useing the kesh*kesh i actually had higher damage per second than when i used the meteor shower
about the only thing a blunt has going for it is high accuracy
(+4 accuracy on the blunt)
the blunt has a slightly higher crit rate (even though it has focus) but when the duels crit they do more damage.
imagine if the duels had an sa O.O
so am i to understand that even when you have 43 lvls of blunt mastery duels are still the better option?
at what point should dwarves start useing blunts? about lvl 80ish?
That's just how it is.. also go figure why an orc will always have a better Patk with a bown than any archer in game...
But it shouldn't be a surprise to you to know the balance guy is on a retirement plan and has not been replaced.
The blunt however has some uses.
I mostly trio my WS with a BH and an SE.
At first I was using my +7 dual sls and the BH a +4 ABOA health. That was stupid and fortunately we figured it fast.
We traded weapons.
Now I'm a WS with aobo and shield and he's the BH with the +7.
Since then we didn't have any downtime again.
I use Hammer Crush as opener in fight. Then he spoils and he doesn't get back the aggro. Important point here.
So I tank and am in +12 BW heavy with shield.
He's in zubei.
We both maximise our MP use and play our role to its full extent. I tank he DD.
The SE recharge us both... and stay about full MP.
We all are lvl around lvl 60.
useing the kesh*kesh i actually had higher damage per second than when i used the meteor shower
sorry, but i doubt it..
your attack speed is like 12% higher with the meteor shower, your crit is higher (and accuracy too), and your P.attk is only 2.5% less !...
so you might just have been unlucky on your damage while testing it.
Also your weapon is only one handed with let you use a shield... no way duals can be compared to a good blunt like meteor.
I 'm looking for a OE meteor, and i think i'll stick to this weapon to the end.
Sorry but you forgot something there nameless1, you forgot the 15% or so atk speed difference in your calculation, so yeah sorry the duals give less damage then the crit blunt.
On other hand, if you truly want to see a difference, fix dual with +++ crit.
Sorry but you forgot something there nameless1, you forgot the 15% or so atk speed difference in your calculation, so yeah sorry the duals give less damage then the crit blunt.
just came back to note that actually
its a 15% difference in attack speed but keep in mind the sa on those duels is haste (8%) if you could ignore the +4 thats needed to add the sa i still stick to my beleif that the duels have more dps
regardless of the fact that after a 5 hour trial i came out with more adena and xp useing the duels than the blunt
dont forget the blunt is sa'd!!!
say my time trial was wrong and the blunt is actually more effective, is it better by much?
so after 70+ lvls of blunt mastery a set of duels when you have 3 lvls of weapon mastery is slightly less effective than an sa'd blunt?
loseing out on the shield doesnt actually do much
remeber dwarves dont get shield masteries so a 1 in 40 block or a 1 in 1000 excellent sheild defence doesnt make up for the extra time it takes to kill a mob
not to mention the increase in evasion which might actually end up being less damage taken
You do realise that the duals crits should hurt for less? Only 1 of the swords will crit giving you half a critical hit, eg the 1 sword would crit for 500 where as the blunt crits for 1k. However with duals ur hitting twice, so your crit rate is doubled possibly? But then duals do tend to miss alot as you have to rely on both swords connecting to the target in order to give out full damage. I would have thought for a dorf a two hander would be better then duals.
I would have thought for a dorf a two hander would be better then duals.
yeah if i could do an equal lvl test with a dragon slayer i would
my guess is the result would be even more scary
with the duels i crit mobs for about 300-500 damage
with the blunt i crit for about 400-900
as for accuracy ive never been too impressed with blunts
i always solo green mobs so i dont miss much anyway but even with guidance its not like im close to 100% accuracy
as far as i can figure you can ignore attack speed and accuracy all that matters is when you do connect you do large amounts of damage
kinda like how a dagger can drop a tank if they could actually land all their specials :P
I'm a WC and I gave up blunts long ago.... They really have no good use. Stun is like a 30% success skill. Waste of MP. Duals put out 2X the damage and crit for the same damage as my blunt.
I'm sorry but the OP is right, no duals don't hit for 50% damage. It's more like 65%. DPS on duals is much higher especially focused. With soul cry I can pump out some nasty damage. Especially with my +4 str tatoo.
You do realise that the duals crits should hurt for less? Only 1 of the swords will crit giving you half a critical hit, eg the 1 sword would crit for 500 where as the blunt crits for 1k. However with duals ur hitting twice, so your crit rate is doubled possibly? But then duals do tend to miss alot as you have to rely on both swords connecting to the target in order to give out full damage. I would have thought for a dorf a two hander would be better then duals.
You also do realise that if the P.atk is the same and the crit rate on duals and 2 handed, the atk speed is also the same btw, you realise that both deal teh same damage. Becose sure you crit for 1k on the one handed and 2x 500 with the duals becose yeah each blade have the same chanse to crit.
Also about misses, 2 handed sword vs duals have the same accurezy, missing with both is 100% the same.
Plus really in need to say as the posts abow, I barly miss with my dwarf at all and I deal soooo much more damage with teh setup abow then I wuld ever do with an AOBA.
When I used duals on my BH, the DPS was far greather than when I was using a blunt.
Only advantage with the blunt was shield which sometimes might block a hit. Killrate with the duals was better and faster. I like duals, except Dwarfs look so retarted carrying Duals :mad:
Ok to solve the mystery, why do I have the same p.att with duals as with blunt when I have no masteries?
Well this question was answered in a blunt vs. duals debate for D grade all most 2 years ago. You don't just gain p.att from masteries and from the weapons p.att. You gain p.att at a set rate per your class every time you level.
Simple answer is, you gain 2X the p.att per level from duals as you do 1h weapons. This means even with no masteries, most classes will do as well with duals. Just no skills.
For healer classes with weapons mastery and dual users, we get the benefit of the extra p.att per level and masteries. Making duals a superior weapon.
Thers an P.def modifier, it increse with 1% per time you lv, that apply to P.def, M.def P.atk, M.atk
Also why you have more P.atk with duals is becose it have higher P.atk in general, but it also got lower atk speed. But the entire point being, the crit rate is sooo much higher, thats why your beter of using eg duals IF your buffed, if your not buffed your beter off with blunt.
My Dwarf went from 40>52 really really quickly using an +4 Crystal Dagger. The damage output was at least double that of a blunt.
Once he hit 52 I tried AOBA and it felt like I was hitting mobs with a stick. I tried a friends Focus duals, and another friends Kris /focus and after that, if I ever play my Dwarf again, I will never, ever use a blunt for pve.
If you hunt greens in duo, try a dagger you will be suprised how well it works.
Yes i will be surprised...you have like (28?) base DEX, that makes your accuracy nothing special to begin with, then you equip a dagger, which has even lower accuracy...Doesnt make sense to me, may aswell take up a bow over a dagger...same acc and more p atk after all...
My opinion is that more 2 handed fighter based blunts, like the dragon hunter axe, need to be created. 2 handed blunts are really the perfect weapon for a dwarf, you have the masteries and can still use hammer crush. If more of these weapons came out it would benefit destro's and gladi's too, i may even switch from duals.
Yes i will be surprised...you have like (28?) base DEX, that makes your accuracy nothing special to begin with, then you equip a dagger, which has even lower accuracy...Doesnt make sense to me, may aswell take up a bow over a dagger...same acc and more p atk after all...
becuase you can't spoil much with a bow ;p
I did say try a dagger if you hunt greens, (which imo you should be doing anyway if you are a BH) with a buffer or duo.
White 4x HP mobs are ok in a group, yellow and above you can forget it... but.. for small groups and duos for farming recipes/mats, a dagger is the dogs nuts. You do need a decent buffer though, I had a 66 Warcryer and only needed to rest my BH for MP to spoil.
I tried Blunt, Dagger, and Dual swords. The most damage over time by far was using a dagger.
You do realise that the duals crits should hurt for less? Only 1 of the swords will crit giving you half a critical hit, eg the 1 sword would crit for 500 where as the blunt crits for 1k. However with duals ur hitting twice, so your crit rate is doubled possibly? But then duals do tend to miss alot as you have to rely on both swords connecting to the target in order to give out full damage. I would have thought for a dorf a two hander would be better then duals.
Only fully buffed fighting blunt weak mobs with a overenchanted blunt will a dwarf ever crit for over 1k. I don't know if you are pulling your info out of your neverregion or just play a different type of L2 then everyone else but seriously seeing a lot of flaws with your arguments.
Also when looking at A speed you must remember thats how fast it is to hit with BOTH swords not one. So overall you are hitting more often which should result in more crits in the long run anyways and blunts are low crit rate weapons which is why they haev the +4 accuracy.
Read it again, i said "eg" as in "example". They are not in-game actual damage stats. I also did state that because you have two swords your crit rate is increased, so your argument is infact invalid.
I agree Nameless it seems like duals do more damage in a PVE world. Where dwarves are gimped is that we really have to carry both a blunt and duals to be effective. Plus if you want to party with anyone as a WS you better have a pole on you as well. So I end up carrying a variety of weapons, while making any alts I might have extremely poor just to make it so that I can use duals to do damage in PVE, Blunt/Bow to be somewhat useful in PVP, and a pole so that every once in a while someone will group with me, usually my Plunder and our SE, so three of our own accounts.
But I've seen that Dual SLS does more damage than the AOBA over time.
Has no dwarf tried a two-hander? Im sure it would be far better then duals for them.
if you got no skills those 2 are basicaly identical. You get 2 half power hits with duals, compared to 1 full pover with 2hander in same amount of time. You get half-krits and half-misses (1 blade only) but twice as often as 2hander's full power crits. It's just a maetter of preference and looks.
Only fully buffed fighting blunt weak mobs with a overenchanted blunt will a dwarf ever crit for over 1k. I don't know if you are pulling your info out of your neverregion or just play a different type of L2 then everyone else but seriously seeing a lot of flaws with your arguments.
LOOOOOL your soooooooooo wrong. http://lineage2.mugimugi.org/Shot00498.jpg
PS if I had my blunt or just one handed weapon, yes I wuld have crited for 2k in damage LOL so I'm not really sure what your talking about?
PS I can crit as high as 3k in damage with my B grade bow :P but yeah thats a bow.
PS the mosb I hunted where lv 67-69, TOI 5. SO not dark blue crap. PS did I mention it's resist melee?
Heh i knew i wasnt wrong, im never wrong :)
With crit dmg duals you can most likely get an extra 200 dmg aswell, however that was on a mob, not a player :p
not sure where you got that info from but im sure its not 2x per lvl
theres some sort of fomula used to calculate pattack but im not sure if anyone actually knows what it is
It's 2X per level. At least just after 40. It may change down the road. It is also for D grade. I don't have 2 weapons atm but I'll try to barrow a econd if you want.
At D grade you gain 1 p.att per level with a 1 handed and 2 for duals. At 40 it's double. We did the math in the old thread, maybw the mods can find it. But 107 duals with no masteries has all most the exact p.att at 39 as a Bonebreaker. At the new skill lvel the blunts p.att jumps ahead. Then the duals catch up.
not sure where you got that info from but im sure its not 2x per lvl
theres some sort of fomula used to calculate pattack but im not sure if anyone actually knows what it is
It's 2X per level. At least just after 40. It may change down the road. It is also for D grade. I don't have 2 weapons atm but I'll try to barrow a econd if you want.
At D grade you gain 1 p.att per level with a 1 handed and 2 for duals. At 40 it's double. We did the math in the old thread, maybw the mods can find it. But 107 duals with no masteries has all most the exact p.att at 39 as a Bonebreaker. At the new skill lvel the blunts p.att jumps ahead. Then the duals catch up.
Just filling you in here, it's more then just 'P.atk' who is involced in this foruma, your forgeting a VERY important key function, Atk. Speed.
how to compare to different weapons damage, take
P.atk * Atk speed / P.atk* Atk speed on the other weapon and you get the % difference of the damage.
Only fully buffed fighting blunt weak mobs with a overenchanted blunt will a dwarf ever crit for over 1k. I don't know if you are pulling your info out of your neverregion or just play a different type of L2 then everyone else but seriously seeing a lot of flaws with your arguments.
LOOOOOL your soooooooooo wrong. http://lineage2.mugimugi.org/Shot00498.jpg
PS if I had my blunt or just one handed weapon, yes I wuld have crited for 2k in damage LOL so I'm not really sure what your talking about?
PS I can crit as high as 3k in damage with my B grade bow :P but yeah thats a bow.
PS the mosb I hunted where lv 67-69, TOI 5. SO not dark blue crap. PS did I mention it's resist melee?
Don't be too impressed with 1k blunt damage. Especially when fully buffed. My glad did that with his 1H SLS long ago when I was making hid B duals. My C duals on him did like 450-700 in DVC. My B duals did like 900-1150.
For PVP, dwarves with bows are better than ones using any melee weapon. Warsmiths with there pet spamming SS are also pretty good now, the combo being not bad for a melee, but it figures they are better off with a bow.
Don't be too impressed with 1k blunt damage. Especially when fully buffed. My glad did that with his 1H SLS long ago when I was making hid B duals. My C duals on him did like 450-700 in DVC. My B duals did like 900-1150.
Look again on the pic plz, was using B grade duals, hitting Mele resist mobs, And no, I was NOT using a blunt, and since it's duals, it's half damage, if I was using blunt, expect 2k damage crits.
i have actually pulled off a 1200 crit useing a blunt
thats with a +0 meteor shower fighting the lowest green mobs in FOD
i had full se and prophet buffs, im pretty sure with BD buffs i could hit 1400 at least
point is if i was useing equivilent duels i'd prolly hit close to 1k with 1 sword
doesnt anyone see something wrong with this?
after 70+ lvls of blunt mastery dont you think a blunt should have more pattack than a set of duels?
not to mention the actual crit rate and range
BH's have no MP to use stun at all while fighting, all goes to spoil and our MP is not even close nought for that.
And PS for theos who fully want to know, blunt mastery only add an set P.atk number who get added after the modifier and so on, it's not counted into hte modifier.
Like an 74 Dwarf get about 70-80 P.atk from it's blunt masteries alone, so thats the P.atk he will have more then all the other weapons. But it's not about P.atk
I have the same with Duals vs Blunt in terms of P.atk but not atk speed, nor crit.
u would rather have duals over blunts in pve and pvp? pvp is more important to me. maybe pve is more important to some1 else. i like to stun. he likes to spoil? idk. i wouldnt want to trade my +7 elysian hp for a +7 dle kesh.
Yes i will be surprised...you have like (28?) base DEX, that makes your accuracy nothing special to begin with, then you equip a dagger, which has even lower accuracy...Doesnt make sense to me, may aswell take up a bow over a dagger...same acc and more p atk after all...
Orc fighters have 26 base DEX, -2 for BW(using atm, cant afford majestic helmet so no point in buying the rest of the set) so 24 DEX. And I hit just fine on dark red mobs so the accuracy wouldnt be a problem really. Fully buffed, the attack speed and crit rate more than make up for those few misses.
A 2hander is still better on a Destro as we got 2 different mastery sets for it and all those nice skills :)
But for a Dwarf in pve, dagger is not a bad option especially if you have a BD with you also.
I have a +7 Meteor Shower with Focus. Buffed with prophet buffs, my blunt > any other weapon (crits are 1-1.2k on white mobs). Now if I was to add BD dances... Perhaps a Forgotten Blade/Heaven Divider with focus might have higher DPS.
Problem I have is that I need to use a blunt for spoil crush (which lands 2x as much as the normal spoil). Fortunately Armor Crush permits me to use 1h,2h blunt/sword, unforunately if I want to spoil and I'm with a bd, I'm stuck with a blunt...
For pure PVE, as in, you are never ever going to fight another player, ever. +5 Dex, +4 Str, -9 con, Tallum Heavy, OE'd Crit Duals are the best. The damage output will be more than any other weapon.
Most of us though are interested in some PvP. If you go with the above setup for PvP, you might switch to a bow, but it isn't going to matter, because if you gimp your con that much you're dead meat. PvP is not necessarily all about DPS, and while you can change your weapon for PvP, changing your tats is pretty much out of the question.
Now the best PvP setup for a dwarf is debatable, but most would go for HP+++ without gimping your str too much.
In my case, I'm a clan leader, so I'm extremely hesitant to really dip into my con, because I get targetted alot, and if I want to be able to stay on the relic for sieges, I need to be able to stay alive, and hopefully resist a couple of stuns.
For me:
Elysian w/ 25% Health (a shartload of extra HP)
Tallum Heavy (it's a compromise, because Tallum is PVE armor for dwarves, but it also gives me a little more DPS for PVP, especially when I use a bow)
Now this next part is going to get me flamed:
+3 Str/-3 Con
+2 Str/-2 Dex
The strength of a blunt is it's accuracy. -2 Dex hardly affects accuracy. The hit to dex affects crit rate, but you don't crit with a blunt often anyhow. Lastly it has a negligable affect on run speed and atk speed. All of that I have no problem living with in order to keep those extra couple points of con. (PVP decision)
Extra Str is where it's at with regards to blunts. If you almost never miss, but at the same time don't crit often, then you want to get as much damage as possible out of every single swing. Like I said though, I didn't want to gimp my con any more than the -5 I already lost (armor and -3 con tat).
So I traded 2 points of dex for 2 points of str.
As noted above, shields are practically worthless for dwarves in PvE, but they can be a lifesaver in PvP against archers. Keeping the 1H blunt and shield is a PvP decision.
It's worth noting that I box an SE, so I always have the best in SE buffs. Even without the SE buffs though, I believe I'd stay with the same setup because it's a decent balance for PvE AND PvP.