What do you hate the most

Agree both are pretty bad, but what do hate the most; someone that buys levels or money ?

Levels = a person that don't know how to play their toon
Money = you got stuff you didn't earn.

Assuming, that you mean buying levels for RL mooney, then there is no difference in the two for me.

Cheaters are Cheaters. There is no such things as being "just a bit a cheater". You can also not be "somewhat pregnant". You are a cheater or you are not a cheater.

All cheaters deserve to be banned, regardless of how they cheated.

If you mean buying powerleveling for adena, which was aquired the legal way in game, then the person buying levels is not breaking any rules. Assuming, that also the powerlevelers are not breaking the rules, the whole team is fine.

Buying money is always cheating.

Somewhat Kitten

Agree both are cheating yes.

and to clear things up I was talking about useing RL Money to purchase levels.

so,

RL$ + Levels = cheating and poor skilled players
RL$ + Ingame$ + cheating (again) and is just wrong (the rich just gets richer)

Ban them all, let Maphr sort them through.

Banning Kitten

Ofcourse both are bad, but one who bought lvls and doesn't have a clue of how to play will probably lose xp quickly enough to be the level he needs to be :)

P.S.
I wonder how can you buy a lvl ?! You mean people who buy accounts with hi lvl charecters ?

Or you pay for the Rice boy for some big booming.

LOL That's an excellent description of it. :D

I hate all non-legit and all legit people in the game... I need a hug.

I hate when people dig up 2 year old post because there is nothing worth posting about on the first few pages.

What i hate the most? NCSoft for letting all that crap happen ^^

1) private servers.

without them, we d have at least 3x the population we already have.

2) still playing on US timezone, trapped in ghost server

3) me, whinning on monday morning :p

What I hate most?

My accounts being put on crap settings. Aka poor drops when the randomizer is selecting a drop when I kill a mob/change of failing being set to high when I try to enhance etc etc etc on any of my accounts.

Oke seriously,

Both the opinions given by the OP are bad but banned is not what I would want.. Sue these individuals until they are without founds FOREVER. (I can't really get them put to death in real live but as it would be a tad to extreme. Still, a dead cheater does not return, lolz)

Anyway moving on

(I need my breakfast fast as I am cracky as hell)

i hate devs coz you forgot FS chronicles after chronicles...
CT1.5 : nothing for FS.
gracia part1 : nothing for FS.
gracia part2 : delete FS class?

You get Fatal Strike in CT2 :P

lol charmille, it's a soooooo great improvment for FS... FS (fatal Strike) for FS (FortuneSeeker)...
This is problably the best joke from devs...

1) private servers.

without them, we d have at least 3x the population we already have.

No we wouldn't, people like to play on higher rate servers, they just wouldn't play at all.

_Charmille_


Just kidding :p

1) private servers.

without them, we d have at least 3x the population we already have.

No we wouldn't, people like to play on higher rate servers, they just wouldn't play at all.



hundreds low rates servers are overpopulated.
and i dont count all the x2-x10 as high rates
high rates are the x100-x10000 which you play for 1 month and then you go to another.

allow me to have my oppinion, like you have yours :)

1) private servers.
without them, we d have at least 3x the population we already have.

NCSoft for not realizing that 90% of the ppl playing on private servers would jump within a second to a 10x official relaxed server.

lol charmille, it's a soooooo great improvment for FS... FS (fatal Strike) for FS (FortuneSeeker)...
This is problably the best joke from devs...

I just hope the change in loot tables means a proper shakeup in spoil tables also and works as a boost. But other than that, ye, you got ignored pretty much by NC ;)

What I dislike the most?

Doesn't really have anything to do with other players (active & real players or 3rd party ones).

I don't like some aspects of the game design. I don't like some of the decisions that have been made on particular classes.
I don't like that the devs seem to be able to ban **** near every soulless on a given day about every 3 months but in between the "Great Ban Hammer" events they don't seem to be able to do squat.

I don't like that players can be as anonymous as they are able--at least at times. Honestly I can't see a remedy for this one and admit there probably shouldn't be a remedy.

I don't like the pandering to a few loud voices evidenced when NCSoft makes game changes or decisions. I think they should actually have a template and a plan and follow it--but that's just me.

Difference between "how" someone uses a 3rd party or violates the Eula? No. I don't see any difference at all.

well if we're to talk about the game its self.

I'd have to say the economy, and drop rates.

NCsoft has but no thoughts into how to get all of this gear. and they keep adding more and more..making things tougher on the whole game. People just can't afford S80, and its nearly impossible for most to get S/g, or top A grade weapons.

I also hate that Ncsoft puts no thoughts into the armors. Every one has the same cookie-cutter armor. Every one of the same class has the same looks, same set ups...just no veriaty...and I think that is starting to kill the game!

well if we're to talk about the game its self.

I'd have to say the economy, and drop rates.

Honestly, I'd have to vote for the ridiculous amount of materials this game has. Get rid of all the first and second tier crap and just simplify the crafting process! (Don't you dare look at me funny dwarves!)

As far as the original question: Same difference.

well if we're to talk about the game its self.

I'd have to say the economy, and drop rates.

NCsoft has but no thoughts into how to get all of this gear. and they keep adding more and more..making things tougher on the whole game. People just can't afford S80, and its nearly impossible for most to get S/g, or top A grade weapons.

I also hate that Ncsoft puts no thoughts into the armors. Every one has the same cookie-cutter armor. Every one of the same class has the same looks, same set ups...just no veriaty...and I think that is starting to kill the game!

Ditto. It's like the devs have no clue when it comes to what it's like for the actual players to get gear. So, they introduce cool new stuff - maybe in 1-2 years I will start to see dribbles of some of the stuff show up in a few player's hands. Meanwhile, I started the game in C4, and still working on some parts of gear (and only have some of what I have because of friends wgo left the game).

the concept of having to be lvl 80 almost to get A grade materials i pretty obvious they don't have a clue most of the time.

NCSoft for not realizing that 90% of the ppl playing on private servers would jump within a second to a 10x official relaxed server.

So true... ;) I think even a couple of 5x relax servers would atrackt loads of new gamers...

NCSoft for not realizing that 90% of the ppl playing on private servers would jump within a second to a 10x official relaxed server.

So true... ;) I think even a couple of 5x relax servers would atrackt loads of new gamers...



i don't doubt that, I bet NCsoft would see a ton more players.

I'd say if they consolidated alot of the lower population servers, that NCsoft would see more players, and have less revenue loss for the mataince of 4 servers that just aren't very useful.

I'd say if they consolidated alot of the lower population servers, that NCsoft would see more players, and have less revenue loss for the mataince of 4 servers that just aren't very useful.

Ya but merging servers will be a complicated indever. Alot of stuff like clan hall, fortresses, castles being reset. I know quite few people who would quit if their server got merged and they lost a clan hall.

Kruken, who cares if the server got merged,

u dont need clan halls now that much, there are castles and forts doing the same [censored]

It increases pvp instead now.

I dont know of any clan on kain who WOULDNT be happy with a server merge to increase numbers personally.

U just refund the maximum price to each clan hall owner, and reset all clan halls back to no owners when you merge, first in best dressed, just be ready they gotta be. But not end of the world if they dont get one really. Other than that, nothing that really needs to be sorted out

True: with everything reset and everyone getting the refund for thier clan hall it would be pretty fair. Would just have to be ready to bid as soon as server opened. Other than that castles and fortresses change hands all the time.

I'd say if they consolidated alot of the lower population servers, that NCsoft would see more players, and have less revenue loss for the mataince of 4 servers that just aren't very useful.

Ya but merging servers will be a complicated indever. Alot of stuff like clan hall, fortresses, castles being reset. I know quite few people who would quit if their server got merged and they lost a clan hall.



This statement is so old, and unfounded truth.

Forts go to NPC ever 75 hours, or every 3 days.

Castle aren't hard to retake. A good clan can take 2 of them in 1 siege day (maybe more).

IDK about you but Halls are rather worthless. You don't get different things that you can't get form a fort or castle.

refund of adena is the best that NCsoft can do. And honestly they shouldn't refund more then 50% of it if that.

Anyhow, can we plz try to keep the discussion on topic and not go way off abotu this. its been discussed so many times its getting annoying.

Simple, the completely inept support that this once-fun game and community receives.

The poxy time zones.

When i started on Devianne, there were no euro-based servers, and for me it was the lowest ping every time i logged in. Now the server is more than 50% euro players we still have to play on US time, which is ok most of the time, but come events (or even cheap GK ports) and we get shafted time and time again, without even a compromise on the server time or event start times.

And i'm sure that Devianne isnt the only server where a time-compromise would help the majority of the players on that server.

Meant to quote this post so editing to add it

Assuming, that you mean buying levels for RL mooney, then there is no difference in the two for me.

Cheaters are Cheaters. There is no such things as being "just a bit a cheater". You can also not be "somewhat pregnant". You are a cheater or you are not a cheater.

All cheaters deserve to be banned, regardless of how they cheated.

If you mean buying powerleveling for adena, which was aquired the legal way in game, then the person buying levels is not breaking any rules. Assuming, that also the powerlevelers are not breaking the rules, the whole team is fine.

Buying money is always cheating.

Somewhat Kitten

Ok, so how do you look at more grey areas? What about being with friends in a group and going afk for 10 minutes with their approval? an hour with their approval? Paying someone to be afk in their group leeching (with adena you made legitly in game) Sharing accounts? Being in a group with someone who is using a prophet account which isn't theirs? Being in a party with someone using a bot program to automate the buffer (they are playing another character actively) Not using real money to buy adena/leveling but you doing favors outside of game for a friend doing favors inside game for you (I.E. you are a lawyer and you help a friend with a legal matter and that person levels your character for 2 hours or pays you 1 million adena) If you are ok with account sharing what about paying in adena for someone using your account to do a set of quests for you? Unless you are unclanned, never play with others at some point someone could call you a cheater... You were in a party with someone who used an account that wasn't theirs could be seen as cheating by some. There are greater and lesser offenses of 'cheating' and everyone who has played this game could be seen as a cheater. Should a culpable mental state be part of the determination of someone being a cheater or should this be a case for strict liability? I.E. you break a rule you are guilty even if you had an innocent mind and did not mean to break the rule.

The point of this post is that no one is completely innocent who plays this game when you look at every definition of being a 'cheater.' Simply making a broad statement 'all cheaters should be banned' if taken literally asserts a case for everyone who plays this in America at least being banned and the servers shut down. (I do not know how 2boxing, sharing accounts etc is seen in other regions so I cannot speak on their conduct)

Ok, so how do you look at more grey areas?

ok

What about being with friends in a group and going afk for 10 minutes with their approval?an hour with their approval?

That's fine, nothing wrong there (well maybe parts of the party may not agree, but that's party leaders dicission)

Paying someone to be afk in their group leeching (with adena you made legitly in game)

Again, nothing wrong there as the terms are still within the games peramiters and the leader still makes the decisions.

Sharing accounts?

This is a definite grey area, while personally, depending on how you interpret the agreements, the moment you share your account with anyone, you VOID any chance of retreiveing or getting support for hacking related incedents. This is of course in the case that you share your account with obviously someone not within your family (although it's still grey there). Far as that goes, If you agree that, ok, if something goes wrong and my toons are stripped, deleted, that i won't be able to get them back through the help of ncsoft, therefore i share, all should be dandy, definitely no grounds for a ban.

Being in a group with someone who is using a prophet account which isn't theirs?

Long as the real owner is aware of it and agreed to my above statement.

Being in a party with someone using a bot program to automate the buffer (they are playing another character actively)

This is a breach of the elua, doesn't matter if you playing a million other characters legitimately, if you have only one account/toon that is being automated in any way, that account and ALL accounts SHOULD be banned permanently.

Not using real money to buy adena/leveling but you doing favors outside of game for a friend doing favors inside game for you (I.E. you are a lawyer and you help a friend with a legal matter and that person levels your character for 2 hours or pays you 1 million adena)

You used the word "Friend", But even in the case that they weren't your friend, no adena was bought, no account lvling service was purchased in actuality. You still void your "my account was hacked, i want my stuff back" chance.

If you are ok with account sharing what about paying in adena for someone using your account to do a set of quests for you?

Void of the "i got hacked, give me my stuff back" help, otherwise Still using the game rules, nothing wrong with that still

Unless you are unclanned, never play with others at some point someone could call you a cheater... You were in a party with someone who used an account that wasn't theirs could be seen as cheating by some. There are greater and lesser offenses of 'cheating' and everyone who has played this game could be seen as a cheater.

This is where the seperation of idots and stupidity are needed. As anyone can call anyone else a cheater without any form of merit. Or call someone legitimate when they are clearly not.

The grounds for calling someone cheater is only based on that of the EULA presented. IF nothing in the EULA is broken, then there is no cheating.

AKA,

If you use any 3rd party program to get any form of even a smidge of an advantage, your cheating, if you buy or sell adena/items/weapons or anything for RL cash, your cheating, if your using Exploits that give you an advantage in the game, your cheating. so on an so forth.

Should a culpable mental state be part of the determination of someone being a cheater or should this be a case for strict liability? I.E. you break a rule you are guilty even if you had an innocent mind and did not mean to break the rule.

**** straight, When you load up lineageII, the agreement is right there, smack dab in your face and you HAVE to click "AGREE" to continue, when you agree, you agree to all of it, and if you didn't read it, and broke them, your a cheater, and therefore should be banned permenantly.

The point of this post is that no one is completely innocent who plays this game when you look at every definition of being a 'cheater.' Simply making a broad statement 'all cheaters should be banned' if taken literally asserts a case for everyone who plays this in America at least being banned and the servers shut down. (I do not know how 2boxing, sharing accounts etc is seen in other regions so I cannot speak on their conduct)

Unfortuneately your completely incorrect, as indeed, every cheater should be banned,

Because you or others don't know where the "cheater/Legit" lines are, doesn't mean you can call "fowl" and claim innocents.

As it's been pointed out, you break the eula, your a cheater, you should be banned, there is no grey area there.

I've reported clan members, friends (saposedly), party members, people i've never met, people that i've met in rl, alliance members, new players that are lvl 1, players that are 80+.... for cheating.

And some of which i know have been banned, and likely mostly due to me reporting them. (some of which i've even informed that i've reported them, and they come back on another acount after they do indeed get banned only to get banned again because they wanted thier account back lol?)...

It's very simple, read the eula, don't break it, and everything is fine, and if you find someone else breaking it, report them.

You said the EULA is what constitutes a cheater or not. Yet you fail to take into account things which are substantially the same conduct, stating one is ok and one is not. According to your replies I could send someone an item of mine through the mail for in game items because that is not technically 'buying' the adena. This could be done with the intent of the person selling that item for money, but that still is not violating the terms. The EULA SHOULD deal with intent behind actions but it doesn't. Account sharing was/may still be against the ToS or EULA, yet NCSoft has stated they refuse to actually enforce that rule. From what you stated, everyone who has account shared should therefore be banned because at least at one point that person violated the EULA. You mistook my statement about an automated player being in your party. I'm saying you are playing your character. You are not violating the EULA, yet you are getting a benefit from someone else in your party violating the terms. It is very easy for someone to construe this as you also cheating. You saying that we should blindly agree that violating the EULA means someone is a cheater and not violating the EULA means that that person is in no way cheating is ridiculous. Have you ever looked at how courts in the United States look at if someone is guilty/not guilty of a crime? Intent is a HUGE issue and makes up one of the elements of most crimes. If you group with someone who is using a 3rd party program to automate a character in your party IN ORDER TO GAIN THE BENEFIT OF HIM USING IT, how can you possibly say you are not culpable? This is in no way a bright line situation no matter what ncsoft tries to make of it. Not to mention the fact that ncsoft basically just ignores the whole situation. Not only are players buying money/powerleveling but the obvious bots are there month after month when I report them daily. It amazes me how people can use the same macros to shout chat selling stuff in giran for months and ncsoft doesn't try to do anything when I've reported them 30+ times with obvious proof.

Ok, so how do you look at more grey areas?

ok

What about being with friends in a group and going afk for 10 minutes with their approval?an hour with their approval?

That's fine, nothing wrong there (well maybe parts of the party may not agree, but that's party leaders dicission)

Paying someone to be afk in their group leeching (with adena you made legitly in game)

Again, nothing wrong there as the terms are still within the games peramiters and the leader still makes the decisions.

Sharing accounts?

This is a definite grey area, while personally, depending on how you interpret the agreements, the moment you share your account with anyone, you VOID any chance of retreiveing or getting support for hacking related incedents. This is of course in the case that you share your account with obviously someone not within your family (although it's still grey there). Far as that goes, If you agree that, ok, if something goes wrong and my toons are stripped, deleted, that i won't be able to get them back through the help of ncsoft, therefore i share, all should be dandy, definitely no grounds for a ban.

Being in a group with someone who is using a prophet account which isn't theirs?

Long as the real owner is aware of it and agreed to my above statement.

Being in a party with someone using a bot program to automate the buffer (they are playing another character actively)

This is a breach of the elua, doesn't matter if you playing a million other characters legitimately, if you have only one account/toon that is being automated in any way, that account and ALL accounts SHOULD be banned permanently.

Not using real money to buy adena/leveling but you doing favors outside of game for a friend doing favors inside game for you (I.E. you are a lawyer and you help a friend with a legal matter and that person levels your character for 2 hours or pays you 1 million adena)

You used the word "Friend", But even in the case that they weren't your friend, no adena was bought, no account lvling service was purchased in actuality. You still void your "my account was hacked, i want my stuff back" chance.

If you are ok with account sharing what about paying in adena for someone using your account to do a set of quests for you?

Void of the "i got hacked, give me my stuff back" help, otherwise Still using the game rules, nothing wrong with that still

Unless you are unclanned, never play with others at some point someone could call you a cheater... You were in a party with someone who used an account that wasn't theirs could be seen as cheating by some. There are greater and lesser offenses of 'cheating' and everyone who has played this game could be seen as a cheater.

This is where the seperation of idots and stupidity are needed. As anyone can call anyone else a cheater without any form of merit. Or call someone legitimate when they are clearly not.

The grounds for calling someone cheater is only based on that of the EULA presented. IF nothing in the EULA is broken, then there is no cheating.

AKA,

If you use any 3rd party program to get any form of even a smidge of an advantage, your cheating, if you buy or sell adena/items/weapons or anything for RL cash, your cheating, if your using Exploits that give you an advantage in the game, your cheating. so on an so forth.

Should a culpable mental state be part of the determination of someone being a cheater or should this be a case for strict liability? I.E. you break a rule you are guilty even if you had an innocent mind and did not mean to break the rule.

**** straight, When you load up lineageII, the agreement is right there, smack dab in your face and you HAVE to click "AGREE" to continue, when you agree, you agree to all of it, and if you didn't read it, and broke them, your a cheater, and therefore should be banned permenantly.

The point of this post is that no one is completely innocent who plays this game when you look at every definition of being a 'cheater.' Simply making a broad statement 'all cheaters should be banned' if taken literally asserts a case for everyone who plays this in America at least being banned and the servers shut down. (I do not know how 2boxing, sharing accounts etc is seen in other regions so I cannot speak on their conduct)

Unfortuneately your completely incorrect, as indeed, every cheater should be banned,

Because you or others don't know where the "cheater/Legit" lines are, doesn't mean you can call "fowl" and claim innocents.

As it's been pointed out, you break the eula, your a cheater, you should be banned, there is no grey area there.

I've reported clan members, friends (saposedly), party members, people i've never met, people that i've met in rl, alliance members, new players that are lvl 1, players that are 80+.... for cheating.

And some of which i know have been banned, and likely mostly due to me reporting them. (some of which i've even informed that i've reported them, and they come back on another acount after they do indeed get banned only to get banned again because they wanted thier account back lol?)...

It's very simple, read the eula, don't break it, and everything is fine, and if you find someone else breaking it, report them.

You said the EULA is what constitutes a cheater or not. Yet you fail to take into account things which are substantially the same conduct, stating one is ok and one is not.
(...and so on, and so forth...)

Look here. You don't need to find excuses to be legit. You just are.

On the other hand, a cheater will desperately try to convince himself and others that "no one is completely innocent"... isn't it funny?

You said the EULA is what constitutes a cheater or not. Yet you fail to take into account things which are substantially the same conduct, stating one is ok and one is not. According to your replies I could send someone an item of mine through the mail for in game items because that is not technically 'buying' the adena.This could be done with the intent of the person selling that item for money, but that still is not violating the terms. The EULA SHOULD deal with intent behind actions but it doesn't. Account sharing was/may still be against the ToS or EULA, yet NCSoft has stated they refuse to actually enforce that rule. From what you stated, everyone who has account shared should therefore be banned because at least at one point that person violated the EULA.

You are correct, in my case of writing the reply, i was getting sidetracked and managed to fail in making my points a little more clear, and even screwing up on them.

Any service, of any type, provided is a form of payment. If it's not technically a purchase per say with RL money, but it's indeed a form of curency in the labour/time factor.

It's still a bannable offence and breaks the elua, the only major issue is to define and figure OUT how/why/what/who is perhaps providing the play without the actual owner doing the work.

Completely agree that this specific area is more grey then black and white as theres technically no REAL way for ncsoft to figure out if it's a friend playing or if someone has been highered to do it, OR if it's even a fellow family member.

You mistook my statement about an automated player being in your party. I'm saying you are playing your character. You are not violating the EULA, yet you are getting a benefit from someone else in your party violating the terms.

This case is fairly straight forward, But considering that cheaters tend to be dishonest to get the gains of it, they won't admin to it unless they are repeatedly caught.

People have been banned for sitting AFK or even playing "legitimately" in parties that are either partially or fully ran by automated players. Alot of these people can't even begin to "claim" they didn't know... but some do.

I've been in such parties that i had just joined, and realized shortly that they were automated players playing. I jump out of group and report the players. Another case of seeing some of these players getting banned. It's the best when they admit to it or give very clear hints that they are doing it within the game itself. Makes banning a hell of alot quicker and easier, specially if you can get them to slip. (play the mind game, it's actually fun and a sense of accomplishment is achieved).

The only issue ncsoft has is that they have to have multiple instances of this occuring or at least long run periods. If a player is found to be grouping frequently with these players, there are very VERY liable for getting banned. It is the players own job to be as aware as possible to thier surroundings, as unfortuneate as it is.

It is very easy for someone to construe this as you also cheating. You saying that we should blindly agree that violating the EULA means someone is a cheater and not violating the EULA means that that person is in no way cheating is ridiculous. Have you ever looked at how courts in the United States look at if someone is guilty/not guilty of a crime? Intent is a HUGE issue and makes up one of the elements of most crimes. If you group with someone who is using a 3rd party program to automate a character in your party IN ORDER TO GAIN THE BENEFIT OF HIM USING IT, how can you possibly say you are not culpable?

as i stated above, i think we agree that being a 3rd party or purposely reeping the benefits of a 3rd party tool while not specifically using it yourself is no better then being the driver of a getaway car as you KNOW full well what was happening and what is going on. Therefore bannable offense.

his is in no way a bright line situation no matter what ncsoft tries to make of it. Not to mention the fact that ncsoft basically just ignores the whole situation. Not only are players buying money/powerleveling but the obvious bots are there month after month when I report them daily. It amazes me how people can use the same macros to shout chat selling stuff in giran for months and ncsoft doesn't try to do anything when I've reported them 30+ times with obvious proof.

Yes it's very irritating that some of these obvious botters are slipping through the enourmous cracks. But this is mostly caused by the now general acceptance of these programs, even when ncsoft still has them as a banable offence, and now ncsoft is struggling with the disorder at hand. As i've stated over and over again, the EULA needs to make some radical changes so they can ban people without much of any investigation. Or else it's going to get to the point where there simply isn't any point in banning anyone, everyone will be botting, no real players playing except for the toons already maxed out in both gear/enchants/adena, and even then it's getting so bad that those players are still using radar/zoomhacks/stats 3rd party program utilities so they have zero limitations. And in the worse cases, 3rd party program to automate there own character to target and shoot so they can be "seen" as the best. *sigh*... tiss a sad ordeal.

And things could be changed significantly with the chance of restoring the game to it's orginal state in only 2 ways. Start hiring specific people and giving them the power to move/ban and test questionable players at thier own discretion, or wipe the servers and start fresh.

A new server is always a "bright" possibily, but to bad that the older rules still apply and the automatons are the first to jump on and move on up the ladders without any major issues.. as mass banning always leaves the strays to continue.

I just feel there should be more clearly defined rules. I play on gustin and in the past some of the higher level clan leaders would sit afk for hours in farmer/automatted groups (not saying this player was automated) and according to the EULA this is ok. It seems that if you are getting a benefit from automated players that should be against the EULA, at the very least if you knew you were getting this benefit.

I'm not going out of my way saying that NCSoft needs to define this better because I'm a cheater. I have already stated that I try to get these players banned all the time, to no avail.
Hell, I should give up on trying to get them to put down better rules and just ask them to follow the rules they've already set forth in bannings. If they did that alone it would be a huge improvement.

You said the EULA is what constitutes a cheater or not. Yet you fail to take into account things which are substantially the same conduct, stating one is ok and one is not.
(...and so on, and so forth...)

Look here. You don't need to find excuses to be legit. You just are.

On the other hand, a cheater will desperately try to convince himself and others that "no one is completely innocent"... isn't it funny?

Lol, one day in giran when it was really ticking me off that they were getting away with afk spamming I actually asked a GM to let me ban them :)
If they would have live GMs to do this or even give it out to a few trusted players who must provide some sort of proof to NCSoft with an appeal process for player who was banned it would be awesome.

And things could be changed significantly with the chance of restoring the game to it's orginal state in only 2 ways. Start hiring specific people and giving them the power to move/ban and test questionable players at thier own discretion, or wipe the servers and start fresh.

I also hate it when people multi post huge long threads, and make them reallyyyyy long!! :p

I also do hate when someone doesn't have anything constructive to post either.

I agree that using RL money to buy in-game Adena or to power-level is equally bad, and is also cheating.

Aside from that, however, defining a cheater in this game, imho, can walk a fine line. Mostly because botters and ebayers are so prevalent, it's hard to discern the effect they have on you in the game.

For instance...what if you need help killing a raid boss to complete your class change quests and so you camp out and join a pick-up party; how do you know if all those people are legit? You may not even know if everyone in your clan/alliance is legit. You don't know if the dwarf you bought the clean SoM is legit, let alone 11+ SA Crystals that you might not be able to level yourself. Even in your example, you had the caveat of "assuming...powerlevelers are not breaking the rules..." but how do you confirm that? Any of those things could technically make you a cheater; or do you not think so? Does ignorance become an excuse to call yourself legit?

In order to be 100% legit, you'd have gather all your own matz, craft everything yourself, OE your own weapons/armor, solo the entire time or else have some way to ensure that everyone you party with is also 100% legit, etc. etc.

Assuming, that you mean buying levels for RL mooney, then there is no difference in the two for me.

Cheaters are Cheaters. There is no such things as being "just a bit a cheater". You can also not be "somewhat pregnant". You are a cheater or you are not a cheater.

All cheaters deserve to be banned, regardless of how they cheated.

If you mean buying powerleveling for adena, which was aquired the legal way in game, then the person buying levels is not breaking any rules. Assuming, that also the powerlevelers are not breaking the rules, the whole team is fine.

Buying money is always cheating.

Somewhat Kitten

I agree that using RL money to buy in-game Adena or to power-level is equally bad, and is also cheating.

Aside from that, however, defining a cheater in this game, imho, can walk a fine line. Mostly because botters and ebayers are so prevalent, it's hard to discern the effect they have on you in the game.

For instance...what if you need help killing a raid boss to complete your class change quests and so you camp out and join a pick-up party; how do you know if all those people are legit? You may not even know if everyone in your clan/alliance is legit. You don't know if the dwarf you bought the clean SoM is legit, let alone 11+ SA Crystals that you might not be able to level yourself. Even in your example, you had the caveat of "assuming...powerlevelers are not breaking the rules..." but how do you confirm that? Any of those things could technically make you a cheater; or do you not think so? Does ignorance become an excuse to call yourself legit?

In order to be 100% legit, you'd have gather all your own matz, craft everything yourself, OE your own weapons/armor, solo the entire time or else have some way to ensure that everyone you party with is also 100% legit, etc. etc.

All but one of those interactions with cheaters are not listed in the EULA which is why they wouldn't be technically cheating. If you party with a group long enouch you will know if they are botting at which point you should drop em and report em. Up till that point your not morally cheating, That also applies to the other ineractions you listed buying gear or shots. If you know they are cheaters and you do business with them, your morally cheating. There is no grey area there. If you don't know and you do business with them your clean. How NCsoft handles those situations has nothing to do with the morality of it. When it comes down to it thats what defines cheating.

I agree that as long as your not breaking EULA rules, then you are not technically a cheater. As you said, NCSoft defines what cheating is and isn't in the end.

Morally, however, I still believe there is a grey area. Blind ignorance is not a good excuse; just because you don't know doesn't mean your clean imo--I guess that's just me though. And I think the alternative is just too difficult to do and still enjoy the game at its fullest.

All but one of those interactions with cheaters are not listed in the EULA which is why they wouldn't be technically cheating. If you party with a group long enouch you will know if they are botting at which point you should drop em and report em. Up till that point your not morally cheating, That also applies to the other ineractions you listed buying gear or shots. If you know they are cheaters and you do business with them, your morally cheating. There is no grey area there. If you don't know and you do business with them your clean. How NCsoft handles those situations has nothing to do with the morality of it. When it comes down to it thats what defines cheating.

It's kind of funny to experience some of the ways people cheat first hand. I was in a group of 4 live people and I had my SE outside party sitting down to recharge me every so often/emp me. There was one guy playing his toon and a prophet. I found out partway through xping with him that the prophet was automated. At first I was just like wow, this guy is REALLY good at buffing, until I started getting wind walk herbs on the ground and the prophet would immediately autocast wind walk on me when the herb took affect. I stayed in the party for about 10 minutes after I figured it out just laughing at how dumb the programming was then left the group. I guess you could consider me a cheater for my 10 minutes of xp with that knowledge, but I don't consider that hugely wrong.

there is nothing wrong with a make sure grace period.

I've been a group an entire buff round just to see if anything else would show up... hell in some cases a wee bit longer... as finding out one thing is automated.... could oventually lead to finding out something else is not right as well.

The fact of the matter is, that basically 90% or better of the adena/material/armor/weapons/jewels and such in circulation right NOW, are all dirty....

it's pretty much impossible to consider even a new player, that someone give them straight up half a million adena to get started.. is already cheater...... just because that adena was made by selling something that some cheater has purchased and used to buy it with.