lands, its pretty much game over.
-Nukers have too high a DPS. To fix this, either the damage done per nuke or the speed at which nukes can be fired must be lowered. I am a fan of the lower casting speed argument. There are simply too many things which add to casting speed. Nukers should do a ton of damage, but they should also be nervous about a melee catching them.
-If a melee actually reaches a nuker, it is very hard to land a skill. If the nuker is kiting, melee skills (including the seemingly all-important stun) will read "Target is too far." This has been discussed quite a bit, and is really quite annoying.
-Another problem related to cast speed: Even if a nuker cannot land sleep on a melee, he can still kite very well. Because melees are so slow (with the exception of Tyrants) and because casting speed is so fast, it is possible for a nuker to land 4 or 5 nukes without slowing or sleeping. This is also a function of open space in the game, but I dont know how to fix that one without it being annoying for players.
-Nukers should not be able to touch their strength. No other class-type has an expendable stat, and it makes stun land too infrequently if nukers have plusses to their con. If a nuker wants to add to stun resist, she should have to make some kind of sacrifice to do it.
I have clear mind skill which makes standing still and walking the same as sitting MP wise.Im sry if my equip seems low for you-after all my funds arent endless.This was the point i was trying to make-not EVERY mage can get all things in this game after playing for 2 months.Ive managed to lvl up quite fast-much faster than ANYONE else ive met.And this is my first char on the server-so i cant twink my char or use OE weapons.You miss something though more XP-less adena means the same thing that is now-i wont have the A grade till 70+.So i need both adena AND Xp.Problem is i AM 2 shoting the mobs BECAUSE i have demon-it gives me 106 M atk-making it up to 800.Not much but its good for me.Ill say this again-i didnt mak my class like this-i was forced to make it since i got no adena.
To the other guy-mate you compare too big diff-try to get a Demon set.Put it on a low lvl nuker and see how much more M.atk/Dmg it gives and then find a higher lvl nuker and check him too.Btw mages arent overpowered-there are classes like archers (MAYBE daggers) that can kill us.SO i see no reason to NERF anything.I see a reason to boost the melee however.
Its your fault your poor not ours, boohoo, you must be doing something wrong as almost every mage ive ever seen has middle/top grade equiment with each new grade.
It is not off topic; I'm trying to show you(and I mean you ingeneral, not just you) that mages are tipically overpowered in almost every iteration of their forms, be it literature and fantasy games.
continuing with the D&D assesment:
Fighters in D&D are merely brutes that serve no more as meat shields for the mages to level. And mages (both wizards and sorcerers) in D&D are way too powerful even at lower levels, wizards being vulnerable just because they can use a very limited ammount of speels at a time per day.
But in D&D sleep, paralizing, charming, rooting, enchanting and illusions are far more reliable to deal with a fighter than low level combat spells. you went for magic missile, the poor man's fireball in your example, and I agree that you'd be very lucky if you downed anyone with it, specially a power built fighter. but what if instead you casted sleep, a pell against wich even high level fighters have trouble saving against? Then all you'd have to do is pull out your dagger and slash his troath, all in a single round of action... or maybe setting him ablaze with burning hands and watch his clothes and leather armor catch fire. I hear that's nice.
And at lvl 20 it's worse and more fun: Time stop anyone? or a maximized chain lighting, boy do those hurt. 120 hp at the very least in a single strike, plus a save vs massive damage. And the all time favorite: Power Word Kill.
You'll never start an encounter against a mage at melee range, not ever. You'll NEVER run into a mage that doesn't have memorized contingency spells. EVER. It's like trying to catch a fighter without his sword... what are the odds?
and D&D mages also have their own version of Bsps, it's called quick spell, and you can also combine it with still, silent and maximized spells, and then you have a walking weapon of mass destruction. Everymage worth his salt also has written spells in magic scrolls; instant death from above, no casting time since reading them counts as a single action, or meta spells that are in an artifact ready to be casted. I bet you never ran into a mage that had a ring of maximized fireballs. D&D is the game that didn't take into account PvP, it's a party PvE game; and it shows the limitations of the system since everytime you try to take on a friend you realize how botched the system is. Oddly enough, it's rogues who are more capable of dealing with mages since they can approach them more or less undetected.
Now, regarding game mechanics directly related to L2:
Somebody used a chess analogy, well how about this if it helps you picture it more clearly. Mages are queens, archers are bishops, Daggers are towers, DD are towers, buffers are knights, and tank melee are pawns. wich are more numerous, and wich ones are easily expendable?
I also find it hard to believe that everyone assumed that the PvP would be one on one all the time, when just by looking at the skillsheets is evidently that the PvP was in groups? the game practically forces you to get in a clan to achieve anything worth mentioning, all of the bosses need a large party to take down, game end creatures need alliance sized raiding parties to take on. Hasn't it ocurred to you that melee is the OTHER support class? That we and healers and buffers support both archers and mages?
I ask because I've never felt cheated or lied to: I knew exactly what I was getting into when I chose to be a tank, I'd be that, a meat shield for my party's healer and mage, and that I wouldn't be good at fighting against anything different than a dagger, warrior class or another tank. And now we can deal with archers better so it's all good.
But it never crossed my mind that I would be able to down a spellcaster; the whole concept is weird to me since a tank shouldn't be killing mages. In no game that I've played are knight classes able to beat combat spellcasters, since for some weird reason mage classes in videogames (that are not western and D&D based) have very good evasion skills or are **** hard to interrupt their casting. :p
Late hit on this one, we've moved on from D&D. If you want to make a D&D comparison thread please do. Because it is obvious to you that melee should be support for nukers that is how it should be? If we let every single player in this game reroll a character at lvl 76, we would end up with a lot of nukers and archers and almost -no- melee. Oh wait! What happened on the PTS? Most people rolled a necro or a SH or a SpS. I rolled a dagger and got my *** handed to me 100% of my 1v1 encounters with nukers.
D&D is off topic. Literature is off topic. Each follows different rules and doesn't need to really be balanced. D&D is a PVE game so doesn't really necessitate PVP balance. Literature writes the rules of what characters can and cannot do at a whim so can't be used as the basis for a game system because its designed around a predetermined outcome. Characters lose because its what's best for the story and not due to any skill or ability.
D&D is a PVE game designed over 25 years ago and is admittedly quite broken but its not a huge issue because its PVP.
The developers at NCsoft were setting out to develop a PVP game and in essence came up with something that is designed around PVE tenets with very little balance.
Somebody used a chess analogy, well how about this if it helps you picture it more clearly. Mages are queens, archers are bishops, Daggers are towers, DD are towers, buffers are knights, and tank melee are pawns. wich are more numerous, and wich ones are easily expendable?
Okay, I used the chess analogy. You then misunderstood it so I'll explain it... again. I'll try to go even slower this time for you.
Chess is designed around the fact that both sides start out equal. The pieces are not equal but that's okay because each player has the same pieces and at the start of the game cannot determine which pieces they have.
The chess board is analagous with any group in the game (alliance, party, clan). There are a limited number of positions of all the better units on the board at the start of the match. Lineage2 does not share this limitation so it cannot be the basis of the balance. If every player was allowed to start the chess match with an entire army of queen's they would and that is why there are so many people rerolling characters at this point.
You can call it whatever you want but you can't call it balanced. You can't call it good game design. You can blame it on their culture or the developers being behind the times but it doesn't change the fact that the game isn't balanced around PVP.
And just because you have a predetermined viewpoint that the game should be inherently flawed doesn't mean that its okay. So your acceptance of the status quo is that you just don't know any better...
It is one of the most on topic parts of the discussion.
What we keep hearing is the same thing over and over and over again ad nauseum. Nukers are this, melee are this, THIS needs to be done and everything will be fine.
What he is showing is that in one earlier incarnation of a roleplaying game the history of the classes was "thus".
L2 does not exist in a vacuum. It is a mixture of what has gone before with a variety of cultural preferences as well as an hommage to Western artistic sensibilities.
What he is pointing out is that there is historical evidence to support a particular thesis. But if you don't like that particular example then find another.
Point is that this game does not exist in a vacuum.. especially this game where the classes fall into very generic catagories.
Oh sure... we have come a long way from some of the original roleplay games but this game is not that "beyond the pale" so that we can't see the imprint of what has come before.
In order to truly understand this game and why things are the way they are it might be helpful for us as players to really understand what has come before as well as what the devlelopers could possibly have been thinking.
Just because we as players say "this is really how it should be" doesn't mean that that is the way it is. There was another thread (this thread?.. ****.. so many) where another player pointed out some similarities from Korean games which did support a variety of the issue that you see in this game today.
If I find it I will post a link because I felt it was interesting.
But nothing is going to get done by just saying the same things over and over. So I personally welcome expanded discussion with greater understanding, so that we can discuss the topic with greater breadth.
Though sadly... without any input from the developers is any of this of any worth other than for people to vent or to hear ourselves talk. :confused:
Though sadly... without any input from the developers is any of this of any worth other than for people to vent or to hear ourselves talk.
Finally we agree on something. I accept your opinion that all previous forms of RPG's, MMO's, and fantasy literature is on topic. I do not, however agree. L2 does not exist in a vacuum, but does that mean that we have to repeat balance flaws that other games have?
Though this thread is in General Discussion, I think that we should move on from the "my book says this" and "my DM let me pwn melee characters all the time" bump we seem to have hit. I hate to quote myself, but I think my suggestions for balance may have been covered up by a page break. Reposting here (if I have broken some kind of unspoken forum rule, I appologize for my nubitude, feel free to PK me in game etc.)
-Debuffs and sleep land too often with BSPS. If a slow spell or sleep lands, its pretty much game over.
-Nukers have too high a DPS. To fix this, either the damage done per nuke or the speed at which nukes can be fired must be lowered. I am a fan of the lower casting speed argument. There are simply too many things which add to casting speed. Nukers should do a ton of damage, but they should also be nervous about a melee catching them.
-If a melee actually reaches a nuker, it is very hard to land a skill. If the nuker is kiting, melee skills (including the seemingly all-important stun) will read "Target is too far." This has been discussed quite a bit, and is really quite annoying.
-Another problem related to cast speed: Even if a nuker cannot land sleep on a melee, he can still kite very well. Because melees are so slow (with the exception of Tyrants) and because casting speed is so fast, it is possible for a nuker to land 4 or 5 nukes without slowing or sleeping. This is also a function of open space in the game, but I dont know how to fix that one without it being annoying for players.
-Nukers should not be able to touch their strength. No other class-type has an expendable stat, and it makes stun land too infrequently if nukers have plusses to their con. If a nuker wants to add to stun resist, she should have to make some kind of sacrifice to do it.
D&D is off topic. Literature is off topic. Each follows different rules and doesn't need to really be balanced. D&D is a PVE game so doesn't really necessitate PVP balance. Literature writes the rules of what characters can and cannot do at a whim so can't be used as the basis for a game system because its designed around a predetermined outcome. Characters lose because its what's best for the story and not due to any skill or ability.
D&D is a PVE game designed over 25 years ago and is admittedly quite broken but its not a huge issue because its PVP.
The developers at NCsoft were setting out to develop a PVP game and in essence came up with something that is designed around PVE tenets with very little balance.
Again.. no it's not. And you point out the reason why it's not.
You are saying that D&D is a PvE game. You then say that the developers set out to design a PvP game but they did it through PvE. (edit)
It seems to me that that is the case. This is a pvp game but it might have stemmed from very solid PvE sensibilities. Again... our NC developers are not stupid but I don't think they are very wise.
And as I said in my other post, nothign exists in a vacuum. I'm sure that the developers are very knowledgeable about other game systems so that they can build on what came before.
It just seems that they didn't really make the pvp part very satisfying.. at least to us. Again... what do our eastern players think of it?
Though sadly... without any input from the developers is any of this of any worth other than for people to vent or to hear ourselves talk.
Finally we agree on something. I accept your opinion that all previous forms of RPG's, MMO's, and fantasy literature is on topic. I do not, however agree. L2 does not exist in a vacuum, but does that mean that we have to repeat balance flaws that other games have?
OH GOD NO!!!
That is the whole problem. What "should" have happened was that the developers should have recognized the flaws and done things to change them.
The whole reason why "history" is so important is that we can use it as a template but bypass the undesirable parts.
This is provided that the game is "not" operating in a way that the developers really intended. I'm not so sure... I think their sensibilities might be quite far off from ours. That is not to imply that they are any lesser but more to the point that what we feel is fun might be different.
there's lots of other things they could do also, like decrease range of spells, increase spell interruption, allow resists/spell failure at higher rates, etc.
Ive been here so short a time and im already bored by these nerf mages threads.
I guess you ppl should all roll a nuker and see if you like it.If you enjoy making the kills and not taking the damage tanks arent your class.My roommate has made 5 BD now (ive made 4 Sorcerers-everyone a high lvl).On each new server he was trying to roll a Sorc because he was jealous (dunno if i spell it right) of the insane kill speed of mages.After lvl 40 however he always got back to a BD.I think this is the class he wants to play.
If you ppl cant find a class to play in this game maybe just quit?I might have chosen SpS if i wanted to pvp best.I might have chosen a SH if i wanted to solo best.But i droped both before reaching 40 and return to my Sorc because i didnt like the few diff in playstyle.
The bsps is great for landing debuffs.Why dont you ppl try without one?1 from 10 landing?In that time he will come to you and start to interup your cast (unless you got 1.4k cast speed<.<)
D&D should not be compared with L2-after all D&D is turn based you see you enemies and got plenty of time to react.However in L2 by the time you know what is happening it might be too late (low HP) or if you do notice it might be imposible to escape (slowest run speed-imo bsoe should be removed).
How come 1 sleep change everything?Yes i can heal myself then surrender to x you and run/nuke but 1 sleep is nothing.1 archer stun however is MUCH more dangerous than sleep will ever be.
After the nerf on aura flare (which had to be nerfed) closing on a nuker with that melee you can stun/disrupt his cast without taking much dmg.And closing is easy for fast moving (daggers,tyrants?) chars.
This disscusion will lead nowhere-if you dont like your class than maybe you should not play it?
Shut up man you dont know jack. The point is theres no reason to play anything other then a mage. I enjoy being a gladiator but that enjoyment is ruined when i see an equal mage run along side me and 2 shot kill a mob in 10 seconds something which takes me 40 seconds to kill. I cant stand playing a clikc and kill mage its boring, but when i go on my melee i find the comparison in killing speed disgusting, my lvl 40 nuker kills mobs faster then my A grade gladi, wheres the sense in that? This game is turning into a mage dominated experiance, there is no call for melees anymore and no reason to play them, few people find playing a weak class fun.
This would have direct impact on PvE (and a BIG one at that).
Range of sleep/slow (SpS has special slow) is 600.If you mean that nukes should be 600 range then archers shoul fire at 600 range also-but this would mean a decrease in speeds game wide (on all chars,all buffs remade and all mobs adjusted!)
Spell interruption is good as it is.If you got enough attack speed you can interupt almost every cast (+cast speed lowers that chance).The sorc a bigger lvl concentration spell than the others and i get maybe 25% intrrupted with it on me.
The dmg of a nuker is in direct link with their HP.This is why we got lowest of all HP.If you want to ressist more you will need to give mages more HP to be able to survive an encounter lol!
Can you tell me exactly how much HP does a +4 CON adds to a nuker?I got 2k HP and 1k CP (no demon set on)right now.The real problem is the weak P.def of robes-we need to wear robes (i hope you knew this) so we are very easy to kill with P.attacks.And if they are ranged (archers) what more then i can say?Also dont bring up the buffs.This is an entire game in itself.So i need 2 weapons now=1 with acumen and 1 with BtB?
Oh and im the nuker with the most base CON stat ingame-which means the other nukers have less HP.
This would have direct impact on PvE (and a BIG one at that).
Range of sleep/slow (SpS has special slow) is 600.If you mean that nukes should be 600 range then archers shoul fire at 600 range also-but this would mean a decrease in speeds game wide (on all chars,all buffs remade and all mobs adjusted!)
Spell interruption is good as it is.If you got enough attack speed you can interupt almost every cast (+cast speed lowers that chance).The sorc a bigger lvl concentration spell than the others and i get maybe 25% intrrupted with it on me.
The dmg of a nuker is in direct link with their HP.This is why we got lowest of all HP.If you want to ressist more you will need to give mages more HP to be able to survive an encounter lol!
Im sorry... but what on earth did you just say o_O
Interuption chance is good as it....may i ask how often you play with dark crystal, dance of concentration and consentration6 ?
oh and by + con without affecting any relevant stat for your class, you dont have the lowest hp.
a couple of fun facts, Spellhowlers with DC have higher runspeed than bladedancers/shillien knights if they choose to take zerk and the fighters dont.
Did you know casting speed directly affect reuse time (cooldown) of a spell and attack speed physical skills.
Mage classes can beat well over 700 p.def with zerk2 on (and no song of earth).
Well you HAD to bring in the buffs dont you?Also its AGAIN the PvP set (DC).Maybe i should whine about the 70% sleep ressist on Nightmare?
Sure casting speed does (bsps dont).Yes mages can beat over 700 P.def (ive read about beating 800) still this is HIGHEST posible-when you got DC set enchanted and all other nice things.Now if you pvp the lvl 75 nukers which are in big clans with tons of adena then yup all mages got them.But the average nuker that just started wont have all this.Seems to me you ppl have problems with the DC set.
Oh and i got 121 speed-SH has 125.
I can get concentration by myself (this is unique for me only) but the dance-you will need a BD.And we are stepping in the group pvp where things get interesting and a little messy.As someone stated here this is not a single player game.
Your posts add nothing to this discussion. If you are sick of reading the "nerf mages" threads, stop reading them. This is a serious issue whether you like it or not, and the fact that you suck at playing your class does not prove that nukers and melee are balanced. So you lost to a dagger once upon a time. That dagger was hitting pots, may have been a significantly higher lvl (ie had a grade jewels) or could have been buffed, you simply dont know. Hell, I killed a SpS in a freak PvP, and I'm worse than a healer when it comes to 1v1 (for the record, he got stuck on a rock and failed 3 sleeps in a row, it wasnt his fault). Here is the issue which you seem eager to ignore: nukers own melee 1v1 self buffed. 1 nuker can, as has been pointed out, decimate an entire party of melee with crowd controll skills.
After the nerf on aura flare (which had to be nerfed) closing on a nuker with that melee you can stun/disrupt his cast without taking much dmg.And closing is easy for fast moving (daggers,tyrants?) chars.
I play a tyrant, and in 99 out of a 100 I NEVER get the chance to close in on a nuker because I'm slept before I even get half the distance.
And for your information, getting close doesn't always help. Hell I've even tried jumpning on nukers that didn't even know i was there until I was hitting on them, result??? Sleep, heal, nuke, sleep, rince repeat.
All it takes is for the stun not to land or the daggers miss their blows and the nuker comes out victorious, never fails.
And as pointed out in other replies, nukers can + their con without any side-effects leaving them harder to stun. And with the cast spd nukers possess then they can both nuke and sleep before your char even has time to react. If the sleep misses?? Well, not to much of a problem for the nuker, he just takes 2 steps back and try the sleep again. Again, with the cast spd that nukers have their skill-reuse time(atleast on the sleep) is nxt to minimal, not even a full second.
But really Torg. If melee were able to take on ANY class in the game (and they have little difficulty withstanding DD, and now we can handle archers properly) one on one, what would stop people from playing all melee? I sincerely don't want melee to become another flavor of the month.
there is an unspoken fact: people over here love to brag about PvP. There have been countless suggestions as to keep a track of when, how and against who you PvP'd; when it is not the purpose of the game. the purpose is to raise a strong clan and a strong alliance, and the ultimate goal would be to dominate as much of Aden as possible.
That and raid en game bosses.
I don't know if you noticed, but the game real improvements are leaning towards mass PvP instead of singled out, one on one dueling. The Olimpiad is an exception in that it is one on one for access to end game content, be it the hero status. Some people have commented that with Bsps forbidden in the omlimpiad, matches were much more close between fighter and mage classes. I've been trying to point out that melee isn't supposed to fight against spellcasters as much as healer classes aren't supposed to be taking on damage dealing classes.
Why don't we have threads on complaining that tanks can't take on damage dealers? the rage nowadays is melee can't do squat aguanst nukers, very much like it was everyone vs archers in C1 and prelude. Archers are still going strong, but not in the capacity of two shotting everyone in their sight they used to have.
Are you still not seeing the pattern? Nuking is the way to go now, and it is fashionable; it wasn't always this way, and at one point in the future will become a non issue. Why do you think nukers were given such "godly" power? Because korean players complained. why is it then, that in the time elapsed between one prelude and 4 chronicles melee hasn't got such a big boost?
Have you ever stopped and wondered that maybe it's because OVER THERE it isn't such a big issue? I could agree that it is indeed a very fragile game design, where a single matter of not being numerically enough, or not have the variety of players using the full roster of classes can render a single class way too powerful; but if OVERE THERE, in the country where the game was designed, and played the way it was designed for, they have no such trouble; then it has to do with something else.
We can clearly see that melee in Korea had the same trouble as everyone else with archers, and melee was given better modifiers to block arrows and shield masteries and the reflect arrows skill. And now it is only a matter of levels and equip, instead of flat out overkilling by archery.
so Maybe C5, C6... or some chronicle in the future melee will "reign" supreme; we just can't tell because apparently the design works as intended. And it boils down to a problem of "I want it now because Me, Myself and I want to PvP against mages one on one self buffed and call it an even fight" when by design, literature, cross referenced, metaphorically wise; a one on one fight of a fighter against a mage ends with the fighter a pile of ashes.
Let's set it for the record: I am not a blind NC supporter, but TO ME it makes complete sense that as a knight I have no chance against a single nuker. TO ME, design is good in THIS game if I as a tank need the support of 3 different SUPPORT classes to have a decent chance of survival SINCE EVEN IF YOU ANALIZE THE LII MYTH YOU CAN SEE EVERYTHING IS MAGICALLY HEAVY. I'll be happy, if by level 75 in top gear, self buffed I get a 20% chance of defeating a nuker mage; since TO ME I SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SOLO A MAGE OF MY LEVEL.
I see it like this: All I have going for me is a lot of HP, and some insignificant magic resistance; and a nuker mage is an specialized caster in dealing LOTS of damage... 3-4 shots are a good deal to me. :eek:
I wanna see how can a nuker self buffed kill an archer (self buffed) in open field pvp!Pls show me a vid of this!
Also i cant ignore those threads because you actually want to make my class weaker.So you are working against me sry.Nobody wants a gimped char-you ppl should now this best.But atleas ask NCsoft to make your class better not other classes as gimp as you.
For that guy im 100% sure he wasnt buffed and he didnt hit a single pot (you know the ring that shows when you do?) Well maybe its supposed that nukers own melees in 1v1.
I really wanna see that fight with the archer though (and i would suggest that NCSoft forbid the use of shields on nukers).Nuker should not have a shield however (excelent shield defence=1 dmg on a crit<.<)
1 nuker can, as has been pointed out, decimate an entire party of melee with crowd controll skills.
A few nukers in my clan had some fun in the arena one day, they were 4 ppl, with full buffs.
1 SpS, 2 Sorcs and 1 SH all in their mid 60's with decent gear, the SpS and SH in avadon the other 2 in Zubei.
They killed everything in the arena in less then 4 min. There where mostly melee's in there with the addition of a few nukers. Some where in their early 70's and some in their late 50's-early 60's.
My point is that they killed EVERYTHING in less then 5 min. And the only way they got taken down was when the remaining nukers and archers gathered up and went all out to root them out of the arena, the melee's managed to take down one of them but only after loosing half the party.
Sounds like fair PvP??
4 nukers against around 10 melee and some nukers and archers and the 4 came out victorius.
This isnt open field pvp.This is either an arena fight or siege.In a siege you dont fight 1v1 duels.And arena fights are nothing.
You can put up totem rabbit to close in (the nuker can only nuke you at this point) minimizing dmg taken.After reaching him use puma (reduce P def-no worry eh?).You are dual wielder so you got 2xchance to disrupt the spell.(also an archer crit that got reduced to 1 dmg stopped my cast in pvp-so i think dmg isnt important-or its for shield cases only-dunno happend only once so im not sure) When you got low on HP totem bison?I never played a tyrant-i just copy/paste what tyrants write here.
About the poster above-that is arena-all skills can be used and archer party (if present) cant kite because of limited space.Sry but i stated that ARCHERS should kill mages-not tanks.Also in that arena were there any daggers?Again with the full buffs..did those melee had full buffs too?And by full i mean SwS/BD/PP.
But really Torg. If melee were able to take on ANY class in the game (and they have little difficulty withstanding DD, and now we can handle archers properly) one on one, what would stop people from playing all melee? I sincerely don't want melee to become another flavor of the month.
there is an unspoken fact: people over here love to brag about PvP. There have been countless suggestions as to keep a track of when, how and against who you PvP'd; when it is not the purpose of the game. the purpose is to raise a strong clan and a strong alliance, and the ultimate goal would be to dominate as much of Aden as possible.
That and raid en game bosses.
I don't know if you noticed, but the game real improvements are leaning towards mass PvP instead of singled out, one on one dueling. The Olimpiad is an exception in that it is one on one for access to end game content, be it the hero status. Some people have commented that with Bsps forbidden in the omlimpiad, matches were much more close between fighter and mage classes. I've been trying to point out that melee isn't supposed to fight against spellcasters as much as healer classes aren't supposed to be taking on damage dealing classes.
Why don't we have threads on complaining that tanks can't take on damage dealers? the rage nowadays is melee can't do squat aguanst nukers, very much like it was everyone vs archers in C1 and prelude. Archers are still going strong, but not in the capacity of two shotting everyone in their sight they used to have.
Are you still not seeing the pattern? Nuking is the way to go now, and it is fashionable; it wasn't always this way, and at one point in the future will become a non issue. Why do you think nukers were given such "godly" power? Because korean players complained. why is it then, that in the time elapsed between one prelude and 4 chronicles melee hasn't got such a big boost?
Have you ever stopped and wondered that maybe it's because OVER THERE it isn't such a big issue? I could agree that it is indeed a very fragile game design, where a single matter of not being numerically enough, or not have the variety of players using the full roster of classes can render a single class way too powerful; but if OVERE THERE, in the country where the game was designed, and played the way it was designed for, they have no such trouble; then it has to do with something else.
We can clearly see that melee in Korea had the same trouble as everyone else with archers, and melee was given better modifiers to block arrows and shield masteries and the reflect arrows skill. And now it is only a matter of levels and equip, instead of flat out overkilling by archery.
so Maybe C5, C6... or some chronicle in the future melee will "reign" supreme; we just can't tell because apparently the design works as intended. And it boils down to a problem of "I want it now because Me, Myself and I want to PvP against mages one on one self buffed and call it an even fight" when by design, literature, cross referenced, metaphorically wise; a one on one fight of a fighter against a mage ends with the fighter a pile of ashes.
Let's set it for the record: I am not a blind NC supporter, but TO ME it makes complete sense that as a knight I have no chance against a single nuker. TO ME, design is good in THIS game if I as a tank need the support of 3 different SUPPORT classes to have a decent chance of survival SINCE EVEN IF YOU ANALIZE THE LII MYTH YOU CAN SEE EVERYTHING IS MAGICALLY HEAVY. I'll be happy, if by level 75 in top gear, self buffed I get a 20% chance of defeating a nuker mage; since TO ME I SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SOLO A MAGE OF MY LEVEL.
I see it like this: All I have going for me is a lot of HP, and some insignificant magic resistance; and a nuker mage is an specialized caster in dealing LOTS of damage... 3-4 shots are a good deal to me. :eek:
We are not asking to be raised to godlike status, all we want is the chance to be something else besides cannon-fodder and PvP-padding. I don't want the nuker classes to be gimped into oblivion, better then to give the melee's (and I atleast count tanks as melee) someway of being on equal terms with nukers and archers.
1 melee vs 1 nuker should = fair fight
9 melee's vs 9 nuker's should = fair fight
NOT
1 melee vs 1 nuker = death to melee
9 melee vs 9 nuker = death to melee
18 melee vs 9 nuker = death to melee
27 melee vs 9 nukers = fair fight
This isnt open field pvp.This is either an arena fight or siege.In a siege you dont fight 1v1 duels.And arena fights are nothing.
You can put up totem rabbit to close in (the nuker can only nuke you at this point) minimizing dmg taken.After reaching him use puma (reduce P def-no worry eh?).You are dual wielder so you got 2xchance to disrupt the spell.(also an archer crit that got reduced to 1 dmg stopped my cast in pvp-so i think dmg isnt important-or its for shield cases only-dunno happend only once so im not sure) When you got low on HP totem bison?I never played a tyrant-i just copy/paste what tyrants write here.
You definatly haven't read the whole thread have you??
I wrote earlier in the thread that I was in a siege this last weekend, in a melee party. Rabbit doesn't help you very much when sleep cloud hits. My whole party spent the most of the siege running back into the castle. We had an estimated survival of about 1 sec, that was the time for 1 nuker to do a sleep cloud. I got away around 20 hits that night, 5 skills, didn't kill a single nuker. Got slept 1 sec after i started hitting and was dead 2 seconds after.
About the poster above-that is arena-all skills can be used and archer party (if present) cant kite because of limited space.Sry but i stated that ARCHERS should kill mages-not tanks.Also in that arena were there any daggers?Again with the full buffs..did those melee had full buffs too?And by full i mean SwS/BD/PP.
Some of them had prophet and SE buffs, and some where unbuffed. The 4 nukers from my clan only had prophet and SE buffs. There where a atleast 1 or 2 BD present in the arena and maybe 1 SwS. And yes there where daggers in there.
*added the text below*
And as for totem spirit bison. You use it when you start loosing HP, but there is a little problem with activating it when the time it takes to go from full HP/CP to dead is around 5 seconds. And besides I would have to be lvl 68 to get it, I'm only 65.
I cant remember every post made here after all.
Siege PvP was discused (Taraza was then pointing out that mages can be beaten-now its me) in another thread.There are 31 classes (ughh right?2:30 here<.<) in this game-many combos+the buffs+the terrain and current situation.
Who said those ppl were instantly playing together vs the 4 nukers?The nukers had clearly an idea what is gonna happen and they were organised.The melee were fighting among themselves i take it?And any dagger wont miss a chance to run to the back of a nuker and make some nice dmg.Also as stated not everyone has the "right" equip or high enough lvls-the melee might have been lower lvls/under equiped.
1 thing for sieges though-i always thinked that sieges dont end when you kill all the attacking clans members right?Its a fight of endurance.It took time for them to take you down-time which brings you closer to victory-a nuker targeted will last even less than you (there are extreme cases such as this though that dont make a diff-tank or nuker).The point of siege is to keep the other players out (or to break in) in a 2 hours time span-even if you succeed you STILL need to protect it.After all a nuker doesnt replenish his mana when he dies and after 30-60 minutes you see nukers starting to slow down.When the enemy tires you try to overrun them.Again sieges have special rule set (doesnt matter who died how many times by who).
I cant remember every post made here after all.
Siege PvP was discused (Taraza was then pointing out that mages can be beaten-now its me) in another thread.There are 31 classes (ughh right?2:30 here<.<) in this game-many combos+the buffs+the terrain and current situation.
Who said those ppl were instantly playing together vs the 4 nukers?The nukers had clearly an idea what is gonna happen and they were organised.The melee were fighting among themselves i take it?And any dagger wont miss a chance to run to the back of a nuker and make some nice dmg.Also as stated not everyone has the "right" equip or high enough lvls-the melee might have been lower lvls/under equiped.
Wasn't it you who stated that you would have been killed no matter what equipment you had???
Those daggers that I saw where equipped in a-grade, and one of them I know for sure was above lvl 70.
And as for Taraza's it requires about 5 different kind of support classes to protect you from 4 different kinds of nukers.I don't know about you but i don't have those 5 available at all times, heck I would be glad f I even had 1 prophet following me. Not to mention that some of the buffs require the BD and SwS to be atleast lvl 72.
1 thing for sieges though-i always thinked that sieges dont end when you kill all the attacking clans members right?Its a fight of endurance.It took time for them to take you down-time which brings you closer to victory-a nuker targeted will last even less than you (there are extreme cases such as this though that dont make a diff-tank or nuker).The point of siege is to keep the other players out (or to break in) in a 2 hours time span-even if you succeed you STILL need to protect it.After all a nuker doesnt replenish his mana when he dies and after 30-60 minutes you see nukers starting to slow down.When the enemy tires you try to overrun them.Again sieges have special rule set (doesnt matter who died how many times by who).
Good to know that I ONLY have to die over and over again for the short time of 30-60 min before the nukers starts to run low on MP, WOHOO. Not to mention that everytime you and your groups are running back the enemy nukers can sit and regen the most of their MP. And the other flaw in that reasoning is that our own nukers also go low on MP which nicely equals in stand off.
And for a little side note for those that say that melee's have the upper hand inside the castle. What hapens if you cramp 30 melee into a small throne room and toss out a few sleep clouds over them?? And I mean sleep clouds that are powered by B-sps = 80% chance to land......
Hmm i have problems finding BD+SE (good thing for the acumen pots<.<)
Pls quote me on what i have said and what you want to discuss im starting to get confused :confused:I said that if i got avadon or demon or karmian or devotin is STILL the same-i had the same chance with all of them not to die.The only thing that would save me was A grade set-which i cant afford at my low 60s (i dont really know how i will obtain the helmets :().
Thats why i said dont bring in the buffs-things get really complicated (same as starctaft dialogs i had with my friend about the dragoon units of the protoss) and we cant just say get this,and this.But there are less buffers needed by mages( SE is a must +a BD the other are a bonus).
On one of my former sorcs (not on offi serv) i had devotion till 52 (that was c1 back then-no CP and archers were pwning everyone) it didnt make a diff if i had a dev or karmian.
So stand still isnt good enough?You will keep the castle!Which means you WIN the war but lose the battle (you die in the process).It doesnt means you have to go and die 200+ to tire them.You need all your ally/clans to try and tire the attackers till the time runs out.
We are not asking to be raised to godlike status, all we want is the chance to be something else besides cannon-fodder and PvP-padding. I don't want the nuker classes to be gimped into oblivion, better then to give the melee's (and I atleast count tanks as melee) someway of being on equal terms with nukers and archers.
1 melee vs 1 nuker should = fair fight
9 melee's vs 9 nuker's should = fair fight
NOT
1 melee vs 1 nuker = death to melee
9 melee vs 9 nuker = death to melee
18 melee vs 9 nuker = death to melee
27 melee vs 9 nukers = fair fight
I would have to agree. My only caveat is that IF this game is operating like the korean developers mean it to be then we either don't get it or we are not playing the way we should be.
As people have said time and time again... this is a clan game... an alliance game.. not a 1v1 game. So... it is possible that this game is solely designed with this in mind AND that the outlay of the playing pieces is does not have as great a disparity with the original player base. so... there are peope there who love playing EE's... more than here.. the perhaps their are players there who play melee and don't have any issues at all because they play in relation to being in a larger group. Maybe mages don't outnumber melee over there.
In any case... it does not seem to be working here and a rethinking of the classes might be in order.
It might only be small changes... but it is not a simple fix... at least not simple like "remove bsps" or make sleep like "so".
Exaclty... if no balancing of melee has ocurred; it because OVER THERE this issue is a non issue or everyone is happy with it, or agrees it is like that and don't complain as much. For what I've seen in arena fight videos over there, melee classes are played a lot and so are buffer classes who are not botted or 2 boxed.
And so the problem boils down to a problem of perception of what classes are supposed to be able to do, vs what those classes are indeed supposed to do.
But maybe we should agree first on what a "fair fight" is supposed to mean to everyone of us. Is it just 50.50 chance of defeating the other toon either buffed or unbuffed?
Does this fair fight thing takes into account Bsps as part of the testing? Is top jewelry for each grade taken into consideration on the complaining party? or we go prelude jewelry when you could withstand spells with just top D grade?
Are we talking fair fight with same level toons, with melee having all of its resistances and masteries learned, with top grade jewelry vs a same level, top gear including weapon mage? Or are we talking fair fight as in : I am more than 5 levers lower or not fully trained but I still want to be able to compete fair?
The canceling trough UD has been brought in as evidence; yet no one has stated if cancel breaks trough UD WITHOUT the use of Bsps. If I am not mistaken Bsps were brought into existance because mages had trouble landing debuffs on magical resistance monsters, AND PERHAPS because without them Ud'd tanks could stand all debuffs at no risk.
Again: has there been tests against specifically prepared sets? the sleep resistance 80% for example, with toip jewelry, with and without Bsps, and with normal sps? Because fighters in general depend a whole lot in resistance gear in any game, not just Lineage; it is not theorizing, it's fact. Else there wouldn't be even death guarding magical items in every other game.
Mages are supposed to dominate the field, PWNING to be precise. Unless the required and precise resistant gear is made available to the offended class.
Let's analize it the other way around: If melee had access to an "exclusive" consumable that allowed them to double their movement speed and at the same time lowered the debuff chance by and 80% even if it were way expensive... Would you, as melee, enter the fray without a healthy supply of the aforementioned consumable? Would you not use it because it rendered other class, spacifically mages; vulnerable to you?
If you had access to an armor set, that added a % to your movement speed, along with your damage output and attack speed; would you refrain from using it?
Would you mind be called "another melee reroll of the month"?
Because I'm getting this impression that a fair fight means more than that.
This isn't about ME. I dont' play a melee. I just realize that a game that calls itself the 'premiere pvp' game should be designed around PVP.
Your call that mages in all literature and lore are powerful is kinda true (but not supported by all literature) but do you remember how many mages existed in most of those sources? In Lord of the Rings, how many mages were in the entire world?
Think hard...
Okay now we have to wipe the servers. Then we're going to start over with only 5% (because I like to spoil people) of the accounts allowed to even create a nukers... the rest can be support characters.
That would actually be balanced. Why? Because we've now capped them and forced the 1 v 20 argument that you seem to think balances it out.
If there are no quotas on classes then you cannot make certain classes inherently stronger.
Again... if the Koreans aren't complaining it might be because they're not as competitive as Europeans and North Americans. They don't do alot of underhanded tactics that popped up on our servers. It seems that yes their culture is different so that they're satisfied with broken, unfair timesinks with pretty graphics. The majority of Korean MMO's that I've seen advertised all support this claim. Its that they're not very discerning customers and don't know any better. Now that there are newer iterations of the MMO field out on the market that are destroying the old paradigm I think you will see some major changes as games have to be revamped to live up to a smarter consumer.
This isn't about ME. I dont' play a melee. I just realize that a game that calls itself the 'premiere pvp' game should be designed around PVP.
Your call that mages in all literature and lore are powerful is kinda true (but not supported by all literature) but do you remember how many mages existed in most of those sources? In Lord of the Rings, how many mages were in the entire world?
Think hard...
Okay now we have to wipe the servers. Then we're going to start over with only 5% (because I like to spoil people) of the accounts allowed to even create a nukers... the rest can be support characters.
That would actually be balanced. Why? Because we've now capped them and forced the 1 v 20 argument that you seem to think balances it out.
If there are no quotas on classes then you cannot make certain classes inherently stronger.
Again... if the Koreans aren't complaining it might be because they're not as competitive as Europeans and North Americans. They don't do alot of underhanded tactics that popped up on our servers. It seems that yes their culture is different so that they're satisfied with broken, unfair timesinks with pretty graphics. The majority of Korean MMO's that I've seen advertised all support this claim. Its that they're not very discerning customers and don't know any better. Now that there are newer iterations of the MMO field out on the market that are destroying the old paradigm I think you will see some major changes as games have to be revamped to live up to a smarter consumer.
A lot of good stuff guys...
Also, Torg... funny you should mention Lord of the Rings... in the mmo that is coming out they are limiting the magic using characters to one character that seems to be primarily a healer...
So even those developers realized (and have said as much) that this is a pandora's box.
*sorry you had to return to town there Tokara... that looked hurtful :(
Magic crits happen every once in a blue moon; I've proffited and survived a couple of times because of them since I can one shot yellow cons with one drain health. I wouldn't rely on a magical crit to survive anything or everything; even if I played a mage.
I agree torg, since every mage in literature was defeated either by his own mistakes, or by taking him unaware and with his pants down; or they fall because of arrogance, but never to a head on battle... unless faced yb anmother mage. Are we seeing the trend yet?
From a specifically L2's lore point of view it would be silly for a fighter to take on a mage head on and expect to come out of the encounter somewhat unscatched. Still, consider this. IF you could stand say... 8 to 10 shots unbuffed... then what good would be a mage against melee? Because then, fully protected they'd need what? 12 to 16? I'm talking 8-10 shots of any spell using bsps... is that what could be called balance?
Because we've been beating this to death and yet no one speaks of an specific ammount of resisted spells that would constitute a "decent" or "fair" ammount of damage. If they can 2 shot you, then 5 shot you is better or still unfair?
I'm asking without any intend to flame, just out of sheer cusiority. And we only have damaging spells; we don't have the nasties of instant death and petrifying, or the all time evocation favorite: Disintegration. Or the always popular polymorph others.
We just have elemental damage, and poison. Sleep and root or paralysis for crowd control...
Magic crits happen every once in a blue moon; I've proffited and survived a couple of times because of them since I can one shot yellow cons with one drain health. I wouldn't rely on a magical crit to survive anything or everything; even if I played a mage.
with wm2.. alot more often than u think..
I have been crited twice by the same mage.. in the same battle.. in a row... =ownage on my part.
the thing with magic crits is while in PvE they help endurance and overall killspeed slightly.. In PvP they cannot be relied on and if they do happen unless the mage is fighting2-3 people at melee range most any melee with drop to one..
On taraza, I know SwS songs and resists and all that REALLY help against mages. same as for archers. The main problem melee have is dealing dmg!! it doesn't matter if the said offender is only dealing u 100 or 1000 damage a nuke or shot if u cannot deal them damage u lose.
SR's entagle and run
Sps and sorcs cancel wind walk and run away
necros and SH's slow u
or all mages chain chain sleep+nuke
PR's stun all but the mightiest con tanks
HE's well.. they can't do it, they just activate snipe and pour on the dmg
there will be the comeback that every melee should carry a bow.. well most cannot afford this and if we could will we be demoted to sucky range classes in order to make up for the inability to close the gap?
In conclusion its not the mage damage, nor the archer damage, nor the buffs that allow these characters to win. with the loss of aura flare, a mage a melee or an archer. the melee will always win. However, the melee cannot currently get to that range. they just run headfirst into their deaths
First, are you talking of the first and original D&D, or AD&D that came after it or about the new D&D that revamped all the rules of AD&D?
Wizards have to obtain their spells, and depending on the GM and your groups house rules, it can be a real pain in the ***. As such, using all possible spells that a Lvl1 wizard can have, is perhaps stating that you played a "Monty Haul". Where magic is abundant and everyone can get magic items, spells and the like. However, AD&D has many many worlds, and it gives the ability to create your own worlds. Depending on the world and your GM, not to mention house rules, mages can be BBQPWNERS or they can be weak, frail thingies that chuckle in the shadows and sometimes cast something.
Well, you cast sleep. And I'm an elven fighter with natural reistance to sleep. Also, if I happen to win initiative, you're more than likely dead. Remember, it's turn based and weapon speeds and initiative rolls affect the outcome alot. Also, how about I'm wearing an elven cloak and elven boots? I supprise your mage in the wild. If you have all the possible spells, I have all the possible countermeasures and items that I can obtain with the same gold your scrolls would cost(if you can even buy em from someone, depends again on GM, world and house rules.)
At lvl20, timestop is not a spell that all mages have, yet again ;) Ofcourse, it all again depends on the world etc. But, if your mage has timestop and whatnot, my fighter is carrying a deadmagic-zone stone. Welcome to Faerun(Forgotten Realms, Drizzt and companions) When AO sent the Gods into mortal world, dead- and wildmagic zones appeared. A stone from a Deadmagic stone can create a zone of dead magic around it. So, my lvl 20 fighter carries one with him and comes to your mage. You cannot cast _anything_. This is as possible a scenario as your mage having all the possible spells, contingencys prepared or owning artifacts of immense power.
120 dmg? Doesnt matter much when you have innate regeneration from high con, vampiric regeneration from a ring and your HP is pushing 140. Not to mention that the fighter has just read a few scrolls - protection from lightning, protection from fire, protection from acid, protection from petrification(just to mention a few.) And has magic resistance conferring items, thus your spells might not do _anything_ yet again. We once did some calculations, and a Drow fighter could end up with 96%(or was it 76%) magic resistance. That, was his innate resistance. Even at 76%, your spells would more often fail totally than work. Add in items that protect from certain spell types. Add in scrolls of protection. And, give the fighter arrows of mage slaying(these caused a big argument, as the arrow states that if it hits the target, target is slain. But, if you have stone skin on, does the arrow actually hit or not? ;) )
Last I checked, scrolls had a speed added to initiative, was it 5 or 7(yet again, this is AD&D. If you're talking about the new D&D, then shame on you since it discarded all that was before and is a game not like the previous versions, thus not worth even playing.)so, a mage reading from a scroll would most often lose his initiative roll to a fighter with enchanted weaponry.
AD&D had 3 books that you essentially needed to play, Players Guide, Dungeon Masters Manual and Monster Manual. Then you could go and pick as many content adding books as you wanted, and then, you could still only take some, or all of the rules and items. You could also make alot of your own items, rules, spells, monsters and most importantly worlds. AD&D was a roleplaying game, where depending on the GM and house rules, everything was possible. It has all that you need to defeat a mage, but it also has all that a mage needs to defeat a fighter. It just depends on the GM if he wants the world to have these things or not.
However, Lineage2 isnt as vast, or as freely modifiable, so we cant really assume that since 1 group in AD&D played powerhouse mages, L2 should follow the same rules. AD&D had as many balances as it had GMs. This is not true in the behalf of L2, where the same rules apply to _everyone_. And if we cannot change the rules, we cannot balance the game into our liking. Thus, L2 and AD&D are totally different.
Lets pick on literature. Crimson Shadow trilogy, Luthien Bedwyr is something between a rogue and a fighter, and he defeats Demonic Wizards that have ruled the kingdom for ages. In head to head fights. A fighter defeating wizards toe to toe. Drizzt Do'Urden, Forgotten Realms(AD&D, Faerun world) defeats numerous mages, and is a ranger himself. He has only fighter friends with him but they still overcome magic always. Runelords saga, mages are a bit more like summoners, tied to their elements -and rare. Most powerful beings are the Runelords, warriors that have attributes from other humans(or even animals) transferred to them thru blood metal burn marks. Warriors, that can destroy whole cities with their voice. Kill thousands of people with 1 word since their voice is so great.
Both games and literature of the genre have dominating mages, but they also have dominating fighters so truely, you cannot say that literature or other games justifies the overpowering of mages in L2. Whole genre of Fantasy is so wide that you can always find arguments as to why things should be like this or that.
Now then, if we look at Asian culture, and use Anime as our justification, then again you could say that nukers should be powerfull, or that fighters should be powerfull. It again, boils down to the fact that the genre is so wide and there are so many different stories. For example, in Berzerk, the main character wields a huge sword, and in the end battles demons and elder gods(sorry for the spoiler ^^). In Bleach, Ichigo fights other Shinigami that use demon magic. He fights them with raw spiritual power and his sword. And wins... He also fights lots of other things that use different magics or magic-like skills, but still comes on top due to his spiritual power and brute force. He swings yet again a huge sword ;)
If you want to use other sources as justification, fine, but then use the whole genre and not just a few examples from it.
Perhaps, in the end, the only thing that matters, is how L2 is viewed in Korea, and this should be the topic of discussion.
As for balance, I'd see it would be balanced, when the nuker owns me 100-0 when he has the range advantage BUT if I get to him, and get to swing my sword it should atleast be 80-20 for me. IF I get to swing my sword that is bigger than the nuker, then he should _die_. Not like its now, I get 1 swing off, do some dmg, then get slept, rooted, canceled, surrendered to 3 different elements, gloomed and nuked to kingdom come by the assisting nuker group in less than a split second.
If the PVP was balanced, 1vs1, I would have a chance to win, even if it was 30% or something, but as it is now I dont have that chance, since slow means death to me. Sleep aint that big a thing to me, but slow is since I'm one of the slowest classes in the game already, and if I'm slowed by a debuff I might aswell sit down and wait for the nuker to do socialdance and then nuke me to death with lvl 35 nukes. Since I have no way of catching him or dealing dmg to him if he so chooses(My range with bow is less than his range with nukes, so once I'm slowed he can kite me to death safely.)
My Mdef is 488, with FULL BO set, so even if you didnt use bsps, you have a fair chance to land the debuff, but with bsps it _will_ always land.
Now I'm off to make some adena for A-grade >.< (ps, does A-grade helm recs now drop or spoil somewhere? ;) Havent found any info yet on those and I hate the ToI quest.)
While people mentioned melee having higher HP and higher CP they didn't explain why this is SOOOO important and a great advantage over ranged who have lower HP/CP. With HIgher CP you obviously can spam more CP pots and also while using CP pots can also be healing HP with greater healing pots. That alone adds a lot to survivability. Sure ranged can use those pots too but they have so little HP/CP and pdef that they drop too fast to really get any use out of spamming pots. Also melee can carry more than ranged and CP pots are HEAVY, and they are heavy for that exact reason. Also with more CP and HP healers actually have a CHANCE to heal melee. Many ranged I see get dropped faster than any healer could even react, with melee there is more HP/CP 'padding' so healers can react. I know ppl will flame about melee needing support to balance PvP but its support that ranged can rarely take advantage of. Also melee damage is not that bad. TSS does over 1k to archers/nukers, Destroyers special hits me for like 800 and I have 1100+ pdef and with Dance of Fire their crits do more but specials always land so its a MUST to dish them out when u get the chance. i know ppl say 'well you are a SwS, of course nukes don't hurt you' well I only got like 700 mdef unbuffed, not particularly 'uber'. Its SONGS that make SwS seem great against nuke damage but EVERYONE can have songs so.....what the [censored] does it matter. Also all Paladins and Temple Knights should look at teh change done to Holy Armor :) a much needed change and its about time.
Lineage pvp should have a paper rock type effect, Melee should beat archers. Mages should beat melee and archers should be able to beat mages. But as it is Melees beat nothing but themselves, archers beat themselves & melees and mages beat everything and can only die to another mage. Out of the 31 classes there i believe are more melee class then anything else, yet they beat the lowest proportion of the class population. Mages are the least common and yet beat every single class ingame. PvP is broken, i dont know or care if the devs know this, but their game is starting to suck because of these major flaws of logic.
While people mentioned melee having higher HP and higher CP they didn't explain why this is SOOOO important and a great advantage over ranged who have lower HP/CP. With HIgher CP you obviously can spam more CP pots and also while using CP pots can also be healing HP with greater healing pots. That alone adds a lot to survivability. Sure ranged can use those pots too but they have so little HP/CP and pdef that they drop too fast to really get any use out of spamming pots. Also melee can carry more than ranged and CP pots are HEAVY, and they are heavy for that exact reason. Also with more CP and HP healers actually have a CHANCE to heal melee. Many ranged I see get dropped faster than any healer could even react, with melee there is more HP/CP 'padding' so healers can react. I know ppl will flame about melee needing support to balance PvP but its support that ranged can rarely take advantage of. Also melee damage is not that bad. TSS does over 1k to archers/nukers, Destroyers special hits me for like 800 and I have 1100+ pdef and with Dance of Fire their crits do more but specials always land so its a MUST to dish them out when u get the chance. i know ppl say 'well you are a SwS, of course nukes don't hurt you' well I only got like 700 mdef unbuffed, not particularly 'uber'. Its SONGS that make SwS seem great against nuke damage but EVERYONE can have songs so.....what the [censored] does it matter. Also all Paladins and Temple Knights should look at teh change done to Holy Armor :) a much needed change and its about time.
Us glads can sure hit you for over 1k damage, then we have to have a down time of 30 seconds to recover the spell and another 10 seconds to charge up focus, in those 30-40 seconds any class in the game can kill me. Inbetween specials all i can do is swing my swords and hit for 100-200 damage at a slow rate, thats crap tbh. and as for cp and heal potions, at high levels those dont even do jack, i can carry about 15 cp pots without getting over weight, they wont even fully heal my 5k cp bar and whilst im sitting there spamming the button to heal cp and hp, the other class can easily carry on hitting me and out damage me. As for heal potions, on a ranged class they are far more effective as you have lower HP and you dont get constantly hit because u keep moving, allowing time for the potion to take effect and heal you, us melees have to continue to recieve damage at the same time as using the potion, which makes em completly pointless. The only good potion out there is quick healing, but they are so expensive no one can afford to carry and use those.
I agree torg, since every mage in literature was defeated either by his own mistakes, or by taking him unaware and with his pants down; or they fall because of arrogance, but never to a head on battle... unless faced yb anmother mage. Are we seeing the trend yet?
That they weren't meant to be player characters? Yeah.. wipe the servers and remove them from the game. Excellent point.
This is why you can't use literature as a source for a game. Literature is bound by certain rules and characters rarely abuse their power unless its for the point of the story. The mages in literature could move mountains but chose not to unless it was for the point of the story. Its a completely different system.
You have to think of everything as a system. Its not a 'mage' its a ranged damage dealing unit. How it deals damage does not matter...
Oh wait, then you go to the D&D example which I've pointed out was never intended for PVP so isn't balanced. The developers even admit that its not balanced because they use a completely different guideline for what constitutes game balance.
I can't possibly bring you entirely up to speed but here's how balance in a game with no quotes and designed for class vs class competition should work.
Characters should consume virtually the same % of HP/MP to kill an even level mob with 0 resistances with only self-buffs and equal gear. Characters that kill slower should have more crowd control and damage mitigation skills to make fighting safer. Characters that kill faster should have less control over the fight other then pure damage.
That would balance things out but mages would lose alot of their control skills and be just pure damage dealers, same goes for mobs. Part of the problem is that they upped mob damage and speed back in C1 to counteract the abilities already given to the mages and archers but it only made the game harder for the other classes.
This would level the playing field by removing many of the overpowering features of the ranged damage classes.
The system you describe is not balanced, is homologated; wich is similar but not the same. Having homologous characters, that consume more or less the same ammount of MP, receive the same ammount of dmg on same gear etc, only makes for very boring gameplay in PvP.
What would be the point of choosing a class over the other? everyone works more or less the same.
Wich is why I keep asking what do you refer to as balance. But I don't think same damage dealt can be called balance really.
Let me tell you how I picture balance: a system in wich every class has a role to fulfill, and is given enough tools and skills to carry out that role. Combat between different classes, specially melee and spellcasters will always be a pain in the rear to balance out. And quite frankly, balancing out so it is "even" makesit boring, at least in my eyes; since there would be no challenge whatsoever or no sense of victory.
This dueling is fun: it's like a Superman vs Batman duel, it's just we melee have not been handed out the krypto ring yet. Just you wait.
I was testing this out with clannies last night. A level 40+ caster in decent gear coulld only root me or sleep me 60% of the time, I'm a level 32 Knight, with all masteries learned for my level and top NG jewelry. this was without using sps or BSps. And my stun could land over 70% of the time and I could damage him and interrupt him.
the paradigm is Torg; that mages dominate in the magic arena. Mages dominate in range. The only way to defeat a mage is either up close from behind, or shooting an arrow trough their heads.
The alternative is have GIMPED melee and mages, and then force everyone to group in partys of 20, since whatever you do, things will turn ugly PvE wich is the largest portion of the game. Now is the game too easy or too hard? Have you ever given tought to the consecuences of "fixing" the casters?
IF melee were given resistances (so as to not nerf mages) and that somehow allowed them to have an edge in PvE too and level faster than everyone else... would you not cry nerf them? Because we don't complain we CAN'T level here or there, we just complain we level SLOW and some complain we can't PvP our way out of a paper bag, but when has a tank or DD class cried that they can't level here or there?
The system you describe is not balanced, is homologated; wich is similar but not the same. Having homologous characters, that consume more or less the same ammount of MP, receive the same ammount of dmg on same gear etc, only makes for very boring gameplay in PvP.
Just because it consumes the same % doesn't mean they behave in the same fashion. That's just a failure in your thought process and no failure in the design I'm laying out.
Example. Fighter loses 100/2000hp and 10/1000mp in a fight (0.036% of total). Mages loses 0/1000hp and 72/2000mp in a fight (0.036% of total). Additional variation is brought in with mobs that have resistances and weaknesses. The major difference between classes becomes the amount of time it takes to kill mobs and that can be balanced out by the amount of risk.
I think the spectrum would end up looking something like this: Safe -> Fast
Healer -> Tank -> Buffer -> Summoner -> Ranged Damage Dealer -> Melee Damage Dealer
The damage dealers would be shifted about at the one end of the spectrum due to varying amounts of armor and how long they're expected to be taking damage.
What would be the point of choosing a class over the other? everyone works more or less the same.
Because you enjoy the playstyle and kill speed, just like now? There just wouldn't be obviously better classes.
Wich is why I keep asking what do you refer to as balance. But I don't think same damage dealt can be called balance really.
I'm not talking about the same damage dealt... but what I refer to as balance is indeed balance.
Let me tell you how I picture balance: a system in wich every class has a role to fulfill, and is given enough tools and skills to carry out that role. Combat between different classes, specially melee and spellcasters will always be a pain in the rear to balance out. And quite frankly, balancing out so it is "even" makesit boring, at least in my eyes; since there would be no challenge whatsoever or no sense of victory.
Not really balance unless you start putting quotas on certain classes. This goes back to the chess example of how each side only starts with 1 queen. If given the option each player would take all queens rather then any pawns.
This dueling is fun: it's like a Superman vs Batman duel, it's just we melee have not been handed out the krypto ring yet. Just you wait.
There is really no contest between Superman and Batman because it goes how the writer feels it should go. This is a game and boils down to stats and luck. This is why you shouldn't even mention literature in a game balance discussion. Superman's real stats and abilities (and willingness to use them) are all dictated by the writer so have no real impact on the outcome other then if the writer decides that he can or cannot do something.
the paradigm is Torg; that mages dominate in the magic arena. Mages dominate in range. The only way to defeat a mage is either up close from behind, or shooting an arrow trough their heads.
The alternative is have GIMPED melee and mages, and then force everyone to group in partys of 20, since whatever you do, things will turn ugly PvE wich is the largest portion of the game. Now is the game too easy or too hard? Have you ever given tought to the consecuences of "fixing" the casters?
IF melee were given resistances (so as to not nerf mages) and that somehow allowed them to have an edge in PvE too and level faster than everyone else... would you not cry nerf them? Because we don't complain we CAN'T level here or there, we just complain we level SLOW and some complain we can't PvP our way out of a paper bag, but when has a tank or DD class cried that they can't level here or there?
Most tank or melee DD's classes have complained about the gross inbalance in PVE as well. The game is not so bad at low level because the classes are pretty generic and at low levels its designed around mostly solo play. Most of the major boosts from gear/buffs/tattoos are not available until a player is at least level 40 if not much higher.
The damage mitigation provided by range increases dramatically as characters get higher in level. P.def and evasion do not keep up with the damage mitigated by simply not standing in front of the mob and killing it before it can touch you (aka Getting Hit At All > 0). M.def was never really setup correctly because it wasn't factored into the PVE defensive experience. It was a stat that was only used by mobs in PVE because mobs didn't cast back.
I'm not asking for melee to be overpowered. I'm still calling for balance. No one would suddenly reroll melee except for the people that liked the idea of melee but didn't like the idea of being cannon fodder or having trouble levelling.
If you look at the actual paradigm provided by the backstory of the game. Orcs should be practically untouchable in 1v1. Humans should be the most populous class and require multiple of each of their classes to take on another race. Dark Elves and Light Elves should be far more rare. Dwarves should start off rich and have access to enhanced gear.
It all boils down to the fact that its still just a game and should follow normal game rules. You can slap a backstory on a game of chess about how the White Queen hates the Black Queen, the pawns were all born of the god of fire and the Rooks are all mountains of living stone but that doesn't change the rules.
There is no point to fielding a pawn when you have access to an unlimited number of queens.
the paradigm is Torg; that mages dominate in the magic arena. Mages dominate in range. The only way to defeat a mage is either up close from behind, or shooting an arrow trough their heads.
The problem is that now it doesn't matter if you jump on a nuker from behind, he just takes the hit and then sleeps you which in 99% of the time = dead melee.
The archers tho have bigger chance of killing the nuker at that occasion.
Us glads can sure hit you for over 1k damage, then we have to have a down time of 30 seconds to recover the spell and another 10 seconds to charge up focus, in those 30-40 seconds any class in the game can kill me. Inbetween specials all i can do is swing my swords and hit for 100-200 damage at a slow rate, thats crap tbh. and as for cp and heal potions, at high levels those dont even do jack, i can carry about 15 cp pots without getting over weight, they wont even fully heal my 5k cp bar and whilst im sitting there spamming the button to heal cp and hp, the other class can easily carry on hitting me and out damage me. As for heal potions, on a ranged class they are far more effective as you have lower HP and you dont get constantly hit because u keep moving, allowing time for the potion to take effect and heal you, us melees have to continue to recieve damage at the same time as using the potion, which makes em completly pointless. The only good potion out there is quick healing, but they are so expensive no one can afford to carry and use those.
carry less soul shots to seiges :p. Destroyers can carry well over 100 greater CP pots. Also there are a lot of buffs that lower skill reuse timer. The Sword Muse alone has TWO songs that greatly benefit physical skills for classes like glads, archers, destroyers, daggers and the such. One song lowers re-use time and MP use and another one that reduces physical skill MP use. Then you got ES buff too. Its not like a gladiator has one attack skill anyway, they can string quite a few and Fatal Strike also got a boost as well. Within seconds a glad could easily unleash 1600+ damage. Also use charge stones for the first few charges to save time.
Us glads can sure hit you for over 1k damage, then we have to have a down time of 30 seconds to recover the spell and another 10 seconds to charge up focus, in those 30-40 seconds any class in the game can kill me. Inbetween specials all i can do is swing my swords and hit for 100-200 damage at a slow rate, thats crap tbh. and as for cp and heal potions, at high levels those dont even do jack, i can carry about 15 cp pots without getting over weight, they wont even fully heal my 5k cp bar and whilst im sitting there spamming the button to heal cp and hp, the other class can easily carry on hitting me and out damage me. As for heal potions, on a ranged class they are far more effective as you have lower HP and you dont get constantly hit because u keep moving, allowing time for the potion to take effect and heal you, us melees have to continue to recieve damage at the same time as using the potion, which makes em completly pointless. The only good potion out there is quick healing, but they are so expensive no one can afford to carry and use those.
carry less soul shots to seiges :p. Destroyers can carry well over 100 greater CP pots. Also there are a lot of buffs that lower skill reuse timer. The Sword Muse alone has TWO songs that greatly benefit physical skills for classes like glads, archers, destroyers, daggers and the such. One song lowers re-use time and MP use and another one that reduces physical skill MP use. Then you got ES buff too. Its not like a gladiator has one attack skill anyway, they can string quite a few and Fatal Strike also got a boost as well. Within seconds a glad could easily unleash 1600+ damage. Also use charge stones for the first few charges to save time.
Those buffs you are talking about is from lvl 76 and up for those classes. Not that many that has reached those lvls yet.
You are bringing up things all the time that requires more classes then most of us don't have access to.
And why is it that melee would need so many buffs and so to fight 1 nuker that only needs a GMHP and a few b-sps to kill 3 melee??
Us glads can sure hit you for over 1k damage, then we have to have a down time of 30 seconds to recover the spell and another 10 seconds to charge up focus, in those 30-40 seconds any class in the game can kill me. Inbetween specials all i can do is swing my swords and hit for 100-200 damage at a slow rate, thats crap tbh. and as for cp and heal potions, at high levels those dont even do jack, i can carry about 15 cp pots without getting over weight, they wont even fully heal my 5k cp bar and whilst im sitting there spamming the button to heal cp and hp, the other class can easily carry on hitting me and out damage me. As for heal potions, on a ranged class they are far more effective as you have lower HP and you dont get constantly hit because u keep moving, allowing time for the potion to take effect and heal you, us melees have to continue to recieve damage at the same time as using the potion, which makes em completly pointless. The only good potion out there is quick healing, but they are so expensive no one can afford to carry and use those.
carry less soul shots to seiges :p. Destroyers can carry well over 100 greater CP pots. Also there are a lot of buffs that lower skill reuse timer. The Sword Muse alone has TWO songs that greatly benefit physical skills for classes like glads, archers, destroyers, daggers and the such. One song lowers re-use time and MP use and another one that reduces physical skill MP use. Then you got ES buff too. Its not like a gladiator has one attack skill anyway, they can string quite a few and Fatal Strike also got a boost as well. Within seconds a glad could easily unleash 1600+ damage. Also use charge stones for the first few charges to save time.
Those buffs you are talking about is from lvl 76 and up for those classes. Not that many that has reached those lvls yet.
You are bringing up things all the time that requires more classes then most of us don't have access to.
And why is it that melee would need so many buffs and so to fight 1 nuker that only needs a GMHP and a few b-sps to kill 3 melee??
Well our alliance has these classes and at high lvls, we do fine. Just shows that its not a design flaw at all, its a player flaw. Its a clan leader's flaw for not recruiting well. Also people bring up nuker 3rd class skills all the time when they speak of balance so I'm gonna bring up THE REST of the class' skills. If you ever seen what mages went through at lower lvls in PvP seeing them own in lvls 60-70 isn't that bad.
Us glads can sure hit you for over 1k damage, then we have to have a down time of 30 seconds to recover the spell and another 10 seconds to charge up focus, in those 30-40 seconds any class in the game can kill me. Inbetween specials all i can do is swing my swords and hit for 100-200 damage at a slow rate, thats crap tbh. and as for cp and heal potions, at high levels those dont even do jack, i can carry about 15 cp pots without getting over weight, they wont even fully heal my 5k cp bar and whilst im sitting there spamming the button to heal cp and hp, the other class can easily carry on hitting me and out damage me. As for heal potions, on a ranged class they are far more effective as you have lower HP and you dont get constantly hit because u keep moving, allowing time for the potion to take effect and heal you, us melees have to continue to recieve damage at the same time as using the potion, which makes em completly pointless. The only good potion out there is quick healing, but they are so expensive no one can afford to carry and use those.
carry less soul shots to seiges :p. Destroyers can carry well over 100 greater CP pots. Also there are a lot of buffs that lower skill reuse timer. The Sword Muse alone has TWO songs that greatly benefit physical skills for classes like glads, archers, destroyers, daggers and the such. One song lowers re-use time and MP use and another one that reduces physical skill MP use. Then you got ES buff too. Its not like a gladiator has one attack skill anyway, they can string quite a few and Fatal Strike also got a boost as well. Within seconds a glad could easily unleash 1600+ damage. Also use charge stones for the first few charges to save time.
Those buffs you are talking about is from lvl 76 and up for those classes. Not that many that has reached those lvls yet.
You are bringing up things all the time that requires more classes then most of us don't have access to.
And why is it that melee would need so many buffs and so to fight 1 nuker that only needs a GMHP and a few b-sps to kill 3 melee??
Well our alliance has these classes and at high lvls, we do fine. Just shows that its not a design flaw at all, its a player flaw. Its a clan leader's flaw for not recruiting well. Also people bring up nuker 3rd class skills all the time when they speak of balance so I'm gonna bring up THE REST of the class' skills. If you ever seen what mages went through at lower lvls in PvP seeing them own in lvls 60-70 isn't that bad.
Well, I haven't included post 76 nuker skills.
And from my own experinence nukers own everything that is within 5-10 lvl of them from the moment they get their hands on some b-sps or even regular sps.
And good for you that you are in a high lvl clan, not all of us are tho. As I said earlier, there arn't that many lvl 70-78 ppl yet. They are getting there but there is still a long way to go. Not all of us are hardcore players spending every waking moment infront of L2. Some of us even have something called IRL.
Your idea of balance is still 4-5 on 1 with a few particularly rare classes which would be better used with the ranged damage dealers anyway. Your arguments assume that we have to have melee so we should put them to good use. We don't have to have them. They provide no utility that could not be provided by a more competitive class. If a player really wants to swing a sword/mace/etc then they should play a warcrier, overlord, swordsinger or a bladedancer. Those classes can provide the same fun factor of charging to one's death but can at least justify their presence in the group by making sure that the real damage dealers survive longer.
I don't think mages have it that bad in pvp at lower levels either so I don't really see why they should dominate at high level. If we're going to suggest that pvp weak classes at low level should end up dominating later in a swords and sorcery ugly duckling scenario then I suggest that elven elders and bounty hunters are probably more worthy recipients.
The game isn't balanced, that point has pretty much been surrendered by all but the most delusional player. The debate here has become whether or not it should be balanced.
Is it better to remain true to a piece of fiction and make a bad game or to make a good game?
As far as mages always dominating melee... we have no idea what level Gandalf was. He had been playing in Middle Earth since at least Closed Beta so of course he had a distinct level advantage over most adversaries. I don't even think he was earning any XP until he fought the Balrog, most of the other mobs were probably dark blue to him.
:)
I find the responses hilarious that basically say, "Hey, it's even -- just carry 100 cp and quick heal pots." This is similar to the, "Hey, just get a +16 weapon and you have a chance" threads. By definition, if I have to artificially generate 500,000 hp/cp via a steady pot stream to have a chance against your natural 3500hp/cp, the game's broken (and it is).
Is it better to remain true to a piece of fiction and make a bad game or to make a good game?
As far as mages always dominating melee... we have no idea what level Gandalf was. He had been playing in Middle Earth since at least Closed Beta so of course he had a distinct level advantage over most adversaries. I don't even think he was earning any XP until he fought the Balrog, most of the other mobs were probably dark blue to him.
:)
ROFL.
By definition, if I have to artificially generate 500,000 hp/cp via a steady pot stream to have a chance against your natural 3500hp/cp, the game's broken (and it is).
According to nukers it is an even fight if melee's have to do that. But what makes that reasoning fall is that when your slept you can't use potions, so say that you got time to drink 1 HP and 1 CP pot between the sleepings, that regens 200 CP and 400 HP, that's gone when the nxt nuke hits you for 1.xxx dmg
You speak of buffs all the time helping melee class against ranged.
May I ask what buffs a melee should have in order to be competative against a ranged class Taraza?
I have actually made a list on many posts by now, but removed berserker for obvious reasons now:
1. Bless the Body
2. Might
3. Focus
4. Death Whisper
5. Mental Aegis
6. Haste
7. Magic Barrier
8. Resist Fire/Wind/Aqua (can only have one at a time, or use Elemental Protection)
9. Shield
10.Wind Walk
11.Dance of Fury
12.Dance of Fire
13.Song of Wind
14.Song of Hunter
15.Song of Warding
16.Flame/Storm/Aqua Guard (SwS has Flame and Storm, BD has Aqua. Storm Guard and Aqua Guard are lvl 70 skills, which is why they are so **** effective and why many don't know about them)
17.<FREE SPOT> (Do Dance of Warrior, Song of Vitality, Song of Invocation, accuracy or whatever other buff you think will be effective)
18.<Reserved for Class-Unique self buffs (Totems, Deflect Arrow, Lionheart, Rage, etc.)
19.<Reserved for Debuffs or healing pot>
20.<Reserved for Debuffs or healing pot>
Songs and Dances don't have to be done in that order, you should do it in the most MP effective order. Now 70+ BDs and SwS can keep 6 total song/dance up fairly easily. The main reason we do 5 in PvE is overbuffing concerns and if BDs do first 3 and SwS does last 2 the BD can use that extra MP to Hex mobs. Even if you decide to do like 7 song/dance you can also have a SE/EE give you 2 or 3 recharges and you are back to normal. But this shouldn't be a concern really. In seiges melee should be played as a rushing class, NOT hit and run like ranged. Melee are not meant to be the primary damage dealers on open fields, they are meatshields and basically are second rate killers compared to nukers/archers who rush in to distract the enemy so your main damage dealers (archers/nukers) can follow up and mop up. Now the enemy can choose to ignore melee and go after the enemy ranged DDs but melee are just gonna stun and cancel casts and be an overall nuisance. OR the enemy can spend some MP and manpower hitting meatshields while the enemy ranged DDs drop them.
Also depending on the situation you can always drop things like shield or focus (focus really doesn't add THAT much crit and is pretty much a non factor for many melee classes whom rely completely on brute strength and attack skills like orcs and humans). Every situation is different and every class is different as well. There really is no 'cookie-cutter' buff set up that works for everyone but you must compromise. For example is +10% patk really worth doing over +25% HP? Well for melee I would say no because living longer and getting 3-5 more hits can be more effective than 3-5 less swings but with +10% patk but it REALLY depends.
I find the responses hilarious that basically say, "Hey, it's even -- just carry 100 cp and quick heal pots." This is similar to the, "Hey, just get a +16 weapon and you have a chance" threads. By definition, if I have to artificially generate 500,000 hp/cp via a steady pot stream to have a chance against your natural 3500hp/cp, the game's broken (and it is).
melee have CON and can carry more than other classes, this IS an advantage specific to them that the others cannot have and thus different from something like OE weapons or something. You are ******ed.
And the other dude saying I say you need 4 classes to beat one is not true. Simply because there are great buffs that support classes have that nukers or archers cannot take advantage of like Song of Hunter, Dance of Fire, Advanced Block, etc. and then there are buffs that are just more effective to melee because of stats like +HP stuff, +% of pdef, etc. To say classes are inbalanced when you don't even consider buffs and advantages they get from support classes is ridiculous because thats what supoprt classes do, give advantages to classes. SE helps nukers a lot, however classes like SwS don't really help nukers that much or at least not as effectively as they help physical damage and they offer protection from them (nukers) as well. Silence messes up mages, does nothing to physical. Death Whisper helps physical damage, not magic damage, etc. This is a GROUP game. To consider balance you have to consider the whole, like buffs that help only certain classes.
According to nukers it is an even fight if melee's have to do that. But what makes that reasoning fall is that when your slept you can't use potions, so say that you got time to drink 1 HP and 1 CP pot between the sleepings, that regens 200 CP and 400 HP, that's gone when the nxt nuke hits you for 1.xxx dmg
In mass PvP sleep is next to worthless, people use Waking Scrolls on teammates and sleep isn't that effective. And with NM set, Mental Aegis, and lvl 76 passive sleep resistance sleep doesn't even land that often. There's also Lionheart.
You speak of buffs all the time helping melee class against ranged.
May I ask what buffs a melee should have in order to be competative against a ranged class Taraza?
I have actually made a list on many posts by now, but removed berserker for obvious reasons now:
1. Bless the Body
2. Might
3. Focus
4. Death Whisper
5. Mental Aegis
6. Haste
7. Magic Barrier
8. Resist Fire/Wind/Aqua (can only have one at a time, or use Elemental Protection)
9. Shield
10.Wind Walk
11.Dance of Fury
12.Dance of Fire
13.Song of Wind
14.Song of Hunter
15.Song of Warding
16.Flame/Storm/Aqua Guard (SwS has Flame and Storm, BD has Aqua. Storm Guard and Aqua Guard are lvl 70 skills, which is why they are so **** effective and why many don't know about them)
17.<FREE SPOT> (Do Dance of Warrior, Song of Vitality, Song of Invocation, accuracy or whatever other buff you think will be effective)
18.<Reserved for Class-Unique self buffs (Totems, Deflect Arrow, Lionheart, Rage, etc.)
19.<Reserved for Debuffs or healing pot>
20.<Reserved for Debuffs or healing pot>
Songs and Dances don't have to be done in that order, you should do it in the most MP effective order. Now 70+ BDs and SwS can keep 6 total song/dance up fairly easily. The main reason we do 5 in PvE is overbuffing concerns and if BDs do first 3 and SwS does last 2 the BD can use that extra MP to Hex mobs. Even if you decide to do like 7 song/dance you can also have a SE/EE give you 2 or 3 recharges and you are back to normal. But this shouldn't be a concern really. In seiges melee should be played as a rushing class, NOT hit and run like ranged. Melee are not meant to be the primary damage dealers on open fields, they are meatshields and basically are second rate killers compared to nukers/archers who rush in to distract the enemy so your main damage dealers (archers/nukers) can follow up and mop up. Now the enemy can choose to ignore melee and go after the enemy ranged DDs but melee are just gonna stun and cancel casts and be an overall nuisance. OR the enemy can spend some MP and manpower hitting meatshields while the enemy ranged DDs drop them.
Also depending on the situation you can always drop things like shield or focus (focus really doesn't add THAT much crit and is pretty much a non factor for many melee classes whom rely completely on brute strength and attack skills like orcs and humans). Every situation is different and every class is different as well. There really is no 'cookie-cutter' buff set up that works for everyone but you must compromise. For example is +10% patk really worth doing over +25% HP? Well for melee I would say no because living longer and getting 3-5 more hits can be more effective than 3-5 less swings but with +10% patk but it REALLY depends.
First flaw, Which of the resist buffs should be done in sieges?? If I get resist water and storm guard the the sorc drops me. If I have resist fire and Aqua Guard the the SH kills me and so on.
Second flaw, the power of sleep cloud. 30 melee rushes in, 8 nukers throw sleep cloud over them and you have 30 sleeping melee that get's dropped pretty fast or are left standing there til the enemy nukers have cleared out the ranged threat that comes after us.
First flaw, Which of the resist buffs should be done in sieges?? If I get resist water and storm guard the the sorc drops me. If I have resist fire and Aqua Guard the the SH kills me and so on.
Second flaw, the power of sleep cloud. 30 melee rushes in, 8 nukers throw sleep cloud over them and you have 30 sleeping melee that get's dropped pretty fast or are left standing there til the enemy nukers have cleared out the ranged threat that comes after us.
Songs/dances last 2 minutes for a reason. And you must decide which is more effective according to what you see on the field. For the most part clans are either SH heavy or SpS heavy (I imagine SpS less now though). And with Elemental Protection you resist all elements in one buff.
Sleeping cloud rarely lands so only a few get slept really and thats why we got things like WAKING SCROLLS, NM set, and Mental Aegis buffs as well as high lvl people having resist sleep passive.
According to nukers it is an even fight if melee's have to do that. But what makes that reasoning fall is that when your slept you can't use potions, so say that you got time to drink 1 HP and 1 CP pot between the sleepings, that regens 200 CP and 400 HP, that's gone when the nxt nuke hits you for 1.xxx dmg
In mass PvP sleep is next to worthless, people use Waking Scrolls on teammates and sleep isn't that effective. And with NM set, Mental Aegis, and lvl 76 passive sleep resistance sleep doesn't even land that often. There's also Lionheart.
It's quite funny that you keep saying that we shouldn't bring up the high lvl nukes and so on when you yourself pulls up buffs that require ppl to be lvl 76. And Gear that you cant even wear til your lvl 61.
And waking scrolls doesn't help much when the whole party stands there sleeping. And sleep cloud is VERY effective in sieges because you can sleep whole rooms with it. The ones that resist the first sleep get caught in sleep number 2 or 3 or 4 or 5. And those that still moves after that gets nuked within seconds.
In seiges melee should be played as a rushing class, NOT hit and run like ranged. Melee are not meant to be the primary damage dealers on open fields, they are meatshields and basically are second rate killers compared to nukers/archers who rush in to distract the enemy so your main damage dealers (archers/nukers) can follow up and mop up. Now the enemy can choose to ignore melee and go after the enemy ranged DDs but melee are just gonna stun and cancel casts and be an overall nuisance. OR the enemy can spend some MP and manpower hitting meatshields while the enemy ranged DDs drop them.
Rushing class... really? Don't kite with a melee weapon? Thanks for the expert advice, not sure how people make it to 75 without your assistance.
What about if the target kites you? Not all of the classes can catch them... so the options are to stand still and die... run away and possibly die as the melee gets critted in the back or chase and die. Decisions, decisions.
As you love to point out, archers and mages typically don't need constant healer attention because they have far fewer HP and if they're taking damage they'll either handle it themselves or die. This means all the healers on the other side should have a shot at root/sleep the incoming melee fighters to try to keep them off the mages and archers. If the smarter of the two groups has convinced their melees to reroll as overlords then they can start laying down chant of seal to stop a melee rush in its tracks. The bladedancers, swordsingers and warcriers can attempt to intercept any melee that manage to make it through. Now assuming that the teams are even since that's the only way to have a discussion on game balance... the melee team would lose. The other team would just be far more functional and have more open spots for real damage dealers.
In seiges melee should be played as a rushing class, NOT hit and run like ranged. Melee are not meant to be the primary damage dealers on open fields, they are meatshields and basically are second rate killers compared to nukers/archers who rush in to distract the enemy so your main damage dealers (archers/nukers) can follow up and mop up. Now the enemy can choose to ignore melee and go after the enemy ranged DDs but melee are just gonna stun and cancel casts and be an overall nuisance. OR the enemy can spend some MP and manpower hitting meatshields while the enemy ranged DDs drop them.
Rushing class... really? Don't kite with a melee weapon? Thanks for the expert advice, not sure how people make it to 75 without your assistance.
What about if the target kites you? Not all of the classes can catch them... so the options are to stand still and die... run away and possibly die as the melee gets critted in the back or chase and die. Decisions, decisions.
As you love to point out, archers and mages typically don't need constant healer attention because they have far fewer HP and if they're taking damage they'll either handle it themselves or die. This means all the healers on the other side should have a shot at root/sleep the incoming melee fighters to try to keep them off the mages and archers. If the smarter of the two groups has convinced their melees to reroll as overlords then they can start laying down chant of seal to stop a melee rush in its tracks. The bladedancers, swordsingers and warcriers can attempt to intercept any melee that manage to make it through. Now assuming that the teams are even since that's the only way to have a discussion on game balance... the melee team would lose. The other team would just be far more functional and have more open spots for real damage dealers.
You could also convince all your melee to reroll OL, SH and Necro and Silence everything in sight and let your archers mop up. It all depends on population and what classes you have available. I'm not saying melee are better than range at all, I'm just saying they are not useless and they do play a role and they can be a deciding factor in PvP especially in seiges. Ultimately your idea of balance, and apparently many of the NA/EU L2 population, is much different then mine or the developer's idea of balance.
In seiges melee should be played as a rushing class, NOT hit and run like ranged. Melee are not meant to be the primary damage dealers on open fields, they are meatshields and basically are second rate killers compared to nukers/archers who rush in to distract the enemy so your main damage dealers (archers/nukers) can follow up and mop up. Now the enemy can choose to ignore melee and go after the enemy ranged DDs but melee are just gonna stun and cancel casts and be an overall nuisance. OR the enemy can spend some MP and manpower hitting meatshields while the enemy ranged DDs drop them.
Rushing class... really? Don't kite with a melee weapon? Thanks for the expert advice, not sure how people make it to 75 without your assistance.
What about if the target kites you? Not all of the classes can catch them... so the options are to stand still and die... run away and possibly die as the melee gets critted in the back or chase and die. Decisions, decisions.
As you love to point out, archers and mages typically don't need constant healer attention because they have far fewer HP and if they're taking damage they'll either handle it themselves or die. This means all the healers on the other side should have a shot at root/sleep the incoming melee fighters to try to keep them off the mages and archers. If the smarter of the two groups has convinced their melees to reroll as overlords then they can start laying down chant of seal to stop a melee rush in its tracks. The bladedancers, swordsingers and warcriers can attempt to intercept any melee that manage to make it through. Now assuming that the teams are even since that's the only way to have a discussion on game balance... the melee team would lose. The other team would just be far more functional and have more open spots for real damage dealers.
I think his point is that we melee shall continue to be cannon-fodder and feel proud of it.
You could also convince all your melee to reroll OL, SH and Necro and Silence everything in sight and let your archers mop up.
Really good idea, abandon melee's!!!!
I'm not saying melee are better than range at all, I'm just saying they are not useless
Useless is exactly what you are saying that melee's are.
You are saying that a melee on his own can't do a thing and to be able to do anything he needs the support of magic users.
First flaw, you keep bringing inn buffs which isnt even on your list, like the 2 songs that would help out one gladiators attackspeed.
Second flaw, 70+ bd and swordsinger can not keep up 6 songs and dances fairly easily, 7 is out of the question. SE / EE recharge back up to normal after 7 songs..lmao.
Third flaw, again, you can choose to protect yourself from one element yes, but then there are 4 elemental type nukes in total, so you protect yourself from 25% of the nukers theoreticaly.
Fourth...focus doesnt add that much crit rate? Yes it does.
You could also convince all your melee to reroll OL, SH and Necro and Silence everything in sight and let your archers mop up. It all depends on population and what classes you have available. I'm not saying melee are better than range at all, I'm just saying they are not useless and they do play a role and they can be a deciding factor in PvP especially in seiges. Ultimately your idea of balance, and apparently many of the NA/EU L2 population, is much different then mine or the developer's idea of balance.
Its because you don't understand the term balance.
I provided the option for people that enjoy playing melee classes and don't wish to be a nuker. At least this way they'd still be able to pull their own weight and wouldn't just be hanging around to pad someone else's pvp count. Oh and there are only 40 slots in a clan so if you really want to be competitive and dominate in PVP there's no reason to bother recruiting those classes.
If the classes are not balanced then the designers need to implement quotas so that only so many can be the overpowered classes or they need to have such a huge XP/adena penalty that they're virtually impossible to level.
Your argument can be restated as thus:
Presented with a chess board you will opt to retain the pieces normally on the board. You will take the 8 pawns, 2 bishops, 2 rooks, 2 knights, 1 queen and 1 king and attempt to use them to the best of your ability.
Ah, but then we notice that the rules state that we can choose whichever pieces we wish up to the maximum of 16 per side. I select all queens.
Is this a balanced match? A balanced game? I guess you could claim yes because each side was given the choice as to what they wished to play but any competitive person would select the option that is most likely to win.
Balancing the game makes all of the classes useful and will increase diversity of classes on the server. It would also go a long way towards living up to that 'premiere pvp' title that they're trying to pin on the product.
taraza, you are not "saying" that a melee needs 4 team makes to take down 1 nuker. But you are saying that 1 melee needs a team of buffers/dancers/singers, to take down what could easily be an unbuffed nuker.
I want to make a side point. I think raw damage dealing has gone to peoples heads. Having the highest dps, does not mean you were the only person designed to PvP.
The game has a very evident intended balance:
Nukers and archers have a very high DPS, and they have range to do the damage from.,but low hp/cp, and low defense. They have crowd control skills appropriate to how frail they are, or ranged stun to buy them a few free hits.
melee DD do decent damage, they have little or no range, they have decent defense, and decent to great hp/cp
Tanks have lame damage, maybe a helping hand from summons and debuffs, little to no range, great defense, and generaly great hp/cp
Support are just that, support, they are not meant to do a whole lot on their own. They can suprise sometimes, because they get skills to keep them out of harms way. But generaly they are there to help out other characters.
There is a general balance in the game, any pro is meant to have a con.
the problem is NC often adds things to the game that suppliment the downsides of each class. Sometimes classes get to totaly overcome their handicaps. Daggers land 100% of their skills, nukers land 100% of their debuffs, and who knows what will happen in future chronicles. But when a class overcomes what was intended to be a handicap, or a balancing factor, then they start to dominate. And then they start to believe that thats the way it was intended.
That Balrog fight was Gandlaf's class change quest mob; but the sucker was instanced and so only he could kill him... so he still had a long way to go after that to reach top level... what do you think he was doing all the time he left the fellowship? grinding his rear of course. He then returned the quest item and became Gandalf the White and he could solo Wraiths. Gandalf was also a cheater and hacker since he could double wield and cast while swinging. The *****.
Legolas had a speed ****, Gimli used duping glithces and Aragorn used an invincibility cheat code, plus he had an overenchanted two handed sword that ALSO let him command the hordes of the dead... If that's not a powerleveling clan I don't know what that is.
Not that Saruman didn't cheat either, he allied with the botters of Mount Doom who apparently had an unlimited supply of Orc marauders, and even came up with a glitched super orc build called the Uruk-Hai. Middle Earth was UNBALANCED really.
And Sauron had a maphack, he could see anything trough his Eye Tower, his only limits the amount of monitors he could focus on. :eek:
Melee is already effective; but the apparent need of most people to feel superior by PvP counts, instead of long term goals and achievements have rendered melee's strenght useless: mass numbers. The design has always been clear: this is first a PvE party game, with the option to solo; then a mass Alliance vs Alliance, then Clan vs Clan then Party vs Party and at the bottom 1on1 dueling PvP game. But when you try to do it the other way round, inherent flaws rear their ugly head.
Ugly head in question: Melee isn't capable of dueling face to face against a mage. A lot of people is having trouble grasping this concept. Melee ain't supposed to solo mages.
Melee, and in particular tanks, are back up to archers and mages; Melee should be played in numbers far outweighing spellcasters in order to be effective and have to rely on a number of buffs provided by other support classes. Classes that are either two boxed, relegated to nothing more than buff bots instead of useful assets to a party.
It has been noted in this thread that in Korea the game is played differently, and is apparent that over there this shortcoming of melee is a non issue simply because mages aren't that high in number as they are played over here.
In another thread, a user has seemingly peformed research on this, and came up with the result that OVER there mages aren't as popular because well... they tend to leech xp from melee groups that function well on their own. In a environment where you as a mage are more or less on a KoS you can't level that much, and as such high level mages, with the set ups devised over here are non existant.
It has been brought to attention that mages get these many boosts because they have a hard time finding a party and have to solo instead. Think the exact opposite situation here, where everyone seems to prefer solo to groups, and where healers and buffers are unniversaly shunned. We are told Elven Elders are all the rage over there, and here we can count them with the fingers on one hand.
they prefer archers over melee, then DD then tanks, then Healer buffers with a healthy dose of dwarven; and some mages toss on the side. And so, even one high level mage is overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
torg even brought the mythos into consideration, and maybe we could agree that orcs are indeed almost unbeatable in 1vs1 when melee'd except by other orcs. IF we played classes and races as the lore cues to, we'd have an overpopulace of humans, followed by orcs, then LE then DE, with the ocassional dwarf mixed in.
Melee is already effective; but the apparent need of most people to feel superior by PvP counts, instead of long term goals and achievements have rendered melee's strenght useless: mass numbers. The design has always been clear: this is first a PvE party game, with the option to solo; then a mass Alliance vs Alliance, then Clan vs Clan then Party vs Party and at the bottom 1on1 dueling PvP game. But when you try to do it the other way round, inherent flaws rear their ugly head.
Ugly head in question: Melee isn't capable of dueling face to face against a mage. A lot of people is having trouble grasping this concept. Melee ain't supposed to solo mages.
Mass numbers isn't a class strength and even then it doesn't help. The size of a clan is capped, the size of an alliance is capped. You're always better off to choose the more efficient and powerful classes in that situation. The people that don't are choosing to be inefficient and penalized for their choice.
This is where the chess example comes in really handy. We each get 16 pieces and you can choose to field all pawns so your plan of overwhelming with numbers isn't going to work because I'll just field 16 queens.
You can't rely on the zerg argument as a defense... it fails.
Melee, and in particular tanks, are back up to archers and mages; Melee should be played in numbers far outweighing spellcasters in order to be effective and have to rely on a number of buffs provided by other support classes. Classes that are either two boxed, relegated to nothing more than buff bots instead of useful assets to a party.
This is all opinion on how the game should run and I don't agree that everyone but archers and nukers should be considered support. If that's the case they should really alter the material in the new player area to direct people down the smarter path from the start and explain that all other classes are meant to pad the pvp counts of the mages and archers. I agree that they designed a broken game.. doesn't mean I have to cheer them on over it. The stated purpose of the game and the actual design of the game don't agree. The majority of the game isn't about PVP and isn't even designed with PVP in mind.
Cheers and congratulations to the art team though... those guys are amazing. I just feel bad that they're saddled with such a horrible game development team.
It has been noted in this thread that in Korea the game is played differently, and is apparent that over there this shortcoming of melee is a non issue simply because mages aren't that high in number as they are played over here.
In another thread, a user has seemingly peformed research on this, and came up with the result that OVER there mages aren't as popular because well... they tend to leech xp from melee groups that function well on their own. In a environment where you as a mage are more or less on a KoS you can't level that much, and as such high level mages, with the set ups devised over here are non existant.
It has been brought to attention that mages get these many boosts because they have a hard time finding a party and have to solo instead. Think the exact opposite situation here, where everyone seems to prefer solo to groups, and where healers and buffers are unniversaly shunned. We are told Elven Elders are all the rage over there, and here we can count them with the fingers on one hand.
they prefer archers over melee, then DD then tanks, then Healer buffers with a healthy dose of dwarven; and some mages toss on the side. And so, even one high level mage is overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
I read this post as well but its pure conjecture and the numbers aren't even right. He stated that he thought that due to the lack of high level solo hunting grounds that mages would be more rare because they would be harder to level because mages wouldn't be wanted in catacombs and necropolis groups.
His theory was held together by the lynchpin that they have 10x more users per server so that was 10x the competition for the limited hunting grounds.
Apparently Koreans don't understand the power of increased kill speed, crowd control and debuffs. The 'Koreans don't have a problem with it' threads all boil down to how they just don't know any better then to realize that the game is broken. That they play a PVP game not to win but to play a pretty character. I guess that maybe Koreans are completely different in their mindset but that doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. It just means that Koreans apparently don't play to win and having seen some recent articles about how competitive they are in the Olympics I don't know how true that thesis could really be.
They have 33 servers with a highest concurrent user number of 119,345. That means that on average they have 3616 users per server at peak times.
US & Europe has 9 servers and a highest concurrent user base of 28,309. That means that on average there are 3,145 users per server at peak times.
That's hardly the difference that was advertised and its doubtful that they really shun mages due to that 13% difference.
torg even brought the mythos into consideration, and maybe we could agree that orcs are indeed almost unbeatable in 1vs1 when melee'd except by other orcs. IF we played classes and races as the lore cues to, we'd have an overpopulace of humans, followed by orcs, then LE then DE, with the ocassional dwarf mixed in.
The mythos says that the orcs are virtually unbeatable. The only reason they get defeated is that the elves, humans and dwarves (the only races that exist at the time) side against them. Their god is Paagrio, the god of fire, yet they have no real fire spells. The closest they get is a bleed.
The elves and the dark elves are locked in an aternal struggle and hate one another. This isn't enforced... they can freely enter each others towns and the guards don't even respond.
Humans are supposed to be individually weaker then all other races but in reality they are the most specialized and typically the strongest.
The dwarves supposedly have access to elite equipment that puts them on par with the other races. This isn't the case because they receive their grade masteries at the exact same level as everyone else and have access to the exact same gear and consumables as every other character. They're just inferior in combat period because the game doesn't actually support the justification given in the mythos.
I'm showing you that the developers didn't even follow the mythos that they've provided. Its almost as though the system, races and skills were designed in a vacuum and eventually the art department fleshed it all out with more concern for style then cohesiveness.