I was thinking about how make this post and going to explain how I got from point A to point B. I decided against it and simplify my case for the sake of the readers =P
From offset of Coalition till recently, I used my hate for my enemy and belief as long I am in a clan that thinks like me I was safe. Lets just say I had a puzzle from my past just wasnt coming together, until recently. Thanks to lot failed dicussions, well made observations, and events playing out again I found a conclusion that put the puzzle together and made sence.
Why do clans make allies with other clans who's game style would have been kick out cause against their principles / charter?
Why would a clan stay true to an alliance that go around them and said deal with decissions of the stronger clans or u can leave?
Why do clans say they stand for one principle, and work with another other clans that goes against that same principle?
So far the answer I come to is get access to power and some sence of security. I wonder thou seeing how things have turned out, was it worth it? Short goals were achieved, but who fell and who got stronger?
When clans give up founding principles that made them who they are, then are little to no different than thous who they summitted their principles to. To me just means they accept the behaviors of others, even at the cost of forsaking themselves.
I am sure I'm not the only one who is tired of same old crap repeating itself. I find it ironic that I found leading example of the solution from people I hated the most and they even helped me conclude that.
I slowly was putting my foot out the door. I couldnt put my finger on it, then crap in Avalon happened. Felt like if I was going to stay in Avalon I was betraying myself. Just so happened that SDog made a post that got my mind moving in the direction I have posted.
Avalon is full of big players and they can take care of themselves. I still love my SilentForce family, and I did best thing I could in which I am part of them, but running slightly independant. I serve my members and SilentForce, not what Avalon mutated into.
This post was made to bring a different option to the table. I just tried of seeing clans/alliance rise and fall in such short time, while others who are rock solid get even more stronger.
L2 is a game for alliances... the end game is all about alliances and meta alliances... and since the only person who you can be really sure about is yourself... there are going to be some problems. Especially when one whole alliance or "side" is constantly identified with a few individuals.
Not blaming anyone (at the moment ;))... but thats how it is.
Hum, SP is "rock solid" for some reasons, yes but...
Their gameplay rules have absolutely no limitations but don't think that they are a bunch of anarchist then: it is the complete opposite. The small gameplay liberty they give to their members, is taken away with their in-game relationship policy: absolute no bonds but towards SP members, drastic mesures to limit relations, befriending with non SP.. they are also merciless with those who will break their alliance rules. In many ways, they behave much more like a communism organization than an anarchist one.
Now, on the opposite, we non-SP and particularly in Avalon, function in an opposite way: we have strong gameplay rules with a very small ammount of "in game relationship policy". I mention "have" because even if Avalon is now a mix of legit and cheaters, our side still strongly limit grief/pk ect.. and compared to SP, this is currently all that matters.
Now, about legit vs non-legit: man, we lost that battle long ago. I've been in fairly too many alliances to try to break them for a legit/cheater reason now: cheaters (ebay, bot, plvling) represent the majority of the 70+ player community.. we can't force them to play legit now, not 2 years after release, not when one has such a long time to experience the many benefits of cheating his/her way.
Now, what I can tell you also is that by leaving you may be in line with your beliefs, in a certain way.. but you also further decrease the voice and possible balance of power within your old clan.. and thuss within our alliance: when there was 100 legit to take into account and only 40 remains, these few legit are now in an even worste position to be heard, leaving them with a cruel dilema. I said "in a certain way" because unless you start playin full solo and stay away of the politics, there is no way that you will remain "untouched". By leaving for such a drastic reason, you chose to be completely govern by the legit/non-legit problem: this will completely control your behaviour toward the various players in-game..
I hope you will find the necessary fun in it to keep playing, because I couldn't and that's why I left for several months and only came back with this one rule in mind: I play legit and I support any legit behaviour within my clan/alliance.. this means that I will not try to convice a cheater to go legit, this fight is dull.. but i'll do my best to enforce legit behaviour/thinking as much as I can.
In a way, I'm applying one the first rules of the "original" cheaters: infiltrate the legit and slowly but slightly show them the benefit of cheat. Though, my "fight" is on another level: you can't beat a cheater at the "effectiveness" contest, especially with the NCsoft "8+2=? " anti-cheat policy... but you can at last show and explain that there are many legit ways to get either items or xp in this game. Succeful Raids are a powerful example in that regard: most ebayers will think twice if they realize that 1 raid per night could fairly easily equip them and their buddies.. at no cost and for way much more un and action that a "ebay" or "plvling" option. You also can show them the level of trust a legit play can bring: fairly easier to trust a guys who played the same acount for 2 years than the one who change names every months.
By leaving Avalon, you forbit yourself to help us bringing such legit and healty behaviour into the light. ;)
Note: as long as Avalon is a mix, will can possibly get the best of the 2 worlds.. pvp experience, gameplay knowledge, fun and friendlyness atmosphere and trust!
### EDIT####
Now with this into mind, SP becomes less than a "Rock solid" alliance.. or maybe something closer to Limestone than granit. Could NC's anti-cheat policy be the water that (dis)solves it ? :p
See Avalon as a mix between Sand, small rock and glue (the few strong personality): put in some water in it and guess what you get?.. yep, man: concrete. :)
I made a thread on this subject a long while back. The reason ASP continues on failing is because they try to do task-oriented alliances. They think that bringing SP down will be something important enough to make legits and non-legits settle their differences.
The reason why SP will probably still be around in C12 unless Lineage 3 comes out by then is because they did a people-oriented alliance.
The BEST that ASP could do would be to separate the clans into two alliances: a legit alliance and a non-legit one like was the case when pwn had it's own alliance and BBH/DS had their own alliances.
The lifestyles of both sides are so different that nothing can be done to settle them. Legit clans will tolerate non-legit alliances as long as the non-legit stuff happens far away from their eyes. "You got a +16 weapon? Great, just get in line and kill ennemies with us, but don't EVER tell us where you got it from."
I've seen some cases where tollerance was taught, because legits usually believe that all non-legits are all (insert random insult here), and when they realise not ALL are, they're willing to accept those who aren't amongst them. But that takes a lot of relating and mutual bondings that most non-legits in ASP aren't willing to go through.
The day the non-legits in ASP start respecting the legits is the day that side might be able to come up with something solid. But that day isn't anywhere near and it won't be near as long as all the current non-legit leaders are still around.
ASP will be together as long as they win together, but as soon as they start losing battles, you'll see them break up, because they weren't together for the long haul, just for the illusionary short-term goal of killing off SP.
I don't want to go into a legit vs non-legit discussion based on ethical reasonings, but just legit ASP versus non-legit ASP based on personalities. And I can guarantie you that they're not compatible and not just because of who cheats and who doesn't.
Split both and go back to pre-C3 situation.. Yep right, the perfect solution.
What is killing our side is precisely the lack of communication between legit and cheaters in our side, so keep separating them and you'll get even worth. what is killing us is precisely ppl wiling to see first what separates us rather than what we could bring to each others.
Thinking that a guys, who is used to ebay his gears and weapons whenever he wants, should go legit because.. because "cheat is bad", is a wrong fight. You'll manage to do one thing: burn yourself out and leave. On the other hand, fighting with them and in the long run proving them that united we can do stuff far more efficiently.. in a legit way (raid boss for example or pvp hunts, pve grinds ect..) and with lots of fun/action is far more effective.
What lots ppl fail to realise and prolly you too, is that an alliance such as SP, do not even need to ebay or severly cheat now! They got the power to legitly farm mobs for gears, the power to lvl-up their own clannies/allies in secured areas... they got tons of cash from the casttle or can simply reduce their opposition adena efficiency with the higher tax rates, ect..
So yep, go split the non-SP and say bye bye to the opportunity of reconciliation between legit and cheaters.. good job, indeed. Like I said, there are far more important things that defines our side versus SP side than the old and already lost battle of legit/non-legit.
Hum, SP is "rock solid" for some reasons, yes but...
Their gameplay rules have absolutely no limitations but don't think that they are a bunch of anarchist then: it is the complete opposite. The small gameplay liberty they give to their members, is taken away with their in-game relationship policy: absolute no bonds but towards SP members, drastic mesures to limit relations, befriending with non SP.. they are also merciless with those who will break their alliance rules. In many ways, they behave much more like a communism organization than an anarchist one.
I have never seen or heard any of this. I'm sure SP member can comment.
Now, on the opposite, we non-SP and particularly in Avalon, function in an opposite way: we have strong gameplay rules with a very small ammount of "in game relationship policy". I mention "have" because even if Avalon is now a mix of legit and cheaters, our side still strongly limit grief/pk ect.. and compared to SP, this is currently all that matters.
Well if u think so, more like "whatever works for us atm" policy from what I observed.
Now, about legit vs non-legit: man, we lost that battle long ago. I've been in fairly too many alliances to try to break them for a legit/cheater reason now: cheaters (ebay, bot, plvling) represent the majority of the 70+ player community.. we can't force them to play legit now, not 2 years after release, not when one has such a long time to experience the many benefits of cheating his/her way.
Simple solution, disolve ur clan and merge with theirs Alpha. This way you don't put up fake sign saying we are legit only and kick cheaters in our clans, but its ok that our allies do it. Just be proud that u dont mind working with cheaters and join/work with them. That way players such as myself wont join ur cause under false pretences.
Now, what I can tell you also is that by leaving you may be in line with your beliefs, in a certain way.. but you also further decrease the voice and possible balance of power within your old clan.. and thuss within our alliance: when there was 100 legit to take into account and only 40 remains, these few legit are now in an even worste position to be heard, leaving them with a cruel dilema. I said "in a certain way" because unless you start playin full solo and stay away of the politics, there is no way that you will remain "untouched". By leaving for such a drastic reason, you chose to be completely govern by the legit/non-legit problem: this will completely control your behaviour toward the various players in-game..
I had a voice? I made some strong opinions of issues to be addressed and others followed. One fell swoop my voice was not even part of the equation anymore and told to accept the judgement of stronger clan or leave.
/sarcasim on
Sounds like democracy at work to me >.>
/sarcasim off
I hope you will find the necessary fun in it to keep playing, because I couldn't and that's why I left for several months and only came back with this one rule in mind: I play legit and I support any legit behaviour within my clan/alliance.. this means that I will not try to convice a cheater to go legit, this fight is dull.. but i'll do my best to enforce legit behaviour/thinking as much as I can.
Alpha of course the game going to lose appeal if way ur seeking ur goals dont feed u the pride and satifaction it should. Just think people give up too easily and put their faith in others they normally would work with. I get bored cause always ends up success falls on someone else shoulders. When I should stop wasting my time and build my own success.
In a way, I'm applying one the first rules of the "original" cheaters: infiltrate the legit and slowly but slightly show them the benefit of cheat. Though, my "fight" is on another level: you can't beat a cheater at the "effectiveness" contest, especially with the NCsoft "8+2=? " anti-cheat policy... but you can at last show and explain that there are many legit ways to get either items or xp in this game. Succeful Raids are a powerful example in that regard: most ebayers will think twice if they realize that 1 raid per night could fairly easily equip them and their buddies.. at no cost and for way much more un and action that a "ebay" or "plvling" option. You also can show them the level of trust a legit play can bring: fairly easier to trust a guys who played the same acount for 2 years than the one who change names every months.
I believe this server is dying due lack of choices, cause they always jump on board the cheaters/power bandwagon then break into peices. I dont know about u but I am really tired of jumping from clan to clan and starting from scratch all over again.
This post is have people stop jumping on that band wagon and start thinking for themselves. I really hate how this server divided only in 3 ways: SP, ASP, Neutral. I know I promoted that way and I made my appology for it. I like promote alliances having their own principles and sticking to them, might be weak today but over time can become strong. Then no longer SP/Avalon, but SP/Avalon/ other alliances.
By leaving Avalon, you forbit yourself to help us bringing such legit and healty behaviour into the light. ;)
When you been betrayed by people u look up to, see how much desire u have to defend thous u call allies. Not to mention if your opinions differ from the players who pretty much shape the alliance, ur pretty much ignored or overlooked.
Also please dont stand up for legit players again, cause ";)" makes it seem ur gleeful about it.
Note: as long as Avalon is a mix, will can possibly get the best of the 2 worlds.. pvp experience, gameplay knowledge, fun and friendlyness atmosphere and trust!
I could make such good statement from that, but cause I still have friends in Avalon im not going to.
Split both and go back to pre-C3 situation.. Yep right, the perfect solution.
What is killing our side is precisely the lack of communication between legit and cheaters in our side, so keep separating them and you'll get even worth. what is killing us is precisely ppl wiling to see first what separates us rather than what we could bring to each others.
Thinking that a guys, who is used to ebay his gears and weapons whenever he wants, should go legit because.. because "cheat is bad", is a wrong fight. You'll manage to do one thing: burn yourself out and leave. On the other hand, fighting with them and in the long run proving them that united we can do stuff far more efficiently.. in a legit way (raid boss for example or pvp hunts, pve grinds ect..) and with lots of fun/action is far more effective.
What lots ppl fail to realise and prolly you too, is that an alliance such as SP, do not even need to ebay or severly cheat now! They got the power to legitly farm mobs for gears, the power to lvl-up their own clannies/allies in secured areas... they got tons of cash from the casttle or can simply reduce their opposition adena efficiency with the higher tax rates, ect..
So yep, go split the non-SP and say bye bye to the opportunity of reconciliation between legit and cheaters.. good job, indeed. Like I said, there are far more important things that defines our side versus SP side than the old and already lost battle of legit/non-legit.
I agree with Tali's observation.
There is very slim chance that successful unification of the legits and nonlegits, just so it keeps failing. Now it's not longer just Serverpolice but its ServerPolice and Disneyland. I noticed some of the players used be against SP are now joining up, cause their tired of self imploding alliances that keep being formed.
Another thing about separation of types of players, nothing wrong with alliances splitting by their personalities. Life can exist thru multiple alliances. Each alliance can use its strengths to leverage deals with other alliances. Instead of clans making themselves powerless in hopes of table scraps.
Good example, Rebellion looked down on lack of Avalon's support to defend Aden. Avalon helped Rebellion gain the castle, but for what? Only difference was wasnt SP clan holding it, so why should another alliance aide others for free? Can leverage of lowering the taxes, portion of what Aden collecting, or some other incentive for support. Instead ended up all alone and lost to SP.
I see seiges and such for other servers, keep thinking what are we missing out on? I believe there is more foritude in sticking with thous who share the same personality in the long haul over these 'pasted together over night' alliances.
It totally breaks the general idea of the OP, it's a pain to read, sticks too much to the details and also a real agressive way to "debate".
Would you rephrase each sentences of the person you are talking to "IRL", in order to make your points? I hope not.
That said,
You are first completely mistaken if you think that as legit we have a chance to win any serious fights against whoever in game.. not with the current "anti-cheat' policy of NCsoft. You are seriously wrong to even remotely believe that a cheater who is enjoying the game to its fullest, in every ways possible for 2 years now, will go back to legit behaviour for no reasons. As long as they think and see that cheating is a seriously viable way to play (ppl get ban then back to their original lvls in 3 months max... ), we legit players are facing several solutions: forget about high/medium end content (castle sieges, raid, pvp) , quit or try to influence cheaters.
I tried (no: I am trying) the last one because I believe in what I've explained in my other posts above: if we can simply slow down the ebay/cheats.. well that's enought for me. You know why ? Because I frakking play full legit since day one in prelude and I've seen the majority of the community going from "omg, you ebayed: go away" to "well who did not ebay, bot, plvl?". I've been in so many of your so called "legit alliance" to know that they do not exist, i've seen so many legit going the cheat way that for me indeed, the slightest chance of limiting or slowing down this process is a complete success.
Sad, it certainly is but I am not responsible of Ncsoft legit enforcement: if the same frakking bot party keeps running on the same spot for months, if the same cheaters keeps getting stronger and stronger, if the economy keeps getting totally crazy.. it's not because of me or my "inactivity" as a legit, let alone my.. how you named it... oh, yeah: "gleeful" behaviour. Man were you a TPC? Can you imagine seeing your ex alliance leader.. the very one who promote and fight for legit play, bought by the opposing forces and fighting you at a siege? Have you ever seen the original TSA at its best, slowly but surely going the cheat way because they coudn't keep up with the opponent's cheats? If you were a lvl 30 "soon to be summoner" with a Tears of Eva in prelude and had the offer to be fully top D geared and unlimited fund, would you refuse it.. because I certainly did. Do you know someone else, refusing a Top C clan crafted staff because leveling with his lower middle C weapon is more economically viable? Did you even read my posts above?
And you have the guts to judge me legit or not now..
Note: if you ever wanted a reason to fight SP, this one worth what it is but at last it's mine: friends being griefed and ganked by them since prelude, strong participation in cheat advertisements and of course for those who came up in C4 : everyone needs an opposition to fight.
### EDIT #####
Cortex posted a nice little definition in L2pet.. dunno if you have read it but I do think this trully fit your current behaviour, I don't hate you for your choice but I will not accept being insulted by you on that subjet... take it as you want.
*Elitism is a belief or attitude that an elite — a selected group of persons whose personal abilities, specialized training or other attributes place them at the top of any field — are the people whose views on a matter are to be taken most seriously, or who are alone fit to govern. Elites may also treat others as not being good enough to be their companions. Thus elitism sees an elite as occupying a special position of authority or privilege in a group, set apart from the majority of people who do not match up with their abilities or attributes. Thus this selected elite is treated with favouritism. Members of an inherited elite are aristocrats and naturally tend towards preserving the status quo.
The problem between legits and non-legits isn't about legits not liking non-legits, it's about non-legits not tollerating legits.
That non-legits are allowed to continue botting or ebaying is besides the point - that's how the game is and if NCSoft wants to tollerate some bots and not others, that's what we have to learn how to live with.
But as long as people as those who were in defy, spacecadets and other similar clans will have no respect for their allies, then ASP will be doomed to fail.
And as long as those same clans continue greefing/pking even more than what SP does, nobody's going to want to put up with them with very long.
Those ubber-clans have been the ruin of the a-sp side, because they're not strong enough to pose a serious opposition to SP, yet the ASP side has to do a lot of sacrifices with no change in the end.
If they wanted to play the goodie-lil-two-shoes card, they could've lowered the taxes like has been the case on other servers. They also could've helped other clans and alliances out who help them in return.
It's not that hard, really. Even with having a newbie castle like Innadril, Aesir managed to give over 10m of scrolls to our old alliance. Strong clans like defy and spacecadets should help make the other clans on their side as strong as they are, not try and put them down and break them apart like they do.
Anyways, that's why I switched sides. I'm tired of a few selfish people who try and bring the ASP side down whenever it starts doing good. The coalition was doing allright, but then HKizzle came and took control of it. Avalon would've had the chances of being a good alliance, but they took rebelion in with them. And if we go back in history, we can find quite a few alliances that got destroyed because of the same individuals.
But how some alliance leaders are willing to let their alliance die off so they can have the "honor" of saying they had a ubber-clan in their alliance for the few weeks it lasted before they brought it down is really worth a lot of laughs.
I'm just glad that for once I can laugh from a distance as yet an other alliance of decent people comes crashing because they let an ubber-clan take control of them.
But as long as people as those who were in defy, spacecadets and other similar clans will have no respect for their allies, then ASP will be doomed to fail.
Spacecadets has always been a legit clan, never bots or plvls and respects their allies. People have joined recently who may go against our code, but they will be joining another clan shortly.
If you talk of SpaceCadets and Aesir we hate you because you are scamming, bottting, backstabbing weasles and idiots like you have just proven in your post. you will do anything for a castle and will backstab and scam anyone you meet. lets see... how many alliances have you hopped just for a castle... start with the drunks, then the "co-alition" ........ now flag or die? 2 of which you backstabbed.
I havent managed to read all the posts here as there is a heck of alot or writing, lol but my opinion is...
.... If people want to cheat, let them, it is their game they play how they want. I don't cheat, but I sure as hell don't mind when I get backup off a cheater to kill a cheater from SP. As long as your clan is clean and people know you are there is nothing to worry about.
There is no point in making a stand and wageing war against people who play the game differently to you as it puts you out of your way and makes no good at all. There is nothing good going to come out of you leaving a clan you like becuase someone who plays differently comes in your alliance.
I don't think the problem only comes from cheaters not respecting the legit players, it also comes from the legit players having a holyier than thou attitude towards the cheaters.
You go and get killed by countless botted SP nukers with top gear, how can you fight it? unless you are a herdcore grinder and fit 10 hrs of perfect parties in a day it is going to take years to be able to compete. I play pretty hardcore and usually group for 5-9 hrs a day with a perfect party (BD / SWS / archers / healer) and take pride in the fact that I have earned every tiny % I have made on all my charecters. I won't turn around and say, well this player cheated so I can't speak to him. It just gets us nowhere.
I think the reason SP is so strong is the fact that they just said "we bot, we E-Bay, We leech, we cheat, we grief, what U gonna do?" Without having these stupid holier than thou attitudes that split the server SP can focus on working as an alliance and don't give a **** about their image.
Imagine Erica as the backdrop for a cheezy 80 teens movie, like "The Breakfast Club." (DISCLAIMER: NO, I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT WE OR YOU ARE LIKE IN RL - JUST THAT I THINK THAT THE FOLLOWING ANALOGY IS FUNNY.)
Erica as "The Breakfast Club"
SP is Judd Nelson's character. We're the guys that take everyone's lunch money and smoke cigarettes behind the gym. SP also cheats on their tests, and we don't really care about anything except each other.
Defy is Emilio Estevez
Defy are the jocks. While Defy occasionally does bad things just like SP (like cheat on their exams or pick on the weaker people at the school), at least they actually fight against SP. Defy also wears tights. (LOL. I had to throw that in there.)
Jamin is Anthony Michael Hall's character from Breakfast Club. He never cheats on his exams, but he has no idea why he's in detention with the Jocks and Hoods.
Divine Strength is Ally Sheedy's weird girl character. Both the jocks and the hoods think she's a weirdo.
Iegacy is Molly Ringwald. She's all goody-goody and prim and proper at first ("Blah, blah, blah, we don't bot, eBay, etc.), but deep-down, everyone knows that she's a dirty-girl.
Spacecadets has always been a legit clan, never bots or plvls and respects their allies. People have joined recently who may go against our code, but they will be joining another clan shortly.
If you talk of SpaceCadets and Aesir we hate you because you are scamming, bottting, backstabbing weasles and idiots like you have just proven in your post. you will do anything for a castle and will backstab and scam anyone you meet. lets see... how many alliances have you hopped just for a castle... start with the drunks, then the "co-alition" ........ now flag or die? 2 of which you backstabbed.
Thanks for bringing up the drunks example about backstabbing. We didn't backstab them to get a castle, they backstabbed us by throwing us out at hk's request right before a siege.
As for the coalition, again at HK's request they let Innadril fall in order to give it away to BL which later turned out backstabbing ASP pretty badly.
Aesir did not backstab anyone when we left the coalition, actually we left at the transition between the coalition under BBH reign and then ASP under hkizzle's reign. If you knew 10% of what was really going on you'd be surprised that Aesir didn't REALLY backstab the coalition when we left, because I can assure you that if there wouldn't have been at least a few decent clans on the ASP side, I can assure you Aesir would've been quite more devastating to it.
ASP made their choice very clear between Aesir and HK+defy+spacecadets and history proves once again that I wasn't that far off the mark when I said that allying with you guys wouldn't bring anything good, unless you're an archeologist and you love finding alliances in rubbles.
Although I like sdog's post and I guess we can say it's the jocks vs nerds war - except spacecadets/defy/etc decided to wage it on nerd territory instead of in gym class ;)
Hmm, I don't have a clue what you're babbling on about innandril. As far as I can remember you'd already pmed 0mfg offering to give him info if you could join SP.
I really enjoy taking you for 4% XP loss atm, how come you're still only 64, Chineese had some time off? it's funny how you guys follow every alliance (or clan now) that will give you a castle. FoD is a worthless clan and so was Aesir, scammers, botters and backstabbers, why don't you just join playa's clan "PureAndSimple" I've heard they run nice trains and scam alot too, you'd all fit right in.
Lol, I only now saw he joined FoD. ****, talking about making bad choices. I wonder how long till you realise that FoD was doomed from the beginning. From the moment Acid joined DisneyLand alliance he has been recruiting every SP-wannabe he could find (incluiding you apparently). As a result the people in his clan are not loyal to the clan, they are loyal to SP. And seeing how SP doesn't really want FoD...
I think the reason SP is so strong is the fact that they just said "we bot, we E-Bay, We leech, we cheat, we grief, what U gonna do?" Without having these stupid holier than thou attitudes that split the server SP can focus on working as an alliance and don't give a **** about their image.
I disagree, I think SP is strong and stable cause they recruit players that fit with their mindset, cheater/pvpers + legits who don't mind cheaters. If member has a problem with their way they can leave, hence no drama. Also they didn't become this big over night, started small and recruited slowly. Now not only is their alliance is strong and solid, but they have a second alliance to help recruit other players.
I don't like SP due I disagree with one alliance ruling all, but im not going use my old hatred to blind myself from seeing how one side is being successful. Not about cheating and stuff, but holding together such a large amount of players for so long.
I left Avalon cause higher ups over night complete switched the management style and process of recruiting by leaving my clan in the dark. When I first joined Avalon it looked like it was learning from prior mistakes under Fuz's guidance. Then it turned into the PWN alliance which I really don't care to be a part of. I don't tolerate injustices anymore, I rather make my own unity.
*Elitism is a belief or attitude that an elite — a selected group of persons whose personal abilities, specialized training or other attributes place them at the top of any field — are the people whose views on a matter are to be taken most seriously, or who are alone fit to govern. Elites may also treat others as not being good enough to be their companions. Thus elitism sees an elite as occupying a special position of authority or privilege in a group, set apart from the majority of people who do not match up with their abilities or attributes. Thus this selected elite is treated with favouritism. Members of an inherited elite are aristocrats and naturally tend towards preserving the status quo.
I see my own attitude challenged here.
The first part of this definition seems about accurate. but I guess most people would have known that much about the meaning of the world "elite"/"elitism" off hand.
The second part is mere opinion, generalisation and prejudice. I don't consider myself an aristocrate or conservative (one would have to make a difinition about those two expressions anyway, they are not as clear) but quite the opposite. Freedom is a good thing, but not every freedom. From a cheaters point of view I might be overly conservative... but considering how the freedom to cheat does not fit the current game world (ever had trouble with bots?) I'll strictly stick to my opinion that the rules in this game were invented for a good reason and should be respected.
Was a bit off-topic... please go on the with server-politics, very interesting read. :)
It totally breaks the general idea of the OP, it's a pain to read, sticks too much to the details and also a real agressive way to "debate".
Would you rephrase each sentences of the person you are talking to "IRL", in order to make your points? I hope not.
off topic for just a sec;
I appologize if I offended you. I think could have better worded that. You believe in that philosophy on how to play, but instead of staying true to urself, u are in a mode of self defeatism.
My comment also about how if I tried to speak out my mind about mixing legits with nonlegits, but instead of a compremise or making rules that create a harmony between the two side. Thous who share my views are just blaitenly tossed out of the equation all together. Then you can throw in the "tolerate" factor, thats not unity thats BS. Means my views and thous who share it DOES NOT MATTER to them. I can either give up what i believe and lie to myself thinking I am appart of something greator, or I can find/create place where I do matter.
Lets stay on topic thou, if u wish persue this further Alpha pm me plz.
Tolerance is indeed BS. If you "tolerate" someone it means (at least to me) that you do not like him, do not accept him and do not respect him. You're only patient and hope he goes away.
Tolerance is not what alliances are made of. Tolerance is better than open hatred, but for improvement, growth and strength a community needs more than tolerance.
And seeing how there are people who don't even want to tolerate cheating for obvious reasons... I'm not too surprised we don't get things worked out against SP.
Cal
PS: SP does not stand for tolerance either. What keeps them together (except for the core which has respect, acceptance and trust for eachother) is oppression and fear. Which has to be constantly fueled by success.
Hum, sorry but you should honestly read what the idea of tolerance is, one of the common mistake is to refer to respect instead. I wonder if you guys realise how violent a declaration such as "tolerance means BS" is?
I hate to do this but here what you can find under Wikipedia:
Tolerance is a social, cultural and religious term applied to the collective and individual practice of not persecuting those who may believe, behave or act in ways of which one may not approve. It is closely related to the political concept of toleration. Authoritarian systems practice intolerance, the opposite of tolerance. Tolerance is seen as a more widely acceptable term than "acceptance" and particularly "respect," where the application to controversial parties is concerned. Respect has two quite distinct meanings which are often confused to the detriment of commonsense: see respect. Tolerance implies both the ability to punish and the conscious decision not to. It is usually applied to non-violent, consensual behavior, often involving religion, sex, or politics. It rarely permits violent behavior.
In the wider sociological sense, "tolerance" carries with it the understanding that "intolerance" and conformity breeds violence and social instability. "Tolerance" has thus become the social term of choice to define the practical rationale of permitting uncommon social practice and diversity. One only tolerates people who are disliked for their differences. While people deemed undesirable may be disapproved of, "tolerance" would require that the party or group in question be left undisturbed, physically or otherwise, and that criticism directed toward them be free of inflammatory or inciteful efforts.
With this in mind, it appears that you found cheaters way too dangerous for your own in-game survival to even tolerate them into your alliance, while I found cheaters way too diverse and I find myself sufficiently protected from cheats.. to "tolerate" them.
- By tolerating cheaters into my alliance, do I show submission to them?
Absolutely not: to be "tolerant" means to freely chose.. which is something you cannot expect when you are submitted (you are not free of our decisions).
- By tolerating them, does it mean that I approuve them?
Not at all and that is preciselly what the idea of tolerance is: to admit the variety of gameplay legit or not without necessarilly approuving them.
- On the other way, tolerance is an idea that can only be applied to those that respect it. Why ?
Because the idea of total and complete tolerance is impossible as it bring its own desctuction: if you tolerate the intolerable, you will then lead to the disparition of tolerance.. vicious circle.
-> There are indeed necessary limitations to tolerance.
The majority of the players in Avalon have accepted to tolerate the other type of gamers: as long as both group, agreed and show tolerance to each others.. we will indeed work as one. If tomorrow, one of the 2 groups becomes intolerant toward the other, then the stability created by our common tolerance will indeed be broken.
In a certain way, you made the best choice for the alliance: as long as you were an intolerant ally.. you kept threatening our common agreement.. now that you are no more an Avalon, your intolerance (toward the cheaters) do not threaten our alliance stability.
The majority of the players in Avalon have accepted to tolerate the other type of gamers: as long as both group, agreed and show tolerance to each others.. we will indeed work as one. If tomorrow, one of the 2 groups becomes intolerant toward the other, then the stability created by our common tolerance will indeed be broken.
In a certain way, you made the best choice for the alliance: as long as you were an intolerant ally.. you kept threatening our common agreement.. now that you are no more an Avalon, your intolerance (toward the cheaters) do not threaten our alliance stability.
I agree completely. My issue with Avalon is when SF first started dicussions to join, that what u have discribed was not what I was told. After all the BS and Avalon turned into what u just discribed, yes I left.
On topic, no crap. Alpha that is what ur alliance is. Stay true to urself and build off of what u have now. Just don't go false advertising to players such as myself.
EDIT:
- By tolerating cheaters into my alliance, do I show submission to them?
Absolutely not: to be "tolerant" means to freely chose.. which is something you cannot expect when you are submitted (you are not free of our decisions).
Means u givin up cause lack of enforcement as stated and thats understandible. Nothing u feel u can do about it, so simply deal with it or ignore it. Not the only one who thinks like this and u accepted this nature. So hell be proud about it then, say yeah my clan doesnt mind cheaters as long they dont have reputation of griefing or something. Just if u keep saying I dont believe in cheating, and members join with the same additude. Then they see their allies sitting next to farmer group leeching exp and they start raising concerns.
Make sure u recruit players that think like u do, that accepts the way it is then u wont have drama problems at all.
Yeah in my case I do not tolerate it. Yeah I have worked with cheaters, guided by my blind hatred towards SP. During the whole time turned my stomach knowing I had to defend such players. Some players just don't like cheating, cause just saps away the challenge and energy from achievements cause they werent real. This has been my mentality far before Lineage 2.
So im going to stay true to myself and go my own way. Tell players who I am and what I do not tolerate cheaters within my clan and alliance. If they wish to cheat and such I would be more than glad to mention quite alot clans that suit them better.
Well I hope this dicussion will help current and future clans/alliances grow the right way. Cheating or no.
Hmm, I don't have a clue what you're babbling on about innandril. As far as I can remember you'd already pmed 0mfg offering to give him info if you could join SP.
I really enjoy taking you for 4% XP loss atm, how come you're still only 64, Chineese had some time off? it's funny how you guys follow every alliance (or clan now) that will give you a castle. FoD is a worthless clan and so was Aesir, scammers, botters and backstabbers, why don't you just join playa's clan "PureAndSimple" I've heard they run nice trains and scam alot too, you'd all fit right in.
The more I hear the accusation of Aesir being willing to give information to SP if they'd taken us, the more I wonder what kind of information there would've been to give in the first place. Really afraid we'd give out info such as which clans and alliances were in the coalition? Or maybe how pathetic the coalition did in raids? Other than a password protected ventrilo that the ip wouldn't be usefull at all without a username/password, I don't see at all what info ANYONE could want.
I could understand the use of an active spy to know where people will register at for sieges and where people are hunting at, but since those plans can change everyday, there's no info we had that could've been of any use to anyone in the first place.
As far as me still being 64, I haven't felt motivated in leveling up lately, so other than spending a few hours every two weeks regaining the 5-6% ASP makes me lose, chances are you won't see Taliesyn logged in very much. Maybe it'll chance once I get inside an alliance where the clan I'm in doesn't represent at least 50% of the alliance buff targets.
So because I tolerate playing with possible cheaters in my alliance, I become less legit.. Ok sure why not?
Let me now open you vision of this issue a little then: why do we limit this to an alliance?
If you do consider yourself as a legit in such extreme way, you should have realized that by simply opposing SP, you are indeed interacting with cheaters. How, why? Simple: by opposing them, you give cheaters reasons to keep botting/plvling and give them exactly what they need and want, which is an opposition, pvp and drama. Indirectly, you and all the extreme legits that fights them, are keeping the farmer's demand high, are keeping an interest to botting and plvling... you are precisely giving ammo to the very thing you so strongly and blindly oppose... no, let me use your own words: the very thing you blindly "hate"!
In other words, if you keep interacting with cheaters (ie: fighting SP or any suspected cheaters) you are becoming less of an extreme legit as well!
I suppose that now you understand where this leads?
If you want to be the extreme legit that you are claiming to be, you have few solutions: stop fooling yourself and cease completely to give what cheaters want - interaction. For that, you can be clanless (what you are now?) or you can enter a clan that do not play or interact with cheaters. Such extreme legit clans should be neutral by design (the 2 side are filled by “evil cheaters”) and should also pvp but only other extreme legit clans.
I had a friend like you, that I completely respected: we were both legit to the max.. even 2 boxing was a cheat for us. The difference is that, in his eyes, a true legit meant to be dependant of no one: so he refused even us, helping him out for crafting his stuff.. While I was more in a “I accept your help only if I can help you in a similar way”.
In C3, he and I came to the very same conclusion:
1-Ncsoft’s inaction after 2 year: cheats will never stop or decrease.
2-There is no way to be a true legit in L2 (playing solo in a mmorp is pointless, siege and pvp are part of this game
He couldn’t tolerate cheaters - I could. He left L2, deleted his 70+ toons (the first legit 70 sorc I knew in C3), I left for few month and came back with my vision.
To me, there were a "greater good" that allowed me to tolerate interaction with cheaters, a greater good that overcame completely the moral aspect of cheating:
- An opportunity to prove cheaters that there are effective ways to play legit in L2's high end content - The strongest point in the long term, that none of the “extreme legit” would ever try.
- On a personal level, this bring me the “adrenaline” of being part of an active movement.. because don’t make it sound that in Avalon, cheaters behaviour = SP cheater behaviour: I’ve never been invited in a Avalon bot party, never seen any walking party in our alliance events (raids or pvp).. while you would not say the same from SP.
- A healthier competition throughout the server - Compared to the "non-interaction" solution (we, legit, tried it in C2 already.. result: Erica's fall.. ppl leaving, them being legit or not)
- An alliance that focus on things its clans have in common instead of what separates them.
- Less food for drama.
- The possibility to speak with cheaters and hear their point of view (we mainly all agree on the ends.. only the means differ: before proposing a legit solution, you got to understand their points)
So, now what you have left today as a legit, extreme or not:
1 – Try your solution (segregation), one that has been applied for absolute no results in 2 years.. well for the exact opposite result in fact.
2- Try my solution (toleration), one that has never been truly applied so far.. but seeing how well Avalon is doing, I believe that this is far from a dead end.
Keep being the predictable legit Sdog seems to chat too if you want.. I prefer my legit way.
lol, nice view your friend had of doing everything solo as this is a teamwork based game designed so peopel MUST help each other out.
There is no legit in l2, it is meant to be a harsh world allowing for scamming griefing and general dishonesty. If you want to enjoy the game you simply have to forget about how other people play and just play your own way if people cheat, it doesn't change who they are and the only person losing out by not working alongside them is you.
I won't go as far as saying that there are no legit in L2, or any other game..
I would however strongly disagree with the extreme legit way that can only be achieved through means that completely opposed to MMORPG's game philosophie: interactions.
So because I tolerate playing with possible cheaters in my alliance, I become less legit.. Ok sure why not?
Let me now open you vision of this issue a little then: why do we limit this to an alliance?
If you do consider yourself as a legit in such extreme way, you should have realized that by simply opposing SP, you are indeed interacting with cheaters. How, why? Simple: by opposing them, you give cheaters reasons to keep botting/plvling and give them exactly what they need and want, which is an opposition, pvp and drama. Indirectly, you and all the extreme legits that fights them, are keeping the farmer's demand high, are keeping an interest to botting and plvling... you are precisely giving ammo to the very thing you so strongly and blindly oppose... no, let me use your own words: the very thing you blindly "hate"!
In other words, if you keep interacting with cheaters (ie: fighting SP or any suspected cheaters) you are becoming less of an extreme legit as well!
I suppose that now you understand where this leads?
If you want to be the extreme legit that you are claiming to be, you have few solutions: stop fooling yourself and cease completely to give what cheaters want - interaction. For that, you can be clanless (what you are now?) or you can enter a clan that do not play or interact with cheaters. Such extreme legit clans should be neutral by design (the 2 side are filled by “evil cheaters”) and should also pvp but only other extreme legit clans.
I had a friend like you, that I completely respected: we were both legit to the max.. even 2 boxing was a cheat for us. The difference is that, in his eyes, a true legit meant to be dependant of no one: so he refused even us, helping him out for crafting his stuff.. While I was more in a “I accept your help only if I can help you in a similar way”.
In C3, he and I came to the very same conclusion:
1-Ncsoft’s inaction after 2 year: cheats will never stop or decrease.
2-There is no way to be a true legit in L2 (playing solo in a mmorp is pointless, siege and pvp are part of this game
He couldn’t tolerate cheaters - I could. He left L2, deleted his 70+ toons (the first legit 70 sorc I knew in C3), I left for few month and came back with my vision.
To me, there were a "greater good" that allowed me to tolerate interaction with cheaters, a greater good that overcame completely the moral aspect of cheating:
- An opportunity to prove cheaters that there are effective ways to play legit in L2's high end content - The strongest point in the long term, that none of the “extreme legit” would ever try.
- On a personal level, this bring me the “adrenaline” of being part of an active movement.. because don’t make it sound that in Avalon, cheaters behaviour = SP cheater behaviour: I’ve never been invited in a Avalon bot party, never seen any walking party in our alliance events (raids or pvp).. while you would not say the same from SP.
- A healthier competition throughout the server - Compared to the "non-interaction" solution (we, legit, tried it in C2 already.. result: Erica's fall.. ppl leaving, them being legit or not)
- An alliance that focus on things its clans have in common instead of what separates them.
- Less food for drama.
- The possibility to speak with cheaters and hear their point of view (we mainly all agree on the ends.. only the means differ: before proposing a legit solution, you got to understand their points)
So, now what you have left today as a legit, extreme or not:
1 – Try your solution (segregation), one that has been applied for absolute no results in 2 years.. well for the exact opposite result in fact.
2- Try my solution (toleration), one that has never been truly applied so far.. but seeing how well Avalon is doing, I believe that this is far from a dead end.
Keep being the predictable legit Sdog seems to chat too if you want.. I prefer my legit way.
So I should just stay in giran as shop mode and never interact with erica again due my legit ways?
Think ur making long stretch to make a point. I play this game, play my own way and I look for thous who share that way. I promote others to do so but not to lie about who they really are.
Weither I like it or not, I have to interact with SP/Avalon and any other alliance that has cheating or not. Does it mean I have to quit my principles just to fit in? Maybe easier that way, but I'm too stubbern to go back that way.
Alpha just stay true to urself and enjoy working with who u accept, and be proud of it. Thous players that u accept for their cheating are helping u grow strong which is great. Just dont go saying I believe in playing purely legit and attract thos such myself just to realize that u really dont believe that legit play works. I know it sounds like an insult, but idea is keep from having unnessary drama. Drama is destroyer of alliances and clans, which has been plaguing our side since day one.
I don't think any low of u over this Alpha, still think ur a kick ***** ES.
EDIT:
Sorry was in a rush to read and get out the door lol want to change my comment since reread the last part of ur post Alpha.
So, now what you have left today as a legit, extreme or not:
1 – Try your solution (segregation), one that has been applied for absolute no results in 2 years.. well for the exact opposite result in fact.
2- Try my solution (toleration), one that has never been truly applied so far.. but seeing how well Avalon is doing, I believe that this is far from a dead end.
Disclaimer: Yes I know I was all tied up in this war. And one who promoted my side.
Simple, I don't believe my ingame life revolves around the great SP sun. I know they set the standards for castle taxes & manors, but I don't pay $15 a month to fight SP. I pay that money to play the game as I see fit. If I want make a roleplay guild, a DE/Orc only guild, or a guild based on how I play this is my decission and no one elses. Ultimately if these guilds want to take part of the fun aspect of seiging and war, we can enter it at any time since it's never ending.
SP wants action, Avalon wants action, other guilds want their own goals. Shouldnt have to summit our principles and our goals to make others happy.
I can understand if big 2 alliances disagree with me, but thats perfectly fine. Just I tried it ur way and I almost quit few times cause I felt like I was lying to myself. I maybe clan lvl1 with 2 members, but by god I am happy being this way, my way.
Because the idea of total and complete tolerance is impossible as it bring its own desctuction: if you tolerate the intolerable, you will then lead to the disparition of tolerance.. vicious circle.
-> There are indeed necessary limitations to tolerance.
That is the most important part of your definition.
If you are too tolerant and forget about the reasons you will have no tolerance at all.
Why don't cheaters tolerate my right to play in a bot free world for 15$ a month? Why don't they respect my right to play my class to the extend the original game design would allow it? Why can't they accept that there might be other funny things to do in this game besides reaching lvl 78 as fast as possible to PVP all day?
Ignoring problems is NOT tolerance!
You (and everyone else whos left in L2) simply got so used to the severe problems this game suffers, you don't care anymore. Just because you don't care doesn't mean you are tolerant. Ignorance and tolerance are not far from eachother and you're walking on that thin line, alpha. With good intentions I admit, but most of the really severe mistakes are made in good intentions.
You're right, everyone who's not ignorant enough should simply quit. Not because of oh so high morals, but because this is not the game that was advertised on the box.
Either that or find your own niche to enjoy whats left of the game that L2 was advertised to be. I live in a dream-world? Yes... and you?
Why don't cheaters tolerate my right to play in a bot free world for 15$ a month? Why don't they respect my right to play my class to the extend the original game design would allow it? Why can't they accept that there might be other funny things to do in this game besides reaching lvl 78 as fast as possible to PVP all day?
None of those are actual "rights." NCSoft never gave you or guaranteed you any of those so-called rights, and other people on Erica sure as hell didn't either. The only right you have is being able to log in; beyond that, you're going to have to secure your own rights and priviliges with your in-game actions.
LOL, I just thought how stupid you lot really are.
"I'm going to play this game 100% legit and try and kill the bad people who cheat."
1. Destroy all of your weapons and armor, if you crafted them then the mats were probably farmed by a bot. Don't buy from any of the towns... just don't buy anything total. The gear used to take the castle was probably involved with bots or farmers somewhere in it's life, let alone the alliance / clan / participants in the siege cheating sometime in the game. Don't use soulshots, spiritshots or potions... can only get the key mats from shops, shops > castles > players wearing gear took castle > gear made from mats > mats from bots.
2. I won't fight players, I only want to fight bots. ROFL, why? Because bots don't generally hit back and you're scared to lose XP.. carebear.
3. players who bot (not farmers) tend to have their support classes or maybe main on auto hunt and so on. This is the same as 2 boxing and normal hunting, just reduces the carpel tunnel syndrome risk that comes with playing 10 hrs a day. Farmers are the ones taking XP spots, causing problems, and setting prices high (well prices are 20% SP too).
4. The only way to compete against a cheat is to either spend insane amounts of time lvling (I spend waaay too much time playing) or cheat. some can't **** the pace so cheat. You make an alliance strong enough to beat SP by including only legit players......
5. I don't cheat, that's all I need to know, if people want to cheat I don't care, it's them taking the risk. Why are you so holy that they don't deserve your friendship? I bet 90% of you XP and gear has something to do with bots, wether its through buying from shops or mats or whatever.
Then accept that other legits preferred to be guided through their playtime by the interaction factor rather than the idealistic legit one. What I'm trying to tell is that after 2 years of the legit segregation system, I need to try something else because above all, their is that L2 features I want to experience to its full extent.
Our clan could have stayed solo, after all we were already at war with the main SP clans before entering Avalon but we happen to all be willing to be part of a bigger structure to experience the other main features of L2 games which are mass pvp, Raid boss hunts, ect.. a challenge that was not necessarily "better" than what we were doing solo but at last different. I've been playing this solo toon of mine for too long to be willing to play solo again for the sole benefit of an extreme legit behaviour.. as long as the possible cheaters in Avalon keep agreeing to our terms (for example: not coming up at a pvp with botted buffers, inviting you in bot party, offering you plvling services), I will agree to their terms as well (not constantly referring to legit play, not harass them about how bad this is to the game, not considering them as allies).
Not to mention the “collaboration” factor with NCsoft:
Yes, I admit.. I am freaking tired of trying to determine who’s legit and who is not among my friends or foes. I am tired to do the police officer in this game! You mentioned paying 15$, well I am not paid to play the role of the GMs.. So I admit, when I go solo hunt and cross the many bot parties (they are even more numerous now than ever) , I don’t even bother to petition NCsoft. The reason is that I do not accept to play the collaborator role, maybe it’s partly due to French history during 2nd world war.. but you should be aware that we strongly refrain ourselves to collaborate with official representatives (police, tax, ect..) call it a paradox for a country that believe in strong governments structures.. That’s directly due to the French **** collaborators: even today the word “collaborator” is a total insult in France. So yes, when I see Ncsoft’s note, asking to me, a player, to spy on my fellow players, even for valid reasons, I am all but proud to submit to it!
I find such request completely despicable: if NCsoft wants to get rid of cheats, they should do it themselves instead of creating such unhealthy environment between players.
Finally, I honestly think that you are fighting a pre-Chronicle3 war here:
Your behaviour was the right thing to do at that moment, when both the majority of the players were legit and the cheaters feared NCsoft bans policy. Now with NCsoft proving every day that you can cheat to the highest with absolutely no repercussions whatsoever and the majority of remaining players having cheated at last once in their in-game life: this is an out-dated war.
Yes, sadly being an extreme legit can only be possible in L2 either by ceasing any interaction with suspected cheaters or quitting the game for good.
Note that this can only be reversed by NCsoft enforcement's policy alone: cheats is out of legits hands nowadays
########### For Cal #########
Finally someone who understand what is at stake here.. even though partially.
I was waiting for this remark for some time now and you could refer to some of the points I have mentioned above.
Basically, the limits of my tolerance are within what you said:
As long as the possible cheaters in Avalon keeps it "for them" that limit wont be crossed: so far, I haven't seen any of them advertising cheats in clan chat, I have never been invited by a party-bot, never seen any bot buffers in our alliance events (raid boss, mass pvp)... unlike those of the opposising side mind you. I have also never seen any of the "suspected" cheat clans behaving against our policy: they do not grief, they do not pk non-SP toons, do not insult Avalons low levels or respect our PvEers, ect.. Of course the limit of my tolerance are also written into my clan leaders decision: if tomorrow DcD leadership decided to leave Avalon, no matter the reasons or my own "feeling", I will follow them.
I'm not saying that all is good in our alliance and that I strongly support everything they decide -if you were an Avalon, you would even know that it is far from it judging by my recent posts btw - but at ast our current issues are the one any other big succeful structure has to face. That my friend is a true in-game achievement and a good sign considering the amount of exhausting drama I was used by all the other alliances I've been is, which comes from the very begining of the 1st Oren Siege to now. ;)
I thought I'd rather use some drastic words to underline my point, most people seem to forget that this game has rules and most of them totally make sense to me.
I'm not that kind of person that obeys rules because "someone up there" told me to do so, but because it's better for everyone. Anyone in his right mind wouldn't even go into that discussion wether cheating is good or bad or must be ignored, it is bad, for everyone, but most L2-players are complete nut-cases and ignore common sense in general. :p
I don't want everything on a silver platter. I'm totally willing to fight for my hunting grounds, for my castle and for my chance to attempt the lvl 75 raid bosses.
But I want it fair, I want it good, I want it as an accomplishment. L2 is a hardcore game. How the hell dare all those cheating weenies to even take that line into their potty mouths? Sure I could go and powerlevel my Necromancer and PVP you all day while the farmers get my XP back over night, but that game sucks! I can have CounterStrike for free!
It's bad enough that some people constantly try to give me a hard time while I'm playing my game although they don't even have the power to, from an ingame point of view. Even the ebayers on "my side" send bots into my hunting grounds. And anyone that sends bots to KS me is my enemy. But when those people come here and ask me for some tolerance for that behaviour, how I should change and play their game instead because it's oh so much more fun... geez... I need some fresh air.
It seems you all forgot what cheating means. It's not having a little shortcut to the +16 weapon which you would have gotten yourself eventually, it's not the little shortcut to lvl 78, which everyone reaches sooner or later...
It is constant bot terror, constant griefing, constant grinding and constant drama.
Then accept that other legits preferred to be guided through their playtime by the interaction factor rather than the idealistic legit one. What I'm trying to tell is that after 2 years of the legit segregation system, I need to try something else because above all, their is that L2 features I want to experience to its full extent.
Our clan could have stayed solo, after all we were already at war with the main SP clans before entering Avalon but we happen to all be willing to be part of a bigger structure to experience the other main features of L2 games which are mass pvp, Raid boss hunts, ect.. a challenge that was not necessarily "better" than what we were doing solo but at last different. I've been playing this solo toon of mine for too long to be willing to play solo again for the sole benefit of an extreme legit behaviour.. as long as the possible cheaters in Avalon keep agreeing to our terms (for example: not coming up at a pvp with botted buffers, inviting you in bot party, offering you plvling services), I will agree to their terms as well (not constantly referring to legit play, not harass them about how bad this is to the game, not considering them as allies).
Not to mention the “collaboration” factor with NCsoft:
Yes, I admit.. I am freaking tired of trying to determine who’s legit and who is not among my friends or foes. I am tired to do the police officer in this game! You mentioned paying 15$, well I am not paid to play the role of the GMs.. So I admit, when I go solo hunt and cross the many bot parties (they are even more numerous now than ever) , I don’t even bother to petition NCsoft. The reason is that I do not accept to play the collaborator role, maybe it’s partly due to French history during 2nd world war.. but you should be aware that we strongly refrain ourselves to collaborate with official representatives (police, tax, ect..) call it a paradox for a country that believe in strong governments structures.. That’s directly due to the French **** collaborators: even today the word “collaborator” is a total insult in France. So yes, when I see Ncsoft’s note, asking to me, a player, to spy on my fellow players, even for valid reasons, I am all but proud to submit to it!
I find such request completely despicable: if NCsoft wants to get rid of cheats, they should do it themselves instead of creating such unhealthy environment between players.
Finally, I honestly think that you are fighting a pre-Chronicle3 war here:
Your behaviour was the right thing to do at that moment, when both the majority of the players were legit and the cheaters feared NCsoft bans policy. Now with NCsoft proving every day that you can cheat to the highest with absolutely no repercussions whatsoever and the majority of remaining players having cheated at last once in their in-game life: this is an out-dated war.
Yes, sadly being an extreme legit can only be possible in L2 either by ceasing any interaction with suspected cheaters or quitting the game for good.
Note that this can only be reversed by NCsoft enforcement's policy alone: cheats is out of legits hands nowadays
I agree we disagree, but thats perfectly fine. Yup I understand ur position and how u got there. I too walked that path and was like minded, but that lead me to terminate my subscription. Dispite things I do like this game, and if I am going to stay here I'm just going to play my way thats all.
Off topic, need to grab u and other summoners and make an event. We are way over due ^__^
I fully agree with you in theory but put this into L2's current lifetime and you will clearly see few things:
- This game has already break it's "maturity" point:
It is alive for now close to 3 years for some of us... everything, in its design/graphics will be soon outdated or already is, it won't bring some utterly new fresh players into the game.
- This company will never enforce its anti-cheat better:
What they couldn't do for a painless effort a year ago will never be done today.. else you might end up as SWG. In other words, you'd better see the truth in the eyes and admit that cheaters are trully part of L2 game's feature.. name it an "unofficial" feature but a strongly established and fully implemented one!
- I have reach my own "maturity" in this game:
Meaning I will probably not play L2 in 2 years from now.. I am a full casual players in every ways and this means that in the little playtime I have left, I want to experience the other and most important features L2 has to offer: I wanna do it legitly and am currently fully achieving it, no matter what you seem to imply.
LOL, I just thought how stupid you lot really are.
"I'm going to play this game 100% legit and try and kill the bad people who cheat."
1. Destroy all of your weapons and armor, if you crafted them then the mats were probably farmed by a bot. Don't buy from any of the towns... just don't buy anything total. The gear used to take the castle was probably involved with bots or farmers somewhere in it's life, let alone the alliance / clan / participants in the siege cheating sometime in the game. Don't use soulshots, spiritshots or potions... can only get the key mats from shops, shops > castles > players wearing gear took castle > gear made from mats > mats from bots.
2. I won't fight players, I only want to fight bots. ROFL, why? Because bots don't generally hit back and you're scared to lose XP.. carebear.
3. players who bot (not farmers) tend to have their support classes or maybe main on auto hunt and so on. This is the same as 2 boxing and normal hunting, just reduces the carpel tunnel syndrome risk that comes with playing 10 hrs a day. Farmers are the ones taking XP spots, causing problems, and setting prices high (well prices are 20% SP too).
4. The only way to compete against a cheat is to either spend insane amounts of time lvling (I spend waaay too much time playing) or cheat. some can't **** the pace so cheat. You make an alliance strong enough to beat SP by including only legit players......
5. I don't cheat, that's all I need to know, if people want to cheat I don't care, it's them taking the risk. Why are you so holy that they don't deserve your friendship? I bet 90% of you XP and gear has something to do with bots, wether its through buying from shops or mats or whatever.
U sir are very dence.
Yes we been using only one aspect of the spectrum to make our arguements but there lot more involved Legit/nonlegit. Alignment of Good, neutral, and chaotic. Reputation and/or lack there of.
Who said a legit clans are going to stop fighting cheaters, just they will fight on their own terms.
How can you fight on your own terms when others will cheat to beat you.
By closing your eyes and considering yourself some sort of law enforcing clan then you simply give yourelf an environment that stops your ability to compete against the cheaters. As I have said I do not cheat, but I will not leave clans / alliances due to cheaters. Why, because it serves me no good and they are not doing any harm to me or others (apart from enemies).
You can not stop the cheaters, you are not any better than the cheaters, judgements should be made on personality not how you play the game.
The only person losing out on your holy crusade is yourself.
Oh but they are doing some harm.. in fact they are killing the game more surely than NCsoft's own game flows.. it's just that we can't realistically get rid of them, not now, not with Nc's policy.
So we have to live with them and try to make it as painless for us as possible while proving them some more effective ways to enjoy the game: if you can get in 2 months of Raids the B, A or S grd you could immediately ebay for xxx$... would you still ebay with no in-game experience/enjoyment out of it or would you play with 50+ friends for 2 month and enjoy this activity (oftenly finish in pvp battles)?
How can you fight on your own terms when others will cheat to beat you.
By closing your eyes and considering yourself some sort of law enforcing clan then you simply give yourelf an environment that stops your ability to compete against the cheaters. As I have said I do not cheat, but I will not leave clans / alliances due to cheaters. Why, because it serves me no good and they are not doing any harm to me or others (apart from enemies).
You can not stop the cheaters, you are not any better than the cheaters, judgements should be made on personality not how you play the game.
The only person losing out on your holy crusade is yourself.
In essance u already been defeated, keep thinking have some dignity instead of just accept thous u surround and rely appond.
If you are in this to win the game, well u have forsake urself and become ur enemy. If truely that is ur goal then please just accept what u have become. Make negotations with RedGuard to share firepower and exp leeching ablilites, keep players that just dont care about how they play as long get some fun aspect of being on top and killing people even if they have a chance or no. Become ur enemy.
I tried, and my nature does not accept it. I have a totally different perspective than you. I might not be the king of Aden but I sure will have more dignity and prestege over the goals I accomplish and like minded players I lead.
I respect ur desire to compete, but respect my desire to not take the easy way or have greifers among my pledge.
Redguard, farmers and massive bot trains filling catacombs and hunting grounds have nothing to do with what I am talking aout.
I think you are getting confused between real players using bot programs or ebaying and farmers, there is a big difference. player botters generally affect no one else but themselves for a start.
Yup... the effect would be even smaller if they would be banned faster. Most desirably before the next castle siege... or the next pvp from which they forcelog... or the next poor guy they grief because they know their XP is sustainable without any effort.
I'm a noob when it comes to cheating-community... You may have notice I avoid those folks... but how many of the total cheating community cheat on their own toons? 10%? 5? 3?
The vast majority is done via professionals. Which affect everyone a lot.
Redguard, farmers and massive bot trains filling catacombs and hunting grounds have nothing to do with what I am talking aout.
I think you are getting confused between real players using bot programs or ebaying and farmers, there is a big difference. player botters generally affect no one else but themselves for a start.
"How can you fight on your own terms when others will cheat to beat you."
So in essance to beat them back I would have to lvl the playing field. OK so I make an alliance full of mixed bag of cheaters and thous who accept it. Now to beat the main enemy which is SP, well need make sure u have the funtimentals of having PeaceCountry to make money on the side and help with leeching back of exp. Then I have to make agreements with farmers to work the manor system and list goes on. OK lets do that, lets creating a machine and use all the tools availible legit or no. Then I can fund my lvl 75+ crew with top weapons and gear or maybe just do a sharing method of raid boss drops. Now I have comprised my army to fight their army. Why be legit in ur own mind, just accept what u are working with to achieve ur goals so u too can be 1337 with OE S grade gear.
Dude, who cares. I can try my best for years on end but I won't beat an entity such as SP. U truly think u can build an army and defeat them on their terms, u have to become them. Avalon do what they wish, my problem was I got lured into something that was false. We moved on and go my way and they go theirs. Doesnt mean im going to shun them due who they are unless they step on my foot in doing so.
Stay true to how u want to play, recruit players that are like minded and agree to the charter/rules u have designed. They don't believe in it or have unsolvible problem, then they can move on to either find what they are like minded to or create their own path. It's that simple.
Alliance politics can shape relations due to incentive to make working agreements to help one another, but if u fit them under one name their differences will destroy them.
Imagine Erica as the backdrop for a cheezy 80 teens movie, like "The Breakfast Club." (DISCLAIMER: NO, I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT WE OR YOU ARE LIKE IN RL - JUST THAT I THINK THAT THE FOLLOWING ANALOGY IS FUNNY.)
Erica as "The Breakfast Club"
SP is Judd Nelson's character. We're the guys that take everyone's lunch money and smoke cigarettes behind the gym. SP also cheats on their tests, and we don't really care about anything except each other.
Defy is Emilio Estevez
Defy are the jocks. While Defy occasionally does bad things just like SP (like cheat on their exams or pick on the weaker people at the school), at least they actually fight against SP. Defy also wears tights. (LOL. I had to throw that in there.)
Jamin is Anthony Michael Hall's character from Breakfast Club. He never cheats on his exams, but he has no idea why he's in detention with the Jocks and Hoods.
Divine Strength is Ally Sheedy's weird girl character. Both the jocks and the hoods think she's a weirdo.
Iegacy is Molly Ringwald. She's all goody-goody and prim and proper at first ("Blah, blah, blah, we don't bot, eBay, etc.), but deep-down, everyone knows that she's a dirty-girl.
Hehehehe,
S-Dog
Haha, this one was a good one though you've missplaced some character but no worries considering how biased you can be. ;)
Anyway, beside saying that this was a huge, huge classic teen movie and one of the best.. you forgot the main adult role in that movie!
NCsoft would definitely be Paul Gleason.. the **** principal. :)
Private Servers should be then John Kapelos.. Aka Carl the Janitor!
U truly think u can build an army and defeat them on their terms, u have to become them.
Not necessarily. You have to use the tools, but that doesn't mean you have to play in the same way towards other people.
Now if NCSoft had taken my advice from the getgo of how the frick to police this game, there might be a point now to make "cheating" the grounds for "good or bad", but they didn't, so now the only criteria I see left is wether or not people are arseholes or actually play well.
No, it isn't anymore. Had things been made differently, NCSoft Korea/NA done things differently, then yes it might have been...but now, no. Its simply a function of the world we now live in.
I don't want everything on a silver platter.
I think most people just want to have fun. And regardless of what people do, I think they'll find plenty of challenges in this game. Going out and buying 100 million adena to get an a-grade helmet isn't going to serve you the game on a silver platter.
But I want it fair, I want it good, I want it as an accomplishment.
Then play such.
Even the ebayers on "my side" send bots into my hunting grounds.
I've never heard of people sending bots to KS someone...if I was the one who was going to KS you, I certainly wouldn't send bots, I'd send players to do a whoopin'
It seems you all forgot what cheating means.
Sounds like we aren't the only ones :)
It's not having a little shortcut to the +16 weapon which you would have gotten yourself eventually
Well, for one, you'd have to a pretty **** good cheater to end up with +16 or more weapons. As for getting it yourself through legit means, I probably am one of the people who should have by a legit standard a hell of alot of ressources, and I can't even get anything past +6, hell, I don't even own a-grade a part from a single armor piece that was given to me.
It is constant bot terror, constant griefing, constant grinding and constant drama.
1. Bot terror? You make it sound like its a bunch of little Al'Quada smurfs running the face of Aden.
2. Griefing knows no color. Griefers just grief, sepererate issue.
3. Yeah, constant grinding...flaw of the game...made even worse that the game is now buggy and unstable :(
4. As one of my good clannies would say "More Draaaaama" said with a really cheezy swedish redneck voice. :D
I like the attitude that some of you have :), likeminded i guess :p.
I wish anime would take less of my free time so as to get more time to play and get to know the srv better... beeing an anime addict sure has it's downfalls . :o
U truly think u can build an army and defeat them on their terms, u have to become them.
Not necessarily. You have to use the tools, but that doesn't mean you have to play in the same way towards other people.
Now if NCSoft had taken my advice from the getgo of how the frick to police this game, there might be a point now to make "cheating" the grounds for "good or bad", but they didn't, so now the only criteria I see left is wether or not people are arseholes or actually play well.
Nope u have to become them. Your victories are small guella tactics so u catch them in few numbers. Which u fight to their weakness, but your not taking castles from them cause by inlarge ur out manned and out gunned.
SP not been pushing full steam lately but if they did they could make life even more miserible and have little conquences since they have lot money(see playa's inventory screenshot) ability to regain exp with little problems(aka PeaceCountry), and they still are very stable compared to ur alliance which has lasted them over many moons now.
I mean seriously just make arrangements with redguard and fix any internal problems with an iron fist. Then you can lvl the playing field, otherwise all we are going to see is fraps of when u caught a few of them alone and not inside Aden/Giran castle.
We all agree the GMs should be doing their job, but if they did SP wouldnt be the only one getting lot bans.
You agree with me but don't consider the situation that much of a problem.
Sure my post was exaggerated... but maybe thats necessary because so many got used to farmers already that much... accepting them as a part of the game which they consider a necessary evil... a game flaw... while it is a player flaw in the first place.
But what exactly do you think is happening when someone orders farmers to bot for him? They go to the most rewarding spots where I'd like to farm or XP... so they do indeed "steal" my mobs. And as they wouldn't be there in the first place without the cheater giving the order, I think it's fair to say that every user of the secondary market sends bots to KS me. And to KS you too btw. And your friends.
hi,
From all the posts made, i lean to cal's the most. I think she makes some good points in wich i agree.
You have to know i was warned before i began to play this game with all his downsides (pk, botting, cheating and all the bunch)
For me, that was appealing side of the game.
Because its role playing.
I'ts like in real life, realy !
Enough cheaters and bad-guy's to make you crazy. Seeing that rich (read : fully armed with the best weapons and armours) people are mostly guy's that are not always "honnest"
Also the fact that very much people react on them in many different ways, makes it funny :)
Just like irl where there are organisations who help people in their free time an organisations that just live for their own profit. The latter even thinks : how poorer i can make one, how richer i get.
I think its good to have both sides.
I think that the other side (the third one, if you want) is important too. Those who don't care enough.
It's not wrong tough. Just like in real live, its sometimes them who makes the difference by doing many good little things without wanted to be in the picture.
Most of them, like 95 % are all guy's and girl's who like to play, to party and to enjoy the game for the few hours they can get online.
It's from them i got the most support in this game, it's from them i learn bit by bit the game on his fullest.
What i don't mean is : "its good to not-care". I fully admire those who stand against the bad-guy's and willing to take risks to stand for what they think. I'm very glad they are out there, protecting little people like me :D
lol normaly irl it's the job of the "police" to do such things. Funny how things can go.....
Maybe very later on, when i'm stronger, higher level, i'll change my point of view and fighting the baddy's on your side cal.
But for now, i'm just glad there are so many different people and so many different way's to play the game.
Hell i even think that many of those hardcore cheater's are the most honnest people irl. That's why mmorpg's are so fun to play. You can play a toon that is a totaly different then how you are irl.
imagine a hardcore sp, who is teacher, nurse or an carefull and warm mamy or dady :confused:
Very nice to read the this posts tough, taught me a much about politics ingame.