User Agreement Violation Posts

Hi everyone,

I've seen quite a few questions and concerns about the official message board policy about violation discussions, and I wanted to take the opportunity to clear up some misconceptions.

This policy is not intended to "hide" any problems or be used as a means of ignoring these concerns. User Agreement violations are always one of our top concerns, and that will not change. The forum policy (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=442966) thread will continue to be updated with information from the Lineage II team about these concerns, so please refer to that thread for more details about our stance on User Agreement violations.

We also review the Official Bot Behavior and Detection Method Thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=444817) daily, so even though we can't reply to every post in that thread, the feedback is read and considered.

Attempting to use other words such as "you know who" or "automated players" in posts in order to circumvent this policy will not keep a thread on the subject from being removed or closed. If it was merely a case of hiding the word, it could have simply been added to the profanity filter. Instead, it's the nature of the discussion that is the concern -- almost all topics started to discuss botting are repetitive, unconstructive, or ranting, which is why the policy is in place.

Please remember to use the official thread to share new or constructive information with us, and to use the Support web site (http://support.lineage2.com) to report a player that you suspect may be violating the User Agreement.

We remain committed to investigating and removing players who violate the User Agreement. We appreciate every report you send us, and your feedback on this subject is important to us.

Thank you!

Attempting to use other words such as "you know who" or "automated players" in posts in order to circumvent

Seeing as I've used these phrases in the past and it's contrued as circumventing then I apologize. Henceforth I will refrain from and reference to such entities and hereby restrict my discussions to the dendelions growing in the meadows and the warm breeze the blows through.

On my last post I was just curious and asking if the lighter servers was due to certain factors or maybe it was just players on vacation. Anyway, thank you for all your criticisms. It's always most welcome when someone with the company takes time to address our issues.

Quote: Mistryl: Attempting to use other words such as "you know who" or "automated players" in posts in order to circumvent

Quote: TailChaser
Seeing as I've used these phrases in the past and it's contrued as circumventing then I apologize. Henceforth I will refrain from and reference to such entities and hereby restrict my discussions to the dendelions growing in the meadows and the warm breeze the blows through.

LoL, guess that means my threads on the chopping block. :)

Quote: Mistryl: Attempting to use other words such as "you know who" or "automated players" in posts in order to circumvent

Dang there goes my favorite phrase. Hmm what now guess ill just refrain from commenting on these issues. But it was nice to see server capasity at light when I logged in today.

I find it extremely difficult to come to the discussion boards and not be able to discuss what is IMO the #1 problem facing this game. I'm not even talking about any 1 type of violation over the others, I am talking about a complete disregard for the EULA as a whole.

Perhaps if NCSoft made more of an effort to deal with the problem of cheating then we would be less likely to discuss it repeatedly, and we would not see thread after thread created to complain about it.

My recommendation.. Treat the problem, not the symptom.

Good post, Bighands. I agree 100%.

I understand to a point why they have done this. If they hadden't changed the rules 95% of all posts would be about the biggest problem in this game.

I understand to a point why they have done this. If they hadden't changed the rules 95% of all posts would be about the biggest problem in this game.

Call me a logical thinker.. but I would fix the problem, then posts would go away.

Just like now, since we can't talk about the biggest problem, a large percentage of the posts are about the second biggest problem - PvP balance.

Treating the symptom without regard to the actual problem can actually make the real problem fester and get worse and worse.

Well regardless of how you look at it, it will sadly be seen as a coverup method if you apply this as a blanket removal policy. You really can't avoid mentioning these things in some conversations or even hinting at it.

It would be better if you could simply keep threads from going into circular arguements or long debates, instead of blanket removal :(

They already did deal with it, anything more would have to be done by NCSoft Korea.

Its silly at this point to label it a "grave threat" to the game, considering the game has been living with it and people benefitting from it for years now.

I think the subject should be allowed to come up in conjunction with other subjects if relevant, but not as a topic on its own, because thats completely futile.

It would be better if you could simply keep threads from going into circular arguements

Thats like asking a person to hold back the sea by blowing, have you forgotten what the people that post here can be like? :)

Now I chime in so much otday I feel like Big Ben.

Treating symptoms won't ever be enough to handle a social issue.
Go for the root of the evil. Cure the disease.

And if you add all the hot issues to the restricted topics list thes boards will just become boring as hell. They're already way too sterilized for me... Ah good 'ol days.. pruned unfortunately..

But now there may be a simple solution to the particular problem which the EULA forbids to talk.

Allow bots.

I believe it won't be that different from what we live now in game.

The root of the evil is not automated players, but adena buyers. Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper. The only way to remove these bots is to lower the demand for ebayed adena.

But still, you cannot ask law abiding players to stop buying adena, because they already don't. What NCSoft does really need to do is to effectively punish adena buyers, or at least make a strong perception among players that adena buying is very unsafe, and if for some (e.g. legal) reasons NCSoft cannot do that, the game is doomed.

Well regardless of how you look at it, it will sadly be seen as a coverup method if you apply this as a blanket removal policy. You really can't avoid mentioning these things in some conversations or even hinting at it.

This policy is not applied as a blanket removal policy; if it was, this thread wouldn't be open and the Detection thread wouldn't exist. :)

Threads that discuss these violations that are constructive, contain useful information, and are not just specific accusations against other players tend to be closed rather than removed so that the points made in the thread are still visible.

We also will continue to post on this subject, and reinforce our stance that User Agreement violations are an important concern for us. We do investigate and punish for these violations, and we do consider all player feedback valuable.

Nevermind. I shouldn't allow myself to be upset just because some days it takes me forty-five minutes to sign in, and some other days I have to compete with 10 trains all hunting for the same mob I am.

I'm not quite ready to get banned for mentioning what I feel the truth to be.

The root of the evil is not automated players, but adena buyers. Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper. The only way to remove these bots is to lower the demand for ebayed adena.

But still, you cannot ask law abiding players to stop buying adena, because they already don't. What NCSoft does really need to do is to effectively punish adena buyers, or at least make a strong perception among players that adena buying is very unsafe, and if for some (e.g. legal) reasons NCSoft cannot do that, the game is doomed.

Good point there. But I think it will be a little diffcult to punish Adena buyers unless they practise entrapment which may not be legally feasible in their country plus it is a bit "harsh".

What I propose is adjust the game play mechanism or rules so that the incentive to buy adena lessen. Eg, allow multiple quest item drop, drop rates etc.

To me NA NCsoft has really make lives diffcult for players who just wan to enjoy a normal games. The mats collection process is crazy. Quest rewards are less than desirable.

Let me name some example. Saint Valley quest. Dark Twilight and Quest of Submission(forgot the exact name) Both quest required to kill same mob in the Saint Valley. Only one item drop at any one time. On top of that I need to get 300 quest item for each quest.

In other words, I need to kill more than 700-900 just to get the complete 2 quests. That will take me 2-3 days of 1-4hrs daily grinding provided I visit Saint valley everyday.

In the quest that collect Saint Blood, the mat is return is like....13 thons for 300 Saint Blood. The Gem of submission yield either exp/sp or adena. If I choose adena, I will not feel any satisfaction.

So for pple like me, we takes weeks/months to farm for mats for our A grade. Unless we buy from the crazy economy of L2. Though I dun buy adena myself, sometimes I can understand why some choose to do so.

In the end, NCsoft, in my view, fail to meet the needs of customers who wanted some slow pace leisure. The way they run the game is telling me, "Hey play long hours to get addicted or go buy some adena to get quick fix."

Well regardless of how you look at it, it will sadly be seen as a coverup method if you apply this as a blanket removal policy. You really can't avoid mentioning these things in some conversations or even hinting at it.

This policy is not applied as a blanket removal policy; if it was, this thread wouldn't be open and the Detection thread wouldn't exist. :)

Threads that discuss these violations that are constructive, contain useful information, and are not just specific accusations against other players tend to be closed rather than removed so that the points made in the thread are still visible.

We also will continue to post on this subject, and reinforce our stance that User Agreement violations are an important concern for us. We do investigate and punish for these violations, and we do consider all player feedback valuable.



I have one suggestion, move the Bot Detection thread to General Discussion. I do not see how it fits in with Technical Issues anyway.

Move it to General Discussion as a stickied topic and I would bet that a majority of your "bot" posts will disappear as the thread will be more visible and encourage people to post there instead.

I can't help but get the feeliong that you have "buried" it in the Technical forum to obscure it from immediate view.

I didn't discover that thread before it had like a dozen pages already. One thread for discussing bots is really not enough IMO. There are so many ideas as to what to do about them - many good ones too. And one thread for multiple discussions is really not sufficient. I get that NC doesn't want every forum flooded with this topic, but really... :confused:

The root of the evil is not automated players, but adena buyers. Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper. The only way to remove these bots is to lower the demand for ebayed adena.

your reasoning is infortunately flawed.

you say more bots = adena cheaper

and that adena cheaper = more adena sellers

In fact as much as the first premise is true, the second is potentially false.

It all depends on "how cheap" it will get.
It may as well get so cheap that no one will be able to earn real bucks for it.
lower production cost + same margin due to highly competitive environment = less return
less return = some sellers out of the market to find a better source of income

And while talking about monetary devaluation you don't think about the general inflation on prices which usually follows.
But afaik L2...
Allowing the offer of adena to grow will prolly have no effect on the number of ppl considering it legit to buy adena.
And they would probably farm it themselves, being allowed to.
Thus LOWERING the demand in adena for real bucks which would in turn exclude more professional bot/farmers.

So allowing bots would
- make the price of adena drop by upping the offer, excluding some farmers (those past but still near break even or those who will seek better opportunities for their time)
- make the demand decrease as ppl will have the possibility of farming themselves...

- on a side note it would also fix the ToI quest ... wouldn't it be wonderfull ?

$0.02

The root of the evil is not automated players, but adena buyers. Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper. The only way to remove these bots is to lower the demand for ebayed adena.

your reasoning is infortunately flawed.

you say more bots = adena cheaper

and that adena cheaper = more adena sellers

In fact as much as the first premise is true, the second is potentially false.

It all depends on "how cheap" it will get.
It may as well get so cheap that no one will be able to earn real bucks for it.
lower production cost + same margin due to highly competitive environment = less return
less return = some sellers out of the market to find a better source of income

And while talking about monetary devaluation you don't think about the general inflation on prices which usually follows.
But afaik L2...
Allowing the offer of adena to grow will prolly have no effect on the number of ppl considering it legit to buy adena.
And they would probably farm it themselves, being allowed to.
Thus LOWERING the demand in adena for real bucks which would in turn exclude more professional bot/farmers.

So allowing bots would
- make the price of adena drop by upping the offer, excluding some farmers (those past but still near break even or those who will seek better opportunities for their time)
- make the demand decrease as ppl will have the possibility of farming themselves...

- on a side note it would also fix the ToI quest ... wouldn't it be wonderfull ?

$0.02



And herein lies the problem.

You bring up an interesting topic, that would probably lead to a great discussion.

Too bad we're not allowed to have it...

The root of the evil is not automated players, but adena buyers. Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper. The only way to remove these bots is to lower the demand for ebayed adena.

your reasoning is infortunately flawed.

you say more bots = adena cheaper

and that adena cheaper = more adena sellers

In fact as much as the first premise is true, the second is potentially false.



I neither said nor needed to say that adena cheaper = more adena sellers. Cheaper botting = more bots = less room for live players, and that's enough to say.

It all depends on "how cheap" it will get.
It may as well get so cheap that no one will be able to earn real bucks for it.
lower production cost + same margin due to highly competitive environment = less return
less return = some sellers out of the market to find a better source of income

It does not matter whether these bots come from a thousand, hundred or just ten adena sellers. The number of the bots will be enough to meet demand of adena buyers, and this demand (in real money, say, US$) will not shrink for much.

And while talking about monetary devaluation you don't think about the general inflation on prices which usually follows.

I do think about in-game inflation caused by the growth of commercial botting. Guess who will be hit worst.

But afaik L2...
Allowing the offer of adena to grow will prolly have no effect on the number of ppl considering it legit to buy adena.
And they would probably farm it themselves, being allowed to.

Why do you think so? They are not allowed to buy adena now, but they still buy. They have the spare money they wish to spend on the game illegally, and, instead of making their amateur botted accounts, buy adena from pros. Know why? Because it is cheaper for them than to compete with pros. And those amateurs that think they can bot efficiently, already do that, "farm it themselves".

When you allow bots, every benefit that gets a recreational player, gets an adena seller, too. But adena sellers still get the bonuses from much bigger volumes of their operations. It will still be cheaper to buy adena than to farm it for most of the current adena buyers.

So allowing bots would
- make the price of adena drop by upping the offer, excluding some farmers (those past but still near break even or those who will seek better opportunities for their time)
- make the demand decrease as ppl will have the possibility of farming themselves...
- on a side note it would also fix the ToI quest ... wouldn't it be wonderfull ?

1. Sorry, I am not interested in lowering of the price for ebayed adena, and don't understand why you would.

2-3. I am not at all interested in people botting for themselves. I can automate things pretty well, I do it for living for about 20 years, I guess it won't be hard for me to automate even the most complicated quests (or maybe even sieges), but it's not why I am paying for this game.

I am paying for live play with other live players. If live play is nerfed so much, I don't pay anymore, period.

The root of the evil is not automated players, but adena buyers. Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper. The only way to remove these bots is to lower the demand for ebayed adena.

your reasoning is infortunately flawed.

you say more bots = adena cheaper

and that adena cheaper = more adena sellers

In fact as much as the first premise is true, the second is potentially false.



I neither said nor needed to say that adena cheaper = more adena sellers. Cheaper botting = more bots = less room for live players, and that's enough to say.




you said Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper
The use of 'as' in your sentence implies that the price decrease is a consequence over time of the increase in the number of bots.

It all depends on "how cheap" it will get.
It may as well get so cheap that no one will be able to earn real bucks for it.
lower production cost + same margin due to highly competitive environment = less return
less return = some sellers out of the market to find a better source of income

It does not matter whether these bots come from a thousand, hundred or just ten adena sellers. The number of the bots will be enough to meet demand of adena buyers, and this demand (in real money, say, US$) will not shrink for much.




The offer will over time always meet the demand. They monitor their stock and adjust the number of bots as every company do : they monitor their stock...
Their sales will shrink... more players in the market = smaller pieces of cake.

And while talking about monetary devaluation you don't think about the general inflation on prices which usually follows.

I do think about in-game inflation caused by the growth of commercial botting. Guess who will be hit worst.


It's not the growth of botting who's responsible for inflation, it's the lack of majestic helmets.

But afaik L2...
Allowing the offer of adena to grow will prolly have no effect on the number of ppl considering it legit to buy adena.
And they would probably farm it themselves, being allowed to.

Why do you think so? They are not allowed to buy adena now, but they still buy. They have the spare money they wish to spend on the game illegally, and, instead of making their amateur botted accounts, buy adena from pros. Know why? Because it is cheaper for them than to compete with pros. And those amateurs that think they can bot efficiently, already do that, "farm it themselves".

When you allow bots, every benefit that gets a recreational player, gets an adena seller, too. But adena sellers still get the bonuses from much bigger volumes of their operations. It will still be cheaper to buy adena than to farm it for most of the current adena buyers.



They would not have to compete with pros... reread my post and you'll see that the professional botters would be excluded from the market because of self supply and margin compression

So allowing bots would
- make the price of adena drop by upping the offer, excluding some farmers (those past but still near break even or those who will seek better opportunities for their time)
- make the demand decrease as ppl will have the possibility of farming themselves...
- on a side note it would also fix the ToI quest ... wouldn't it be wonderfull ?

1. Sorry, I am not interested in lowering of the price for ebayed adena, and don't understand why you would.


As said before ... read again.... if adena is cheaper on ebay or ign or wherever, pro farmers earn LESS DOLLARS, rendering the market less attractive

2-3. I am not at all interested in people botting for themselves. I can automate things pretty well, I do it for living for about 20 years, I guess it won't be hard for me to automate even the most complicated quests (or maybe even sieges), but it's not why I am paying for this game.

I am paying for live play with other live players. If live play is nerfed so much, I don't pay anymore, period.

If you didn't realise it yet... few ppl in need for resources and resolved to bot bot their mains....
But they don't fight with their mules either.

But I'll sum it up for you and others.
What this discussion really brings is the point in availability of resources.
Sure it ain't wow and never should be. I think we'd all quit if it were to become wow...

But nonetheless we have a huge problem in getting some key materials, and A gear in particular.
This lack of balance in drops is VERY DETRIMENTAL to the normal player (as opposed to the hardcore player).

I'm not really pro-botting but I'm fed up of the topic.
And for the sake of the argument allowing them would get us rid of the topic and surprisingly solve many problems for the average player.
And this very idea in the discussion proves that besides the bot SYMPTOM there is _again_ a BALANCE problem.

For instance you should know that the drops rates are adjusted following an equation comparing the number of players, the total amount of adena produced each day and the market price.... and what would be the real impact of banning every bot ? No clue. But I wouldn't bet my old socks on the idea.
The topic is way vaster than these boards input boxes admit... and you have already much to ponder so I'll leave it there today. I, cringely...

If NC wants to truely remove the farmer, seller and buyer element they could turn the tables by selling "preleveled characters" and Adena on their own. More money in their bank and we have a happeir game. I know there are several other MMO publishers that do this and really solves the problem because you do not see their accounts and currancy for sale by 3rd party vendors.

Just a thought to chew on....

Peace

If NC wants to truely remove the farmer, seller and buyer element they could turn the tables by selling "preleveled characters" and Adena on their own. More money in their bank and we have a happeir game. I know there are several other MMO publishers that do this and really solves the problem because you do not see their accounts and currancy for sale by 3rd party vendors.

Just a thought to chew on....

Peace

Whole new can of worm. In a game where levels can easily mean who wins and looses officially sanctioned buying of items and levels would destroy this game for anyone who doesn't bust out the ol' credit card.

At least now the people who cheat get banned.

Hadn't thought of it that way, good point. But if you stop and think about it, we already have a situation like that now. Some one with a thick enough walet can head on over to the local adena vendor, get a couple million or 10 and buy whatever. He's all happy, the farmers are happy, the sellers are happy but where does that leave the rest of us? It's going to happen no matter what. I would prefer the sanctioned method cause it removes the "Pests".

(Can we call them "Pests" an get away with it? I hope so, I like the sound of it.) :D

If NC wants to truely remove the farmer, seller and buyer element they could turn the tables by selling "preleveled characters" and Adena on their own. More money in their bank and we have a happeir game. I know there are several other MMO publishers that do this and really solves the problem because you do not see their accounts and currancy for sale by 3rd party vendors.

Just a thought to chew on....

Peace

Whole new can of worm. In a game where levels can easily mean who wins and looses officially sanctioned buying of items and levels would destroy this game for anyone who doesn't bust out the ol' credit card.

At least now the people who cheat get banned.

If NC wants to truely remove the farmer, seller and buyer element they could turn the tables by selling "preleveled characters" and Adena on their own. More money in their bank and we have a happeir game. I know there are several other MMO publishers that do this and really solves the problem because you do not see their accounts and currancy for sale by 3rd party vendors.

Just a thought to chew on....

Peace

Whole new can of worm. In a game where levels can easily mean who wins and looses officially sanctioned buying of items and levels would destroy this game for anyone who doesn't bust out the ol' credit card.

At least now the people who cheat get banned.



i agree. the idea that you can legitimately buy everything you would want shouldnt happen. it doesnt even any playing fields, it makes them entirely uneven.

condoned recreational botting however is something that might take serious consideration. i know UO did something similar to this, and the lack of competition stopped the development of rogue programs, and the control of the uo-x crew slowed the implementation of speed hacks and the like.

but if (and since) NC has decided against it, there's not much for us to do except wish A grade helmets were easier to get.

i agree. the idea that you can legitimately buy everything you would want shouldnt happen. it doesnt even any playing fields, it makes them entirely uneven.

I don't know if you looked at the game lately but if you did you should know the game IS uneven, as always been uneven and will always be uneven.
It all depends on the time you have to devote to the game. If you're a nerd in high school and not playing football you'll always be ahead of the average working guy.
And ppl already buy adena so legitimate it wouldn't make things more uneven. It would just shift the people getting rewards.

condoned recreational botting however is something that might take serious consideration. i know UO did something similar to this, and the lack of competition stopped the development of rogue programs, and the control of the uo-x crew slowed the implementation of speed hacks and the like.

but if (and since) NC has decided against it, there's not much for us to do except wish A grade helmets were easier to get.

True.. And discuss its implications for the sake of it ;)

Cos yes it's true, levels mean it all and gear decides between players of the same level.
It makes me think about a thread from Balis about rewards for long term players...
I'll think more about it and post later.

But still ; about talking about bots... I'm not sure I would mind if 3d party software became allowed. It wouldn't change my gameplay much, more mats would be available... Because I'm pretty sure L2 is not much about economy anymore... It has been replaced by pure grinding over the chronicles and this grind usually brings enough resources over time.
Wrecked ecnomy is just an annoyance on top of the grind.

If third party software became legal to use I would quite and so would alot of other people I know.

If third party software became legal to use I would quite and so would alot of other people I know.

That post could have some worth if you'd explain the reasoning (if any) behind that stance...

The root of the evil is not automated players, but adena buyers. Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper. The only way to remove these bots is to lower the demand for ebayed adena.

your reasoning is infortunately flawed.

you say more bots = adena cheaper

and that adena cheaper = more adena sellers

In fact as much as the first premise is true, the second is potentially false.



I neither said nor needed to say that adena cheaper = more adena sellers. Cheaper botting = more bots = less room for live players, and that's enough to say.



you said Allowing botting by recreational players will increase the number of bots for adena sellers, as adena gets cheaper
The use of 'as' in your sentence implies that the price decrease is a consequence over time of the increase in the number of bots.



Yes. And you have agreed with that (which is quoted above). Can we now also agree on the formula "Cheaper botting = less room for live players", and then move to the discussion about the subtleties of adena market and about viability of Lineage II as a bot team vs. bot team strategic war simulator?

I do think about in-game inflation caused by the growth of commercial botting. Guess who will be hit worst.

It's not the growth of botting who's responsible for inflation, it's the lack of majestic helmets.



Majestic helmets are not much more overpriced (in street/base value ratio) than, say, brigandine helmets. Any ideas why briga helmets are?

Brig Helms are overpriced because there isn't that many people in the proper level range to farm the mats for em. On top of that, if you are in the right level range, it only takes a few days, to outlevel those mobs and move on.

A grade helms cost around 3 to 4 mil to craft, not including the recipe. Currently they are selling for 20 to 30 times that price.

Suppose NCSoft did allow botting and adena purchasing. What effect would it have on the game? Well, for starters, IMO it would totally sack everything between lvl 1 and 65 or so, since no one would even bother to play at those levels.

For the pure PvP crowd, it would be great, no more grind for money or xp, you could just jump right in like it was CS and have at it.

The problem is that the game is balanced around XP. That's why the mechanics are what they are for XP gain and loss. The idea being my clan and your clan go to war, if we're both playing legit, then one of us winds up admitting defeat because we grow weary of the adena cost, and more importantly the XP loss. Take out the need for XP and what's left??

Which is why I say that the # 1 problem facing the game is cheating. Take Clan A - they're legit, say they average 6 hours per day play time. (to gain Adena and XP) then put them at war with Clan B - the cheaters, who essentially have any amount of Adena they really want, and XP 20 hrs per day. There can only be one result from this war, and it's not because Clan B has better organization, strategy, skills, or anything else.

That is what's fundamentally wrong with this game. As LC points out, it's been this way for years now, so why change?

Here's why: The health of the game long term. We are barely a third of the way through the projected storyline. Early info on C5 suggests that they plan on making the game even more PvP oriented and competitive in the future. To do so while the cheaters have such a large advantage doesn't spell out well for the game as a whole.

(another reason why brig helms are so expensive is that ppl who reroll don't mind spending 1/100th of their majestic helmet to get one...)

And from Bigh's post it resolves as usual to a balance problem between hardcore players and normal ones.
The gap will be ever wider. And I don't see either anything coming to fill it in any way.
I suggested newbie buffs for 60+ without a sub but it may not be that ridiculous. I have several 60+ toons and no 65+. I began to play L2 28 months ago and I consider all my toons as lowbies.

Seeing the XP curves I know I'm not even halfway to 75... Guess if I'm happy.

I've so far thought about two ways to circumvent the gap. Both could be applied together. I'll think about them a bit more and post later on.

BigH.. you have mail ;-)