I love buffers off all kinds, especially Prophets, but I hate the types who just buff and sit down till the next buff round.
I can't stand that no more, that's just rude and annoying.
I think that from now on, I'll be kicking buffers off who do not assist while fighting in close quarters.
Anyone have better means to convince these type of buffers from being rudely kicked out of the party?
Do they have the mana? Prophet's especially are going to run low if they are buffing an entire group.
Thats usually because they buff unneeded buffs. In XP hunting Bless the Body is NOT needed. Some classes can self buff things like wind walk 2 and Spirit Barrier. Also Typically when people hae Prophets they have an SE so the SE could share the buff load or just recharge the Prophet some. Believe it or not but Prophets can dish out respectable damage, it really does pain me to see them sitting around doing nothing too.
Some cases you need to sit... selfbuffs on certain classes are cool and all, but really, they should use their mana for dd skills and not a buff the buffer can provide them with.
If the party is on the edge of it's capability, the only true fun way of full group pve imo, a few party members certainly should have btb on them to survive unexpected adds and situations. A bunch of resists may also prove worthwhile if the healers are on their edge, which they should be to have any fun ^^
Moving certainly makes it more fun. A sitting buffer will just get up and sit down next to each mob though so it's not really a preventative, well - atleast the buffer can't go afk and watch TV, but he'll/she'll still be able to sit most of the time if needed ^^
In less than full groups though, buffers usually have no reason to sit to med...
selfbuffs take so little MP it wouldnt even make a difference to teh classes that have selfbuffs. Its just that the Prophet has to cast so many that it adds up. Also ES and SM get skills that raise MP regen, use them.
Everybodies play style is different. Some people will buff themselves if they've got it, some won't, if a prophet is in group. It's just easier to hit everyone than to figure out for each and every group, whos gonna buff themselves and who doesn't. It enough just trying to remember who needs what. (And I don't play a prophet.)
Sitting generates mana faster than standing and fighting.
The buffer is in charge of buffs. You (if a DD) are in charge of dealing damage.
If the buffer thinks that they need to sit to have enough mana to keep the party fighting without ALL of you having to sit later, then they are doing their job. Do they tell you which skills to use, which mobs to hit, which weapon to use?
Let them do their job, they are the experts on buffing.
<Main is A-grade buffer who won't be working in YOUR parties>
Everybodies play style is different. Some people will buff themselves if they've got it, some won't, if a prophet is in group. It's just easier to hit everyone than to figure out for each and every group, whos gonna buff themselves and who doesn't. It enough just trying to remember who needs what. (And I don't play a prophet.)
Knowing who needs what based on class is easy enough.
Knowing who needs what based on the group's setup is a bit more complicated.
Knowing who needs what based on their person rather than their class makes you a good prophet.
Let them do their job, they are the experts on buffing.
Thing is, most buffers aren't - I two-box a buffer more competently than some of them do when all they have to do is buff. If the buffer has to sit 20 minutes, chances are the party setup should be changed.
to buff full group u need something like conversion = low HP...
but that make u a 1 hit by mobs like in toi ..
so let the poor prophet sits down and enjoy the buffs ^^
u better make 1 and play it and then u may allowed to whine...
btw.. dont think that more than a "handful" ppl on each server "real" play a proph, most are just buff b1shes and boxed, cuz pretty useless (in lack of attack skills) and boring.
If someone kicked me out for regenning you bet I'll remember you. Currently playing a prophet. Next time you're in my party and you're in trouble I might just accidentally hit return2 or get D/C.
In my opinion, if MP allows - DD away - every little bit helps.
On the backside, there's the buffers that insist on DDing even tho it wont allow them to regen enough MP to rebuff. Now -that- is annoying, 'cause then I have to regen their [censored] :p
Well, if you ask me, just playing buffer while the other does all the fighting is boring. I like to be in there assisting with the killin'. However, you always you wanna make sure you have enough energy so that you can rebuff when the time comes, so you don't want a buffer that's out there wind striking everything to death and all of a sudden has not energy when the buffs run out.
On the fighter side, I wouldn't really require a buffer to help fight, but more than once in a while, but for them to do nothing while I do all the work, is just uncalled for.
If someone kicked me out for regenning you bet I'll remember you. Currently playing a prophet. Next time you're in my party and you're in trouble I might just accidentally hit return2 or get D/C.
Agree to that, but sometimes there are profwets who got almost full mp bar half way into the buffround and they got a mele wearpon, but they sit all the time anyways. That's who are annoing. Damage a proft can do with a good wearpon is prety noticable, especialy in smaller parties.
This happens in pre-40 too. My dwarfy duo with a cleric (with a SOL or high end book). That cleric just stands there behind me while I and the dog are spaming shots, and then all xp, drops and spoils are shared. C'mon man that book got higher crit rate them my mace, why don't you join me in waking that mob? The faster the thing is droped, the less you need to heal me for. :mad:
It really depends on the party. If it is a full melee group with a prophet buffer, chances are the prophet has to sit down AT LEAST half of the buff round to regen enough mp to rebuff. When clobbering mobs, the mp regen is just not good enough. And that is when only applying the "necessary" buffs. In a smaller party, or when lots of the party members are nukers, the prophet can DD very well, though.
So it really depends on the situation. Watch the prophet's mp bar, and when he gets close to full, just ask him politely to swing his weapon, too :) But when you realize that he actually NEEDS the mp rest, then you only have the choice of either watching him sit around and getting your buffs, or having him DD and having to do a mp rest when buffs come up. Your choice.
Yep, watching how far below the group's average MP the prophet's is is important also (i.e. it makes no sense to rest up if SwS/BD are running low anyway), as well as managing in terms of recharge.
But people overestimate sitting - I regen 9 a tick standing (and engaged in melee combat counts as standing) and 12 a tick sitting. It's "only" a boost of 30%, meaning when you're careful about your movement (and direct your party accordingly) you can probably save a lot more without having to sit the whole time.
You know, it's ppl like you that cause more and more ppl to stop playing buffers/healers.
We get yelled at for sitting to regen.
We get yelled at for NOT sitting to regen.
We get yelled at for buffing things that others can self buff.
We get yelled at for NOT buffing things that others can self buff.
We get yelled at for helping to kill stuff instead of regenning for buffs.
We get yelled at for NOT helping to kill stuff instead of regenning for buffs.
We get yelled at....... PERIOD.
I now remember one of the reasons I stopped playing an SE. One was because I wanted to kill ppl more, and the other is because of ppl like you who do nothing but whine and try to tell us how to play our toon when you don't play our class full-time. My response to ppl telling me how to buff or how to heal is simply this..... "fine then I'll tell you what mobs to attack, when to use what skills, what mobs to avoid, what skills to not use."...... That usually shuts them up since it sounds just as stupid as a DD trying to tell a healer how to do their job.
Now one type of buffer that does annoy me are the ones that make one macro giving every buff to every class. If you're gonna be a buffer learn the other classes and what buffs they need and don't need or stop playing a buffer.
Edit: After reading a few more posts, I will admit that when I played my SE if MP allowed I did help in the DD. I was always the type that like to get in the thick of things. But if mp was low and the buffs and heals high then I had no choice but to sit.
If the buffer has to sit 20 minutes, chances are the party setup should be changed.
No, that usually means you have alot of melee characters, or full party, that WILL drain the mana out of an (especially non-ebayed) prophets, and they will have to sit down.
I am quite sick of hearing these selfish <censored> who doesn't realize that their great XP comes because they have buffs, a buffer more than makes up for the 1 spot they take on the buffs alone.
The behavior in this thread, now THATS rude.
Not to mention not all buffers have fighting gear, and if the mobs have close AOE attacks, a robed buffer can die very easily.
Wow that's rough, poor buffers. I have NO problems with a buffer buffing a full (that's right I said FULL, not a trio or duo) group and sitting until it's time for buffs again. Esp if I get all the buffs I like (acumen, ww, shield, conc, bts, btb).
I'm easily amused though.
But nothing, IMO, ****** a healer or buffer off worse than being told what to do. "Sit, HEAL, REGEN, attack, buff some useless buff I don't need! etc". I know what I'm doing, mind your own.
Oddly enough, I never get complaints when I play my cleric alt in group. I know what to buff, and depending on how large the group is/how much mana is spare I decide whether buffs or self buffs should be used (yes, that's the buffer's responsibility), and of course based on down time and risk I decide how many of my buffs I should use.
If healers didn't play their classes badly, they wouldn't get whined at. The mere fact that you seem to imply that there is one correct thing to do (by showing the opposite directions as if they made no sense together) that you probably did not play your healer all that well.
I don't believe anyone is demanding a prophet should be up and assisting in melee full time - but going AFK in the middle of the room as a matter of principle, as quite some of them do, is just ******ed.
And Ellie, what do you need BtS and BtB for in PvE? o_O
Oh actually I played better then most. I still get told to bring my healer back out of retirement because most of the current SE's are next to useless, especially by those that used to party with me on my healer. I was speaking mostly in general on that. Me personally though got invited to groups more often then most SE's I know now do and politics never played a part in it either.
It's just sometimes you get ppl that no matter what you do they will ALWAYS complain. I've had my share of running into ppl like that and usually it was only one or two ppl in a group of 9 with all the others yelling back them to cause they didn't know what they were talking about. Sometimes you just can't avoid running into and grouping with ppl that think they know better, and after awhile you just get sick of it.
Now one type of buffer that does annoy me are the ones that make one macro giving every buff to every class. If you're gonna be a buffer learn the other classes and what buffs they need and don't need or stop playing a buffer.
I keep 2 macros on my prophet and se. One for melees and one for mages. Don't like my buffs? Don't ask. I'm not going to do a character class analysis of every friggin' person that wants buffs so that I can give the "correct" ones. It's real simple (on my prophet anyway), I don't zerk unless asked and I don't give bless shield if you aren't carrying a shield.
The vast majority of prophets thought their only role was to buff and sit for 18 minutes while they watch tv or something.
Besides boring themselves into quitting, most people found a boxed out of group prophets just as effective and the class for a main is pretty much dead. Now you can blame NCsoft for creating a bad class, or blame players but I think each has some blame to share.
The people who always complain don't just complain about healers, but usually about DDs/tanks too. Often with good reason.
40 is the highest support class I've played and partied with, 53 is the highest character I heal on. I've had the fortune of playing with enough good PPs and the misfortune of playing in many bad PuGs to know what is possible and what is not.
Example: Why would anyone buff MDef in the Connabi area of the Skyshadow Meadow - where no single mob even has a debuff, never mind a magical attack?
Everybodies play style is different. Some people will buff themselves if they've got it, some won't, if a prophet is in group. It's just easier to hit everyone than to figure out for each and every group, whos gonna buff themselves and who doesn't. It enough just trying to remember who needs what. (And I don't play a prophet.)
Yeah...as a SE who played with a proph last night...I got chewed out for using one of my precious acumen scrolls. The guy kept trying to buff me over and over and over again with acumen so was wasting his MP. He figgured it was easier to buff everyone, everything, than for someone to "help save his MP".
I don't really have to explain myself but I will anyway. BTS is for all the hard areas when I may need to unload every last possible MP to save someone's butt. BtB is so I don't die in pvp or pve FASTER than normal. Its all about keeping ME alive to keep the PARTY alive.
If the prophet is giving every possible buff they have to each member, then the lack of mp is due to their stupidity. If the prophet is the correcet lvl, buffing in rounds and only giving the buffs needed for the type of mobs, then they shouldn't have any problems with mp. A certain class is only as good as the person controlling it, in reguards to PVE. PVP if your a mage or archer your "good" at pvp. I was buffing a full party of 9 with a prophet in BW light.
Inform me then which part of avoiding the following idiocies on a buffer class requires hands on experience:
- Not using root on ranged mobs. I just remember what mobs in my area can do serious harm from a range and use sleep instead of root on those - or if I don't have sleep, see to it that the sleeper takes them instead.
- Not using root right after a mob was slept. I'm fully capable of re-sleeping in the span between a mob waking up naturally and attacking, why can't a healer?
- Not casting the wrong buffs on the wrong class. In a group, I usually know who prefers which buffs even when I'm not the one buffing - it only takes one buff round to figure out.
- Not sitting when MP is already full. Obvious.
- Not approaching an AoE stun/para mob in melee when wearing robes.
- Interrupting (when sleep still works, not as applicable to prophets) cancel casts with sleep. Otherwise, getting the sleeper to do it - even when the mob is being attacked.
- When up, standing (or engaging) as much as possible instead of running around aimlessly.
- Watching party MP and adjusting MP management for efficient breaks - which are obviously best placed when everyone is out of MP. This is a responsibility not just of the healer, but of everyone else also. I found it very difficult at first after I stopped using the boxer, but a wee bit of talking ("you take tanking, uni needs to VR itself a bit") solved most of it. The Self-Buff debate is part of this - if the SR is running OoM before the PP and there is no recharger, then the PP does his buffs. If the PP is running OoM and not regenerating fast enough, the SR does them himself.
- Talking, talking, talking. Tell your party when you leave out buffs so you don't have to rest ("Mi, you really need shield?" - "Nope, I'm only getting hit like twice a buff round."), listen when people protest ("Don't give me focus/dw/guidance, I'm only hitting for cubic trigger!" - "Don't heal me, I'm using BtM and my MP is higher than yours - I'll have the MP back on the next mob."), giving advance notice when you're going LoM/OoM, etc.
It's not that difficult. Everyone else does it, too.
I'm amazed that people are defending the AFK buffer style. If you have weapon masteries (they all do), have a weapon in your hand (they all should), and have a full MP bar...get off your butt and hit something :cool:
I doubt any experienced player is complaining about the Prophets buffing 8 mixed melee characters and needing to rest 15 minutes to get the MP back. The ones who have it all back in 5-10 minutes, though, really shouldn't be off watching Family Guy while everyone else fights.
I'm guessing you've never played a prophet. Try being in a 9 person party. Even if you don't buff BTS/BTB (and don't get me started on all those who will ask for it if you don't), you still barely have enough mana to get the buffs out.
As for knowing all the self buffs of all the classes and buffing around them, good luck. Most classes self buffs do not equal that of a 5x prophet so it doesn't work that well. There are exceptions but asking the prophet to know all of them is a bit much imo.
In many situations they shouldn't, unless its a fair crowded agro place or AOE. Nothing worse than the Prophet running around with the group and getting agros.
I love buffers off all kinds, especially Prophets, but I hate the types who just buff and sit down till the next buff round.
I can't stand that no more, that's just rude and annoying.
I think that from now on, I'll be kicking buffers off who do not assist while fighting in close quarters.
Anyone have better means to convince these type of buffers from being rudely kicked out of the party?
how I would run my buffer if I had a buffer. Easy xp. buff, sit, get a sandwich, buff, sit....ad infinitum so long as their is a dedicated healer. If only I could stand dual boxing this is how I would level me up a SE :)
Did I mention cheap too? I get all that money for no SS cost >:)
My response to ppl telling me how to buff or how to heal is simply this..... "fine then I'll tell you what mobs to attack, when to use what skills, what mobs to avoid, what skills to not use."...... That usually shuts them up since it sounds just as stupid as a DD trying to tell a healer how to do their job.
It should not sound stupid to anyone. You are supposed to be the wisest among them, not even counting your INT stats :D
Really. You are a healer, a recharger and an area controller. You must be controlling all the hp and mp bars of your party, as well as the mobs around. So you must have be receiving enough of the empiric info about what mobs and what types of skill usage are best for your party.
I would ever venture to say that if you are not providing such feedback to your party, you are too lazy. :)
Exactly, he simply stated that he hates when buffers sit to regen instead of killing. No mention of whether he let them get to full, whether the buffers were giving unneeded buffs, etc etc. I'm just defending the fact that GOOD buffers know how to do their job and don't like DD's telling them how to do their job.
Oh, and maline, your list is exactly how I did play my healer. Which is why I still get ppl (after almost a year of retirement) telling me they want that toon back. I also get asked by alot of ppl in my clan/alliance for advice on the class. And what you just listed off is what I see ALOT of buffers NOT doing anymore. As a rule I made it my business to know what each of my buffs did and what each class did so that I knew what buffs to give and what not to give so that I could do one of two things between buffing. One was to either perform as the main healer as well as the main buffer (not easy in a full group mind you) or to help add what damage I could and also help on CC.
A good healer should be versatile to the group and the area, being able to buff the right buffs to the right class. Like I would never give vamp rage to an archer, just a stupid waste of mana on a buff they can't use. I honestly get annoyed at buffers that give my scorc melee buffs, I don't swing at things so why waste the mana on giving me those buffs?
But as was stated, the OP just sounded as if they were whining about any buffer that sat to regen reguardless of the situation. I think that is the main thing that started this whole tangent from everyone. Perhaps if we can all agree that we don't fully know what the OP ment then perhaps we can try to calm things down in this thread.
So far it seems that most agree that a good healer/buffer is one that pays attention to the group needs and plays by ear either giving more buffs, adding to cc, adding to dd, adding to healing, or sitting to regen as mp and group needs allows. Can we all agree on that much?
i didnt read much of this only the last page, but my question is how can you have a prophet buff a full group and not sit to regen mp? on my prophet id just barely get back to full mp in time for the next buff round while sitting down, if i stood up and fought with the group theres no way id regen my MP to full, Its a bit different for a warcryer or Overlord who dont have to regen nearly as much MP.
I was posting a long response, then I just decided its not worth it. I refer to earlier post.
I don't get it, but fine. All the points are things I can and do apply actively - even when not playing a buffer class. But I suppose we won't agree on this until my slacker self has not sat on its butt for 20 minutes in a party once Laeska makes 52.
Re: Who gets which buffs.
There are two class groups to remember the self buffs of.
Summoners: Shield/Magic Barrier/Haste they already have for the pet. They also have a race specific: Empower (elf), Windwalk (human), Might (dark elf).
Elven Fighters: Shield/Might level 2 respectively - for DDs Shield 2 is sufficient if you're very tight on MP, for tanks Might 2. The difference is only around 4% PAtk. They also have fully levelled windwalk 2 and magic barriers. Dark elves also have shield/might but none of the others.
Sorcerers also don't need concentration, and if you're casting it because of lots of interrupts, can take it off your hands for the whole group if your mana is low.
Orcs warrant detailed talking to because of the complexity of their buffs (mystics) and don't have any stacking self-buffs (fighters).
It's really onl elves, sorcs and summoners - and you already save a fair chunk by just not doing shield/MB/Haste on the servitors, even if you don't memorise their race specials.
I know I wouldn't complain if even some simple common sense things were observed.
ETA: As a summoner clan, we always put horrible strain on our Prophet. Here's what you can do - IMHO, but ask with your party - to manage MP.
- No focus buffs on any blunt users or servitors.
- People do their own self-buffs, get semi-skimpy (see above) on might/shield for elf types.
- Don't buff shield/bless the shield on people that you don't expect to get hit all that much if it's you that's OOM first rather than the healer. Let them work a bit, too.
- Skip Guidance for people with swords or blunts, as well as for servitors.
... stuff like that. Just talk it over with your party - most probably have a preference of which buffs they'd most like to do without. ;)
Well, someone said earlier about knowing who to buff and when. I agree to a point. No sense in wasting MP on someone that doesn't need buffed, but, from what I've noticed (and correct me if I'm wrong) if you try to buff someone that already has a better buff, the better buff remains even though the weaker buff is cast anyway. So there's really no reason to get upset over someone using a scroll, or whatnot. The energy spent will regen, and if it's a life or death situation, the buffer should be managing their energy better anyway. After all, it is possible to see who has what buffs on your party members. Just click the little button by their name.
Because people are talking about different things. An SE can easily get her mana back, she doesn't have that many buffs she needs to give out. Then of course comes healing and recharging.
And holy crap, when I am out, I'd rather have an extra recharge or heal, than an SE running up getting agros and do flimsical damage (and wasting tons of mana on selfmelee buffs).
Yeah, the only thing is of course, when people use those things is that then you have to use each buff manually, which is timeconsuming and you can easily end up missing one at the higher levels. Basically higher level prophets use buffs.
The only prophets I've seen lately thats been good at giving the exact right buffs always was because they weren't using macros or shortcuts for their buffs, but something unmentionable here.
My response to ppl telling me how to buff or how to heal is simply this..... "fine then I'll tell you what mobs to attack, when to use what skills, what mobs to avoid, what skills to not use."...... That usually shuts them up since it sounds just as stupid as a DD trying to tell a healer how to do their job.
It should not sound stupid to anyone. You are supposed to be the wisest among them, not even counting your INT stats :D
Really. You are a healer, a recharger and an area controller. You must be controlling all the hp and mp bars of your party, as well as the mobs around. So you must have be receiving enough of the empiric info about what mobs and what types of skill usage are best for your party.
I would ever venture to say that if you are not providing such feedback to your party, you are too lazy. :)
Oh believe me, I did. I guess you just never ran into the hard heads that think they know better then the one keeping them going? Unless I knew the mobs slept, rooted or had some other mental debuff I never gave mental shield. DD's didn't get shield unless the tank was having trouble keeping hate (this happend ALOT in C2 with daggers ><). Even now I find myself still watching the group hp/mp bars alot, sometimes more then the current buffer/healer. Just some ppl want everything, and just can't stop trying to command everyone in their group as if that person had no clue what they were doing. After awhile, if their heads aren't made totally of stone, they learn to just shut up and let us do our jobs keeping the group going with no downtime, no deaths, and killing things quickly.
So far it seems that most agree that a good healer/buffer is one that pays attention to the group needs and plays by ear either giving more buffs, adding to cc, adding to dd, adding to healing, or sitting to regen as mp and group needs allows. Can we all agree on that much?
Well, first of all, a good healer/buffer talks to the people.
Yeah, the only thing is of course, when people use those things is that then you have to use each buff manually, which is timeconsuming and you can easily end up missing one at the higher levels. Basically higher level prophets use buffs.
It still pocible to have some makros. For example almost every fighter will benefit from migh, hastle, focus, death wisper (only blunt users dont realy need focus+dw). Put that on on makro. All the nukers need accu+bers for pve (they are not suposed to be hit, so no problem with bers, and all of them got concetration of their own). And so on.
Depends on the area really, some buffs are area specific.
But if you take the basics for a tank (excluding BtS and area specific buffs like invigor, HW, resists, but including BtB), it costs 557 mana for a level 64 Prophet to buff.
A nuker takes 423 mana, 371 if you don't use BtB.
If you are in areas that require resist spells, HW, invigor, etc. then the mana cost is even higher.
I'm as well one of theos peps who retired my healer becose of how all acted in this game towards them, yes they threten us like [censored], telling us what to do and so on abow, telling us to hit mobs, telling us to regen MP beter and blaming us if we get dontime due no MP left on the healer eg due to many bad pulls or just not a good enought group or they thinking that a healer should take care of all buffing + healing... and so on.
The worst peopels is thoes who actually start to PK you over it, yes this have hapened to me at least a few times under the time I've played an healer, they belive they are so much beter and so on. I have never ever joined an random group after it thoght.
But since my clan is quite empty at the time I was around I ended up buying an second accont made an BH and started partying myself, nobody who complain just so perfect, or just playing with a few friends then and then neither they ever complain they are just happy to have me along.
In any event I recomend to completly backlist guys who act like that if your an healer if you find one never ever party with them again, and tell other healers about them so they end up never ever geting an group, becose truly they aint worth it.
So I recomend stop partying with peps like the guy who started htis thread, all they do is whine or even PK you for it partying with em.
And as a Side note, I'm pretty sure most healers wuld be extream happy if they CULD help out dealing damage, problem is we never EVER have the MP to do so, we need to sit our *** to keep the mp UP so we can recharg and heal the guys and even buff, we don't have an easy life and peoples like the guy who started this thread is just making it a hell a lot worser.
I get told off when I do something wrong on my ES too - I listen to it, I try it, and when it works I keep up with it.
Why is this so different with healers? Do DDs/tanks not usually get asked to do certain things in groups? From my experience, it's all equal - i.e. "pull the aggro ones first, all others aren't social among each other" doesn't come much rarer than "please zerk the casters".
my post was refering to my 57 prophet in BW robes. This was quite some time ago when groups were pretty much all melee classes with 1 nuker for sleeping, Back then there werent macros so buffed each buff manualy, i knew what buffs to give to who. If i fully buffed everyone i woudla only been able to buff maybe 4 people fully, so obviously i didnt just give every buff to everyone :p it wasnt possible. Dont remember anyone complaining about how i played, in fact i think most people thought i played my class very well, it did turn out ot be extremely boring tho, buffing and then sitting, i wished i coulda been up fighting with the group but it wasnt possible to do much fighting back then, maybe 2 mins a buff round max. If people complained about the way i played my class id tell em they're stupid, if they kept bothering me about it, tell the group either hes gone or your gone imo :P
there were the occasional people who didnt knw what buffs they should have, or archers etc complaining about getting zerk saying they die too fast lol, to them it was "your not getting hit noob so your getting zerk cause it helps the group kill faster, so ur getting it whether u like it or not" :P
MalineII, What I ment is that few peopels BLAME and flame the healers for doing a bad job all the time when there MP runs out, they are an easy target to blame as when our MP is gone it's downtiem for the party, some are just to blind to see that it's not always the healers falt in this.
I'm not refering at all to questions like 'please buff' and so on that have nothing to do with it.
Thers a difference between geting asked to do something and being told to do something as well
Depends on the area really, some buffs are area specific.
But if you take the basics for a tank (excluding BtS and area specific buffs like invigor, HW, resists, but including BtB), it costs 557 mana for a level 64 Prophet to buff.
A nuker takes 423 mana, 371 if you don't use BtB.
If you are in areas that require resist spells, HW, invigor, etc. then the mana cost is even higher.
So that's a bare minimum of ~900 (self+tank). And DD's take less then tank (like 400mp probably?)
For WC it's 2k mp (1.9k if only buffing shield to tank) and + 200 for mdef, which is also situational. So in party of around 4-5 people profet has even mp usage as profet. Hm, I knew we (shamys) are good, but I'm still learning how good we are exacly.
Lets see..Robe user + Conversion sword + Mobs with any AoE skills = Dead prophet.
Go into ToI, your prophet and nukers need to stay back because the AoEs hurt, especially the nuker ones that CAN and DO 1 shot robe users on crits.
I dont care if the prophet sits on thier *** the whole time, just get me buffed, and root things or heal when we get into trouble.
We went into the rift a while back, and got to the raid boss with almost full MP on nukers, tank and SE, so we went ahead and did it. The bishop DIED because he was hitting the raid boss and healing, the SE ran out of MP keeping nukers and tank full of MP, the Bish ran out of MP, and the Prophet was able to help keep the tank alive for the last 30 seconds we needed to drop the boss, because he sat on his butt saving MP for when we needed it.
... I was buffing a full party of 9 with a prophet in BW light.
good 1 bunny ... when ur ready with that lame buff speed.. u can start the next buff round , lol
tried that before (+homu /acu) wouldnt give myself ww with this.. buffing until the DD's attacking mobs is almost deadly .. and waiting 10 minutes until all buffed ... yay
prophs still best buffers for small groups/duo .. but for large partys ... better to pick a warcryer,sry
think NC should give em faster MP regen or a load more MP to make em "playable".
until that happens ull see most of em 18 minutes on ground .. boxed and often out of party cuz nothing is worth to make em higher than 56 ^^
evry1 want the buffs.. but no1 want em "leeching" exp ...
We never rested. I buffed in rounds allowing us zero down time. Once I got around 90% mp I would buff all defensive buffs. Once My mp returned to 90% I would do the offensive; Even if the buffs weren't fading. We may have waited a minute or two allowing the SE to throw VR on the polearms. Prophets are good buffers. I wish I could say the same for some of the players controlling them.
Considering that I've met less than 15 people in the skysheadow meadow, and that includes a bot train of five, in the weeks I've been playing there, and that I can go there AFK overnight and come back alive in the morning ...
No. I'm not forgetting anything.
And yeah, if someone *****es at a healer after making them run OOM they get an earful too - in fact, from what I've seen, idiots that waste healer/buffer MP get an earful way before the healer/buffer can go OOM for it, and are usually abandoned rather swiftly.
I love buffers off all kinds, especially Prophets, but I hate the types who just buff and sit down till the next buff round.
I can't stand that no more, that's just rude and annoying.
I think that from now on, I'll be kicking buffers off who do not assist while fighting in close quarters.
Anyone have better means to convince these type of buffers from being rudely kicked out of the party?
I suggest you roam the market and buy all the l2day scrolls available and you have never to worry about lazy supports again.
Well, i didnt read all of the thread, but to tell the OP:
Im a prophet, im using an aoba but i dont assist the DDs. Why? Cuz i have -8 str and ill do without ss normaly around 30-50 damage. If the party is full, i need all of my mp (i can full buff 9ppl without mana up, with conversion i buff with a lil sharing help 3 partys). I ever buff btb/bts/magic shield/mental shield, it IS needed! Once ur a bit into politics and have more then 10 clanwars open u know why u need it. If the party isnt full, i have mp to assist the healer (= more recharges for the nukers) and do root/sleep. I sit as often as i can, i need ever mp (i help the healer when im full, not when regening). As u consider a sitting prophet as lazy and kick him, u will find urself buffless soon. HF doing elpys from that point!
If the party isnt full, i have mp to assist the healer (= more recharges for the nukers) and do root/sleep. I sit as often as i can, i need ever mp (i help the healer when im full, not when regening). As u consider a sitting prophet as lazy and kick him, u will find urself buffless soon. HF doing elpys from that point!
that's not what was considered lasy by majority of ppl in here.
Lasy if then prof sits when he/she got full mp, or is afk most of the time.
by: Johnboy:
so let the poor prophet sits down and enjoy the buffs ^^
u better make 1 and play it and then u may allowed to whine...
The prophet that I have in the clan is the best Buffer/Support char I've ever had the priveledge to play with. He is not afraid to get his hands dirty, he's always right up there with the rest of the group whacking away and he is a great asset both as a Support DD and Party Healer/Buffer.
But when I have pick up Buffers, then I usually have problems as they do not contribute anything.
Yes, you might say enjoy the buffs, well, as a prophet, or worse yet, if you happen to be a Bishop or SE, it is you that better Enjoy the XP. Then again, I guess you can grab a set of heavy armor and a wolf and take the next 5 years to get to lvl 78. :p
If the make up of the group is GOOD, you shouldn't NEED to be constantly healing, and the emergency HP pots that team members have should keep them out of danger. So in a GOOD group, you can either sit and rest every 19 minutes, or you can assist in killing and get faster XP.
As a prophet, I doubht you need the best of Armor/Robes, so surely you(those lazy buffers) who just sit collect adena for 19 minutes are saving it all for gear that is not really nessesary, or for their alts. Which is fine, I've never seen anyone forcing a Prophet to require spam Soul Shots, but I'd expect you to start whacking the mobs nonetheless.
by: Medina1:
If someone kicked me out for regenning you bet I'll remember you.
What are you gonna do? Bring your main and pk me or heal me to death?
What are you gonna do? Bring your main and pk me or heal me to death?
I think it was mentioned before but next time your in party with the same prophet he or she might forget to heal you right before you die, or accidently hit the return hotkey :D. And you go bye bye :p
I think it was mentioned before but next time your in party with the same prophet he or she might forget to heal you right before you die, or accidently hit the return hotkey :D. And you go bye bye :p
You don't think I saw that message? I need to work on my Sarcasm skills :p
Also, IF I kick a buffer out of the party for being lazy, why in the world would I party with him/her next time?
LOL if you want full buffs (since SO many dd's whine for shield and other various stupid buffs they don't need) your prophet needs to sit. It's one thing if you're talkin small party, but a full group that wants 10+ buffs per player...40*9*10 = 3600 mana Drop your mp and go hunting, then time how much you regen in 5 mins in attack mode. Get over it, if you want the buffs they have to sit.
So, if I go up and DD with you, are you going to go down and buff and heal with me with your DD?
The mentality that all a buffer can do is cast buffs and sit 20 minutes is the biggest reason why buffbots have taken over. Because, if all you're going to do is sit down anyway, you don't even need a player at the keyboard...a solid portion of real players even go AFK because of this (thus, "AFK buffers"). That much of it isn't a "well I guess I won't party with Bekkar" thing, it's a consequence of your own actions.
Although don't worry about inviting me anyway--I don't want to party with someone who isn't going to pull his weight. Frankly I'd willingly take a "buffbot" over a "buff then go AFK every time" guy. The buffbot actually manages to be of more use to the party, since if something comes up after 10 minutes instead of 20, I can at least tell him to switch over, and he'll be at the keyboard to do it. The AFK guy isn't even there half the time :p
My buffer will never be second fiddle to a buffbot...I actually put those weapon masteries to use. Not doing the same, if you have full MP anyway, is just leeching.
So, if I go up and DD with you, are you going to go down and buff and heal with me with your DD?
Hmm, how about a compromize......
We group. You buff me, give me enough SS/SpS/BSpS I need to kill mobs. You set yourself either on AutoFollow for 19 minutes, or Sit down for 19 minutes.
Would you like that? No. That is illogical. Just like the statement you made.
Buffers are not expected to DD when their MP is low. Buffers are not expected to DD to simply kill things.
However, Party members are expected to be couteous enough to "assist" and "contribute" when the situation allows them to. So if you're out of MP, rest all you want. If your mp is full and you're afk till next buff round, find another party.
Just another example that shows how ridiculous this is - as a summoner, I always hit things. I could, instead, just sit down after summoning and assist with the pet. The life cubic would also still be doing its job. And I'd have spent my money for the 20 minutes, right?
But that's not how it works. I'm expected to go up and hit things to A) trigger aqua and B) because my MP is full.
The problem of the sitting prophets are people like the prophet I party with, and the one admiral parties with, and the one who can buff that group of 9 in BW light. Prophets who know their stuff. Once people have been with one, they don't want a lazy leecher anymore.
I did the last bits of my level 51 with a capable prophet. We had agreed on who CCed what how within the first five minutes of the party, and we had simply come to the conclusion that we would go for more frequent group rests over not having a member contribute - thus we didn't need to waste a slot on a healer, as the prophet could do that.
She buffed our four people (five actually, if you count me twice as you should) and then started with CC, moving around carefully, and ocassionally hitting things.
Once again: I've seen what's possible for a prophet, and I know from personal experience which part of the prophet's work I can achieve at a decent rate.
Coincidentally, most of those "standing" prophets chew out people asking for buffs they do not need. ;)
What r buffs that r not needed for example? And prophet in bw light is stupid, to be honest. I buff 9ppl in about 2mins (full buffs at festival before mobs spawn ^_^), i couldnt with light armor. If u need defence, do 1H weapon + shield and go +4con-4str and +4dex-4str. If ur high enough to buff without conversion or mana up, grab aoba health. Ive got over 7.5k hp+cp, and i need it often.
its better to have a 2nd healer/leecher with full MP for emergency than a dead 1.
sounds like u know only ur lowbie areas.. there its really np that buffer hit the mobs,lol
and in a right party buffers dont need to fight, just give few heals.
ill put "lazy leecher" on my buffers and all the ppl who beg for buffs the whole day can lick my lolly...
let the "DD's" fight w/o buffs ... may they learn how weak they are :p
ill put "lazy leecher" on my buffers and all the ppl who beg for buffs the whole day can lick my lolly...
ROFL and QFE!
Seriously in high level areas it's just not a good idea to get robe classes in there getting dirty in big parties. I guess I'm just use to providing most of the buffs (acumen, zerk, boa) in our nuker parties that I would love any buffer to come by, sitting or not.
I also haven't been in a party in ages where any kind of downtime is acceptable. A buffer or healers job is to make sure they have mp for what they have to do, how they do it is really no one's business.
Don't get me wrong if the group is dead boring and doesn't need anything from me I'll get up and wack stuff. I just happen to have -7 str and never carry SS (carry too many bsps all the time) so it's kind of stupid to even bother.
There are two reasons why people have alt buffers. First, when all other buffers are offline. Secondly, because of the trend of lazy buffers. Why have a leech with you can obtain a buffs from a prophet/WC that will sit out of party. If there is a good buffer that knows his/her stuff they almost always get a party. However if there is a lazy buffer, why party that player when you can log one that will just sit out of party. Plus you don't have to argue with the lazy buffer about how to play their class.
Which I am sad to say ALOT of people don't have a clue and not just buffers. E.G. like mages that can't manage their MP in groups...... and leave no MP for CC. Or OLs that use aoe root and don't use winter in melee aoe....
I am not saying everyone is clueless, however it is rare you find a mage that knows how to party.
P.s Anyone who gets offended by this last statement is probably guilty of being a horrible player.
I certainly don't know the 70+ areas, but I believe the catacombs which are dark red to me in the front rooms are certainly not "lowbie" areas.
Prophet buffs I don't need but have gotten in melee parties (just as an example) :
BtS x 2, BtB x2, Haste x 1 (2 if MP is tight), Berserker Spirit x1, Acumen x1, Might x2, Shield x1, Magic Barrier x1, Bless the Shield x2, Windwalk x1, Focus x2, Deathwhisper x2, Guidance x1 (2 if MP is tight), Concentration x1.
For an equal level prophet, between giving me full buffs and not doing so, this makes a difference of 905 MP saved on a single player, and I'm not even talking about some of the useless buffs you sometimes get (Regeneration anyone?).
Even on the 75 ding shots, you don't see PPs with enough MP to buff a whole party this wastefully. I'd always rather take a party that goes for easier mobs that they can kill without getting into half a state of emergency while having enough to do than one where spells like BtS and BtB are needed in a PvE situation.
ill put "lazy leecher" on my buffers and all the ppl who beg for buffs the whole day can lick my lolly...
let the "DD's" fight w/o buffs ... may they learn how weak they are :p
They won't fight without buffs, they'll just fight without you. There are enough active buffers and buffbots to totally replace an inactive buffer :p
They won't fight without buffs, they'll just fight without you. There are enough active buffers and buffbots to totally replace an inactive buffer :p
True, true. Buffers overestimate their replacability vastly - just like a DD or tank, it's easy to drop them and find either a box or a new one. Only rare classes (SwS, Summoner - keke) can really afford being unskilled or lazy, since they're harder to replace.
Funny most find it acceptable that a prophet can sit on their butts and not help in the dd or healing.
Heck most would prefer an out of party two boxed prophet now a days for that very reason of lack of any participation other than buffer.
I wonder what would happen if a warcryer/doomcryer or overlord/controller decided he/she wanted to do the same thing how long he would get away with it?
Reason I ask is a warcryer has all the neccessary buffs with the exception of empower and Ol the same way and yet they still are expected to help dd and cast the occassional chant of life. In fact I have never even noticed a warcryer or Ol sitting unless they know it close to buff time and they are low on mana because of chants and mob control.
I know a few prophets and a lot of them play prophets because of the fact they can sit on their but and not have to actually help in any other way but buff every 20 minutes and watch tv while getting xp. And pick the occasional drop.
Sounds boring to me but I guess if they find that enjoyable, to each their own. Personally give me a warcyer over a prophet anyday, they are actually an active member in the party and can buff on the run and still manage to help dd.
Profets need way more mp to buff a large party ten a WC. here is a quote from prevous page
Depends on the area really, some buffs are area specific.
But if you take the basics for a tank (excluding BtS and area specific buffs like invigor, HW, resists, but including BtB), it costs 557 mana for a level 64 Prophet to buff.
A nuker takes 423 mana, 371 if you don't use BtB.
If you are in areas that require resist spells, HW, invigor, etc. then the mana cost is even higher.
A WC of a same lvl needs 2k mp (excluding situational MDef buff).
Also, many WC spend a good amount of time solo, therefore they just have to learn mana managment skills. 1kmp for self buff at 48, anyone? It's also easier for a WC to spread out buffs, they dont need to get 7-8ppl targeted and 7-8 separate casts, but just 1 cast, which can often be done without stopping the fighting.
WC are better in mele fights then a profet (got more str,dex and con).
Also, I think WC got a better mana regeneration rate.
Well Maline, I hunt normaly in 70+ areas. Most mobs r 4-6x HP and hit hard (last time our 76 archer got 2-shoted, he dint had full hp and got ss-mob crits for 1.6k and 1.9k damage) Ill buff Fighter Might/Shield/haste/Focus/DW/Guidance/btb/ww/magicbarrier/mentalshield for fighers and acumen/bts/shield/btb/ww/magicbarrier/mentalshield/concentration on mages. Some need blessshield, some zerk. All buffs r needed, as we ran into pvp often (atm 12 2-way wars). For nuker mobs, ill do resist X aswell. On 71 i needed mana up, 72 is the first lvl i can buff 9ppl without with full buffs.
I dont buff useless things like regen, ill ever buff pvp buffs + aerabuffs. my mp is gone then, ill need to sit (about 14mins +2mins for buffs, gave me 4mins for assisting)
The good part, ill play with friends, not with strangers. If we party and i need to be afk for 5 or even 10 min, no1 cries (like bio/gettin a drink or even go buy new cigarettes). They like me and my work, and they know what buffs mean.
Well everyone needs to go afk at some point for phone calls... etc. I wouldn't call that lazy. I would call it something along the lines of putting real life before lineage2. ^^.
If the clan is at war, then more buffs are needed. I feel as though that is a special case requiring special buffs. The stereo typical prophet only contributes if and only if there is a need to rebuff, otherwise he/she remains on the ground even after the mp is full. They don't start the buff cycle once their mp is full, preventing any further mp regen. They don't off set the buffs which increases the amount of mp needed at one moment in time, hence creating a lack of mp (which so many prophets complain about).
We aren't asking prophets to put their exp at risk when trying help assist dd. For example if there are alot of aoe mobs. This is one example where you can stand back some until they are dead. However if the mages are doing their job (and the group isn't aoeing) then you shouldn't have more than one mob attacking the group at once.
Any additional special cases, are along the lines where you are putting your party at risk or increasing your down time by not sitting and regening mp.
Seeing how you are 70+ you probably know your class well. If we were on the same server I would probably ask if you need a group, 24/7, seeing how it is very rare to find non-boxed prophet ^^
I seriously thought about not posting this response as some may just see it as a rant; but heck, I took some time to write it, so here it is in all it's windbag glory...
I view this thread as a condemnation of the support classes. I'm guessing this wasn't the intent of the OP, but the thread has gone beyond the scope of his original gripe.
The reason, I believe, is the proliferation of L2Day scrolls, the accepted practice of spamming shots, and the ease with which to get a buffer up to an acceptable level to OOP buff and the overwhelming need to grind as efficiently as humanly (or inhumanly) possible. This thread is rife with examples of this very thought pattern. I'll demonstrate - "...thus we didn't need to waste a slot on a healer..." and "Why have a leech with you can obtain a buffs from a prophet/WC that will sit out of party."
This sentiment is sadly very real. Don't base parties on having fun and being safe, but on getting through the unholy grind as quickly as possible.
Buffers used to be respected. Back in the day, prophets routinely were paid 50K for a full load of buffs, and the populous paid gladly. Then came the scrolls, which lessoned the need for buffers. Then came the rec system, which many people felt adequately replace the cold hard cash prophets used to command as compensation.
Parties hardly ever shout LF buffer. It's always DD/nuker. Buffers are the ones left LF Party. As one poster stated earlier, there's not much reason to get one up past a certain level, so why bother? The best buffs are there in the mid 50s (for a prophet/SE), and that can be attained very quickly these days.
Fast forward to today with its OOP buffers, FotM rerolls (all solo classes), people complaining about certain classes not pulling their weight in groups, and in more than a few circumstances, throwing out the weak defense of "I spend money on SS. The least they can do is help beat on mobs or buy me some SS."
So, in conclusion, not only are support classes supposed to do their normal job--buffing, crowd control, healing, watching for PKrs (because they have the least to do right?), picking up drops (see previous reason), melee are asking them to wade in and do battle (not designed for) and if not, they are not doing their job. That's heuy.
Good job taking things out of context - I stopped reading there.
The "leech" refers to one of those AFK prophets.
Yes, if they're tight on MP and need to sit, there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't. However, there are many circumstances in which they do not need to be OOM.
Obviously, being at war is a different situation - then again, if you expect PvP, you will probably not be going AFK as a matter of principle. ;)
PS: Healed in DVC with one pony on ~40 minutes today and never once even scraped at the MP I had extra from BtS. My MP would still have been fine if nobody in the party had been buffed with Shield.
I view this thread as a condemnation of the support classes.
Then you didn't read this thread very well.
Support classes are not being condemned. Lazy people who play support classes and think that all they need to do is hit a macro every 20 minutes are what is being condemned.
A properly-played support character is not doing this, and thus has nothing to worry about. A lazy SOB who picks a support class and expects to get away with being lazy since "I'm just support anyway" can expect to be kicked from my party and never invited again.
That is what has been said in this thread.
Now, if you think all support characters are of the lazy "only need me every 20 minutes" type, then you're doing far more harm to their reputation than I could hope to equal.
Actually, I think we're all in an agreement - the sitting on their butts prophets want a party that'll allow their laziness, the kick-[censored] ones want a party that'll appreciate their MP management and care. Both appear to have their place, and both appear to stick to their own.
My arguement is not being understood. Yes there are people in here stating what you say they are stating. I too am against any idiot who would go afk between buff rounds. But you seem to still think this is only about AFK buffers.
The undertones that I see of some of what is being said in here insinuate that a prophet (or any buffer for that matter) who is not wailing on mobs between buffing isn't up to snuff and can easily be replaced by an OOP buffer.
Buffing and supporting the group used to be how the prophet contributed to groups. Without his buffs, I'd risk a guess that parties would be 1/4 to 1/3 less effective.
But now just buffing and doing the other things that most people seem to gloss over--like watching for CC situations, popping the occasional emergency heal, watching for Pkrs/trainers--that's not enough for some people. Support classes are not being condemned in words, but in actions. No wonder it's no fun to play them anymore.
I was allowed to leech in a party today (the aforementioned DVC party - can't call it much of a job if I'm just popping the cubic and keeping everyone's health full*. Instead of sitting down, I made sure my MP level stayed above that of the archers (%age) so I would have to rest after them (no pony involved either except during the rest :) ), I helped with sleeps as far as I could, I watched who was entering the room and I picked up drops (very important job, but not appropriate to a class careful on MP management as it requires a LOT of movement).
There are many small things a PP can do instead of going AFK - if only telling jokes on # to keep everyone entertained and with it. Melee DD is not required, or even always wanted - but the ocassional root, heal, WoF, pickup (if it's close), or other sign of life would be appreciated from any prophet.
* Because any amount of healing that can be done by an ES is easily replacable by heal potions. Although I do suppose I was pulling my weight financially and in matters of convenience.
I view this thread as a condemnation of the support classes.
Then you didn't read this thread very well.
Support classes are not being condemned. Lazy people who play support classes and think that all they need to do is hit a macro every 20 minutes are what is being condemned.
A properly-played support character is not doing this, and thus has nothing to worry about. A lazy SOB who picks a support class and expects to get away with being lazy since "I'm just support anyway" can expect to be kicked from my party and never invited again.
That is what has been said in this thread.
Now, if you think all support characters are of the lazy "only need me every 20 minutes" type, then you're doing far more harm to their reputation than I could hope to equal.
In addition to that, I am a bit worried that there seem to be people who think that prophets who sit on their butt to regen mp for 10-15 minutes per buff round are ALWAYS incompetent and lazy.
It is important to point out that there are party situations where a prophet just CANNOT help fighting mobs all the time and still have enough mp to buff everybody. Sure, if you totally strip down the buffs per player and do not buff things like btb except for the tank ("you are not supposed to be hit"), no regeneration, no mental shield even though there are mobs which silence and sleep, no shield buff except for the tank ("you are not supposed to be hit"), no zerk, no magic barrier/resists even though there are some mobs with magic attacks and let the party members self-buff them if they can - yes then you can strip down the buff costs per player to a level where the prophet ONLY needs as much mp to buff as a warcryer. But what is then the point of having a prophet in party, if you do not use his special buffs? Then you are at a point where you can just as well invite a SE and pop some haste2/acumen pots.
Some people here make it sound as if somehow "competent buffers" can actually make buffs cost less mp and that anybody who actually needs to rest mp is an idiot. "You have to sit and rest mp? YOU NOOB!" :confused:
So let's make it perfectly clear:
- buffing, sitting to rest mp and then standing up and joining the clobbering when mp is near full = acceptable, good, normal
- buffing, sitting to rest mp and STILL sitting when mp is full = not good, leeching
Simply "sitting to regen mp" is not bad per se. But this discussion lately makes it seem as if anybody who has to rest mp is incompetent.
I think a lot of people miss the point I was trying to say here.
If you buff and then go afk for 19 minutes, you should either solo or find another group who's ok with that.
If you're not afk, do something. Assist fighting, talk, run around, whatever, do something, do anything, just show a sign that you're not in another room watching Spongebob.
Because if you're constantly AFK, what good are you? So when sh** hits the fan, you're there to assist.
Healers get enough crap thrown at them as it is. I've had numberous instances where I've been grouping with randoms, run out of mp with my EEand asked for mp breaks. The groups then pull another whole train and get annoyed with me when they die simply because they weren't listening to me.
I was partying with a good friend before and we got invited to do a RB, so we went along. There was a single healer, ie me, and normal groups. Myt friend was tanking and was the only one clever enough to be carrying heal pots, although i was concentrating on heals for him the group didn't wait for my full mp to come back after i was done buffing. So there i was, struggling to do my job with half an mp bar. I was keeping the tank's mp and health topped up so he could keep aggro, then the nukers had the cheek to ask for mp when i didn't have enough myself.
My friend and I were getting really annoyed by this time, so when we moved onto the next RB and the same thing happened and someone died, the rest of the group started flaming me. I was warning people by this time that i had no mp and they should use heal pots if they had them. We got so sick of their behaviour my friend dropped the whole group. That was one of the best times I've had as a healer.
Now I don't even bother partying with randoms, I party with my clan. I'm in a strong clan who party me often and never moan if I run out of mp or if they die.
I think they're so grateful to have an actual live healer in their clan that they don't mind anyway. People wonder why live healers aren't around, but when other classes yell at them so much its not really surprising.
Let the buffers and healers do what they do, unless you're willing to take the time and effort to level some and try playing them as a main yourself.
I'll never understand why players accept all buffs at once and sit from a prophet, especially a live one.
There is no reason why they can't put up staggered 2 buffs at a time and synch them with BD/SwS buffs. Most party wipes I've been a part off resulted from all buffs fading at the same time and the buffer was AFK or DC or just spaced out. Get Karmian or something for the first buff round and then put on heavy and stay active.
Maybe our buffers would like the DD's to only be active for 1 minute out of 20? Oo
I think a lot of people miss the point I was trying to say here.
If you buff and then go afk for 19 minutes, you should either solo or find another group who's ok with that.
If you're not afk, do something. Assist fighting, talk, run around, whatever, do something, do anything, just show a sign that you're not in another room watching Spongebob.
Because if you're constantly AFK, what good are you? So when sh** hits the fan, you're there to assist.
I don't know how much more I can simplify that.
Yes, and I agree with what you say. My comment was aimed at those who stated (simplified) "a prophet who buffs a whole party and then cannot join the others in clobbering mobs AND still have enough mp to buff everybody when rebuffs are coming up is incompetent and should learn to play".
Being completely AFK is not acceptable, of course.
I'll never understand why players accept all buffs at once and sit from a prophet, especially a live one.
There is no reason why they can't put up staggered 2 buffs at a time and synch them with BD/SwS buffs. Most party wipes I've been a part off resulted from all buffs fading at the same time and the buffer was AFK or DC or just spaced out. Get Karmian or something for the first buff round and then put on heavy and stay active.
Maybe our buffers would like the DD's to only be active for 1 minute out of 20? Oo
What will this help? They still need to throw the same amonth of buffs ALL the time, and it will still cost EXACTLY the same amonth of MP, most prophets I party with usualy never even end up with enought MP siting the entire 19 min to start buff agian in fact htey usualy ask for recharg to be able to keep the buffing up.
Buffing 2 buffs to each member every 2 min makes no difference at all.
I'll never understand why players accept all buffs at once and sit from a prophet, especially a live one.
There is no reason why they can't put up staggered 2 buffs at a time and synch them with BD/SwS buffs. Most party wipes I've been a part off resulted from all buffs fading at the same time and the buffer was AFK or DC or just spaced out. Get Karmian or something for the first buff round and then put on heavy and stay active.
Maybe our buffers would like the DD's to only be active for 1 minute out of 20? Oo
What will this help? They still need to throw the same amonth of buffs ALL the time, and it will still cost EXACTLY the same amonth of MP, most prophets I party with usualy never even end up with enought MP siting the entire 19 min to start buff agian in fact htey usualy ask for recharg to be able to keep the buffing up.
Buffing 2 buffs to each member every 2 min makes no difference at all.
What will this help? ... All the buffs won't be fading at the same time and risking wiping your team. With the exception of the small % bonus some robe sets give to prophets, your regen is the same in heavy and light. Pacing your buffs means you can wear a more suitable armor to fight close up.
Just because most prophets you party with buff to drain MP and sit, doesn't make it right. Just because you CAN buff and drain MP, doesn't mean it's best and you MUST. I've been in the extremely rare group with an active prophet that fights and thinks, not just runs his macros and sits. It blows away the sitting prophet.
In all fairness to the buffers out there, most people are very bad in teams, large ones in particular. It seems the goal is making XP as mindless and boring as possible (/assist macros anyone?), and they push for buffs they don't need. A good team will communicate and work together to improve the XP rate. A bad team thinks they know it all and keep on with bad habbits. It's easy to tell what method works best, hold a room, try different things and check your XP per 20 mins.
I take any siting prophet so it's able to regen it's MP full befor buffs then have 5+ min delay after each buff round to wait for it's mp to come back, thats all I have to say about it.
Most healers in any event will never pass really more then 200 P.atk hell m ydwarf got over 800 P.atk so just figure they don't hit for [censored] and beter of reagen there MP then whacking monsters.
My SE curently with Might have 150 P.atk and it's 58. -8 STR ofcorse, but she's a darn healer not a DD or simular.
What will this help? ... All the buffs won't be fading at the same time and risking wiping your team. With the exception of the small % bonus some robe sets give to prophets, your regen is the same in heavy and light. Pacing your buffs means you can wear a more suitable armor to fight close up.
I can see the advantage of not having to buff everything at once. But maybe I am too stupid to understand it - you still ruin your mp regen by fighting, and you still have to buff all the buffs, just staggered. So over time you would still need the same amount of mp regen'd, you just spend it not all at once. So in the end you will still run into mp problems. That means this only works when you would not have had any mp problems anyway, so the staggering of buffs does not give you any mp regen advantage - the only advantage is that you do not lose the buffs all at once (and that you can wear armor with a lower max mp).
So this makes the prophet better at clobbering mobs (because of the armor and maybe weapon), but it still does not solve the problem of what a prophet should do when he has to sit to regen mp because his mp regen would not be good enough while fighting mobs.
Fighting is the second best MP regeneration you can get. So I wouldn't exactly say you're "ruining" anything - just restricting it a bit.
The point she or he is making that robes are not needed for the MP pool. With staggered buffs, half the MP pool is sufficient to do the same buffs.
And healers can well make it past 200 PAtk - I had 320 PAtk at level 40 on a mystic, without +STR tats or an OEd weapon - I'm sure I could get up to 800 or so easily at higher levels.
And melee DD is still not the only thing a non-lazy prophet can do. Talk/warnings/targeting are all things that don't even require getting up but denote activity. It's noteworthy that especially targeting in a tankless group is good if your tank has either somewhat off pacing or you're surveying a bigger area from where the prophet is.
I think all are in agreement that not everyone actually likes participating prophets - there are plenty of groups that are fine with silence over socialising, there are plenty of groups that prefer AFK prophets over active ones.
Key is finding - and being - the type you want to be.
but u can see from this thread :
the ppl whining about sitting prophets never playd 1 ...
and btw .. if u need a mob hitting proph to help u ... better learn ur DD class ,lol
only thing we ever needed from a proph was some sleeps / heals .. nothing else. and thats very rare, cuz its battle heal drains the mp so quick ..
think the ppl who wanna see melee prophs should make one... and see what happens ;)
its a long way to the late 70's before u have enough MP/etc that u can do all the things u wanna see and ull fell asleep in partys alot , regen mp :p
nuff said , useless to discuss it with bufflechers who know evrything better ,lol
Read much? Melee DD isn't the only thing that's being asked for, but nice try.
Most of us have played with a prophet that managed to do all that, though, so you'd be a bit surprised, no? How do these prophets miraculously get more MP than others?
jeeez, were not talking about ur lowbie 50 -60 areas maline, got it ? ...
higher mobs makes "ouch" and "aoe ouch" ... makes alot SP when ur to close^^
and a stunned "healer" is not really a help.
ull see it later , trust me...
We're not talking about reading comprehension in terms of keeping the letters "a" and "b" apart, got it?
Unless you learn to read, maybe you should stop writing?
People have said it before:
A) The prophet need not be assisting in melee to show activity - there are many other things he or she could be doing.
B) High level people, including prophets and those partying with them, have posted here and stated their experience, which is that it's possible not to sit the entire time.
I'm not a Prophet; I'm a Spellhowler..but..
If you want a buffer, get a buffer.
If you want a healer, get a healer.
If you want a damage dealer, get a damage dealer.
Let everyone do what they are suppose to, and you just figure out how to play your class well. I don't expect a healer or buffer to do dmg. I prefer that they keep their MPs, focus on buffs and/or heals, possibly root or sleep if an emergency (never grouped with one that didn't do that), and hopefully not draw aggro and die.
possibly root or sleep if an emergency (never grouped with one that didn't do that)
So pray tell, how is someone who goes AFK between buffs as a matter of principle root or sleep in an emergency? That seems to be what some people here think a prophet should be allowed to do.
It happens. A lot.
I wouldn't be surprised if I heard of other people who started boxing because of exactly that.
but u can see from this thread :
the ppl whining about sitting prophets never playd 1 ...
and btw .. if u need a mob hitting proph to help u ... better learn ur DD class ,lol
only thing we ever needed from a proph was some sleeps / heals .. nothing else. and thats very rare, cuz its battle heal drains the mp so quick ..
think the ppl who wanna see melee prophs should make one... and see what happens ;)
its a long way to the late 70's before u have enough MP/etc that u can do all the things u wanna see and ull fell asleep in partys alot , regen mp :p
nuff said , useless to discuss it with bufflechers who know evrything better ,lol
From what you wrote there, it appears you know nothing of other classes, especially of prophets.
Fact 1) Prophet's last sleep skill is lvl 9 which they get at lvl 35. So past lvl 58, a Prophet has trouble landing sleep on white-con mobs.
Fact 2) Prophets, get Heavy armor masteries AND general Weapon masteries all the way upto 75+
From what you wrote there, it appears you know nothing of other classes, especially of prophets.
Fact 1) Prophet's last sleep skill is lvl 9 which they get at lvl 35. So past lvl 58, a Prophet has trouble landing sleep on white-con mobs.
Fact 2) Prophets, get Heavy armor masteries AND general Weapon masteries all the way upto 75+
Sleepign mobs is no problem with lv 9 sleep really, my PS friend with -4 INT only lv 9 sleep ofcorse sleep lv 70 mobs at TOI at 50% rate :) so it's not that bad really.
And PS about Fact 2, all classes get some sort of weapon masteries, in fact I know my healer have identical one towards what hte Prophet gets, the damage taken is usualy not the problem here thoght more rater that you won't hit for jack shitt as most suport classes go -8 STR..... we are suport classes, not DD's.
What about the Heavy Armor masteries that prophets get?
To me that means a few possibilities.
1) NCSoft at some point expected Prophets to wear heavy armor so they are more active participants
2) NCSoft develpment team had a logical error where the Heavy armor masteries that were meant for say SwS went to a Prophet and SwS got nothing.
3) From the conception of the Prophet class, NCSoft meant for prophets to be loaners and do the Battle Prophet to level up
4) Some developers got drunk and though it would be fun to give a skill that wasn't meant for the Prophet class. So why not give em the Heavy Armor masteries and Screw SwS class all together by NOT giving them the Heavy Armor masteries, even though SwS are expected to wear heavy.
Which option do you think may be closer to the real deal?
Also, don't ream on me for picking on the AFK, Lazy, Less than competent players. In all the MMO's I've played, there are always people who play Healers but instead of healing they wanna be the DD's, or DD's who don't know what in the world they are doing, can't follow rules of logic or orders from members, Tanks that can't tank, etc, etc. If you say I'm wrong and everyone playes their class what it's supposed to do, then you are flat out wrong and you know it.
I do not participate in 9 men parties cause for me, the XP is crap there. I do not level in Necros/Catas, not since I gave up on my BH class. When I did play the BH, or other classes pre-40 and some above 40 and we had a large pick-up group where many times there was more than 1 healer or prophet on the group, guess what they've done in many cases. Buff, sit, rebuff in 19 min or when people started yelling for buffs.
Parties I preffer are either Duo or Trio these days, you know like myself + prophet, or myself, another archer and a prophet.
Still though, every now and then I get a prophet who tries to sit down every chance he gets even though we're hunting in open fields and constantly running around. The damage output by 2 Archers fully buffed by a prophet is huge, so unless there's a very bad pull, prophet does not need to heal too often.
What about the Heavy Armor masteries that prophets get?
To me that means a few possibilities.
1) NCSoft at some point expected Prophets to wear heavy armor so they are more active participants
Then why daggers don't get these? They are active participants.
2) NCSoft develpment team had a logical error where the Heavy armor masteries that were meant for say SwS went to a Prophet and SwS got nothing.
Quite possible.
3) From the conception of the Prophet class, NCSoft meant for prophets to be loaners and do the Battle Prophet to level up
I think this one is the closest. Back in C1, NCsoft wanted all classes to be able to solo. The Prophets had less efficient heals than other healers, so they got more pdef.
4) Some developers got drunk and though it would be fun to give a skill that wasn't meant for the Prophet class. So why not give em the Heavy Armor masteries and Screw SwS class all together by NOT giving them the Heavy Armor masteries, even though SwS are expected to wear heavy.
They don't seem to get more sober by now, so it is hardly the case.
4) Some developers got drunk and though it would be fun to give a skill that wasn't meant for the Prophet class...
must be this, im sure :p
ever seen what happens when u wear heavy ?
acu3/zerk2 dont help anymore,lol
and wearing duals gives u the final shot then ...
sure u have the option for -8con ;) to maximize the "damage" output... but then u need another prophet in party to buff u :p
at the current game design prophs good for small groups/duo, to be "active".
may thats the reason why u can see more and more WC...
Fighting is the second best MP regeneration you can get. So I wouldn't exactly say you're "ruining" anything - just restricting it a bit.
Yes, second best, i.e. worse :) (if that, I never bothered figuring out if there is a difference between fighting mp regen and standing/walking mp regen for healer/buffer classes, since on my SE I usually do only crowd control/heals/recharges and don't actually hit mobs). For healer/buffer classes there is a HUGE difference between sitting and standing/walking mp regen (on my SS it is like 20 mp/tick sitting and 13 standing).
I party with prophets often - a clannie is prophet on his subclass, already in his mid 60s now. In smaller groups he can DD and regen the mp for buffs, in larger groups he has to sit a lot (buffing a large party takes ALL his mp) and when he is nearly full again, he stands up and DDs. That is IMO how it should be, and I don't think anybody here disagrees.
I think this whole discussion is running in circles right now. I do no think anybody here in this thread actually thinks it is OK for a prophet to go afk while resting up mp. And it does not seem (even though it seemed so to me at the beginning of the thread) as if anybody thinks prophets should DD all the time, and if they then do not have enough mp to buff, it's their fault because they suck.
So I think we can stop this thread now. Going AFK is no-no, sitting to rest mp is ok, but stand up and join the fight when your mp is good.
The point she or he is making that robes are not needed for the MP pool. With staggered buffs, half the MP pool is sufficient to do the same buffs.
True (you just need robes for the initial buffing). Still, you can only do this staggered buffing if your mp regen is good enough to get back enough mp even while fighting the mobs. Over time (over a 20 minute period) you still have to rebuff the same buffs, just at different times. So you still need the same amount of mp overall, just staggered. And that means that you still have to regen the same amount of mp over these 20 minutes. So if your mp regen is not good enough to regen the, say, 3500 or more mp for the buffs while fighting and not sitting, you cannot do this.
Staggered buffing does not help prophets who cannot DD because their mp regen does not allow them to, it just helps prophets who do not want to dd because they need robes and conversion SA to buff all buffs at once.
I know some prophets who do the staggered buffing, and it works fine - but you have to be selective in what you buff, and I cannot really see it working in a full melee party when you are in an area where you also need extra buffs like magic barrier etc. Then you probably have to sit at least part of the time to regen.
And as a Side note, I'm pretty sure most healers wuld be extream happy if they CULD help out dealing damage, problem is we never EVER have the MP to do so
It reallydepends on class and group. I have been in many groups with 3 healer types (bishop + SE + prophet/WC). For such groups SE was forced to rest as much as possible ro reneg people (either archers without CS or BH). But generally there are a lot of cases prophet/WC/bishop will have a time to hit mobs. Though most prophets preffered to sit and rest, while WC and bishop (me) were actively hacking mobs - in case we had some time to get mp back.
Lets see..Robe user + Conversion sword + Mobs with any AoE skills = Dead prophet.
Go into ToI, your prophet and nukers need to stay back because the AoEs hurt, especially the nuker ones that CAN and DO 1 shot robe users on crits.
I have partied in TOI with -5CON and conversion on me. No problems, really. Just being aware of situation and withdraw if you get hit (to apply some healing) makes it more than safe.
For sure, it's unlikely I'll run toward paralising mobs in TOI, if there is no other paralise healer around. But it's another story.
What will this help? ... All the buffs won't be fading at the same time and risking wiping your team. With the exception of the small % bonus some robe sets give to prophets, your regen is the same in heavy and light. Pacing your buffs means you can wear a more suitable armor to fight close up.
You have the same regen rate in ligth armor. But you have 20% worse mp regen in heavy armors (regardless of masteries, you don't have mp regen boost in heavy).
It's not a problem to apply stuggering buffs in time if you are in light armor. But you still have to regen the same amount, and fighting non-stop is generally a task you have to achieve in cooperation with other buffers (healers).
Most healers in any event will never pass really more then 200 P.atk hell m ydwarf got over 800 P.atk so just figure they don't hit for [censored] and beter of reagen there MP then whacking monsters.
I have better than 400. Not a big problem, really. Even though it involves +4STR tatoo, it's worthful to add some to party damage.
The buffer is in charge of buffs. You (if a DD) are in charge of dealing damage.
The buffer is RESPONSIBLE for buffs, the DD is responsible for damage. So, yes, buffer should watch there mana guage, but, if they are up on mana, and buffs are good, why should they sit?
Have an EE that plays in my party all the time. They buff everyone, then, as soon as they get their mana bar full again, they start buffing in turns, so that, eventually, everyone's buffs are 2-3 minutes apart. Basically, enables them to keep their mana bar decently full, and DD in the middle. Makes the difference between her having to heal all the **** time, or only once in a while. THE EXTRA DAMAGE is worthwhile, and should be dealt if possible.
My pet peeve is healers/buffers who don't do anything but sit until they are needed. I'm with the OP, no reason they shouldn't be able to do more than just sit and heal so long as the party is set up to allow them a decently full mp bar in between the time they are needed.
On the Other hand, if they can't keep an mp bar full, then yes, they should park it.
As a level 37 Healer going Prophet I hate just sitting there in a group well they fight even if I don't have MP so I equipped my Healer with DSS and Duals and well my MP is regenerating I run in there to slice and dice some bosses :) I suggest you let any buffer know ahead of time when your in a group how you feel so it can give them a chance to equip themselves as well when it comes to fighting in a group
Because there's nothing worse than a prophet standing up that gets lag, draws agro because they're actively moving around or take AOE/AOE Stun damage because they walk up with the group.
Yeah, but you know what? You'd probably have great fun at later levels having to run around with 2 25+ million adena weapons with the chance of dropping one of them upon death.
It's that kind of attitude that is making live support want to give up the ghost. There are bad live prophets (if you can find one in the first place) but there are just as many "boxed" that screw up too.
Its peoples bad attitudes and NCSofts refusal to give Prophets proper buffs after level 56/58 (they do get a single level of root, which they have to pay up to 2 million SP for)
The only reason to level a prophet between 58-75 is to get to the 3rd class change, but most don't want to bother.
True sorry, been a while since I've played a WC. They get weaponspecific abilties (stun/hammer crush). They also get defensive and offensive spells. So quite alot more than a prophet.
Its peoples bad attitudes and NCSofts refusal to give Prophets proper buffs after level 56/58
If we're referring to the "boxed buffer" phenomenon, then actually the lack of unique buffs after 56 is irrelevant. All that adding more levels of buffs would do is make the boxed buffer be in-party instead of out-of-party. They still wouldn't have live players.
And why wouldn't they have live players? Well, if all a real buffer does is stand up once every 20 minutes to buff, then sit down and do nothing but regen MP in between buff rounds, then it doesn't matter whether or not there is a player at the keyboard 90% of the time...
...which means that you only need 10% of a player. Perfect setup for the boxed buffer to dominate.
LordChaos666, you're doing more harm to live buffers than the complainers--your justification of inactivity is the live buffer's death knell.
It's true that, in a full party, Prophets don't have much choice but to sit down. In those situations, it's an unfortunate coincidence that a boxed buffer can completely replace them. In small parties, however, where a live buffer has the option of providing more than a boxed one, any buffer who chooses to sit anyway, as you've described, is willing marginalizing his class.
Frankly, I feel that any live buffer who is still sitting with full MP has little right to complain about the proliferation of boxed buffers, as he is personally responsible for the "problem".
General weapon masteries are basically like having a specific weapon mastery in every weapon. Do not underestimate the damage that can bring with a real weapon and non-nerfed strength.
Wrong. BtB is always needed. It gives you an extra second to BSOE when you get surprised by someone trying to PK you while you hunt. There are people who love to catch you while you are hunting mobs and either PK you, or your healer, so you die to mobs. For a big alliance there is no risk in going red. Especially if they can escape to the rift.
Our clan usually does not have a prophet when we hunt. Our parties are usually at a big disadvantage when 2-3 necros jump us in the middle of a battle.
BTW this is not a war situation, just your normal griefers.
Actually as soon as she hits 40 I'm leaving heralone in her CG b/c I'm in now rush to get to BG and start leveling my Dark Wizard and Elven Scout up again! So I'm not really concerned about anything as soon as she hits 40 :)
Yes you would. Because people would more actively want to play them as mains, instead of feeling there's little point in continueing to do so, and you might as well play a class that actually gets something.
If the buffer has to sit 20 minutes, chances are the party setup should be changed.
I really hate this atitude. As a WS I have always had problems getting groups, until I got into my present clan. As long as we have the space, anyone can get in. We could have 2 BDs, or 2 prophets, it doesnt matter. We work at including people instead of just making the perfect XP group.
Wrong. BtB is always needed. It gives you an extra second to BSOE when you get surprised by someone trying to PK you while you hunt. There are people who love to catch you while you are hunting mobs and either PK you, or your healer, so you die to mobs. For a big alliance there is no risk in going red. Especially if they can escape to the rift.
Our clan usually does not have a prophet when we hunt. Our parties are usually at a big disadvantage when 2-3 necros jump us in the middle of a battle.
BTW this is not a war situation, just your normal griefers.
Prophets don't have much choice but to sit down. In those situations, it's an unfortunate coincidence that a boxed buffer can completely replace them.
A prophet can be replaced by a boxer in just about any situation.
Fortunate you'd say "just about any"...because one situation where they are hard to replace is where the live buffer is constantly taking action rather than passively waiting for something they need to react to (not impossible, I do it, but definitely not common practice).
Usually if a prophet has to constantly take action its because of a poor group that can't get its act together. But yes, even actively a prophet box can perform remarkably well if needed be.
Yes, afk buffers are bad, same with afk healers, bad assisting dds, bad tanks, bad nukers .... every class has good players and bad players
but bad design of proph class, legal 2boxing, boosting WCs, discouraging players from playing support classes etc etc are problems which make live proph's life harder, encouradge ppl to 2box prophs more, at the end it force ncsoft to make buff-pots/scrolls/CHs/quests/mobs... and problem is worse and worse
other things discussed here is so lvl/location/equip/partysetup/.... dependant thats its pointless to discuss it here
When I log in, I always log only into my main account first. I shout for a PP/Bishop for a while and check on my FList if any of the buffers there are not in party (and being a PuRaid organiser, that friend list is pretty rife with buffers), then maybe PM a few I've not friended but seen shouting before.
One of two things happens now:
1.) I get turned down - flat out. The person would rather continue to shout for a catacomb group (there's a cat near where I level) than duo for good experience and cash with me.
2.) They're all busy.
I've had two unboxed prophets in a group out of clan since I started playing in June, and I've been trying.
I frankly don't think anyone would two-box (especially since, at least on Devianne, many two-boxers run their two-boxed prophet in party) if they could find a non-AFK live prophet frequently. I know I wouldn't.
There's a parallel about this and dwarves, which supposedly can never get groups either, too. But let's not go there.
Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but most people I know agree that they prefer a live(ly) buffer over a box any day, if only because boxing is so hassle-some, and a boxed prophet can't really do anything towards root/heal/emergencies.
It's really the Prophet/healers choice on how they want to play their own character if they want to fight in a raid or with a group or if they want to sit and regnerate basically as long as the healer/prophet is doing their job and healing then I don't see the need to complain and if you are complaining then go make your own healer/prophet and then you can design it however you want and have fun :)
You're right Tiffy, it's all about choices. People can choose whether or not they will use their characters to their full potential or simply settle for the bare minimum. Other people can choose whether or not they will ever party with that character again.
Apparently, a lot of people in this thread figure their party doesn't need a halfhearted buffer when they can get one that really gives 100%. Can't say I blame them.
I can't blame them either but as I said before currently a level 37 Healer going Prophet for the longest time I had a staff and wouldn't of done much damage in the raid but I'm a healer I did a great job healing and I always try to, I even ignore my mom and my phone to give my full attention to the raid b/c we are all in it together but I don't completely agree with the half *** [censored] that you say healers pull b/c not all them do! I currently got Duals to help out in raids a bit more & not because I was lazy but b/c I was bored of just standing there and healing so I try to do both now and I enjoy it so basically it's the characters choice and your choice to let them in your group or not?!? :)
I love buffers off all kinds, especially Prophets, but I hate the types who just buff and sit down till the next buff round.
I can't stand that no more, that's just rude and annoying.
I think that from now on, I'll be kicking buffers off who do not assist while fighting in close quarters.
Anyone have better means to convince these type of buffers from being rudely kicked out of the party?
omg u crybaby. how many prophets are there that are set up to do decent dmg? its not worth it. keeping btb up (or another "useless" buff) helps if u get ganked.
omg u crybaby. how many prophets are there that are set up to do decent dmg? its not worth it. keeping btb up (or another "useless" buff) helps if u get ganked.
Solution to all those complaining about healers/buffers: PLAY THEM!
After 4 hours of yawning you will probably crave for every minute spent out of game window. And reroll.
Guess how do healer feels when DD in group says "I am watching movie, and just hitting assist macro." Wish I could do that.
Then again, even a DD "watching a movie" generally has half an eye on the game at any given time in my experience. Nothing like being totally unresponsive for 20 minutes, coming back for 2 and going away again.
The difference between a DD and a healer though, is if a DD just auto assists they are still attacking the mob. If the healer half arses it, someone dies and loses exp. A group can survive with one DD screwing off to make a sandwich, a healer rarely gets that luxury.
Good point, Ellie. In fact, perhaps we can figure out who is most important to the party.
For example, if a DD has to leave, the party continues. If the BH leaves, everyone misses him/her...but the party continues. If the buffer leaves, the party kills slower and everyone wishes they had a buffer as the party continues.
If the healer leaves, the party breaks up.
Healers: very hard to level, under appreciated, very rare to fine a good main-toon healer, often under equipped, arguably the most important single type of player there is.
When our healers leave we just have a summoner take tanking and slip them some SpS for heals. :p
Traditional group setups ftl. ^^
Although I believe very strongly that traditional groups are not the only way to play, I respectfully disagree that after a certain level Summoners can effectively heal anyone but their summons.
At the higher levels, unless you get some unbelievable skill I'm not aware of (and I played an ES on test at the very high levels) there is no way you can keep up with the damage of the higher level mobs if they choose to fight someone other than your summon. The heal cubics are just too random to be relied on.
I think Summoners add a lot to groups and they are very versatile but they can't replace a healer.
Agreed. A ES/WL can tank and heal for some nub party at lower levels, or in a archer/nuker trio or something but you can't pull that off at most higher level areas.
Ha ha.. oh man. Seriously I'm "roffling" thinking about an ES taking my spot in half of the places we exp at.
Point in fact, I healed our party so the (boxed :p) PP could sit the whole time in the circular Karik room in DVC. Not one of the new C4 places, but not one of the newb areas I'm always accused of being restricted to, either.
We had to sit for the PP's MP, not for mine. Then again, buffing a summoner party puts ungodly strain on support classes that don't have AoE buffs.
As far as emergency heals go, I'm certainly not an appropriate replacement for a healer - but unlike a real healer, I can put out battle-heals consistantly ad infinitum.
And no, I don't use the life-cubic. Outside of emergencies, nobody ever leaves full health when I'm healing.
People might say we are gimping ourselves by hunting in comparitively low places - I retort that there is no reason to go to a place where you need a healer, except if it's a quest or a higher-level BH. EXP is better on white-green mobs than on reds, and so are drops.
The only place I've been at where I couldn't keep up with heals while also concentrating on DD was a rift two "levels" higher than me. It got too chaotic there and one person died out from under me when one of the aqua AoE mobs popped up and we weren't buffed resist.
PS: Healers are still cool to have, you need them for PvP after all (now there's burst damage I can't outheal if more than one person is hitting me :p ). I honestly think they take themselves too importantly though. If you don't have a healer, just go to a place where you don't need a healer - just like if you don't have AoErs, you can go to an area where you don't need to AoE.
Yep - but there's nothing bad about having to spam the battle heals, since I can. You try to make it sound like it's a bad thing, but I'm less likely to run OOM for a significant amount of time than a healer, as 100 MP regenned equals full MP up withint he next minute. :p
I don't say you shouldn't take a healer - quite on the contrary, as you know I'm always open for grouping bishops or PPs. I do, however, think that there is no good point in going to a place where you frequently need to rely on the burst heals from a proper healer as opposed to one where you can fight at a relaxed pace - so relaxed that you won't be needing that BtB frequently, so relaxed that you don't need to push your healer to OOM every buff round (every other is fine, everyone needs a pudding break once in a while after all :p ), and so relaxed that a casualty is unexpected rather than a matter of course (don't know if that's the right expression).
In my personal experience, higher level place offer worse exp over time. This might very well change when I don't have to deal with higher-levels sapping up all the experience anymore - but right now, 3 hours in an archer party in DVC equal to about half an hour of soloing, or two ponies with a PP or 'shop in party (somewhere between 40 and 50 minutes). Each of the mobs there (although they pop more frequently- don't die much quicker though - than connabi groups of course) gives me less experience than a single monster in a green/white half HP group solo.
Yep - but there's nothing bad about having to spam the battle heals, since I can.
You do realize that spamming battle heals in a PVE group isn't a good thing right? I don't care if you have infinite mana, spamming battle heal means your party is taking way too many hits too fast for you to be able to cast a "regular heal."
And spamming battle heals "just because you can" is absolutely no reason to not have a real healer in your group.
Oh and another thing, if you're not getting good xp in a group because of people being too high and "sapping your xp", you're playing in the wrong group.
Well if you are a much lower level than the rest of your party, sure the exp is going to be terrible. With a proper group you can go to dvc and not even really need heals, which is probably why it looks like an ES's heals fly there.
Really it hurts my brain to even argue about it. (not to mention it's going off topic) I'm glad your bizzaro world groups with bizzaro party combinations work out for you. I must be imagining my parties that need a real actual healer to work, not just for questing, not for pvp, just normal exp groups that actually need a healer. I mean god, you'd think they put healers in the game for a reason or something!
You do realize that spamming battle heals in a PVE group isn't a good thing right? I don't care if you have infinite mana, spamming battle heal means your party is taking way too many hits too fast for you to be able to cast a "regular heal."
Actually, the only reason a summoner would be doing this isn't because they're taking damage too fast. Seriously. It's different for summoners due to their odd situation.
The reason a summoner would be relying on battle heal is that their heals are doing maybe 1/4 as much as a healer-class's (serious optimism here), and there's no reason to spend triple the time in a casting animation for a normal heal when you can just battle heal. Or, to put it another way, a BH-spamming summoner is still healing less per minute than a normal-heal-spamming healer, and is still spending the same amount of time casting as a normal-heal-spamming healer.
The only price of using the shorter-animation version is increased mana cost...so yes, infinite mana is a good reason, and no, it doesn't mean the party is doing something wrong.
My point is that relying on an ES to be a party healer isn't all that great of a thing to do. Quite frankly, if an ES is the main healer in a group, I'll find a different party.
As I said before a Healer is just as important as anyone else in the game and Just like a group wants a tank who has "hate" a group wants a healer "who can heal" and all that matters is that when you make your groups you remember what you want in one and what you don't want! You might think that a healer wont do you much good or a summoner can be a replacement and yes that might work for a while BUT remember when your fighting and your whole group dies or SOE's back to town I hope you keep in mine that situation might not of happened if you had an actual PROPER healer there to help ya out! (not always saying it will work that way) and as much as you want to try and say a healer is lazy NOT TRUE just make sure when you do add a healer to your group you give them your opinion on what you expect weather it's fighting or sitting, or you want them to stand! My point is everyone plays differently and it's up to you (who it bothers) to come straight out and state your opinion before the situation gets worse! :) I'm a 37 healer (said this before) and as much as you think healers have an easy job of healing [censored] WE DON'T my healer is a pain to level, can't pvp b/c she's weak as hell and I get bored so easily of her that it's been taking me forever to get to 40 hehe So if you really want to know what a healer is like true being in my shoes and then you might experience some of the problems we have (and everyother char has problems as well) :)
That's the whole point EllieBellie - there are places that are fine all the way up into levels where you don't need a proper healer, just like there are places where you definitely don't need a tank.
There are plenty of slow but fine ways to EXP without any of the popular class groups. Examples:
- Archer groups. Missing classes? Healer, tank. Buffers are present, and a recharger might be. Heals are not an issue though.
- "Battle" prophets. Kiranya is certainly our most prominent, but people have done it up to 75 - what makes you think the last three levels won't work the same?
- Summoner groups. No healer needed for obvious reasons - the whole group consists of joint DDs/Tanks/Healers. A tank isn't needed in this group, and support classes are only important for buffs: VR, Zerk, Dances. You could argue crit buffs, but truthfully, summons may crit hard with them - but they still crit once in a blue moon, so it doesn't really matter.
- Melee group. Missing class? Nuker/sleeper. The healer can take over the CC job - if it's a group with a particularly good puller, CC may be skipped over completely in favour of tanking adds out (seen Taraza's group do this, so eh).
It's not that bizarre to think out of the box a little and make do with what you have - why not go for an area where you don't need a healer or tank when you don't have one, and keep the areas where you need one for when you do have one?
I prefer relaxed hunting (as I don't like --exp), so the safety that any spot I can heal guarantees to me is greatly appreciated.
And to the person who suggested taking a healer for emergencies: The whole point when not taking a healer (if none are on) is to go to a levelling spot where the emergency that makes the healer necessary does not happen.
It's just like archer groups without a rooter would be ******ed to go to a spot where they can't kill mobs before they reach the group most of the time - that ruins the reason they don't need heals/a tank, namely their range.
Cater to your group setup rather than clinging to particular classes.
PS: Did people avoid catacombs in C3 just because mobs there AoE stun and paralyse? No. There wasn't even a class that could fix these dangerous situations effectively at the time, and now that there is it's still not popular. You don't always need a "perfect" group.
PPS: I don't generally actually have to non-stop spam the BHs (that would require quite a bit of resummoning) to keep a party that lets me heal going. If I didn't have reserves to kick into, I'd probably nudge the PP to get up and risk downtime at the end of buff cycles.
Actually there is a summoner who works as an complete awesome healer, yes just as good as all the otehrs in the end for PVE. Thats Phantom Summoner.
Ther Nighshade have an quite strong heal, 800+ or so at higher lv, and it's more or less instant cast, it's in fact sacrifice the same skill paladins have, except an PS can easely heal it summon to keep it HP up and the summon sacrifice it's hp to heal others.
played like this with a buffer + an PS at TOI10 as the only healer it works quite nice :)
It can tank too ... although maybe since it can heal, it's better to let someone who can, like, have some PDef, tank. :p
And yes, I did play healer in Imp Tomb with a PS - was quite fun. :D Although it was very difficult to keep up with everything: DD, cubics, my own heals for the summon and ocassional battle heal in a tight spot, the summon's heal, hexing and emergency hate & UD when the tank was dropping health faster than I was comfortable with. :p
Since I do have a Dark Wizard already currently on it's way to 40 I'm not sure now to make a phantom Summoner or a SpellHowler with all the positive things I've heard about PH's but how well are PH's at pvp? thats my question heh b/c unless your a battle Prophet I don't thnk a Prophet or Bishop have as good of a chance at pvping :)
exactly and normal Prophets have maybe 0.01% at pving heh I would make mine into a pvp battle Prophet but I don't know how to set that up and I don't know how hard that is?