My clan mates and I have been working on this quest for about 4 months now. Prior to C4, it was our #1 priority, due to the fact that it was the ONLY way to get A grade helmets, boots, and gloves. (aside from Raid Bosses, which were actually a better means in C3.) 3 items which every single player in A grade wants.
For anyone who is not aware of how the quest works, let me give a brief overview.
Speak with Warehouse Keeper Walderall in Aden WH. He gives you the quest and a list of mobs that can be killed to gain parchments. The mobs essentially span most of the floors of TOI, and there are four colors of parchments that can be obtained.
Once you obtain a parchment, you open it, and can obtain several different things, including junk, a TOI Blueprint, or a chapter of a book.
There are 4 or 5 chapters to a set and there are several sets of chapters, when you turn them in you can get Mats for A grade helms, boots, gloves, or money. Typically this isn't a big deal, because there are many sources for A grade helm, boots, and glove mats. If we were forced to rely soley on this quest to obtain them, this would be a huge area of complaint, but it's not the only source, so this really doesn't matter.
Essentially, below the 6th floor of TOI, the parchments you receive will give chapters of books and junk.
Above the 5th floor, the parchments you open will give either TOI Blueprints or Junk. It takes 13 Blueprints, one of each floor, to complete a set that can then be turned in to WHKeeper Walderall. When you turn in the set, you get to choose which type of armor you desire, Tallum, DC, Majestic, or NM. At that point you can receive 1 of several different rewards, you either get a Helm, Boot, or Glove recipe, a set of all 3 recipes, a random mat, or a small amount of adena.
Up until now this is a pretty cool sounding quest in my book. It's fairly cool in structure, has lots of reward types and choices, creates a market for the quest items, and in general I like the idea of it.
Here is the problem:
The mobs that give the parchments are pretty much one to a floor, so if you are working a room only 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 mobs you kill actually has the potential of giving a parchement. This is worsened by the fact that of the mobs you kill that give parchments, it's been my experience that you only get a parchement somewhere between 20% and 30% of the time.
As an example, a group of 9 killing at a good clip for 3 hours where all 9 members have the quest, will be very very lucky to average 2 parchments each in a 3 hour period. So the drop rate on these things is pretty low. Then you have the random factor of opening them. You either get a random floor, or junk, and some floors are considerably more rare than others.
Once you do get complete a set of Blueprints, the reward you get is then semi-random. At least you get to choose your armor type.
The core of the problem is that the parchment drop rate is low considering the number of blueprints needed for a set, and the fact that some of them are extremely rare. On top of that, the reward is random as to which type of recipe you will get, and finally, if you do get the recipe you want you are then faced with a 60% chance of it actually working.
Now I'll be the first one to agree that this stuff should not be easy to get. I also really like the idea that this quest requires teamwork to complete.
The problem is that when it's all said and done, the **** thing is nearly impossible for real players. It has now gotten worse in C4 with the new rule that you can only get 1 quest item per mob, because there are at least 2 other quests that overlap this one.
I see several very workable solutions to the problem with this quest.
1. Increase the parchment drop rate.
2. Increase the number and variety of mobs that drop the parchments.
3. Change the reward option so that you choose the armor type and recipe type that you want. Remove the random mats and junk from the reward table all together.
As I mentioned previously, this quest wasn't a huge deal in C3, because most A grade helms, boots, and gloves came from Raid Boss drops. Since the Raid Boss drop tables have changed, and they are now being farmed 24/7, the possibility of getting A grade Helms especially has been limited to this quest for the majority of regular players. As evidence that this is broken, I offer that A grade helms sell for an average of 30 to 40 times what the materials cost to make them.
It has now gotten worse in C4 with the new rule that you can only get 1 quest item per mob, because there are at least 2 other quests that overlap this one.
Where is this rule documented. I hunt on TOI 10 and have gotten both sweet fluids (fishing shot quest) and black papyrus at the same time.
Last night, after 2 hours on TOI 10, I had no black papyrus, but my clan leader had gotten 3 papyrus and 300+ sweat fluids.
The fact that you get no quest drops over a few hours proves nothing.
I do agree that the junk rewards are very insulting. You do all that work, and get nothing of any serious value. The developers are generally extremely bad at making quests worth your while. Perhaps this is one reason adena sales are a big part of the game.
That rule is now in place, you can not recieve two quest items at the same time from the same mob anymore. If no one hasnt, ill look it up after lunch. Its in one of the patch notes.
Edit: This isnt the main focus of this post though so who cares lol
I believe that depends on the quest(s). Yesterday in DV (for example) I received both a Gold Wyvvern and Articles of Dead Heros from the same mob. Perhaps it is because one is a quest item and one is a tradable item, but that is speculation on my part.
do what I do, sell the BPs at ridiculous prices and buy your equipment outright, lol. There are some BPs that I can sell for a few million......or be that sucker that buys what floors you need from me :)
I agree this quest sucks. I just take advantage of other people to make bank on it. In C3 I made like 20 mil in a week selling BPs.
If it's not true, and you can recieve 2 quest items at once, then it's even worse than I thought. I was under the impressions that we have been getting less parchments because of this new rule. If that's not the case then the quest is even more broken.
So please.. this is a discussion on how broken the legacy of insolence quest is.
Yes it's wicked broken. I've only ever completed one full set of BP's, and got three A grade armor mats. I could get those in 10 mins in a party with a BH. I'm not sure how a quest could get any worst than this one, really.
1) Unlikely to get a complete set of BP's even with a full week of grinding, or more
2) Likely to get complete junk when opening the parchments
3) Unlikely to get the recipe you need.
4) And STILL have a 40% change to fail the craft.
Those odds are why I'm 71 and still not in A grade.
All A grade armor quest sucks, not just the TOI one, the TOI one is just 'more' nightmarish as you need 13 items but the rest still such as much.
Took me about 3 months hunting in GC to get a full set of 5 items for my armor, from that point I started to buy, first try I managed to get the recipe i wanted, but failed the craft, then it took 4 more tries befor I yet got another recipe and luckely manage to craft it that time, it took yeah 3 months. the last tries went fast as I bought copies of them but to obtain them in the first place is a nightmare.
Curently doing the TOI quest now but my goal is just pay for hte helmet when I've farmed enought cash from the quest as it's pointless turning it in for a random reward, as you mentioned it, like 20% reward, then an 60% chans to sucseed the craft..... thats like what? 12% chans to sucseed it over all ?............ and yes it takes far beyoind 500-600 hours grinding there to get ONE set.
Lucky days I get 3-4 quest items, usualy never any TOI flors just grap quest items who give 1 mats... I meen LOL............ I spoil more hten 15-20 of the same type of mats under that time.
I have been working on obtaining a full majestic robe set for 7 months now. Out of 7 submitted BP's, only 1 gave a rec I needed and it failed on craft. I'm disgusted with this quest and resent playing legitimately rewarding me with grinding from 52 to my current level of 68 using B grade when so many others are enjoying A grade the moment they hit 61.
This quest just doesn't make any sense to me. You can spend a month grinding in TOI for the BP's which will give you a random (and small) chance of getting the rec you need which presents yet another chance of actually being successful or in my case, failure.
Actually on average you need to play 1000-1500 hours or so if you never buy em ^^ buy em is just insane to in the end cost way to much to get all the recipes you want and sucseed craft it. Ofcorse you canbe lucky and have ita fter 100-200 hour hunting there, or well yeah... never....
In the end your beter of hunting monsters who drop them rater then the quest as the quest is just so screwed up. most mobs have an like 1/25000+ or so drop rate, and you can easely kill 100-150 monsters per hour. thats ONLY 160-250 HOURS HUNTING!!!!
Yes I'm dead serious, someone this quest design is EXTREAMLY FLAWED!
I experianced the same thing. Took me about....oh i dont know, probably 150 hours (2/3 months) to get most the BP's, then traded some around in the clan to get the whole set together, and then got a Tallum Glove Recipe (I already bought the gloves). I havnt been in TOI since then lol. Only reason i have my Tallum set it because i'd rather spend 150 hours fishing and seeding.
My old clan hunted in ToI exclusively, and pooled for the handins, prioritising members on who got the first successful recipes based on their contribution and the urgency I think.
Worked out pretty well for them.
The main problem with A Grade is still that so many ebayers have it, not that it's so difficult to obtain.
Very frustrating to say the least. Since C3 came out, I've managed to collect all the BP except for 2 floors that are very difficult to get. My clan hunts on TOI 7-10 regularly (20+) and I think as a clan we've put together 2 full sets and didn't get any recipes out of it. When I look in the clan WH, I find 100's of the same BP (3 and 8), and none or very few of some others.
Just as frustrating is the Reagents quest from Ivory Tower. To anybody that has this signed up, quit it now. As a clan, we have 1000's of quest drops over the last 9 months, but still don't have enough of the right drops to craft a single pair of Blue Wolf gloves.
My old clan hunted in ToI exclusively, and pooled for the handins, prioritising members on who got the first successful recipes based on their contribution and the urgency I think.
Worked out pretty well for them.
The main problem with A Grade is still that so many ebayers have it, not that it's so difficult to obtain.
How many people were doing it and how long did it take to equip the whole clan in helms?
Our clan hasn't been exclusively TOI, but for a few months anyone high enough level was up there, and we got more helms from RB drops than we did the quest. Which is sad since now there are no RB's and if there were, they don't drop full helms anyhow. :(
I still don't understand the reasoning behind making A grade weapon and Jewelry recipes drop/spoil in C4, but not armor recipes.
If you're able to find any that aren't farmed within a minute of spawning, raid bosses may still be the better option. Sure, it's not as good as it was before, but you know what the alternative is like.
A grade is just part of the progression of the game, honestly you don't need anything. The PTS proved that a high enough level toon in lux shop gear can still kill and have fun.
The thing is that getting better gear is a part of the game, just like leveling up. This particular part of getting better gear relies ona quest that is broken. I say broken, because I know for a fact that a 9 person party who plays 3 or 4 hours per day will take at least 6 months to get each person a pair of boots, a helm, and a pair of gloves. Considering that they would still be in need of a weapon and jewelry to have full A grade, I'm going to say that that's a bit excessive.
RMT really has nothing to do with this discussion, nor does it belong in this thread, since we can debate all day on whether it is a cause or a symptom of the problem I am bringing up.
If you're able to find any that aren't farmed within a minute of spawning, raid bosses may still be the better option. Sure, it's not as good as it was before, but you know what the alternative is like.
The best alternative is to find some other way to make money and then just buy the gear on the market at the super overinflated price it goes for.
That's not the topic though. The topic is that the **** quest is broken because it takes a ridiculous amount of time to get a recipe that still has a 40% chance of going poof.
That rule is now in place, you can not recieve two quest items at the same time from the same mob anymore. If no one hasnt, ill look it up after lunch. Its in one of the patch notes.
Edit: This isnt the main focus of this post though so who cares lol
This isn't true. I have gotten both Stolen Infernium Ore and Kails Blood Dragons off the same Fallen Orc Shaman.
I have also gotten Zombie Brains and Sweet fluids off the same mobs in Forrest of the Dead.
But I am sure that you are one of those "If you don't post a SS, it didn't happen" types.
I still don't feel A or S Grade are a natural progression of gear you "should" have, due to the 60% craft thing.
And yes, the fact that RMT and the related excessive farming of these quests has made A Grade so common has a lot to do with whether or not this is to be considered broken.
That rule is now in place, you can not recieve two quest items at the same time from the same mob anymore. If no one hasnt, ill look it up after lunch. Its in one of the patch notes.
Edit: This isnt the main focus of this post though so who cares lol
This isn't true. I have gotten both Stolen Infernium Ore and Kails Blood Dragons off the same Fallen Orc Shaman.
I have also gotten Zombie Brains and Sweet fluids off the same mobs in Forrest of the Dead.
But I am sure that you are one of those "If you don't post a SS, it didn't happen" types.
Naw, I'm one of those who doesn't care if it's true or not. In fact, as I mentioned previously, if you can actually get multiple quest items at once then the quest is even more borked than I previously thought. I was under the impression that we got less on our last few trips because of some new rule. Since you say it isn't true though, obviously we just got less parchments because the quest is broken.
I am a clan leader on Hindemith. My clan generally shares BP's with the clan wh. Most of my clan puts them in after a hunt unopened. Sometimes I try to organize long hunts up in the floors of toi to get BP's. Since I do it as a clan event, and my alliance is an extension of my clan, we do rather well. It's still slow, but its bearable as we see results. This week, I've gotten 2 DC helm rec's throught the quest from donated BP's that I opened. Both helms failed, but the oppurtunity was there. I have also gottne a majestic helm rec for myself about 8 months ago, and a NM helm rec in december that succeeded. I also give back the other recipes such as gloves and boots to any clan member in need, so they have the oppurtunity to craft.
I think this event was supposed to be a clan thing, not a do it yourself in groups thing. From my experience(just my own thoughts)
BP 6 & 7 open from primarily red papyrus
BP 5 opens from mostly white
BP 11,12,13 Mostly from black, with the occasional blue papyrus.
But I agree that there are rare ones, and that should be fixed IMO, this isn't the monopoly game at mcdonalds, its a quest that should have even drop rates of each BP.
I still don't feel A or S Grade are a natural progression of gear you "should" have, due to the 60% craft thing.
And yes, the fact that RMT and the related excessive farming of these quests has made A Grade so common has a lot to do with whether or not this is to be considered broken.
What does 60% craft have to do whether or not A grade is the natural progression?
Are we playing the same game here? In the one I play it goes NG, D, C, B, A, S grade.. it' the umm. natural progression of gear upgrades through the game.
I see though that you would like to argue over how available A grade should be.
Cool, we can argue that since it is related to the thread, although it's really a moot point since there is no evidence to support either of our cases, and it's really just a matter of opinion.
Since C4, A grade weapon and Jewelry recipes and mats have become readily available. A few hours of spoiling and/or farming the right mobs and I can come home with a wide variety of either. Within a week of farming I can easily gather the key mats to make most A grade weapons and armor. This leaves me with the feeling that A grade is no longer meant for the elite, but rather for the masses.
On top of all that, it's not about the gear we "should" have, it's about the gear that we want. If NCSoft wanted us to get into A grade at lvl 74, they could have simply made the quests for it start at lvl 70 rather than lvl 59. (two levels before you can even wear it.) Furthermore, the majority of the other A grade quests (robes/armor/weapons) start at mid 50's. One can only assume that by making the quests available at such an early level that they did indeed intend for us to get A grade at a reasonable level to use. Reasonable to me is on the order of say lvl 65-68.
What I am seeing does not reflect this at all. I see people now who work hard for it, playing legitly, getting Top A grade everything except helmet by lvl 65, and then being stuck with the feeling that the helmets are going to take another 6 months to get, if at all.
If this is what is intended by NCSoft, then it is very poor game design, as people who feel that sense of "never" being able to accomplish their goals end up quitting and/or cheating.
I am a clan leader on Hindemith. My clan generally shares BP's with the clan wh. Most of my clan puts them in after a hunt unopened. Sometimes I try to organize long hunts up in the floors of toi to get BP's. Since I do it as a clan event, and my alliance is an extension of my clan, we do rather well. It's still slow, but its bearable as we see results. This week, I've gotten 2 DC helm rec's throught the quest from donated BP's that I opened. Both helms failed, but the oppurtunity was there. I have also gottne a majestic helm rec for myself about 8 months ago, and a NM helm rec in december that succeeded. I also give back the other recipes such as gloves and boots to any clan member in need, so they have the oppurtunity to craft.
I think this event was supposed to be a clan thing, not a do it yourself in groups thing. From my experience(just my own thoughts)
BP 6 & 7 open from primarily red papyrus
BP 5 opens from mostly white
BP 11,12,13 Mostly from black, with the occasional blue papyrus.
But I agree that there are rare ones, and that should be fixed IMO, this isn't the monopoly game at mcdonalds, its a quest that should have even drop rates of each BP.
That's not alot of helmet recipes compared to the amount of manpower you describe working towards it. Did you say that you've gotten 3 helmet recipes in 4 months and that 2 of them failed on the craft?
I agree that it's supposed to be a clan thing, and I'm down with that, I even like the idea. The problem is it shouldn't require the whole clan to be stuck in TOI for 6 months in order to put a helmet on the head of 5 members.
Exactly. I've had A grade robes without the helmet since I was roughly 63. I'm now 71, I'll be ready for C grade again before I get my A I think. That's not right.
Exactly. I've had A grade robes without the helmet since I was roughly 63. I'm now 71, I'll be ready for C grade again before I get my A I think. That's not right.
Actually, I think this was the point of the quest. Make you run through B grade twice before you can get A grade once.
3 DC helmet recipes this week, 2 others since december. It isn't a lot, but those were the 5 instances we hunted them. It wasn't consistent hunting for solely BP's. My clannees have faith and trust that I don't screw them over, so they give me the recs/key mats and BP's by way of donation to the clan wh, and I give them the successful crafts back, taking ss of every craft, so if there is ever a doubt, I can assure them I am doing the right thing in my mind.
Back to your point, would be a lot better if they just evened out the BP open rate %. We have 1 7 in my clan wh now, and over 100 8's
I have turned in two sets of BP's and recieved a Maj circ recipe, and NM helm recipe. Both recipes resulted in successfull crafts. I am now putting together my third set of BP's.
I have turned in two sets of BP's and recieved a Maj circ recipe, and NM helm recipe. Both recipes resulted in successfull crafts. I am now putting together my third set of BP's.
How long did it take you to gather them, and did you buy the parchments/BP's or did you farm them yourself.
I myself turned in 1 set and got Tallum Gloves, Boots, and Helm. The other 4 sets I know of that got turned in only 1 gave a helmet recipe. It took about 250 to 300 player hours of farming in TOI to get the BP's for those 5 turn ins.
When it was all said and done, we ended up with a single Helmet, which is pretty poor for that many hours of farming. (unless you have the magical ability to farm 24/7, in which case it's really not that bad...LMAO)
My clan is international (again my alliance is considered my clan), so we kept 2-3 parties for about 24 hours. One of these occasions I got 2 recs, 1 helm, the other we didnt even complete a set. But, we had 12 of the 13 BP in the wh, so that as time went on, we were able to complete many sets completely. Its a patience thing, and I still agree, it needs to be fixed.
wow..
2 parties.. 18 people.. 24 hours.. umm that's 432 playerhours. To get 2 recipes.. that's 266 hr's per recipe. umm yeah..
To have one time you didn't even complete a set is really even scarrier.
Regardless, 265 hr's to get a set is out of control. For someone who plays 4 hr's a day (which is still quite alot of playing) that's over 60 days to get a recipe. ROFL.. you better hope it's the right one, and on top of that you better pray to whatever you believe in that the 60% craft works.
Not the same 18 people mind you hehe. We switched out as different people logged on and others went to bed. Sometimes we had as many as 4 parties there.
Naw man, we're on the same page. I don't think that the quest really considers the players.. I was just adding up the total number of player hours you guys put into it.
I have turned in at least a dozen sets of blueprints. I have only obtained 2 of the rare bps from hunting. The rest were purchased. At one point I had turned in 6 sets in a row to only get parts.
As a crafter I feel really screwed, because I have to get 2 of each recipe to craft my own. I never could get a second gauntlets recipe, paid 28 mil to buy them.
So far my recipe book contains only 6 of the 12 recipes. Purchasing recipes is too expansive compared to the craft fees I can charge.
I agree Bighands, the quest is full of random chances at all stages.
It would be a great deal better if you got at least one recipe of the type you wanted. So many times you just get a material which is completely useless. After all the work to get to that stage, if they want the reward random, fine, but don't give mats. Make it from 1-3 random recipes of the type you selected.
There are many ways to improve this quest but who knows if it will happen.
They also did add Maj Circlets and Nightmare Helmets as normal raid boss drops in C4. This doesn't matter much though because as you said, farmers dominate the raid bosses. If the farmers aren't dominating the bosses, the exploiters are :)
Unfortunately, it's probably all by random distribution.
(Imma show off my statistics from 2 semesters ago!!!)
When things are distributed randomly, if you chart them, it very seldom "looks random." In a true random distribution, there are always rares & commons, it's just than no one really decides which are which.
When you see an evenly spaced random distribution chart, it's usually.. too random.. to actually be random.
That being said, they need to just make the #^@$ recipes ALL DROP AND SPOIL IN C4.
I was reading in another thread, and someone I was not familliar with (doesn't mean they're NOT on hinde, just that I dunno them) had the same rare blueprints (5/12/13) that we do.
It would seem a stretch that all the same servers would have the same "random" rare parts to a quest..
NC, I know the a recipe quests are supposed to be difficult, but this is ridiculous.
This quest sucks SO hard. Turned bp sets in four times - first time I got a maj boots recipe, craft failed. The other three times I only got mats. In the end the dark lord / raid boss event helped me BUY my majestic circlet. It is absolutely ridiculous - all the A grade mats drop/spoil now, A grade weapon recipes drop/spoil, jewelry recipes drop/spoil, just A grade armor recipes still have to be earned via quests. Drops from raid bosses would be the best way to get A grade helmets, but the raid bosses are in the hands of the farmers now. Everything A grade has dropped in price in C4 because it is readily available if you have a BH. But the helmets actually INCREASED in price, by 100% and more...
Oh yes, and the Ivory Tower (supplier of potion) quest sucks, too. To get avadon/zubei boots/gloves, you need 100 lava stones, 100 demon blood and a small number of other quest items. That is actually easy to do since the lava stones drop in Blazing Swamp and you literally cannot walk out of TOI without getting hundred or more demon blood items. But to get blue wolf, you need *800* quest items, and mainly from lower level TOI and DC mobs, which you quickly outgrow. The amount of quest items required is ridiculous, it probably is quicker to simply hunt for the mats/recipes.
Friend of mine got very, very rich on this quest... how so?
Before you get too exited... he was very rich before... now he's super rich. So don't think you can repeat it.
Simply buy papyrus for ~100 mil adena from farmers and you will eventually get enough recipes and resulting boots/gloves/helmets to multiply your investment. You don't have 100mil to start with? Well~~
Friend of mine got very, very rich on this quest... how so?
Before you get too exited... he was very rich before... now he's super rich. So don't think you can repeat it.
Simply buy papyrus for ~100 mil adena from farmers and you will eventually get enough recipes and resulting boots/gloves/helmets to multiply your investment. You don't have 100mil to start with? Well~~
Cal
I would say that having to buy the parchments and BP's from the farmers definitely points to a broken quest. rofl
However he got his own majestic boots gloves and circlet from this quest as well... not to mention crafting done for clannies. Unfortunately that doesn't include my poor self. ^^
4 sets of BP's turned in over the course of (whenever c4 started) has resulted in 4 parts... I dont buy BP's if I could help it but after 5 months of nothing but crap I had to buy my 5th floor.
REJOICE!!! Finally got my 3 recipes... had to have someone else turn them in since 4 failed attempts is too disgouraging...
YES!! finally get to craft my helm and complete the set thats been sitting in my WH for the past 6 months...
Gee what a surprise.. it failed.. Basicly I got 2 choices... wait till C6 befroe I MIGHT finish my A grade.. or do what NCStupid is obviously intending and hit up the ole adena "traders"
cause with a quest as screwed up, mis-managed, random, heartless and idioticly implamented as this one... you pretty much have almost NO choice but to "play at the next level" in order to actually play at the same lvl as everyone else.
I started the quest in early C3, got heaps of the same useless side rewards and about 5 BPs. That is up to now! I'm not playing often in ToI but this would actually be a perfect scenario to point out how a casual player's chances are for this quest - non existing.
Oh and even the side rewards have rare chapters, eg Epic #5 or Seals #1. When I recently got a Seal #1, I turned it in and got... 4K Adena... for hunting something for more or less five months now. I actually petitioned a GM and he said (after a good eight hours by the way, I had a lunch and a dinner break in between ?) something along the lines of "that is one of the quest rewards, better luck next time."
Next time? So in another five month I may hand in the complete Epic and get another 4K Adena?
All the while the other six Seals and four Epics are cramming my WH in abundance?
I just know that with my track record I'll hand in the BPs and get one mat, most likely a glove mat, since I'll have that by then... >_>
But the helmets actually INCREASED in price, by 100% and more...
Helmets now cost several million, sometimes several tens of millions, more than A grade weapons. If that isn't telling enough... >_<
Oh and what Zyph wrote - 100% true.
Namárië
Badger[49]
PS: Not that I'm even expecting a response, far from expeting an actual change coming out of this... They'll prolly just use Zyph's post as an excuse to get rid of this uncomfortable thread.
Epic chapters does not give ANY recipe, Only 1 KEY items of tallum OR, 4k adena, so yeah.
They aint luckely hard to obtiann, took me an month to have a compelte set of epic :P but surly pointless as really under one night hutn I've spoiled enought key items for an set anyway....
Yep. On Kain a SoM is down to around 75 mill, a dragon slayer 45 mill, BotMT around 40. But a majestic helm, if you can find it, is well over 150 to 200 mill.
It sounds to me like the quest is working as it was intended. By severely restricting the amount of A-Grade helm recipes, not all players will have the resistances that the sets give.
Those that do are lucky, those that don't, well .. better luck next time. You can still parade around without a helm pretending that you have the set.
Your frustrated because you feel you've been cheated by the system. The system is the same regardless of who you are, attempts are not effected by previous attemps. Your just out of luck, try again.
It boils down to selfish, personal desires. "Oh but it's too hard", whats next, a thread about how hard it is to get +15 weapons? The game developers know what they are doing because in all honesty +50% or +70% resistances are overpowered. Get with the program people!
Yes but when you completely frustrate your player base, some might just say "screw this" and give up. I had a DC set without the helm near the beginning of C3. I got lucky and crafted the robe, the boots and gloves were fairly cheap. Come C4 (9+ MONTHS later) I still didn't have my helm. I sold all that and bought all majestic, again without the helm. I'm going on 2+ months like that. I'm not the only one either.
There's a point where the rare becomes the almost impossible and all it does it make people mad. I have patience but its worn extremely thin at this point.
DeathCoil, i would hardly call it selfish. If anything it makes clans/alliances have to unite to get there most loyal members the sets the deserve. Main Problem? When a whole Clan of 30+ members cant even get one helm by combining there BP's for a month or two, somethings wrong.
When the market is dominated by the farmers because they are the only groups able to reliably get helmet recipes and helmet drops, you know there is somthing seriously wrong. I know of one farmer group that has already pulled out of Lineage, deactivated all thier accounts, liquidated out all of thier stocks(I bought up some material stocks he had for dirt cheap) all because his moneymaking potential went downhill in C4. His profit margin in C4 dropped like a stone. He had 5-6 toons out hunting blood medusas at all times, and 2-3 groups in Forsaken Plains getting Kail coins(he would buy blades from people, including crappy stuff like Halberd). He said that with recipes spoiling and dropping, and parts being so easy to get, there was just no point in crafting and selling anymore. So, one farmer group down. Push out the armor recipes, and more will fall.
It sounds to me like the quest is working as it was intended. By severely restricting the amount of A-Grade helm recipes, not all players will have the resistances that the sets give.
Those that do are lucky, those that don't, well .. better luck next time. You can still parade around without a helm pretending that you have the set.
Your frustrated because you feel you've been cheated by the system. The system is the same regardless of who you are, attempts are not effected by previous attemps. Your just out of luck, try again.
It boils down to selfish, personal desires. "Oh but it's too hard", whats next, a thread about how hard it is to get +15 weapons? The game developers know what they are doing because in all honesty +50% or +70% resistances are overpowered. Get with the program people!
You have a small point, in that they clearly designed this quest to be difficult.
But it is not simply just difficult, it's completely random on multiple levels.
You could compare it to hand farming the adena from drops for a Top C weapon, hand farming the adena for 8 enchant scrolls and getting it to +8. Of course it's not quite the same, but it requires that many things to occur, many of which are random and have to go your way a great deal of times concurrently.
Of course your theory would hold even more weight if it werent for the secondary market and 3rd party programs. Without those there would be much less helmets around and much more raid bosses. In addition to this, the best areas to get the blueprints wouldn't have been overrun with masses of bots preventing players from hunting there themselves.
Wouldn't make the quest any easier though, just means everyone is playing the same game and facing the same challenge. This would make the quest more acceptable in one way and more unacceptable in another.
It's more acceptable because you know it's the only way to get what you want and there are no alternatives. In addition to this you know that anyone who has a Helmet completely earned it the way you are attempting to.
But it would be somewhat unacceptable because the Helmet's would be far rarer than they are now and many more people would be completely without A Grade sets and this of course is unacceptable in many players eyes.
I liked your point about the farmers. This is not our responsability however, so the thread in essense (at least in part) boils down to NcSoft & thier responsability to stop farmers but more importantly, players who buy adena.
But now your saying, if farmers were gone, it would be even harder to get the helmets. Assuming your doing what you should be doing, the right way that is, then nothing really changes for you.
Sounds to me, like everyone and thier mother has to ebay to get these helmets because of the infestation, the humiliation and agrivation caused by farmers.
I really hate farmers and ebayers, I do things the hard way, by myself I don't care how long it takes. I don't find the quest all that hard, alright, if you guys wanna try and change that, good for you. However, I don't care about ebayers or farmers because at this point they are a part of the game, always have and (big shock here) always will. WHy? Because the company that manages this game, im sorry to say, is not doing enough to stop it and they know it.
Probably going to lock this thread now cause, you know, policy and all that :o
There's no need to even bring up farmers or ebayers.
A normal player in a normal clan, even on the most perfect server (no one else in TOI) would have a hell of a time getting their helm from this quest. That's what we're talking about.
There's no need to even bring up farmers or ebayers.
A normal player in a normal clan, even on the most perfect server (no one else in TOI) would have a hell of a time getting their helm from this quest. That's what we're talking about.
The previous estimate put it at roughly 250 hrs of farming TOI to get a helmet recipe, which you then have a 60% chance of crafting.
In my mind, 250 hours isn't difficult, it's ridiculous. For a casual player, 250 hours might be a freaking year of playtime. Even for the more than casual player, that's over 2 months of playtime.. to get a chance at crafting a helm.
And of course, it's Cliffen who usually has it (helms), and has been regularly jacking up the price of it. Dark Crystal Helmet was, at the start of C3, at 40 million, because it, like the Tallum helm, nobody really wanted it, but the Majestic helmets back then already cost 70 -90 million. Farmers setting the price, of course.
When a DC helmet recipe did pop up on the market, it was priced at 40 million.
Where are we regular/casual players supposed to get that? (Yes, us casual players who don't resort to the secondary market and play legitly)
Oh, and when I was on PTS, wearing C grade gear vs A grade mobs hurt like hell . I don't believe for one moment that you're not supposed to have the gear when you have the grade. A few levels without it is fine, but all of it?
Also, those bonuses available on the A grade armor sets make good sense when you're facing the 60+ mobs - most of them hit hard AND cast a lot of stuff / use skills on you, so it isn't just the whole cosmetic happy look OR PVP reasons. You can't hunt the light blue/dark blue mobs without being screwed over for the xp/sp/drops, but aren't properly geared to face the ones you're supposed to fight.
Seriously, NCSoft, the quest is so badly broken it's not funny. And, where's that drop/spoil table you promised us? It would be nice if we could confirm that A grade armor recs drop off of mobs. And please, for the love of people who don't have bounty hunter alts/friends in A grade? make them drop too, not just spoil. Okies?
Yep, good old Cliffen. Even if I could afford him, I just can't justify spending well over 100 mill for his helms. At least his weapons are coming down :/ I can get an A grade weapon way way sooner than a helm. Heck I could buy two before I could get my helm.
I dont necessarily think the quest is broken.. but its nto on par with the others..
Sure its long an annoying and takes alot of time.. but thats how quests are... or should be.
Quests shoudl either be easier then this one.. or just as hard.
if you wanna limit stuff.. limit it all.. not just 2 types of armor.. Weapons should be harder to get then armor.. or JUST as hard to get as the armor currently is...
Its not balanced!!! :P
I remember in C3 we went into ToI to hunt one night and I trained a group up there, one of the stacks they dropped was 50+ White Papyrus. We cracked all 50, and did not complete a BP set. A clanmate has been buying Black paps for 100k each in batches of 50(twice) and has only completed one set of BPs. If you can crack 50 papyrus in a row and NOT complete a set, thats a bit disheartening considering the drop rate of papyrus. The red and blue Papyrus are pointless honestly, they dont have the rare floors. You have to go to 8, 9 or 10 to get the rare ones. And while we're at it, why doesnt 11th floor have quest drops of any kind? Its my favorite floor to hunt on because its always empty(no bots, no other players since theres no quest drops). 9 is an annoying floor for me, fast respawns, binder groups are just "in the way". We've taken to just running around on the wall just fighting what spawns there.
I'd heard weapons were coming down, but for someone like me who thinks "Waaiiiii!!! I made a million!!!!" is a big deal I can't justify those prices to myself at all.
Besides, my partner in madness - erh, crafting says that for the price of ONE DC helm, we could attempt five, even buying all the blueprints and mats. She's the one who also sold a friend a Nightmare heavy (body) for just 13.5 mil (when it was going for far, far more than that, and says she still made enough profit to attempt two more. My reaction to this still remains. But then, I could never screw my friends over pricewise...)
<.< none of the other quests (for graded gear, let's leave luxury stuff out) are as aggravating. The A grade robe quest comes pretty darned close though. I still haven't completed a single A grade robe quest (level 60+ bd lfg to hunt kariks pleeeeeeease???? Just so I can complete the )(@*#$@ thing and cancel the quest?!) The robe one requires at least 2 really good dds and evasion tank + 2 healers and myself. On the other hand, I've never hunted in the upper ToI floors with anything less than a full party.
The robe one isn't nearly as bad.. it is random at the end, but it never gives out junk. I've done it several times. The hardest part here is getting a group to hunt Kariks.. take a couple mages it'll make your life way easier.
umm 2 batches of 50 parchments and can't complete a full set of BP's. you have got to be kidding me, I didn't realize it was quite that bad. :(
100 parchments bought, he collected enough to turn in 1 set, had a spare 5th to give to clan to finish a set, and was only lacking an 11 to finish a second set out of the 100 parchments(clan gave him one).
We turned in our 3rd set so far(as a clan), total rewards to date? 1 Majestic Boot recipe(failed), 2 majestic boot linings. The person who bought the parchments recieved a NM helm Recipe(Failed) and 1 nightmare glove lining for his 2 turnins. Now..if you want to talk alliance wide, we've recieved a total of 4 helmet recipes, across a full alliance, in 6 months or so of trying. This quest is completely and utterly ludicrous.
My advice for anyone doing this quest is this STOP!!! Its a waste of time you will never get everything you need unless you hunt in a party that trade the quest items back and forth and you hunt here for 20-30 levels. I think TOi is a waste now with the new areas. In a group of 9 killing angels I got about 12000 xp every angel which took about 20 seconds to kill in FOTD I kill mobs solo in less then 10 seconds and get up to 13k xp
guees im going to drop my need for NM helm. TOI prints for what I need are just too expensive to buy and thats just the chance to get the recipe. I havent even tried putting it together yet. Im looking at prolly 30mil n blueprints that gives me the "chance" to maybe get the helm recipe. If I get the recipe, then 60% chance that it will actually work
Friend of minc tried to make the Dragonslayer and "FAILED". That cost him around 20mil in mats. He wont be dealing with that loss.(you can figure where im going).
TOI quest falls into the same category as the GIANTS cave quests. I wont do that one either. I wont spend 6 months farming "anything" in this game. Its ridiculous to ask anyone who is not using a 3rd party program to spend an UNGODLY amount of time with very slim rewards.
The longer I talk the more I get upset over this. And when the topic doesnt go where you want it to go, NCSoft just deletes it so others never really see how we all feel about it.
As we need to get A grade gear. A LOT more easily.
After about 40 hours with a trio in GC (read 120 hours then...) we don't have a single set of giant book chapters for a single reward.
We all 3 are level 61 hunting whites and unclanned at the moment.
Now ToI quest...
There is simply no way for us to get the recipes besides buying the blueprints.
(yeah we could be clanned it just happens we aren't... but we were... and still couldn't get to those ToI levels without being wiped due to the new clan war system... so yes even if it's a cool idea to introduce a need to be clanned to get them... then it would have been a cooler idea to think about the possibility of being excluded from the area...)
So I repeat fot those who got distracted by the war/clan/political issues :
There is simply no way for us to get the recipes besides buying the blueprints.
That makes a chance to get the recipe at about 18-20 mils... and it's a small chance. Then you get the 60% craft...
Now hear me we all 3 have all the mats for our A sets. That represents roughly 50 circlet parts and a few mils of mats. Very few mils. In fact wasn't it for the recipes we could craft a Majestic circlet for 6 to 8 mils grosso modo.
But the market price is far from that as you know it all. And you know why from the paragraph above.
A grade is not high end. It's common gear. It should be at least for the sake of balance ! More. It's NEEDED. As in NECESSARY.
You just can't hope to survive or compete if you don't have the edge it gives you compared to B grade, even heavily oed.
The reason follows.
There is a more important downside to have A grade armor accessories so rare. A huge one.
It's dangeroulsy widening the gap between normal and hardcore players.
Besides fishing, C4 is all for the high end players. The 76+ can enchant skills, get S gear, Hero skills, newer grounds with high end mobs to XP faster...... blah blah.... a load of crap that just excludes normal players in their 60s from ever dreaming to compete.
And as a counterpart... Average 60+ Joe got a nerf in getting his A grade set complete.
It was already a dream for ppl 65+ to survive to 75 guys.
Now it takes a 76 to survive a 76. Period.
Top players stronger ... average players nerfed...
The gap is widening. At some point if the gap becomes too big, ppl will stop trying to catch up. It's not a doom prediction. It's reasoning.
Now go figure.
Who the hell allowed the Balance Guy to go on a retirement plan... AND NOT be replaced.
Fix ToI quest plz
(and I didn't even talk about Top Necros...)
(and add 60+ newbie buffs too...)
(and add 60+ small groups hunting ground too...)
Work for us... Oh'for'sake !
yeah no kidding...
i get one ToI group a week, about a 2 hour session.
and i have been getting one since before december... i have 2,3,7,8,9,10
and 6 out of the 7 pages for one book and 4 out of for the other one...
and thats it. I'm no where close to getting the blueprint set, and the other one is just really starting to annoy me. something really needs to be changed with this quest, cause like the last guy said, i'm soon going to stop trying to upgrade. and when i do that...i'm pretty much quit at that point. cause its hard enough trying to compete against higher lvls in Agrade (and by hard enough, i mean, its becomming more difficult to stay alive for more than 30seconds)
just make the drop for the quest item more, so that we mid 60's will have a much better chance at having Agrade before our 70's. cause in the 70's if you don't ahve Agrade armor/weapon/jewles, you can kiss PvP goodbye
Half a joke but sometimes I can't help to think that this game was _designed_ with farming in mind and that the parallel adena market's creation was intentional.
What I mean is that we see in other games many ways to prevent the emergence of such a market.. none of which exist in here.
Too many coincidences often form patterns.
Well, i seldom post anywhere but i saw this thread, and it got my atention, in c3 i used to hunt exclusively in ToI to get the Blue Prints. Given the fact that I was in a trio the drop rate was low on the paps (but not unbearable), even so, we never got the odd ones. When we finally had the sets and turned it in, we usually got mats (we have turned in a total of 7 times). Eventually we gave up since the people in A grade got their helmets by other means. But now again the clan has a bunch of A graders in need of helmets. I must have over 20 blue prints on every kind but of the rare ones.
We all know the problem so far. The quest is defective. We know that. Now BigHands was in the right track offering solutions. (and i would love a GM comment on them). If anyone has another idea? I think the best choices are (stealing the ideas from BigHands)
1) Make all the Blue Prints have the same drop rate
OR
2) Make the quest give a recipe all the time (like the robe one in AL).
Thanks Exotika
Here's a few other possible solutions:
- I'd really like to see them add more mobs that drop the Papyrus'. Add some field mobs in there, so that people can solo it. Maybe add more mobs on the same floors in TOI to the list.
- Make it so that you get to choose the type of recipe you want. (Helm, Boot, or Glove) This would even out the prices for all 3 pieces quite nicely, and would still leave a place for the people working the quest for cash, they would then have the option of choosing the item in greatest demand.
- If you are going to leave it totally random as to the type of recipe, why not add in a small possiblity of recieving the full item. I don't think it would cause any major imbalance if you had a .5% chance of getting a full helm. :)
If you are going to leave it totally random as to the type of recipe, why not add in a small possiblity of recieving the full item. I don't think it would cause any major imbalance if you had a .5% chance of getting a full helm. :)
What and make people want to hunt in TOI again? Pfft.
Thanks Exotika
Here's a few other possible solutions:
- I'd really like to see them add more mobs that drop the Papyrus'. Add some field mobs in there, so that people can solo it. Maybe add more mobs on the same floors in TOI to the list.
Don't forget that they have a load issue in ToI.
More mobs and more peeps means more load.
And ToI zone is hard enough to load. I know some modem players (ty to their cable corp for NOT providing DSL...) who can hardly make it now.
They should have divided ToI as CT is.
** also about the other A quest.... the first member of our trio in GC got his mysterious book to activate part two yesterday.
After more than 70% of his level 60 spent in GC... so now he is allowed the random chance to get the random
doodles err I mean ...book parts to get a chance to get a 60% rcp if he ever gets to find a group in there that goes deep enough to meet Lesser Giants... it's basically as bad....
Glad to be able to trade views on such topics with you again. ;)
And for those who would like a slice of irony on their cheese here's one.
This topic makes me think about a famous comic on penny-arcade where Dungeons&Dragons staff is creating new quests.
(I also liked a lot the one with manager saying to (say jim and pete) 'ok, now D&D is out what did we have on checklist... Dungeons.. K... Jim do we have dungeons ? Jim: Yes we do. K now the dragons....
No, don't tell me you forgot dragons ! Jim: I thought it was Pete doing them... Pete: wasn't it you ?)
But back to the quest designing comic... Too bad I can't link it..
You all heard people complaining about some companies designing quests whose content can be reduced to "kill 500 monsters, port everywhere, come back". Yeah as you'll see some companies design such quests. For difficult ones they add a random factor....
So our D&D team in the PA comic is designing a quest.... and they absolutely want better and bigger quests than WoW so they find the solution ! "Let's make them kill 1000 monsters" say Pete.
But No! WoW already did that...
"K so let's have them kill 2000 monsters then".
I havent gotten a single BP yet :( Spent a few days in ToI, so I decided just to play the market some more and buy the **** helmet straight from a sell shop >.< Could use 140mil better than that tho, if the quest was actually working...
Glad to be able to trade views on such topics with you again. ;)
And for those who would like a slice of irony on their cheese here's one.
This topic makes me think about a famous comic on penny-arcade where Dungeons&Dragons staff is creating new quests.
(I also liked a lot the one with manager saying to (say jim and pete) 'ok, now D&D is out what did we have on checklist... Dungeons.. K... Jim do we have dungeons ? Jim: Yes we do. K now the dragons....
No, don't tell me you forgot dragons ! Jim: I thought it was Pete doing them... Pete: wasn't it you ?)
But back to the quest designing comic... Too bad I can't link it..
You all heard people complaining about some companies designing quests whose content can be reduced to "kill 500 monsters, port everywhere, come back". Yeah as you'll see some companies design such quests. For difficult ones they add a random factor....
So our D&D team in the PA comic is designing a quest.... and they absolutely want better and bigger quests than WoW so they find the solution ! "Let's make them kill 1000 monsters" say Pete.
But No! WoW already did that...
"K so let's have them kill 2000 monsters then".
I forgot to say... every resnemblance with another MMO company woudl be purely non intentional :-p
Power to the creative minds...
Basically I gave up on farming the BPs. Went to lvl 9 and got a rare lvl 5 BP on my first try. Went to lvl 8 and got nothing the entire time I was there. So now if I do go with a group, I will not go below lvl 9. Wont waste my time. Only reason I would go to TOI is for BPs and NOT levels.
Finally got my full TOI BPs. Not from farming but thru the market extortion system. I was told by everyone on how difficult it is to "actually" get the NM Helm recipe. The person who sold me the BP said he failed 3 times to get the NM helm recipe. (says how often he "farms" although he claims he isnt really "farming")
Once you do get the NM Helm recipe - good luck on finding a crafter online actually working that character. The crafter has a 60% recipe in his book and you have a 60% recipe to use to make the NM Helm. Pretty slim chances.
I bring this all up because I want everyone to realize how difficult it is to make this item. The time you spend gathering BPs. Time spent finding a crafter. Time spent gathering materials. THEN.....when your standing there getting ready to hit "CREATE"......your process 'FAILS". The casual gamer can become extremely iritated over this.
I have 60 mil offers alone for the NM Helm recipe before I actually used it. The crafter and those who actually saw me spend half a day looking for the crafter, all thought I was going to fail. My friend on teamspeak couldnt believe I got the recipe my first try. The guy who sold BP to me couldnt believe I got the recipe my first try.
The sad thing is the reaction from everyone I came in contact with over this NM Helm. Even players wanting to buy my NM Helm before it was even created. Good or bad, I do not think this is good for the game. I feel good now that its over. Or is it? Can I expect everything after this to be that difficult?
Well, i dont think the toi quest is broken, it works just as it should: Trap fools into toi
U can get a armor from a easier quest or just buy it, boots and gloves r normaly pretty cheap, just the helms suck. Helms r suppost to be droped from raids, not gained through a quest. If u dont raid, buy em on the market. If u dont have money, do the money quests. The perfect way to finance a armor is the a weapon quest. Recipes r very easy to get for the weapons, keyparts come from a quest but playin bingo is still better than toi. Craft the weapons (belive on ur luck with that ^^) and sell em so that u can buy the helms :) (thats the way i got my Tallum Helm, but with the new weapon prices it will take longer now)
If they are supposed to be from raid bosses, then why is this quest the ONLY WAY to get helm recipes? hmm? Raid boss drops suck, btw if you haven't heard.
helms like DC helm only drop from antharas and valk is c4 so raids arent going to get u helms either
Why do i see people with 30 - 40 weapon reciepes would of it been smarter to make all jewelery and armour reciepes drop and keep weapons more expensive?
For real, my post was kind of truth, kind of sarcasm and kind of 'workaround'. Looking at [censored] u can see where to get a armor beside a quest and what chances and u know who gets them.
And for pointing on the workaround, do the weapon and jewelquests if u want a armor.
edit: uhm [censored] was the name of a fanpage that shows drops and let u manage ur warehouses, dunno why its censored.
Ya, im more the quiet one. I often feel as i have to post something, but than i dont, im more into constuctive ^_^ (well, most times a good answer is allready given, we repeat things)
The regdate is the time i firstly made it into the board. Found it boring and just visited from time to time. I got more into it with C4 for infos and such stuff.
btw i think i know why its censored, but to be honest, if someone wants to buy adena, he will know where. Also everyone knows the page, so why the censorship? If anyone needs me, im out to search the lost free speech...
Actually with all the pains ncsoft has with bots, they really dont need you to encourage others to buy adena, which is illegal, and low. So those that know it, good for them; those who dont: better for us.
Actually with all the pains ncsoft has with bots, they really dont need you to encourage others to buy adena, which is illegal, and low. So those that know it, good for them; those who dont: better for us.
Lol you win second place in hypocrisy contest.
I don't think would be cheaters need anyone to tell them how to google "Lineage2 adena" ...
And he was not encouraging anyone. Nor am I.
It's just like the fuss we see about some games who are con****ed for having lightly sexually oriented content while they are hyper violent and are not criticised for it... (read GTA)
The GC Quest is also brutal, but every person in A grade only needs 1 armor set. The majority of them are one piece, but a few people do need the tops and bottoms. If you look around you cna find out which set you need to turn in to get that recipe.
While the GC quest is rough, it pales in comparison to the TOI one.
I'd like to see them add field mobs to the GC quest as well.
This thread has turned to discussions about board censorship and User Agreement violations, so I am closing it now. The feedback about the Legacy of Insolence quest has been passed on to the team. Thanks!