Hello,
I am playing a SK lvl60+ and the problem that i faced everytime when I have a party with archers with just 2 lvls higher than me is, that they get the agro and my hate is not as it should be. I skilled my hate as much as possible, but as soon a archer crits, the mobs leave me and start to hit the archers. (And they crit very often) This is bad in regions where you normally have to deal with many mobs at the same time (it is bad in all situations) I feel useless except to select the target. But this can be done by the archer as well. There is no place for Tanks except for sieges and Raids.
The Tank should be able to do his job and keeps the mobs agro on him! :(
Someone told me yesterday:
There are only 2 Jobs that are hard to level, tanks and dwarfs.
Everyone with a high level of those in the "Age of Mages" has got my respect.
(spoken by a Spellsinger)
U need Tanks in PvP?
Get an Orc, he does the same job but with more HP and more Dmg.
Only purpose is tanking some raid bosses, but I've seen a Lillith Raid without tanks too, so wheres the point? Tanks just make raid bosses easier, but you don't really need them...
If everybody leveled their gear like they should, and by that mean not being in top gear as soon as oyu hit it; tanks would be useful again... we used to be wanted back when mages didn't do a lot of damage and casted slow. they needed us to hold agro while they casted again.
Really, that's the principle. the problem started too when people began to want only "perfect" set ups for parties, and in the chaos that ensued, tanks got the shaft.
Aye, hate is somewhat weak :) Sometimes it doesnt even take the mobs initial aggro and if someone crits the mob it's bye bye to hate. Crit from a good melee/ranged DD = more aggro generating than spamming hate.
As a Destroyer, I pull hate from a tank all the time, and thus make the tank pretty much useless. He gets hit 1-2 times before the aggro transfers and then I'm the one getting beaten. Happens to almost all the mobs unless they drop in a few hits.
/signed. As a paladin, it is almost impossible for me to hold aggro unless I just spam hate/hate/hate/hate>>MP rest. I have had BD's with Mid BG Duals pull aggro off of me spamming hate and whacking with my Dark Legions Edge. I can use aggression to pull the mobs, hate aura to gather all their friends, then I see the bright red glow of our BD popping up a few party buffs and whammo... they are all attacking the BD.
I agree. Hate needs to get beefed up. When I played my tyrant, I constantly pulled aggro from the tank. And I didn't have any tattoos. An untattooed DD shouldn't be able to pull aggro from the tank on virtually every mob.
I paty with a SK in my clan...we do it often...he is 4 levels higher than me.
so thats 2 nore skill sets....and i take argo from him all the time...
if he hits first, then i hit(i drit alot too[+7dex]) then the mob is all over me...and if he hates it...it doesn't matter because i have gotten off another hit on the mob by that time...so the mob just comes after me.
You guys play with noob tanks if they can't hold aggro. You're not supposed to start off with a hate, you save hate til the moment you lose aggro then you pop it and you get aggro back. Tanks can hold aggro well when they get the 1st hit and they are on top of hate when it is needed.
You don't need to use hate every 2-3 secs, if you do you 're prolly just a gimp. I've tanked with a dwarf and a warrior almost a glad and do pretty well, if I had hate I would own at tanking.
If you're not pulling with hate you'll never get aggro back when you lose it. Which you will almost immediately. Pull with Hex and see how long you hold aggro..lol.
my tank does that...hex first...he hits first then i shoot...usually hitting a crit in 1 or 2 shots...then I usually take argo...when he uses hate...i have hit it again..so its on me again
u dont seem to realize how to use the hate you have.
first of all, as a tank, youre not supposed to use it on a mob who hasnt hit you. drain the mob of hp till its nearly 75% then use hate THEN get archers to go at it.
secondly as a SK youve got some awesome nukes. use them. that should bring an averagely high 4x mob down to 75% hp or better.
You don't need to use hate every 2-3 secs, if you do you 're prolly just a gimp. I've tanked with a dwarf and a warrior almost a glad and do pretty well, if I had hate I would own at tanking.
So your a lowbie tank. I can tank with a cleric at your levels. The problem lies in the 55+ range when you start going after mobs that actually have an AI. Alot of times, I will pull with aggression, and before they even get to me, they have switched targets to the lowest level party member, BEFORE having been attacked by anyone.
There's another thing besides the weakness of hate that should be fixed... That's the fact only phantom summoners are able to use it on pvp, I'm not sure how is it nowadays precisely though. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think an increase in the amount of hate you get from aggression is needed.
I imagine settings of mob AI are tailored by the devs in an attempt to keep the game from being too trivial -- it should not be the case that people can nuke/archery without fear of over-nuking, but it needs to be in reason.
A tank who can't hold aggro is a sign of poor party cooperation. I'm sure we've all partied with the person who buffs during a pull (oops, my bad :o), and archers or nukers who are way way too twitchy to get their damage in. I've partied with some who brag about their ineptness in always pulling aggro as if it's some badge of honor (here's a clue, wait til after the meatshield hits it once or twice :p). But it also happens too often when people are reasonably responsible about cooperating.
I don't think bumping up the hate would make the pve game too trivial, and would still reward cooperative play.
It's fine how it is. And no you can't tank with a cleric at my lvl that is BS. Don't act like it's so radically different at very high lvls, cause it's not. If i had a DA or whatever I would be an awesome tank. If mob AIis the issue then there nothing raising the value of hate is gonna do if it's programmed to attack the lowest level or the healer or whatever. Tanks just need 1 or 2 Hits with SS in and then use hate as needed and it's fine. If you can't handle things that way your party members are prolly just bad with the timing of their attacks and need to get a clue. Just tell the healer to let them die if they get aggro and they will learn to control their ego-crazed pwnzor damage.
/signed. As a paladin, it is almost impossible for me to hold aggro unless I just spam hate/hate/hate/hate>>MP rest.
that is exactly what you are suppose to do.
Healers spam heal heal heal.
Bounty hunters spam spoil spoil spoil.
Nukers spam nuke nuke nuke.
Daggers spam special special special.
Do you see the pattern here?
If you want a dynamic class, play something with a better soloing ability like a summoner. Tanks are designed for very . like most other classes.
In my experience, the designers of L2 have decided that tanks are not so much about "holding agro". It's not instant death for a healer to be hit by a mob in this game, nor a nuker. Nor is it dangerous for a dd to be taking a few hits from each mob. You constantly regenerate HP, and with vampiric rage, you leech back much much more. Plus, higher up mob AI will, regardless of hate, randomly attack people nearby. Then they go back to where they were before. During that time, all the melee classes chase after it doing no damage, while the ranged classes still hit it and build agro. Then, afterwards, the normal agro rules reset and the agro table is looked at again. Guess who has agro now ;)
IMHO, hate is a good tool for pve, but only for pulling, and spreading out the damage done to your party. It's got a decent range (800 for the higher up tanks) and is very fast casting. If managed properly, you can make it so your melee team never has to move from a spot, which can increase your xp rate. If an archer or dagger pulls hate from you, then you have at least taken a quarter or half of the hits, reducing the amount of mp your healer has to expend. But using it to hold agro? That only works if you have mp to burn, or MUST hold agro. Like with a raid boss.
For raid bosses, you need to spam hate to keep it off the nukers and archers. Much fun indeed. In this case, it works fine. It casts fast enough that the low power will hold 'em. In this case, it's a 'hate per second" value you need to maintain, and lineage lets you do this well. As long as you have enough rechargers your level, that is. :D
A tank who can't hold aggro is a sign of poor party cooperation. I'm sure we've all partied with the person who buffs during a pull (oops, my bad :o), and archers or nukers who are way way too twitchy to get their damage in. I've partied with some who brag about their ineptness in always pulling aggro as if it's some badge of honor (here's a clue, wait til after the meatshield hits it once or twice :p). But it also happens too often when people are reasonably responsible about cooperating.
I agree.
Sometimes I tank with my WS. As I pull the mobs, it is not unusual for the archer to take his shot before the mob has reached the melees. Then we all have to chase down the mob as the archer kites.
Tank can have 6 hits with SS in and spam hate and I will still pull the aggro from him. He can even have 6 lvls more than I and this will still happen. Wanna know why? 1 of my crits generates more aggression than a tank spamming all of his MP on hate. When I get aggro, a tank has _zero_ chance to get it back unless I totally stop hitting and start just running around(which I do in raids since I dont have multiple healers watching my *** for when the boss decides to go after me ^^ usually it hits me 2 times after I got aggro and then switches back to tank.)
Tank is not meant to hold the aggro 100% as Glav said(unless raiding and most of the time he can do it.) but to take some initial hits and then lose it to a bigger DD(preferrably another melee).
I have often tanked as a STR build destroyer. Dont need hate or anything for it, just let me get 2 swings at the mob before others attack. No need for spamming hate or anything ^^
Anyway, a slight increase in hate power would be nice, as it is now, I can do the tanking job and the tank in the party will just be turned into a very gimp DD.
The problem is that in c3 they changed the hate value generated by different classes. Tanks used to generate the most in order to help them mantain aggro. Some dev somewhere decided that was making things way to easy and decided to change the hate generation values. The only problem is they made tanks one of the worst classes at generating hate.
I'm playing a BD now because with vamp rage I hardly ever need heals, and I can hold aggro much more easily than my SK. Even holding back to let him get a few shots in, I pulled aggro from our 75 DA and no amount of hate could get the mob back on him. It's broken, plain and simple.
Ye, I play a Destroyer and I'm the one always getting aggro from the mobs. Makes the tank in the group pretty much useless when he only gets the first hit and then the mobs starts pounding on me.
You guys play with noob tanks if they can't hold aggro. You're not supposed to start off with a hate, you save hate til the moment you lose aggro then you pop it and you get aggro back. Tanks can hold aggro well when they get the 1st hit and they are on top of hate when it is needed.
+1.
u dont seem to realize how to use the hate you have.
first of all, as a tank, youre not supposed to use it on a mob who hasnt hit you. drain the mob of hp till its nearly 75% then use hate THEN get archers to go at it.
secondly as a SK youve got some awesome nukes. use them. that should bring an averagely high 4x mob down to 75% hp or better.
3rd : Shield stun is also realy nice to take aggro back (or simply keep it), dunno why, mob doesnt like it, and even the mob around doesnt like it, shield stun the main target, and all the other will jump back on you.
im a sk and the onlky thing i have problems holding aggro from is over enchanted BOP's and A/S Grade bows every thing else i can keep it off them ( never mind the random 2 or 3 whacks) you need to know what ot hate and when to use hate aura its al la matter of learning how to use the skill
don't know... lvl 62BD here.... with Mixed B/A grade armor (no Armor SAs)
A few good tatoos and b grade dual SLS..
Partied with a lvl 70 tank...a DA
He would use agression, then smack it a few times, i'd step in and within the first 2 swings.... it would be smacking me.. he'd then hate it after it hit me a few times... it'd only turn to hit him, but before getting to him, turn around and start hitting me again..
imo, somethings wrong there... considering he's got a dark legions edge +4 with Focus (i beleive) with a full nightmare set...
I dont think a lvl 61 archer should be pulling a mob off a 71TK with one crit and then constantly having to try and pull it back. Im talking 10f TOI here happening multiple times. I have np with the mages as they rarely pull, one crit from the archer and its game over for the mob on me. And thats kinda sad when they 10 lvls lower.
Just an idea ... I read it somewhere long long time ago when daggers were complaining about the same problem of pulling mobs from tanks ... stop spamming SS at least for a while till mob has some portion of MP gone and is "bond" to tank.
Edit: I'm not saying hate skill should not get some love, but at least this can fix outdamaging tank's hate for a bit.
But then you go back to parties, and when your fighting 5x hp mobs..really whoever fights without spamming ss now. Maybe you could get away with it for clannies, but if your ina pick up grp..you bet your [censored] youd be booted out in a hurry.
Funny how you, as a SK could keep the hate from everything else but those bows, considering that I have more pattk than archers of my lvl sometimes. Not to mention that I crit more, and I crit _hard_. 3,8k dmg on a Physical resistant Green 4x HP mob, not frenzied. You think you could pull that aggression with your hate from me? No, didnt think so. 1 high crit and the tank loses aggro.
And shield stun doesnt seem to bother ToI mobs in any way, they still beat at me after the stun is over(if they even get stunned.) so perhaps it's not our tanks that are "noobs" but your DDs that are not really doing what they should be doing.
Hate needs to be looked at, it isnt really that usefull as it is now. Most of the places dont even need a real tank to begin with :)
Ive played a paladin since day 1 and i love it ...
i agree hate aura and agression should get their values for generating hate made higher. but i cant really complain since ive never had that problem . ive played in saints necro/cat with ppl roughly 5-8 lvl above me. a melee dd was pullin since i was lower lvl and i always ended up taking aggro ofa him... like someone said earlier mobs must hate shield stun for some reason. when im ever main tank i usually start off with aggression adn then with shield stun ......for pullin mltiple mobs aggresion when i get aggro i hit hate aure and then i shield stun my first target ... mp is not a big issue most of the time.. it usually runs ou byt hte time the mages neep a break too.. if someone doies pull aggro from me i just use agression on it and i get it back ...
but yes sometimes your party is the problem archers buffer, healer, do their thign before u can .. its always a good idea to talk strategy with ur team beofre startin to help make things flow easier :D
just my thoughts (and i apologize but i suck at writing and never kwno when to space my paragraphs :P sorry for the future eye problmes :))
I personally don't see the problem with increasing the power of a tank's hate skills. Tanks already havew problems that they can fairly justify to complain about, they don't need their role usurped by people dealing more damage than they.
Those of you calling tanks n00b for not knowing how to keep aggro from archers, are the real n00bs in here ;) Just wanted to say that first.
I play a Sagittarius (HE) and we sometimes have 70-75 tanks in our group, he got no chance to keep aggro for more than a few seconds, no amount of hate can hold them. Yeh yeh, we can wait until he hits it a few times, but it doesn't matter, one crit, and it's bye bye. Doesn't help that 90% of the tanks do -STR while most real DDs do +STR.
Countrary to what some have said here, that tanks shouldn't be tanking (what!?), they should hold aggro off their partymembers, it's their job! Like it is now, that job is impossible for them. I think one source of the problem is soulshots, DDs generate way too much hate when using SS, and who doesn't these days ni high level dungeons? Make SS work with hate, and increase hate generation for tanks, alot.