I know not many people will agree with me... but I was wondering if not the root of all "imbalance" between DD and not-so-DD classes could be the existance of soulshots, spiritshots and even more so the blessed kind.
I know we are all addicted to them... and unfortunately they seem to be somewhat necessary to level (although the farmers never use them? o_O), but lets look at what they actually do. First the simple example.
A soulshot doubles the damage over time. Different weapon types use different ammounts of shouts, but lets look at the monetary aspect later... for now the double damage simply means that classes able to deal 1000 more damage every 3 seconds are able to do 2000 more damage every 3 seconds, compared to less DD oriented classes.
The Devs saw that problem and reacted while designing spiritshots... as they don't increase damage by 100% but far less. So nukers wouldn't completely outdamge non-magic classes. The blessed spiritshots were introduced... not only raising the damage bonus to 100%, but also increasing casting speed, resulting in a total damage-over-time multiplicator which is far higher than the multiplier for physical classes, quite the opposite of the original design idea.
Now one could say that all this balances out in cost. A bow uses 8 soulshots while a sword uses only 2. However I bet that you have noticed that all players are forced to spam shots, not only by the game mechanics to reach a reasonable speed, but even more by their fellow players... which causes that most players even lose money while hunting!
I can see the idea behind shots... if there are too many items/money on the market, they are used to make shots and people can level faster. However this system is totally out of balance, since people want to level fast at all costs, no matter how much money they actually have. Hello ebay.
So... what do you all think?
Not to mention that all those flashy flashes hurt my eyes... and before auto-shot-spam it was a huge nuisance to spam. ;)
Shots of any kind are indeed the root to all evil. I am certain they were never supposed to be spammed at all times. They were meant to be used in occasions where the brown sticky matter hits the rotary air mover.
Now everybody HAS to use them all of the time or be kicked out of parties or be unable to solo. But this game was never intended to be soloable for any class! So now everybody is forced to use them, it is hard to pay for them and get enough money to buy upgrades for your gear. So what happens? People ebay. Not only for gear but also to pay for their soualshots.
Honestly, I'm not sure where you were going with this, because you wander all over the place in your original post. Somehow, you cover "DD and not-so-DD", nukers vs physical, and the high cost of SS spam.
Given that I haven't seen a problem with any of those, as you describe them, I'm going to have to sum up my thoughts with
Considering how few most players know about the world of dwarves, let me explain to you:
All shots are made from Crystals (shattered items) and ore (trades for adena). So every time you charge a soulshot you remove an animal bone, a varnish or a nugget of iron ore from the system. What do you think would happen if all those mats would be available on the market instead of being blown into the air? Right, more equipment available, easier for the single player to get some.
And yes I'm covering a lot of topics here... thats because I think that shots, as a vital part of the game, affect all of them. DD/tank balance, ranged/melee balance, possibility to solo, abilities of players to get equipment, ability to gain XP.
Because guess what... all of that involves players using their weapon insteads of their brains most of the time. :p
You're welcome to point out where I might have made a mistake in my obsevation. If you understand what I'm talking about. :p
If you HAVE to ebay to afford soul shots and your Gear, you and I must be playing completely different games(or have completely different playstyles).
I maintain about 5 mil cash at all times, I spam SS regardless of what Im doing(even in the arena or goofing off with clannies). I tend to burn through 8-10k SSB a night. Somehow I always have enough money to carry on.
The root of all evil is the advent of the power party if you ask me. The party where you forsake everything else for high XP gain. The more casual a party is, the better money it seems to make. For example, we love the rift dimension in my clan. The first couple times we went in, we set up the party just to take out the raid boss inside. There was little or no money made doing it that way. Now, we take in the people we would normally take hunting, and we make bank off it. Bounty Hunters are a KEY(double meaning here when discussing the rift) source of income for a shot spamming party. I can spoil an amazing number of things that will make each individual party member money. If my spoils dont add up to 1m in a night, its because Im not in the party. On average, the spoils in a single night for us will end up in the 5m+ range(Majestic jewlery recipes = $$$). I believe firmly in having a BH in party, not just because I play one, but because of the benefit they provide in terms of moneymaking in the current SS Spamming Culture.
I honestly do believe that the root of all evil is the inability for the powergamer to stop for 5 minutes, relax and enjoy the game. Even the casual gamer falls into this trap. There is a difference between hunting for XP and hunting for money, the two goals are generally not going to mesh in this game.
The general laziness of people comes into play also. Most people I know craft thier gear. Even the cheap pieces, because as we say "its even MORE cheap to craft it yourself!". But there are a TON of people that never craft a thing. They cant be bothered to take the time to put together materials, recipes and parts. They cant take the time to take a Scav to 25ish, and spoil 90% of the base mats they need. They cant see that living in catacombs is a BAD THING for thier money making situation(SealStones do NOT equal money, no matter what you tell me).
Many people right now are floundering because the moneymaking quests of C3 have dried up. Infernium is worthless now(down from 20k to 6k or less on Lionna). The Snake Scale quest for FG is less useful as there are MANY places to get the recipes from spoil or drop. The only quests left at the 60ish range for money are the Giants Cave quests, DVC quests and TOI quests. These are all party quests with potential for worthless rewards(The only point in crafting a NM/Maj robe is to save about 3m, and many people wont bother since its 60%).
Fishing can make you money I suppose, but its not somthing most people enjoy doing for some reason.
Im not willing to pay 45-60m for an Elysian I cant get a Soul Crystal for, so I'll craft it, I failed once already, no biggie, I'll try again.
There are quite a few more reasons than SS for people being broke. Lack of intelligence and gumption seem to be the major causes.
Duh! Of course I know where crystals and soul/spirit ore comes from, I have in all likelyhood done more crafting than you have.
I just don't at all agree with your conclusion that it somehow makes the needed gear cheaper or easier to get, not to mention it would seriously devalue crystals, which would have a negative economic impact on players.
Also, using shots = up to twice as many materials and drops entering the system from those players over time.
Soulshots are necessary and I'm sure they are intended to be used as much or as little as people see fit. That's why they are optional and why we don't automatically do that much damage without anything external.
The real genius behind Soulshots is in the economy, you have a system which recycles everything and keeps adena flowing all around between everyone. Even if you craft everything from stuff you farm, you are still a part of the economy because of Soulshots.
LordChaos makes a good point which you almost touch on. Farmers don't use Soulshots and the reasons is they have infinite time.
If you could spend 24 hours a day 7 days a week non stop hunting you may as well not use any Soulshots.
What were the first level 78's on all servers? They weren't BSpS spamming nukers who have 2boxed SE's, or Soulshot spamming archers with an out of party Prophet. They were of course, botted farmers who don't use Soulshots at all.
If your time is infinite and human needs are not applicable to you (automated characters) then Soulshots don't make a lot of sense unless in PvP.
If your time is limited and you can only hunt a few hours a night, even 8hours a night, Soulshots become essential tools. Because you can spam for those 8hours getting XP as fast as you can for your limited playtime. Make a store overnight/day while you aren't playing and hopefully make profit that way which funds your Soulshot usage while you are actually playing.
I can't imagine how horrible this game would be to level if there were no shots of any kind at all.
Oh and BSpS were needed because if you played a nuker back then, you'd have understood how awful it was to hunt as one. More time was spent sitting regenning than anything else and most mobs took 2-3 more hits to kill than they do now. Without Sleep until C1, nukers had a very rough time without BSpS. Not to mention that BSpS dramatically helped to close the gap between archers and nukers, which was again very necessary.
It is an Illusion LC. Look at it this way, a 9 man party has to rotate through seal stone drops. You have a 1 in 9 chance of getting that pile of 1k Green stones, and your turn could be "wasted" by any material or spellbook drop. If you go to a place where the mobs drop 9k+ adena, you make MORE money over that time than you ever will in a catacomb, even selling your stones/AA. Its simply because seal stones are not split amongst the party like adena is that the catacombs are NOT solid money makers. Now, if your party/clan agrees to collect all stones in the end and fair share them, it CAN be profitable, but that ties in to the laziness point, and adds our next point GREED. Most party members at the end just want to go, setup shop and go to bed. Not sit and muck around with sharing out things. Most parties will also include that one lucksack that got 100k Green stones while everyone else got 50k, and he wont want to give that up to split evenly, and then you end up not splitting anything.
Seal Stones in general are just ugly. Red stones are worthless because of the tiny quantity that drops compared to greens. 50-60 red stones, 900-1200 greens. Where in there is this ever going to come out equal? It wont. I just cant find a reason to hunt in catacombs.
If shots weren't in the game, there would be major adjustments need to be made or...
Leveling speed will be reduced to 75% of what it is now for non/casters. For casters it will be reduced by 50% or maybe even 60% for some and groups would be the only way to go.
Nonbuyable items will go through the roof in prices, not as many drops and more adena on the market is going to make Nightmare Helmet and co go up past 200-300m. Because of supply and demand, RaidBosses need double the players, Epic bosses impossible unless you have alot of players, all drops and quest items drop half as frequently.
So no shots? gonna have to wait until L3 to see something like this because it would mean a whole new game altogether, it's the lifeblood of L2.
Of course adjustments would have to be made... and I agree that shots wrk great in their function as item and money recyclers. That was never the questions.
However I think that shots are too strong and have too much impact on the gameplay. I'm no game designer and even if I'd be it would blast the frame to explain everything in detail... but lets say ALL base damage is boosted by 50% and the boost from shots is reduced accordingly. Leveling without shots would be easier and the difference between spamming and not-spamming players would be smaller, so less parties would demand it.
And I agree that a bounty hunter in party always guarantees a nice profit even when everyone spams shots... an tell you first hand. ;)
If a soulshot doubles damage, it doubles kill rate (lets take this as approx true). This generates more items. Crystals generally come from useless item sources. Things that no longer hold value because they have been.. "out teched." These are the mid jewelry grades, low duals (revolution*revolution), etc. Those items aren't forcing the removal of basic mats from the system, so I think that logic is broken.
Shots or lack there of would TOTALLY harm nukers harder than melee Vent. Imagine failing most sleeps. Think about what you, as a nuker hunt to solo. Without shots that level will need to drop dramatically. The same goes for melee. With VR and crits many melee classes could still solo light blue mobs non-stop. A nuker will not be able to do so. Increased mana costs for killing/sleeping, failed spells, etc etc. It would change the game greatly.
I have never had trouble making money while hunting. You choose mobs to hunt that you kill efficiently and have decent drops. You take all those crappy parts, and instead of npcing them all the time, you sell them to players or craft. You want to know the SIMPLE way to find players that cheat to get adena? Look for players in B or A-grade that NEVER bother to put up shops unless rerolling, or selling items of personal equipment ONLY when they are done with them. Those are the people cheating.
As for ss in pvp, I think they change things bigtime. Why else would they deny blessed in the olympiad? Spell failure should be calculated off the initial matk, then the damage dealt increased by a % multiplier. Nukers should fail spells on players, especially those with the highest mdef. The dd classes still weigh out for one reason I discussed in the paper/rock/scissors discussion: speed.
My tank will beat a hawkeye 1v1 with ease. He will be lucky to get much into my hp. The problem comes that it will take me 90 seconds to do so. If a class is going to be a "counter" class, it needs to kill at the same rate as any comparable "counter." If archers kill nukers in 10 seconds, tanks should kill archers the same (assuming that's your comparable counter). Until you balance out that issue, it won't matter who counters what. If you can clear 50% of the enemy in 10 seconds with class specific counters, it no longer matters what unit types you have left. You now have a numerical advantage that beats back the class differences. This is what makes nukers so powerful.
This is typical of many "late-game" RTS strategies. Fast killing units and a few specific counters are all that matters. You break the numerical odds of your enemy before class specific counters come into play. In the end, a lot of classes would have to lose a LOT of hp to balance this out. We're talking no cp for ranged dd's. Maybe even worse since nukers get to pickup tatoos.
That is how you "balance" pvp but NCsoft has no interest, past or present, in that level of balancing. It happened in Lineage, it will be the same way here. Late game, high developed chars will always tend to kill rate rather than efficiency in pvp. This means, killing faster with more weaknesses still leaves you ahead...because you out balance the "nerfs" by dropping enemy numbers fast.
Luke, that's a really good post you have there.
The continually increasing references to balancing L2 similar to a RTS game have me concerned, but that's probably the topic of another thread :eek:
The true root of all evil in this game is that it is developed for the Korean mindset, not the American mindset. The inability for NCNA to change the game into somthing that suits the population that plays the game makes for a game that is twisted and unhealthy.
Lineage2 lost all if its ability to become a healthy game, practically the minute it left Closed Beta. From the first day this game hit Open Beta, there were farmers(remember, Lineage was live in Korea and possibly other territories before it came here). The 3rd party software they needed was available from the start, and the farmers were here in droves. The concept of Lineage' economic system is practically a farmers wet dream. The only effective method of getting ahead in this game IS to farm. Be it by legal means, or illegal means, gaining enough of anything to Craft or Sell for profit requires that you farm.
From Beta till the beginning of C3, material prices maintained a semi normal rate, thus allowing for a stable market. With C3 came the manor system, and a lowering of material drops and spoils, along with Spoil Share. The manor system reduced the need for players to have Scavs or BHs. Spoil Share reduced the desire of players to PLAY Scavs/BHs. The lowering of Material drops was meant to reinforce the manor systems viability. This MAY have worked out in Korea and other asian territories, as thier work ethic has always been above and beyond what Americans are purported to have.
We, as Americans(especially the youth culture this game attracts) see any little bump in the road(IE: Farmers controlling certain seeds) and decide that it is not worth the effort. They look at the manor system, and see a confusing and fairly specialized setup that takes effort and thought to take advantage of, and choose an easier path.
The original manor system was easier on people, as you would recieve more than one material for a given seed, which made people feel that they were recieving a "good" reward.
Add in that, on most servers, the politics tend to leave one group in power for long periods of time(from what I can tell, this is not the case on Korean servers). This gives you a subset of players that has several large advantages over the rest. Castle Owning clans and alliances make more money over time with thier manor systems, taxes and power(IE: Locking down hunting areas) than non castle owning Clan/Allys. This leaves those in power with more disposable cash to play around with, thus reducing thier need to Ebay(this is my personal feelings, wether it is true or not overall is not clear to me). This effect makes non castle owning clans and alliances, who want to attempt to take power from the grasp of those currently IN power, or just to fight them on an even playing field, feel the need to "keep up" by ebaying, 3rd party usage, or other "illegal" methods, as they are cut off from the large income generating sections of the game.
Ideally, over time this would balance itself out as players leave the game, but with account selling, sharing, and such, this does not happen. How many 70+ characters have you known that just disapear? Not the player of the character, that happens frequently, I mean the actual toon. Selling the 70+ character is the norm, letting it die off is abnormal(The theory being, I put in money and effort into this character, I want somthing back for it now).
All of these "small" effects add up into the larger problem, sustaining it, and pushing it to newer and worse heights. Sadly, this cannot be fixed in Lineage2, it is too well entrenched. Here's hoping that Lineage3 finds a compromise that will alleviate the situation.
If anyone wants me to post some of the constructive comments on how to fix this, I will, but this post is lengthy, and most of the constructive stuff is common sense.
I know not many people will agree with me... but I was wondering if not the root of all "imbalance" between DD and not-so-DD classes could be the existance of soulshots, spiritshots and even more so the blessed kind.
I disagree. Even the designers can see the imbalance. Level 70+ melee mob uses A grade sword. Level 70+ nuker mob uses top D or top NG staff. Nuff said.
Don't believe me? See the mobs in the Rune region.
I disagree. Even the designers can see the imbalance. Level 70+ melee mob uses A grade sword. Level 70+ nuker mob uses top D or top NG staff. Nuff said.
Don't believe me? See the mobs in the Rune region.
Two things I'd like to point out, here.
1) The graphic you see for the monsters' weapons has little, if any, bearing on their final stats. Remember, the stats are all what the developers coded them to be, regardless of the weapon.
2) A mage's weapon is there primarily for the SA, the MAtk of it has a very small bearing on damage when compared to Power, which is level-based.
I disagree. Even the designers can see the imbalance. Level 70+ melee mob uses A grade sword. Level 70+ nuker mob uses top D or top NG staff. Nuff said.
Don't believe me? See the mobs in the Rune region.
Two things I'd like to point out, here.
1) The graphic you see for the monsters' weapons has little, if any, bearing on their final stats. Remember, the stats are all what the developers coded them to be, regardless of the weapon.
2) A mage's weapon is there primarily for the SA, the MAtk of it has a very small bearing on damage when compared to Power, which is level-based.
You are generally going to have different hunting methods and places in regards to where you're going.
I've made alot of money down there hunting, both in drops, outright money and sealstones.
Also about the sharing, I've found that over longer time it evens out, some days you get less, some days more. (but of course, I usually keep 100% of the cat/necro drops)
Also, you forget that if you need AA, buying it with regular adena is going to set you back *alot* of money.
You really think not using shots makes that much of a difference considering how much gear actually costs?
You have to consider money over time and drops over time.
Over infinite time, using no shots is more profitable, over limited time, its a different story.
Well, if you consider that I like to have some gear one day that is suitable for my level it is a problem yes (for me).
Because the manor system is not workable fore any non American and dont work half of the time because of the farmers and the fact that I cannot do the efficient trade thing because I cant have my pc running all the time I am severely handicapped to get money.
In fact I need to rely on drops (I love BH's). With spamming soulshots I am spending more then the adana drops from the mobs give me. So my only source of income is mat drop/spoils and the occasional quest reward. With the current inflated prices, I have no hope of ever getting my A gear without a lot of help. Notice that I am not even thinking about ever owning a piece of S-grade gear.
Would having me not spend money on shots help? You bet. Then I would have income from both adana drops and mat drops.
In this I am not the only player. I remember a brief period on Bartz where I joined a clan that matter of factly just ebayed to get their gear AND soulshots. I left the clan soon as I couldn't stomach this. But I am convinced that a majority of the people ebay just to be able to level (fast). Spamming SS is thus a major contribution to the whole farmer problem.
If a soulshot doubles damage, it doubles kill rate (lets take this as approx true). This generates more items. Crystals generally come from useless item sources. Things that no longer hold value because they have been.. "out teched." These are the mid jewelry grades, low duals (revolution*revolution), etc. Those items aren't forcing the removal of basic mats from the system, so I think that logic is broken.
Shots or lack there of would TOTALLY harm nukers harder than melee Vent. Imagine failing most sleeps. Think about what you, as a nuker hunt to solo. Without shots that level will need to drop dramatically. The same goes for melee. With VR and crits many melee classes could still solo light blue mobs non-stop. A nuker will not be able to do so. Increased mana costs for killing/sleeping, failed spells, etc etc. It would change the game greatly.
I have never had trouble making money while hunting. You choose mobs to hunt that you kill efficiently and have decent drops. You take all those crappy parts, and instead of npcing them all the time, you sell them to players or craft. You want to know the SIMPLE way to find players that cheat to get adena? Look for players in B or A-grade that NEVER bother to put up shops unless rerolling, or selling items of personal equipment ONLY when they are done with them. Those are the people cheating.
As for ss in pvp, I think they change things bigtime. Why else would they deny blessed in the olympiad? Spell failure should be calculated off the initial matk, then the damage dealt increased by a % multiplier. Nukers should fail spells on players, especially those with the highest mdef. The dd classes still weigh out for one reason I discussed in the paper/rock/scissors discussion: speed.
My tank will beat a hawkeye 1v1 with ease. He will be lucky to get much into my hp. The problem comes that it will take me 90 seconds to do so. If a class is going to be a "counter" class, it needs to kill at the same rate as any comparable "counter." If archers kill nukers in 10 seconds, tanks should kill archers the same (assuming that's your comparable counter). Until you balance out that issue, it won't matter who counters what. If you can clear 50% of the enemy in 10 seconds with class specific counters, it no longer matters what unit types you have left. You now have a numerical advantage that beats back the class differences. This is what makes nukers so powerful.
This is typical of many "late-game" RTS strategies. Fast killing units and a few specific counters are all that matters. You break the numerical odds of your enemy before class specific counters come into play. In the end, a lot of classes would have to lose a LOT of hp to balance this out. We're talking no cp for ranged dd's. Maybe even worse since nukers get to pickup tatoos.
That is how you "balance" pvp but NCsoft has no interest, past or present, in that level of balancing. It happened in Lineage, it will be the same way here. Late game, high developed chars will always tend to kill rate rather than efficiency in pvp. This means, killing faster with more weaknesses still leaves you ahead...because you out balance the "nerfs" by dropping enemy numbers fast.
i would see from this standpoint of having SS/SPS have no effect on player characters and are only a PvE element. In a sense that should balance things as for the 4x M.Atk. But such would be hard, because SPS would effect the player casting themselves with the cast speed bonus. But it's a lost cause for the game, a system which could of been brilliant was gobbled up as a "farmers wet dream".
Now one could say that all this balances out in cost. A bow uses 8 soulshots while a sword uses only 2.
hope you notice A grade bows use 1 ss and do 1k+ damage
A grade swords use 1 ss and do 200 damage
numbers might not be exact but you get my point
remove SS and you sure as hell wont get pvp balance
you'll live in a world where ws's can beat mages and archers would run out of mp before they took us down
if you ask me the best class in a fully ss free world would be a summoner
combine bishop like heals with high damage output and hardly any mana problems and they could pwn anyone
Occasionally, I take my clannies out to what I call the "No Use of SS Unless it's an Emergency" money hunt. Mind, the best set up for this is a Sorc, a SE, a BH, for basic starters. A proph is a welcome addition as a backup healer/buffer, which frees the SE up for recharges. Then we go out, and hunt group mobs.
The BH (usually me, as I dual box) goes and uses Spoil Festival on the mobs, then runs back to the sorc, who uses sleeping cloud on the lot. The one mob who doesn't sleep is the first to die (through a variety of means, you choose). It dies, glows blue, drops loot, Sorc uses Corpse Life Drain on the mob to regain HP. When needed, the SE rebuffs, and recharges. Sometimes I have him attack too, but I usually just have him parked somewhere where he doesn't get aggroed on.
This means everything obtained is profit. Of course, it's not easy, and everyone has to do their part, but with at least a minimum of 4-5 players, over a five hour span, it's possible to come out of it with profit.
> not only raising the damage bonus to 100%, but also increasing casting speed
I'd say normal spiritshots ALSO increase casting speed as well (logical) - it's just not very noticable because it's a much smaller increase due to the maths. It is, however, pretty obvious if you test it out with a really slow casting class at a low level before any bonuses, passives or stuff, using say - noob spiritshots.