Why L2 is the game for everyone.

General Discussion Started Last reply 15 posts
Lineage2 is a game full of diverse races of people doing diverse things in diverse ways all towards a common goal. the joy of the game.

having said this it should be noted that some aspects of the game are important and helpful in the real world; aspects such as grouping, scamming, farming, grinding, and clanning can help a young and otherwise ignorant person battle through the stages of life if the lessons learned in L2 are applied correctly.

it is noted that grouping helps a toon in L2 to level fast and to gain better money and generally ease the slow grind of the game for some classes more than others (i.e. classes not unlike Neromancer and SpellSinger or bladedancer who can level quickly even without a group, as opposed to healer classes which ultimately demand group action in order to level at all). well being in the workplace or at school in a group to work toward a common objective is not unlike the experiences in L2 game world as most often there will be a higher authority requiring or demanding the completion of a project. to complete a project, some people tend to work best while grouped and others finish faster solo. even still, as L2 mimics the real world, the consequences for wrongly dealing with co-workers or group members is as unfortunate in L2 as in the real world. in L2 your toon may get killed, or abandoned or kicked from the group for doing something wrong. likewise for doing something wrong you may end up killing, or abandoning your group members. the real world is not so different; perhaps no murder is involved, but the consequences can still be as dire. to be fired, expelled, kicked out of house and home for worng actions should be evidently as serious as those consequences in Lineage2. the common goal has now been prolonged, and the grind is become hard as before leaving characters needing to re-group or to come up with some new way to make the grind easier; not unexpectedly, the loss of Experience in Lineage2 and the loss of a job in the real world are both setbacks requiring rethinking or redevlopment of the play strategy.

it is not uncommon in the world of lineage2 to loose some item on your death, nor is it uncommon to experience the loss of items to a player with motives alterior to those imposed upon the player. in the game world and the real world this is called a scam. scams generally case grief to players who loose very very valuable property, and can lead to the ruin of the lives of those in the real world when it is realised that the ten dollars sent to a charity did not actually arrive at the charity but into someone elses pockets. scamming in the real world is illegal, but is hard to trace and seldom punished. likewise in the game world we find that players who are scammed even tho they report it cannot get their items back without the higher authority making a decision that the scam was in violation of the rights of a user or the agreement set out from the beginning of the game. players and real life people need to both come to terms with the adverse and harsh worlds of gaming and real life. it is often sad, and most unfortunate, but the policy remains to this day as it began so many years ago when the latin language was developed. Let The Buyer Beware.

the game of lineage2 is composed of five races all with unique skills and different abilities. the orcs for example have superior strength and superior constitution which makes them both dangerous and hard to kill. this race can solo well no matter what class within the race is chosen and followed. likewise the elven race with low constitution and low strength would require the aid of some other folk to grind at the same pace. this can be suited to the real world where some people in this world are naturally larger, bulkier, smarter, faster, more quick-witted, funnier, or any other defining characteristic. then again some are crippled from birth. it only makes sense that some people need more help than others to perform the life tasks set out by one chosen profession. it can be difficult for some folks to make a bit of money, where for others in a different position having different tasks or benefits it is easier to make the same money. moreover it can be easier for some to make more money in less time. the point remains, that as in lineage2, the chore of making money to benefit oneself is indeed that, a chore. for some it is less a chore than others. some classes indeed require other classes to help them make some money as they have no skills wherewith to grind.

finally, and thankfully, there are such things in the real world as homes. such things as folks who share a common goal, folks who are caring and helpful when one within the group needs aid. again within the lineage2 realm the clan is that real life mimic that can help, or hinder a character's progress in the gameworld. no clan could possibly claim to mimic a home, for each home is different; but for the most part, each clan can attest to the fact that the whole group is saddened when a member of it leaves, or has died or has lost something to one circumstance or another. just how different is a home from a clan? in a clan is the leader and his/her first and most respected clanmate. these are liable to be the higher level members of the clan. however in the home is the father and/or mother figure with their first and most well beloved. often a spouse or common law partner, these bonds make the head of the home and children in general are fed, clothed, and sheltered by such people. the clan is no different in most cases. some clans will be helpful enough to buy new armor should yours be lost on death; but most will help you farm for it again.

let it not be said that video games are a means of escape, nor let it be said that the game is a waste of time. many valuable lessons can be learned from the gameworld if one truly wishes to see them for what they are.
um, any comments? anything to add?
Well.. though I appreciate the points you have highlighted, I think that is still "isn't" the game for everyone.

Regardless of the good things about it, people want to sit down and enjoy themselves if they have the time to play a game.

Having to "deal" with some of the people who inhabit this gameworld, not to mention not being able to completley pick "how" you play at any given time, makes it less than fun.

If all you want to do is to sign on and fish, you might suddenly need to deal with an alliance or clan issue.

If all you want to do is to pvp, you might have more difficulty getting a satisfying pvp experience and instead be presented with grinding upon grinding.

In the end it is not the concepts that the game embodies but the gameplay experience.

Heck... I don't even know if this game is for me!
You have any idea how logn that post is? We have a short attention span you know.

But if I am correct you say that Li2 teaches the player a lot of important lessons. In how not to fall victim to crime, how to cooperate, how to work hard etc. All this is true and well.

Alas, it teaches more. It teaches them how easy it is to scam, grief, kill. It teaches them how well using criminal tactics is rewarded in this game. It teaches them that they who has the most money to spend and dare to cheat (ebay) gets rewarded with the best goodies, the highest levels and therefore the most l33t for your monthyly $15. It teaches them that he who tries to be decent and good gets punished for that. In fact it teaches that he who cheats best wins and helping others is something of the past and carebear.

No, I do not think that Li2 teaches us so many valuable good things.
so we should be asking ourselves now (if i have understood you correctly) "Should games remain games and nothing else?"

a type of virtual place where nobody else harms, dissatisfies or in any way disrupts your play experience?

You have any idea how logn that post is? We have a short attention span you know.

But if I am correct you say that Li2 teaches the player a lot of important lessons. In how not to fall victim to crime, how to cooperate, how to work hard etc. All this is true and well.

Alas, it teaches more. It teaches them how easy it is to scam, grief, kill. It teaches them how well using criminal tactics is rewarded in this game. It teaches them that they who has the most money to spend and dare to cheat (ebay) gets rewarded with the best goodies, the highest levels and therefore the most l33t for your monthyly $15. It teaches them that he who tries to be decent and good gets punished for that. In fact it teaches that he who cheats best wins and helping others is something of the past and carebear.

No, I do not think that Li2 teaches us so many valuable good things.

can you not use Ebay for real life money laundering or scamming?

you certainly can.

you learn these things because you wanted to learn them. in the real world how easy is it to loose your credit card number to let someone very swiftly and silently come to rob your home, and kill your family? the dark side of life is never obliterated because it cannot be. in L2 you never cease to hear or people scamming, ebaying, botting, etc. it just cannot be stopped. nor can it be removed without unbalancing the game.

thats L2 for you, as it is in real life.
games don't teach us anything... if you take anything from a game and apply it to rl... well I don't know how to finish that sentence.

L2 is a game you play to enjoy like any other game... It isn't meant to teach but to entertain. If you aren't entertained by it, play something else.
Greetings,


games don't teach us anything... if you take anything from a game and apply it to rl... well I don't know how to finish that sentence.




OMG what a crappy argument !

You look like a guy that pulled out his sword, and then dropped it in front of me. I'm laughing so, I'm wondering if I should kill you, just steal your sword, or help you pick it up.

Games do teach things. Some good, some bad. Basically it will teach you based on how you react to it.

Some folks learn valuable lessons, some other folks kill another person in RL over game stuff or throw themselves over a cliff yelling a flying spell.

This is game isin't for everyone. Then again, even RL isin't a game for everyone.

Have Fun ! ™

BoardPK
Official Board Devil


so we should be asking ourselves now (if i have understood you correctly) "Should games remain games and nothing else?"

a type of virtual place where nobody else harms, dissatisfies or in any way disrupts your play experience?



That's another argument. Your initial argument is that L2 is the game for everyone becuase of x and y

And I'm saying that "I"... me... the player... play games for very specific reasons that are personal. I don't care what a game teaches me though I will take any lessons learned. However.. .since I would be considered well read, have 8 years of college under my belt, and am open to new ideas, I don't play games to do anything other than be pleasant diversions.

So when I come home I have a few choices of what to do with my time. Part of that is to "write" music and libretto because that is what I do... but other than watch tv, read, see a movie or go out with friends, I like to play video games.

I play games that I find fun. When the game is no longer fun I stop. This is not to say that games can't be more or should not be more but I only play games for the fun factor... doesn't matter what else it offers.

I also really like Snood. No lessons there but I find it fun.

can you not use Ebay for real life money laundering or scamming?

you certainly can.

you learn these things because you wanted to learn them. in the real world how easy is it to loose your credit card number to let someone very swiftly and silently come to rob your home, and kill your family? the dark side of life is never obliterated because it cannot be. in L2 you never cease to hear or people scamming, ebaying, botting, etc. it just cannot be stopped. nor can it be removed without unbalancing the game.

thats L2 for you, as it is in real life.



You certainly can play this game without griefing or cheating (for the sake of argument, cheating here is doing things that would be considered criminal in rl with the exception of killing countless mobs). But when you look around you will notice that the cheaters actually are better of then the non cheaters. So the first lesson they learn is that the poor honest slob will never get as advanced as the cheater. Worse, that the cheater is hardly ever caught.

Quite a few people have begun to cheat themselves when they found this out.

Not a good lesson learned by my book. If somebody said to me that this game should not be played before people grow up to 21, I wouldnt have much arguments against that. Because this games teaches that violence is the way to advancement. Not lessons you want to seriously imprint your kids with.
Actually given the open ended nature of the game it simulates real life in alot of ways. And I believe it's a real life lesson that teaches them how to play Lineage 2 and not the other way around. Real Life is the most open ended game around if you look at it like a game. Then with "games" the more open ended and more freedom to explore and do new things the more real life influences it. And given how much more open ended L2 is, it's harder to catch cheaters and the same thing is real life. Cheaters who don't get caught in real life often find themselves better off as well. But the "Police Force" in each world may vary as well so the risk of getting caught could either be more or less, in Lineage 2's case most would agree it's less.

So no, l2 doesn't teach you lessons of real life, it's the other way around.
This is the only way I could ever relate a video game to ral life..... I play this game sometimes to relieve stress from RL situations. Other than that I hope knowone and I do mean knowone ever takes what they learn in a video game and applies it to real life situations. Biggest reason for this is some people in the US have already tried to blame video games for what they did in real life (murder). If anything people play viseo games to escape from RL.
And there you have it. Given the violent nature of Li2 and the reality of some of its mechanics, it is inevitable that people will get influenced badly by it.

For example, why do you pk a player with your high level griefer? You do that because you like to hurt other persons. Sure it is just a videogame, but you DO hurt/frustrate a fellow human being. Do this repeatedly and you will find it easier to hurt someone a little. Perhaps you will try scamming next. This time stealing more then just a few hours of hard work. Hurting people even more and this time for greed. So when you leave the game and the opportunity presents itself to cheat on a fellow human being to get yourself more wealth, can you resist that lure, it is so easy sometimes.

Sure a videogame is escapism. But I do not think that escapism to hurt humans is such a good idea to begin with.

Lineage2 is a game full of diverse races of people doing diverse things in diverse ways all towards a common goal. the joy of the game.



In all honesty, I think your post would have been more effective if you'd stopped right at the first paragraph. But then again, this is isn't Composition 101, is it?

Okay, for myself, I'm addressing the entire thread (as always) not just Spudnik.

Hmm. For starters, a few links:
Cool math 4 kids (http://www.coolmath4kids.com/)
Apples 4 the teacher (http://www.apples4theteacher.com/math.html)
ESL Teacher's Board (http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/lessons/index.pl)

Games are very effective teaching tools. When done well, they are in fact, the single most effective way to transfer fixed skill sets from the teacher to the pupil. There is an entire field of psychology that specializes in studying the relationship between play and learning (Gestalt Therapy (http://www.gestalt.org/)). However, learning is not the only function of play. Play can also be used quite effectively in both children and adults to work through and overcome the lingering effects of traumatic experiences (Play Therapy International (http://www.playtherapy.org/)). The relationship between play and learning is one of the factors that makes this kind of therapy so effective.

I could go on. There are countless research projects demonstrating the relationship between playing a game and learning a skill, an attitude, or an entire way of life. However, there is NO evidence to indicate any reliable predictive element in exactly what lesson a person will learn when experiencing undirected play. In other words, if a game is developed to teach a particular skill, it will teach that skill, but at the same time each player will learn something else through their experience of the game and what those additional lessons will be is strictly determined by the life experience each player brings to the game.

For example, some players come into the world of Lineage II and use their game time to "scam" other players. Their life experience has taught them that this form of interaction is very profitable and their ingame experience confirms that lesson. Thus, if a person is already inclined to scam other people, then the lesson of running an effective scam inside the world of Lineage II will help sharpen their grifting skill and probably help make them a more effective scam artist in the real world as well.

It does not mean Lineage II teaches scamming.
It does not mean every scammer in the world of Lineage II is a real life con artist.

It does mean that anyone who uses the game world to hone their grifting skills is more likely to be a real world con artist of some kind, even if the only "con" they run is a weekly penny-ante poker game with a stacked deck or sweet-talking their partner into a little hanky-panky on a night when they'd rather just sleep.

If you cheat at Lineage II, then you probably also cheat on your taxes, your spouse, your company, and everyone else you encounter in your daily life. The lessons learned in the game world reflect the skills you use every day.

If you habitually PK, then in real life you are probably aggressive, pushy, demanding, short tempered, and generally a pain to be around. If you're not that way in real life, you probably wish you could be.

None of these are 100%. Actual percentages are impossible to determine because we can't read minds, therefore, we can never confirm what the internal world of each person we encounter really looks like.

You can claim anything you like. Your actions while playing a game determine the skills you've learned in the past, and help hone those same skills for use in the future.

So yes, games do teach us something. However, the exact nature of the lesson is determined more by the nature of the person than it is by the nature of the game.


You certainly can play this game without griefing or cheating (for the sake of argument, cheating here is doing things that would be considered criminal in rl with the exception of killing countless mobs). But when you look around you will notice that the cheaters actually are better of then the non cheaters. So the first lesson they learn is that the poor honest slob will never get as advanced as the cheater. Worse, that the cheater is hardly ever caught.

Quite a few people have begun to cheat themselves when they found this out.

Not a good lesson learned by my book. If somebody said to me that this game should not be played before people grow up to 21, I wouldnt have much arguments against that. Because this games teaches that violence is the way to advancement. Not lessons you want to seriously imprint your kids with.

do you need to teach your child to lie? no, it happens just because it happens.

do you need to think up a way to scam people in lineage2? no, it happens when it happens. you will stumble upon it, and follow it instinctively. it MAY happen again, it may not. what you take from the game is exactly that, what YOU took. not what someone else took. some poeple have the common sense to know killing isnt the way to advancement. it happens that killing is the way of lineage2.

re: previous poster; i do believe what you said is exactly what i was trying to conclude. well done.