I really dont want to whine, what I want is a community support to help us each other to get rid of those raid boss farmers.
Raid bosses are no where anymore, it's like you have lost a feature in game, something you are paying for. As soon as they spawn raid bosses farmer clans take them down.
I know they cannot botting then neither you can prove they are selling it for real money. I heard that adenas are a special item that cannot be monitored by ncsoft, they dont know how much they trade it for, rumors maybe I'm not sure.
I think this is why NCsoft doesnt ban them all. For us who live in the server community it's easy to understand wich is a farmer clan, but why isnt that easy for ncsoft?
Dont tell me there are players that do nothing than selling and just doing massive amount of raid bosses as soon as they pop.
Please let raid bosses be for real players not for who is doing it as a job, I pay for the game and I dont get any profit I'm begging ncsoft to let be the game features for people like me.
So if I rerolled and my main old main is a tank, and I just log in with it for doing raid bosses because we got no other tank, then I'm a raid farmer too, rite?
If I level a Nuker to 65 for the sole purpose of helping at raid boss fights and I just use it for this occassion, I'm a raid farmer too, rite?
Be faster than they are, or kill their EEs and Healers and watch them drop by beeing killed by a raid boss. It really isn't that hard... As long as anyone else is faster than you in killing it, it's your problem not NCs.
So if I rerolled and my main old main is a tank, and I just log in with it for doing raid bosses because we got no other tank, then I'm a raid farmer too, rite?
If I level a Nuker to 65 for the sole purpose of helping at raid boss fights and I just use it for this occassion, I'm a raid farmer too, rite?
Be faster than they are, or kill their EEs and Healers and watch them drop by beeing killed by a raid boss. It really isn't that hard... As long as anyone else is faster than you in killing it, it's your problem not NCs.
LoL, seriously this is hypocrit. You are one that want to defend them, or what?
NcSoft could monitor whole account not only the toon logged in. Raid boss farmers are raid boss farmers, full stop. I've my times and log at my hours, should I monitor a boss 24/24h because of them? I'm playing as other ppl do, we have a life and a job that's it is different from violating eula in Lineage 2.
Do you think you can kill them? Good luck they pvp you if you do it before of em, or even also during the raid. It's their job they dont want somebody to steal it.
The average survival time of Antaras on Gustin is 2-10 hours, then the giant scaley is killed again. This is happening since Gustin was the first server to kill Antharas at all.
Not once in that time was Antharas killed by "farmer clans". Still the big alliances of Gustin were routinely checking for the beasty to be faster than the others.
When my old alliance went on a raid tour, we did send out 3-5 silent walkers on average, who were scouting raid bosses. The main party was moving around to kill the bosses as our scouts announced their presence. Many times we were just in the process of killing a raid boss or just finished with the boss, when another raid party came around. Many other times, we were coming to see the raid boss drop at the hands of our opponents.
Does that make us or them raid boss farmers ?
Yes, there are probably whole clans, who do nothing else than farming raid bosses, but as long as they do not use illegal tools to kill the raid bosses, they got every right to do it. When I am on my leveling spot, I kill every mob I see, as soon as it spawns. When someone wants my spot, I will defend my spot with all means, that I see fit, including training, killstealing and if necessary PKing. I do that, so that *I* can kill the mobs and not the other player. Why should that be different for Raid bosses ?
And what exactly is NCsoft supposed to do in your opinion ? Should each player only be allowed to kill a certain raid boss once per month ? Where is the competition aspect then ? You could just make an NPC then, who will spawn a desired raid boss to you, after you pay 5000a.
Especially at raid bosses, it is rather easy to interfere with the enemies. Harass them in game, by touring the raid bosses with them and get them killed again and again. They will have to fight for the boss then and if they do so and win, then they got all the right to kill it.
So I'm fighting against windmills...
Dear kitten, antharas is done every week also on my server, by _players_
On my server there are 2 or 3 raid bosses farmer clan. Since they do this for job should I woke up 4 am in the morning with all my friend just to harrass them for example? Do you think is doable? It's not, obiovusly is not! I'm not logged 24h and I dont do 12h shift time work to hunt down raidbosses!
You can harrass normal players not farmers.
I dont care if I or my clan kill the boss or if it's one of the clan I "hate" the most, I just want that to hunt down raidbosses should be players not workers!
Comparing you with farmers btw it's nonsense. We also did a lot of raid bosses but it was for our ally only, we shared drops in between ally as I think you did and other clans did in the past.
Ncsoft should just ban them because they are violating eula, but the problem comes when u have to prove it, I really dunnow if Ncsoft is capable to understand if they are doing this or not. Doing anything else like lowering raidboss drop chances for being non profitable is not good neither for players.
Anyhow is that hard to understand the difference from a farmer (a person who is working) to a regular player? Since it seems this is what you are worring about so far.
Actually, I've been seeing problems because the raid bosses are so easy now. Its easily possible to kill raid bosses with a single group now. Heck, yesterday we had one group, without a tank, and we killed 2 raid bosses without a single death.
Combine the long respawn time with the fact that almost anyone can kill a raid boss now, and you can see the raid bosses become very scarce. I wish NCSoft would randomize the respawn times, and make them somewhat shorter. As it is now, even the low level bosses have become scarce.
If the players killing the Raid Bosses are not bots, how are they "breaking the rules?" Like Kitten pointed out, if players (from whatever country) are efficiently killing raid bosses like they have every right to do, that is fine. Sure, you would like to be the one doing what they are doing, but you aren't strong enough or well organized enough to keep up with them.
Just my opinion here, but the term 'farmer' is often thrown around a bit too freely. Players from every country on Earth have equal rights to play L2. If someone plays a lot and efficiently takes down raid bosses that does not make them a cheater.
If they break the EULA they should be banned. If they don't, it's all cool. It is the breaking of the Eula, not the 'farming,' that is the real issue.
Anyhow is that hard to understand the difference from a farmer (a person who is working) to a regular player? Since it seems this is what you are worring about so far.
Ok, then please define to me, what for you makes a "farmer" in difference to a "player", if they both do kill raid bosses.
Assuming, that I were the one, waking up at 4 AM and doing the raid bosses, that you want to do, you would then stand there and sob about the raid boss being dead. Are you sure that it was killed by a farmer or just by a player ? And many clans kill raid bosses, to sell the drops for adena. How else would some clan be able to bid 900 Mio Adena on a clanhall ? Hardly from farming mobs for 2000a drops.
As long as the "farmers" are not using illegal tools, the fact that they kill raid bosses is no rulebreaking.
The sale of adena for RL cash, which might come afterwards, that is indeed breaking the rules, but killing the raid boss with a full group of active players is simply not against the rules, that is, why you can complain about it as long as you want, it wont change anything.
If raid bosses were instanced that would solve a lot of this. At least the quest completing ones. The problem we have is when raid bosses that MUST be done to complete a quest (subclassing, nobless) get killed within MINUTES of it spawning. On Kain the one for nobless is such a case, as players (notice I didn't say farmers, because it really doesn't MATTER) log in fully buffed and kill it almost instantly. It's really, really hard to compete with that.
And if people can't advance in the game because of this, you lose incentive to play. IMO anyway.
the way I see it, the only solution for this problem is to make raidbosses more random, so the same raidboss farmers cant own every boss with the same nuker team. player formed alliances are random, and don't purely exist of nukers (well, most alliances)
have some (heavily) resist wind attacks and weakness to physical attack, and let melees own a raidboss for a change (I just don't get it why melees hardly can scratch raidbosses at the first place :eek:)
this forces farmers to a point they have to have such a large amount of accounts/ diffrent leveled chars outfitted with gear it actually might not be profitable to farm them.
raidbosses should not be owned by one and the same strategy over and over again. it keeps it fun for the players and hard for the farmers.
If the players killing the Raid Bosses are not bots, how are they "breaking the rules?" Like Kitten pointed out, if players (from whatever country) are efficiently killing raid bosses like they have every right to do, that is fine. Sure, you would like to be the one doing what they are doing, but you aren't strong enough or well organized enough to keep up with them.
Just my opinion here, but the term 'farmer' is often thrown around a bit too freely. Players from every country on Earth have equal rights to play L2. If someone plays a lot and efficiently takes down raid bosses that does not make them a cheater.
If they break the EULA they should be banned. If they don't, it's all cool. It is the breaking of the Eula, not the 'farming,' that is the real issue.
I dont know about everyone else's experiences with raid farmers, but I dont think they are all players. Usually there are a grand total of 2-3 players (responding to chats, not moving like [insert 4 letter word here, begins with b], etc) heading up around 30 toons. Combine this with the fact that they seem to magically know the exact time of boss spawn and log in fully buffed at the exact location of the boss, and I start to wonder if they are players.
If they are, wonderful, let em raid. If they are persons using "bad" methods and selling adena for RL moolah...well, thats a different story.
I can't even AOE silence the ones we are at war with anymore bacause they have to flag.... even tohugh we are at mutual war. :confused:
Ok, I'll run up to 20 nukers who won't go red on me bacause of the war and wait for them to all flag before I can attack beacuse NC screwed the war system up.... oh wait, they all flag and I go no HP... GG
How on earth do they log in fully buffed? Last I checked my buffs faded when I was offline long enough >.> About the times the bosses die... well, if you know when you killed it you can calculate when it will next spawn since most of them have a set number of hours between each spawn. Also, some people use alts as raidboss scouts -you take an alt to a RB, log it off there and from time to time log into it to check if the RB is up.
Also, the farmer ally that is on Teon, is played by live people, and they port from place to place since you would need an enormous amount of characters to cover all the raidbosses. As long as they dont use 3rd party programs or sell the adena they earn for RL money, they're doing nothing wrong. Unless you can prove that they break EULA, they're allowed to massacre Raidbosses every time one spawns. They're just highly organized, dont need magic tricks to farm the RBs.
You buff up , and log out. You don't lose your buffs. Then you log in the instant the raid boss is up, kill it within 3 minutes. Everyone else is out of luck. You rebuff, log out, repeat. Randomly checking for when the boss is up is like finding a needle in a haystack unless you know exactly when the boss comes up.
Anyhow is that hard to understand the difference from a farmer (a person who is working) to a regular player? Since it seems this is what you are worring about so far.
Ok, then please define to me, what for you makes a "farmer" in difference to a "player", if they both do kill raid bosses.
Assuming, that I were the one, waking up at 4 AM and doing the raid bosses, that you want to do, you would then stand there and sob about the raid boss being dead. Are you sure that it was killed by a farmer or just by a player ? And many clans kill raid bosses, to sell the drops for adena. How else would some clan be able to bid 900 Mio Adena on a clanhall ? Hardly from farming mobs for 2000a drops.
As long as the "farmers" are not using illegal tools, the fact that they kill raid bosses is no rulebreaking.
The sale of adena for RL cash, which might come afterwards, that is indeed breaking the rules, but killing the raid boss with a full group of active players is simply not against the rules, that is, why you can complain about it as long as you want, it wont change anything.
Semantic Kitten
players = kill raid bosses for the drops and experience and for the game play and use those drops to support their ingame charater/clan/alliance - either by selling the drops and using the adena in game or by distributing the drops to players in the clan/alliance
farmers = kill raid bosses for the drops and sell the drops to players then sell the adena on various adena selling sites then sell the adena to players.
how to tell the difference = be educated to what is going on.
how to be educated = look at who does what; pay attention to the who the charaters/players that are doing the raids. It's not too difficult once you start to see what is going on.
how to get proof = NCSoft's job, but by a player bring forth information and problems that they are experiencing it has the potential to direct NCSoft's efforts in a direction to look into a solution/investigation.
If someone is having a problem then there is a post. No post could mean no one is having a problem. It's a game to have fun with, if enough people are not having fun I'm sure NCSoft make it different. Just like they have added C4, more fun.
Not to be rude, but I don't know how some players don't know what a farmer is. A farmer is not a charater that runs around killing mobs over and over. A farmer is a charater that runs around killing mobs over and over and then sells the adena for real life cash.
Why do I think the charater with a bunch of iiilllxmn is a farmer? Because in my experience I see that charater in the same spot day after day doing the same thing and never doing anything else and never leveling. A real player may have a charater that they farm with, I do, I play it usually in the same place, I have delevel it when I need to - the difference is, I don't play that charater day after day all of the time.
Argue as you may that the only time that person 'might' be playing that charater is when I'm there . . . but I hope that the people that want to argue that point are smart enough to think of another argument - it's a stupid argument. How many players even have charaters that they farm with in that manor? Most of the plays I know only have alts for selling - very few actually have alts that they farm lower level mobs with. Give examples if you want to argue - just your thoughts without some sort of example (i.e. A charater in the same spot day after day doing the same thing and never doing anything else and never leveling with out deleveling). I've never known a player to farm animal bone for 10+ hours a day for 2 or 3 months, daily. The solo farmer is not the issue in this post though, it's the group of farmers taking the rare mobs that is the issue. 100's of mobs drop animal bone - not as many drop full A grade drops. sorry for my english/grammer, I haven't had my 2nd cup of coffee yet.
there are enough raid bosses for everyone at the moment. if you dont find one, does it mean that the whole server must be taken up with killing raid bosses?
no.
take your whine to where the unedumacated people go.
and just to let you know, i have never never never ever seen ONE raid boss taken down by ONE clan of 10.
when youve got 30 people or more ready to do a raid boss, then come with your whine that the one you tried to kill was already taken :p
Anyhow is that hard to understand the difference from a farmer (a person who is working) to a regular player? Since it seems this is what you are worring about so far.
Ok, then please define to me, what for you makes a "farmer" in difference to a "player", if they both do kill raid bosses.
Assuming, that I were the one, waking up at 4 AM and doing the raid bosses, that you want to do, you would then stand there and sob about the raid boss being dead. Are you sure that it was killed by a farmer or just by a player ? And many clans kill raid bosses, to sell the drops for adena. How else would some clan be able to bid 900 Mio Adena on a clanhall ? Hardly from farming mobs for 2000a drops.
As long as the "farmers" are not using illegal tools, the fact that they kill raid bosses is no rulebreaking.
The sale of adena for RL cash, which might come afterwards, that is indeed breaking the rules, but killing the raid boss with a full group of active players is simply not against the rules, that is, why you can complain about it as long as you want, it wont change anything.
Semantic Kitten
The same way that a farmer who stays in the same room all the time and never leaves, except possibly to delevel at guards to remain the same level, is simply a normal player.
here is a simple solution that seems to work for a lot of people i know quite often. Ask the raid boss "farmers" to let your group kill the next spawn, especially if you are doing it as a quest. a lot of the time they will back off and let you go at it when the boss spawns next without a problem, so long as you hit it once then leave. same thing works with the adena farmers in catas, if they have a room you want, ask them to let you use the room, tell them it'll just be for 3-4 hours and they will generally wander on their way to some other room, often times never to return until you have left however long that is.
i know, crazy idea, this "asking" but it works a lot so try it you might be suprised.
there are enough raid bosses for everyone at the moment. if you dont find one, does it mean that the whole server must be taken up with killing raid bosses?
no.
take your whine to where the unedumacated people go.
and just to let you know, i have never never never ever seen ONE raid boss taken down by ONE clan of 10.
when youve got 30 people or more ready to do a raid boss, then come with your whine that the one you tried to kill was already taken :p
So if I rerolled and my main old main is a tank, and I just log in with it for doing raid bosses because we got no other tank, then I'm a raid farmer too, rite?
If I level a Nuker to 65 for the sole purpose of helping at raid boss fights and I just use it for this occassion, I'm a raid farmer too, rite?
Be faster than they are, or kill their EEs and Healers and watch them drop by beeing killed by a raid boss. It really isn't that hard... As long as anyone else is faster than you in killing it, it's your problem not NCs.
Can't believe that you actually have seen real raid boss farmers in action at high levels. They were bad in C3 but they are quite ridiculous in C4.
The Gatekeeper in Aden is full of 3 or more different raidboss farmer clans 24/7 waiting for a new boss to come up. How do they know it's up? you might ask. Well, they have a dead character with a random name at the site of every single 70+ raid boss on the entire server.
Please tell me how real players can compete with that without using bot armies themselves. At best a player using a bot army to beat raid farmers at their own game would only ever level the playing field, they still might not save the boss from the farmers.
The GM's have banned many raid boss farmers on every server, but of course being farmers they come right back in greater numbers. I think we need a higher turnaround on this specific kind of behaviour getting them removed from the game.
At absolute best as a real player you can prevent them from doing the boss they are trying to do. If you are lucky enough to see them doing it, get a pvp group ready and not die in the fight you will disrupt them enough to make them party recall. At this point you can hope the boss is of the right level for your alliance and try to form a raid.
Meanwhile the farmers are busy raiding another boss which just spawned. But of course they are easy to deal with?
The problem is magnified when less respectable alliances or clans on each server ally with the farmers to get what they want. It suddenly becomes hard to stop the farmers because a very strong alliance is protecting them. Said alliance is made stronger by the fact they have all the gear they need from the farmers.
I like how the game puts limited resources at our disposal to encourage conflict, but they really need to prevent farmers from exploiting it.
there are enough raid bosses for everyone at the moment. if you dont find one, does it mean that the whole server must be taken up with killing raid bosses?
The only raid bosses left out there are the one not in farmer range, we all well know that the farmer range cover the highest player request items in other words the items that are most tradable and that cover tha highest prices, B/A grade items and soon also S grade.
Honestly I dont use the word "farmer" randomly, in my sever community it's pretty clear that they are just there to farm bosses.
Semantic problem or not, what I'm asking for is just to let ncsoft be aware of this issue and to investigate deeper, because the age of normal boss farming it's the past. There arent only bot to ban!
Organizing different people in a short time it's something impossible, most of em have a group and they are doing something else. It's not nice to leave a group lefting other ppl hanging there for your clan/ally purpose only.
What about SA crystals and most of all Raid bosses needed to get your subclass? I see lvl 75 ppl camping it day and night just to get that chest, isnt this a stress for a player?
L2 it's an hard game, but I like to have all game features avaiable so I can play along with the other honest players the game we want.
there are enough raid bosses for everyone at the moment. if you dont find one, does it mean that the whole server must be taken up with killing raid bosses?
no.
take your whine to where the unedumacated people go.
and just to let you know, i have never never never ever seen ONE raid boss taken down by ONE clan of 10.
when youve got 30 people or more ready to do a raid boss, then come with your whine that the one you tried to kill was already taken :p
You haven't played C4 yet have you? 10 people is plenty for a raid boss now. In C3? No, very hard. But in C4 its very easy. There are not enough raid bosses because while they were made easier, they didn't add many new ones (most of the new ones are actually converted mini-bosses).
here is a simple solution that seems to work for a lot of people i know quite often. Ask the raid boss "farmers" to let your group kill the next spawn, especially if you are doing it as a quest. a lot of the time they will back off and let you go at it when the boss spawns next without a problem, so long as you hit it once then leave. same thing works with the adena farmers in catas, if they have a room you want, ask them to let you use the room, tell them it'll just be for 3-4 hours and they will generally wander on their way to some other room, often times never to return until you have left however long that is.
i know, crazy idea, this "asking" but it works a lot so try it you might be suprised.
If I ask one farmer clan to left one boss, for sure I've to deal in another way with the second clan, both are in conflict of course because they have the same interests. Sadly but true.
Wow, the idiocy in this thread is amazing. First, the complaint is raid BOTS. THese are the clans that are doing raid bosses 24/7. We have TWO Raid farmer clans on the server, one has joined a power alliance, the other joined the other power alliance. Now each side has a gaggle of chinese raid farmers at thier disposal to fight thier wars. Read posts from the original Alliance to have the raid farmers and they state it clearly "They dont mind losing XP, they dont care about going red they dont care about anything" These are very powerful people to have on your side, those that dont care about anything. Thier gear? Replaceable, avadon is cheap. Thier XP? Why care? They get it all back after killing a good 80% of the 65+ Raid bosses. They even go to the seiges to defend, as even 1% deaths can be annoying to some people, these farmers dont care. They are like kinda like Mercs. They join a side for protection and give them more in return. Makes it rather impossible for regular players to enjoy high end content of the game. If I was 75 and needed to do the subclass bosses, I would have to go grovel to a power alliance to let me. Its BS, Its poor game design, and a failure of NCSoft to rework this game into an americanized game instead of the korean snugglefest that it is(They have a sense of Honor, we have a sense of gimmie gimmie gimmie!!!!!!!!!).
Wow, the idiocy in this thread is amazing. First, the complaint is raid BOTS. THese are the clans that are doing raid bosses 24/7. We have TWO Raid farmer clans on the server, one has joined a power alliance, the other joined the other power alliance. Now each side has a gaggle of chinese raid farmers at thier disposal to fight thier wars. Read posts from the original Alliance to have the raid farmers and they state it clearly "They dont mind losing XP, they dont care about going red they dont care about anything" These are very powerful people to have on your side, those that dont care about anything. Thier gear? Replaceable, avadon is cheap. Thier XP? Why care? They get it all back after killing a good 80% of the 65+ Raid bosses. They even go to the seiges to defend, as even 1% deaths can be annoying to some people, these farmers dont care. They are like kinda like Mercs. They join a side for protection and give them more in return. Makes it rather impossible for regular players to enjoy high end content of the game. If I was 75 and needed to do the subclass bosses, I would have to go grovel to a power alliance to let me. Its BS, Its poor game design, and a failure of NCSoft to rework this game into an americanized game instead of the korean snugglefest that it is(They have a sense of Honor, we have a sense of gimmie gimmie gimmie!!!!!!!!!).
Did I ever said they are bot? Did I?
Almost nobody mentioned it about raid boss farmers.
You and your ally using farmer it's none of my business, I've some etic safe here.
If I do a raid boss and make someone else beside me happy with the drop I give him, and I dont care. I dont want to join an ally with farmer clans never. Nothing personal but, really I dont like how u can defend such people.
The sale of adena for RL cash, which might come afterwards, that is indeed breaking the rules, but killing the raid boss with a full group of active players is simply not against the rules, that is, why you can complain about it as long as you want, it wont change anything.
Semantic Kitten
It's all part of the same enterprise. It's not separate conduct, it's the same conduct. They kill bosses to get items to sell for adena that they then sell for real life currency.
The problem is that these are WORKERS not players, so they are online 24 hours a day, always.
It's fair for one group of players to compete with another. It's not fair for a group of workers to be allowed to compete with a group of players.
NCsoft needs to ban ALL professional adena selling farmers, starting at the ones doing the high end content, and working their way down the chain. This should be their #1 priority.
the comment that even 'low level raid bosses are nowhere' isn't what i've seen. i'm a lowly soloing dwarf just over 30 and could join raids every day in gludio for the lower ones. i've only been on a couple and both times we went to at least 2 bosses (lower i'll admit). as i solo around the orc barracks, the wastelands, even the abandoned camp i see these raid bosses standing and waiting every day.....perhaps this is just a problem for all the high lvl players who need specific bosses. I can't agree that 'even low level bosses are nowhere'--i see the opposite daily.
Well thats the thing, ive seen alot of the "bot train raid farmers" on kain.
Most of them are actually played, at least 50-75% of them anyway, 1 necro, 8-10 SH's, 1 tank, 2 healers and buffers. about 2-2 1/2 groups to kill raid bosses.
They basically arnt doing much wrong, compared to a regular player, except that they sell the adena on e bay lol XD
This thread is turning into a discussion of third party program use and other EULA violations, so I will close it now. Please remember to send any specific reports of suspected violations to the Support Team through the web site (http://support.lineage2.com) with as many details as possible. Thank you!