Will this ever happen, because our leader of our clan is becoming very inactive and we have another person who wants to lead, but cant because there isnt a option to hand down the leadership, like there is when u are in a party.
why hasnt NC soft done this yet. we dont feel like wasting SP and adena and time to create another clan.
To me it has to do with all that earned sp. It would be easy for a top Player to go farm sp get lvl 5 . then hand the rigths over to some that cant handle a clan. Now if would only be based on the indivuals in that clan. that could recieve the new position, that i would i agree to. I also have complaints about Clan leader authority . I submitted to support.About giving and taken rights while clan members are not logged in. One response so far. So send your suggestion thru the support and see what happens.
A clan isn't an union. It's way more feudalistic than that. A clan is a bunch of people swearing an oath of allegiance to a single person, the leader. If that leader steps down, "dies" or you lose confidence in them and a new leader emerges to take his or her place, you'll have to swear that oath to him or her anew - in game terms, make a new clan.
A clan isn't an union. It's way more feudalistic than that. A clan is a bunch of people swearing an oath of allegiance to a single person, the leader. If that leader steps down, "dies" or you lose confidence in them and a new leader emerges to take his or her place, you'll have to swear that oath to him or her anew - in game terms, make a new clan.
Yes, that is exactly my opinion, too. And the quests to raise the clan level point into this direction, too - the leader has to make personal sacrifices (SP) to raise the clan level, the clan members quite literally die FOR the clan leader (lvl 4 quest). And the increase in clan member capacity could be explained by the clan leader becoming more "famous" and attracting more followers.
No, if the clan leader leaves, the clan is gone. That is the way it should be. It makes sense. If people fear that everybody would leave if players had to disband a clan and build up a new one, then it was a bad clan to begin with, anyway (or the new chosen leader-to-be simply is not popular enough to make people wait a few days/do the quests with him).
And, as was pointed out, being able to hand over leadership would mean that you could have somebody else do the clan quests for you and then just take over. For example, farmers could lvl up clans on demand, invite the new "leader" and hand over the clan to him, all for RL money.
They could easily make the cost of handing the clan over the SP needed by the original leader as well as some sort of quest item for completing the Clan level quests.
This would make the leader-to-be go through the same things the original leader did, but you would not lose the name and any time associated with disbanding/reforming.
That doesn't negate the fine points made by _Akjosch_. Making a clan is designed to be a sacrifice of time, xp, sp, adena in order to legitimize the organization for what should be dedicated members of a family (clan).
While there have been times that I (like many players) would have been glad to be able to use such a clan-transfer feature, with the perspective of sacrifice and earning the clan tag... I have to agree.
That doesn't negate the fine points made by _Akjosch_. Making a clan is designed to be a sacrifice of time, xp, sp, adena in order to legitimize the organization for what should be dedicated members of a family (clan).
I suggested you include all those things in the option to transfer leadership didnt I?
Im pretty sure I just re-read my post and said they could require the new clan leader to give up all of those things that a new clan would have to in order to transfer it.
Yep, just read it again and that's what I said.
Not sure how doing it once "legitimize's" it but doing it a second time would not.
Clan Triads recently moved from Teon to Devianne (five days ago). They are already level 3, at war with an established clan and rolling raid bosses their level left and right.
The organisational skill and charisma of the leader that managed to make them drop their high level toons on one server to start on another is honoured in the fact that that person is the new leader.
If you can not keep the members through a transition, you do not deserve them.
And of course, keeping the name is another notion that I find odd - it's not the same clan anymore if it does not have the same leader.
They could easily make the cost of handing the clan over the SP needed by the original leader as well as some sort of quest item for completing the Clan level quests.
This would make the leader-to-be go through the same things the original leader did, but you would not lose the name and any time associated with disbanding/reforming.
Fine:
1. Clan must be level 5 to transfer leadership.
2. Leadership may only be transfered once for a clan.
3. Clan delevels to level 1 on transfer.
4. New leader must be assigned by current leader and must be a member. New leader must be online to accept change request.
5. Transfer takes 10 days to complete.
6. During transfer period, no members may be added or removed. Individual members may leave of their own accord. If pending leader leaves, transfer stops.
7. If transfer is interrupted, another request cannot be made for 5 days.
8. Once transfer is complete, members may only be added if there is room.
I guess the way I am looking at it, it's not really that big of a deal. A clan can reorganize fairly easily now with the amount of SP the typical player has at higher levels. As a clan leader already, I had over 6 mil extra SP after buying all my skills this last level.
Just make it so the new leader has to go through all of the things the old leader did, but instead of making a new clan, he assumes leadership of the old one.
In the instances we are discussing, there already is a clan. There still will be a clan.
Instead of transferring everyone (and everything out of the WH) you can change command by going through the same thing the other clan leader had to go through.
What do you eliminate by having this:
1. The Name does not change
2. Things are not needed to be transfered from one WH to the other
3. Clan members do not have a 5 day out of clan time frame.
Im not sure any of those things are what I would consider "complicated." More annoying in my mind.
BTW- I went through this exact situation with my clan. The original leader quit the game and I formed a new clan with all the old members transfering in.
I'm not following you except to think you just want to be able to transfer leadership willy-nilly as you see fit. I think that's a bad idea. There's a reason that clan leaders are the only ones allowed to perform certain actions.
It was relevant - what I'm saying is that if you have what it takes, you can do the transfer, and you should have to.
If you don't have what it takes, you can't have the transfer.
I personally think clan names should be blocked after being dissovled, too, so clans can't attempt to reform as "exactly the same". It isn't the same if it's not with the same leader.
1) You want to be able to make someone a clan leader without having to go through the process of earning and leveling that clan.
2) You as usual have come here with your opinion (which is fine) that gains it's particular skew from your own personal agenda (or past experiences as in this case as you've freely admitted) and with no intention of engaging in a discussion that will in any way alter your point of view, regardless of input from others.
Summation: You want what you want and your opinion is the only one you'll agree with.
That is the only way anyone can comunicate with you. But as you are out of the Gustin forums, you've plenty of "fresh meat" to pound into submission thgrough tireless rehash and endless readjustment of your idealism through technicality rewriting.
You have your opinion. Cool.
I like some others disagree.
That's cool also.
Now, if the "new" leader of the "transferred" clan has to quest and give up the same amount of SP, Adena etc.... why not just dissolve and do it all again? The 7 day wait?
Well there's more to it than that. For example, maybe you own a clan hall or *gulp* a castle. Then it isn't the same sacrifice of that person who had to start from scratch.
Maybe, if people were clanless for a week, they might rethink their clan choices instead of just staying where they are comfortable?
Maybe said clan is an alliance leader. Starting over one may have to do some serious political work to rebuild.
So yes, all those things are missing from the equation. It isn't the same thing to just extract adena and sp from the "new" clan leader. he's getting a free-ride in many aspects in a clan ownership transfer scenario.
/unsigned still despite the novel you will write and all the exposition that will fluff it up.
Yeah that's it Quay. Your usual pompous sumation. You havent changed a bit. Still a weak little man hiding behind his own insecurities.
I was asking questions as to why people thought the way they did. That in and of itself disproves anything you said about me. Not to mention this doesnt effect me at all presently so I have nothing to gain from this change.
Let's look at your points:
1. Did you read my posts before blasting off with your attitude riddled nonsense? I in fact stated not once, but twice for people who have a hard time with comprehension, that the new leader should in fact have to sacrafice as much as the original did. So this point is completely incorrect.
2. Already addressed this. Brilliant observation btw that I would base my opinions off of my opinions. Now please, for the love of all that is good, show me where I said anything about not even being willing to entertain anyone else's thoughts? 0 for 2
(here you stopped numbering for the purpose of being a larger *** and making the first actual points in your sermon. Ill number them for ease of discussion.)
3. Castle of clan hall ownership. Clearly a viable discussion. I can see the point of losing either if held by a clan if leadership transfers as it could be classified as a new clan.
4. Clan members choice. They could make the same decision while in the clan...so what? I dont see this as being a real sticking point at all. If need be, you could give clan members a one time shot to leave the clan without 5 day penalty at leadership transfer.
5. Alliance leadership. Clans as well can leave alliances at anytime and rejoin another. Applies the same as members of the clan as I see it.
Your idea of a discussion Quay, is one person talks and everyone else agrees or disagrees. I'd like to see what bubble you live in where that type of discussion accomplishes anything.
See here in the real world, things are discussed and opinions changed based on new ideas being brought to the table over time.
I understand you are incapable of doing such a thing. Let's try and pretend you arent a social misfit and open the door to some constructive posts from you.
Things are instituted in this game with little or no thought put into them all to often ie: racetrack, quests, lottery etc. These things do little in the game and while good ideas where not instituted well because people like you quell anyone from having free any sort of discussion on the matter.
You dont have to agree with anything I have to say, but unfortunatly for you, you will read it.
If you think giving up the amount of SP needed to go to level 5 clan, the adena required and doing both quests, is "willy-nilly" then yes.
I dont see it that way having done it already.
I dont see why transfering clan leadership should have more restrictions on it then making a new clan of the same level.
Well then you're just talking about a matter of convenience. Personally, I don't think it should be convenient to transfer leadership of a clan. It's a big deal. It should take some "inconvenience" to do. Now, like you said, you have all of the tools to reform then clan, but it's inconvenient and takes time. Why shouldn't it?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case. LOL
2) You as usual have come here with your opinion (which is fine) that gains it's particular skew from your own personal agenda (or past experiences as in this case as you've freely admitted) and with no intention of engaging in a discussion that will in any way alter your point of view, regardless of input from others.
Summation: You want what you want and your opinion is the only one you'll agree with.
Good job Quay. Way to show me an example of what you were talking about. You had me for a minute there, I thought you were being serious about wanting a discussion.
Personally, I don't think it should be convenient to transfer leadership of a clan. It's a big deal. It should take some "inconvenience" to do. Now, like you said, you have all of the tools to reform then clan, but it's inconvenient and takes time. Why shouldn't it?
It sounds to me like you would prefer not having them at all, but if they are to be, you think it should be very hard to do. Am I right?
What do you think about the suggestion made by someone else, the two people involved do a quest of some sort? (I would add, the person wanting leadership should have to give up the SP, adena and other quests as well.)
What if you take it a step further and make it a good long quest that invloves the clan taking down a raid boss? That way you would insure the clan wants the leadership to change as well.
I was very serious in that having a conversation with you about a topic on which you've already an opinion is a pointless endeavor.
I believe my point in that regard has been made, and I'll pass on having a protracted verbal slugfest with you for the sake of ego-driven one-upsmanship.
I'm content being a social misfit and whatever other middle-school monikers you prefer to plaster me with.
Personally, I don't think it should be convenient to transfer leadership of a clan. It's a big deal. It should take some "inconvenience" to do. Now, like you said, you have all of the tools to reform then clan, but it's inconvenient and takes time. Why shouldn't it?
It sounds to me like you would prefer not having them at all, but if they are to be, you think it should be very hard to do. Am I right?
You are correct. I am of the opinion that the leader is the clan.
What do you think about the suggestion made by someone else, the two people involved do a quest of some sort? (I would add, the person wanting leadership should have to give up the SP, adena and other quests as well.)
What if you take it a step further and make it a good long quest that invloves the clan taking down a raid boss? That way you would insure the clan wants the leadership to change as well.
I don't think this is inconvenient enough. I refer back to my 9 (so far :p) rules of clan leadership change.
I'm content being a social misfit and whatever other middle-school monikers you prefer to plaster me with.
But have a great day.
How many middle-schoolers do you know calling people "social misfits"? Cmon Quay, dont say you are going to stay out of something while doing exactly that.
I re-read through the thread and dont see where you offered any suggestions what-so-ever on how this could be done.
Thinking it should not be allowed is a valid position. To say others suggestions on how it could be done have less weight because you dont think it should be allowed, is plain folly.
Look at Sir E if you need an example of how your point should have been expressed.
You are correct. I am of the opinion that the leader is the clan.
I don't think this is inconvenient enough. I refer back to my 9 (so far :p) rules of clan leadership change.
Fair enough.
If you look at my rules, the only thing you lose (in addition to the adena and SP) is time. 10 days worth plus whatever it takes you to relevel your clan to 5. In the long run, it really isn't that restrictive (except for the one-time shot). If you already have the SP and adena handy, you'd be back to level 5 in less than a day.
Look at Sir E if you need an example of how your point should have been expressed.
LOL again.
That would be a fine way of expressing how my proposal to transfer clan leadership should be considered.
However, the fact that I am in opposition to clan leadership being transferable at all sort-of nullifies that whole escapade before it could begin.
I have already expressed why I don't believe clan leadership should be transferable, both echoing the words of another poster and offering some additional elements that offer some complicatioins to a proposed clan transfer.
Everything beyond that is your attempt to draw me into your character-attack melodrama.
I'll pass.
Thus, my opinion on the topic of this post stands as I have already written it... both as a matter of game mechanics (something that can be hypothesized) and as a matter of the spirit of the clan institution, a matter of opinion.
Now before one suggests that I am an unswayable goat, I have to say that my first reaction to the post was "yeah, clan transference would be a great thing." However, reading on, I gained a different perspective that spoke to my sense of commitment and honor, and in the end, that overruled convenience for me.
Therefore it is no longer a matter of whether the methods you propose are better/worse than the methods Sir E proposes. It is a matter of my belief that any method undermines the institution altogether.
But by all means, toss insults my way. It strengthens your arguments.
I agree Sir E time is all you are requiring (in addition to the original requirements.)
The only parts I thought were too restrictive were:
2. Leadership may only be transfered once for a clan. (Makes sense now, but what about 3 years from now?)
3. Clan delevels to level 1 on transfer. (I think the leader-to-be should have to sacrafice the sp, adena and questing time before transfer as opposed to after.)
Quay- you said all that to say "I dont think it should be allowed." Good job, you sure put me in my place. Stop saying you dont want to do something while you do it. It's degrading that you would think I would let you get away with that.
The only parts I thought were too restrictive were:
2. Leadership may only be transfered once for a clan. (Makes sense now, but what about 3 years from now?)
To be honest, this is part of my no transfer bias. If it is something that happens often, perhaps dissolving the clan is best.
3. Clan delevels to level 1 on transfer. (I think the leader-to-be should have to sacrafice the sp, adena and questing time before transfer as opposed to after.)
I can go back and forth on this. I think re-doing the level 4 and 5 quests can be good for the clan but probably not necessary.
well it wasnt supposed to be complicated.
all the people who said "o u swore ownership to that person, and a clan isnt a clan if that leader quits the game" WTH
ur being stupid. we just want the freakin option to assign a new leader, i know most of the clannies in my clan in RL
if u start a new clan, the alliance falls. u cant get the same name its a waste of time and adena
rember lvl 5 clan is not undertaken by just the leader
but by all the clannies
as for the people supporting my idea TY. this is an option that should have been in place a while ago, also where is the option for co-leader?NC soft, u guys really didnt think to much with this clan thing did you?
If a clan is completely gone the name can be reused, right? I assumed that row of the database was deleted once the clan was completely dissolved.
If the clan is going to get delevelled back down to lvl 1 then why bother to transfer it in the first place?
I thought the whole point of the idea was that the OP didn't want to have to waste the SP/XP/time to do all the quests and rebuild the clan?
I don't like the idea of a clan transfer from the standpoint that the original leader sacrificed so much to get it and the time to do the quests. I just see the possible abuse as being far too great.
The clan is still the tightest unit in L2 and it seems that if the founder and owner is gone then the clan is gone as well. Its assumed by the system that the clan is a dictatorship (however benevolent) and once that person is gone it seems that their organization is dead as well.
I understand the argument from the 'I wish it was easy' crowd but why should this be any different from anything else in the game?
No, the whole idea is that they don't want to have to keep their members in row for the ten day dissolvement phase (which they should), they don't want to lose their clan hall or castle (which they should) and that they want to hand over the CWH hassle free (which they should not be able to do).
I'll say it again - in Aden, the clan is the leader. Whether your leader is only one in name, he still carries the whole responsibility, and that can not simply be transfered.
Getting a clan is more than an investment of SP, adena and questing time. It's an investment of charisma, energy and skill as a leader.
I don't feel just handing the people who elected to trust you as a leader should be possible - it's not like you'd nominate a replacement if you wanted to quit being your best friend's friend, and as such, you wouldn't nominate a replacement when you leave your clan.
... alternatively, you could make different versions of the clan structure (maybe making a different clan level 4 quest?). Say:
1. The feudal clan of today, which has a non-exchangable leader.
2. A more "democratic" version, which in addition to being able to change the leader based on votes can have more members, but (since it doesn't have just one person responsible for all) have no place in the Kingdom of Aden's political structure and thus can neither own a castle nor a clan hall.
3. A trade company, which - for example - can own a shop instead of a clan hall, can't have a castle and maybe have specialized members-only "blacksmith" NPCs with the shop, which operate as extremly cheap craft shops for basic materials.
4. A pirate crew with a ship. :cool:
... and so on.
Now, do I want to have the pirate ship, or be the leader of the first Dwarven Aden Trading Company ...? Decisions, decisions ...
That is your opinion. Look up the word if it's not in your vocabulary.
all the people who said "o u swore ownership to that person, and a clan isnt a clan if that leader quits the game" WTH
ur being stupid. we just want the freakin option to assign a new leader, i know most of the clannies in my clan in RL
if u start a new clan, the alliance falls. u cant get the same name its a waste of time and adena
Too bad, then. Perhaps since you know all of these people in real life, you should've chosen to follow a better leader. Just becuase you think it should be easy and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it should change. I completely believe that clan leadership behaves the way that the game designers intended.
rember lvl 5 clan is not undertaken by just the leader
but by all the clannies
There are lots of things in this game that work that way. Do you believe then that if I help my clan achieve level 5 that I should be allowed to be booted from the clan? After all, I helped.
as for the people supporting my idea TY. this is an option that should have been in place a while ago, also where is the option for co-leader?NC soft, u guys really didnt think to much with this clan thing did you?
Basically you're saying that only your opinion matters and everyone else can just [censored]? Well then, I was flexible on this matter before but you completely swayed me away from the idea.
The only parts I thought were too restrictive were:
2. Leadership may only be transfered once for a clan. (Makes sense now, but what about 3 years from now?)
To be honest, this is part of my no transfer bias. If it is something that happens often, perhaps dissolving the clan is best.
3. Clan delevels to level 1 on transfer. (I think the leader-to-be should have to sacrafice the sp, adena and questing time before transfer as opposed to after.)
I can go back and forth on this. I think re-doing the level 4 and 5 quests can be good for the clan but probably not necessary.
i think you had some good ideas about what it would take to change leader, it shouldnt just be click a button and its done, but i think it would be enough to lower the level of the clan to 3, to rais a clan from 1 - 3 is a piece of cake so it wouldnt realy matter. but they should absolutly have to take on the 4 and 5 quests again.
My opinion, WTH dude, how do governments work?
when we change presidents the country doesnt FALL APART, ur just being stupid. this idea should have been in the **** game a long time ago. as for choosing a better leader, umm people move on with their lives, people quit games, its that simple. i dont think it should so hard to change a leader, what is so bad with it, how would could u misuse this? you know how many other games this system of leader swap is implemented ALOT. and they work fine.
and its not my opinion, its a fact, the idea was an idea that was supposed to be very simple, u have just stressed that it should be complitcated. i dont know how people could dissagree with this.
you all must be a bunch of people who play 24/7 and have no lives. its a game, rules are supposed to be changed, Y to make the game better, so get off ur role playing [censored] and think dont say this is a bad idea, and back it up with some dumb points. cause so far everything u have said, is for people who play 24/7/365. people have lives a game should bend with it.
I've gotta agree with conan. I don't play this game to support the definition of what a clan is, I play it to have fun and get away from real life every once in a while. If there are ways to make a game better, then anyone who disagrees with it just because it's "not the way the game's supposed to be" or something, all they're doing is making things harder for everyone else. As a matter of fact, I think that's exactly why this forum was created, so NCSOFT could review gamers suggestions as to how to make the game better. This is a genuinely good idea that could benefit alot of people. I say go for it
My opinion, WTH dude, how do governments work?
when we change presidents the country doesnt FALL APART, ur just being stupid. this idea should have been in the **** game a long time ago. as for choosing a better leader, umm people move on with their lives, people quit games, its that simple. i dont think it should so hard to change a leader, what is so bad with it, how would could u misuse this? you know how many other games this system of leader swap is implemented ALOT. and they work fine.
and its not my opinion, its a fact, the idea was an idea that was supposed to be very simple, u have just stressed that it should be complitcated. i dont know how people could dissagree with this.
you all must be a bunch of people who play 24/7 and have no lives. its a game, rules are supposed to be changed, Y to make the game better, so get off ur role playing [censored] and think dont say this is a bad idea, and back it up with some dumb points. cause so far everything u have said, is for people who play 24/7/365. people have lives a game should bend with it.
Yeah, look at the levels in my signature. Obviously I play 24/7, dumb ***. No, not everyone agrees with you about this. Let's see... NC doesn't. How do you like them apples. :)
When someone ask for an easy way for something, like changing the leader of a clan should be easy, I always ask myself "Do these peoples play the same game I play?".
Nothing in this game is easy: getting money, leveling, just hunting mobs, pvp, crafting, getting mats, enchanting even the controls aren't easy!
Why a part as important as clan leader should be easy to change is beyond me.
I've read these words since I started, now is my time to say them :
Lineage is an hardcore game, want something easy, go play WoW.
Hey, that kind of felt good....
I'll had something, in Guild Wars you could change the Leader of a clan with a couple of clicks, but people were using that as a scam. People were making a clan, buying a clan Hall (any clan can have one in GW but they costed a lot), they went in town shouting : "WTS Clan with Clan hall". If you wanted to buy, they put you in the clan, you gave them the money, but instead of making you leader, they boot you off the clan. They have your money, you have nothing. Now they wait and start again.
In a game like L2 were scamming is "legal", if changing clan leader was easy as some people seems to want, we would se a lot of this scam.
Now, do I thing a clan should be able to change leader, yes.
Do I think it should be easy, no.
Yeah, look at the levels in my signature. Obviously I play 24/7, dumb ***. No, not everyone agrees with you about this. Let's see... NC doesn't. How do you like them apples. :)
uhh, look at ur post count, my account for L2 is from 2002, guess what im lvl 55 pally. i play this game for entertainment, not as a way of life.
as for the NC soft comment, lol, NC soft wont listen to anything, buddy, they do what they want to. so guess what NC soft hasn't even heard my idea or the same idea of thousands of other people, y cause they dont read this. how u like them apples. ;)
Now, do I thing a clan should be able to change leader, yes.
Do I think it should be easy, no.
ok i realise it shouldnt be easy, say they have to go threw a test and then members vote on who they think should be leader. the point is it should have been implemented in the game, im not laying down the rules and say there should be a button to push that makes a new leader, i just saying how every hard or easy they want to make it go for it, just GIVE US THE OPTION TO CHANGE LEADERS.
:cool:
Here, I modified there rules SirE posted to show how I think changing Leadership should work.
1. Clan must be level 5 to transfer leadership.
2. Clan must not be at war.
3. Castle owning clans, cannot change leader.
4. The new leader must have been in the clan for more than 10 days.
5. All members must be asked by the old leader or the future leader if they accept the change.
6. All members must answer that they accept (this is after all, a clan decision)
7. The leadership cannot be changed if a member just quitted or was booted (so the leader cannot just boot a member that don't want the change)
8. The leadership can be changed more than 1 time, but the cost is higher at each new time.*
9. The members of the clan must participate in the Clan Leadership Quest.**
10. Transfer takes 10 days to complete.
11. During transfer period, no members may be added or removed. Individual members may leave of their own accord. If pending leader leaves, transfer stops.
12. During Tranfert period, the clan cannot acces Clan Warehouse, since there is no leader at that time
13. Clan Hall owning clans loose the benefit of the Clan Hall during the tranfert period, the hall will remain theirs as long as there is enough money to pay for it in the Clan Hall WH.
14. During transfert period, the clan cannot accept or declare war.
15. If transfer is interrupted, another request cannot be made for 5 days.
16. After the change, the clan remains level 5
*The first time the cost is the same as the one for the first leader, adena and SP wise.
Each time after that the cost goes up.
**The quest should involve every members of the clan. Ex :
Sieged by orcs
The clan members must defend a special castle, while the old leader and future leader must explore a cave to find an item. The quest is finished when they get that item in the trone room of the castle. If the members can't stop the orcs to get to the trone room, or the leaders can't get the item, the quest is lost and cannot be restarted for the next 5 days.
Yeah, look at the levels in my signature. Obviously I play 24/7, dumb ***. No, not everyone agrees with you about this. Let's see... NC doesn't. How do you like them apples. :)
uhh, look at ur post count, my account for L2 is from 2002, guess what im lvl 55 pally. i play this game for entertainment, not as a way of life.
as for the NC soft comment, lol, NC soft wont listen to anything, buddy, they do what they want to. so guess what NC soft hasn't even heard my idea or the same idea of thousands of other people, y cause they dont read this. how u like them apples. ;)
You really are thick, aren't you? Here, I'm typing this very slowly so you might understand what I'm saying. NCSoft probably doesn't care what you're saying because they did it right the way it is. Stop and think for a minute that the developers, like many of us here, do not want clan leader transfers. Cry and stamp your feet like a 2 year old all you want it doesn't change that. Just because you think it should be one way doesn't mean they do or made a "broken" system to begin with.
Yeah, look at the levels in my signature. Obviously I play 24/7, dumb ***. No, not everyone agrees with you about this. Let's see... NC doesn't. How do you like them apples. :)
uhh, look at ur post count, my account for L2 is from 2002, guess what im lvl 55 pally. i play this game for entertainment, not as a way of life.
as for the NC soft comment, lol, NC soft wont listen to anything, buddy, they do what they want to. so guess what NC soft hasn't even heard my idea or the same idea of thousands of other people, y cause they dont read this. how u like them apples. ;)
You really are thick, aren't you? Here, I'm typing this very slowly so you might understand what I'm saying. NCSoft probably doesn't care what you're saying because they did it right the way it is. Stop and think for a minute that the developers, like many of us here, do not want clan leader transfers. Cry and stamp your feet like a 2 year old all you want it doesn't change that. Just because you think it should be one way doesn't mean they do or made a "broken" system to begin with.
lol
man, u dont get it i dont think, this game was release BROKEN, it was still in beta when freakin C1 hit. NC soft doesnt care about game play to much, more about graphics and senery(sp?). money means more to them than this game.
My opinion, WTH dude, how do governments work?
when we change presidents the country doesnt FALL APART, ur just being stupid.
Learn history, please. Countries did fall apart when the leader died, stepped down or was forced to step down. Quite often so. See for example the Frankish Kingdom, 843; Poland, 1138; or even the Holy Roman Empire, 1806.
13. Clan Hall owning clans loose the benefit of the Clan Hall during the tranfert period, the hall will remain theirs as long as there is enough money to pay for it in the Clan Hall WH.
Getting a clan out of a clan hall is difficult enough. If they feel they ought to reform, they must lose the hall. IMO. :p
13. Clan Hall owning clans loose the benefit of the Clan Hall during the tranfert period, the hall will remain theirs as long as there is enough money to pay for it in the Clan Hall WH.
Getting a clan out of a clan hall is difficult enough. If they feel they ought to reform, they must lose the hall. IMO. :p
The reason why I think the clan should keep the hall is that I don't see a lot of reasons to change the leader of clan, except to keep their clan hall. When you don't have a clan hall, I don't see much reasons not to just disband and start a new clan.
But you're right, having them loose the clan hall, would make people thinking twice about changing the leader, you don't do it just for fun every week, and it could give the chance to others clan to get a clan hall.
Yeah, look at the levels in my signature. Obviously I play 24/7, dumb ***. No, not everyone agrees with you about this. Let's see... NC doesn't. How do you like them apples. :)
uhh, look at ur post count, my account for L2 is from 2002, guess what im lvl 55 pally. i play this game for entertainment, not as a way of life.
as for the NC soft comment, lol, NC soft wont listen to anything, buddy, they do what they want to. so guess what NC soft hasn't even heard my idea or the same idea of thousands of other people, y cause they dont read this. how u like them apples. ;)
You really are thick, aren't you? Here, I'm typing this very slowly so you might understand what I'm saying. NCSoft probably doesn't care what you're saying because they did it right the way it is. Stop and think for a minute that the developers, like many of us here, do not want clan leader transfers. Cry and stamp your feet like a 2 year old all you want it doesn't change that. Just because you think it should be one way doesn't mean they do or made a "broken" system to begin with.
lol
man, u dont get it i dont think, this game was release BROKEN, it was still in beta when freakin C1 hit. NC soft doesnt care about game play to much, more about graphics and senery(sp?). money means more to them than this game.
And obviously, you don't get it. Just because it doesn't do what you want doesn't make it broken. Deal or quit.
My opinion, WTH dude, how do governments work?
when we change presidents the country doesnt FALL APART, ur just being stupid.
Learn history, please. Countries did fall apart when the leader died, stepped down or was forced to step down. Quite often so. See for example the Frankish Kingdom, 843; Poland, 1138; or even the Holy Roman Empire, 1806.
they fell apart, y? not because the leader stepped down, but because the members of the governments got lazy or wanted it to fall apart.
u might want to read up on ur history, just because 1 person the leader steps down or dies, doesnt mean it was completly his/her fault.
our clan is not about to fall apart or break up because of 1 person, we are strong and ready for a new leader.
Learn history, please. Countries did fall apart when the leader died, stepped down or was forced to step down. Quite often so. See for example the Frankish Kingdom, 843; Poland, 1138; or even the Holy Roman Empire, 1806.
they fell apart, y? not because the leader stepped down, but because the members of the governments got lazy or wanted it to fall apart.
u might want to read up on ur history, just because 1 person the leader steps down or dies, doesnt mean it was completly his/her fault.
There wasn't a government in the Middle Age's Frankish Kindgom, and neither was there one in Poland. There was just one person, the Emperor in the former case and the King in the latter. Additionaly, the government had practically no say in the Holy Roman Empire, and so his actions and motives were of no consequence at the time it broke up.
Again, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. We have a few thousand years of human history, and it's full of people (mostly men) of great power who, after their demise, left a power vacuum which let their empires crumble and fall apart. Does the name "Ögedei Khan" ring a bell?
our clan is not about to fall apart or break up because of 1 person, we are strong and ready for a new leader.
I don't see the problem, then. Your clan and his new leader are obviously more than capable to reform the clan under him or her without any help from NCsoft, right? Just do it, then, and stop being a lazy government (to use your own words).
well, i can agree and disagree with some of the above posts... clan halls are not numerous enough to be passed around as was suggested, neither are castles. as for reforming, perhaps a member can be names as a successor to the current leader, and should the leaders account be inactive for a certain period of time leadership be passed to that person... this would cover banned leaders, leaders who left game for another game, or quit for another reason... and would probably deter any easily-changed clans right? maybe an account thats inactive for 1month? it cant be so hard to tell when an account is logged into, can it? i know a few clan names that are pretty much lost because thier leaders didnt dissolve before quitting or being banned, since NCsoft doesnt clear unused accounts or characters they are completely unavailable for anyone else.
Learn history, please. Countries did fall apart when the leader died, stepped down or was forced to step down. Quite often so. See for example the Frankish Kingdom, 843; Poland, 1138; or even the Holy Roman Empire, 1806.
they fell apart, y? not because the leader stepped down, but because the members of the governments got lazy or wanted it to fall apart.
u might want to read up on ur history, just because 1 person the leader steps down or dies, doesnt mean it was completly his/her fault.
There wasn't a government in the Middle Age's Frankish Kindgom, and neither was there one in Poland. There was just one person, the Emperor in the former case and the King in the latter. Additionaly, the government had practically no say in the Holy Roman Empire, and so his actions and motives were of no consequence at the time it broke up.
Again, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. We have a few thousand years of human history, and it's full of people (mostly men) of great power who, after their demise, left a power vacuum which let their empires crumble and fall apart. Does the name "Ögedei Khan" ring a bell?
our clan is not about to fall apart or break up because of 1 person, we are strong and ready for a new leader.
I don't see the problem, then. Your clan and his new leader are obviously more than capable to reform the clan under him or her without any help from NCsoft, right? Just do it, then, and stop being a lazy government (to use your own words).
well if u want to throw that in there, then we have pretty much traveled past the time lineage 2 is set in then, havent we.
as for us making a new clan, thats stupid, its not being lazy, its called being smart and reorganizing. whats happening here is we have stepped into a wall that L2 hasnt moved forward yet. if the option was there which it should have been in the first place, we would have had a new leader, one that was agreed on by the active clan members, and everyone would be happy, but what is happening is our clan is at a stand still because of a simple issue that could be fixxed easily with a few lines of code.
the whole issue is this, why have to reorganize and lose SP and adena, just to start over with a new clan, and a new leader, its not the way the game needs to be run, i dont see bad things coming from this at all, because if clans are organized enough to take castles and buy clan halls, then i think they would be organized enough to elect a new clan leader. gathering funds and organizign a proper seige on a castle isnt the easiest of task.
well if u want to throw that in there, then we have pretty much traveled past the time lineage 2 is set in then, havent we.
No, we haven't. Frankish Kingdom, 843; Poland, 1138; Ögedei Khan, 1186-1241. That's all in the early Middle Ages. L2 is set in a feux-medieval world. so I'd say I'm quite right, as far as the "time lineage 2 is set in" goes.
At least you're admiting now that changing the leader of a country or state wasn't easy in the part of human history L2 is most closely resembling, and thus there's no reason it should be easy for clans in the game, either. :cool:
well if u want to throw that in there, then we have pretty much traveled past the time lineage 2 is set in then, havent we.
No, we haven't. Frankish Kingdom, 843; Poland, 1138; Ögedei Khan, 1186-1241. That's all in the early Middle Ages. L2 is set in a feux-medieval world. so I'd say I'm quite right, as far as the "time lineage 2 is set in" goes.
At least you're admiting now that changing the leader of a country or state wasn't easy in the part of human history L2 is most closely resembling, and thus there's no reason it should be easy for clans in the game, either. :cool:
I never said it should be easy, i've said the idea should have been in place for clans to hand down leaders. i dont care if takes more time and so more SP and adena, i just want the **** option, this was supposed to be something that was simple, and people turned it into a complex deal by saying its freakin worthless idea, and its going to ruin the game.
but u do agree that the option should be there correct?
I don't think it's a worthless idea. Heck I think it has a LOT of merit, especially for those people in an otherwise great clan whose clan leader has become inactive, injured, (dead), Bannernated, what have you.
That said, after considering the the other factors and the spirit of the notion of the clan leader's job to rally other players around him (as opposed to inheriting someone else's charisma/leadership) I must say that I personally am not in favor of the idea.
But the idea is not without merit or very solid points.
I don't think it's a worthless idea. Heck I think it has a LOT of merit, especially for those people in an otherwise great clan whose clan leader has become inactive, injured, (dead), Bannernated, what have you.
I still think that the original leader would have to be online otherwise it wouldn't work. So, those that are "involuntarily inactive" are out of luck.
I agree that the option could be there. Not should, mind you - I'm fine with the current situation, too. But if a leader change is to be implemented, it has to be true both to the intent of the clan system in L2, and to the game itself.
Similarly to overenchanting, you could try it, but the odds should be against you. And if you fail, you lose everything the clan worked for - and, worse, your enemies might get richer from it (say, inheriting both your clan hall and the contents of the clan warehouse ...).
well losing clan hall and castle yea, but contents of warehouse, thats not going to work cause they could just have the leader open his account up pull all the stuff out and then try it.
changing a clan leader is something that all the members would be agreeing on too, so it would be welcomed among the leader and the clan members, not somethign that is forcefully placed apon the clan to harm it.
Let's become a democarcy! (Abnormal - Clan Quest)
To start this Quest meet with CEO Anybody in SomeTown.
He will the tell you that first of all you have to pay 500k Adena,
with everyone in your clan. Oh yeah, the CEO also tells you that
you need to have a full Clan (all spots taken). As if money would satisfy him in any good, he also wants 1,000,000 SP from everyone in the clan and also 5,000,000 SP from the one that wants to become the new Leader.
You now have to get his diapers from talking Island, bring them to rune and then go to the Altar of Rites and talk to Arkenia, she has some special flower perfum.
In order to create the perfum you need to get 25,000 Thread, 15,000 Suede and 1,000 Blacksmith Frames. Take this to Master Toma, he will then send the new leader out to kill 1,000 Honey Bears. As the Honey Bears are dead, Master Toma creates a hydraulic jack with all the stuff you brought to him.
Now you need some special ingredients, a Drop of Antharas Blood, a Feather of Baium, a scale of Valakas and 15 elpy ears.
You are now able to combine them to create the perfume.
To do so, go to Hardins Village and talk to Hardin, he will send you to Ivory Tower, you get the perfume there.
An Ancient Creature in the Elven Ruins knows how to correctly apply the perfume to the diapers, as you approach to him, everyone gets teleported to the 4 sepulchers, all of you will get killed now and respawn in the elven ruins.
You now have the perfumed diaper and bring it back to Anybody in SomeTown.
The Clans Leader has now changed.
---
Due to a database error you loose everything inside the CWH and alll CH/Castles...
Oh and btw during the whole Quest period noone is allowed to use Gatekeepers.
To get to Dwarven Village, you need to complete another Quest for a Special SoE ;)
---
Excuse me being sarcastic...
I'd love to change the lead of my little lvl 4 Clan to another Char so the "Leader" can be free to join any clan, but it's not meant to be that way... *Sigh*
^^ congrats u typed out a bunch of crap, when u could have said, u didnt like the idea, people still havent given me any good reasons why this shouldnt be in the game.
^^ congrats u typed out a bunch of crap, when u could have said, u didnt like the idea, people still havent given me any good reasons why this shouldnt be in the game.
Actually I just wanted to point out that either it will degrade into
a waste of time and money, because there wont be an easy
"Now you are leader" option so that people can't "Sell" Clans to
anyone...
As I said I'd love to be able to transfer, I like my "GuardingAngels"
Clan, but I don't want my SH 2 be the leader...
WTS Level 5 Clan 100$...
I never wanna see that...
People have given you a slew of good reasons. You're just ignoring them.
To summarise:
1.) Clan membership is established as loyalty to leader, not as loyalty to the clan. That loyalty can not simply be "signed over".
2.) Clan dissolvement is one of the few ways to get a clan out of a clan hall. This must be protected, as clan halls are too static as is.
3.) The leader makes a great sacrifice to raise his clan to where it is that goes far beyond questing. Recruitment, peacekeeping, organisation for raids and PvP, economic concerns. It would be impossible to quantify this effort and have the new clan leader re-do it.
4.) The dissolvement and reforming time is, much like the 5 day penalty, an opportunity to consider where one's loyalties lie. If an aspiring clan leader can not keep in touch with all his members throughout this time, although he has them handed to him on a platter (i.e. has it much easier than the original leader), he does not deserve leadership.
5.) The items in the CWH are entrusted to the clan leader and the clan leader only. He can barter off this trade no more than you should just go lending out items you borrowed from someone else*.
* Of course there are people who do this - it's still incredibly rude, and mechanics shouldn't support it.
Thinking about it a little more, I could see something like that working:
The current leader steps down. Now, everyone currently in the clan (that includes the former leader) and everyone who recently was in the clan can claim to be the new leader or support one such claim. All the new sub-clans are at war with each other, and the one scoring most points after a set period of time (say, a month) wins the control. Everyone undecided is out of the clan now.
Oh, and you can bring outside help for this inter-clan war, so this guy you booted two weeks ago could ally with the biggest zerg alliance on the server and take over your clan, too.
That's how such things were decided in the Middle Ages. :)
W/E I'm done with this, some how the the reasons you guys have brought up for it being a bad idea, are all pretty much minor or could be fixxed easily. I'm going to laugh when this option shows up in C5.
And yet, despite being supposedly minor or easily fixed, you have not proposed a single fix despite the rather drastic consequences that have been lined out and which this sort of change might have.
It's not impossible that NCSoft would do this - but however they do it, if it's worthwhile at all, it'll be a bad move.
A clan isn't an union. It's way more feudalistic than that. A clan is a bunch of people swearing an oath of allegiance to a single person, the leader. If that leader steps down, "dies" or you lose confidence in them and a new leader emerges to take his or her place, you'll have to swear that oath to him or her anew - in game terms, make a new clan.
For one, a clan that has made it to lvl 5 is normally a pretty strong, clan, what we are dealing with here isnt something that could do harm, but since ive posted up that all is minor problems, ill fix this, one. Clan leaders who decide to hand down their power of the clan must hand down the power to a person who has been in the clan since it started LVL, that person also must be no lower than 3 lvls below the leader, I.E. leader is LVL 63, new leader cant be lower than 60
thats fixxed.
Most other games allow leaders to step down. Making another clan isn't an option when you want to keep your current name etc.
hmm thats a good reason, thnx Akirah
No, if the clan leader leaves, the clan is gone. That is the way it should be. It makes sense. If people fear that everybody would leave if players had to disband a clan and build up a new one, then it was a bad clan to begin with, anyway (or the new chosen leader-to-be simply is not popular enough to make people wait a few days/do the quests with him).
lets start with this one, a clan is an organization of members who are dedicated to one leader, a leader not to a specific person. If a clan likes the name as stated above, then why would they take the time, money and SP. To wait the period for the clan to dissolve(now i remind u, u cant make a new clan with the same name if the leader isnt their to tear down the old one) , then lvl the clan back to lvl 5, then remake the alliance.
And, as was pointed out, being able to hand over leadership would mean that you could have somebody else do the clan quests for you and then just take over. For example, farmers could lvl up clans on demand, invite the new "leader" and hand over the clan to him, all for RL money.
solved in first "problem"
They could easily make the cost of handing the clan over the SP needed by the original leader as well as some sort of quest item for completing the Clan level quests.
This would make the leader-to-be go through the same things the original leader did, but you would not lose the name and any time associated with disbanding/reforming.
another good point that was ignored, and people keep piling up the so called bad. lets continue. thnx for that Kutjr, thnx for using ur head.
That doesn't negate the fine points made by _Akjosch_. Making a clan is designed to be a sacrifice of time, xp, sp, adena in order to legitimize the organization for what should be dedicated members of a family (clan).
While there have been times that I (like many players) would have been glad to be able to use such a clan-transfer feature, with the perspective of sacrifice and earning the clan tag... I have to agree.
No Insta-clan option for me. Thanks
I think Kutjr got u on this one.
NEXT
And of course, keeping the name is another notion that I find odd - it's not the same clan anymore if it does not have the same leader.
I'll keep that in mind next time i go vote.
Wow.
Not sure why it has to be so complicated.
I guess the way I am looking at it, it's not really that big of a deal. A clan can reorganize fairly easily now with the amount of SP the typical player has at higher levels. As a clan leader already, I had over 6 mil extra SP after buying all my skills this last level.
Just make it so the new leader has to go through all of the things the old leader did, but instead of making a new clan, he assumes leadership of the old one.
I'm not really seeing a downside to this.
Man Kutjr ur on a role
I'm not following you except to think you just want to be able to transfer leadership willy-nilly as you see fit. I think that's a bad idea. There's a reason that clan leaders are the only ones allowed to perform certain actions.
so far its just been called a bad idea. hmm no reasons yet besides the one i fixxed already.
It was relevant - what I'm saying is that if you have what it takes, you can do the transfer, and you should have to.
If you don't have what it takes, you can't have the transfer.
I personally think clan names should be blocked after being dissovled, too, so clans can't attempt to reform as "exactly the same". It isn't the same if it's not with the same leader.
Y DO U KEEP SAYING THIS, ONE PERSON DOESNT START A CLAN, A BUNCH OF PEOPLE DO!!! governments dont get put together by one guy, he has people who help him/her.
NEXT
Now, if the "new" leader of the "transferred" clan has to quest and give up the same amount of SP, Adena etc.... why not just dissolve and do it all again? The 7 day wait?
Well there's more to it than that. For example, maybe you own a clan hall or *gulp* a castle. Then it isn't the same sacrifice of that person who had to start from scratch.
dunno y but i dont think a clan leader is going to go inactive or quit while they own castle, as for the 7 day wait, well cant get same name, have to waste more adena, have to reorganize under a new alliance name, man i could go on forever.
So yes, all those things are missing from the equation. It isn't the same thing to just extract adena and sp from the "new" clan leader. he's getting a free-ride in many aspects in a clan ownership transfer scenario.
well instead of staying the idea is crap u could have built on it, but thats cool i fixxed the problems so far.
o yea and 1 more thing...
/unsigned still despite the novel you will write and all the exposition that will fluff it up.
doesnt this sound just like what u said KUTJR was in ur hissy fit u said that he is thick headed???
hmmm...
NEXT
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case. LOL
y cause Kutjr completely said ur points were wrong?
ok ill let u two duke it out... on another thread.
Well then you're just talking about a matter of convenience. Personally, I don't think it should be convenient to transfer leadership of a clan. It's a big deal. It should take some "inconvenience" to do. Now, like you said, you have all of the tools to reform then clan, but it's inconvenient and takes time. Why shouldn't it?
ok so we have gotten down to it should be sorta difficult, i think my top post has that covered. cant hand over a clan to a lvl 1.
Before we move on, Lets see, we got 1 problem, its been solved, and then from there on we have it should be difficult, again ok, sounds good. then we have 1 guy bashing the other, ok lets continue shall we?
To be honest, this is part of my no transfer bias. If it is something that happens often, perhaps dissolving the clan is best.
our clan has been around for about 3 years, or so, cant remember when they put inplace "clans". good points tho SirE. you have been carrying this a good ways to say that it should be implemented but not easy and a little bit time consuming.
If a clan is completely gone the name can be reused, right? I assumed that row of the database was deleted once the clan was completely dissolved.
nope srry torg, think of this what if that leader goes inactive and the clan name is stuck with him/her forever. in our clan, 10 of decided what the name would be, and then a few more decided the name of the alliance.
No, the whole idea is that they don't want to have to keep their members in row for the ten day dissolvement phase (which they should), they don't want to lose their clan hall or castle (which they should) and that they want to hand over the CWH hassle free (which they should not be able to do).
Ok, we got dont want to lose Clan Hall and castle, ok, lets throw up this rule, a clan can only change hands when the ownership of it, is zero. no clan hall no castle, nothing. it is back to the bare minimum. another problem solved.
I'll say it again - in Aden, the clan is the leader. Whether your leader is only one in name, he still carries the whole responsibility, and that can not simply be transfered.
Getting a clan is more than an investment of SP, adena and questing time. It's an investment of charisma, energy and skill as a leader.
I don't feel just handing the people who elected to trust you as a leader should be possible - it's not like you'd nominate a replacement if you wanted to quit being your best friend's friend, and as such, you wouldn't nominate a replacement when you leave your clan.
this isnt a best friends friend, wth does that have to do with changing the leader of a clan? i dont know what clan u are with but, creating our clan we all pitched in, adena and time. a clan is a group of people not 1 person. cause without the memembers there is no clan.
Getting a clan out of a clan hall is difficult enough. If they feel they ought to reform, they must lose the hall. IMO.
got that covered.
Actually I just wanted to point out that either it will degrade into
a waste of time and money, because there wont be an easy
"Now you are leader" option so that people can't "Sell" Clans to
anyone...
As I said I'd love to be able to transfer, I like my "GuardingAngels"
Clan, but I don't want my SH 2 be the leader...
WTS Level 5 Clan 100$...
I never wanna see that...
also got that covered.
People have given you a slew of good reasons. You're just ignoring them.
ive counted 2
To summarise:
1.) Clan membership is established as loyalty to leader, not as loyalty to the clan. That loyalty can not simply be "signed over".
got that covered.
2.) Clan dissolvement is one of the few ways to get a clan out of a clan hall. This must be protected, as clan halls are too static as is.
got that one covered too, only way for clans to change leadership is for them not to own anything, I.E. halls or castle. ect.
3.) The leader makes a great sacrifice to raise his clan to where it is that goes far beyond questing. Recruitment, peacekeeping, organisation for raids and PvP, economic concerns. It would be impossible to quantify this effort and have the new clan leader re-do it.
uhh y? this isnt very clear, your saying that no-one else can or would be able to step up to the job, and carry on the leadership??? So its better for the clan to just DIE off.. and all the work the members and the clan leader put into, are gone.
to me i would rather build a clan up, then let someone else try and carry on what i have done, than rather see the clan just die. I've got pride, but i know when to let my pride die off.
4.) The dissolvement and reforming time is, much like the 5 day penalty, an opportunity to consider where one's loyalties lie. If an aspiring clan leader can not keep in touch with all his members throughout this time, although he has them handed to him on a platter (i.e. has it much easier than the original leader), he does not deserve leadership.
ahh, but ur still forgetting 1 thing, clan memembers if they dont like the new leader, HAVE THE OPTION TO LEAVE. let them leave, if they want to no one is stopping them.
5.) The items in the CWH are entrusted to the clan leader and the clan leader only. He can barter off this trade no more than you should just go lending out items you borrowed from someone else*.
well a clan works together, i scratch ur back u scratch mine. again i think many people tell the "noobs" to suck it up when they get scammed. if you have people in your clan who like to do this, i suppose u shouldnt be trusting them and kick them out immediatley, also why would the clan elect a scammer? i wouldnt. i would vote for the person who i think is fit to run the clan. and when i put stuff in the cWH i put it in there for people who need it. and the new leader who just got elected would use it for good and not go and sell it all for his prophet. remember now, people have elected cruel and crappy leaders, and those societies fall or have a bad couple of years, changing a leader may have this effect so people should use their common since and vote for the person who is eligible to run, and have them get elected. or the clan might fall apart, $H!T happens its a game remember.
* Of course there are people who do this - it's still incredibly rude, and mechanics shouldn't support it.
lets start with this one, a clan is an organization of members who are dedicated to one leader, a leader not to a specific person.
And that's where you're just wrong. A clan - in Lineage 2 - is an organization dedicated to a specific, single person. That person is the leader. In it, the games mimics how stuff was done in the Middle Ages, and for quite some time after that.
That's why you can neither change the leader, nor can the leader hand his position down to someone else (unless he gives him his account, that is). The person of the leader is the clan. The clan is that person, and only that person. L'etat c'est moi.
And with that, most of your argumentation falls flat.
^^ ok, for 1 it wasnt done like that in the middle ages, government manipulation was very great, religion played a large role in dictating what the government did, ever hear of the fuedel system?
and another thing, why the hell would we stick directly with history, for god sake we are killing dragons, lizard men, and trees that stomp on you. I think realism has been throw out the window a while back.
No, you didn't. I didn't read all of it, but you proceeded to ignore the points rather than replying to them. This is moving in a circle, I'm out. Please learn to read.
^^ ok, for 1 it wasnt done like that in the middle ages, government manipulation was very great, religion played a large role in dictating what the government did, ever hear of the fuedel system?
"Government" and "Middle Ages", again? We already established your ignorance on that matter, you don't really need to prove it any further.
and another thing, why the hell would we stick directly with history, for god sake we are killing dragons, lizard men, and trees that stomp on you. I think realism has been throw out the window a while back.
You're building a straw man. Nobody but you mentioned anything about realism.
The clan system was modelled after a feudal system from the Middle Ages. Any change to it has to fit that model, among other requirements. Your ideas and so-called "solutions" don't. Consequentially, they don't fit the Lineage 2 clan system.
Remember: L'etat c'est moi. The clan is the leader. The people in the clan swore allegiance to the leader, to that single person, not to the clan and not to the position of the leader. If there's a way to change a leader without dissolving the clan, it has to take that fact into account. For example, every clan member has to swear allegiance again, to the new leader, or leave the clan.
No, you didn't. I didn't read all of it, but you proceeded to ignore the points rather than replying to them. This is moving in a circle, I'm out. Please learn to read.
MalineII, you and I agree on this issue. But for all that is good, will you please cease with the idea that you are so much more learned than everyone elese and that others simply can't or choose not to comprehend. You do this almost every time someone disagrees with you.
That said you are correct. People have tirelessly explained why the FEEL that the clan system should not be made transferable.
To the OPs credit, he's gone a long way to modify the proposal to address many in-game mechanics issues related to the proposal.
But the underlying objection is that it is a violation of the spirit of the clan system. For those of us who value that spirit, the idea is a bust regardless of technicalities.
Loyalty, sacrifice, honor.. they are intangible things and simply cannot be replicated via tweaks to game mechanics.
Some people don't value those things, instead the taking a more mechanical FPS-esque approach to "winning" and their mindset is one that expedites their ability to gather and maintain control and/or to achieve victory.
This is a matter of philosophical difference and both sides can beat their heads against the wall, but there won't be an agreement on this.
Ultimately, the creators of the game would have to decide if such an idea fits their concept of the world of Lineage II.
YES IM BRINGING THIS BACK WHY?
Cause all those people who said this would never be implemented and if NCsoft wanted it they would have added it to the game along time ago.
WELL PEOPLE
C5 http://www.l2guru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34657
#3
READ IT AND WEAP.
3. The clan leader will be able to transfer ownership of the clan.
The clan leader must apply for a transfer at the NPC which handles clan business.
After a waiting period, the leader is changed.
(This will happen even if the server is down.)
During the waiting period, it is possible to cancel the transfer.
Hope all those people who didnt want to see leader transfer will understand why its good, and should have been part of the game before.
I see C5 being the fix L2 should have had long time ago.
There doesn't even appear to be any time penalty involved - it's just rotten. But then, C5 sort of breaks clans anyway, so that's fine.
PS: A bit belated, but EQ, I will say "I did not explain that properly" in the future if people are so touchy about "You don't understand what I'm saying", although it means the exactly same thing. If someone is replying with something that obviously has nothing to do with what I wrote and claim it is a resonse to it, you can't expect me to think they understood.
Hope all those people who didnt want to see leader transfer will understand why its good, and should have been part of the game before.
I see C5 being the fix L2 should have had long time ago.
No, I still don't agree with it but I'm not going to be a jerk about it either. L2 has done many questionable things before.
The good news is that there is a time penalty and that the leader must be the one doing the transfering. If he can't get online for whatever reason *cough*banned*cough* the clan is still SOL.
Hope all those people who didnt want to see leader transfer will understand why its good, and should have been part of the game before.
I see C5 being the fix L2 should have had long time ago.
No, I still don't agree with it but I'm not going to be a jerk about it either. L2 has done many questionable things before.
The good news is that there is a time penalty and that the leader must be the one doing the transfering. If he can't get online for whatever reason *cough*banned*cough* the clan is still SOL.
True but Your clan leader shouldnt have been banned in the first place, because people think first about the leader and how he acts, if the guy bots and gets banned, then the clan name is pretty much ruined.
True but Your clan leader shouldnt have been banned in the first place, because people think first about the leader and how he acts, if the guy bots and gets banned, then the clan name is pretty much ruined.
Agreed but one of the first times I saw this suggestion come up was exactly because of this.
The thing for me is that the only really good reason to get a transfer of clan leadership (of then a maximum of what, 30 or 40 people?) during C3 was the inability of an old clan leader to access the game any longer. This is not solved with this change.
If he knew in advance this would be happening (quitting), a reform would have presented little problem - of course with 120 people, that looks a little different than with 30 or 40, so I can see why the mechanics are necessary.
However, this opens up the possibility of buying high level clans with all those perks already bought (would you like farmers to farm reputation points in PvP like they farm raid bosses now, ganking anything in their way with 60 or 70 nukers?), and of course the pre-arranged sale (and thereby never-again needed auction) of clan halls.
All the prior problems also exist, those two just smoothly add themselves onto the list. I don't like it. I'm glad I'm tagless, even if it saps out my will to play the game.
The fact that something can be exploited doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
I can imagine that those who purchase ready-made high-level clans will be the outcasts of the server. News will spread, they'll be warred and/or declared KOS, and generally, life will be difficult.
Will this stop people from doing this? No. The threat of violence is rarely a good deterrent. But this change enables the good clans to take advantage as well.
Though I wonder if the full story is known, if NCSoft either hasn't stated or will, in the future, patch this system when Castles and Clan Halls are involved.
Here, I modified there rules SirE posted to show how I think changing Leadership should work.
1. Clan must be level 5 to transfer leadership.
2. Clan must not be at war.
3. Castle owning clans, cannot change leader.
4. The new leader must have been in the clan for more than 10 days.
5. All members must be asked by the old leader or the future leader if they accept the change.
6. All members must answer that they accept (this is after all, a clan decision)
7. The leadership cannot be changed if a member just quitted or was booted (so the leader cannot just boot a member that don't want the change)
8. The leadership can be changed more than 1 time, but the cost is higher at each new time.*
9. The members of the clan must participate in the Clan Leadership Quest.**
10. Transfer takes 10 days to complete.
11. During transfer period, no members may be added or removed. Individual members may leave of their own accord. If pending leader leaves, transfer stops.
12. During Tranfert period, the clan cannot acces Clan Warehouse, since there is no leader at that time
13. Clan Hall owning clans loose the benefit of the Clan Hall during the tranfert period, the hall will remain theirs as long as there is enough money to pay for it in the Clan Hall WH.
14. During transfert period, the clan cannot accept or declare war.
15. If transfer is interrupted, another request cannot be made for 5 days.
16. After the change, the clan remains level 5
*The first time the cost is the same as the one for the first leader, adena and SP wise.
Each time after that the cost goes up.
**The quest should involve every members of the clan. Ex :
Sieged by orcs
The clan members must defend a special castle, while the old leader and future leader must explore a cave to find an item. The quest is finished when they get that item in the trone room of the castle. If the members can't stop the orcs to get to the trone room, or the leaders can't get the item, the quest is lost and cannot be restarted for the next 5 days.
would like to add conans idea to this list, and one of my own. membership can only be transferred to one of the players that originally died in the level 4 clan quest. this limits the number of times it can be done, allows for only senior clan players to step up, and if they leave, you cant transfer [923]. also, castles should revert to NPCs since they are supposed to change hands often, while clan halls would be retained by the clan that transferred leadership, because re-aquiring a clan hall is a [923]. wonderful ideas, too bad NCSoft didnt use any of them, because they were once again more concerned with pleasing whiny players than improving the game itself. C7: dwarfs > nukers.
So major alliances having RB farmers in their alliance got them server-wide KoS on Teon, Erica, Lionna? From what I gather, people just shrugged and moved on, but I don't play there, so maybe the reaction was more violent than I thought.
I see the need for this with the 120 people clans, that doesn't mean I have to like the implications - just like I don't like the implication of 120 man clans, and I don't see why they need to exist.
i think maybe i meant level 3 quest. cant seem to find it but its the one where the three people have to go out and get the special ingredients to cure the poison on the leader. before these three get the ingredients they have to die.
i think maybe i meant level 3 quest. cant seem to find it but its the one where the three people have to go out and get the special ingredients to cure the poison on the leader. before these three get the ingredients they have to die.
it's lvl 4 and it is bugged so people don't always die like they should.
and as for farmers buying and selling clan halls, and buying and selling clans.
hows that possible, people arent going to join a clan cause a farmer wants them 2, and if farmers bought a clan hall, it would be just like someone buying adena from them, and then buying the clan hall themselves, farmers wont mess with it, and neither will the people who buy adena.
not going to happen.
Take some time to think it through - it's not that difficult to reform a clan, people have been doing it forever.
In this case, all the farmer has to do is win the clan hall, and then ebay it off - to a specific, targeted person. That person (the future leader of that clan) will then buy the transfer of clan power (there's no guarantee that payment will arive, but there never is with RMT, so I don't see this holding people back). The farmer invites him, changes leader, and leaves the clan once that is done.
The new clan hall owner either reforms his clan by reinviting them or moves to Giran and does a simple !Clan with Aden Hall recruiting 60+.
i think maybe i meant level 3 quest. cant seem to find it but its the one where the three people have to go out and get the special ingredients to cure the poison on the leader. before these three get the ingredients they have to die.
it's lvl 4 and it is bugged so people don't always die like they should.
Yep. I didn't die like I should have. :eek:
Gladiators must just be too tough to die from that quest.
Take some time to think it through - it's not that difficult to reform a clan, people have been doing it forever.
In this case, all the farmer has to do is win the clan hall, and then ebay it off - to a specific, targeted person. That person (the future leader of that clan) will then buy the transfer of clan power (there's no guarantee that payment will arive, but there never is with RMT, so I don't see this holding people back). The farmer invites him, changes leader, and leaves the clan once that is done.
The new clan hall owner either reforms his clan by reinviting them or moves to Giran and does a simple !Clan with Aden Hall recruiting 60+.
they wont do it, its to much hassel for them to do this, and its way easier for them to farm raidbosses, and reg mobs.
why try and sell a clan hall, people will know server wide when someone buys it online,
AND BAM lots of people will be ******.
its not going to happen BELEIVE ME
they wont do it, its to much hassel for them to do this, and its way easier for them to farm raidbosses, and reg mobs.
why try and sell a clan hall, people will know server wide when someone buys it online,
AND BAM lots of people will be ******.
its not going to happen BELEIVE ME
Well for once I agree with you. I honestly don't think there's enough profit (their only motivation) in owning a clan hall.
If you think giving up the amount of SP needed to go to level 5 clan, the adena required and doing both quests, is "willy-nilly" then yes.
I dont see it that way having done it already.
I dont see why transfering clan leadership should have more restrictions on it then making a new clan of the same level.
look SP is not a problem, that is why SP scrolls was added.
GG get off the SP train already.
Clan Leadership chnage is coming and there is nothign you can do about it.. and I like trhe changes I read to the Clan leadership roles.
Making it a bit more military like, but adding alot more orgainzation to the clans. and castle owners!
leting the leader deligate his power to others leaving him time to manage things like, ally or CH, his main or alts, even leting him beable to have a RL!
If you think giving up the amount of SP needed to go to level 5 clan, the adena required and doing both quests, is "willy-nilly" then yes.
I dont see it that way having done it already.
I dont see why transfering clan leadership should have more restrictions on it then making a new clan of the same level.
look SP is not a problem, that is why SP scrolls was added.
GG get off the SP train already.
Clan Leadership chnage is coming and there is nothign you can do about it.. and I like trhe changes I read to the Clan leadership roles.
Making it a bit more military like, but adding alot more orgainzation to the clans. and castle owners!
leting the leader deligate his power to others leaving him time to manage things like, ally or CH, his main or alts, even leting him beable to have a RL!
look SP is not a problem, that is why SP scrolls was added.
Because SP scrolls are such a viable way to gain the major amounts of SP required to level a clan.
I dont need them, I die alot, I have made 30mil+ SP from going from lvl 61-63.
and thats me making a clan and getting all my 62 skills.
freakin pallys no skills to get.LOL
You're even saying yourself that you have exceptionally many SPs on your level because you die a lot and play a class with worthless skills.. '_'; Are you trying to support or undermine the SP arguement?
lol
I dont know, I just wanted to classify the pally as a class that accumulated LOTS of SP.
nothing more nothing less, lol
just one of those random post sorta on/off topic.
carry on