The economics of the game is all out of wack, and thats the impression of anyone new playing. I figure that my orc will spending around 200,000 by the time he hits his 20's. And with 50,000 in his pockets when he hits the mainland he will get an unwelcome suprise when the lowest graded weapon is in the 400,000 range.
A while ago a player came up with some interesting ideas and that was to let aden drop for all players at a rasied rate, but the only way to get "Mat's" would be by means of spoils. When you think of it why would any player other then a dwarf want animal skins and stems.
And while we are on the subject give castle lords more control over their towns economy, like be able to change the prices in NPC stores.
Face it the economy is broken for the fact that it was set up for the play style of korea. In korea it's acceptable for buying with real cash, and here in NA it's not acceptable but we still use the same game model. Which is what is giving us this influx of the third party programs. Now i know that this has come up before and when asked they said "We don't want different versions of the game". But face it we have two different culturals that created two different rule sets for this game.
Lets Discuss this... And i hope the powers to be join in on the discussion.
It's not because you are just 20, than u have to buy all the low level D-Grade...
The Lineage economy is not made to be like that.
I play since Open Beta, and i never have to buy some adena on ebay...
I just do things step by step, economize money, craft things i need, make cash with good sell on the market, etc.
This is the way the game economy is designed to be.
So just play for fun, and stop think u need high things because all ppl around you have those things.
When I started my first char had a mill plus weapon and brig (minus the helm) at 25. I went from the noob weapon to more noob weapon, then to a 90k weapon (watershadow) saved for a falchion (220k). Farmed like crazy to afford a kite shield (man I was cool) and bronze armor, farmed even more to get mithril armor, a 400k weapon then a spinebone sword (700k). Made a dwarf and farmed adena and mats and slowly upgraded weapons (no noob bonuses here!) to purchase a tarbar. Sold her gear and the first chars weapon to afford a 1.7 mill weapon (107 duals) and buy brig from the shop.
There was no getting top anything immediately. It was all baby steps in gear, barely any SS, lots of resting and non stop partying at all costs was unheard of. (what use pots? shut up).
This was before noob perks, uphill in the snow both ways. Prelude. If I could manage it anyone can.
I have taken baby steps but whats a player to do when they are faced with an amount like that. I still feel that the economy needs a whole different rule set for the NA version.
Everyone can craft. You play on lionna i know for a fact that it's not hard to get a dwarf to craft there and our prices are very reasonable, much better than when i was lower level and struggling to get equipment.
I used NG til 30 and then i learned how to play the game. Since then i haven't had a problem with the exception of not being able to afford A armor yet.
Also a clan might be helpful, it's amazing what can happen when you get help from other people.
Yes. That is the main thing people have to get used to when they start out in this game - playing the first character all the way through without using alts to make money is very, very hard. Before noob bonuses it was even harder.
When my first character reached 20, I realized that I would not be able to buy ANYTHING with the money I had. So I started a dwarf (heard they were good money makers) and farmed. That became too boring, so I simply put my little dorfie in elven village to buy base materials (animal skin, animal bones, coal, charcoal) until all the money was gone, then I went to Gludio and sold leather/bonepowder etc. With the money from selling I went back to elven village, etc. etc. After a while I had enough money to outfit my new and current main at lvl 20 with a full manticore set and 107 duals. From 20 to 40 I did not make much money on my main, so I kept up the buying low/selling high with the dwarf and was able to buy karmian set/dual stormbringers at 40 after selling my D grade stuff.
This would not work anymore today, since newbie villages are empty. But now you have the manor system, and there are other options for the buy low sell high way of earning money. Main point is that if you play your main with the intention of lvling up fast, you won't make money with it. You have to earn money somewhere else. And in that way L2 is quite different from most other online games: you can either lvl or make money, doing both at the same time is hard.
A while ago a player came up with some interesting ideas and that was to let aden drop for all players at a rasied rate, but the only way to get "Mat's" would be by means of spoils.
No offense, but this is a terrible suggestion. Here's why:
Once you're done with D-grade, adena is merely used as a standard unit of exchange and to purchase consumables. It is no longer used in item creation. Your suggestion may make sense for sub-40, but it very quickly breaks down with the second class change, where crafting quickly becomes the only method to obtain items, and everyone is crafting the items they "afford" via material drops and exchange.
When you think of it why would any player other then a dwarf want animal skins and stems.
When you think of it, the answer is "anyone who can find a private creation shop", which when you think of it, is everyone who has the materials and a need for the item in question.
So, basically, everyone after D-grade.
I was looking at the lowest D grade weapon and it was 400,000, that what i am talking about. The economy is broken, and needs fixing.
What level do you think you're intended to have that item? If the answer is under 25, the problem isn't the economy, it's your expectations.
I'm not joking, just because a grade is available doesn't mean you're intended to be able to afford it. Check out raid charms if you think I'm making this up, it gives you an insight into the level ranges the developers expected us to have certain grades of gear.
Everyone crafts these days, beyond a certain level. Also, the price of that item will be different to every city/server/day of the week. For example, it's currently 470k in Giran on Hindemith.
At level 20 you shoud be on top Ngrade for everything save jewels; then by level 25 you SHOULD have farmed enough to get your first ever lowbie D grade wep, or save enough til 27-28 and buy mid D grade weapon.
Splatter, back in OB and prelude you had to buy your gear one step at a time for your first ever character. If not you can always send money from your alts. No offense splat, just how long have you been playing that you didn't know this?
I'm 33 and still at mid D grade, I wasn't able to afford my mid D grade weapon so I am using the event's one... it's gonna go poof on wednesday so I still gotta raise 450k more. I made 1.2 million of profit since I started last week; I returned from prelude into C4 equippe with :
Level 24 toon
gloves
Boots
Scale gaiters
Blast plate +3 (wich was an ODD good deal back then)
Mid non grade jewelry
Kite shield
Sword of watershadow.
35k adena in my pocket.
Fast forward 3 chronicles and starting on monday of the second week of C4:
Manor system is your friend, PERIOD.
Luckly I was still eligible for newb event weapon, so I jumped into a bastard sword (mid D grade wep)
grinded quests like crazy, I was able to afford the following :
Plate shield (top D grade for 250k adena)
Bought top non grade jewelery, rip gauntlets, boots of power and helmet from giran.
Been playing th emarket with consumables (low profit, but steady)
so in total I calculate now that I'm closing in to level 34, that I've earned almost 2 million adena in a week and a half over 9 levels. Right now I have 1.245 million, still have a healthy supply of DSS and I am merely days away from a top D grade weapon. Considering I started "strip naked" with only 35k adena, I don't think it's impossible to raise the money, the economy is healthy.
I bought my kite shield at level 22 or so, the half plate was a huge chunk of my level 20 toon, but it was a too good to be true but it was kind of deal; I misplayed my toon during open beta and the first days of prelude. I bought one of each weapon and armor during all of my career in those days. I could have easily jumped grades, stood in wooden set for most of my teens, and jump straight into low D armor; or buy top non grade heavy and afford the falchion at 20; but no jewels.
I should have not bought the kiteshield that early; the kite is for level 30 or so for your first toon ever. the ebaying is because of those people that think that they'll NEVER raise enough money to buy stuff... it comes gradually. I became over armored and underweaponed; the first big NO NO in lineage. Your weapon is your life, specially for melee. Most of the time your full set of armor is half the price of a weapon its level.
The economy is fine Splatter; no need to tweak it.
I've been playing since OB and i know all about the feight system.
The best i've been able to outfit him with is basic low grade D armor with a set of viper fangs. I've even made alts to help in the gathering of funds, outfitting them using the Newbie exchange system. Hell i've even keeped the orc within the level to retain those new player buffs to help him become a killing machine, i figure he's deleveled at least 10 levels.
But quest grinding and to find that a basic low D grade weapon is a couple hundred thousand? At this rate i'll be in my 40's looking at a a weapon i should have be able to afford in my 25's.
I cann't believe that no one else feels this economy doesn't need any changing. Maybe everyone needs to take another trip back to the starter villages.
Let me buy my main's wep and I'm gonna keep you company... wich server are you on mostly? Once the event finishes I'm powerlevel with you and show you it can be done, even without the new player benefits. Oh and I started a new human on gustin because of a friend; but I'm willing to move a weekend to any server :) It's fun being low level and it would be a nice opportunity to try an orc.
I play mostly on Kain.
Again Splatter... just when you hit 20 you are going to buy, or just bought top Non grade stuff... low D grade you get about level 25 on your first char, there is just one way to cheat; well two actually; one illegal, the other is getting a toon to top No Grade, then freight to another toon, powerlevel that toon with top non grade NOT spamming shots, freight all savings to main, then repeat until you get something like 2 million adena; buy Top D grade WEAPON for the main, grind a bit until 25 or so, then freight to alt and repeat, then repeat all over.
you can then have one toon out fitted with top D grade and a couple of millions adena in a month and a half at most.
I cann't believe that no one else feels this economy doesn't need any changing. Maybe everyone needs to take another trip back to the starter villages.
Splatter, are you seriously saying that, if a problem exists only to newbies (difficulty affording D-grade gear from No-Grade), the solution is something that will negatively impact everyone else (drastic changes to the entire drop system)?
I'm sorry, but I'm finding that hard to believe, yet I'm at a loss to explain why else you would claim the entire economy needs to change to suit the level 20 characters (and a minority of them, at that!).
It's always rough in the beginning I guess. I had bronze and a Falchion at level 20, no jewelry, as an Elven Knight. Farmed my *** off at first RoD and then Abandoned Camp with only SS for emergencies to afford the next upgrade. Happiest day of my life was getting a Comp Bow drop so I could afford an Elven Sword, heh.
I got full Brig at 35 (finally bought the helmet) and full elven at 38. Bought and resold a little bit at 40 to get Comp Armor and dual SoR's. Then I rerolled but that's another story ^^. Was first time I really tried "playing the market". Before that I just grinded the cash together, took whatever quest there was. The AC one where you collect badges was great, made for a nice extra profit.
So nothing is impossible, it just takes time. It's a choice you make: either level fast without profit or level slow with profit. Slowly but surely you'll find yourself in the next stage of gear.
Same here :) Farmed massively in RoD, SS only for emergencies, or maybe 1 per harder mob. Never bought more than 300 ss at a time. I got up to a 700k weapon on my own (before I made the dwarf), how people can't do the same thing with all the new perks is beyond me.
Alright, I have an Idea on this one. I know everyone says the game was made for people in Korea to ebay/etc. But I honestly think it was made for clans to work together to help eachother. Not everyman for himself. Raid Bosses drop full items for a reason imo. So the more put together clan or group can get the items from them, and help eachother gear up.
Also I don't think a good way of making money was intended to be in this game..Aside from Castle taxes. Thus giving people a HUGE reason to fight for them. However with the manor, playing the market and secondary markets their seems to me no shortage of money for players. Yes it is hard to get gear when just starting (not anymore with the trade ups :) ) But I don't think you were supposed to get top D gear right at 20, probably grouping with 3-4 people using top NG, low low D then.
Also I think it was meant to be hard to get gear, so that it means so much more when you went red (before sin eaters) and had a chance of dropping it all.
In short, the economy was IMHO intended to cause conflicts between clans and alliances as you all race for Raid Bosses to gear eachother, and castles to make money.
I will agree that the economics of Lineage 2 are messed up, but not because of anything the designers have done. The Economics of Lineage are not run by us the players, but are run by the farmers. I know before everyone starts flaming me, you never use farmer shops ever in all your time in Lineage 2.
Yeah right.
Maybe not so much change adena drops or anything else, the best thing to do is increase the drop rate. Normal hunting with your main will never ever get you the mats to make even a C grade weapon, manor system on most servers is so corrupted that it's been useless since the middle of C3. Once again thanks to farmers and bots who can sign in at 11 every night and beat normal players unless we spend the time to spam the manor manager.
Increasing the drop rate of mats and key items is just part of the fix, the main thing is to fix the game client so that third party software can't be used anymore. Get rid of the farmers and bots and you solve the problems plain and simple.
After that it's simply adjusting the drop rate to a suitable level for all the players to be able to better enjoy the experience that is Lineage.
Till this is done then the farmers and bots and whatever you want to really call them have a market and hooked buyers on all the servers. Most people play video games to escape the real world. And alot of people don't have the dedication some of you forum warriors seem to have that shoot down any idea they find questionable.
This is why we have actual players ebaying and botting.
Fix it so there is no reason to...and you fix the problem.
Ive gotten into the discussion with alot of people about eliminating bots and farmers complelty and thers alot of problems.
-You need 100 Varnish tofinish making your C,B,A grade weapon and you have a little extra cash.
With farmers: you go to a shop and pick up the 100 you need from a farmer and craft the weapon
Without: Even though you have to money you have to haul *** out and hunt hundreds of mobs and spend hours to get the 100 varnish to click your weapon.
-Your clan just got a good drop from a raidboss that nobody needs so you try to sell.
With farmers: Because it is so easy for players to craft weapons and resell them someone can role by with a little extra cash and pick up your drop and you make some cash.
Without farmers: People are desperatly low on cash because they either A. Spend alot of money buying mats from players. or B: Have no desire to farm the materials to make a little extra cash cause there not available in town.
I hope this gets the point across. Without farmers prices of items and materials would be so insanely high and players would be running around lvl 60 farming to make theca leather armor.
Im not saying that i do in any way endorse farmers or there ways. I myself kill farmers and such because they are usually in my way. But the farmers that stay out of your way are doing nothing but benifiting you. The raidboss farmers are very very agrivating and should be taken out but the random farmers in a catacomb that leave the room when you ask are not harming you.
One problem that does exist for people now that did not in beta is the loss of the market for the NG gear or anything but top D gear.
I started on Sieghardt in Beta and my dwarves there (level 34) have tarbars, but I sweated blood for those. I farmed, sold shots I crafted and sold my weapons to get the new ones. I sold them to players however, not shops and I got a good price for them.
But I didn't have a tarbar until I was level 32.
My boyfriend fought in D grade gear until he was level 50. Because they didn't have the luxury shop to buy from until the end of the time he played.
It is both easier and harder now.
You can't sell your old lower D grade stuff. But the opportunities are really much greater.
The main reason this game hasn't taken off in NA like it could have. Ultima Online was NA based for playing and tried in Asia and failed and i think lineage is similar.
I hope this gets the point across. Without farmers prices of items and materials would be so insanely high and players would be running around lvl 60 farming to make theca leather armor.
ahhh but that's what you spectulate, but i can tell you that it's not the case. if you need prominence to continue lvling your sorc, do you buy from others for 25k or do you farm shackles (or IT, wherever it's dropped) yourself if you don't have excess adena? IMO i don't really think L2 has bad drop rate for most items (yes there're exceptions) after c3, especially with quests that're worth while to do (pretty much all quests involving a grade mats are a must for the poor) and with the introduction of manor system since c2. the inflation across servers are result of excess currency IMO (aka gold buyers that can buy w/e they want, regardless of price).
one can argue that i'm still at low lvl and have no clue how hard acquiring gears at bg+ is like, but isn't that what makes teamwork (help from friends/clan/alliance) and market manipulation skill (buy low/sell high, grind manor instead of grinding xp)important?
Currently level 13 on Lionna, name is OogahBoogah; current equip and pocket change:
Full wooden set.
Leather gloves.
Low Boots.
2nd non grade jewels, all of them.
Using the event's weapon(Cestus)
. got spiked gloves as a drop, exchanged for claws, I'd be at mid Nongrade claws now.
-New char buffs, so I get free soulshots. Only difference that'd made in my leveling? downtime.
Ok, I play an orc. Not my first toon to be sure, but now my main.
I did the repeat quests like crazy out of orc town, de-leveled and did them again.
One of your problems is the time you play. You will have a whole lot of problems if you think money is to be made by grinding. Very few people can stand that. The real money is made in the buying and selling of stuff. You must spend some time buying and selling things on the market for a profit. If you were to double your online hours by just setting up a shop, I belive you would see a marked increase in your treasure pot.
I hunt for level, I buy and sell for adena. Pure and simple. The good drops in this game after leaving the homelands is very, very rare. You have to use all pieces of the puzzle to get to the top.
The comments about a clan are dead on too. Our clan is helping our our newbies by loaning them the D class armor and weapons so they can save their adene from the hunts and get ready for C class. They are not all twinked out, but between 15 high level people, it is amazing how much crap there is in everyone's warehouse. A glove there, a boot there, maybe an old weapon.
We also try to get groups of our clan down to the catacombs once a week or so for a group hunt. There, the ancient adean and the other drops tend to help with the wealth issue.
There is nothing wrong with the economy, it seems to be very healthy. I think you need to revisit your expectations as to where you should be at this point.
No offense intended at all, just from my point of view.
Splatter, don't buy a weapon, buy a fishing pole and fishing skills.
Right now the items you get from fishing are very hot on the economy. Some of the low level items sell for even more than the high ones!! Fish Gems FTW!!
I guarantee that if you spend a few hours fishing and sell the proceeds in Dion that you will easily rake in more than enough to buy a low grade D weapon. In fact, if you spend about 10 hours fishing, you should be able to almost fully equip yourself in top D grade.
The problem you are having is that you have confined yourself to that barren wasteland starter town, and you need to get out to where there is actually an economy and find out what's going on!!
A trip to the mainland is definitely in order for you my friend. Get to Dion ASAP. There is a tremendous amount of money to be made there.
The market in L2 is great. It is perfect example of a supply and demand economy. In c3 SoM were rare and a good price on bartz was 120m. Now that C4 is around an som is going between 70-80m and the chronicle is just starting... in a month or so it should drop to 60m... and that's when i might be able to afford one.
As for starting out, don't complain to me about the economy. I did the fungus quest 100+ times to get my falchion without ss or soe... I could run it 10 times in an hour if i remember right... and I was so happy with the money it gave me...
there are plenty of ways to make enough money to afford TOP of the grade weapons at any class when you reach it.
none of which need you to grind hard, nor do they need you to buy your money.
D grade is so cheap its crazy. C grade is a it harder to go into fully as each class can be built many different ways. hell, as a bishop, i had full top C divine set, Homu +5 w/conversion, +4wit -4con tattoo, top C (nassens) jewellery and CBSPS comin out the wazoo.
all i had to do was grind as normal. i didnt get any good drops, nor good adenas, but by being a good bishop, people paid me to rez, people divided their spoils, and i partied cos thats my only means of levelling. i cant solo, i got no skills. but i digress...
yes i did play the maor system, and yes i did get lucky ans see someone selling a brig helm for 1m, and i picked it to sell for 2.5m, but its those markey plays that will make you, man.
at 20, play the manor system. go to giran and throw your mats into the nearest buy shop. for every 25k you lay down in the manor system you should be able to make 40k back if you can wait long enough to find a buy shop. being your first character, the manor system will help you get TOP D at 25 if you start it early enough. for that point on, its a buy and sell game, where all you got to do is talk someone down 200k for their C stuff, and you can sell it right back again 400k over what you bought it for.
We've got Splatter, the young rural farm boy, who has lived way out on the farm for his whole life. He rarely sees anybody, and the only market around is his town's farmer market, where he sells his tomatoes for as much as the market will bear, which is 20 cents each.
Splatter thinks that he will never ever get to buy that new truck he saw on TV, because it's going to take 28 years of tomato farming just to make the down payment.
Now, if Splatter were to take his tomatos a few miles away to the coop, and he were to do it on the right days, those same tomatos might sell for $2.00 each.
It's time brother, get your *** out to the big city, make you some money and then you'll easily be able to return home to the orc lands on vacations and such whenever you want. Don't be afraid, the city slickers aren't all that bad, at least they are free with their money!!!
Not all newbie areas are created equal. To start with, you can't manor in Elmore. In addition to that, the quests just aren't comparable.
I started one novice in DEV and one in Dwarven on PTS after the most recent wipe. Leveling them separately was an eye-opener. Not only did the dark elf get to the same level in about half the time (not sitting to regen hp all the time), but also had oodles more money/gear at the same level.
Consider the fungus quest (DEV) versus the comparable orc quest (Dwarven). The yield is more than 10x better for the same number of kills for the fungus quest, with the only downside that you gotta go back to town more often.
Plus the DE had 2 weapon quests compared to just one for Dwarven.
Drops from mobs seem about the same for the areas.
Let's face it, mats do not drop enough, and this is what fuels the terrible scarcity and makes botting so popular on the NA servers. Even with manoring, there is a shortage. Think about it. Let's look at the plated leather set, ok? The parts have a 1/300 drop rate, and do not spoil (in C3). There are 4 parts (gloves, boots, pants, shirt), plus you'd want a helmet. So let's say that's 5 armor pieces. You need 9 pieces per armor for c-grade.
So, on average, you need to kill 300x9x5 = 13,500 mobs for a low c-grade piece of equipment. This is insane! Let's say you get 1k xp per mob. You can't really kill these mobs easily before level 40. So let's say you start at level 40 here. You'll get 13.5 million xp, which will take you from level 40 to about 46.5 or so. And you still don't have a weapon, or any of the mats, etc. NCSoft needs to increase the drop rates to lower prices in the market and make it so that every armor and weapon part spoils off of SOMETHING. These changes would correct the current market so that a low c-grade armor set isn't selling for more than much of the b-grade armor.
Also I think it was meant to be hard to get gear, so that it means so much more when you went red (before sin eaters) and had a chance of dropping it all.
yeah no kidding...I dropeed my gastra bow and sword breaker when i went red in mid 20's.....was really really mad...have only gone red 5 times since then(that was in open beta)...
The economy is working the way it is intended, and it works well.
When I made my first character, I was *proud* to have bought a falcion at level 25. I had a saber until 27, a bastard sword till 30, then got lucky on a drop and bought an SoR. If that hadn't come along, I still would've had enough money by the time I hit 40ish to get an SoR.
You're not intended to be able to buy the very best for your grade when you get the grade, in fact, it's the exact opposite. You're intended to only have the very best for the grade at the end of the grade...if you only farm mats/money by fighting mobs. This goes for all grades. So, how do you overcome it? You get a boost of outside revenue.
The lineage economy is nearly completely player driven. If everyone wasn't desparate for gear and materials most of the time, the amount of trading would be much less. Consider a game like WoW: If you play your cards right, you'd never have to interact with a player in town, ever. And that's fine, because the game isn't designed for that.
Lineage on the other hand requires player interaction for almost everything. D grade and higher soulshots are only available from dwarves. Most C Grade weapons used to only be available from dwarves, and all B+ weapons are only available from them now. Even raid bosses have been nerfed to mostly drop mats now, setting the tone again for the player driven economy.
Yes, money is tight. Yes, it's hard to get new gear. But it's attainable. Towns are a gold mine. Someone has mats, some other person needs mats. You can be the supplier or the middleman and make lots of money. An orc I know spent a month in town at every grade, buying and selling until he had enough money to get all his new top gear. All it took was time, a little cunning, and lots of overnight sell shops.
Lineage is a game where you get money by playing the economy, not by killing mobs. Once you accept that, I think you'll find your time in lineage much more enjoyable. :D
An orc I know spent a month in town at every grade, buying and selling until he had enough money to get all his new top gear. All it took was time, a little cunning, and lots of overnight sell shops.
I do the same thing, at level 33 I stopped leveling and started to only play the market, when my top C stuff was all bought, I made a rush leveling to 40. Now that I'm level 40, I restarted playing the market to get my B grade, it will probably take more time to do but I like doing it. It was really rewarding for me to put my Full Plate and SLS when I got to 40, and I'm sure it will also be that way when I put a BlueWolf or Doom (not sure yet) at 52.
An orc I know spent a month in town at every grade, buying and selling until he had enough money to get all his new top gear. All it took was time, a little cunning, and lots of overnight sell shops.
I do the same thing, at level 33 I stopped leveling and started to only play the market, when my top C stuff was all bought, I made a rush leveling to 40. Now that I'm level 40, I restarted playing the market to get my B grade, it will probably take more time to do but I like doing it. It was really rewarding for me to put my Full Plate and SLS when I got to 40, and I'm sure it will also be that way when I put a BlueWolf or Doom (not sure yet) at 52.
Why stop at one? Both are good for certain situations, and it won't be that much more to get both. :D
Yep, no problem with the economy, it's not "broken" - it's actually an absurd statement in its own...
...however, there are many mostly western players who like to cheat to be on top, so they buy adena and get gear way ahead of what was originally intended.
Hence, C3 and C4 brought a LOT of means for legal players to actually compete on similar terms. Levelling from scratch today compared to in prelude, is so freaking different it's hard to put to paper. Just fishing alone will grant you after a few hours the low or mid D grade weapon if you want, regardless of level. You just need to raise the 40k or so to afford the first fishing gear.
The quest rewards have steadily increased, the adena drops from mobs have increased a bit, a real newbie also gets insane buffs and basically all of 1-20/25 with free soulshots/spiritshots, increasing earned adena per hour a lot.
I got my first low d grade weapon (saber) when I hit 26-27, and that was after a loooong week grinding the poison spider quest, fighting for spots with the back-then aggro and manually run farmers...
...not affording D grade gear at level 20? Yeah, so what? That's normal! You'll have no trouble surviving, hunting and having fun ín no-grade gear the next 10 levels either...
You're not intended to be able to buy the very best for your grade when you get the grade, in fact, it's the exact opposite
No where did i say i wanted to buy the best of the best, i challenge you to come up where i said that. I have always been looking at the lowest of graded items.
Well... I don't use soulshots or pots. I play about an hour or two once a week...
IMO that's your problem. You can't get anywhere in this game playing like that.
And HiEvery... ha ha yeah. I ran that spore quest a million times too. 2k a pop at the time, that was hot loot. I also ran the pet quest dozens of times making 30k per pet. That was phat loot too.
Yep, no problem with the economy, it's not "broken" - it's actually an absurd statement in its own...
Then why do we have pro farmers and the buying of ingame money for real money?
...not affording D grade gear at level 20? Yeah, so what? That's normal! You'll have no trouble surviving, hunting and having fun ín no-grade gear the next 10 levels either...
I don't know what characters you play, but a person cann't do enough damage and come out in the end with no-grade gear between 20-30.
Yep, no problem with the economy, it's not "broken" - it's actually an absurd statement in its own...
Then why do we have pro farmers and the buying of ingame money for real money?
Because humans will do the stupidest things to make money. I work with a guy that runs 3 "afk" WoW accounts solely to sell the currency. He is far from poor but likes the extra income.
You're not intended to be able to buy the very best for your grade when you get the grade, in fact, it's the exact opposite
No where did i say i wanted to buy the best of the best, i challenge you to come up where i said that. I have always been looking at the lowest of graded items.
All right, I'll rephrase. You're intended to be able to buy the top of the previous grade a little after you hit a new grade. Look at the mobs and what they drop: Falcion at about 25. Low D from mobs in the 30's. Top D from mobs 40-45. Top C from 52-55 mobs. Top B from 60-65 mobs. Top A from 76+ mobs. Hell, even LOW A grade only drops from 70+ mobs. That's how l2 is designed to be played.
There are people who, for whatever reason, get extra money early. Those people invested their time and money into getting it. But, those mats still came from toons that are high enough to farm them, giving those higher level toons the ability to buy their own gear.
After you reach the next grade, you realize exactly how cheap and easy it was to get stuff of the previous grade. I have enough adena on my alts right now to completely equip an army of newbies if I really wanted. I just finished equiping my C grade dwarf alts, but I'm still working on A grade.
In lineage, you don't get gear so you can grind. The lower level gear works 'good enough' about until you enter the next grade level. B grader's have been reaching 75 since B grade was introduced. Hell, the first lvl 75 character ever only had C grade (A korean SR who was played by 3 brothers for 4 months nonstop. Shift xp ftw!)
So, ask yourself: What's your goal with lineage? Are you trying to get the best gear possible? Are you trying to xp as fast as possible? Do you have some other intangible goal that you want to achieve? Lineage lets you do whatever you want. If you want to make money, you *don't* have to be high level to do it. If you want xp, you *don't* need the best gear. If you feel that having the best (or even mid!) gear for your grade is your goal, then go to it! Head to Giran, start by buying mats below market price, and selling them back to people. Work your way up to armor, or weapons. Figure out what a good price on crystals are, and if you see an item you can afford for sale under the market's crystal price, buy it, crystalize it, and sell it. Or, if you have enough money and it's a decent item, keep and use it.
If you want xp, well, you know where to go for that. If you don't have super awesome gear, parties more than make up for the slight loss in patk. Bufs, heals, and teamwork make up for a trivial gain in attack power.
Just don't expect to gain both xp and (gobs) of money at the same time. The manor helps with the XP+Adena at the same time thing, but it's not the only way. :)
Splatter, your case is unique. I don't think there's anybody else in the entire game that has been playing since OB and is only level 24. Here's what has happened:
You've missed the player base. In OB, in Prelude, even in C1, there was a booming economy for NG and D-Grade. Sure, some things were vastly overpriced, but there was an abundance of gear floating around. Now, there is no market for it, you have to buy it from the store. (And, btw, the L2 economy was not meant to be based around NPC stores, which is why nothing above D-grade is sold in normal stores and nothing above C-grade is sold in the luxury shop.) Even if people have NG and D-grade gear to sell, they don't have anyone to sell it to, so they either sell it to the NPCs or crush it.
You've also missed the bonuses NCsoft put in place just for lowbie characters. They are designed for the sole purpose of getting people out of the newbie areas quickly and into places where they can interact with the rest of the community. It is sooooooo easy now to level to 30+ on your first character. All of us that started in OB had it hard. Now there are the newbie buffs, there are SS quests, you can trade your weapons in for better weapons, etc. But you can't get any of these bonuses because you started in OB (I assume.)
Basically, this game was not designed for players to take 23 months to get to level 24. I really think the NPC stores are only there as supplements. When the player base was low level, there weren't many full armor or weapon drops floating around because there weren't many people to get them. The NPCs stimulated the flow of armor and weapons in the economy. Now that the player base is higher than that and there is no player market for those items, the NPCs are there to help the occasional new player get geared. But players are not supposed to stay at those levels. NCsoft basically changed the game in C3 so that players can quickly get to level 50 and join the community - a feat that took 6 or more months for the players who started in OB. With the new quests offered and the manor system, players have much more opportunity to make money at the lower levels now than they did during OB-C2, so affording those NPC prices shouldn't really be a huge problem.
I don't think you can base your assumptions of the L2 economy on the price of items in the NPC stores. Those stores weren't meant to be anything but supplementary.
Splatter, your case is unique. I don't think there's anybody else in the entire game that has been playing since OB and is only level 24
LoL :D
Well.....
I didn't miss the newbie buffs. At the time before they came out i was level 25, but a few deaths by monsters later i was back down to level 24 when they came out. Since then because of the lack of a good nongrade weapon and not enough skill points. I thought the best thing to do was to stay below 25 and take advantage of those buffs. So i stayed below 25 for 10 levels worth.
But thats regardless of the point i was trying to make. Maybe the point is how lacking the orc end of it all is, so far everyone that says there is nothing wrong with it doesn't play an orc.
Maybe the point is how lacking the orc end of it all is, so far everyone that says there is nothing wrong with it doesn't play an orc.
Just so we're clear, it's not simply "doesn't play an orc" but rather "doesn't play an orc who is still in the newbie lands"--once you leave Elmore, you have the same options as the other races.
Yes this game is broken, and don't think diffrently. I am 100% postive that when the designers developed this game they did not intend for there to be 2 thousand plus extra players who are on each of the nine servers who do nothing but farm mats and adena and then sell these for real life money?
Not only do they do this, they also use a third party program to connect to the game and therefore don't interact with the player base.
You can't tell me these people are good for the economy and were expected to be here years after the game launched.
Yes this game has economic problems, unfortunatly they are the kind of economic problems the only people who can help us are the developers and NCsoft.
(Please keep in mind that the two thousand + extra players is a low number, inreality I am sure it is probably a bit higher or lower depending on the people on the server.)
the farmers were gone for a week (or 2) after c2 i think, and the prices shot up tenfold.... now say that again.... and no, they wont have come down back to whut they are now....
You can't tell me these people are good for the economy and were expected to be here years after the game launched.
I can tell you right now. If you are playing an online, massive multiplayer game, there will be bots for the next few generations of games. It is a way of life now. Until the underlying mechanics are fixed in all games, they will be here. This is the reality, whether anyone wishes it or not.
I'm not going to disagree with your post here, TheDemonKnight, but I will point out that it's utterly irrelevant to Splatter's situation and resulting suggestion/complaint. A level 20 Orc who has gotten all of his cash via monsters and NPCs and is only aiming to purchase items from NPC's doesn't care one bit about the points you raised (nor about the price of tea in China, irony intended).
If you would like to start a thread about farmers (not bots, let's avoid the padlock) and the economy, I'd be game.
Actually my response was to Weyrand who was saying there was no "economic" problems with the servers.
And to be honest, I would rather be back in C grade at this point in the game then have to compete and entertain the notion that farming is right and they belong here.
Ok, I played a dark elf(almost 4 times now) a Human, an Orc and a Dwarf all to 20 or above. Because I just do the money quests...usually to afford shots ect. (I have always twinked new characters after the first one) I have to say, that actually the most lacking in money starter areas were TI and Dwarf land. Maybe I didn't follow the quest guides etc. But I never really found a good quest for money in TI. Dwarf land was decent money, but nothing spectacular. Orc land and DEV were the two most profitable places I played 1-20. Probably about equal imo. Orc land has some great quests the werewolf one (those totems make that quest :) ) and the kasha bear one. And since they were actually the best leveling mobs in the area I ran those two from the time they opened to 20. I left with roughly 250k. And that was with spamming bsps, and ss...and I got no newbie shots, so I could have left with well over 300k. DEV was about the same..left there with around 200k but that time I had newbie shots, but was not twinked (I haven't run those quests religiously since my first DE through). So really I would say they are about equal.
And no one even wants to comment on my idea that the economy was supposed to be hard to cause more conflict/fighting over castles for tax money? =(
Let's not forget the bats one, wich you can do in tandem with the werevolf quest... and the grave robbers one :0 that's an all around 7 to 8k profit quest in a bout an hour. :)
Never liked the bat one..too much work for the reward. 6k+(depending on totem drops) for the werewolf one, 6-8k for the bear one (forgot how much exactly)
And best part of those two quests was there was always one in your level range..and the quest mobs were almost always close together so you could just go crazy killing everything in the area and not worry about picking out only the quest mobs between aggros. I think they were best money for my time. But yeah did the bat one once, and graverobbers..only really did that one until kasha/werewolf ones opened up..but still hung on to em since I there were a few around the bears/wolfs I hunted.
The werewolf quest gives you 3,500 plus any totems are 600 each. The bat quest gives you 4,200 and the bear quest is 5,500 and a set of leather pants. Over all it takes you about an hour to complete all three together. And in the process you gain about 3/4 of a level. Say any loot you get comes in at 10,000.
You do that for four levels 16 to 19 you should have 104,000. So you head to the mainland with the best non-grade gear and 104,000 in cash for a weapon. The lowest D grade weapon costs 545,000....
Your mouth hits the floor. You turn around and head back to orc town deleveling for 10 levels. And return back to the mainland to get that low D grade weapon.
And you tell me that the economy isn't broken... :)
You do that for four levels 16 to 19 you should have 104,000. So you head to the mainland with the best non-grade gear and 104,000 in cash for a weapon. The lowest D grade weapon costs 545,000....
Your mouth hits the floor. You turn around and head back to orc town deleveling for 10 levels. And return back to the mainland to get that low D grade weapon.
And you tell me that the economy isn't broken... :)
That is where you went wrong. I hit mainland with my DE, using a falchion...and started doing the manor..compulsively. I hardly leveled without using the manor. I had enough to normally spam shots, and made enough to get scale mail set and a bastard sword in my 30's...later I bought a Elven long sword from manor profits, got scammed for my bastard sword (ran a clan and lent it to someone...=( ) And still made it to 40 with about 10m once I sold all of my D gear. (Granted I got lucky on a+4 on the ELS because I was going to reroll anyway :P Tanking isn't my thing)
The manor system was the single best way to make money in this game. Now I play the market a ton, and haven't even tried the manor since c4..but it seems really messed up now :(
You can't tell me these people are good for the economy and were expected to be here years after the game launched.
I can tell you right now. If you are playing an online, massive multiplayer game, there will be bots for the next few generations of games. It is a way of life now. Until the underlying mechanics are fixed in all games, they will be here. This is the reality, whether anyone wishes it or not.
City of Heroes, for instance, had very, very few bots, if any. I expect DDO coming out soon will be much the same. MMORPG's can be without bots. But heavy grind PvP games, yes, those will have farmers.
As for farmers making the economy work. I still say nonsense. Farmers harvest mats and sell the adena. The adena is used to buy things from them. They then sell the adena. Then the adena is used to buy things from them. They sell the adena again. What do you have here? Inflation, with the ebayers feeding the endless cycle. Without the farmers, those who work hard manoring and crafting would be getting the money, not those with a credit card. Kind of academic since we don't have a botless server I suppose.
This was premanor... Anyways when i did try it i had a boat load of fruit i couldn't even sell back to the manor as they were at their buy back limit.
The manor system was the single best way to make money in this game. Now I play the market a ton, and haven't even tried the manor since c4..but it seems really messed up now
It resets at 8pm PST/11EST.As I am EST time it actually served as a bit of a "voice of reason" for when I would quit the grind and head back to sell my fruits back and sign off for the night. Most of the time I got it, sometimes I did not, but I would just try again tommorrow then..and with more.
They betane DDO to the punch, you can buy 10k gold for "just" 88.85 :) City of Heores doesn't have them because there is nothing worth of the time investment you can't access on your own. I'm not familiar with CoH or CoV.
And if there ever was a game heavily lent on gear, it'd D&D... a death warding amulet can make or break a game. and a +1 sword is a PLUS ONE SWORD. Enchanting is too easy on this game compared to enchanting in D&D.
ROFL : Guess what? you can also buy "influence" whatever that is, in CoH... they even have listed FFXI, EQ2, RFonline, WoW euro and US and Guild Wars... And people say their game "doesn't have those" rofflecopters of fun I say... they can't see them because of instances, but they are there as well... XD
And you tell me that the economy isn't broken... :)
Alright, there seems to be a mix up here. I would say the economy is perfect. I probably have a bit over 100m in cash and assests..and my main is 44. And I have only recently started playing the market (Since December, when I racked my brain trying to figure out how to turn the best profit buying and selling)
Now I will agree that the drop rates and adena drops suck. But I don't think they were ever intended to be good. Sure you get maybe 1 blade hunting the mobs that drop them...in a few levels. But this game was designed with a clan mentality so you probably would get enough blades for your weapon if everyone in your clan was helping.
And if you hold a castle...well you get everyones tax money and should be able to suit up most people nicely on that.
Face it, L2 was not designed for you to get everything by just playing the game. It was designed to be hard to achieve levels, power, and money. And you were supposed to rely on a network of friends to help, otherwise this would just be a single player grind fest.
ROFL : Guess what? you can also buy "influence" whatever that is, in CoH... they even have listed FFXI, EQ2, RFonline, WoW euro and US and Guild Wars... And people say their game "doesn't have those" rofflecopters of fun I say... they can't see them because of instances, but they are there as well... XD
Influence in CoH/CoV is money as far as I know. And yeah, well they are very noticable in Guild Wars last time I was there, bots in many major cities spamming up the chat telling you were/how to buy gold, and how much.
I think the reason so many people complain about bots is, as you mentioned, the fact that L2 has no instances for them to hide in, as well as the fact that people love to brag about how they trained some bots for "Phat lootz today!11!!" Which you cannot do in games where they hide in instances or cannot pvp them/train them.
I play since ob and I used D grade till lvl 51 c grade till 63 and b grade till 76/75 where i finally completed my a grade set the other day. The economy is not broken it only seems broken because of ebay.
Think of it this way, if there was no ebay then getting 100m would be alot more difficult therefore ppl trying to sell a grade helmets or 100m would never sell people just wouldnt have the money. So what would happen? SInce hardly anyone has 100m to buy the helmets the market would start to get alot more a grade helmets for sale. However no one is buying them so then what happens? The prices are lowered bit by bit untill a amt is reached where people will buy it.
You say well you can make tons of money buying and selling stuff. However thsi is only possible again cause of ebay. You buy cheap sell high alot if people didint have so much money they would try hard to buy stuff lower as it is now ppl are inpatient and pay the insane amts for stuff letting you buy low sell high for insane profits.
The economy is only broken because of ebay, without the farmers prices wouldnt be so high.
See lineage 1 there was no ebay no powerlvl there prices were reasonable. Stuff cost only cost as much as the difficulty in obtaining it hunting normally. So the only stuff that sold super expensive was the stuff that was super Rare ie coi, ancient scrolls etc.. Ebay broke the economy it would be fine otherwise...
Hell they were selling gold in GW last event they had... for the event Ffs! I told a buddy who invited me to that event : "You know what? I prefer my game where I can train those to death whenever I feel like it... here you can't do anything to them, death has no consequences whatsoever" "Oh but there is a penalty and it gets harsher everytime you die" "But you wash it off in like 5 minutes; you don't lose two to 3 hours of hunting when you get lucky, or 3-4 days of hunting when you don't" "but but" "your instances blow hard and you know it, and I'm off"
ForeverShadow, while you raise some interesting points that would be fuel for another thread, I should probably remind you that the topic at hand is 25 and under...where none of that matters since inflation is impossible.
The economy is not the way the designers and NCsoft intended it to be. So how can it be good? How can it be good to rely on farmer shops selling animal bone for 1k adena or more?
I am well aware of the ways to make money in this game, I do quite well crafting and selling and buying low and selling high. I agree that this was the way the economy was supposed to be. But the farmers and all the little bot shops are not meant to be here. That funny looking named dwarf and his four friends that follow him in perfect sync are not meant to be here. Because of them the market is inflated, overpriced, lacking in lower grade materials for newer players and just down right not supposed to be set up this way.
I mean be honest with yourselves, some of you are actually happy with the way the servers are now, you must like having to compete with farmers and having to pay what they dictate. I'm sorry, I don't know how you can look at yourself when you say those things.
City of Heroes, for instance, had very, very few bots, if any. I expect DDO coming out soon will be much the same. MMORPG's can be without bots. But heavy grind PvP games, yes, those will have farmers.
Games with instanced zones don't have bots "virtually". They are there, just hidden in their own little pieces of the world.
It's just the opposite inflation is possible. The economy is tanked... It's not controlled by me or you it's controlled by the pro farmer. As in any economy their are checks and balances and those have been taken out of our hands.
I made a trip to giran town and what did i see prices in the millions... The market is flooded.
I made a trip to giran town and what did i see prices in the millions... The market is flooded.
Splatter, I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but...it only looks like a lot to you because you haven't played non-newbie game.
Prices are in the millions because, to a level 50, 6-8M for a weapon is easily affordable without any special effort.
...and it gets much more pronounced as your levels get higher.
This may help you adjust your perspective:
The amount of adena/etc increases as you gain levels, and the number of kills needed per level drastically spikes. It's not unreasonable for a character to kill ten thousand monsters to gain a single level, once you're in the "end game". If I toss out a number like 1k per kill (you actually get more, but let's assume you have operating costs that lower it to that amount), then that means you gain ten million in adena alone in the time it takes to gain a single level!
That's what the game drives you toward, by little (recursive!) steps and the occassional leap (level walls). Prices are measured in the millions because, simply put, it's what they're worth to the people who can use them!
The economy is not the way the designers and NCsoft intended it to be. So how can it be good? How can it be good to rely on farmer shops selling animal bone for 1k adena or more?
I am well aware of the ways to make money in this game, I do quite well crafting and selling and buying low and selling high. I agree that this was the way the economy was supposed to be. But the farmers and all the little bot shops are not meant to be here. That funny looking named dwarf and his four friends that follow him in perfect sync are not meant to be here. Because of them the market is inflated, overpriced, lacking in lower grade materials for newer players and just down right not supposed to be set up this way.
I mean be honest with yourselves, some of you are actually happy with the way the servers are now, you must like having to compete with farmers and having to pay what they dictate. I'm sorry, I don't know how you can look at yourself when you say those things.
actually I find that this is a common misconception. Farmers sell things ****ed cheap. Real people resell them at a high profit. So really farmers don't dictate prices much. Everyone seems to think that farmers run these stores or whatever, they usually sell to buy shops, it is quicker for them and they can go back to getting more materials. This is mostly how I made my fortune, I highly doubt normal people collect over 5m of any item at a time, and then sell them to my shop for well under the common value :)
Oh, and again I say to you: Do you really think that a game that takes most people over a year to hit 75 was intended for you to be able to afford everything you need along the way?
I still say NO. And am sticking with my opinion that money was supposed to be **** hard to come by so that people would fight for the castles tax money, and organize to fight raidbosses to help gear clan members.
bold so someone says something on it :P
Clearly you guys don't believe that a game designed to be "hardcore" would allow you to easily afford everything you want?
The lack of money was IMO intended to cause conflict between players
ForeverShadow, while you raise some interesting points that would be fuel for another thread, I should probably remind you that the topic at hand is 25 and under...where none of that matters since inflation is impossible.
**I play since ob and I used D grade till lvl 51** c grade till 63 and b grade till 76/75 where i finally completed my a grade set the other day.
My point was just confirming what other b4 me have alredy stated you are NOT meant to have top gear as soon as you hit the next grade mark.
I didn't start collecting this data until AFTER I had deleveled 3-4 times and had half my D grade equip. (And this is just ONE of my chars.)
I started in Prelude with an Orc. Made it to L23~ish with some low D Armor and got a Saber. Yes it was possible by working those Orc quests as hard as possible. Looking ahead I saw the steep climb to top D...and then started Deleveling. (And started taking these notes to see exactly where my money was coming from.)
I even went so far as to drop down to sub 20 and Grind back up AFTER I got my (second from top) D grade equip. (Skullbreaker and Brigandine set. &Shield+Helm) I was able to even get some Duals, and (then) top armor for a Wolf. And I did it all by only playing 1.5 to 2.5 hours a night. (Breaking some runs down into multiple nights actually although I totalled the time for recording.)
And this was all before things like 'newbie buffs' and the manor. I truly wish I could get more people to work together to *make money* instead of *spending it*! (AKA Leveling with shots.)
The economy is not the way the designers and NCsoft intended it to be. So how can it be good? How can it be good to rely on farmer shops selling animal bone for 1k adena or more?
I am well aware of the ways to make money in this game, I do quite well crafting and selling and buying low and selling high. I agree that this was the way the economy was supposed to be. But the farmers and all the little bot shops are not meant to be here. That funny looking named dwarf and his four friends that follow him in perfect sync are not meant to be here. Because of them the market is inflated, overpriced, lacking in lower grade materials for newer players and just down right not supposed to be set up this way.
I mean be honest with yourselves, some of you are actually happy with the way the servers are now, you must like having to compete with farmers and having to pay what they dictate. I'm sorry, I don't know how you can look at yourself when you say those things.
actually I find that this is a common misconception. Farmers sell things ****ed cheap. Real people resell them at a high profit. So really farmers don't dictate prices much. Everyone seems to think that farmers run these stores or whatever, they usually sell to buy shops, it is quicker for them and they can go back to getting more materials. This is mostly how I made my fortune, I highly doubt normal people collect over 5m of any item at a time, and then sell them to my shop for well under the common value :)
Oh, and again I say to you: Do you really think that a game that takes most people over a year to hit 75 was intended for you to be able to afford everything you need along the way?
I still say NO. And am sticking with my opinion that money was supposed to be **** hard to come by so that people would fight for the castles tax money, and organize to fight raidbosses to help gear clan members.
bold so someone says something on it :P
Clearly you guys don't believe that a game designed to be "hardcore" would allow you to easily afford everything you want?
The lack of money was IMO intended to cause conflict between players
Do you even play the same game I do?
Farmers rarely sell anything at a cheap price unless it is to undercut another farmer or an actual player who is selling the same item/s.
Also to debunk what your saying here a little bit more, in one breath you mention how the farmers sell things cheaper, yet mention how hard it "should" be for us to get these items.
The economy is messed up because these items are so readily available, to the point rarely do we actually farm most items ourselves. This is a hardcore game, no doubt about it, from the death penalty to the loss of gear while chaotic to the 1 stem every 6 mobs sometimes.
Just imagine for a minute if you take away the farmers and adena companies. Do you honestly think 4 chronicles later that the game developers would not have noticed the state of affairs? We have all this high end gear because the developers see characters running around with overenchanted top grade gear. The hugely sad thing about it is, is more then 75% of the top grade gear you see on the servers wasn't crafted by actual players but by the farmers. Who in turn sell the adena used to purchase these expensive weapons to other players and round and round we go.
Take away the farmers, and we'll start to see how the game was meant to be played. I mean honestly, if they show you the Draconic bow, they intend for some people to eventually have it. And I am pretty sure they don't intend for you to ebay it and buy it off a farmer.
Farmers ruin the game, they ruin the economy, they ruin how the developers see us playing the game and they ruin the actual expeirence of the game for real players.
Lol whatever. I know that I have personally made over 100m buying and selling things. Things at prices and quantities no normal player would sell to me. I highly doubt they raise prices. The more readily available an item is the cheaper it becomes. It is simple economics, rare=expensive, abundant=cheap.
I will agree they messed up how hard it was probably supposed to be to get items. But I will always disagree that they make things more expensive. Enterprising players of the market make things more expensive. Myself included.
Ok splatter i didn't have d grade till i was lvl 29. so whine all you want i know how you feel. However by the time i was 40 i was able to afford top C, well near top C and you know the prices are reasonable in giran. Easily affordable by the time you can use the stuff. The fact that you haven't played almost any of the game gives you a very skewed view.
So farmers and the fact we can buy adena online from these farmers is a good thing is what your telling me. Your telling me that the game is better off with them because you know how to manipulate the economic system the farmers have setup to your own advantage and don't want that to change?
Well GG. I never said I was poor and didn't know how to make this system work to my benefit...I said I didn't like the fact that the system is the way it is. I don't like the fact that in a game based off player versus player expierences, we are so dependant upon non-players.
Farmers do not play the game for the same reason we do, farmers play the game to make real life currency plain and simple. Most farmers don't even use the game client to connect, want me to post the internet and gamining magizine articles about them?
Nope, I use a loophole, sad it exists, but I am an opportunist. I was merely pointing out that people generally claim that farmers sell things so very much overpriced when it is actually regular players reselling items, at a profit, that they bought from Farmers.
And besides, aren't we all farmers in a way? We farm mobs for exp, mobs for mats and adena. Call them something else, like IGE farmers, or Adena resellers.
Someday, somehow, someone will have a thread that passes 50 posts without going so horribly off-topic that nobody even remembers what we're supposedly talking about.
Someday, somehow, people will realize that this didn't go off topic. The post was about Lineage Economics. And since the farmers/IGE resellers make up a good portion of the game and it's internal economics.
Continued ignorance of a problem is not the solution to a problem. And making comments like yours is showing ignorance.
Someday, somehow, people will realize that this didn't go off topic. The post was about Lineage Economics.
But, see, the post itself wasn't about Lineage Economics. The subject line was about Lineage Economics. The actual post was a (no offense, Splatter) newbie Orc saying that he couldn't afford the lowest D-grade when he hit his 20's. The OP, overvaluing the impact of adena and not grasping the relative significance of materials, thought that there wasn't enough adena and too much materials.
The proposed solution was raise the adena drop rate and remove all material drops. This makes sense to someone who is level 20, as at that point adena can actually bring items into the game (via NPC's) and materials seem inconsequential.
Naturally, it makes no sense at all to anyone beyond 40, as they know firsthand that money can't buy you anything if the materials aren't available to create items.
The OP's proposed reason for the (nonexistant) adena scarcity was that the game was supposedly designed with the idea that adena would be artificially injected to the system via the secondary market. The scarcity concept was thoroughly debunked--making the secondary-market reference completely without merit (a system to solve a nonexistant problem).
Thus, the secondary-market discussion was, at best, secondary. The actual topic of the thread, as evidenced in the first several dozen posts, was the idea of adena scarcity and techniques that would remedy Splatter's situation.
Then, as happens often on this board and usually leads to a padlock, people went on a farmer-bot rampage and completely forgot that they were beating a long-dead horse.
Do explain how talking about something that is tangental to the actual topic of discussion, and immaterial to the spirit of the original post, is anything but going off-topic. Apparently I'm too ignorant to grasp the stunning logic that explains how talking about something immaterial to the topic at hand is not "off-topic".
And since the farmers/IGE resellers make up a good portion of the game and it's internal economics.
Continued ignorance of a problem is not the solution to a problem.
As I have said before in this thread, please, go ahead and start a "could the market survive without farmers" thread (or anything along those lines!). I will gladly discuss it there. I am not, however, discussing it in a thread where it is barely relevant at all. That's hardly ignorance, it's this rarely-implimented concept called "good posting etiquette".
And making comments like yours is showing ignorance.
Right... some people play this game because their e-reproductive organs are so small they can't register on a pixel wide sprite. Really, you'd be surprised...
Well i finally got over 600,000 saved up for my D grade Bagh-Nakh and at level 24. I only had to delevel for about 10 levels to save up enough.
Sheesh, 600k is nothing! If you're that desperate, PM me and I'll give you some money! I've got tons of spare D-grade junk sitting in my WH that I don't have any use for and can't sell (because there's no market for D-grade.) I mean, just in leveling 4 alts up to their 20s, I got like 4 demon fangs, probably 10 pieces of low D-grade armor, one or two low D-grade weapons, tons of jewelry, gloves and boots. I don't mind sharing some with you if it will help you level already! I started in OB too, but I can't even imagine only getting to level 25! There's still soooo much of the game you haven't seen! And what's more - this is an MMO! There can't possibly be many parties at your level! Do you solo 100% of the time? Why don't you just play a single player RPG? They're more fun! The only thing that makes an MMO worth playing is the community.
I know it's hard to make money, by the time I was 20 I had about 200k to my name. But I made some friends who gave me top D-grade gear. And then I was able to save up for C-grade, bought two C-grade armor sets and traded up for a low C-grade weapon, lucked out with an SLS drop in C1. My clan helped me out with B-grade and then a friend gave me 40 mil when he quit the game. At this point, it's impossible for me to tell how much money I've made and how much I've been given, but I don't try to make money at all. I spam BSpS and greater acumen pots. I don't play the market and I only do quests if the best xp areas offer them. Yet I have enough. I guess my point is, if you play the game the way it's supposed to be played (as part of a community, in a clan) then you are usually ok.
Now that you're out of orc town (I hope), you need to start doing the quests and manor around gludio and dion. You will make more money with each level you gain, so I don't see the point of continuing to delevel. A level 32 is going to make more money in one hour than a level 17, there's no question about it. So just keep leveling and you'll make money! Play the market even, it's not that hard, just takes time and patience. Set your comp up overnight with buy/sell stores.
Anyway, PM me if you want gear, I'm more than willing to give it to a good cause. :p
I've been playing since OB and i know all about the feight system.
The best i've been able to outfit him with is basic low grade D armor with a set of viper fangs. I've even made alts to help in the gathering of funds, outfitting them using the Newbie exchange system. Hell i've even keeped the orc within the level to retain those new player buffs to help him become a killing machine, i figure he's deleveled at least 10 levels.
But quest grinding and to find that a basic low D grade weapon is a couple hundred thousand? At this rate i'll be in my 40's looking at a a weapon i should have be able to afford in my 25's.
I cann't believe that no one else feels this economy doesn't need any changing. Maybe everyone needs to take another trip back to the starter villages.
I feel ya. These guys who say use manor ha. I spit on you. I still have seeds I cant sell anywhere and if you noticed, the buy back was nerfed. So stick your manor.
The economy on Hindemith is outrageous. 2+ mil for brig helm. On teon th eother day seen a +2 for 900k. Maybe when you post you should state what server your playing on.
Also they did nerf the drop rates in C3 big time and from what others have been saying they did it again in C4. Guess they want us playing longer. I say it should be time for more events or up the adena drops 6% and basic mat drops 10%. Orwhatever formula they used to nerf it in the beginning. And while they are at it.
I will agree that the economics of Lineage 2 are messed up, but not because of anything the designers have done. The Economics of Lineage are not run by us the players, but are run by the farmers. I know before everyone starts flaming me, you never use farmer shops ever in all your time in Lineage 2.
Yeah right.
Maybe not so much change adena drops or anything else, the best thing to do is increase the drop rate. Normal hunting with your main will never ever get you the mats to make even a C grade weapon, manor system on most servers is so corrupted that it's been useless since the middle of C3. Once again thanks to farmers and bots who can sign in at 11 every night and beat normal players unless we spend the time to spam the manor manager.
Increasing the drop rate of mats and key items is just part of the fix, the main thing is to fix the game client so that third party software can't be used anymore. Get rid of the farmers and bots and you solve the problems plain and simple.
After that it's simply adjusting the drop rate to a suitable level for all the players to be able to better enjoy the experience that is Lineage.
Till this is done then the farmers and bots and whatever you want to really call them have a market and hooked buyers on all the servers. Most people play video games to escape the real world. And alot of people don't have the dedication some of you forum warriors seem to have that shoot down any idea they find questionable.
This is why we have actual players ebaying and botting.
Fix it so there is no reason to...and you fix the problem.
I suppose the main problem is that the whole money system in L2, adena drops and item drops are based on a price list created by the designers at NCsoft, thats only natural but of course when you put the players in the mix the system goes haywire because they create their own economy. The more desirable and rare a item is the more people will try and get away with charging the most they can get. I think everybody agree's that a Brig Helm is the most extreme case. I've never seen one for less than 3 mill, Ncsoft designers put the value of this item at 112,000. In fact I've never seen anything for sale that you can't get in a shop for less than double it's NCsoft worth.
If NCsoft try to change the drop rate of adena or materials the economy will simply adapt, if people earn more money prices will go up, solution?, I havn't a clue, I suppose they could make higher level items available in shops in some of the higher level towns but that would'nt affect the price of the highest level items, Oh I dunno!.
I had someone else offer some loot, but my orc won't let me accept any offer. The orc told me it's an honor thing... :)
And after i got that weapon i did head back to orc town.... Now, before you shake that finger at me. I only did that till six days pass and i can give my viper fangs to a newly created female orc i'm working on. Then i'm heading back to DE village to do some more quests. :D
You go out of town, kill the fungus, run to the swampland, kill the zombies and run to near the altar of Rites and kill Prowlers,
SOE back to town, repeat.
About 10k every run and it took me 20 minute to make a run.
I'm doing the first two, i'll check into the third. Thanks.
The Sweetest Venom one is the one that pay the most, 5810A for the quest, and if you don't spam SS you can easily double your profit from the drops.
And Prowlers sometimes drop Cestus, I got 3 from the time I hunted there, they sell to around 60k to the traders. Not to mention that Prowlers don't poison like Poison Spiders do(that why I hunted them).
I'm doing the first two, i'll check into the third. Thanks.
The Sweetest Venom one is the one that pay the most, 5810A for the quest, and if you don't spam SS you can easily double your profit from the drops.
And Prowlers sometimes drop Cestus, I got 3 from the time I hunted there, they sell to around 60k to the traders. Not to mention that Prowlers don't poison like Poison Spiders do(that why I hunted them).
I'm doing the first two, i'll check into the third. Thanks.
The Sweetest Venom one is the one that pay the most, 5810A for the quest, and if you don't spam SS you can easily double your profit from the drops.
And Prowlers sometimes drop Cestus, I got 3 from the time I hunted there, they sell to around 60k to the traders. Not to mention that Prowlers don't poison like Poison Spiders do(that why I hunted them).
Finally Splatter--some wisdom--from the orc no less! Funny how recreation mirrors life. As soon as the guy down the street buys a cool truck--every neighbor guy mowing the lawn wonders how HE can get a cool truck.....sound familiar?
I've only been playing since Jan--I'm tired of hearing about bots and farmers, tired of players with 100million adenda whining in game about paying "13 for ss" (GOD FORBID), tired of everyone whining all the time!!!!!!
The game has returned my 19.99 and monthly fee (two months now) many, many times over.
This game has features that can only be enjoyed at some signficant lvls--that's true. But it STILL has features to enjoy when starting....I have 4 starting characters.
Pleasure is where you find it. Learning to hunt new mobs CAN be fun as you progress, meeting people in game CAN be fun, learning to party the first times CAN be fun (it's certainly 'funny' if nothing else).
I had an orc overlord invite me on a "pole party" into the necropolis of sacrifice--what a hoot--she must still be laughing at my ineptness and telling people the story. I had the time of my life that evening! Learned a lot and got lots of drops (which she gave to me anyway) and incidentally made a good supply of money.
The beautiful part of this game is the INTERACTION. It's in all these prior posts (yes--i read them all).
One poster said it--playing a single person RPG is easier!!!!
This is my first MMORPG--I coulnd't play anything else now. I'm hooked.
Remember, one person's "load of junk" is another person's treasure. There was an elf in Gludin this week already selling two--two (swordbreakers) top ng swords--each for 150k. I had 400k in wh. I bought both. I sold the first for 275k overnight. I sold the second for 250 k two nights later. That's 225k to me in two nights! Those swordbreakers sell in shop in Gludin for 318k---everybody won. No cheating. No whining. No complaints. By the way--that same money hungry elf offerred my dwarf "all her mats for 10k"--she put in the trade window the following: 5 cokes, 37 iron, 23 braided hemp, 63 stems, 4 coal, 17 varnish, 40+ animal skins, some animal bones, and some leather and a couple things I'm forgetting. She needed the money. I needed the mats. She came back to me because we had INTERACTED when I bought both swordbreakers.
I've had one full drop that I could sell-it was a d-bastard sword from a Turek Warlord in Orc Barracks--I gave it via freight to my poor and struggling lvl 23 knight who still had bronze armor and a gladius.
With the bastard sword and ss--the knight was "hired" for 200k last week by a player trying to level an alt solo. "would I party with him in AC for 200k?" I was questing the knight in AC anyway. Opportunity. BTW-we were both pk'd about 3 hours later (lmao)...still all good. My clanmates are still teasing me about that one.
Otherwise I have interacted, played, grinded, watched for opportunities, tried manor system (which didn't do much for me yet), and had TONS of fun.......here's the point. I'm having fun BECAUSE I WANT TO. It wouldn't be fun if I compared myself to others who have been playing for a year and are at lvl 70!
Find a way to get what you need--the open architecture of the game is fascinating. As the posts have shown--there are lots of ways to accomplish. The question for you and those of us new to the game is: "what do we like the most and what strategy will we come up with to accomplish what is important to us in the game?"
You REALLY want to know my secret? Why I'm having fun? Because in this game it's safe for me to be nice--to be funny--to help others randomly--to share. I run 7 health clinics for a living--i'm the 'big boss' to 150 people and my decisions effect the actual lives a couple of thousand people. In this game I pride myself on being "the funniest dwarf in Aden"--no nasty comments, being helpful, answering questions when I know the answer. I've had dozens of recommendations--many from people who were just listening to me help others.
Be nice--be open (there's nothing at risk--its a GAME)---INTERACT. PLAY. For the love of all that's holy---just PLAY. Games like this are one of the few things left that some of us CAN play at in life--which has gotten darned serious for most of us. Most importantly--ACCEPT the game as it stands!!!!!!!!! What's with our culture anyway? "why won't work just pay me more?" "why doesn't the government give me healthcare?" "why doesn't that evil Walmart give more money to owl habitats?" "why won't Mercedes sell me a car for 5,000 dollars?" Does THAT sound familiar? "why doesn't ncsoft increase money drops?" "if only ncsoft would....fill in the blank...then I would be complete...."
News flash--the government isn't your friend, your workplace is already overpaying you and you know it, ncsoft built the game and has made regular changes to it, and, here's the stunner....some people are (gasp) happy! How do they DO it? It's a choice my friend.
PS. I watched a bot get killed by mobs in Orc Barracks....he dropped an elven earring. He was killed a short time later and dropped the other one. Both were +3--my knight is wearing them :D. Whining is for losers....take the game as it is and PLAY it. Me? I'm looking for elves who need fast adenda and places where bots hunt and cracking jokes! My last announcement? "WTB-Recipe for not-very-bright slave girl...pm me"
I still say I made about the same amount of money running the quests in Orc land, as Dark Elf Village ;/ But thats just me. Remeber the weapon quests though, most of those swords sell for 11-10k which is nice.
Orc weapon quest sells same as Dark Elf weapon quest,as far as I know..was about 11-12k each last time I did them (Blood Saber/Butcher Sword) and imo the orc one is easier and faster.
Not talking about selling to other players, shops buy them back at 11-12k each. NPC shops, and the butcher sword is really not a hard quest to finish, and has fairly low expenses as well.
Well, i'm the only out spoken orc so these things untill i notice them they seem to slip by.
Which is definitely a good thing, don't get me wrong. I'm actually not that familiar with the Orc Village myself, so it's news to me.
I just wanted to make sure it was clear that a problem with the quest/drop/etc design for one subregion doesn't require an overhaul of the other 99% of the game. :cool:
...but the things that are messed up aren't the economy or the drop design, it's the Orc Village
Well, i'm the only out spoken orc so these things untill i notice them they seem to slip by.
I know from experience that there are a handful of moneymaking quests in orc village. Most people here aren't familiar with them because there's so few orcs.
...granted, I don't remember what they are now, but they exist! :p
I have been saying that on my orc, I left with around 300k in quest money. (He was twinked yes, but I paid for all shots with the quests, as well as teleports, and spamming of haste 1 pots) So I don't think Orc town lacks any money quests...in fact I would probably be there running those quests if I had to make alts for money. Quicker, easier, and 100% drops on most it seems. In DEV the fungus quest only takes 10, but the drops take you as long, or longer than then 50 item 100% drop rate quests of Orc Village.
wow, maybe I need to take my new orc to dev for those quests? I'm having a hard time getting the kasha bears & chieftans quests completed .. in the area you find those mobs there is roughly 10-15 single [you know whats] killing ONLY bears & chiefs. Basically as soon as one of those mobs spawn, it's being killed. Very frustrating. :confused: