Chronicle 5 Goals Presentation
Presenter: NC Soft Studio E&G Head of Production - Han Jaehyuk
* Greater Support for Soloing
According to (Korean) player demand, various game elements will be added to allow for easier soloing with less downtime.
* Additions to Clan System
Recognizing that clan-based politics is one of Lineage2's greatest attractions, much more will be added to clan functionality. Some of these include:
o Clan Skills
o Clan Items
o Clan Ranks: Count, Baron, Knight etc.
This clan rank system will be a part of a greater hierarchy of Lord/Lady ,King/Queen, Emperor/Empress and this will form the basis of territorial wars and national wars which will be added in the future.
* New Territory
o The space between Dwarf town and Orc town will be filled, finishing the Elmore lands. http://gamecul.com/l2day/img/park/0603/politic_2169_03.jpg
o A new dungeon for the highest level players will be added
o Conquer-type Raids added. These raids will require you to fight subservient mobs in order to see the raid boss. (note: isn't this 4 sepulchers?)
o New mobs with increased AI
* Greater Balance between classes
Elimination of PvP superclass. The classes will be counterbalanced in a RockPaperScissor way. Certain classes will be stronger against some classes over others. (note: necros)
* Raid Boss Printessa
The main Raid Boss of C5. Printessa is the illfated prince of the empire. His main weapon is a giant organ. Players will have to determine the proper tactics based on the music he plays. (note: lol) http://gamecul.com/l2day/img/park/0603/politic_2169_04.jpg
Chronicle 5 Q&A
* Q: How will the bot problem be solved
A: Bots are continuously being dealt with already. We compile a banlist every few weeks. Better alert methods of sensing 3rd program use is being looked into.
* Q: Any plans to change the clan war system?
A: Greater protection for Clans lvl3 and under. Higher clan levels (past lvl5) will be introduced in C5 and rewards will be added to clan wars.
* Q: Plans to fix Olympiad explot issues?
A: There will be a patch soon to fix the various exploits.
* Q: Bot/Farmer raid parties are a huge issue, especially for quest raid bosses. What are your plans for this?
A: Other than the continued effort to clean out bots, raid mobs will be smarter and harder to take down using bots. (note: I don't believe)
* Q: Too many PKers running around thanks to Sin Eater. Comments?
A: We don't think this is a serious issue but we'll look into it.
* Q: Gatehopping / peacezone hopping issues, specifically the north bridge in Giran. Comments?
A: We've been thinking of ways to stop gatehopping but we haven't come up with anything. We'll continue to investigate.
* Q: Any changes to the rare boss jewllery stats? I.E. B Grade Ant Queen gives +2 Accuracy Jewellery, wheras the A Grade Core ring gives +1 accuracy.
A: No changes are planned. New rare item will be added with the new raid boss.
* Q: Various difficulties in raiding, such as sharing chat and ninjalooters. What's being done?
A: We're gonna make it so the raid channel is easier to use, and make drops exclusive to those in the raid channel.
* Q: The higher level soul crystals are too hard to get. Comments?
A: We'll make them easier to get over time.
* Q: Any plans on a vendor system that lets you sell items offline?
A: Giran will probably explode if we tried to do this -_-. We've looked at an auction system but we can't ignore the plus sides of player-to-player vending and its effect on economics. No changes planned in this area atm.
* Q: Any news on combining the less populated servers?
A: We've done polls on this subject and the result was inconclusive. There's too many issues surrounding castle and clanhall ownership etc. and the players couldn't come to an agreement so the idea's been abandoned. (note: this is applicable to korean servers only)
NOTE: These are only the 1st details that are filtering through, NC Korea are doing several releases of info at diffrent locations. This is the 1st meeting or their tour.
* Raid Boss Printessa
The main Raid Boss of C5. Printessa is the illfated prince of the empire. His main weapon is a giant organ. Players will have to determine the proper tactics based on the music he plays. (note: lol) http://gamecul.com/l2day/img/park/0603/politic_2169_04.jpg
But but... If the new landmass is going to be just that, that isn't finishing the Elmore. :(
Nothing big revealed yet. But I hope this time they would actually give LESS than level 75 ppl new skills as well. I bet the new skills are going to be only @ levels 79-80. Would be a refreshing change to get some new skills ie. at level 40'ish.
And I seriously hope they wouldn't put the same skill again on ie. to all the dagger classes. I'd like to see the gap widen up to make each class more unique. As it now stands, there's too little variation.
* Q: Gatehopping / peacezone hopping issues, specifically the north bridge in Giran. Comments?
A: We've been thinking of ways to stop gatehopping but we haven't come up with anything. We'll continue to investigate.
why dont they just make it possible for chars in attack-mode to be hit in town? if they then gatehop they are no longer safe by hopping back in.... i mean if they can stop you from summoning in that mode why not alter it slightly to accomodate this gatehopping problem?
* Q: Too many PKers running around thanks to Sin Eater. Comments?
A: We don't think this is a serious issue but we'll look into it.
this a dumb Q, i would stop any war as soon as they remove the sin eater. simply because oneside war makes you go red, imagen this would undermine the entire effort of making this game more pvp-orientated for the higher levels
LoL at the answers... I especially like "We have absolutely no clue how to fix this problem... which problem anyway? Would you like a new S grade armor istead?" ^^
But if they'd make "balance" the main addition of C5... after 3 years that is a great step forward for the game. :P I'm sooo looking forward to all the crying necros when they annot pwn anymore.
As a composer I like the idea. Especially because they made it clear that it was a musical instruement. Have to keep to the rating of the game ya know :)
don't they mean we don't know and probably won't change, but look, we have this new shiny S grade armor to forget all about those problems!
more ways to solo eh? whats wrong with the healer community of korea, don't they ever whine, or are all healers 2boxes there as well. :/
please keep in mind that C5 isnt finished yet, and they have taken their inupt from a korean fanbase so far. they have yet to take in the NA fanbase material and suggestions, so lets all try to be positive and suggest good ways to make the game enjoyable.
"we'll look into it" simply means they hadnt yet heard that suggestion or comment and will work on a way to implement/change it when C5 is released.
keep in mind C5 isnt out yet, nor is it by any means finished.
surly people are rarely listened to anyway. how often is [the uncle nobody talks to because he is ostracised] invited to join a reunion? rarely if ever because he is surly. and surly for it.
so we need valuable suggestions with positive effects. negativity will get us nowhere.
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on a lighter "note" they gave us chrono weapons what make noises, then they made pumpkins that only can be broken by specific chrono weapons, now they are making mobs that play organs ....
i wonder what the trend will need to be in order to kill this RB? maybe all need to take him with a different chrono weapon to counteract the music :O after all, the chrono cithara is shaped like a violin... somewhat...
Lol some part of me no matter how great hellroze is makes me think this is a bit of a joke, it just doesnt feel right to me, possible hoax...
Especially this bit:
Greater Balance between classes
Elimination of PvP superclass. The classes will be counterbalanced in a RockPaperScissor way. Certain classes will be stronger against some classes over others. (note: necros)
* Greater Balance between classes
Elimination of PvP superclass. The classes will be counterbalanced in a RockPaperScissor way. Certain classes will be stronger against some classes over others. (note: necros)
There goes the neighborhood :(
That's such a bad idea that I'd suspect a hoax, but somehow I don't think we'll be so lucky.
Lol some part of me no matter how great hellroze is makes me think this is a bit of a joke, it just doesnt feel right to me, possible hoax...
Especially this bit:
Greater Balance between classes
Elimination of PvP superclass. The classes will be counterbalanced in a RockPaperScissor way. Certain classes will be stronger against some classes over others. (note: necros)
I would love however to be proved wrong.
to me that either means that Mellee will be strong as heck, or magic will be weak as ****.
for the rock-paper-scissors approach one must look at it almost literally. rock= melee, paper=magic, scissors=daggers.
as to what this implies, melee will beat daggers.
magic will still beat melee.
but daggers will pwn magic.
now this doesnt necessarily have to be the case. because magic is paper (for this example), anything can beat paper. its paper afterall.
likewise some scissors i own can chip away at rocks. they are funny shaped scissors, but they still cut paper.
bottom line: PVP is PVP, either u pwn or u are pwnt.
Rock = Melee
Paper = Mage
Sciz = Archer
But still i mean April 1st is on-coming, perhaps this was posted early because it would be obviously a hoax if it came out on the day.
Does this mean my Warsmith will get some PvP skills? Even some PvE skills would be a start.
"Lots of HP" is the only skill we really have, and we're still 2-3shot for any mage. With CP postions, we can hit you all day and never even get through a mages CP :(
Does this mean my Warsmith will get some PvP skills? Even some PvE skills would be a start.
"Lots of HP" is the only skill we really have, and we're still 2-3shot for any mage. With CP postions, we can hit you all day and never even get through a mages CP :(
Lol, you people hear "balance" in a sentence and think it is going to be sooo much different. This just means groups (unless some type of group becomes most popular) will be balanced. Still 1v1 is like playing paperRockScissors. Meaning it should still be easy to know who is going to win before the fight starts (not taking into effect ganks/first hits/ etc. etc.).
Oh and in GW, where balanced classes are supposed to reign? They still had favorites, and exploit builds. Or spike builds, similar to an Archer/DD team here, all focus fire on the same target, same time. Watch them drop.
C5-I foresee even more whining about how "my class can't pwn all the other classes, FIX IT!!"
Correct, and the way the questions were answered sounded as if a child had answered them.
Giran will probably explode if we tried to do this -_-.
Was this paraphrased?
I don't really trust the rock-paper-scissors change. What about classes that don't fit the criteria for anything? Summoners and orc mages are both magic and melee, and can wield bows and daggers. Will those classes be overpowered or underpowered? Until I can get some better answers from these questions, I'm going to be skeptical.
* Q: How will the bot problem be solved
A: Bots are continuously being dealt with already. We compile a banlist every few weeks. Better alert methods of sensing 3rd program use is being looked into.
As most of us know this is ... to put it bluntly...not good enough.
To ban an account on someone who makes his living from farming, will in just about all ocations not work. What will happen is :
1: account banned .
2: cancell accounts.
3: make new accounts.
4: start over again.
I will probably get flamed for saying this, but right now I really dont cear about that since I cant even do my subclass raid boss since it is camped by farmers.
One thing NCSoft could do to prevent farmers haveing to much power, influencing the economy on a server is to implement the "oh so famouse" auction house. I know that this has been talked about on some forums before, but again I do feel that it should be discussed.
For the Number 1 reason it will reduce the number of players ingame. (Maybe.. just maybe... will I be able to get to the wearhouse in Giran without being stuck in the stairs. I know I could go to the magic shop but point still valid for those who play for the first time.)
For the number 2 reason it will make the "item" price drop.
(I will however like to point out that the prices for Items have dropped from c3 to c4.)
If you want it Sold ASAP you have to have your Price lower then what the others suppliers of same item have, or you can Over Enchant and get more for your item.
(I would pay more for +4 then a +3)
You can, if you want to, sell Stacked items. For instance you can sell 10 Animal skins or 100 animal skins.
To use the WoW system as a base :
Auction house takes certain % of selling value from sellers pocket.
If said item is not sold. Item is returned to the owner after certain period of time. But the Auction Fee is not returned.
Alot of People will maybe say What the [insert profanity here] is this guy thinking. But here is my Reasoning.
Selling Soul Bow : 100m
Auction house take : 10m
Profit : 90m
The point here is that you Have to have 10m to actually sell your item... Considering it Advertisments costs.
A farmer farms (shock) items and adena that he in turn sells on either E-bay or whoever else is selling adena.
Now... If they For instance get 1 USD for ever 5m they make.
The point of stopping a farmer is to make it harder for him to GET that 5m. If he/she has to work all hours of the day to make 5m then they will sooner or later disappear by themself, because the time put in will not be worth the payoff.
One of the key things to to point out here to NCSoft is this.
If there is 1 or 2 accounts connecting from the same IP, then "hey hey hey... How you doing?"
If there is 8 or 9 accounts connecting from the same IP, then
"Ok... let's check this out!"
Actually, you should be proud of yourselfs because you have made a game where most of the petitions are ignored, GM's are choosen from ingame players and people are actually getting more accounts to actually afford stuff. I guess Im just a newbie since I am just running 2 accounts at the moment.
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Im not calling all [xxxxxxxx] farmers.
But most Farmers are [xxxxxxxx]
1v1 is like playing paperRockScissors. Meaning it should still be easy to know who is going to win before the fight starts
If they seriously make a rock-paper-scissors PvP balance, I think all that will happen is BSoE will be used in over 90% of situations.
Rock vs. Paper -> Rock BSoE or sure to lose
Rock vs. Scissors -> Scissors BSoE or sure to lose
Rock vs. Rock -> Might PvP once in a while.
I don't see how this is a good thing, but hey, whatever. No use complaining, if I don't like it nobody's making me stay.
I agree, a "for sure" rock paper sisscors will be idiodic for 1v1. And thus I predict more whining, but down different avenues. Could be refreshing to hear "Nerf Melee" though. I don't understand how people are getting hyped over this kind of balance, unless they don't read any further than "balance".
imo... .gate hopping.. the problem would be solved if one leaves a safe zone.. emediately attacks a player and re-enters safe zone, the safe zone effect doesn't get applied until the "combat Status" has wore off. Similare to that if you tried to exit the game right after hitting someone, it won't work, you have to wait (5 seconds?) before you can log.
If this (5 seconds?) is applied to a gate hopper, that should be suficient time to take him out even if your not in the safe zone.
Also making it so that people within the safe zone cannot attack him or you if you enter the safe zone after him.
So imo, basically, if you turn purple, shortly after stepping out of the safe zone, you are game for 5 seconds by any player out of the safe zone.
imo... .gate hopping.. the problem would be solved if one leaves a safe zone.. emediately attacks a player and re-enters safe zone, the safe zone effect doesn't get applied until the "combat Status" has wore off.
Here's a good solution for it... It's funny if they didn't think of this on Korea. NCNA should tell this suggestion to the Korea dev-team if they can't figure it out over there. :confused:
castle v castle wars sound interesting. bring on aden v elmore. gotta make these carebears pvp somehow.
id like to see an Elf war in some future chronical.
imo... .gate hopping.. the problem would be solved if one leaves a safe zone.. emediately attacks a player and re-enters safe zone, the safe zone effect doesn't get applied until the "combat Status" has wore off.
Here's a good solution for it... It's funny if they didn't think of this on Korea. NCNA should tell this suggestion to the Korea dev-team if they can't figure it out over there. :confused:
it's not a good solution, because it would make range completely overpowered in gatewars.
Situation A
melee outside gate
someone from inside the gate hits the melee outside, he runs back in, the melee can't hit him because he's out of range and will enter the town and unable to attack if he follows.
Situation B
archer outside gate
someone from inside attacks archer then runs back inside, this player will have to wait or run out of 900 range of the gate to be safe as the archer can keep hitting him.
And because you can attack NPC's, I believe the only way to do this is to make red's and purples attackable in town, but I'm sure theres other flaws with this as well.
Whats wrong with the rock paper scissors aspect? The way I see it is (if it's successful) we'll no longer have archer gank squads and a good pvp party will consist of a tank, glad or destroyer, a dagger, archer, nuker or summoner, healer, prophet, bd + sws or something along those lines. It would be much more fun to watch or play in a fight like that than sws bd healer prophet and 5 archers pecking away at each other.
Hell any rock paper scissors crap is better than nukers > all, but I guess only nukers would complain about it. Personally I can see a vary minor problem but a major fix so I'm all for it.
Whats wrong with the rock paper scissors aspect? The way I see it is (if it's successful) we'll no longer have archer gank squads and a good pvp party will consist of a tank, glad or destroyer, a dagger, archer, nuker or summoner, healer, prophet, bd + sws or something along those lines. It would be much more fun to watch or play in a fight like that than sws bd healer prophet and 5 archers pecking away at each other.
Hell any rock paper scissors crap is better than nukers > all, but I guess only nukers would complain about it. Personally I can see a vary minor problem but a major fix so I'm all for it.
Nukers are not > all. Nukers and archers are about even.
It is ranged is > melee
And mostly due to the ability to "kite".
Whats wrong with the rock paper scissors aspect? The way I see it is (if it's successful) we'll no longer have archer gank squads and a good pvp party will consist of a tank, glad or destroyer, a dagger, archer, nuker or summoner, healer, prophet, bd + sws or something along those lines. It would be much more fun to watch or play in a fight like that than sws bd healer prophet and 5 archers pecking away at each other.
Hell any rock paper scissors crap is better than nukers > all, but I guess only nukers would complain about it. Personally I can see a vary minor problem but a major fix so I'm all for it.
Nukers are not > all. Nukers and archers are about even.
It is ranged is > melee
And mostly due to the ability to "kite".
Maybe they are even in group pvp but not 1 vs 1 so still it's nukers > all however that is almost irrelevant to the point I was making anyway which is what's wrong with game balance and if you don't like rock paper scissors then what do you suggest? I see countless amounts of threads that say this game is all about group pvp blah blah etc so why not have groups of mixed classes...
All I am saying is that this solves nothing for 1v1, and the whining will continue, if not get bigger. I would suggest actual skill based pvp, instead of who brought "papers" to fight "rocks". But I suppose that is and always will be too much to ask. And I have made my peace with that.
I also pointed out that even in games designed specifically on balanced group play, there still becomes FOTM grouping styles.
i dont believe anyone said the whining would end because balance would be restored.
whining will always exist because if it can be complained about, it will be.
true, the whining will increase. true, it solves nothing for 1v1. BUT! what it does encourage is group pvp. encourage!
like in sieges!
like in gank squads!
but very rarely while pvp is balanced will one ganks squad outgank another ganksquad everytime. the whole idea of balanced pvp with 3 types of play style (melee archer mage) is 33/33/33 win capability.
so its still unbalanced, but its a fair unbalance.
now lets stop the discussion of balance because it wont get anywhere, instead lets focus on other parts of what C5 *could* *possibly* bring us.
like this new organ weapon, and how can i get one of my own?
* Greater Balance between classes
Elimination of PvP superclass. The classes will be counterbalanced in a RockPaperScissor way. Certain classes will be stronger against some classes over others. (note: necros)
IF it's done right, it culd FINALY add strategy and fun to PvP, specialy if your good at building up well balanced groups, and not just Nukers VS everything else.
It is ranged is > melee
And mostly due to the ability to "kite".
And the solution they supposedly came up with is to intentionally make it so skill is no longer even intended to be a deciding factor in PvP? Was the idea to give melee an ability to catch and kill ranged foes just too complicated? :)
The current system that people hate so much:
Are you a melee against ranged? You lose.
Are you a ranged against melee? You win!
The proposed solution:
Are you a rock against paper? You lose.
Are you a rock against scissors? You win!
Either way, you didn't win by your own merit, you won because of your class decision. This so-called "solution" is just as bad as the current melee vs ranged issue, which is basically a smaller-scale version of the same terrible idea--class choice being the deciding factor in PvP.
That's why I'm hoping it's a hoax, because if they actually do this, it's going to make PvP incredibly lame...and frankly not worth participating in.
L2 is a strategic teamwork game, I'm yet to meet someone boasting about which skills they used during a PvP especially since auto-ss came out. Which merit can you win by currently?
The things you're worried about happening are already there, you probably just not playing one of the suffering classes.
BTW I'm doing my dynamite class change should I go C-4 ?
L2 is a strategic teamwork game, I'm yet to meet someone boasting about which skills they used during a PvP especially since auto-ss came out. Which merit can you win by currently?
The things you're worried about happening are already there, you probably just not playing one of the suffering classes.
BTW I'm doing my dynamite class change should I go C-4 ?
L2 is a strategic teamwork game, I'm yet to meet someone boasting about which skills they used during a PvP especially since auto-ss came out. Which merit can you win by currently?
If you haven't, you haven't been listening.
Me? When I win, it tends to be due to things like altering strategies to fit the class I'm fighting, responding faster to the situation, etc.
When there is one group of classes you are intended to beat, there will be one best method of beating them. Thus, all Rock will do X to beat Scissors. All Paper will do Y to beat Rock. All Scissors will do Z to beat Paper.
Don't delude yourself into believing that group PvP will be improved. Want to know what group PvP is going to be like, in a rock-paper-scissors world?
Rocks do X to beat the opponent's Scissors.
Papers do Y to beat the opponent's Rocks.
Scissors do Z to beat the opponent's Papers.
The winner? Not the most skilled. Not the most prepared. The group that, by chance, has more of the one-up class than the other.
A group of 2 Rock, 3 Paper, 1 Scissors fights a group of 3 Rock, 1 Paper, 2 Scissors. Before the first blow is struck, you know who is going to win. Every time. Can you seriously call that good MMO design?
Raise the numbers to groups of 9, groups of 20, groups of 50...it won't matter. The principle remains the same. The flaw is still there.
The things you're worried about happening are already there, you probably just not playing one of the suffering classes.
My highest-level character is designed to be a melee class. I still think it's a stupid idea. Don't attempt to dismiss my opinions ad-hominem, it's a weak and annoying argumentative tactic.
I would rather see a real solution to the real problem. This sounds more like they've been listening to a swarm of players who want change and haven't stopped to think "will it really get better?"
rockpaperscissors system doesn't mean rock will always beat scissors. It's just theres more of a probability. It's better than the system we have now because there are some classes that simply don't get beat. And there are certain classes that simply can't win (ie healers).
If they were to balance in this way it's going to completely revamp the PvP system in place and can be very good or very bad. In all MMORPG's there is an element of where gear and class can help you win. If you don't like it just go play a FPS.
L2 is a strategic teamwork game, I'm yet to meet someone boasting about which skills they used during a PvP especially since auto-ss came out. Which merit can you win by currently?
If you haven't, you haven't been listening.
Me? When I win, it tends to be due to things like altering strategies to fit the class I'm fighting, responding faster to the situation, etc.
When there is one group of classes you are intended to beat, there will be one best method of beating them. Thus, all Rock will do X to beat Scissors. All Paper will do Y to beat Rock. All Scissors will do Z to beat Paper.
Don't delude yourself into believing that group PvP will be improved. Want to know what group PvP is going to be like, in a rock-paper-scissors world?
Rocks do X to beat the opponent's Scissors.
Papers do Y to beat the opponent's Rocks.
Scissors do Z to beat the opponent's Papers.
The winner? Not the most skilled. Not the most prepared. The group that, by chance, has more of the one-up class than the other.
A group of 2 Rock, 3 Paper, 1 Scissors fights a group of 3 Rock, 1 Paper, 2 Scissors. Before the first blow is struck, you know who is going to win. Every time. Can you seriously call that good MMO design?
Raise the numbers to groups of 9, groups of 20, groups of 50...it won't matter. The principle remains the same. The flaw is still there.
The things you're worried about happening are already there, you probably just not playing one of the suffering classes.
My highest-level character is designed to be a melee class. I still think it's a stupid idea. Don't attempt to dismiss my opinions ad-hominem, it's a weak and annoying argumentative tactic.
I would rather see a real solution to the real problem. This sounds more like they've been listening to a swarm of players who want change and haven't stopped to think "will it really get better?"
Man you can do show all the statistics you like but this isn't Mortal Kombat where you press the right buttons and you win the fight with combo's and fatalities it's about tweaking your character (like almost all RPG's) and having the most organised clan / alliance.
Maybe there isn't a real solution to this problem, I sure can't think of one and you have failed to post any ideas thus far.
Most people will agree that the current PvP system needs a change and even if it's trial and error with an idea that could possibly have a few downsides, I don't see how it could get any worse than it is now, especially since the current system already works this way yet at the moment we have paper and scissors and no rock because melee is so neglected in PvP.
All this aside the statement said 'Removal of PvP superclasses' which sounds pretty **** fair to me.
**** whiners. You wanted balance, so they came up with a solution. I didnt see you guys come up with something everyone agreed with? The Rock/Paper/Scissors, like someone said already exists in game but to a lesser extant. Seems they are making those "lines" more distinct. Sounds ok to me. If all classes can be "balanced" this way it will involve strategy to form balanced groups for PvP, which I might add IS what this game is about. GROUP PvP, not single PvP.
At least they ARE trying to revisit this issue and change the unbalance that exists right now between range vs. melee. If you want them to take you seriously then instead of crying like babies all the time, maybe you should visit the Game Suggestions forum and start suggesting?
It seems like a bunch of fricken 5 year olds always complaining that they didnt something, even when it was handed to them on a silver platter.
All I am saying is that this solves nothing for 1v1, and the whining will continue, if not get bigger. I would suggest actual skill based pvp, instead of who brought "papers" to fight "rocks". But I suppose that is and always will be too much to ask. And I have made my peace with that.
I also pointed out that even in games designed specifically on balanced group play, there still becomes FOTM grouping styles.
Actual skill?
So you mean mages should have to memorize spells and type the incantations...
Or archers should have to physically aim their arrows...
Or summoners should have to spend time and effort training a single pet?
Skill? What skill is there when targetting/damage is all automated? This game is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. It is not skill based. You want a game of skill? Come play some hockey.
This is a game of knowledge/experience, class, and lag atm.
rockpaperscissors system doesn't mean rock will always beat scissors. It's just theres more of a probability. It's better than the system we have now because there are some classes that simply don't get beat. And there are certain classes that simply can't win (ie healers).
Depending on the design, if they're really careful about it, yes. I hope you're right.
Man you can do show all the statistics you like but
...but you'll change the subject and talk about a different problem entirely before you'd actually address what I said. Smooth move.
Maybe there isn't a real solution to this problem, I sure can't think of one and you have failed to post any ideas thus far.
Liar. Z0idberg, I posted one on this page. In case you forgot, one of the first things I said was "give melee an ability to catch and kill ranged foes"...which means that ranged and melee are on even footing, which solves the range problem without an elaborate system.
"Keep it simple, stupid" is a great design rule...one that hasn't even been tried yet, which isn't exactly good design.
All this aside the statement said 'Removal of PvP superclasses' which sounds pretty **** fair to me.
All I am saying is that this solves nothing for 1v1, and the whining will continue, if not get bigger. I would suggest actual skill based pvp, instead of who brought "papers" to fight "rocks". But I suppose that is and always will be too much to ask. And I have made my peace with that.
I also pointed out that even in games designed specifically on balanced group play, there still becomes FOTM grouping styles.
Actual skill?
So you mean mages should have to memorize spells and type the incantations...
Or archers should have to physically aim their arrows...
Or summoners should have to spend time and effort training a single pet?
Skill? What skill is there when targetting/damage is all automated? This game is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. It is not skill based. You want a game of skill? Come play some hockey.
This is a game of knowledge/experience, class, and lag atm.
Is not knowing ones class well enough to react to different situations skill? Is not using the right skill or move or spell at the right time to win, skill? In the words of forum trolls everywhere "KKTHXBYE"
Oh... I thought they were going to bring up a seperate window with two hands in it and the best 2 out of 3 wins of the game "Rocks paper scissors" gets a pvp point.
On a more serious note, the game is already like that- you just have to have strategy. Yes, even necro's are an easy kill when you play your own classes right though I will always agree that melee's need help BIG time. Tanks need more mdef or mdef to mean more. Other than that they're good.
If we're looking at purely 1v1
Tanks maim archers (critical SA bleed helps archers with this)
Archers maim Nukers (sleep/cancel abilities help nukers)
Nukers maim Tanks (HP/CP helps tanks survive for more than 3-4 shots but really has nothing to counter attack with)
Now, surprise is everything... usually if the archer doesn't see it coming a nuker will beat the hell out of an archer. Most people didn't reroll as a mage/archer because of the pvp side, but because the combination of impossibility to level solo in combination with the 'enhanced AI' making tanks about worthless in groups.
This new pvp balance will be better than :
offparty buffers , sws bd warlock bishop and 5 archers.
or
offparty buffers , sws bd es bishop 5 nukers.
If you say that current system is good then i will say [offensive content] yourself .
This new pvp balance will be better than :
offparty buffers , sws bd warlock bishop and 5 archers.
or
offparty buffers , sws bd es bishop 5 nukers.
If you say that current system is good then i will say [offensive content] yourself .
Since you don't know what they're planning to do exactly, you don't know that its going to be better. The point being made is that RSP is what we have now- the fact that not everyone has availability to full buffs shouldn't weigh in on how to balance. A simple solution to transfer pain? Decrease mattk proportional to the % damage transfer.
Everything will be better.I just dont see the way how they could make it worse than it is now.Because on each server you will find "top pvp clans/alliances" who run such gank groups through every exp spot and exping groups have zero chances to win against such groups.In fact often in such 9vs9 "perfect" group suffers 0 casualties while wiping exp group in 15 seconds.And Taraza please dont say anything.
A simple solution to transfer pain? Decrease mattk proportional to the % damage transfer.
Yeah! Let's nerf the heck out of two or three pure classes to fix a problem with a hybrid!
:)
Wasn't this idea suggested a couple months ago and thoroughly trashed?
Well, I dont get why are you all complaining?
I mean, seriously, we need balance. The game used to be balanced like that back on c1, then c2 came with the 1st super PVP class (daggers, anyone?).
Balance is good.
And I hope its not april fools lol, a bit too early IMO.
Awesome... people are already complaning about a balance system that is neither implemented, nor even confirmed by the devs... And besides SPS I don't know one person who thinks the game balance as it is now is anywhere near good, so every change must be a change to the better. :p
Well, I dont get why are you all complaining?
I mean, seriously, we need balance.
That's why I'm hoping this was a joke, or "complaining" if you prefer. In an MMO, Rock-Paper-Scissors is not a real balance for the reasons I've outlined (twice). :o
If the outcome of over 90% of mass PvP and 66% of 1v1 PvP is a foregone conclusion, by design, before the first blow is struck...that's not balance, that's a reason to not PvP.
Balance is good.
Absolutely. The way to balance the current system would be to fix it's flaws, not scrap it entirely and make a new one based on a principle that won't work with L2.
Or, if you prefer, tell me this:
This game is filled with varying degrees of hybrids. Is Anna's Elemental Summoner a Rock, a Paper, or a Scissors?
I agree with bekkar though I can't offer any real fixes (though I have some ideas such as not allowing for every casting bonus to stack) or at least allow melee to have one chance to catch up to their oponent.
Problem is that balancing PvP will affect PvE and that can be an issue. Not insurmountable but something to be aware of.
Awesome... people are already complaning about a balance system that is neither implemented, nor even confirmed by the devs...
Awesome... people are already praising a balance system that is neither implemented, nor even confirmed by the devs...
Yeah, it's just as silly. Of course, by that logic, even having a thread about this is silly. It is, as you said, neither implemented nor even confirmed by the developers.
I guess we just like to speculate. If that bothers you, nothing forces you to read what we say...because we're going to keep speculating. The good parts, even not implimented, we will praise. The bad parts, even not implimented, we will scorn.
And besides SPS I don't know one person who thinks the game balance as it is now is anywhere near good
Now you do! If melee characters could catch and kill ranged foes, wouldn't that solve most (not all) of the current problems? If, theoretically, adding one skill would bring us most of the way toward balance, with one little step, then actually it's close to good...just not good yet.
so every change must be a change to the better.
This one has me scratching my head, it's total nonsense. Let me present something that would fall under the hyperbole "every change" to give an example of why some changes would not be "to the better":
All nukes will do triple damage in PvP.
...now, who thinks that's better than what we have now?
Changes to an active MMO have to be carefully weighted against the design principles already in place, the mentality of the playerbase (:(), and the vision of the developers. Big changes that don't work out right can be the death knell of a game--I'm sure you know one or two that went out this way...I don't want L2 to be one of them.
Big changes that don't work out right can be the death knell of a game--I'm sure you know one or two that went out this way...I don't want L2 to be one of them.
Why do you think they are going to build a new system from scrap? What makes you think that? The devs already have proven to be lazy as hell when it comes to balancing, do you really think they will change even one line of code if not a horde of revolting korean fans force them to? I really, really doubt it.
Maybe mages and archers will be nerfed to a reasonable level... maybe melees will be boosted to a reasonable level... but the system itself will remain the same as always... and will still have its flavours of the month, the buffbots and the gank squads.
* Additions to Clan System
Recognizing that clan-based politics is one of Lineage2's greatest attractions, much more will be added to clan functionality. Some of these include:
o Clan Skills
o Clan Items
o Clan Ranks: Count, Baron, Knight etc.
This clan rank system will be a part of a greater hierarchy of Lord/Lady ,King/Queen, Emperor/Empress and this will form the basis of territorial wars and national wars which will be added in the future.
Every one is bit ching about the stupid pvp ballance, and completely over looked this part of the notes.
This of all things is one of the best things being added.
We've been asking since C1 for a clan ranking system. and now it's more diversed adding in allys and the whole comunity and make clan lvl 6/7 is awesome. (note: nothing that say s lvl 6/7 just that higher lvl clans will come)
Bishops seem to complain so often on here about their lack of PvP skills, yet a healer having great offensive skills is not balance. Bishops have sleep, so perhaps the best skill they should have is return, it seems strange it was not given to bishops and SEs too (although SEs have enough new skills compared to other buffing/healing classes :P). As for dwarves, wasn't the idea that they can make a lot more money then other characters, thus being able to afford better equipment which gives them an edge.
The clan rank system looks good, but with several features already limited to clans holding castles or halls the skills will possibly make the divide between wealthy and rich clans wider.
Bishops seem to complain so often on here about their lack of PvP skills, yet a healer having great offensive skills is not balance. Bishops have sleep, so perhaps the best skill they should have is return, it seems strange it was not given to bishops and SEs too (although SEs have enough new skills compared to other buffing/healing classes :P). As for dwarves, wasn't the idea that they can make a lot more money then other characters, thus being able to afford better equipment which gives them an edge.
The clan rank system looks good, but with several features already limited to clans holding castles or halls the skills will possibly make the divide between wealthy and rich clans wider.
Giving an edge by money is no way to go in MMO's truly it meens everyone can have it in the end and give no edge at all. Plus really dwarves get really no edge in L2 at all, Just party with one and viola you get the cash to as much as they get. It's just there way to contribut to the party in PvE.
About bishop and PvP skills, thats discussable but as far as I know L2 is hte only MMO where healers got no PvP oriented skills at all.
and PS EE got PR, it's what make that class more or less, give it to others completly destroy whats left for the EE, as EE have some of the worst buffs, and yeah Only Greater Heal and Vitalize, if other should get return EE truly need beter buffs AND the rest of the heals!
I still dont believe any of this..i think its just player suggestions that have been made and someones gone and made a joke of it by pretending its all going to happen in C5, i doubt that half of the things apparently being implemented in C5 would ever happen. Hoax tbh, pls can a GM clear this up Y.y??
Tanks maim archers (critical SA bleed helps archers with this)
Archers maim Nukers (sleep/cancel abilities help nukers)
Nukers maim Tanks (HP/CP helps tanks survive for more than 3-4 shots but really has nothing to counter attack with)...
And what about the Plains Walkers, Abyss Walkers, Treasure Hunters, Tyrants, Destroyers, Bounty Hunters, Warsmiths, Gladiators, Warlords, Phantom Summoners, Elemental Summoners, Warlocks, Bladedancers and Sword Singers that arent tanks, nukers or archers? This game has too many offensive classes that dont fit into 1 category or the other so you cant really balance it that easily.
Essentially you have:
- defensive, heavy melees(DA, Paladin, TK, SK -SK can be placed in offensive category too as it is the DD tank)
- offensive, heavy melees(Gladi/Tyrant in heavy, Destro, Warlord)
- offensive, light melees(Gladi/Tyrant in light, PW, AW, TH)
- supportive melees(BD, SwS)
- summoners(PS, ES, Warlock)
- summoner/nuker hybrid(NECROOO!)
- nukers(SPS, SH, Sorc)
- healers(Bishop, EE)
- buffers(Prophet, SE, OL, WC - yes, orc mages are buffers)
- archers(SR, PR, HE)
- dwarves(BH, WS... they are not defensive fighters, nor offensive fighters so they're in their own category ^^)
Now, if you can balance that with rock/paper/dynamite/semtex/c-4/atom bomb system, please tell us others too ;)
7. New Skills
There's talk of a new skill for bishops that buffs base stats, and a new summon for nukers.
Also, people say that Maestros (3rd class warsmith) will be able to unseal equipment.
so mabye we can buff nukers to let them go to +11 wit or someting? :p
more ways to solo eh? whats wrong with the healer community of korea, don't they ever whine, or are all healers 2boxes there as well. :/
Yeah, the concept blows... L2 had three major features: soloing was punished, open pvp was promoted and a relatively free player-to-player market.
Now they're gonna pour the rest of the buffs and healing powers into another set of pots for the asocial soloing freaks out there... just great ><
Now they're gonna pour the rest of the buffs and healing powers into another set of pots for the asocial soloing freaks out there... just great ><
Asocial ? Consider players who can't play as pro as you and who can't party well for many reasons , i would obviously not tell .
Maybe the op did a joke ( not funny ) , but in case it s not false , they said they will eliminate the pvp superclass , they can , they did it with daggers :eek: they can nerf very badly , a class better than anyother class shouldn't exist in a game , a big quantity of people want the best class , i don't think it s good motivation when making a character but the result it blows the game .
A silly comparaison , in the movie lord of the rings , gandalf is stronger than lots of melee but there is one gandalf and thousands of melee.
the existence of pvp superclass <=> lots of people play it => less melee so there is a hole in the balance .
I still dont believe any of this..i think its just player suggestions that have been made and someones gone and made a joke of it by pretending its all going to happen in C5, i doubt that half of the things apparently being implemented in C5 would ever happen. Hoax tbh, pls can a GM clear this up Y.y??
SPS don't be an idiot. Your just assuming it is, while some of us have looked and figured out it isn't a hoax. Hellrose took the time to look up and translate this information. It is information that has been released to the public in Korea. It is not a hoax and it's hard to start whining about something so vague as put in here. Most of these things are what should of been in C4, but hopefully C5 will come out earlier than C4 did.
A simple solution to transfer pain? Decrease mattk proportional to the % damage transfer.
Yeah! Let's nerf the heck out of two or three pure classes to fix a problem with a hybrid!
:)
Wasn't this idea suggested a couple months ago and thoroughly trashed?
I've never played a pure summoner class, but looking through thier skills, I don't see any offensive magic by the player for after the second class change. I'll keep looking though, or you could enlighten me.
yeah I'm not seeing any offensive magic skills after 40. When they can use thier sub 40 offensive magic transfer pain doesn't give a very high % of damage transfer, thus less of an impact on thier mattk. When thier sub 40 magic attacks would fail anyway is when it would be lowered the most, thus not affecting pure summoner breeds as much as you'd think.
A necro has offensive spells with transfer pain, and good summons to boot. Lowering the mattk of a necro during transfer pain usage would lower thier damage output just enough that it would take them more time to kill with the 'boost of hp' to balance with thier normal high damage output. A ranged tank with high damage output and the inabilty to avoid thier attacks is a bit much. A ranged tank with moderate damage is better. This is balanced to say they have more time to use CP pots/Healing pots, but they can't be in a semi god mode by using transfer pain and spamming pots while doing 1500+ damage a pop.
I still dont believe any of this..i think its just player suggestions that have been made and someones gone and made a joke of it by pretending its all going to happen in C5, i doubt that half of the things apparently being implemented in C5 would ever happen. Hoax tbh, pls can a GM clear this up Y.y??
North American GM's probably havn't seen the details either since the C5 prospect meeting was only on saturday night in korea. You can believe it's a joke, but you will eat your words soon enough i can garuntee you that.
If these suggestions are implemented in C5 i will quit and give you everything i own. I wont believe it untill offical infomation is released, not some crappy translation from just a average player. Imo Aprils fools joke.
If these suggestions are implemented in C5 i will quit and give you everything i own. I wont believe it untill offical infomation is released, not some crappy translation from just a average player. Imo Aprils fools joke.
Well, if they are true at least stick around to see what it's all about. When I first saw buttons on phones I thought it was ugly and gimicky (I was young what can I say).
If these suggestions are implemented in C5 i will quit and give you everything i own. I wont believe it untill offical infomation is released, not some crappy translation from just a average player. Imo Aprils fools joke.
Sorry to burst your bubble but its the middle of march not april no offense but dont be ******ed its Offical info on the L2 site in korea if u dont like hellrose's translation go translate it yourself. This is directly from the devs this info there are no NA devs any dev information is always going to posted in Korean.
The NA market has no dev and no real input into what comes out of korea we are just a secondary market for them.
I for one cannot wait for the flood of threads from mages lamenting the way they were nerfed.. remember the dagger nerf, [censored] it was so great, all the little overpowered kiddies crying and complaining.
I just hope that they nerf the mages like they did the daggers, in the true tradition of NCSoft, they'll be hit so hard they'll have trouble killing elpies. I just want one chronicle to get my revenge, then they can fix em to the way they should be. LOL
If these suggestions are implemented in C5 i will quit and give you everything i own. I wont believe it untill offical infomation is released, not some crappy translation from just a average player. Imo Aprils fools joke.
Hi, Hellrose here.
I translate because it's fun for me but also because I feel NA players should be able to know the direction this game is going as well as Korean players do. If it was up to the NCNA team that would never happen. I don't expect everyone to appreciate what I do but to suggest that I'm doing this as some big joke really ****** me off.
As for the 'crappy translation' bit, please let me know where the translation was unclear and I'll try to clarify. Keep in mind that the translation was directly from a Korean article that may or may not have appropriated and paraphrased parts, and therefore may not sound 'official'.
But the core information of it is there and true whether you like it or not. Deal with it on your own, don't shoot the messenger.
If these suggestions are implemented in C5 i will quit and give you everything i own. I wont believe it untill offical infomation is released, not some crappy translation from just a average player. Imo Aprils fools joke.
Hi, Hellrose here.
I translate because it's fun for me but also because I feel NA players should be able to know the direction this game is going as well as Korean players do. If it was up to the NCNA team that would never happen. I don't expect everyone to appreciate what I do but to suggest that I'm doing this as some big joke really ****** me off.
As for the 'crappy translation' bit, please let me know where the translation was unclear and I'll try to clarify. Keep in mind that the translation was directly from a Korean article that may or may not have appropriated and paraphrased parts, and therefore may not sound 'official'.
But the core information of it is there and true whether you like it or not. Deal with it on your own, don't shoot the messenger.
Thanks.
I <3 you Hellrose, don't let this guy piss you off. Your translations are as good as they get.
I <3 you Hellrose, don't let this guy piss you off. Your translations are as good as they get.
Most of us appreciate your efforts in translating these Hellrose. Thanks for giving us this information. If only to give us new things to agonize about. :D
If these suggestions are implemented in C5 i will quit and give you everything i own. I wont believe it untill offical infomation is released, not some crappy translation from just a average player. Imo Aprils fools joke.
Hi, Hellrose here.
I translate because it's fun for me but also because I feel NA players should be able to know the direction this game is going as well as Korean players do. If it was up to the NCNA team that would never happen. I don't expect everyone to appreciate what I do but to suggest that I'm doing this as some big joke really ****** me off.
As for the 'crappy translation' bit, please let me know where the translation was unclear and I'll try to clarify. Keep in mind that the translation was directly from a Korean article that may or may not have appropriated and paraphrased parts, and therefore may not sound 'official'.
But the core information of it is there and true whether you like it or not. Deal with it on your own, don't shoot the messenger.
Thanks.
Hellrose, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into finding this stuff and then translating it. Don't be put off by a few people who fear the nerf hammer. :)
I've never played a pure summoner class, but looking through thier skills, I don't see any offensive magic by the player for after the second class change. I'll keep looking though, or you could enlighten me.
It's way off-topic here, but if you'd like to start a "summoners need MAtk?" thread, I'm sure you'd be surprised at the response from people who actually know the classes.
Looking at the skill list and speculating is laughably insufficient. "Nuking summoner" is a thriving breed :p
These are the dumbest suggestions for the game ive ever heard. This game would die if many of these suggestions came into play, im a melee im all for fair pvp but they can shove their paper rock and scissors where the sun dont shine, i play for open pvp not chess type pvp. whats next then for C6, turn based pvp to support the laggy scrubs?
The sources you got your infomation, are they offical? I dont think so.. they look like fan sites or something to me. I just have your word that this is all real, id rather wait untill something offical is released, in english, before i make any more assumptions. However if all of what you claim is true then this game is dead, ill see you all on WoW.
Also why is it that the offical L2 person in the Q+A sounds so weird, whats with the -_- all about? Is he swearing or just his gormless "i dont know" expression.
In all the posts that hellrose has ever posted on translations of L2 updates, I have never seen them be false or made up. All of the translations she has made were very accurate and precise with differences only being when the devs decided to change something after feedback from korean pts players. If you doubt this then go find her posts on the c4 translations and compare them all to what was actually implemented.
I won't argue that some of the suggestions are very stupid. However, when has ncsoft not suggested and implemented stupid changes in the game? The problem is that the koreans game philosophy differs from ours. Unfortunately the korean devs don't seem to think that we are any different in our wants and ideas in gaming to allow for the NA devs to make changes as needed for our radically different style of gameplay in the same exact game.
Please keep posting your translations hellrose and pay no mind to the doubters that know no better. ^_^
These are the dumbest suggestions for the game ive ever heard. This game would die if many of these suggestions came into play, im a melee im all for fair pvp but they can shove their paper rock and scissors where the sun dont shine, i play for open pvp not chess type pvp. whats next then for C6, turn based pvp to support the laggy scrubs?
The sources you got your infomation, are they offical? I dont think so.. they look like fan sites or something to me. I just have your word that this is all real, id rather wait untill something offical is released, in english, before i make any more assumptions. However if all of what you claim is true then this game is dead, ill see you all on WoW.
Also why is it that the offical L2 person in the Q+A sounds so weird, whats with the -_- all about? Is he swearing or just his gormless "i dont know" expression.
All mmo's that involve PvP have a somewhat Rock/Paper/Scissors element in their systems. You can deny this all you want by trying to say that the others are variated systems and have much more diverse classes than we do, but that wont work. We almost have more classes that aren't classed within Melee/Nuker/Archer than are.
In all games certain classes are superior against some and weaker against others, it's always been this way. Even in your beloved WoW this pattern is visible quite clearly.
Don't take what people say as a complete literal thing and expect them to divide the entire class base into 3 categories (ala rock/paper/scissors) and make each category able to demolish one and have no defence against the other.
There are a tremendous amount of variables within the game's design without even taking into account the potentially infinite variables human beings bring to the table. This is never an easy thing to balance and never will be. There will always be a great deal of variation and diversity in the PvP we see and it will never be made as basic as a game of rock/paper/scissors.
Either it's going to be similar to rock/paper/scissors or it's going to have to be checkers.
If they went the direction of checkers then everyone would be as good at hurting one another as everyone else and pretty much the only variable to change this would be whoever initiates the combat. That's called Deathmatch or FFA and doesn't really have much place in a game such as this.
Ive always read and apprieated her translations, but this time i believe they are either false, as April 1st is not far off, or the Devs have gone completly insane and decided they wanted to destroy their game and force every1 to quit. I cannot possibly see how all classes can be balanced in terms of PvP, it makes no sense. Some classes are actually designed for PvP, ie Gladiators, whilst others are designed for PvE - Bounty Hunters. If this turns into the stupid *** system suggested then BH and Glads would be on an equal playing field, SCREW THAT. How would it work anyway, say melee is the rock and archers are the scissors, Archers hit a melee and recieves a message saying, sorry this a rock, you cannot hurt it, therefore target recieves 1 damage, where as the rock then hits the archer and it says, Congratulations you hit the correct class, target recieves 9999 damage.
PvP system is not broken, do not fix it, simply make a few changes to shift the balance of power, there is no need for a complete redesign of the game ffs. Just give melees greater speed or slow down ranged, simple as that.
Those are different games not L2, all other games suck in comparison when you look at PvP elements. L2 is superior.
I hate WoW, so its not my beloved game at all.
These are the dumbest suggestions for the game ive ever heard. This game would die if many of these suggestions came into play, im a melee im all for fair pvp but they can shove their paper rock and scissors where the sun dont shine, i play for open pvp not chess type pvp. whats next then for C6, turn based pvp to support the laggy scrubs?
The sources you got your infomation, are they offical? I dont think so.. they look like fan sites or something to me. I just have your word that this is all real, id rather wait untill something offical is released, in english, before i make any more assumptions. However if all of what you claim is true then this game is dead, ill see you all on WoW.
Also why is it that the offical L2 person in the Q+A sounds so weird, whats with the -_- all about? Is he swearing or just his gormless "i dont know" expression.
First of all, I think you're over-reacting. They haven't even hinted at the details of implementation, just goals. Also, most MMO games implement a counter-balance (rock-paper-scissor method, as Koreans call it) system for pvp because it's far easier to 'balance' and makes the game more dynamic. (WoW is a good example of this.)
And whoever said ALL classes will be balanced for PvP?
I'm sure NC recognizes that dwarven classes were always meant more for item creation, and healer classes were always meant to heal. I'm just as jaded and pessimistic as you are but tbh I was pleasantly surprised that they were even attempting at some sort of balance.. it's better than ignoring the problem altogether.
The Q&A section was obviously based on paraphrased notes that the author took during the convention. This wasn't an email/irc Q&A where you can copy and paste word by word. I'm guessing the -_- face was to indicate that the person answering seemed slightly flustered IRL when answering the question.
Hehehe, I'm not argueing the stupidness of this suggestion. I'll point out another 'fix' they made that IMHO made things worse. The new war system in c4 is next to pointless. The 1-way war system is broke (you still get full exp loss when killed by enemy clan you declared war on), and having to flag in 2-way war thus making the aoe classes next to useless just doesn't make sense. Also, since we now flag in 2-way wars other ppl have taken it into getting involved by detagging and ganking the enemy when they flag on the clan they are at war with, thus negating the 1/4 exp loss the war is supposed to give you in the first place.
So this new pvp system idea being stupid does not surprise me in the slightest after seeing pvp/pk counts and pvp vids from the koreans. They just don't do it outside of the arena or siege.
Ive always read and apprieated her translations, but this time i believe they are either false, as April 1st is not far off, or the Devs have gone completly insane and decided they wanted to destroy their game and force every1 to quit. I cannot possibly see how all classes can be balanced in terms of PvP, it makes no sense. Some classes are actually designed for PvP, ie Gladiators, whilst others are designed for PvE - Bounty Hunters. If this turns into the stupid *** system suggested then BH and Glads would be on an equal playing field, SCREW THAT. How would it work anyway, say melee is the rock and archers are the scissors, Archers hit a melee and recieves a message saying, sorry this a rock, you cannot hurt it, therefore target recieves 1 damage, where as the rock then hits the archer and it says, Congratulations you hit the correct class, target recieves 9999 damage.
PvP system is not broken, do not fix it, simply make a few changes to shift the balance of power, there is no need for a complete redesign of the game ffs. Just give melees greater speed or slow down ranged, simple as that.
I think your getting the wrong idea with the RPS method. Your thinking it's impossible for Rock to hurt Paper, yet if they do it RIGHT and lets pray they will, the RPS method will only work as a slight boost to the class. So SPS don't overreact on these systems they are thinking about balancing. I just hope it doesn't come to the point where the hero is determined by who they fight and not what they do in that fight.
SPS, youre too fixiated on the rock-paper-scissor metaphor... it's not going to be exactly like this... it's just... like... a picture... comparison... to underline the key element of the system... argh... I don't know how to explain it. :p
In rock-paper-scissor the scissors will always cut paper. In lineage there can be two papers who beat one scissors or a very pointy stone that cuts even through paper... it's just... meh I give up. ^^
Ive always read and apprieated her translations, but this time i believe they are either false, as April 1st is not far off, or the Devs have gone completly insane and decided they wanted to destroy their game and force every1 to quit. I cannot possibly see how all classes can be balanced in terms of PvP, it makes no sense. Some classes are actually designed for PvP, ie Gladiators, whilst others are designed for PvE - Bounty Hunters. If this turns into the stupid *** system suggested then BH and Glads would be on an equal playing field, SCREW THAT. How would it work anyway, say melee is the rock and archers are the scissors, Archers hit a melee and recieves a message saying, sorry this a rock, you cannot hurt it, therefore target recieves 1 damage, where as the rock then hits the archer and it says, Congratulations you hit the correct class, target recieves 9999 damage.
PvP system is not broken, do not fix it, simply make a few changes to shift the balance of power, there is no need for a complete redesign of the game ffs. Just give melees greater speed or slow down ranged, simple as that.
I think your getting the wrong idea with the RPS method. Your thinking it's impossible for Rock to hurt Paper, yet if they do it RIGHT and lets pray they will, the RPS method will only work as a slight boost to the class. So SPS don't overreact on these systems they are thinking about balancing. I just hope it doesn't come to the point where the hero is determined by who they fight and not what they do in that fight.
Exactly Vent. RPS means a class has an advantage, not domination. It means rock vs scissor, rock wings. 2 rock vs 8 scissors, scissors win. You assume numbers will stop playing a factor and this is untrue. It means if say archers counter nukers, an equal number of archers will have ease killing an equal number of nukers. Take Age of Empires. A pikeman can counter a knight, but two knights still kill the pikeman. And that game is VERY RPS. To make L2 more RPS, the effect of mdef/pdef would just have to be boosted. So a class with 900 mdef would take significantly different damage from 1100 mdef. Boosting the way defense plays out would make pvp last longer, battles more epic, and allow non-ranged to better "close the gap."
And Vent, eventually heroes will probably be fighting class internal :p Then you will simply get a mix of, who is truly the BEST in class.
How would it work anyway, say melee is the rock and archers are the scissors, Archers hit a melee and recieves a message saying, sorry this a rock, you cannot hurt it, therefore target recieves 1 damage, where as the rock then hits the archer and it says, Congratulations you hit the correct class, target recieves 9999 damage.
As much as I feel that Rock-Paper-Scissors (RPS?) isn't the way to go in L2, and as much as I'm suspicious of how the developers would impliment such a change, even I don't think it'll be nearly that pronounced.
Do I think RPS is misguided? Yes.
Do I think it's trying to drive a nail with a sledge? Yes.
Will I carefully review my $15 against their changes? Yes.
Do I think they have a good track record* with balance changes? A hesitant "yes".
Am I so sure that they're going to -_- it up that I'm cancelling billing already? Heck no.
* Wait, I just said they have an ok record, didn't I? Here's why: in the past, they've focused on changing one or two things at a time, and in doing avoided major catastrophe like I've seen in a lot of MMO titles. This is also why I consider a major change like RPS such an ill omen--it's, in theory, the biggest balance change L2 has seen, and over a year after release!
Those are different games not L2, all other games suck in comparison when you look at PvP elements. L2 is superior.
I hate WoW, so its not my beloved game at all.
Some classes are actually designed for PvP, ie Gladiators, whilst others are designed for PvE - Bounty Hunters.
Gladiators are designed for PVP? What game are you playing dude? Gladiators are probably the WORST DD class in the game. You really need to get outside of the arena and play some real PVP.
Some classes are actually designed for PvP, ie Gladiators, whilst others are designed for PvE - Bounty Hunters.
Gladiators are designed for PVP? What game are you playing dude? Gladiators are probably the WORST DD class in the game. You really need to get outside of the arena and play some real PVP.
omg i agree with torqq!!!!!111
I love glads... 90% of them rerolled at the end of c2 thinking that with cp they would be the new fotm. Now that they realise their class is terrible... they come on the forums and complain a lot.
SPS, youre too fixiated on the rock-paper-scissor metaphor... it's not going to be exactly like this... it's just... like... a picture... comparison... to underline the key element of the system... argh... I don't know how to explain it. :p
In rock-paper-scissor the scissors will always cut paper. In lineage there can be two papers who beat one scissors or a very pointy stone that cuts even through paper... it's just... meh I give up. ^^
Cal
Exactly Cal, What I think that some people fail to realize is that there are many more aspects to lineage that the rock, paper, scissor metaphor. If the game consisted of just Tank, Mage and DD then the statement would be accurate. But since the game is comprised of many different diverse classes some who don't fit into any catagory then its safe to say that rock, paper, scissor is just a vague explanation of the pvp system to come.
I have a theory how it will work, I think pvp will play alot like pve. If you notice mobs have strenths and vunerabilites, making it very easy for some classes and hard for others. For example alot of archer mobs are blunt vunerable so maybe in c5 archers will be blunt vunerable as well. Making dwarves and other blunt users stronger against that particular class. Another example, Necromancer is a dark users so paladin,tk/sws would be the best option to fight this particular class. Anyone seeing the pattern? If this is how the system will play it will make Lineage II pvp alot more diverse. Instead of consisting of the typical nuker/archer supporter groups. Is it a bad thing? By no means its not, at the moment we don't even have balance. One class dominates all. In c5 everyone will have something to bring to the table.
* Greater Balance between classes
Elimination of PvP superclass. The classes will be counterbalanced in a RockPaperScissor way. Certain classes will be stronger against some classes over others.
This could be the best addition to any chrocnicle so far, as long as they do it right. Maybe this will bring back the countless melee players that have quit the game because of ranged dominance.
They need to address one major problem, ranged DD classes being better than melee DD classes at every aspect of this game: Open PVP, Siege PVP, PVE, raids, ganking, fighting off gank attacks, griefing, stoping griefers, and more.
In every aspect of this game, an archer or nuker is better than every one of these "DD" classes:
<ul type="square">
Gladiator
Warlord
Dwarfs
Destroyer
Tyrant
All daggers
All tanks
He does make a good point, however. The game WOULD balance out, even paper/rock/scissors style if ranged speed were say...halved :p
They could also balance the whole thing out by simply giving melee classes bonuses vs specific armor types:
Melee vs Robes = x6 damage
Melee vs Light = x3 Damage
Melee vs Heavy = x1 Damage
There you go.. the whole problem solved.
Us Melees would still be fairly easy until we overcome range.. once we get withing MELEE range.. then you better look out.
It's the way it should have been from the very beginning. It's exactly what they did to fix archers and daggers in C3. They made the armor type affect their damage.
Some classes are actually designed for PvP, ie Gladiators, whilst others are designed for PvE - Bounty Hunters.
Gladiators are designed for PVP? What game are you playing dude? Gladiators are probably the WORST DD class in the game. You really need to get outside of the arena and play some real PVP.
You sir are a fool. Or have yet to PvP a competant Gladiator. Gladiators when played correctly with the correct set up are to be more feared then any other melee and possibly archer.
Gladiators are not weak, if you think that then you need a reality check. A class which can dish out 6k damage (on robes) in 15 seconds is weak...yeh sure if thats what you think.
The Rock/Paper/Scissor thing, it just means that one class will be weaker than another class when it comes to PvP. I don't see why anyone would be so against this idea? They said they woudl eliminate the superclass (which would probably be ranged classes right now). Isn't that enough? Seriously, isn't this whole PvP controversy about 1 and only 1 specific thing?
Ranged classes > all?
So if they eliminate that dominance, isn't that what all of the melee players have been asking for? Then why ***** about it? I say wait and see what they come up with in a more concrete way. Theres no use getting worked up about something thats just a "concept".
Some classes are actually designed for PvP, ie Gladiators, whilst others are designed for PvE - Bounty Hunters.
Gladiators are designed for PVP? What game are you playing dude? Gladiators are probably the WORST DD class in the game. You really need to get outside of the arena and play some real PVP.
You sir are a fool. Or have yet to PvP a competant Gladiator. Gladiators when played correctly with the correct set up are to be more feared then any other melee and possibly archer.
Gladiators are not weak, if you think that then you need a reality check. A class which can dish out 6k damage (on robes) in 15 seconds is weak...yeh sure if thats what you think.
LOL 6k dmg in 15 seconds is nothing compared to archers and nukers who do the same if not more dmg and start at a range.
Now for those of you underinformed. Mightmortal was NOT the problem with daggers in C2, it was critical rate effecting land rate. In C2 having a Focus Dagger was the same as having a mightmortal dagger. That and Vicious Stance ignoring P.Def.
SPS, are you a heavy or light armor Glad? My clan leader is Light with +Str and +Dex, and she's friggen annoying for me to try and kill, its like fighting an archer that doesnt run.
* Greater Balance between classes
Elimination of PvP superclass. The classes will be counterbalanced in a RockPaperScissor way. Certain classes will be stronger against some classes over others.
This could be the best addition to any chrocnicle so far, as long as they do it right. Maybe this will bring back the countless melee players that have quit the game because of ranged dominance.
They need to address one major problem, ranged DD classes being better than melee DD classes at every aspect of this game: Open PVP, Siege PVP, PVE, raids, ganking, fighting off gank attacks, griefing, stoping griefers, and more.
In every aspect of this game, an archer or nuker is better than every one of these "DD" classes:
<ul type="square">
Gladiator
Warlord
Dwarfs
Destroyer
Tyrant
All daggers
All tanks
Hmm...I was unaware dwarfs, and tanks were considered melee DD. I think the definition of "tank" is one who has alot of defense and hp/cp and does little damage. I will agree that Gladiator, Destroyer, Tyrant, and Daggers could be considered melee "dd's" but I think in just about every game damage is done better by archers and mages.
Oh and don't forget, even if archers hit for lets say 300 dmg less a hit, and didn't critical, They could still kill melee just by kiting them. It would just take significantly longer.
I still say just give melee a way to catch up to ranged people (a sprint for all of them that stacks with all existing speed buffs, sws speed buff, tyrant skill) And see what happens.
I still say just give melee a way to catch up to ranged people (a sprint for all of them that stacks with all existing speed buffs, sws speed buff, tyrant skill) And see what happens.
I still say just give melee a way to catch up to ranged people (a sprint for all of them that stacks with all existing speed buffs, sws speed buff, tyrant skill) And see what happens.
does no one realize that killing archers are relatively easy for TK/SWS? 176+ spd (self buffed) + shield block ftw.
make mdef more useful by modifying the m dmg eq and TK/SWS will be mage killers too.
You should go look into the fan art section, ive posted a few pvp's, one where i narrowly lost to a mage, who had me slowed, he had like 200hp left. Another where i desamated a tank class with CP to spare. Archers are easy prey 1v1 self buffs only, with buffs they own me, but im ok with that. Tyrants are weaker then gladiators fyi, they dont get a move as powerfull as TSS, instead they get the totems, pvping tyrants is always fun but gladiator comes out on top. Seriosuly shut up about tanks tho, my p def as a gladiator isnt that far lower then theres, they have about 1500 and i have 1150, thats not much of a difference, and so you know TSS does 700 dmg when i test on an equal lvl tank (paladin) not 400, where did you get that info from, a lvl 55 glad vs 61+ tank >.>?
No dagger even trying to use a bow can beat me either, i have 2 ranged which i can spam and a dagger cant handle many of these 4-5 and he is dead. Also whats stopping me using a bow? Nothing.
This post is not about gladiator pvp abilites, it jut seems the public is misinformed about their abilites because of 1-2 experiances with a couple o' noob glads so ill put you all straight.
Still dont believe me? Then come watch me do some open pvp on bartz. Im not just words, ill back it up with evidence.
...Gladiators when played correctly with the correct set up are to be more feared then any other melee and possibly archer.
Gladiators are not weak, if you think that then you need a reality check. A class which can dish out 6k damage (on robes) in 15 seconds is weak...yeh sure if thats what you think.
I can do more than that 6k dmg on a _HEAVY_ class in 1 hit. You saying that you should be feared more than me? Dont think so buddy, Destro > Gladi. And Titan = king of melee.
When you will see a Titan with STR setup, using a + Draconic Bow with Focus and having Sword Muse and Spectral Dancer with him, you will know what the _REAL_ melee DD does. 6k is foreplay, thats like my pattk with a Dragon Slayer.
...Gladiators when played correctly with the correct set up are to be more feared then any other melee and possibly archer.
Gladiators are not weak, if you think that then you need a reality check. A class which can dish out 6k damage (on robes) in 15 seconds is weak...yeh sure if thats what you think.
I can do more than that 6k dmg on a _HEAVY_ class in 1 hit. You saying that you should be feared more than me? Dont think so buddy, Destro > Gladi. And Titan = king of melee.
When you will see a Titan with STR setup, using a + Draconic Bow with Focus and having Sword Muse and Spectral Dancer with him, you will know what the _REAL_ melee DD does. 6k is foreplay, thats like my pattk with a Dragon Slayer.
Pulling off the insane p atk on destroyers is very dangerous and hard to do. Also you cant keep it up in open pvp. Gladiators on the other hand can let fly 4 specials in the space of 15 seconds and pull off anywhere from 3->10k damage depending on the target. Destroyers are a strange class, if skillfully done and they pull it off, they can get the insane p atk but its risky when at that HP you can get 1-2 hit killed, so you have to do or die. Its not like a destroyer can actually stroll about with perma 12k patk. I was annoyed at the strength of titans on the PTS, but ive beaten them there and on live. I have replays of it, i was swinging away on the titan for like 200-300 dmg per sword, then suddenly it was 20 - 30 dmg o.O. I assume it was guts that was used, annoying but i still won because i out lasted him by staying outa bow range for 90 seconds, before closing in for the kill when it wore off.
Oh also your not a melee if your using a draco bow....
& its 4k dmg on light armour classes, not 6k on heavy. Ive seen a BD take a crit hit from titan using BoP+12, titan had about 11k p atk and the BD got hit for about 4k from a crit. Normal shots were doing 2k on him, he was in draco light, not even heavy.
Well, talking with Taraza about Sword Muse skills led me to think about the cooldown timer on Frenzy and Guts and they might be non existant with all the new buffs on a speed build ^^ so for PVE they can be used for almost all the time, and in Sieges for almost every rush if you stay buffed.
Having 3k HP left when at 30% is only 2 shots for nukers/archers in some cases, so it's pretty safe to Frenzy+Battleroar against melees especially :) And if it's a CON build, it will have around 6k HP to beging with at that point, and even if it has gimped STR, it will still deal alot of dmg in Frenzy ^^
And yes, Destroyer needs alot of skill and items to be really great T_T Costs alot to fully equip the class. This leads to the fact that many people belittle us, as they havent met many truely good destros. Same happens to Gladis too tho as they're a class that lots of people play to early 60's before rolling. Not that many 7x Gladis or Destros around.
Were you two using pots btw? I carry 60 Greater CP pots, 20 QHP and 20-40 GHP with me all the time, which means that against melees I will last for a loooong time.
I never pot in 1v1 pvp, only time i use pots is siege grounds where i think its acceptable. Id rather take a loss in 1v1 then pot. Thats just me tho. The fight i had vs the titan, i had self buffs and haste2 wind walk 2 pot on, i assume the titan had the same because he had no buff bot and was moving n hitting fast, i was grinding away and saw him run past. I got the first hit off but he hit back pretty fast so i guess he saw me too. I do lose to destro/titans in arena tho, simply because the lack of space to stay away from them when they hit guts/frenzy.
Also with the re-use timer buffs needed for ur destro.... then you gotta see a gladiator spam out TSS, DSS, thats not nice at all.
The real questions are ... in the improved "paper rock scissors" pvp scheme, what class does an EE beat? or a prophet, or any other healer/buffer???? o.O
The real questions are ... in the improved "paper rock scissors" pvp scheme, what class does an EE beat? or a prophet, or any other healer/buffer???? o.O
Maybe EE will be able to cast their holy attack(Might of heaven?) on necromancers and their pets and anything else they will consider to be undead/dark.
The real questions are ... in the improved "paper rock scissors" pvp scheme, what class does an EE beat? or a prophet, or any other healer/buffer???? o.O
I think it's more "paper rock scissors EE", where everything beats an EE. Sorry.
I've never played a pure summoner class, but looking through thier skills, I don't see any offensive magic by the player for after the second class change. I'll keep looking though, or you could enlighten me.
It's way off-topic here, but if you'd like to start a "summoners need MAtk?" thread, I'm sure you'd be surprised at the response from people who actually know the classes.
Looking at the skill list and speculating is laughably insufficient. "Nuking summoner" is a thriving breed :p
Well, to add- I played a spellsinger until about level 60. In an effort to try and conserve mp soloing I continued using my sub 40 skills (the same ones an elven summoner would have) and they began naturally failing consistantly in the early to mid 50's. Whereas all pure summoner classes do not get stronger powered spells, it seemed logical that they'd start failing the same way at the same levels (they get the same weapon mastery levels at the same times).
I hardly think Rock/Paper/Scissor system will apply to non-melees like Healer and dwarf types. It would be utterly stupid to have non-melee types owning any melee/offensive mage oriented class.
When people choose to play healer and dwarf type classes, they do it KNOWING its a support class. period. If you dont like it, you can choose another offensive oriented class.
I hardly think Rock/Paper/Scissor system will apply to non-melees like Healer and dwarf types. It would be utterly stupid to have non-melee types owning any melee/offensive mage oriented class.
When people choose to play healer and dwarf type classes, they do it KNOWING its a support class. period. If you dont like it, you can choose another offensive oriented class.
i think thats the type of mentality we need out the window. I want all classes to be a challenge for every class. I know myself it's boring killing healers etc because they just simply can't defend themselves. The game would be alot more fun if everyone had a way to kill or win.
Phyrra, I'm glad that you do have a basis for your assumptions. They are, however, still incorrect. Some summoner types commonly use their nukes well into their 60's (although I don't play that type presently), as they have infinite MP and their recourse is to hit things with a stick.
The fact that it fails more than half the time doesn't necessarily matter when the summoner's main damage is coming from a different source anyway. All it has to do is cause more damage than he would be doing with a bow and it's completely worthwhile.
Also, MAtk affects things summoners do care about, although to a lesser extent--such as their heals.
Nerfing all summoners MAtk to fix Necromancers is still a very poor idea. Also, it's still off-topic.
Give healers some sort of "zombification" debuff, where healing magic does harm to target. Kinda like Zombie status in Final Fantasy.
Now that would turn things more interresting. 1200+ damage on Greater Heal has it's magic ;)
Hmm...I was unaware dwarfs, and tanks were considered melee DD. I think the definition of "tank" is one who has alot of defense and hp/cp and does little damage.
Actually, a Tank would be someone that can hold aggro. Us dwarves have no way to do that, and do so little damage even pets easily pull aggro off us.
I hardly think Rock/Paper/Scissor system will apply to non-melees like Healer and dwarf types. It would be utterly stupid to have non-melee types owning any melee/offensive mage oriented class.
When people choose to play healer and dwarf type classes, they do it KNOWING its a support class. period. If you dont like it, you can choose another offensive oriented class.
i think thats the type of mentality we need out the window. I want all classes to be a challenge for every class. I know myself it's boring killing healers etc because they just simply can't defend themselves. The game would be alot more fun if everyone had a way to kill or win.
I know of NO MMORPGs out there where a healer type beats up a dedicated melee type or offensive mage type character. Hmm I wonder why that is? Maybe its just because design-wise it doesnt make any sense at all that a healer type should even be a match for a MELEE when they are supposed to be HEALERS? get it?
Healers should not and will not beat melees in a PvP situation. Its unheard of in any pen and paper RPG or any RPG type game I have EVER heard of. Theres a reason why healers are SUPPORT classes.
I'm going to have to assume you mean healer/buffer types when you say "healers", since there are no 100% healer types in L2 anyway.
I know of NO MMORPGs out there where a healer type beats up a dedicated melee type or offensive mage type character.
Self-buffed, L2 is that game...in fact, Prophets can be downright painful...so I'm pretty sure you do know one. I know of a couple others, but perhaps you haven't played them, so I won't assume there's more than one that you seriously should know.
Healers should not and will not beat melees in a PvP situation. Its unheard of in any pen and paper RPG or any RPG type game I have EVER heard of.
Wait, we can count pen-and-paper? Heck, the classes with healing are grossly overpowered in D&D, if they try. Have you heard of D&D?
Theres a reason why healers are SUPPORT classes.
That would be because they're good at supporting people. Nothing in there says they can't be good solo too--they can use support skills on themselves--you're just presuming it should mean they're helpless...it simply doesn't.
You have your own idea of what a healer should be--a semi-useless tagalong that keeps your little red bar full. That's fine, you're entitled to an opinion. You just happen to be blatantly wrong.
I know of NO MMORPGs out there where a healer type beats up a dedicated melee type or offensive mage type character. Hmm I wonder why that is? Maybe its just because design-wise it doesnt make any sense at all that a healer type should even be a match for a MELEE when they are supposed to be HEALERS? get it?
Priests in WoW, anyone? Sure, if you spec them completely for raids, they are not that powerful 1v1. But other than that, they are VERY good at pvp. People actually cried for nerfs.
I know of NO MMORPGs out there where a healer type beats up a dedicated melee type or offensive mage type character. Hmm I wonder why that is? Maybe its just because design-wise it doesnt make any sense at all that a healer type should even be a match for a MELEE when they are supposed to be HEALERS? get it?
Healers should not and will not beat melees in a PvP situation. Its unheard of in any pen and paper RPG or any RPG type game I have EVER heard of. Theres a reason why healers are SUPPORT classes.
Well, Guild Wars. Healers have Smiting Spells. They also have a spell called peace that makes it so you can't attack.
Healers being able to pvp in Lineage2 would suck. If they have pvp abilities, that means they can deal damage, which means they can use those skills on mobs and would then be a totally over power'd PvE class. They would hit hard and fast and when low hp just heal themselves and carry on. Battle prophets are nice, but when it comes to pvp they will only win if its a self buffed match, which is rare, thats why they arnt over power'd But if you then gave them PvP skills then they would be too strong. So no thanks, Healers are support classes they should stay that way. When your at the class selection and you choose healer, you do it knowing your purpose is to heal people and offer support, not to own in face-2-face pvp.
Why does every1 want all classes to be equal, that would be crap and boring. Every class has its advantage for some its pve, some its pvp and some its support, choose your class depending on what you want to do, dont expect unrealistic things such as 1337 pwning healers at pvp who are then also 1337 at pve and support, you cant have it all.
That may be, but when one is at the character creation screen and one chooses Necro, isn't one doing so because they want to "omg i pwnt you, roxorz!"
Why can't all the classes have an equal chance (or a "more" equal) to do well in pvp.
Again, using the Guildwars example, depending on how you spec your class you can do either very well or very poorly. But it is entirely possible to have a Healer that does very well.
Since this isn't GW they would have to make many changes. It might require a paradigm shift but I believe it's possible to bring a more satisfactory pvp experience to more people. Maybe it will require not more attack spells but more defense spells for healers. So, they are not kill/death powerhouses but they have amazing defense.
I don't know how one would do it but I don't think it's impossible. Nor do I think it's unwanted. It just means they really have to rethink the combat in L2. Maybe something good... maybe something bad. :eek:
Usually the players who choose to go 'healers' are more passive and dont openly seek pvp action...
Those who choose necro do it knowing they will be good at pvp, thats fine, but they arnt such an asset at PvE and they cant really support others. You choose one aspect of the game in favour of another depending on your play style, i think it is unreasonable for one class to have it all. PvP healers would deal another blow to the melees, most melees arnt able to support other classes like healers, so they have better PvP/PvE techniques, give healers damage spells and they will out class the melee in all grounds, healers would have pvp, pve and support on their side, where as the melees only have 2/3 factors
I know of NO MMORPGs out there where a healer type beats up a dedicated melee type or offensive mage type character. Hmm I wonder why that is? Maybe its just because design-wise it doesnt make any sense at all that a healer type should even be a match for a MELEE when they are supposed to be HEALERS? get it?
Healers should not and will not beat melees in a PvP situation. Its unheard of in any pen and paper RPG or any RPG type game I have EVER heard of. Theres a reason why healers are SUPPORT classes.
RO = Battle Priest build is very tough and can solo exp really well.
WoW = Priests as already mentioned.
AD&D = Clerics/Priests could easily kill melee fighters as they had melee abilities+healing prayers+boosting prayers+damaging prayers+all the other goodies.
There's plenty more of em, but those 3 already serve to show that your statement was false.
The difference being those games are rubbish and L2 is good, for two reasons, 1) L2 has the graphics 2) lineage has no stupid pvp DD healers. Give us those DD healers and this game will have the same fate as the others.
The difference being those games are rubbish and L2 is good, for two reasons, 1) L2 has the graphics 2) lineage has no stupid pvp DD healers. Give us those DD healers and this game will have the same fate as the others.
rofl.
yeah every game's demise is based on the dd capability of healers
I wonder why SPS is so overly devensive of a system that most of the players (even those who are on the "winning" side) consider crap. While his only argument is "it would sooo suck!"
Mind to explain why you think that you know better than people who actually play a certain class, what they would enjoy, can enjoy and must enjoy?
Healers are not a pvp class wth !? they should never be a pvp class, there is no logic in it. They train in healing arts whilst everyone else dedicates themselves to the damage dealing arts. Where the hell is the sense in healers being able to deal damage to anything that isnt undead seriously. This game is fine, we all enjoy playing it, change it to anything else in an attempt to mimic other games and it will go down the pan, i guarentee you. Lineage2 should remain unique, the developers have done an excellent job, do not fix what is not broken. & No mages killing you in 5 shots is not broken.
Healers are not a pvp class wth !? they should never be a pvp class, there is no logic in it. They train in healing arts whilst everyone else dedicates themselves to the damage dealing arts. Where the hell is the sense in healers being able to deal damage to anything that isnt undead seriously. This game is fine, we all enjoy playing it, change it to anything else in an attempt to mimic other games and it will go down the pan, i guarentee you. Lineage2 should remain unique, the developers have done an excellent job, do not fix what is not broken. & No mages killing you in 5 shots is not broken.
The game can remain unique even with some changes.
Only subtle changes are required for the most part, in order to fix what most people complain about. But complaints are not always a good indication of whether something needs changing.
The problems that are there can be fixed without hurting the game.
Again you only said: I know better what other classes should be, and since I like it, it must be good. That can be an opinion... but don't expect to convince anyone that way, so please stop whining about people with opinions that are based on experience. Thank you.
A healer should be a healer. Although in L2 a healer is merely a buff bot. Look around you, far less than 50% of all healers/buffers are played by players. Far, far less. So those classes must be perfectly fun to play. I think about more than a bunch of macros hit on a secondary keyboard hearing the term "healer" or "buffer". Also one might get quite a different impression of what to expect reading the class description of tanks... like that they could actually take damage... to give just one example.
Just because you have a very narrow view on some classes that does neither make yours the only valid opinion, nor does it mean the game is good for everyone else.
I said PvP, not PvE. Healers can and have done well in PvE in this game, espeically with their undead nukes. I DO have an alt SE that is lvl60+ and a prophet that his almost lvl 60, my main is in the 70s, so excuse me, I know what Im talking about.
But the fact is healers should not be able to PvP well against melees. They are HEALERS. The principle of being a healer is that they HEAL, not MELEE.
Priests in WoW are only really effective against the undead types. Also in D&D, which I know of, Healers do not PWN Melees in PvP. I dont know of any healer types in D&D that could beat a melee in close combat. Perhaps if the cleric had several chance to cast spells like "cause harm" or the like before the melee got close, maybe perhaps THEN, a cleric might win, but still its doubtful. D&D is just like Lineage, where its equipment and stats dependant. If a melee has magic resist items or "buffs", you can kiss that cleric goodbye.
Healers are not a pvp class wth !? they should never be a pvp class, there is no logic in it. They train in healing arts whilst everyone else dedicates themselves to the damage dealing arts. Where the hell is the sense in healers being able to deal damage to anything that isnt undead seriously. This game is fine, we all enjoy playing it, change it to anything else in an attempt to mimic other games and it will go down the pan, i guarentee you. Lineage2 should remain unique, the developers have done an excellent job, do not fix what is not broken. & No mages killing you in 5 shots is not broken.
so why do healers need to kill in olympiad wize guy.
Also in D&D, which I know of, Healers do not PWN Melees in PvP. I dont know of any healer types in D&D that could beat a melee in close combat. Perhaps if the cleric had several chance to cast spells like "cause harm" or the like before the melee got close, maybe perhaps THEN, a cleric might win, but still its doubtful. D&D is just like Lineage, where its equipment and stats dependant. If a melee has magic resist items or "buffs", you can kiss that cleric goodbye.
You may wish to just not talk about D&D, seriously. You're so far off the mark that it's silly.
In second edition, an evil cleric could drop any class, basically regardless of gear, in two rounds or less. No chance to resist, just run or die. Grossly overpowered, and a big part of why some spells got changed so much.
In third edition, it's a little better, but still kind of wrong. Basically, they just removed a couple overpowered spell effects but, to put it in L2 terms, still left them with the armor of a tank, 90% of the HP of a tank, the ability to completely recover all their HP in a single difficult-to-interrupt spell, a few spells that would make a melee character incapable of harming them for a time, massive summons, and a series of unresistable damage spells or partially-resistable instant-death spells. They're still sick and wrong, if the player bothers.
And don't get me started on druids. The group I used to game with visibly winced when I showed them an example of play. Concensus was that character probably could have polished off the enemy and his own party, one after the other, with little risk of death...I don't think they want me to ever play one again, actually.
If a D&D melee class lands a single hit on a D&D "healer", the healer must be a grossly incompetent player. No melee should last that long against a moderately-skilled cleric/druid.
Actually, if we're going to go with the D&D analogies, then our "healers" aren't healers at all. They're much closer to the Bard class: their best heals are 1/3 of a tank's HP, variety of buff spells, light armor rather than robes or heavy, low HP, basically no direct-damage spells, etc. L2 doesn't have anything that resembles D&D "healer" classes, because frankly they'd own everything else hands-down.
Stick to L2, at least you seem to have some idea what you're talking about there :p
You sir are a fool. Or have yet to PvP a competant Gladiator. Gladiators when played correctly with the correct set up are to be more feared then any other melee and possibly archer.
Gladiators are not weak, if you think that then you need a reality check. A class which can dish out 6k damage (on robes) in 15 seconds is weak...yeh sure if thats what you think.
Juat curious, what qualifications do you have behind your claims? I've been playing since Day0, have muliple 70+ characters, one of them level 78, and I'm in a guild that can field almost 2 full partys of level 77-78 characters. We PVP every day, in every form, sieges, ganks, griefing, open pvp, 1v1s, arena, you name it.
Trust me, you are wrong. Gladiators are horrible compared to ranged DD classes in every one of the PVP situations I listed.
Trust me, you are wrong. Gladiators are horrible compared to ranged DD classes in every one of the PVP situations I listed.
/agree
One time our group was overwhelmed by the clan we where at war with, I was the only one alive and they just slowed me and backed off to let theyr glad have a pvp point, funny thing is I outhealed his damage for such a long time they got bored and a nuker 2shot me :P
Haha you think im sort of a pvp noob? read again what ive said, unbuffed pvp i can defeat archers, then i went on to say with buffs they defeat me.
I've played since beta aswell, ive never strayed from the path of the melee. I know what im talking about and if you still doubt my words then meet me on Bartz and ill lay your doubts to rest... 6 feet under where all the other clowns who mistook Gladiators for weak noobs lay to rest.
In unbuffed battles gladiators will rip open a new hole into anything that gets into range. In buffed pvp we die to ranged but will still destroy all other melees, which is what our task is, if a gladiator finds himself pvping an archer or nuker on the siege field then he is doing something wrong.
In arena PvP you claim your beloved archer can defeat a glad, i dont think so, you have no room to swing a dead cat let alone keep a gladiator at kiteing distance. Oh and btw some of us gladiators of higher intelligence use a thing called a "shield" this shield yeh guess what it does, listen to this right, it really helps for pvp vs archers, oh and hey guess what, we have stun attack aswell as a newly re-powerd fatal strike. So guess what, archers arnt so high and mighty as you seem to think.
Right right right...you think your heals can out last a gladiator, your lieing or the glad was lvl 40. TSS-2000 Dmg on robes instantly straight into triple slash, an extra 800 damage, whilst the triple slash is in effect we hit 2 focus stones, which then allows us to pull off a DSS for an extra 1000 dmg, thats a 3 hit combo with a total of 3800 on average on a robe class, you heal what, like 1000hp per heal? Not to mention the gladiator can by now choose to either hit another 2 stones and launch a blaster, or wait for the re-use timer and smack you in the face with another 3hit combo. In the mean time we can hit hard and fast which is more then likely going to cancel some of those heals. Saying you can sustain yourself against constant melee damage, especially from a Gladiator is foolish.
Healers are not a pvp class wth !? they should never be a pvp class, there is no logic in it. They train in healing arts whilst everyone else dedicates themselves to the damage dealing arts. Where the hell is the sense in healers being able to deal damage to anything that isnt undead seriously. This game is fine, we all enjoy playing it, change it to anything else in an attempt to mimic other games and it will go down the pan, i guarentee you. Lineage2 should remain unique, the developers have done an excellent job, do not fix what is not broken. & No mages killing you in 5 shots is not broken.
so why do healers need to kill in olympiad wize guy.
Let me see, theres an option right where you PvP your own class. It doesnt get much more balanced then that. This however does not happen because of the lack of noblesse. It was intended that support classes such as the healer pvps itself in order to become a hero. But everyone enters the all range because at the moment the population lacks enough noblesse to allow such battles. Alrite?
Also in D&D, which I know of, Healers do not PWN Melees in PvP. I dont know of any healer types in D&D that could beat a melee in close combat. Perhaps if the cleric had several chance to cast spells like "cause harm" or the like before the melee got close, maybe perhaps THEN, a cleric might win, but still its doubtful. D&D is just like Lineage, where its equipment and stats dependant. If a melee has magic resist items or "buffs", you can kiss that cleric goodbye.
You may wish to just not talk about D&D, seriously. You're so far off the mark that it's silly.
In second edition, an evil cleric could drop any class, basically regardless of gear, in two rounds or less. No chance to resist, just run or die. Grossly overpowered, and a big part of why some spells got changed so much.
In third edition, it's a little better, but still kind of wrong. Basically, they just removed a couple overpowered spell effects but, to put it in L2 terms, still left them with the armor of a tank, 90% of the HP of a tank, the ability to completely recover all their HP in a single difficult-to-interrupt spell, a few spells that would make a melee character incapable of harming them for a time, massive summons, and a series of unresistable damage spells or partially-resistable instant-death spells. They're still sick and wrong, if the player bothers.
And don't get me started on druids. The group I used to game with visibly winced when I showed them an example of play. Concensus was that character probably could have polished off the enemy and his own party, one after the other, with little risk of death...I don't think they want me to ever play one again, actually.
If a D&D melee class lands a single hit on a D&D "healer", the healer must be a grossly incompetent player. No melee should last that long against a moderately-skilled cleric/druid.
Actually, if we're going to go with the D&D analogies, then our "healers" aren't healers at all. They're much closer to the Bard class: their best heals are 1/3 of a tank's HP, variety of buff spells, light armor rather than robes or heavy, low HP, basically no direct-damage spells, etc. L2 doesn't have anything that resembles D&D "healer" classes, because frankly they'd own everything else hands-down.
Stick to L2, at least you seem to have some idea what you're talking about there :p
You proved my point. I said, in a close combat situation with a melee healers don't have a chance. You also omitted totally the idea of magic resistant items/spells that a melee if properly equipped can aid in dismantling any healer easily. A pure melee in D&D do not cast any magic at all. Therefore the only way they really have a chance against healer or mage types is in close combat with buff spells and magic resist items on their equipment, not to mention they have their own system of resist skills that they add to each time they level up.
Evil cleric? lol must have been recently they added this. Sounds like D&D is getting just as desperate. Only alignment that Clerics were ever allowed was "good". Usually "Lawful Good".
You ever PLAY any of the D&D based desktop rpgs? If you do, you know what I'm talking about. A good example is the game: Temple of Elemental Evil.
You also omitted totally the idea of magic resistant items/spells that a melee if properly equipped can aid in dismantling any healer easily.
If you check, they have spells that specifically do not allow Saving Throws and/or bypass Magic Resistance. That's part of the reason they're overpowered. That, and the latest edition gives them simple ways to cast spells at relatively close range without drawing counter-attacks.
Evil cleric? lol must have been recently they added this. Sounds like D&D is getting just as desperate. Only alignment that Clerics were ever allowed was "good". Usually "Lawful Good".
You have got to be kidding me.
You honestly think that clerics are all supposed to be Good, especially Lawful Good? Didn't you ever notice the fact that the Players' Handbook lists a diety for every alignment? That the spell lists specifically have cleric spells with an evil-alignment-only restriction? That the "cleric" section of the book mentions what abilities they have? That the "turn undead" section has a seperate section for "rebuke undead"? That the "alignment" section specifically mentions the option of evil characters? That evil clerics are a commonly-suggested opponent for a good-aligned party?
...need I go on?
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Hopefully, there's at least one other person on these boards who has read the books and/or played the game and is laughing right now...
Hmm...unless you're talking about an edition that's more than 30 years old? I have copies of sourcebooks older than many of the posters on this board that reference the things I'm talking about here...if your entire experience is with the release of D&D that's been totally unavailable for more than 20 years, then I honestly can't say if you're right or wrong. If you're referring to anything since the 80's, though, you're full of crap.
Right right right...you think your heals can out last a gladiator, your lieing or the glad was lvl 40. TSS-2000 Dmg on robes instantly straight into triple slash, an extra 800 damage, whilst the triple slash is in effect we hit 2 focus stones, which then allows us to pull off a DSS for an extra 1000 dmg, thats a 3 hit combo with a total of 3800 on average on a robe class, you heal what, like 1000hp per heal?
1300 when fully buffed thankyouverymuch
and I can do that 3 times in 1 second. I won't survive it forever, sure, but long enough for backup to arrive if there is any. I've never, or mabye once been put down by melees in sieges, its always archers or nukers. you can't 2hit me for that damage either, or you need to be doing 3800 per hit
Let me see, theres an option right where you PvP your own class. It doesnt get much more balanced then that. This however does not happen because of the lack of noblesse. It was intended that support classes such as the healer pvps itself in order to become a hero. But everyone enters the all range because at the moment the population lacks enough noblesse to allow such battles. Alrite?
so you're saying that healers CAN pvp, but only well enough to battle their own class? and you don't think that is a bit shortsighted?
Haha you think im sort of a pvp noob? read again what ive said, unbuffed pvp i can defeat archers, then i went on to say with buffs they defeat me.
I've played since beta aswell, ive never strayed from the path of the melee. I know what im talking about and if you still doubt my words then meet me on Bartz and ill lay your doubts to rest... 6 feet under where all the other clowns who mistook Gladiators for weak noobs lay to rest.
In unbuffed battles gladiators will rip open a new hole into anything that gets into range. In buffed pvp we die to ranged but will still destroy all other melees, which is what our task is, if a gladiator finds himself pvping an archer or nuker on the siege field then he is doing something wrong.
In arena PvP you claim your beloved archer can defeat a glad, i dont think so, you have no room to swing a dead cat let alone keep a gladiator at kiteing distance. Oh and btw some of us gladiators of higher intelligence use a thing called a "shield" this shield yeh guess what it does, listen to this right, it really helps for pvp vs archers, oh and hey guess what, we have stun attack aswell as a newly re-powerd fatal strike. So guess what, archers arnt so high and mighty as you seem to think.
ROFLMAO. That's all I can say to this.
Gladiators have garbage for mdef.. so every root/sleep/slow/entangle/paralyze and whatever other debuff your enemy has lands on you.
Most mages and archers worth thier salt are going to smoke you.
3800 damage.. ROFL.. yeah if the guy is stupid enough to let you get near him.. most aren't. Don't forget that you have enough mp to use that joke of a macro twice and then you are done for the rest of the PvP.
Aww, Bigs, I'm telling Durgy and Rico you said that about us ;)
But you are right, we do have junk M.Def and could really use a little boost there, but who know with some of the implementations in some chronicles...but I digress.
With the new skills post 75, however, I'm curious how well they actually do work in a battle, and would LOVE to know whether they're actually worth the HUGE SP cost of em. (I'm not gonna be worth much till 70+ anyway in pvp ;))
You also omitted totally the idea of magic resistant items/spells that a melee if properly equipped can aid in dismantling any healer easily.
If you check, they have spells that specifically do not allow Saving Throws and/or bypass Magic Resistance. That's part of the reason they're overpowered. That, and the latest edition gives them simple ways to cast spells at relatively close range without drawing counter-attacks.
Evil cleric? lol must have been recently they added this. Sounds like D&D is getting just as desperate. Only alignment that Clerics were ever allowed was "good". Usually "Lawful Good".
You have got to be kidding me.
You honestly think that clerics are all supposed to be Good, especially Lawful Good? Didn't you ever notice the fact that the Players' Handbook lists a diety for every alignment? That the spell lists specifically have cleric spells with an evil-alignment-only restriction? That the "cleric" section of the book mentions what abilities they have? That the "turn undead" section has a seperate section for "rebuke undead"? That the "alignment" section specifically mentions the option of evil characters? That evil clerics are a commonly-suggested opponent for a good-aligned party?
...need I go on?
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Hopefully, there's at least one other person on these boards who has read the books and/or played the game and is laughing right now...
Hmm...unless you're talking about an edition that's more than 30 years old? I have copies of sourcebooks older than many of the posters on this board that reference the things I'm talking about here...if your entire experience is with the release of D&D that's been totally unavailable for more than 20 years, then I honestly can't say if you're right or wrong. If you're referring to anything since the 80's, though, you're full of crap.
Hmm its true I have not played D&D in awhile, since like 15 years ago. Im sure the "books" that they added probably included clerics oriented toward evil deities. But why is it then that in every D&D affiliated desktop rpg I have EVER played (and I've played a couple recently made in the past 5 years, such as Temple of Elemental Evil), a cleric can only be "good" or "lawful good" to be exact? Are you sure when you say evil cleric that you are not meaning something like a necromancer or some other specific evil type healer? The term "cleric" usually refers to the "good" side of the classes.
Haha you think im sort of a pvp noob? read again what ive said, unbuffed pvp i can defeat archers, then i went on to say with buffs they defeat me.
I've played since beta aswell, ive never strayed from the path of the melee. I know what im talking about and if you still doubt my words then meet me on Bartz and ill lay your doubts to rest... 6 feet under where all the other clowns who mistook Gladiators for weak noobs lay to rest.
In unbuffed battles gladiators will rip open a new hole into anything that gets into range. In buffed pvp we die to ranged but will still destroy all other melees, which is what our task is, if a gladiator finds himself pvping an archer or nuker on the siege field then he is doing something wrong.
In arena PvP you claim your beloved archer can defeat a glad, i dont think so, you have no room to swing a dead cat let alone keep a gladiator at kiteing distance. Oh and btw some of us gladiators of higher intelligence use a thing called a "shield" this shield yeh guess what it does, listen to this right, it really helps for pvp vs archers, oh and hey guess what, we have stun attack aswell as a newly re-powerd fatal strike. So guess what, archers arnt so high and mighty as you seem to think.
ROFLMAO. That's all I can say to this.
Gladiators have garbage for mdef.. so every root/sleep/slow/entangle/paralyze and whatever other debuff your enemy has lands on you.
Most mages and archers worth thier salt are going to smoke you.
3800 damage.. ROFL.. yeah if the guy is stupid enough to let you get near him.. most aren't. Don't forget that you have enough mp to use that joke of a macro twice and then you are done for the rest of the PvP.
If you think it's balanced though...
Your stupid..stupid...stupid...stupid...go to Gladiators skill page, theres something known as "LionHeart" Good luck landing sleep/root/para/stun whilst thats in effect. And actually i can do my 3 hit combo 3 times, thats 3 TSS for massive damage, but after the first macro the games over. Mages beat melee i have no problem with that so why are you constantly going on about it? But archer cannot defeat a SMART gladiator. LionHeart + Shield + Blunt + Hammer Crush + Sonic Blaster + Fatal Strike...all perfect moves to take down archers. I can easily close the gap as the archer has to stop mvoing to fire, he will get 2-3 shots in before i get to him, even if he moves after each shot, the only chance an archer has is if freezing strike or entangle lands. & the best bit about blunt and shield set up is people mistake me for a DA or paladin on the siege field, i get targetted last, i have plenty of time to get to my targets stun them then hit on my duals so i can eat people alive.
Necros at end game got nerfed if anything, so your the noob!
Ripo stance > you. Necro thinks he's cool gunna para me but wait its reflect, oh noes what you gunna do !?
Haha you think im sort of a pvp noob? read again what ive said, unbuffed pvp i can defeat archers, then i went on to say with buffs they defeat me.
I've played since beta aswell, ive never strayed from the path of the melee. I know what im talking about and if you still doubt my words then meet me on Bartz and ill lay your doubts to rest... 6 feet under where all the other clowns who mistook Gladiators for weak noobs lay to rest.
In unbuffed battles gladiators will rip open a new hole into anything that gets into range. In buffed pvp we die to ranged but will still destroy all other melees, which is what our task is, if a gladiator finds himself pvping an archer or nuker on the siege field then he is doing something wrong.
In arena PvP you claim your beloved archer can defeat a glad, i dont think so, you have no room to swing a dead cat let alone keep a gladiator at kiteing distance. Oh and btw some of us gladiators of higher intelligence use a thing called a "shield" this shield yeh guess what it does, listen to this right, it really helps for pvp vs archers, oh and hey guess what, we have stun attack aswell as a newly re-powerd fatal strike. So guess what, archers arnt so high and mighty as you seem to think.
Grats on being good at unbuffed battles. Do you ask your opponents to please remove their buffs before you fight them?
BTW, you have 0 chance of beating any nuker without buffs, with and without your lionheart up.
Aww, Bigs, I'm telling Durgy and Rico you said that about us ;)
But you are right, we do have junk M.Def and could really use a little boost there, but who know with some of the implementations in some chronicles...but I digress.
With the new skills post 75, however, I'm curious how well they actually do work in a battle, and would LOVE to know whether they're actually worth the HUGE SP cost of em. (I'm not gonna be worth much till 70+ anyway in pvp ;))
That skill uses 50 HP of your HP per shot. Even if you you're never hit in a battle, you've just lost 2k HP due to a crappy skill. Did they really need to make this level 78 skill use 50 HP? God forbid they give glads/tyrants something strong for once. hahahaha
Lol no, go to fan art section, i posted an olympiad fight which will shut you up, its a fair fight duelist VS what ever the 3rd class SH is, he did win, but by 200hp, 1 more shot and i would have won though. I dont care if i lose to mages i have never expressed how melee should beat them, because they should, doesnt mean its impossible, just because you have given up doesnt mean some of us more "experianced" players have. Also removing buffs from your foe is hardly a difficult task, ever heard of cancel? Alot of people use that in mas pvp and guess what, it works.
Also if you think that fight is a 1 off i have plenty more, where blessed shots were allowed and the results wernt any different. 1v1 and mass pvp, gladiators are an asset, we are good whether you agree or not.
Right right right...you think your heals can out last a gladiator, your lieing or the glad was lvl 40. TSS-2000 Dmg on robes instantly straight into triple slash, an extra 800 damage, whilst the triple slash is in effect we hit 2 focus stones, which then allows us to pull off a DSS for an extra 1000 dmg, thats a 3 hit combo with a total of 3800 on average on a robe class, you heal what, like 1000hp per heal? Not to mention the gladiator can by now choose to either hit another 2 stones and launch a blaster, or wait for the re-use timer and smack you in the face with another 3hit combo. In the mean time we can hit hard and fast which is more then likely going to cancel some of those heals. Saying you can sustain yourself against constant melee damage, especially from a Gladiator is foolish.
1. If the healer stands there as you do your TSS, hes dumb
2. I can outheal an SH dmg, including crits in a 1v1 situation, what makes you think I cant outheal you.
3. Arena only, I have owned gladiators within 10 levels of me in A grade. (not a brag, just a point in many here)
4. 1k Heals was i think lvl 66 unbuffed.
5. I guarantee your mp runs out before mine does.
6. Why in god's name would you pick on the healer :mad:
Basically you are saying a smart player can beat a dumb player regardless of class, which you are correct. Sometimes you can just visibly see the difference in PVP with bought items rather than earned.
Erm the thing is Gladiators arnt MP dependant, so your bishop is gunna die regardless, whats to stop me stunning you anyway so you cant save yourself?
Tbh i really cannot see how a bishop can beat a Gladiator who is, a whole grade and 10 levels higher, was the gladiator naked and afk?
No, and he was so ****** he logged. I will not divulge my PVP secrets, nor am I saying I can beat every gladiator as I am just a healer. I am simply stating you would not kill me with your skill set as simply as you posted. Maybe an SE as they have lower con, but not a Bishop.
2600 Con
4600 HP (before we argue about con)
EDIT: To the op, I apologize, somewhere along the way I missed the point of the post and the first 15 pages.
If healers are so 1337 at pvp why are you all moaning about olympiad and such. The only way i can see a bishop ever beating a gladiator, is if the glad is out of mp, rooted and has no bow. I always carry a bow with me, if for the very rare reason i get rooted, which hardly happens due to my NM heavy armour and lionheart.
Erm the thing is Gladiators arnt MP dependant, so your bishop is gunna die regardless, whats to stop me stunning you anyway so you cant save yourself?
Tbh i really cannot see how a bishop can beat a Gladiator who is, a whole grade and 10 levels higher, was the gladiator naked and afk?
Now I know you have no clue what you're talking about. Gladitors aren't MP dependent? You couldn't be further from the truth. Anyone that PVPs knows a melee isn't going to be hitting anyone other than another useless melee with their regular sword swing attacks. We also know that Gladiator and Tyrant specials use a lot of MP, going through almost their entire MP to kill one player.
Really man, do you even play a Gladiator in PVP? Who exactly are you fighting that lets you wail on them with your swords? You're the slowest class in the game, the easiest to slow even more, and easy as pie to walk away from your regular attacks. Anyone standing in front of you, letting them beat on you has no clue about PVP.
Are you sure when you say evil cleric that you are not meaning something like a necromancer or some other specific evil type healer? The term "cleric" usually refers to the "good" side of the classes.
If "cleric" wasn't always a generic "divine spellcaster who directly serves a diety", then it was changed to that in the second edition, which came out in the 80's. Since then, every suppliment, campaign, and the two new editions of the the core books have used it in the manner I describe.
I think the words have changed since you played..."necromancer" is now more of a wizard than an evil healer...time flies, huh?
Maybe your misconception about "healers" come from a lack of experience with the healers of the 80's/90's and now. They've changed a lot, and that is what the vast majority of the playerbase learned to game with--healers who weren't little HP batteries, but could actually do some damage!
2. I can outheal an SH dmg, including crits in a 1v1 situation, what makes you think I cant outheal you.
How do you outheal silence?
As for Gladiator pvp rofl again. Any archer that lets you hit him with more than ranged attacks is confused how to play his class. Same goes for a nuker. Slow. Shoot once, run back to 900 range, shoot, run back to 900 range, shoot, rinse repeat until dead gladiator. The only archer you could catch up to is a hawkeye, and yes, blunt/shield gladiator will beat a hawkeye. A SR will just keep running and shooting and in 5 mins you will be dead doing little or no damage to him.
Frankly this is typical Bartz noob pvp discussion. Newsflash, there's more experience than the kind you develop in game.
2. I can outheal an SH dmg, including crits in a 1v1 situation, what makes you think I cant outheal you.
How do you outheal silence?
As for Gladiator pvp rofl again. Any archer that lets you hit him with more than ranged attacks is confused how to play his class. Same goes for a nuker. Slow. Shoot once, run back to 900 range, shoot, run back to 900 range, shoot, rinse repeat until dead gladiator. The only archer you could catch up to is a hawkeye, and yes, blunt/shield gladiator will beat a hawkeye. A SR will just keep running and shooting and in 5 mins you will be dead doing little or no damage to him.
Frankly this is typical Bartz noob pvp discussion. Newsflash, there's more experience than the kind you develop in game.
There is one dying hope for gladitor, and I guess Tyrants and Dwarfs. Their skill riposte stance has a chance to reflect debuffs back at the caster, but here's the catch, riposte lowers your move speed to a turtle. A dumb caster might use slow on these super slow riposte users, getting it reflected back at them.
A wise caster would see the glad/tyrant/dwarf moving like a turtle and nuke them to death in 2 seconds.
Did they really have to make riposte stance lower the move speed? You would think they would have thought of this.
Lolz ripo stance doesnt lower your speed by much at all, it drops it by like 10, which is painfull, but in the right tats and armour it doesnt matter. The disadvantage of ripo stance is the nerf in ATK speed, it basically removes the effect of haste2...But then atk speed isnt important unless im charging focus.
Also when i said glads are not MP dependant that was in reference to the bishop saying he could out last me, which makes no sense as i can deal damage without using MP. There are only 3 archers right, the only one of the 3 which prevents a threat to me is a SR, because entangle has a good but not a constant land rate. PR's lightning strike very rarely lands and most the time they nerf the crap outs their CON in favour of STR/DEX, which means one hella easy archer to stun or out last and fight off at range. HE has no slow skill untill 3rd class and has a low natural speed so they are very easy for me to beat, unless they hit dash and run away.
As i said, most archers nerf their CON in favour of STR and DEX, which means i have an easier time killing them, they will all have maj light on, which helps them in the res stun department, but i still have a chance for it to land, so long as i get just 1 stun to land, then i can brake out the duals and win without doubt. If it doesnt land then i just have to slowly defeat them, which isnt hard as my HP/CP is far superior to theirs.