I’m going to try to make this as short as possible for the benefit of getting my point across:
I feel (as do many others) that the integrity and ability for the average Gustin GM to do their job efficiently and properly is non existent to paying customers. Therefore, I create this thread as a petition for the re-elvaluation of all Gustin GM’s, because in the public eye, they have failed to support and keep most Gustin people happy. Of course NCSoft after all, it is all about the customer… isn’t it? Which brings me to this all so important question that has never seemed to get answered;
- Why is noone… not even phone support able to contact technical support on account suspensions.. after all its OUR account.. and OUR civil right to know why and what goes on to our account (showing logs of our own account)
- Why are the GM’s so blind as to ban legit players.. yet keep the 100 farmers on third party programs farming raid bosses in game?
- Keep in Mind… I am aiming this at in game GM’s… not board GM’s
I’m going to try to make this as short as possible for the benefit of getting my point across:
I feel (as do many others) that the integrity and ability for the average Gustin GM to do their job efficiently and properly is non existent to paying customers. Therefore, I create this thread as a petition for the re-elvaluation of all Gustin GM’s, because in the public eye, they have failed to support and keep most Gustin people happy. Of course NCSoft after all, it is all about the customer… isn’t it? Which brings me to this all so important question that has never seemed to get answered;
- Why is noone… not even phone support able to contact technical support on account suspensions.. after all its OUR account.. and OUR civil right to know why and what goes on to our account (showing logs of our own account)
- Why are the GM’s so blind as to ban legit players.. yet keep the 100 farmers on third party programs farming raid bosses in game?
- Keep in Mind… I am aiming this at in game GM’s… not board GM’s
Please keep this flame free, Thanks!
Continuing on...flame free.
I think you state a reasonable case, and clearly there is no log review being done to seek out playstyles or transfer of adena that would ferret out players defying the EULA.
Would people volunteer to be a member of a Player's Council, who would help NCSoft understand the play styles that are of legitimate concern, as well as actually help write the scripting logic to help identify them in the application logs?
It's like when cops give you speeding tickets. They don't have to show you the radar (most don't) to give you the ticket. Their say against yours.
Cops need probabal cause to do anything... if they pull you over without evidence of probabal cause... well you will smoke them in court because of violation of civil rights.
Sorry man, this is the second time you have brought up civil rights and I think you are heading the wrong direction if you keep on that.
You have no civil rights regarding what a company can or cannot sell you as long as it isnt based on race, age, religion etc or breaking a law by them doing so.
You know I'd like to keep this flame free, but I'm really getting tired of the subject being brought up.
For starters, your account does not belong to you, it belongs to them. You pay them a monthly fee in order to use their account. They can revoke that privilage anytime they want for any reason they want, and you click yes agreeing to it every time you log into the game.
When you click yes, you agree not to cheat. So if you do cheat, they may at their discretion ban you from playing their game on their servers with their account.
Everyone is screaming an yelling that they were innocent, and that's great, if the people are innocent they will get their accounts back. We've seen it happen before. Actually, considering all of the bans that go on, it's pretty rare that innocent people get banned, but even then, on more than one occasion people have been unbanned when they were found to be innocent.
IMO the GM's on Gustin biggest shortcoming is that they don't ban the cheaters faster and sooner. Then, maybe people would realize that if they cheat they will lose thier account.
Then again Bighands you have no way to make that judgement either... since i cant directly name the person who got banned or this thread will get locked... "person A" i know for a fact is playing legit when he gets banned for apparently to a "GM" for botting.. i mean seriously.. what kind of BS is this? 2 years of hard work woot bye bye thanks to some hot head GM!
And the whole fact that you cant even talk to technical support on the phone!! GG with service!
Exactly duke.. There's no proof either way that they were innocent or that they were guilty.
NCsoft doesn't have to tell you one way or the other, because if they present evidence they give crackers a chance to beat their software.
Theres no way of telling, sure they could be innocent but there's just as big of a chance of them just lying to get unbanned. I feel for the guys, I really do, but something tells me NCsoft has their [censored] down pat. And GM's have played the game and know the mechanics, or they would just be hired to sit at a computer and sleep.
But hey, this is pure speculation on my part and no disrespect to the banned players and the people supporting them. It's definately a loss to the server, no doubt.
Edit : I'd also like to add that the gm's can ban for whatever infraction WHENEVER, so maybe someone's past caught up to him/her a little too late?
There is a phone number available for Billing and Technical Support issues; we ask that all other issues and questions be addressed through the Support web site.
False reporting: False reporting of bots has always happened. This is something we are quite aware of. This is one of the reasons that bot banning is not instant. We take account termination very seriously and do not want a loyal customer banned. I have seen some discussions where customers are afraid that they could be mistaken for a bot just for playing normally. This will never happen. As long as you play this game as it was intended you will not be removed from service. I have also seen discussions where a customer was reported several times (falsely) and had their game play was interfered with because of a GM test. Some of our tests are invasive I will admit. I am working on changing that as long as it does not sacrifice our service. In a perfect world you should never have to speak to a GM.
Please keep this thread constructive, and not turn it into another thread about specific account bannings, or unfortunately I will have to close it. Thank you!
For starters, your account does not belong to you, it belongs to them. You pay them a monthly fee in order to use their account. They can revoke that privilage anytime they want for any reason they want, and you click yes agreeing to it every time you log into the game.
What the boss said :D
May not be equitable, but its their right. The only say we have is with our wallets (unless its outright negligence or their actions are proven fraudulent, then we are in the legal realm).
Now smart and successful corporations listen very carefully to their client base. That is how they stay successful. Now whether that is the case with NCSoft, the jury is still out.
Not gonna stir up [censored] or nothing but I do agree that the termination of people's accounts for such vague reasons without any evidence on the table is questionable and makes people wonder.
Even though the GM's dont have to give you evidence, it's a nice thought...
It's like when cops give you speeding tickets. They don't have to show you the radar (most don't) to give you the ticket. Their say against yours.
Cops need probabal cause to do anything... if they pull you over without evidence of probabal cause... well you will smoke them in court because of violation of civil rights.
I have personally seen a cop twice flat out lie to make a ticket stand. He gave me a careless driving charge for doing a wheelie. It was just an acceleration wheelie coming out of a turn (front wheel hovering off the ground couple inches for 20ft) The cop told the judge I was doing a stand up wheelie down the middle of the road for 200ft. This is just the one instance so don't tell me what cops say don't hold up in court because alot of situations are your word against his.
How about cops giving me a ticket for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. His reasoning was; "He couldnt have stopped completely, he never put his foot down."
I did get away with that one by showing the judge it could be done.
In past cases, when someone was banned and then unbanned, it always takes a couple of weeks. I would imagine that this is about how long the review process takes. So I would do what it takes to initiate that review and then i would relax.
I like to say that my friends are all legit players too, but the truth is I don't see them 24/7 and I'm not with them 24/7. I definitely can't see any other toons that may or may not be on their account. So while I would say that all of my friends are 100% legit, the truth is that they may not be and I would never know the difference.
NCSoft is never going to provide evidence, I wouldn't expect them too, and if I were them, I wouldn't tell people [censored] either. Why? Because it makes it too easy for people to find ways around thier methods of disposing of the cheaters.
What I find peculiar, is that any one of us could log on right now and pick 100 toons out that are botting in about 25 minutes.
We could give those names to NCSoft. NCSoft could look at the logs and the play profiles (like logged on for 24 consecutive hours, but not in a sell shop/buy shop) and know exactly what people are doing. Likewise, NCSoft could look at logs for movement of adena in certain locales and know what is happening. Clearly they don't want to restrict cheating...only cheating that people complain about.
I think we would need to formally get together as customers and state our desire for change, but NCSoft is not obligated to change anything. We can only vote by leaving the game.
I myself have no opion on the bans. But I would like to see some (insert a bad word starting w/ F and ending w/ -ing) action againts the so called "Raid Boss" Farmer Clans. As far as I know there are 3 Raids boss Farmer clans, whichi propably i Can't mention their names. Or can I?
dear Mistryl,
i think what the ppl really dislike is that random banning...
how can i check that no1 in my party is using a 3rd party tool ?
i CANT ... and all ppl click the "eula" when starting game, so i have to trust em.
i play on 3 accs and i love my buffers ... but when i imagine that someone spam petitions for triple boxing and i get banned for staying legit and die alot ...and get no PROOF of my fault...
i see evry day 100'S to 1000's bots ... evrywhere i go ...
and btw , i stopped petition em, cuz its useless...they stay
dont forget that is OUR(i know i know, its ncsofts..) game... but WE pay for it evry month .. and at least WE pay U...
feel free to ban evryone u want ... but send the owner of the acc a [censored] PROOF...... thats all we want
no more whining.. no more crying .... no more closed threads...
dear Mistryl,
i think what the ppl really dislike is that random banning...
how can i check that no1 in my party is using a 3rd party tool ?
i CANT ... and all ppl click the "eula" when starting game, so i have to trust em.
i play on 3 accs and i love my buffers ... but when i imagine that someone spam petitions for triple boxing and i get banned for staying legit and die alot ...and get no PROOF of my fault...
i see evry day 100'S to 1000's bots ... evrywhere i go ...
and btw , i stopped petition em, cuz its useless...they stay
dont forget that is OUR(i know i know, its ncsofts..) game... but WE pay for it evry month .. and at least WE pay U...
feel free to ban evryone u want ... but send the owner of the acc a [censored] PROOF...... thats all we want
no more whining.. no more crying .... no more closed threads...
think about
Good post.
And thinking about that, if the Gm's way of controlling is a pm sent just one time to any of my many accounts that i created to better play and stay legit, how am i supposed to notice everything especially if in pve?
What are these ways of checking? Just one pm? more pms after some minutes?
What if some people have some settings messed up especially after chronicle 4 relase and let's say they can't see "chat with friends"? What if they unchecked pms in clan chat because of soemone spamming them? You can do that...
And on top of that why are proofs not shown?
i agree that Gms dont work. I send petitons because dwarf are botting in gludio for a week and they attack guards. And after one week they were still there. Donno for now because i wasn playing for 3 days, but i think that they are still there, and there is more botts in NOS, 5 botts celaring same room all day, and there is more this [censored] which would gms should celan. ;)
And i agree dont ban without reason, because we pay to play and if someone get banned without reson give him back money ;) (all money which was spend on l2)
Unfortunately bigs, not everyone that gets banned is guilty. I know of an incedent where a person was 3-boxing, reported for botting, they got pmed by the GM's, responded to the GM's, was ported by the GM's just as they were starting an IN-GAME macro on one of their healers. Their healer still healed the person's main toon after it was ported. Now you may think as the GM's did that this is proof of 3rd party program. I can tell you now it is not.
I know this for a fact since I had a macro work like that for me. I was helping a clanny lvl his alt in the porta room, I had made a macro to target him and battle heal him. I clicked it just as he got ported by a porta, lost target on him but still battle healed him after he was ported even though I had no target. I had to retarget him in order to do anything else after that. However there is an inherrant glitch with the in-game macro system that only happens every so often, in which the macro continues to go off even after losing target when the target gets ported a short distance.
However, they were banned with the usual message of this matter is closed and no further emails will be responded to. They tried for weeks going through the 'proper' channels trying to explain and plead their case. However, so far in 99% of banning cases the 'proper' channels close the case with out hearing the players side, without providing any proof, and without accepting any proof from the player.
In my opinion I could understand this cold-shoulder policy of banning people and not dealing with them after the fact. It takes man hours, it takes time, and a good percent of the time the person was probably rightfully banned.
BUT I do NOT understand this policy in a game where 3rd party program use is so widespread and unchecked. If every single person who ever turned on a 3rd party program was banned within 1 week, then I could see them using this. But thats not how L2 is run.
It's hard to say who is at fault at this point. I know WoW does not have this problem, their version of Gameguard (Warden), actually allows them to CATCH CHEATERS BY SEEING WHAT PROGRAMS THEY'RE USING! :eek: . Shocking. So I know it is possible for NCSoft to stop these people even if they had to create a new anti-cheat program.
It's hard to say at this point if the GM team is actually all that against bots... their actions confuse me. It seems more like they do a few high profile bannings every now and again just to keep people on their toes but do absolutely nothing to actually bring the problem to an END.
Yes, an END. Has anyone ever considered a day when no one in L2 is a bot? No... I guess no one has.
At this point you're better off just waiting for L3 and hoping they dont -_- it up next time.
I was wondering about the built in recording feature new to C4...would it be possible to record bots doing their thing and send that file to NCsoft? I mean that must be one of the reasons right? Send the file, put it in the correct folder and run L2 to replay the recording.
I was wondering about the built in recording feature new to C4...would it be possible to record bots doing their thing and send that file to NCsoft? I mean that must be one of the reasons right? Send the file, put it in the correct folder and run L2 to replay the recording.
If it would be just that easy...
You can even use a stopwatch and see that they get their
buffs every 1200 seconds renewed, not closely, but exactly.
Or that the Healing always starts at the same amount of HP
lost, not even movement patterns that obviously show botting
game-play-style are a matter of checking botters...
It just comes up to saying "Ni Hao" when a GM wants to talk
to ya and that seems to be the only thing.
Maybe sometimes the GMs forget to pm you and in their report
they check "Never responded to PMs" *cough*cough*
Oh well, there are so much possibilities.
I have made good experiences with the support so far, they
were talkative so far and answered my questions in a polite
way that wasn't even copy-pasted...
From my personal point of view, I can't say anything bad, but
I heard some dull stuff that happened to other people...
NO! bots will play this game as long as there is a market. There is no way u will see lineage without bots/cheaters.
SO they ban ppls for advertiseing use or 3rd party programs.
Yet they don't ban ppls for scamming, which is a punishable offence in RL, but they ban ppls for speaking their minds.
I don't even think they have GM's there... i think they have some bots which knows only 0 and 1.
If u are a human u can't ban a player which invested 1 or 2 years of his/her life to play this game without even a proper explanation.
If something like this would have happened in my country, I would say... Hell no what can I do... I live in Romania... here everything is possible.
Seeing that this is possible there too just makes me sad...
Monsterhead please revise your post as this thread is not about the bannings of specific characters but about the GM system and process as a whole.
Thank you!
Edit:
Also in response to this part of your post
NO! bots will play this game as long as there is a market. There is no way u will see lineage without bots/cheaters.
That is not entirely true. In fact the banning of bots would hurt the L2 adena market in the short term, but it would survive in the long. Farmers would simply have to return to other strategies of money making. In C1, the market was at a point where farmers were actually all playing their characters on shifts. It is possible to return to that style if bots are banned and the price of adena goes up. However, it would have severe effects on the economy and everything would go quite haywire for a bit.
Farmers do farm games where they cannot bot, it's just handled differently! The secondary market is unstoppable, but botting is not.
At start I was replying to MetalSirenX
Then i stated my opinion about GM's so i think my post is oka...
In almost 1 year of playing I found only 1 GM to really speak with me... the rest only gave me auto answers. Yet I was asking for live GM support many times...
This is a buisness, and like any buisness, they will only sway their ways to the public when the market is about to crash, otherwise goodluck getting a word in. Bots are in just about EVERY GAME. Yes WoW's GG is awesome at keeping cheaters out, but it's not perfect. if it is a program it has a backdoor. But if you take out 90% of the bots, then NCsoft would lose ALOT of people who pay $15 a month to play this game, thus making them lose more money than they put into banning all of them. However farmers are in EVERY GAME even Ragnarok. You cannot and will not get rid of farmers, it is impossible.
Farmer's arent the issue here. Farmers and bots are not the same thing, regardless of how many farmers use bots. Some may not agree with currency sales, but the truth is that the secondary market is a widely accepted fact in the game development community. It is something that most people WANT to exist, the only people against it are the hardcore gamers... but in MMOs, they are the minority.
You're saying that if NCSoft banned every bot they would lose money... well... of course. But why is that? Because they let it get out of hand. If Blizzard banned the bots that slipped by their protection system they would not be facing a major problem, because those players bypassing the protection system are in the SEVERE minority. NCSoft has failed on a grand scale by not nipping this problem in the *** sooner, and now there seems to be no way to win the war.
They allowed this to become a problem, yet they are still trying to "fight" it.
I can only PRAY that NCSoft has learned their lesson from this experiment. Hopefully that will allow them to provide better service in the future.
I read here that "player Y" was't botting, when all server knows that there are entire clans here that are known for botting.
I'm sure they will find a "c00lbAbyXX" for him :P
Heres why. Inorder to craft your average A wepon you need what 4k bones 6K??? How much time are any of you going to spend on the mindless spoiling it takes to gather those. And thats just the bones. Not the varnish, the coal, the charcole the stones of purity. Yeah yeah you all say I use the manor system. But how many of you realy would. Now Botting is different. Players who come off as trying to be legit players and using a 3rd party to gain an advantage over others thats what the problem is.. And just cuz players x,y,z, may have been legit at the time they were banned does not mean 2 days earlier they wernt. The GMS all though in yalls opinion may be incompitent they realy are keeping the game together well. Yeah there are glitches yeah there are frarmers yeah there are botters. But they have plenty of other things going on as well. How many times a day do people get stuck and need help. How many times are they pmed about being scammed by people who use thier clannies names to scam them. I mean get on with your cryfest already. If you dont want to get banned for botting then dont do it. Its that simple.
No realy if yall think the game is so bad and that WOW or one of the many other games are so much better than go. I dont want you here. I am sick of all the little school girl crying. Grow up. Every day its a new [censored] fest about how the game is so screwed up. Well I dont see any of you with your name on a video game. Go make the perfect mmropg. Elimante all bots make every class even. Prevent scammers and deal with all the whiney people like yourselves who no matter what you do cant make it perfect cuz some one is allways going to [censored].
Oh wait your to lazzy and incompetent to do it. Thats why yall got cought with the bots in the firstplace. Cuz your lazy whiney school girls.
And you probably cheat on your taxes too. I am going to petition the IRS on yall.
If it would be just that easy...
You can even use a stopwatch and see that they get their
buffs every 1200 seconds renewed, not closely, but exactly.
With the new buff timer feature in C4, it's really easy for a human controlled buffer to have almost "bot-like" ability to buff exactly at the same time every time. For instance, I usually hit the buffs right when my timer buffs go to "1 min" remaining. Does that make me a bot? Am I going to get reported by you for being a good buffer?
It's like that other idea people use for "identifying bots" where if they see a whole melee party follow each other in a line to a mob, clearly they are bots right? But a whole group assisting an MA every time does the same thing.
I guess the lesson to be learned here is, if you don't want to be taken for a bot you need to play this game poorly. Don't assist your MA, just attack random mobs around the room. If you're a support class, don't keep the buffs up, let your party go buffless for a couple of minutes...you know, just for fun. Or better yet, rebuff all the time, so you never ever have enough MP.
Clearly the only people who appear to play their classes well, they are bots.
As this thread has turned to a discussion of EULA violations and third party program use, I am closing it now. Please see this thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=442966) for the forum policy on the discussions on this subject.