Necromancer VS Spellhowler

Hi,

I've always played a DD-character and now i wanna play a mage char.
But i wanna know what the pro's and con's r of the Necro vs SH. I like the SH cos they look cool :P and the Necro got some awesome skills.
Dunno what to choose pls help me out....

ty

Necromancer is overall the better class, it's better in pvp and almost as good in pve.

SH:
Higher dmg
More main nukes

Necro:
Faster cast speed
more hp
better debuffs
summon + transfer pain

Sadly the necromancer would probably be the better choice...

Both get (most notably):
Vampiric Claw
Death Spike
Silence

Spellhowler:
Hurricane
Shadow Flare

Necromancer:
Transfer pain
Summons
Anchor

And at the same time, Necromancers get faster casting speed. So, even though I hate to admit it... Necromancer would be your choice.

Dont go necro.

They are ganna get NERFSTICKBBQPWNED in c5

Hi,

I've always played a DD-character and now i wanna play a mage char.
But i wanna know what the pro's and con's r of the Necro vs SH. I like the SH cos they look cool :P and the Necro got some awesome skills.
Dunno what to choose pls help me out....

ty

I would say that Spellhowler are better at PvE than the necro and necros are better at pvp. Of course, if Silence lands for the SH then it's good night Necro.

But their gloom really hurts you.

This is not to say that SH is bad in PvP but Necros have the edge.

And if Anchor lands it's good night SH. SH is a strong class but Necromancer is even stronger, and in PVE they're not that much weaker, after all they got BTM and CDL.

But I like my SH more too ^^

And if Anchor lands it's good night SH. SH is a strong class but Necromancer is even stronger, and in PVE they're not that much weaker, after all they got BTM and CDL.

But I like my SH more too ^^

I think that our B2M is significantly better. I remember speaking with a Necro in our clan and he wasn't too thrilled with the quality of his B2M.

However, we had a pvp Tournement last weekend. He was 62 (or around there) and I'm 72. Several times he was able to knock me out because of gloom (and maybe anchor-could you tell me what that does?).

Of course when I landed silence I won. I think I was able to win a few times by simply outdamaging him but I have no doubt that once he gets closer in lvl I will have an even harder time of it.

Anchor = 2min para = instant win.

And both classes get lvl 5 BTM >.>

Anchor = 2min para = instant win.

And both classes get lvl 5 BTM >.>

ahh... in that case it might have been because he had a lower B2M.

I wonder what the damage difference is. I know he used CDL a lot but there were the obvious risks. I think Necros get Death Spike, no? Or something that requires a cursed bone?

Ye, Death Spike is the main nuke in pvp for them.

Sovrath, B2m restores more mp than death spike, the guy must be one of the uber noob rerolls if he is not pleased w/ b2m.
using death spike you'll never run out of mana w/ b2m

When both SH and necro are A grade...

-You will both have DC robes
-You will both have Mental Shield at all times.

Results:
-Paralyze is not efficient to cast (as it won't land anywhere near reasonably)
-Silence is not efficient to cast except as a last ditch effort.

-The necro will have pet and TP on and thus more than twice the HP of a SH.
-The necro pet is insanely offensively powerful and must be dealt with or the SH will be shredded in a few seconds.
-The necro will land Gloom
-The necro will cast faster (interrupts)

-The SH will nuke slightly harder.


The SH is very very dead along with every other class in the game save overlord or warcryer. The only hope for the SH is to be higher level or get lucky with Silence. A silenced Necro should be defeated, but can still win if his pet can close the distance. Necros with pet and bow are still very much a threat.

The necro is a double-HP mage with an insanely powerful offensive pet.

If you are a fast leveller, take necro as you will be twice as powerful as any other class until C5. They will be nerfed in C5, but by how much is anyone's guess.

Sovrath, B2m restores more mp than death spike, the guy must be one of the uber noob rerolls if he is not pleased w/ b2m.
using death spike you'll never run out of mana w/ b2m

naww... he's a pretty experience player. Maybe we'll chalk it up to having a bad day. ;)

They will be nerfed in C5, but by how much is anyone's guess.

Please! Be gentle, NC :eek:

Spellhowlers are better at PVE because of Hurricane ( main nuke, wind element... aka no resistant mobs, unlike darkness ), Tempest ( Aoe Nuke ), Clear Mind ( when you are /walking, you regen mana as fast as your sitting rate ), and shadow flare ( second highest damaging nuke, highest being the one learned at lvl 75/76, it also is an overhit skill, meaning it gives up to a 25% bonus in exp... and considering SHs M atk, it usually hits the 25% mark if used as the second nuke on single hp mobs ).

Neceromancers are better at pvp because they have higher con, higher Pdef, a faster cast rate, Transfer Pain, and a few more debuffs ( which are highly resisted... althoug the AOE slow is nice ).

To be fair... Necromancers are the second best at PVE because although they lack some skills compared to SHs.. they still have that uber supplementary black magic... aka Body to mind, Vampiric claw, corpse life drain, and curse death link.

Wait a minute.... this doesn't sound very fair at all. [censored]. Overpowered necros.

-The necro will land Gloom
-The necro will cast faster (interrupts)

- SHs will land Surrender to Wind, so the gloom line = moot
- They both will have a passive concentration ( DC ) and an active concentration ( self buff, or exterior buff ) so don't expect spells to interrupt at all, unless there is a level gap.

Sure, Necros will win... but give SHs more credit than this. The only real reason why necros win is because of TP... as with any other class.

I have both classes.... both at 6x.

using death spike you'll never run out of mana w/ b2m

This is BS. Even if you popped GHPs and did Death Spike/ B2M exclusively, you will still run out of mana in 10-15 minutes in a good hunting spot. An SH casting death spike/ B2M will last much longer ( atleast the whole buff round ) if they use Clear Mind via /walk. It makes all the diffrence.

I am still dissapointed with B2M though... at higher levels I mean. You are rocking 3.5k~ MP... and b2m gives you what.. 50-60 mana back per 300 hp? yeah... we need higher levels of this.

Watching a necro getting hit with Wind Vortex is sweet.

good breakdown.

Though Surrender to wind lowers mdef to wind attacks (or however the mechanic works) and gloom lowers overall mdef (is this true or no?). If so then that is another feather in a necro's pvp cap.

It lowers M def, but it's effectively the same diffrence in damage as surrender is for SHs, or any other mage class.

The only time necros get obscenely overpowered in regards to damage output is when they stack gloom and dark vortex... and unless someone proves to me that any elemental vortex can stack with it's elemental surrender, gloom + dark vortex will remain the most broken aspect of necromancers ( yes, even worse than transfer pain ).

You may bring the gloom+debuff arguement into this... but think about what this actually means. Slow almost lways lands, silence and sleep are guarded by aegis, and para is guarded by DC... so where does this leave debuffs? Pretty much where it started... I mean... even with gloom the chances of a mage getting hit by one is still much lower then other non tank/ healer classes.

If SH lands Wind Vortex on a necro at first then the SH can 4 shot the necro and win most of the time. Key is the SH has to land Wind Vortex first and thats usually hard to do in a 1v1 because of slow cast speed.

1.1k cast speed without BD is fast enough I say!

What was NCsoft thinking when they added Malaria...

1,4k without Malaria >.> coupled with 4,5k mattk, wooohooo!

Necromancers are better at PvE overall than SH in my opinion...

I could see a SH being better at finding wind-weak mobs... but finding mobs that are not dark resistant isn't even remotely difficult either. Pick your targets and use the pet and I bet the necro will beat the SH due to sheer damage output alone. A manaless SH is useless.... a manaless Necro still has his pet. Please note CDL killing is SO much easier with the necro than with the SH.

SE + Necro +pet is a complete group that most full groups cannot compare with for XP or loot. That little group can clear rooms of x4 or x5 mobs with no difficulty at all and do so with VERY little downtime.

Granted, that isn't actually solo...

Did I mention a properly played necro owns in even a 9-man group? (the necro is doing the group a favor and power-leveling them)

Did you know that a WC+BD+Destro/Tyrant/Gladi can go totally nonstop in catacombs/necropoli? ;)

Most groups can do just fine without a necro, adding one just adds whining as they usually complain about everything, spoiled as they are.

Necromancers are better at PvE overall than SH in my opinion..

It's not a matter of opinion. SHs are better at PVE... and that's a fact.

A SH using Shadow Flare would be getting what... 40% more exp then a necro using a pet.... and this SH can last up to an hour without a recharger ( I have done this many times, scroll buffs ftw ). Even then, to get a full bar, just B2M, all you have to do is /walk and kill mobs on the side ( claw/ corpse drain ) to get your HP back. You hear that? You are STILL EARNING EXP while you regen you mana. Sure.. necros can do this too, but they don't have clear mind.. and they can't finish with Shadowfore. So you tell me who is doing better at this point? In a few minutes time, an SH is already good to go for another hour.

** And I have done this often... scroll buffs FTW **

As for basic "[censored] mana conservation" spamming, an SH will still last longer then a necro, while earning more exp because of clear mind.

As for necro pets helping in EXP... sorry, but this is the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time.

As for CDLing in general is a stupid idea unless you're with a recharger. CDLing might do some serious damage, but you are never going to have enough HP to B2M. With a recharger, you are good to go, you lucky bastard.

Oh yeah... AOE AOE AOE AOE AOE.

AOE might be gimped... but being able to two shot group mobs with Tempest is still 2.5x better exp any any two shot kill a necro can accomplish.

How easy is it to level up the SH and do they solo good on their own with out always needing a healer or buffer or someone?

How easy is it to level up the SH and do they solo good on their own with out always needing a healer or buffer or someone?

very easy to lvl up withou a buffer. They Solo extremely well.

How easy are they to solo? Easiest in the game. Unbuffed went well until 62. Here is my gear.

1-20 Voo doo doll + devo set

20-40 +5 demon fangs + devo set

40-49 +7 dark screamer ( tee hee hee ) and demon set... sans tunic ( used apprentice ) due to technical difficulties.

49-61 +7 homu and Karmian/ Avadon

61+ +3 dasparion, then +3 Som with acumen ( zomg... I cried when I finally earned one for myself ).

I think SH is the best type to solo as long if u have the right gear, and unlimited bsps.

While the Necro list of skills is impressive, I think people are underestimating SH ability to pvp. On Bartz server necros are the FOTM. I've done my fair share of pvps with them (both with and without summons). I've lost only once to a necro and it was because I was unaware of him and he silenced me when I was focused on another target.

Granted maybe I'm playing against a bunch of necros that don't know how to play their class, but I've destroy every necro (except that 1 time) I've been against.

Remember real pvp fights are vastly different than arena pvp. I'm more concerned with spellsingers, sorcerers and archers.

Go necro. By the time they nerf it in c5 you've already finished your subclass. Then you can sub SH if you still want it.

Money is no object to me I have enough of it b/c of my prophet so I just want to make sure I know exactly what I should have from 1-20 & what I should have from 20-40 after that I should have enough knowledge of what to get from 40+ I've been told to get 1-20 + Devotion set and top NG Weapon (like voodoo) and then from 20-40 get knowledge set and SOL is that a good idea?

It's not a matter of opinion. SHs are better at PVE... and that's a fact.

No, it is your opinion. A fact is proveable. You have your experiences, but are not omniscient nor have played the whole game in every situation. (Neither have I - we have similar experiences.) There are obviously things you are missing, and perhaps a few I might be missing. However, I properly labelled my opinion as such.

A SH using Shadow Flare would be getting what... 40% more exp then a necro using a pet....

You do not seem to understand how overhit works... You are trying to one or two-hit mobs. (I also pick mobs that give nice drops and thus do not always kill mobs perfectly down to the HP.) While I am quite practiced, I cannot always get the max overhit XP every time.... and I somehow doubt you can either. The pet takes its share each time... but adds to XP because it can help you kill by using less mana or by killing when you have no mana. The overhit spells do more damage, but also have a recast delay and since I highly recommend using Demon robes even if you can use A grade for PvE, that recast delay tends to hurt.

Even then, to get a full bar, just B2M, all you have to do is /walk and kill mobs on the side ( claw/ corpse drain ) to get your HP back. You hear that? You are STILL EARNING EXP while you regen you mana.

This is where the necro wins... he will kill oh so much more than the SH when he is manaless because of his pet's damage output. Between drains and Corpse Drain, the necro really isn't that bad of a tank considering how fast the pet kills things. Alternate with your pet for tanking and your be surprised how much mana and HP and XP you can get while manaless. And FYI, Necros emulating SH don't summon the pet until after they are almost out of mana...

Sure.. necros can do this too, but they don't have clear mind.. and they can't finish with Shadowfore.

You are correct about shadowflare and clear mind... but you fail to see the power of using the pet at the right times which overwhelms both by a decent margin.

Let's simplify... XP = damage output.
Necro damage output with pet > SH damage output over long periods of time if you know how to use the necro pet.
While the SH is standing still gaining mana, the necro is still killing alternating tanking with his pet and draining Hp to fuel his B2M and alternately to not die from his CDL.

As for necro pets helping in EXP... sorry, but this is the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time.

This is why you fail... you are only using half your character's capabilities. Open your mind and try something different. You are simply emulating a SH at this point and not actually playing a necro. The pet's damage output FAR exceeds the XP it takes.

As for CDLing in general is a stupid idea unless you're with a recharger. CDLing might do some serious damage, but you are never going to have enough HP to B2M. With a recharger, you are good to go, you lucky bastard.

Hint... believe it or not, you can use those drain spells to maintain a certain HP level with practice. The point is to save mana overall with CDL and increase damage efficiency and long-term damage output. Kill speed is not as relevent for a necro who can take his time because he is dividing damage between two HP pools with either good planning or if necessary TP.

Oh yeah... AOE AOE AOE AOE AOE.

AOE might be gimped... but being able to two shot group mobs with Tempest is still 2.5x better exp any any two shot kill a necro can accomplish.

You actually have a point here... but solo AOE is risky unless you have no enemies. I get jumped in PvE often and avoid AoE solo due to it. Provided you are friends with everyone I can see a SH appproaching what a necro is capable of in PvE provided you can find someplace that isn't camped and where you can get enough mobs to feed your AoE needs.
My server rarely if ever has those two things going on at once. (As you can tell I make enemies fast even when trying to be helpful.)

The thing is that necros can and do kill tougher targets than SH can even start on. The pet is a nice distraction. SH do not cast well (even buffed) when being beat on by mobs they cannot 2 or 3-shot. Necros can kill x4 or x5 mobs with little risk and low downtime. Try soloing a large room in ToI or cat/necrop with x4 or x5 mobs with a SH. Necros do it with a little downtime solo (must have mana for PvP) and with near none with an SE. SH quite frankly can't even begin there solo or Duo... they just don't have the endurance.

Seriously, you are only playing half the necro... the pets are the key to much power if you understand how to use them in both PvP and PvE.

A fact is proveable.

The numbers do not lie. Necros make more exp without pets. The only thing that changes is downtime... and if you are farming for 10 hours a day, maybe using pets might impact your exp/ adena income. Otherwise, I don't see how you can even consider it as being a viable option.

While I am quite practiced, I cannot always get the max overhit XP every time.... and I somehow doubt you can either.

If I can't with a cast speed set, I move to demon set. I make sure I get the full bonus at all times... which I do. You must have been doing something wrong.

The overhit spells do more damage, but also have a recast delay and since I highly recommend using Demon robes even if you can use A grade for PvE, that recast delay tends to hurt.

Depending on how spaced the closest mobs are, if you can kill another one before the delay timer.... you should. There is no reason to wait.

Let's simplify... XP = damage output.

Time = exp, and a necro's down is much longer than a SHs.

You are only using half your character's capabilities. Open your mind and try something different. You are simply emulating a SH at this point and not actually playing a necro.

... none of this means anything. This only explains how I could be doing better while on my necro ( which I don't buy )... it doesn't prove how they are better expers than SHs.

The pet's damage output FAR exceeds the XP it takes.

You don't like to factor in the time, do you...

Hint... believe it or not, you can use those drain spells to maintain a certain HP level with practice. The point is to save mana overall with CDL and increase damage efficiency and long-term damage output. Kill speed is not as relevent for a necro who can take his time because he is dividing damage between two HP pools with either good planning or if necessary TP.

How do you do you keep your HP low enough to do enough damage to one shot single hp mobs while keeping a steady a hp pool coming to b2m? The fact that you use the drain spells means that your only regening happens when you corpse drain... meaning you can only b2m once per mob. You might be conserving mana using CDL.. but you are also cutting the B2M input by more than a half. And you say pets can account for the 15% loss as well as the b2m gimp.... and the risk of extremely low hp?

I don't think so....

Kill speed is not as relevent for a necro who can take his time because he is dividing damage between two HP pools with either good planning or if necessary TP.

This only justifies how much longer you can stay up... not how much more exp you earn vs a nuking necro.... let alone how much more exp you would be getting vs a SH. Timing is everything.... and killing slower and for less exp just to stay up longer doesn't make any sense.

The thing is that necros can and do kill tougher targets than SH can even start on

Meaning what exactly? I two shot mobs for 12k exp at my level... with hour long up times with my SH... while a nuking necro sits every 15 minutes. Your pet + necro character is not outdamaging me, or out mobbing me... and your cast speed isn't making much of a diffrence anymore considering the bulk of our time is now being spent simply retargeting and running.

As for coming across enemies in the field... it happens.... and it has nothing to do with necros vs SHs in pve.

The numbers do not lie. Necros make more exp without pets. The only thing that changes is downtime... and if you are farming for 10 hours a day, maybe using pets might impact your exp/ adena income. Otherwise, I don't see how you can even consider it as being a viable option.

Numbers can and do lie. It isn't really the numbers as much as the interpretation of such. People can and do lie (both intentionally and unintentionally) and thus proof requires at least two people with reproduceable results. Your word and your experience are not proof and thus do not constitute fact. (No offense intended, but the cold hard truth does not allow for much wiggle room here.)


I don't think you are understanding the main point that necro pet = less downtime. You are killing WHILE regenning mana to a much larger degree than a SH can possibly handle. The SH must pause at one point and the necro does not have to. Pet damage output is manaless.

If I can't with a cast speed set, I move to demon set. I make sure I get the full bonus at all times... which I do. You must have been doing something wrong.

Honestly, I still doubt this. You would have to spend a LOT of time worrying about who has X amount of HP, with Y resistance...
I just find a nice place where no one else is for now (and that I hope no one will bother me in) and start killing. I find that too much piddly-diddly worrying over overhit XP makes for less XP overall.

The point is that Overhit does NOT account for as much as you seem to think it does... and that I can make the pet worth the XP and adena cost.

Time = exp, and a necro's down is much longer than a SHs.

Alrighty... let's be specific. The necro has many methods of XPing, so lets say I am emulating an SH.
-Necro follows the SH method (kill, B2M, Kill, B2m, kill, B2M, recover HP through drain, etc until he runs out of mana/HP and thus would have downtime just like the SH. (The SH will have roughly 80 mana/minute extra due to walking+clear mind)
-The SH stands still/sits and gains mana/HP
-The Necro summons pet and keeps killing...

How can you possibly say the sitting SH gets more XP than the constantly killing necro?
Your few extra XP from overhit and your one extra nuke per minute is going to make up for sitting when the necro doesn't have to?

Now that both are out of mana, the SH kill-rate is now limited by Mana/HP regen. The necro's is NOT.

My experience shows that constant killing and keeping up with the spawn rate in a good place is not only more profitable adena-wise, but also better for XP.

... none of this means anything. This only explains how I could be doing better while on my necro ( which I don't buy )... it doesn't prove how they are better expers than SHs.

You don't like to factor in the time, do you...

The pet IS the key to both XP and time.
You are too busy looking at what the pet takes to try it and figure out what the pet gives. Pets are more HPs, more damage output and thus more resources to make you more XP. I don't even understand where you get the time thing because the necro pet keeps you in battle period. When both SH and necro's long-term DPS takes a dive due to finally running out of mana, the necro can summon nearly MANALESS dps... How exactly does the SH compete?

How do you do you keep your HP low enough to do enough damage to one shot single hp mobs while keeping a steady a hp pool coming to b2m? The fact that you use the drain spells means that your only regening happens when you corpse drain... meaning you can only b2m once per mob. You might be conserving mana using CDL.. but you are also cutting the B2M input by more than a half. And you say pets can account for the 15% loss as well as the b2m gimp.... and the risk of extremely low hp?

I don't think so....

One-shotting a green or low-white mob with CDL isn't too hard... cheap and effective as well... on top of it the pet can be killing their own mob and can kill ONE mob to each two of mine. The only downside is picking up loot which I usually do between spawns. I refuse to give up all my secrets but there are also mobs where I intentionally give up a little XP for serious adena gains.

-CDL
-Corpse drain
-B2M
-B2M (if enough HP)
(low HP for CDL again)

I will admit that unless mobs are quite plentiful,(lesser population times) this method is not as effective as going after larger mobs.

This only justifies how much longer you can stay up... not how much more exp you earn vs a nuking necro.... let alone how much more exp you would be getting vs a SH. Timing is everything.... and killing slower and for less exp just to stay up longer doesn't make any sense.

XP/hour is the key. I think you are using too small of a time period to measure. The SH loses XP bigtime when they have to sit and gather dust while the Necro keeps killing with his manaless DPS. If I take longer to kill a bigger mob but take less mana to do so (because my pet was whacking it) I have less downtime as well...

I two shot mobs for 12k exp at my level... with hour long up times with my SH... while a nuking necro sits every 15 minutes. Your pet + necro character is not outdamaging me, or out mobbing me... and your cast speed isn't making much of a diffrence anymore considering the bulk of our time is now being spent simply retargeting and running.

Up times for necro and SH should be similar, or you are doing something wrong. Your SH gets ONE extra nuke per minute due to clear mind, or thus one extra kill every 2 minutes. In one hour, your SH gets maybe 30 extra kills over the necro due to Clear mind. (provided the spawn rate/run time supports it) After their uptime, the necro summons a pet and starts killing using the pet. Are you seriously going to tell me that a pet + necro cannot kill more than 30 mobs in the time it takes you to regen enough mana to do something? The necro is going to have more corpses to fuel corpse drain for B2M...

Truth of the matter is that the necro is going to run out slgihtly faster... but then start killing a little slower. The necro will catch the SH as the SH will at one point be stuck with zero XP income.

As for coming across enemies in the field... it happens.... and it has nothing to do with necros vs SHs in pve.

PvE in practice must account for PvP. I play in a world where you must account for PvP or you are not going to PvE. Maybe you are luckier than I... maybe you are not. I base my experiences in what I do and how I do it... which accounts for PvP. Saying my experiences are invalid allows me the same arguement.

There are still no facts... only experiences.

I don't really buy your arguement, a SH is better at PvE and raiding bosses. Thats pretty much it, everything else a Necromancer is best for. If your carebear and just like the PvE element of the game with raids and exping then sure go SH. But if you like PvPing at all, go Necromancer as it is just sooo much better while only being #2 at soloing.

Hmm, Vent...

How often have you pulled out your pet for PvE? I ask because people are so used to pets being useless that some have not tried them much.

I am curious what leads you to the "SH is better for PvE" arguement.

I am not tryign to be arguementative as much as I am trying to gather data. I can't be the only one to spend time playing around with my pet, and while I realize there might be those who have found a few nuking tricks I haven't; I have been nuking since prelude and it really doesn't seem that complex.

Pet use seems to vary widely...