I heard Temple Knights own

is this correct?

Depends on your definition of it.

As far as tanks go they do, yes.

Namárië
Badger[49]

is this correct?

yes. Best pve tank in the game imo. They are also great at pvp with a bow... sure they don't do damage... but they might get mistaken for an archer and soak up a lot of dmg.

They're rare. That should tell you something. :)

is this correct?

No, you were decieved.

Is it true that TK have the highest self buffed mdef?

Lol... haha... guess what... Swordsingers are probably those with the highest selfbuffed mdef :)

I could laugh all day if it wouldn't be so sad.

Cal

I hate swordsingers. They cant tank what do they need mdef for? ****.

hint: the song is heard by the whole group :cool:

is this correct?

I am a L76+ noblesse TK, ill give you brief thoughts:

- Post 76 they get some very nice skills that improve their capability in pvp by a significant margin.
- Playing 1v1 with Hero Olympiad rules in the arena, I am beating a lot of classes, in fact since c4 ive only lost one match so far. Daggers, archers and even mages all go down against me, the classes that give TK issues are the other tanks and melee classes with higher HP values (hate Orcs!). But, discrete use of UD and Vengeance along with a bow can help
- People are really gonna be surprised when the Hero starts and they play against TKs, just how good they are, and tanks in general... only having self-buffs changes *everthing* about pvp in this game.. muhahaha...
- To get a TK to 75, its slow going for the most part - your damage output for a tank is very weak.
- Depending on the party it can very hard or sometimes impossible to hold hate as a TK, but all taks experience this, its just the crazy world of L2.

Kyo

Best tank in the game is a BH. Atleast when you put MP into recharging the BH, you are going to get more back than just another cast of Hate. In a good group, the Tank will be out of MP halfway through a buffset or sooner. I keep hate for the first 20 seconds or so with spoil, if it lives longer than that, you probably shouldnt be fighting it.

Spoil=Semi Hate+Moneymaker
Hate=Hate+...

Yup, BH tank FTW.

Classes without shield masteries - no tanks. Period.

Tanks > Meatshields

Namárië
Badger[49]

dwarven tanks are alright for normal, paced groups... a tank class with shield/sword and masteries + skills for shield is much better. speaking from a healer's point of view, dwarves are sometimes difficult to keep up in places a knight class functions fine :P

My dwarf duoing with an SE never need heals, and I meen NEVER :P so I duno what yeah talk about :P hard to keep up huh :)

My EE thoght have a bit harder time to keep my BH up sure just becose I want more spoil LOL, thoght I rarly need heal, all the shield buffs make up for the non excisting pasive shield skills, ahve far over 70% on my dwarf with my EE. Read my post about what shield buffs do in the game guide section btw.

A Bishop is a Dwarfs best friend when the dwarf is tanking. 30% Heals make all the difference. It makes things so much easier. 30% of my health is like double what he does with a normal heal(with an SWS Im over 10k HP). There are more benefits to having a BH Tank than thier are to a normal tank for regular hunting. Yes, Archers pull hate from me regardless of level, Gladiators tend to pull it if they have levels on me(My clan leader is a Glad in Light armor, she puts my damage output to shame and pulls hate often). We're not half bad in a regular party honestly.

is this correct?

I am a L76+ noblesse TK, ill give you brief thoughts:

- Post 76 they get some very nice skills that improve their capability in pvp by a significant margin.
- Playing 1v1 with Hero Olympiad rules in the arena, I am beating a lot of classes, in fact since c4 ive only lost one match so far. Daggers, archers and even mages all go down against me, the classes that give TK issues are the other tanks and melee classes with higher HP values (hate Orcs!). But, discrete use of UD and Vengeance along with a bow can help
- People are really gonna be surprised when the Hero starts and they play against TKs, just how good they are, and tanks in general... only having self-buffs changes *everthing* about pvp in this game.. muhahaha...
- To get a TK to 75, its slow going for the most part - your damage output for a tank is very weak.
- Depending on the party it can very hard or sometimes impossible to hold hate as a TK, but all taks experience this, its just the crazy world of L2.

Kyo



that was a pretty sick post
and im picky about that type of thing

thanks for the perspective on a non-****** who actually has the end game character people want to whine about, definately valuable information since u not only have one but pvp on it

and no im not being sarcastic

A Bishop is a Dwarfs best friend when the dwarf is tanking. 30% Heals make all the difference. It makes things so much easier. 30% of my health is like double what he does with a normal heal(with an SWS Im over 10k HP).

You greatly underestimate the value of Vampiric Rage lvl 3.

SE's rule when a BH is tanking.
Moreover they have DW, Guidance and Focus which will have your dmg output increase dramatically.. shorter time on killing, better XP, less heals with more output due to VR3... repeat...
And the SE will also recharge the BH ensuring his spoils.

Neither Bish nor EEs have a similar mix of offensive/defensive buffs for short range characters.

As for TKs they are indeed hard to take down. But they sure are a hell to level.

I hate swordsingers. They cant tank what do they need mdef for? ****.

Actually SwS is a very good tank when played properly and outside of AoE party :). I can tank better than many true tanks I have seen in this game

I hate swordsingers. They cant tank what do they need mdef for? ****.

Actually SwS is a very good tank when played properly and outside of AoE party :). I can tank better than many true tanks I have seen in this game



This is true, because most true tanks go pure HP setup. Most SwS go DD setup. Thus increasing the effect of VR and aggro holding capabilities. Shield and focus sword is a good combination for a SwS tank. (Hell my SwS has over 1k Patk buffed with dragon slayer, helps with VR and makes shield null, hehe).

I hate swordsingers. They cant tank what do they need mdef for? ****.

Actually SwS is a very good tank when played properly and outside of AoE party :). I can tank better than many true tanks I have seen in this game



This is true, because most true tanks go pure HP setup. Most SwS go DD setup. Thus increasing the effect of VR and aggro holding capabilities. Shield and focus sword is a good combination for a SwS tank. (Hell my SwS has over 1k Patk buffed with dragon slayer, helps with VR and makes shield null, hehe).



I love SWS's. As an archer they sing my crit rate to over 320! and they do a decent amount of damage as a secondary tank. Front-line meatshield isn't their specialty, isn't supposed to be thay are a support class. But as a well rounded fighter/support they are excellent..

Any TK's I have grouped with seem to do as well as any other tanks, except they seem to need more healer attention.

is this correct?

No, you were decieved.


My 62 TK would Spank you in PVP
=P no Bow needed

SE's rule when a BH is tanking.
Moreover they have DW, Guidance and Focus which will have your dmg output increase dramatically.. shorter time on killing, better XP, less heals with more output due to VR3... repeat...

Focus+DW only helps if dwarf whent for duals/twohander. Having blunt nulifues criticals. Going from something like 52 crit chance to 59 isn't much.

excuse the little BH. he has been deprived of VR dance + VR chant.

I'm not saing nothing about VR, i'm only talking about focus+DW, you you are excused ;)

is this correct?

No, you were decieved.


My 62 TK would Spank you in PVP
=P no Bow needed


The day i lose to a TK in pvp is the day the world comes to an end.

As a dwarf i would just like to add that yes we are not great at tankin. Yes lots of Hp but no hate is a real risk for mages/healers. only takes a split second for things to go badly. Also the less than great sheild and no UD also makes us second class tanks for raid bosses

But on the other hand, we can do tanking as can hold aggro with stun and spoil(BH) so it is possible. But me personally have gone for max damage output, +4str +4Dex -8Con tats.

dont forget bh = crappy p def theay got alot of life but theay take more damage also im a sk havent lost to a tk ... ever so i dounno about you saying tk's are sutch gods of pvp and pve

I hate swordsingers. They cant tank what do they need mdef for? [censored].

Actually SwS is a very good tank when played properly and outside of AoE party :). I can tank better than many true tanks I have seen in this game



This is true, because most true tanks go pure HP setup. Most SwS go DD setup. Thus increasing the effect of VR and aggro holding capabilities. Shield and focus sword is a good combination for a SwS tank. (Hell my SwS has over 1k Patk buffed with dragon slayer, helps with VR and makes shield null, hehe).



I love SWS's. As an archer they sing my crit rate to over 320! and they do a decent amount of damage as a secondary tank. Front-line meatshield isn't their specialty, isn't supposed to be thay are a support class. But as a well rounded fighter/support they are excellent..

Any TK's I have grouped with seem to do as well as any other tanks, except they seem to need more healer attention.



With a focus SA, crit buffs, +4 DEX, and Warlock buff I have 310 crit with a sword, lol. SwS are a class stuck between tank, DD, and buffer. They got a little of all but don't really specialize in any. When in most XP groups I only do 2 buffs I don't consider myself a buff specialist. It really bothers me when people say SwS are no kind of DD because of low strength. Apparantly people forgot about crit rate and attack speed and even accuracy to an extent. Sure an unbuffed SwS will never have a chance of putting out the same damage as a Gladiator in a 1 min span but with buffs (Death Whisper and Dance of Fire being THE buffs) we can match or exceed their damage output in a 1 min span at times simply because of fast and consistant crits that are like quadruple damage or more than what our basic damage does.

ive seen dwarvs 10 levels lower without there summons kiull sws's a asws has to be the most imp mele classin the game the only way it gets any kills is pure luck

dont forget bh = crappy p def theay got alot of life but theay take more damage also im a sk havent lost to a tk ... ever so i dounno about you saying tk's are sutch gods of pvp and pve

Get used to it then, because almost all of your skills are slow cast/attack, and have an easy-to-spot animation, so they are easily interrupted with shield bash. And when you are interrupted, you are taking 2-3 hits with a sword while you stand there and try to get out of the stun and retarget.

You'll be more forced to use standard sword swings to beat a TK.. and well, you don't have enough raw defensive power to do that.

The biggest thing is touch of life tho - its effects have been confirmed as follows:

Touch of Life 1 (Sacrifice 1612HP to Perform a Very Large Heal on Self/Target, and obtain the following 1Min Buffs: HPRegen 104/tic, Resist Debuff/Cancel+, HealEffect+)

So in other other words, if you fight a TK, you will be fighting them twice, because all my 6000HP in the match is going to be healed back again once I get low and use ToL. Touch of Death is 100% owned by Touch of Life in a situation like the Olympiad.

Its always a good match, but SKs who continually try and use their skills even tho they know they are going to be interrupted will always lose to a TK, and even if they dont, they have to beat someone who effectively has 12,000HP.

That's gonna take serious beating for an SK.

Kyo

ive seen dwarvs 10 levels lower without there summons kiull sws's a asws has to be the most imp mele classin the game the only way it gets any kills is pure luck

Ever heard of spellcheck?

I hate swordsingers. They cant tank what do they need mdef for? [censored].

Actually SwS is a very good tank when played properly and outside of AoE party :). I can tank better than many true tanks I have seen in this game



This is true, because most true tanks go pure HP setup. Most SwS go DD setup. Thus increasing the effect of VR and aggro holding capabilities. Shield and focus sword is a good combination for a SwS tank. (Hell my SwS has over 1k Patk buffed with dragon slayer, helps with VR and makes shield null, hehe).



I love SWS's. As an archer they sing my crit rate to over 320! and they do a decent amount of damage as a secondary tank. Front-line meatshield isn't their specialty, isn't supposed to be thay are a support class. But as a well rounded fighter/support they are excellent..

Any TK's I have grouped with seem to do as well as any other tanks, except they seem to need more healer attention.



With a focus SA, crit buffs, +4 DEX, and Warlock buff I have 310 crit with a sword, lol. SwS are a class stuck between tank, DD, and buffer. They got a little of all but don't really specialize in any. When in most XP groups I only do 2 buffs I don't consider myself a buff specialist. It really bothers me when people say SwS are no kind of DD because of low strength. Apparantly people forgot about crit rate and attack speed and even accuracy to an extent. Sure an unbuffed SwS will never have a chance of putting out the same damage as a Gladiator in a 1 min span but with buffs (Death Whisper and Dance of Fire being THE buffs) we can match or exceed their damage output in a 1 min span at times simply because of fast and consistant crits that are like quadruple damage or more than what our basic damage does.


Unbuffed a glad owns a SwS, with buffs a glad still owns a SwS, no matter what a SwS does it wont beat a glad. Even using a bow i still out dmg them using my range. I can throw down a TSS and thats more damage then you can do in 1 minute of laying it on me.

I hate swordsingers. They cant tank what do they need mdef for? [censored].

Actually SwS is a very good tank when played properly and outside of AoE party :). I can tank better than many true tanks I have seen in this game



This is true, because most true tanks go pure HP setup. Most SwS go DD setup. Thus increasing the effect of VR and aggro holding capabilities. Shield and focus sword is a good combination for a SwS tank. (Hell my SwS has over 1k Patk buffed with dragon slayer, helps with VR and makes shield null, hehe).



I love SWS's. As an archer they sing my crit rate to over 320! and they do a decent amount of damage as a secondary tank. Front-line meatshield isn't their specialty, isn't supposed to be thay are a support class. But as a well rounded fighter/support they are excellent..

Any TK's I have grouped with seem to do as well as any other tanks, except they seem to need more healer attention.



With a focus SA, crit buffs, +4 DEX, and Warlock buff I have 310 crit with a sword, lol. SwS are a class stuck between tank, DD, and buffer. They got a little of all but don't really specialize in any. When in most XP groups I only do 2 buffs I don't consider myself a buff specialist. It really bothers me when people say SwS are no kind of DD because of low strength. Apparantly people forgot about crit rate and attack speed and even accuracy to an extent. Sure an unbuffed SwS will never have a chance of putting out the same damage as a Gladiator in a 1 min span but with buffs (Death Whisper and Dance of Fire being THE buffs) we can match or exceed their damage output in a 1 min span at times simply because of fast and consistant crits that are like quadruple damage or more than what our basic damage does.


Unbuffed a glad owns a SwS, with buffs a glad still owns a SwS, no matter what a SwS does it wont beat a glad. Even using a bow i still out dmg them using my range. I can throw down a TSS and thats more damage then you can do in 1 minute of laying it on me.



Simply not true, if SwS kites a glad he has no chance unless he has a bow himself. Even then Gladiators don't have the natural crit rate or accuracy to use one effectively. TSS does about 1k damage if not blocked or crit blocked, I can pull that damage on a Gladiator in 3 shots of a bow no problem. I don't know what nublet SwS you been fighting but smart ones will kite you unless they know u are much lower lvl or lower lvl equipment. I'm sorry but 196-203 self buffed speed vs. whatever a glad has while Entangled, a Gladiator WILL NOT reach the SwS unless they allow it or Gladiator has support (someone to sleep/root/slow/stun shot/etc).

And about the Dwarf, lol. Same thing. SwS could kite a dwarf all [censored] day if need be. A dwarf can use a bow too but he is simply not going to be effective with it. The only time a Gladiator or Dwarf could beat a SwS is if the SwS allows it or they have support. SwS don't use a bow just because they can, they use it because they can be effective with them due to naturally (and self buffed) critical rate, accuracy, and run speed along with a slowing debuff.

is this correct?

No, you were decieved.


My 62 TK would Spank you in PVP
=P no Bow needed


The day i lose to a TK in pvp is the day the world comes to an end.



Only Selfbuffed/W cubics I'd Pwn you with 2k hp left
believe it punk ^.^
Shield block +++ 1200 P -def 540 P atk + <depends on jewls> 200-350 from Storm cubic = My 62 TK eats you alive

I'm a level 75 TK. I can't recommend the class to anyone, even a player who plans to take it "all the way". Yes, I do fine in 1vs1s. I expect to be able to defeat most melee classes and archers in the olympiad if I ever get to noblesse. People don't seem to understand just how much damage reduction a TK has; I am almost always hitting people back for twice the damage they do to me. Not because I have a high patk (it's only 700ish) but because Guard Stance and Shield Fortress give me a ridiculous pdef. A level 74 skill set TH DBs me for around 540 and a level 74 skill set glad TSS's for about 640 I think. That means so little when I can crit most people back for 200-300s.

Without comparing it to the other knights, TK is very weak but very capable of taking physical (not magical!) hits. They are almost unacceptable as a damage dealer unless you go out of your way to be one - by using tallum heavy or blue wolf and absolutely NOT using a blunt. A lot of TKs though strip away all of their damage dealing capabilities to stress HP and dex, which cripples their position as a damage dealer. But the primary role of a TK will always be as a knight, or a tank. So why not compare TK to the other knights?

What makes TK such a terrible class is just that every other tank (except maybe Paladin, which you could argue for days over which is more gimp) has any capability you could want in TK but they do it better. If you want a true meatshield, DA is not only capable of more HP, but they have more pdef in general because majesty uses no mp after you cast it. TK's skill for pdef, guard stance, uses so many MP that you simply cant use it much. DAs and paladins end up being better for damage reduction and they also have a shield stun. And before you mention the level 77 skill, Shield Slam, it isn't a real shield stun. What it does is cancel the target's action. Stun itself is one of the more useful pvp skills for a tank.

On the other end of the spectrum is SK. The biggest thing about SK is that they have every single important skill TK has, and more. If you want cubics, SK is better. SK's cubics are somewhat useful - phantom cubic fires often and costs very little to summon. The other two...not so much. TK's cubics are useless in pvm and costly in pvp; Storm does very little damage and isn't very worthwhile outside of 1vs1. Life Cubic can't be relied on for anything and heals so little even at its max level. In pvp, it takes so long before it refires (if! it even does) that it's not worthwhile unless you can entangle and run for 5+ minutes without being hit, waiting on the cubic to heal you (obviously, something that only happens in the arena and will happen in the grand olympiad). SK is perfectly capable of the exact same damage reduction as a TK, except that they can also power break whoever is hitting them, taking even less damage. They have hex which is more effective in pvm parties because it makes the whole party kill much faster. They do better damage which in general makes tham a faster leveling class if you're the small party/solo type. They can equip themselves for pvp much more easily thana TK can because unlike TK, they actually have useful skills for pvp in their multitude of nukes, hex, power break and damage over time skills. A HP-rigged SK actually takes longer than a HP rigged TK to kill if the SK uses Guard Stance, shield fortress and drains.

Bragging about TK mdef is a joke. The only nuker that even seems to come close to having a problem with TK is Spellhowler, but that is only if the TK is right on top of the SH from the very start. Any nuker can easily hit a TK by surrendering it for well over 1k, even so much as 1500 by level 75. Did you know that TK's "high" mdef is actually only 100 more than a plainswalker of the same level and jewelry at level 75?

So overall: TK is not a great class. What they supposedly excel at is being the "best pvm tank", but this isn't really true. The other three tanks do the job just as well. TKs completely lack in pvp, except in 1vs1. In 1vs1 you will probably lose or be very low on HP by the time the TK dies ~unless~ you are a nuker.

So overall: TK is not a great class. What they supposedly excel at is being the "best pvm tank", but this isn't really true. The other three tanks do the job just as well. TKs completely lack in pvp, except in 1vs1. In 1vs1 you will probably lose or be very low on HP by the time the TK dies ~unless~ you are a nuker.

I respect your opinion, and many of your points are valid, some areas I disagree with you tho - it is something that is easier to see if you play more than one class of tank (which I do). Some points:

- the TK becomes a fully pvp capable class at L78 - at L77 they get shield bash which makes a large difference to pvp capability, and I would much rather take that skill than stun, because it does three things: removes the target's target 100%, stuns for 1 second 100%, and instantly interrupts any magical/physical skill 100%. This is incredibly important in pvp, it gives the TK a level of protection they never had for the previous 76 levels. Once they get to L78, touch of life and magical mirror make even a bigger difference, providing massive healing/protection against debuffs. This is important to a TK because all they can really do is strive to get close to an opponent for standard attacks with a sword, so being slowed or cancelled is usually death for a TK against many classes.

- Because of post 76 skills, TKs no longer "completely lack" in pvp outside of 1v1. If you dont target a tank, good luck getting songs, dances, nukes, etc etc off, because if a TK is on top of you, your going to be interrupted and lose your target all the time. Furthermore, your target wont die easily because they are going to get touch of life heals when needed.

- The new holy armor toggle skill is unbelievably good for pallys/tks, it reduces darkness damage/effects substantially, and many mobs in this game use darkness attacks. It makes fighting necros less painful too, always a bonus. All that for no MP cost, just leave it on all the time...

- On the issue of stun - this might sounds strange, and im certainly not saying in theory this should be a factor, but... the reality is on every N/A server there will basically only really be 1 or 2 TKs that are going to get to the Hero tourney for what might be years of time. So, if your that worried about stun, take the infinity axe which chance stuns the target on every crit, and the chance is high. This 100% owns normal stun in PvE, because I don't see any tanks regularly using stun as a PvE tactic because its hard enough as is to keep hate and manage your MP levels at the same time without draining more MP to stun. Of course, only one TK can have it, but its a fun thought anyway ;)

- TKs still have higher base mdef capability than other tanks, even tho by a small margin, and even tho relative differences in mdef in this game between tanks do not really count for much anyway, unless in self-buffed Olympiad where it makes a bigger difference.

- 1v1 TKs will get smoked against most classes at your level, I dont know who you have been playing in PvP matches but TKs below L77 are useless against anything but archers and daggers. Mages, summoners, other tanks, well put together tyrants/glads, and even dwarfs will beat a TK easily. TKs need L77 and L78 to be strong pvp contenders.

- No tanks are DD in this game, comparitively speaking. True DD classes will always totally outstrip a tank. The aim for tanks in PvE is to use hate and try to contribute as much damage as possible to hold hate - without running out of mp, although this is usually a futile undertaking due to the imbalance of damage versus defence in L2. Yes, TKs dont do much PvE damage, but nor do any of the tank classes with the minor exception of an SK, but even then its minor - if setup properly with a focus weapon, a TK's high dex means they crit considerably more than other tank classes which helps with contributing damage.

- Level of HP have very little to do with PvE tanking ability in L2, with VR and any type of healer your HP will rarely be an issue.

- Life cubic is great, we run parties daily at Hot Springs, Varkas Silenos etc that dont need a healer at all, out of group VR and life cubic is enough to keep things stable across long PVE sessions. You put any other type of tank in there and that would be *impossible* - the same goes for soloing, smaller groups, etc. Life cubic is useful, albeit inconsistent.

- You miss a major benefit of TKs which is their shield block rate via their high dex, this makes a substantial difference to a TKs defensive capability. A DA might have 150 or so more pdef with majesty for exmaple, but with the right setup (DC heavy, Doom, or use of shield fortress) a TK is getting shield pdef factored into almost every singe piece of physical damage taken, which is much greater overall pdef than a DA will ever have.

If I was going to argue anything, I would argue that all tanks in L2 are crap, and almost completely not required, outside of a minor role in Imperial Tomb respawn rooms, for tanking raid bosses, and definitely needed in Forge of Gods. They used to have a cruciual role in AoE, but even that got nerfed to the point where its not really viable anymore. Tanks really are that useless, I hope for C5 they go down the path they took with Forge of Gods and implement hunting spots where your group will likely get owned if you dont have a tank.

Kyo

Gladiators do not lose to tanks, i can beat TK's ive done it so many times and am yet to lose to one. They have high p def and its annoying but i out last them because of my higher damage out put and massive hp/cp.
As for not being able to beat SwS. Just shut up man, i dont even need TSS to kill you, i have sonic blaster which does a bit less then TSS but i can spam it quickly and also throw down my AoE distance move inbetween charging. I dont want to toot my own horn, actually i do, but i am experianced in PvP more then most, i chose gladiator for a reason. My whole lineage2 experiance is based around pvp'ing others, its what i play lineage for. PvE is just a method to be stronger at pvp for me.
The guy who has the lvl 62 TK, if your on Bartz i would gladly pvp you and hand your *** to you on a plate ^^

Yeah, own that POS TK.

TK FTL
SWS FTL

Light elf knights are losers!!!

- 1v1 TKs will get smoked against most classes at your level, I dont know who you have been playing in PvP matches but TKs below L77 are useless against anything but archers and daggers. Mages, summoners, other tanks, well put together tyrants/glads, and even dwarfs will beat a TK easily. TKs need L77 and L78 to be strong pvp contenders.

How is your TK built? HP rigged? Dex too? Or do you have the +4 str -4 con setup? I've had a lot of success thus far using +str and a dark legion's edge with health. I won't always win but no one ever gets away without being pretty low..except nukers of course. (I usually beat glads thx to entangle mostly)

- Life cubic is great, we run parties daily at Hot Springs, Varkas Silenos etc that dont need a healer at all, out of group VR and life cubic is enough to keep things stable across long PVE sessions. You put any other type of tank in there and that would be *impossible* - the same goes for soloing, smaller groups, etc. Life cubic is useful, albeit inconsistent.

I've done such a group before. But usually (and especially because I box a prophet and a friend boxes an SE), heals are a nonfactor anyway. It's this way with most groups.

- You miss a major benefit of TKs which is their shield block rate via their high dex, this makes a substantial difference to a TKs defensive capability. A DA might have 150 or so more pdef with majesty for exmaple, but with the right setup (DC heavy, Doom, or use of shield fortress) a TK is getting shield pdef factored into almost every singe piece of physical damage taken, which is much greater overall pdef than a DA will ever have.

I've tried changing my dex to see how much difference dex made to shield block rate. I know it doesn't make much difference at all. It's around 1% per point of dex. This isn't a major benefit imo; it's a minor one.

If I was going to argue anything, I would argue that all tanks in L2 are crap, and almost completely not required, outside of a minor role in Imperial Tomb respawn rooms, for tanking raid bosses, and definitely needed in Forge of Gods. They used to have a cruciual role in AoE, but even that got nerfed to the point where its not really viable anymore. Tanks really are that useless, I hope for C5 they go down the path they took with Forge of Gods and implement hunting spots where your group will likely get owned if you dont have a tank.

/AGREE ;-; Well, I wish I shared your enthusiasm for TK. If you look at the 76+ skills though - we may as well say 77+ as 76 is a useless level lol - you might notice SK has all of the same skills with only one difference, the nuke versus ToL.

Do you have shield slam yet? Is it really 100%? Because for the human knight one, this DA in the arena was complaining about how it wouldn't even land on a level 4 dwarf. x.x That truly is one advantage TK/SK has over humans if the stun does land 100%.

Sometimes I come off as offensive. If that happened sorry, I'm just trying to strike up a conversation with another TK who thinks differently than I do. X_x

Yeah, own that POS TK.

TK FTL
SWS FTL

Light elf knights are losers!!!

You have a lot of issues...

How is your TK built? HP rigged? Dex too? Or do you have the +4 str -4 con setup? I've had a lot of success thus far using +str and a dark legion's edge with health. I won't always win but no one ever gets away without being pretty low..except nukers of course. (I usually beat glads thx to entangle mostly)

Aye, I use the following setups depending on the situation:

General tat setup: +4 con / -4 str

I played with many different tat setups, but sadly im constrained by the Olympiad where I need all the HP and defence I can get (TKs have to play really defensively and try to outlast), otherwise I would consider going +4str/-4con for PvE benefit.

- For PvE where tanking is hardly a factor (mainly just pulling/holding aggro/doing as much damage as possible): NM set, +8Dama/focus
- For PvE where raw tanking is more important (IT, Forge of Gods, AoE): DC set, +4 DLE/health

- For open PvP, NM set to get protection against sleep and root, +4DLE/Health. More important that I stay alive and use ToL, entangle and shield bash to annoy targets, rather than try to kill anything.
- For 1v1 PvP (hero tourney) NM/+4DLE against mages, DC/+4DLE against all else

Once Imperial Heavy becomes viable, I will sell my a-grade sets and use that exclusively as it gives a little extra pdef, the +440HP and most importantly sleep/hold resistance, and give up the DC set +18% shield block rate.

And for SPS, the glad above who posted about his success in PvP versus tanks - its not 100% that glads beat a TK, it often depends on their build and the match rules. Self-buffed in real, balanced PvP rules (hero tourney-style), I beat most glads because I can run with 1600 pdef for 2/3 of the match. And that doesnt include having two 30 second Ultimate Defences either which I generally dont use for practice matches. And that also doesn't include having ToL where I can almost totally heal myself from low HP, and get a 1min buff that regens HP at 100/tic!

So yeah, TKs are very well suited to beating Glads in balanced PvP.

I've done such a group before. But usually (and especially because I box a prophet and a friend boxes an SE), heals are a nonfactor anyway. It's this way with most groups.

Yep for sure, It was more a situational thing, I've just found it handy to have self/party heals from a life cubic when no healer is there to box. I live in Australia so I have a weird timezone, so there are often not a lot of healers on at that time.

I've tried changing my dex to see how much difference dex made to shield block rate. I know it doesn't make much difference at all. It's around 1% per point of dex. This isn't a major benefit imo; it's a minor one.

The point I was making was about relatively to other tank classes, not so much changes in dex on a TK, because they are already have such a high dex that any further changes aren't going to make noticeable changes. For tanks with less dex, its scales down quite a lot.

I have a high level DA too, and from using them both, the TK blocks around about 25% more than the DA. With shield fortress on, which is a nice toggle buff because its low MP drain, its basically 90+% block rate, which is fantastic, particularly when fighting physical mobs and other tanks/summons in PvP. Dex is a factor that is overlooked by almost all tanks, but it's one of those factors that actually makes a noticable difference over time, one that can be easily seen by testing damage taken with and without the block.

/AGREE ;-; Well, I wish I shared your enthusiasm for TK. If you look at the 76+ skills though - we may as well say 77+ as 76 is a useless level lol - you might notice SK has all of the same skills with only one difference, the nuke versus ToL.

Do you have shield slam yet? Is it really 100%? Because for the human knight one, this DA in the arena was complaining about how it wouldn't even land on a level 4 dwarf. x.x That truly is one advantage TK/SK has over humans if the stun does land 100%.

Hmm, I've never been a big fan of SK's, so I guess the comparison between them is not something I think about much. They have the lowest con, hp of all tanks by a reasonable margin, so what they get in offence is probably justified. But in the end, they are considered the weakest tanks, its just that in L2 it isn't as noticeable because of the limited role of the tank class.

Perhaps most of all tho, ToD is not as useful as ToD, ToL is one of the best skills in the game - TKs and Pally's really got a nice boost with that. ToD can only be used at 25% HP, and for many situations it doesnt help, for example in Olympiad its effects are not as useful given it can only be used at 25%HP or less. ToL on the other hand is incredible in almost every situation, even for PvE it is beneficial (raid bosses, in a pinch, etc). Add to that Magical Mirror and Shield Slam (which yep has very fast speed/reuse and very high land rates), and TKs get a lot of boosting from 77-78, possibly more than any other class.

I think that in later Chrons, and in places like forge of the gods, the relative differences between the tanks will become more pronounced.

One interesting point is that I chose a sorc as my sub, so if I feel the need to deal damage, I just switch. SO I'm possibly more happy than most TK's in that I get an overall balance of playstyles, and am happy to play more defensively in both PvE and PvP.

Kyo

Hmm....

Well, on the str vs con thing. You've got to realize -str cripples your patk. A health SA doesn't...and neither does nm heavy. When you have 5k HP with 2k CP and 700 patk, is 6k HP with 2.2k CP and 500 patk really better? I don't really believe that. Especially with the damage reduction we have; I view it as a time limit I have to kill my target - the faster I kill them while taking very little damage, the better. Probably dragging that out too much but you shouldn't think in terms of extremes - getting the most HP or getting the most patk. When you're the only person dealing damage to your target and you have zero damage skills to use, patk matters very much.

I actually can't even afford a full a grade armor set and my DLE is still +0 heh. I'll switch between doom heavy and bw heavy depending but I really want to get both nightmare and tallum heavy. Doom works very well because a little pdef (as in A grade) doesn't make much difference since neither guard stance nor shield fortress work on %s. I get the same pdef from those skills minus maybe 50 pdef difference between nm and doom. On the other hand I get about 1k HP at the loss of a little over 100 patk. It works out well when I can make my opponent run out of mp, but otherwise I'll use bw and play "kill them before they kill me". I want to get a critical bleed carnage for fighting other tanks, glads, etc too.

I'm not really sure why you would consider SK the weakest tank. I guess our p.o.v.'s are totally different on what makes a good tank. CON is pretty irrelevant in pvp imo because I'm not a high priority target. Again, the +str works well for me in 1vs1s. What I'm getting at is that the skills SKs have make them probably the best tank. Hex especially for pvm, and they have almost every option a TK has and more in pvp. Yeah they lack an amazing 4 con from TK but it doesn't really make much difference.

Did your DA block rate come from using the 360* block skill? Because all DAs I have ever spoken to say they block almost every time with bless shield.

Well I don't make plans regarding future skills. They are almost always dissapointments. Maybe if we're lucky wisdom+nm heavy+ToL+MM will make us able to kill nukers in the olympiad? Haha yeah right. >_<

Lol... haha... guess what... Swordsingers are probably those with the highest selfbuffed mdef :)

I could laugh all day if it wouldn't be so sad.

Cal

Warcryers have the highest self buffed m.def. Highest men and a chant to raise m.def and boost m.def skill. A WC m.def is like a top tanks p.def.

Hmm....

Well, on the str vs con thing. You've got to realize -str cripples your patk. A health SA doesn't...and neither does nm heavy. When you have 5k HP with 2k CP and 700 patk, is 6k HP with 2.2k CP and 500 patk really better? I don't really believe that. Especially with the damage reduction we have; I view it as a time limit I have to kill my target - the faster I kill them while taking very little damage, the better. Probably dragging that out too much but you shouldn't think in terms of extremes - getting the most HP or getting the most patk. When you're the only person dealing damage to your target and you have zero damage skills to use, patk matters very much.

I actually can't even afford a full a grade armor set and my DLE is still +0 heh. I'll switch between doom heavy and bw heavy depending but I really want to get both nightmare and tallum heavy. Doom works very well because a little pdef (as in A grade) doesn't make much difference since neither guard stance nor shield fortress work on %s. I get the same pdef from those skills minus maybe 50 pdef difference between nm and doom. On the other hand I get about 1k HP at the loss of a little over 100 patk. It works out well when I can make my opponent run out of mp, but otherwise I'll use bw and play "kill them before they kill me". I want to get a critical bleed carnage for fighting other tanks, glads, etc too.

I'm not really sure why you would consider SK the weakest tank. I guess our p.o.v.'s are totally different on what makes a good tank. CON is pretty irrelevant in pvp imo because I'm not a high priority target. Again, the +str works well for me in 1vs1s. What I'm getting at is that the skills SKs have make them probably the best tank. Hex especially for pvm, and they have almost every option a TK has and more in pvp. Yeah they lack an amazing 4 con from TK but it doesn't really make much difference.

Did your DA block rate come from using the 360* block skill? Because all DAs I have ever spoken to say they block almost every time with bless shield.

Well I don't make plans regarding future skills. They are almost always dissapointments. Maybe if we're lucky wisdom+nm heavy+ToL+MM will make us able to kill nukers in the olympiad? Haha yeah right. >_<

Eek dont have time for a full response, but for what its worth, first day of the Olympiad I had more wins than any other class playing.

Only lost one match in the two hours I played, to an ST. Beat mages with a lotta difficulty, but duelists and any dagger and archer went down easy.

A lotta people really schocked at how well an ET did, they get very nice skills for pvp 76+.

Kyo

I smell BS.

I smell BS.

Forgot to use toilet paper?

You're not even 2nd job yet and question someone who actually went to the olympiad. Really weird. If you don't like elven knights then just don't open the topic maybe?

Namárië
Badger[49]

It's BS. I logged in last night to try to watch this "olympiad" and there wasn't even a single fight all night on Bartz. So, I find it hard to believe some TK is going around owning everyone as has been said.

I smell BS.

Forgot to use toilet paper?

You're not even 2nd job yet and question someone who actually went to the olympiad. Really weird. If you don't like elven knights then just don't open the topic maybe?

Namárië
Badger[49]



He Lives in Texas... He doesn't know any better.

And for SPS, the glad above who posted about his success in PvP versus tanks - its not 100% that glads beat a TK, it often depends on their build and the match rules. Self-buffed in real, balanced PvP rules (hero tourney-style), I beat most glads because I can run with 1600 pdef for 2/3 of the match. And that doesnt include having two 30 second Ultimate Defences either which I generally dont use for practice matches. And that also doesn't include having ToL where I can almost totally heal myself from low HP, and get a 1min buff that regens HP at 100/tic!

Your either wrong or all the tanks ive foguth in olympiad are mentally handicapped. They only ever used UD, not the new hate built in-one, that was never used in any matches ive seen, ever. When ever i saw them hit UD i just took a few spaces back out of range and hit relax anyway, and if i saw them casting self-heal shot them with a bow to cancel it. As for the healing skill you talk about, i also have never had that used against me in all of the fights ive had vs TK. If this is a lvl 78 skill then you must allow me to talk about sonic rage, a gladiators BEST friend.

I smell BS.

Forgot to use toilet paper?

You're not even 2nd job yet and question someone who actually went to the olympiad. Really weird. If you don't like elven knights then just don't open the topic maybe?

Namárië
Badger[49]



He Lives in Texas... He doesn't know any better.



Oh well why wasn't that explained before? I was actually going to take 5 minutes to retort to his foolish comments. :)

It's BS. I logged in last night to try to watch this "olympiad" and there wasn't even a single fight all night on Bartz. So, I find it hard to believe some TK is going around owning everyone as has been said.

There wasn't a single fight on Lionna either the second day. I think the feeling is universal among noblesse - once you played in the olympiad, you realize just how important it is to obtain 76+ skills, and everyone just knuckles down now and for the most part grinds toward it. Of course existing commitments (clan, open pvp, sieges, etc) also take away from people ability to play each day, so maybe the weekends will be more a time for the Olympiad.

I think the Olympiad will be at its best in future chronicles, when many people will be able to play - to that end, maybe they should open some kind of tournament for classes that haven't made noblesse yet, that would be awesome imo :)

Here is a screenshot I took of my first day points total - I started with 18 points and finished with 65, won many matches to get to that point, if I didn't lose that last match to the SK, it would have been higher, because he took 6 points off me >.>

Eva's Templar Olympiad Points (http://files.filefront.com/Shot00219bmp/;4834811;;/fileinfo.html)

It's just a matter of knowing how to build and play your TK, it makes all the difference in the world - some matches require more tactics than others, but in general TKs are a good PvP class.

Addendum for SPS: I read your post, if you want to believe me you can, if not, it's also fine. I tinkered with my setup against glads, and have definitely found the one that lets me beat them 100% of the time now. If you dont believe me, make an alt on Lionna, and come watch the matches, ideally on the weekend if noblesse will play. But I don't make this stuff up, I had glads actually trying to avoid registering at the same as me, because beating them was basically a matter of mathematics, so they were losing all their points to me which is risky because once your at 0, you can't play anymore.


Kyo

I think people severely underrate Elven knight classes. Elven Elder buffs do make just about anyone block very time. Im a SwS and with Blessed shield 6 and advanced block 2 I'd say I block 90% of the hits. Also in a 2 minute period its almost GAURANTEED that we will have a critical block or two, which always seems to happen at the worst time for enemies :) like when they use specials or land critical attacks. And its hard to cancel a heal. When I UD and people run I shoot em with my bow until they are out of range and then heal and RARELY have they ever cancelled my heal, anything short of stun just doesn't cancel a TK/SwS self heal often. Also I think people ignore some racial skills that classes get. Like Evlen Fighters have +10 run speed or something like that, also Orcs have some strength bonus so even with the exact same STR stat # and weapon they can actually have more patk than say a human. I wouldn't be surprised if Elves also got a shield block race bonus.

Also SwS DO have best self buffed mdef, however OL and WC have best mdef IF they have Song of Warding. Im lvl 76 with Black Ore jewelery (lol, I'm skipping A grade and moving on to S and am still working on it) and I got about 1100 mdef and thats with B GRADE, and WC also do not have UD so they REALLY cannot have the best self buffed mdef, its foolish to even think that. Also the magic resistance that SwS have doesn't all come from high MEN for a fighter, mdef passives or self buffed Spirit Barrier and Song of Warding. There is also Song of Invocation, Flame Guard, and Storm Guard which are more potent than people give them credit for.

About fighting Gladiators, I cannot say I have fought many but even the ones that just blasted me with their range skills couldn't even beat me. The only times a Gladiator has come close to beating me 1v1 is when I decide to go toe-to-toe, which trust me, lol, I will NEVER do if I feel they are going to beat me. I'm not saying a Gladiator cannot beat a SwS in 1v1, its just that SwS can beat them and if need be could just high tail it out of there if there is chance of defeat. People underestimate critical attacks which I would say SwS critical 1/4 to 1/3 of the time with a bow or Focus SA sword and its not like we are going to miss Gladiators that much, lol.

*.JPG ftw !!!

3.5 MB pics ftl !!

OT: nice score :)