Why do Destroyers with a bow have far more Patk/Damage Output than an equal level Archer with the same bow?
I mean come on, a Destroyer can get 13k+ Patk with a Bow.
Granted, their Accuracy and Distance are no where near that of an Archer or even a Dagger class, but still, that's just stupid.
Thats with frenzy tho right?
Cant have frenzy on all the time.....
Archers also have 300 more range over a destroyer.
If your trying to get at archers being gimp, or destroyers being overpowered, I dont think you'll get a lot of agreement.
If the bow crit rate would be like [sword crit rate/3] it would make sense . But archers nearing 500 crit rate with current p atk and stacking crit damge buffs = complete [censored] . Same aplies to any other class with bow . Wth even SE with Soul Bow has more p atk than SK with DLE .
Like Hutch said... with Frenzy which means you are close to the other world ;)
Anyway p.atk isn't most important here, coz with your Destroyer DEX and lack of masteries he shoot sloow and lack of accuracy A LOT! I guess he never hit archer for example ;) Dest. lauch frenzy, archer UE, both skills will fade and what? ....Figure it out on yourself ;)
The logic is in the 2 self buffs that stack and are +% to pattk, thus they boost the pattk with any weapon. Same logic as why Tyrants have the highest attack speed with any weapon, their skills and totems are generic boosts that affect all weapons.
I have more pattk than a Dagger when I'm using a Dagger. I have more pattk with a Polearm than a Warlord with one. I have more pattk with duals than a Gladiator will ever even dream about. It's all about 2 short duration self buffs that boost the pattk.
Frenzy is already limited for 30% HP for activation and drops our Pdef severely. It lasts 90seconds and has a long cooldown timer. Frenzy is 200% Pattk boost.
Rage is 90seconds, adds 55% pattk, drops Pdef alot and stacks with Frenzy.
Now then, why do magic skills with much less power deal much more dmg? Crush of Doom has 7635 power at lvl 74 and it still does less dmg than some **** Vortex with 139 power.
Or why does Archer classes have more range? Range should be determined by the STR of the user.
We're DESTROYERS, we DESTROY hence the high pattk.
Thats with frenzy tho right?
Cant have frenzy on all the time.....
Archers also have 300 more range over a destroyer.
If your trying to get at archers being gimp, or destroyers being overpowered, I dont think you'll get a lot of agreement.
All of what you said, is something I know and not trying to argue(lets not even go into the whole gimp thing).
What I am saying, is that shouldn't it be the other way around.....meaning even for "cosmetic purposes" that Archers would have higher Patk w/ a bow than anyone else?
What I am saying, is that shouldn't it be the other way around.....meaning even for "cosmetic purposes" that Archers would have higher Patk w/ a bow than anyone else?
And what makes you think that Destroyers are not archers?
They do not have specific "archer" skills? Well, imagine what would happen if they'd got these :D
41 STR + frenzy + A grade bow + buffs-> 13k p.atk (+ vicious stance for critical :p)
frenzy last only 2 min, work only when HP are under 30% and can't be reused imediatly.
without frenzy, p.atk drop to 1-2k p.atk (i think that frenzy is the only destr's decent skill)
More, destro have 26 DEX, and miss all the time.
Destro + bow = ultimate power of the last chance before dying !
Frenzy the only usefull skill? How about Rage that is also needed for that pattk. How about Guts that is a mobile UD? How about Battleroar that is BTB+heal for the same amount. How about Crush of Doom?
Well, for instance, Legolas was portrayed as a perfect archer. He was quick and nimble and very accurate.
Now lets take the same scenario, but replace Legolas with Arnold Schwarzenegger.......
Yeah, Arnorld can do it, but no where near as effective as Legolas.
That's where I'm coming from. ^^
Legolas = LOTR. L2 != LOTR. Simple as that, no? If you take LOTR as an example, WS and BH should be one of the best pvpers lol. And there would be very few nukers to begin with.
Like Hutch said... with Frenzy which means you are close to the other world ;)
Not so close since C4 and I bet you don't realise that with sush a patk he only needs to hit you... once.
Anyway p.atk isn't most important here, coz with your Destroyer DEX and lack of masteries he shoot sloow and lack of accuracy A LOT! I guess he never hit archer for example ;) Dest. lauch frenzy, archer UE, both skills will fade and what? ....Figure it out on yourself ;)
Fade.. but not before you're dead. I've experienced it. And He does hit archers. Moreover he has plenty of time to do so due to his pdef... and his 25% HP pool wehn in frenzy are way enough to place a few attempts while you try to get him to 0%...
The point of this thread is well known and has been beaten to death.
The conclusion is that NO CLASS should outperform a GENUINE WEAPON WIELDER in a category for which they DON'T HAVE THE SKILL MASTERY.
Don't have sword mastery ? Then you can't outperform someone with sword mastery, even when FRANTIC.
Don't have bow mastery ? then how in the hell could you be more skilled at it then an archer ? Moreover when frantic !
Get frantic with your own weapons of choice.
It's those topics who make me wonder where's the Balance Guy...
Eh, a Frenzied+Raged destroyer has crap for Pdef. Secondly, the range is still 600 so a skilled archer wont never ever get hit. Same for nukers, 900 range >>>> 600 range. Especially when you can slow.
All the topics about nukers and archers make me wonder where's the Balance Guy. For crying out loud, there's only a Dozen Destroyers out there to start with and you people cry like they're killing you 24/7.
Frenzy can be interrupted. Rage can be interrupted. Both can be totally avoided by kiting untill they fade. If you're so thick as to stand still and let him get into range, then you deserve to die.
A class that sacrifices Defense for a momentary spike in dmg output, and you cry like babies. Wake up. Nukers and Archers are dealing _constant_ high dmg from long range, Destroyers aint nothing compared to that.
And what makes you think that Destroyers are not archers?
Well, for instance, Legolas was portrayed as a perfect archer. He was quick and nimble and very accurate.
Now lets take the same scenario, but replace Legolas with Arnold Schwarzenegger.......
Sorry to disagree, but for ranged PvP party I'd prefer Terminator over Legolas :D
Destroyers CAN have Frenzy basically all the time. Its called Tallum Heavy set, Haste 2, Berserker Spirit, Dance of Fury and TWO, count em, TWO Sword Muse songs that stack that lower skill re-use DRAMATICALLY. With just the SM lvl 77 song (Song of Renewal) a Destroyer can Frenzy 3 times in a less than 8 min period. So with JUST Renewal a Destroyer could have Frenzy going just a little over half the time while hunting. Also with Renewal and atk speed buffs they can practically have Rage running all the time. If you truly doubt me watch this vid. Its 7 min 30 sec long but right after I stopped Fraps I refrenzied the Destroyer in the party......and I don't even have Song of Champion yet!!
Destroyers CAN have Frenzy basically all the time. Its called Tallum Heavy set, Haste 2, Berserker Spirit, Dance of Fury and TWO, count em, TWO Sword Muse songs that stack that lower skill re-use DRAMATICALLY.
Does it still help to switch to a dagger right before casting Frenzy? :D
Oh yea, couldn't do without DoomCryer's UBER Chant of Victory. ORCs are GODs in this game, I simply don't understand why more people don't see this. Once ORCs are high lvl they are on top of their game. You cannot say an OL or WC or Tyrant or Destroyer is bad past lvl 66 or something, they are GODs. All bow before ORC :eek:
Destroyers CAN have Frenzy basically all the time. Its called Tallum Heavy set, Haste 2, Berserker Spirit, Dance of Fury and TWO, count em, TWO Sword Muse songs that stack that lower skill re-use DRAMATICALLY.
Does it still help to switch to a dagger right before casting Frenzy? :D
Because Orc Des and Tyr are huge targets they have the biggest bullseye painted on their backs from our HP.... And no one wants to walk around as a target.
But i'm happy not alot of people play orcs it makes it a special race. Also it takes the right person to play an orc, not everyone can do it.
Because Orc Des and Tyr are huge targets they have the biggest bullseye painted on their backs from our HP.... And no one wants to walk around as a target.
But i'm happy not alot of people play orcs it makes it a special race. Also it takes the right person to play an orc, not everyone can do it.
I definitely agree, it takes talent to play an ORC effectively, especially Tyrants and Destroyers. I know people probably think Destroyers are simple because all they are are a BEAST with large weapons of every sort but to play them EFFECTIVELY it takes talent and knowledge that really only experience can bring, same with Tyrants. Already there are too many Tyrants/Destroyers out there that just don't play to their full potential in my opinion. Quite honestly I fear ORCs as a SwS the most on the battle field, they are scary :eek:
Ye, we're scary if we get all the support we need but most often the support classes are given to nuker/archer parties >.>
This is one of the reasons I think people overrate nukers. One example is SE/EE recharge. You tell people to throw SwS/BD a few charges to add another song/dance and people think its blasphemy, omg nukers aren't the ONLY ones who like MP batteries, lol. With the MP it takes to charge a nuker to nuke like 3 more times you can make 9 people even STRONGER or more defensive or whatever. Also people act like Overlords can't debuff mages either. One of the main drawbacks to the nuker's power is their dependance on MP, well everyone throws those resources into them and then call other classes lacking. Well if the weren't stealing all the resources you would see how well Prophets can do after they have buffed and got a few charges to go Root enemies for melee and stuff like that.
Ye, well OLs aint so numerous so mostly they're used for ally heal/CPing more than doing mad rushes into the enemy lines :(
Also, how many high lvl SwS there is? High lvl prophets that are mains? We lack in support big time, and those support classes that we have are given to the nuker population because everyone knows they rock with support. And it's easier to setup a perfect nuker group, dont need to think much or worry about overbuffing.
I'm bored at work. 30 min to go before quittin time. Figured I'd start posting something controvercial to get some activity on the boards. :p
This is called "trolling", and frankly I figured this would be a troll thread from the subject line. Unfortunately, judging by the responses, there are still some people gullible enough to actually argue about it.
Ye, well OLs aint so numerous so mostly they're used for ally heal/CPing more than doing mad rushes into the enemy lines :(
Also, how many high lvl SwS there is? High lvl prophets that are mains? We lack in support big time, and those support classes that we have are given to the nuker population because everyone knows they rock with support. And it's easier to setup a perfect nuker group, dont need to think much or worry about overbuffing.
Yea the thing about Overlords is no one can subclass them so its a problem for sure. Our alliance has 3 as far as I know of, but our alliance is also only 4 clans really so thats a nice % i guess. As for SwS, Prophets, WC, and the such its just about building a good alliance. I've said it in other posts before, alliances that load up on ONE element such as just daggers in C2, or just nukers/archers are never really that successful in the end. Half the balance in this game is established through a well built alliance, balance doesn't start and end at the classes' individual skills, I just wish more people saw it like that. How many classes are support oriented and how many classes are damage dealing oriented? So why in the hell is there such a large DD population? Its a problem but little can be blamed on game design in my opinion. The developers give us tools and classes to use, its just up to the players to use them correctly and effectively. Personally I feel our alliance is extremely balanced. Our last seige we had 2 main high end archer groups, 2 main high end nuker groups, 1 main high end melee group and a bunch of mutt parties to boot that included dwarves, overlords, and tanks as well as ranged classes mixed in. Unfortunately I think our alliance fall short on summoners, or at least active summoners who are able to attend seiges regularly. But the great thing is we have many interchangable classes from all the people that are subclassed. Our alliance at first was mostly support classes, it was actually kind of funny but all those support classes subclassed damage dealers and we got damage dealer mains subbing support so we have large pools of classes to choose from. I know how effective a nuker party can be but its dumb to dump all your best resources into one type of class. There is always a team out there that can probably stomp them
Or why does Archer classes have more range? Range should be determined by the STR of the user.
i didnt bother reading the rest of the posts as i got to this being the stupidest comment ive ever seen reguarding bows. if anything dex would make a hell of a lot more sense for bow range than str, but lets just stick with the passives for range. and the difference in range isnt even that much, just a few steps. oh and by the way archers have better range because of the "long shot" passive skill. if anything i think that bows should be similar to polearms, the less masteries you have the less you should hit people with it. it takes away an archer's only advantage against any class.
Have you ever tried to fire a longbow in your life? No matter how nimble you are, if you dont have the strenght you cannot shoot with it. So why would dex make more sense than str?
And only a few steps? 300 range difference is a few steps since when? 300 range and more run speed makes archers able to kite melee classes without even being hit.
I very well know that archers have a passive increasing their range, but why is there such a passive in the first place? They're not any different physically from any other fighter class in their range. Same dex, same str so why are they able to shoot longer? Just because they chose to follow the path of a wimpy archer?
Have you ever tried to fire a longbow in your life? No matter how nimble you are, if you dont have the strenght you cannot shoot with it. So why would dex make more sense than str?
And only a few steps? 300 range difference is a few steps since when? 300 range and more run speed makes archers able to kite melee classes without even being hit.
I very well know that archers have a passive increasing their range, but why is there such a passive in the first place? They're not any different physically from any other fighter class in their range. Same dex, same str so why are they able to shoot longer? Just because they chose to follow the path of a wimpy archer?
probably, makes sense ina way though. Like they trained to be a longbow (wo)man, learning how to arc the arrow to shoot farther or something. But why should IG balancing things rely on any kind of story in the first placed? It is a game, balance it to be fun, not realistic.
probably, makes sense ina way though. Like they trained to be a longbow (wo)man, learning how to arc the arrow to shoot farther or something. But why should IG balancing things rely on any kind of story in the first placed? It is a game, balance it to be fun, not realistic.
...Bow usage in war was not "I"m gonna shoot him!" style of combat, it was 'put 600 arrows in that general area over there, hope some of them hit." For the english longbow, you had youth training themselves on the bow from a very, very young age because the amount of strength and endurance needed to pull the bow back again and again was enormous. If anything, bow mana usage should be based on con, with a patk of your bow limited by strength. :D
I'm a 76 GC, and i can get 1000+ atk.spd with certain bows with my skills and BD dances.. even more if i get the Cat Queens haste buff. Still i hit for like 200-300 norm so its just like using my claws. Nothing over-powering about that.
Destroyers, 13k p.atk and 500-600 range, note Destroyers get Accuracy active so can get a Accuracy boost. For 2mins they can 1 shot almost any target. 30% HP to work with? Your joking right, any good pvper would know they'd save Battle Roar or whatever the skill is that increases Max HP and heals you, after using Frenzy which recovers the Destroyer back to 3/4 HP. I know what i'm talking about ive seen it, the Titan in my Clan duo's with me and he gets to 25% hits frenzy, rage then battle roar and his HP is back up to 3/4.
2mins of 2 shotting 76-80 mobs in the Cata Combs... and thats with a Sword. Lets not even mention a Bow. 90 seconds of Frenzy gives the Destroyer/Titan the title of un-beatable melee class. No other Melee will ever beat him/her. Tyrants can just about kill them provided they dont have a bow, all they need to do is Cripple them and Kite them around with FB. This is still not a sure victory due to the Destroyers high HP and CP, not to mention his self heal.
probably, makes sense ina way though. Like they trained to be a longbow (wo)man, learning how to arc the arrow to shoot farther or something. But why should IG balancing things rely on any kind of story in the first placed? It is a game, balance it to be fun, not realistic.
...Bow usage in war was not "I"m gonna shoot him!" style of combat, it was 'put 600 arrows in that general area over there, hope some of them hit." For the english longbow, you had youth training themselves on the bow from a very, very young age because the amount of strength and endurance needed to pull the bow back again and again was enormous. If anything, bow mana usage should be based on con, with a patk of your bow limited by strength. :D
You're joking right? Now granted firing into formations is the entire point, but if I can shoot a bolting deer with a bow, a trained archer can do the same. You're talking about the Englishlaw that required all men to be proficient with a longbow. Why? Just like rifles, the learning curve is quick, you don't require much morale to stand in the back and shoot, and using mass barrage skill can be irrelevant.
A bow delivers the SAME power no matter what your strength is. As long as you can pull back a basic bow, the energy transferred to the arrow is consistent to the length of the draw. That's the whole point. If it wasn't consistent, practice wouldn't matter because the bow would shoot random distances and arrows DONT FLY IN STRAIGHT LINES. You aren't throwing arrows. You store energy over a long period of time (draw) and consume it suddenly (release). Having a MIN strength for a bow makes sense. But in no way shape or form can a body builder fire a bow that shoots faster or harder than me. A 70 to 80 lb pull delivers the same 70 to 80 lbs of force once it is drawn. No matter how much time I spend at the gym this can't change.
Bow accuracy in GENERAL needs to be dropped. Then classes that aren't proficient will just miss for their 90 secs of patk. Half bow accuracy and make mage nukes the same hit or miss style. Then we'd be talking about dealing with true balancing.
2mins of 2 shotting 76-80 mobs in the Cata Combs... and thats with a Sword. Lets not even mention a Bow. 90 seconds of Frenzy gives the Destroyer/Titan the title of un-beatable melee class. No other Melee will ever beat him/her. Tyrants can just about kill them provided they dont have a bow, all they need to do is Cripple them and Kite them around with FB. This is still not a sure victory due to the Destroyers high HP and CP, not to mention his self heal.
So, which is it, 2mins or 90seconds? ;) And no melee can beat a Destroyer, are you silly? When you see the Destroyer start using a self buff, you run for it and as most classes are faster, they can be out of range by the time the Destroyer Finishes Lionheart, Frenzy, Battleroar, Rage combo. 4 selfbuffs, you sure as hell can run to over 600 distance by that time and keep on running for 90seconds.
Gladiators, Tyrants, Dark Avengers and SKs stand a chance at beating a Destroyer, plain and simple.
Lower bow accuracy? You're kidding right? You know how many times I miss 6 times in a row with my bow on my SR farming lower level mobs then me? Countless. You know how annoying that is with the bows slow attack speed? VERY. Even buffed with haste and all that good stuff 6 misses with a bow is insanly frusterating.
A bow delivers the SAME power no matter what your strength is. As long as you can pull back a basic bow, the energy transferred to the arrow is consistent to the length of the draw. That's the whole point. If it wasn't consistent, practice wouldn't matter because the bow would shoot random distances and arrows DONT FLY IN STRAIGHT LINES. You aren't throwing arrows. You store energy over a long period of time (draw) and consume it suddenly (release). Having a MIN strength for a bow makes sense. But in no way shape or form can a body builder fire a bow that shoots faster or harder than me. A 70 to 80 lb pull delivers the same 70 to 80 lbs of force once it is drawn. No matter how much time I spend at the gym this can't change.
Having a min strenght for a bow indeed makes sense, thats what I was after. Also, it is not the same for all bows, as you perfectly well know, different bows required different amounts of strenght to be drawn fully. This is why I used the STR to determine range comment. A shortbow is much easier to draw than a longbow. And there's also differences between longbows, so strenght plays a role in it all the time. And distance is greatly affected by the strenght needed to draw the bow. After all, a longbow has a longer range than a shortbow because it needs more strenght to pull back ;)
Str IMO wouldn't make sense at all for firing range. Sure you can pull the string back further, but there's not point in that if, when you shoot, your arrow goes 50 feet in the wrong direction.
If anything range should be bow specific. Maybe a tradeoff of range for power. In real life back in the middle ages a longbow they used in war was something like push 50 pounds forward, 100 pounds back I believe.....so it did require some strength to actually do it but an individuals strength had nothing to do with its potency. Now look at today's complex bows, they are incredibly strong and have a lot of range and do not require that kind of strength. What I'm saying here, make bow range weapon specific. They aren't going to do that for L2 but hopefully they will consider this in future RPGs.
I agree Destroyers are GODs in PvP during Frenzy if anyone is foolish enough to allow themselves in their range. But I don't think its accurate to say Destroyers will beat ANY melee class in 1v1, especially Paladins' 77 skill. A quick and smart Pally should be able to beat a Destroyer 1v1.
what your basically saying by having str determine range would be orcs ( no archer classes at all) have best range with a bow, and light elves ( best fighter class is archer ) has the least range of all classes. tell me where the logic is in that.
passives should be the only thing that determine range plain and simple, i said dex makes sense over str, because dex is the most important thing to archers
If the bow crit rate would be like [sword crit rate/3] it would make sense . But archers nearing 500 crit rate with current p atk and stacking crit damge buffs = complete [censored] . Same aplies to any other class with bow . Wth even SE with Soul Bow has more p atk than SK with DLE .
500 crit rate? not really, i wish it was that high, with SONGS and full buffs, 300ish, but nowhere close to 500. if you go +4 dex on a SR with a drac bow with focus SA (very very VERY hard to get, msot expensive S weapon in game), then MAYBE you can get 400ish on an archer, but you wont have 500, not even with the best stuff in game.
You're talking about the Englishlaw that required all men to be proficient with a longbow. Why? Just like rifles, the learning curve is quick
Actually I think he's referring to the era were the bows had such heavy pulls that the only proper way to use them was to start at an early enough age that your spine would re-align to allow you the leverage you'd need. Maybe you're thinking of a different era or style of bow.
whats funny is that I think Tyrants can have more crit rate than archers with Bison totem. But normally with song and buffs have have roughly 380-400, somewhere in there.
If the bow crit rate would be like [sword crit rate/3] it would make sense . But archers nearing 500 crit rate with current p atk and stacking crit damge buffs = complete [censored] . Same aplies to any other class with bow . Wth even SE with Soul Bow has more p atk than SK with DLE .
500 crit rate? not really, i wish it was that high, with SONGS and full buffs, 300ish, but nowhere close to 500. if you go +4 dex on a SR with a drac bow with focus SA (very very VERY hard to get, msot expensive S weapon in game), then MAYBE you can get 400ish on an archer, but you wont have 500, not even with the best stuff in game.