Get a few high lvl Bishops and % heal him. Call in a GM to watch and when they force log the GM has them. Because the GMs then can just look at the logs and see if a) they logged in to force them out (which i heard does not work well now) or b) they used 3rd party software.
Once again - not without an EE. There's very few people who can survive getting focus fired by a raid party - and thanks to the porked karma system, it's no problem for the raid party to PK anything that comes close and then just turn around to wash the karma with the boss.
Yup, the most simple and most effective way to stop them would be not paying for their accounts anymore.
suggest you guys go to wall of argos and the hot springs to see how S grade jewlery babies are made ^^
not a flame, just pointing out as cal did that the raid farmers are all just a matter of supply and demand
problem is if they keep taking all those A and S bosses we will be the ones demanding and they will be the only supply
Anyone see the prices of stage 11 and 12 crystals lately?
Back to OP. Not a chance on Gustin.
Anyone approaching the RB is pk'd. You cant % heal, you cant pk the tank, if they dont allow you to get near it.
So amass a force that can take them?
You havent been reading the prior threads. By the time an alliance, yes I said alliance, not clan, gets organized enough to go where the farmer clans are, the RB is dead.
The only way to combat it is to do exactly what they do. Have the entire alliance sit next to the gk and have lowbie alts sit at the spawn points.
When the RB spawns, port to the spawn point.
Sounds like fun doesnt it. Sure is why I plunk down $15 US to play each month. :mad:
Actually that kind of greatly organised assault on an enemy team could be fun - except this enemy team doesn't care when it loses and should not be there in the first place.
I'd so love to do reconnaisance for this type of thing if it were against an actual alliance of players rather than against a group of professionals.
actually i seen a sunsetstrippers bishop pull it off on a toi 7 boss
got 4 of their toons killed and made the rest force log
after they logged back in i dont think they wanted to risk it anymore and they all soed
-except this enemy team doesn't care when it loses and should not be there in the first place.
they do care when they loose like 80% to antharas thats for sure..
and why cant they be there i mean they play the game one way im like 90% sure they dont use 3rd party programs when they are running there raids everyone is there all the time when you pm them maybe a few 2 boxed healers but they arent bots (1011101010) i seen one time there bishop went afk and they started a raidboss it was funny the tank like omgbbq and like was running for his life..
I think that's the biggest problem with the RB Farmers on Gustin. Most of the time they don't appear to be using 3rd party proggies. Account sharing and selling of adena are tough for NCSoft to prove, I think that's why they haven't been banned yet.
Unfortunately it's a tough problem for regular player to deal with. This has been my #1 complaint about the cheating from day one. It's extremely difficult for a regular player, even a hardcore one to compete and deal with a pro. The main reason is that the game is built to be such a huge timesink, where he who has the most time typically comes out ahead. Well, if you've got 24/7 you come out way way ahead.
What we've been doing on Gustin is engaging the farmers to slow them down, while other people take out the bosses before they can get there.
The problem is that we don't have a 24 hr presence that can really bring it to them, and also the times on the RB respawn make it so that it works great for one day, but the next day, they all respawn when we are at work or asleep.
They account share 24/7. They are not there to play, they are there to farm only - that's all the difference. If a major alliance is blocking up the RBs, it's something different from someone who doesn't even have an interest in it.
not bannable
the rmt is the only thing nc can ban them for, and since ive never once seen someone banned (even when they admit to ebaying) i think thats where the problem lies
Threads about raid boss farming are typically closed due to the forum policy (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=442966) on discussing User Agreement violations. However, if this thread remains constructive, refrains from accusations, and focuses on solutions, it can remain open.
As I mentioned recently, we have posted this information on this topic:
Any and all reports of players using third-party software for whatever purpose is investigated. In regards to players hunting raid boss monsters, all players are welcome to fight them on a first-come first-serve basis. Simply being first to kill the boss mobs once they spawn or repeatedly killing them is not a violation. However, using bot programs to fight the monster(s) or selling the dropped items for real-life currency are violations, and we do take strict disciplinary action against that type of behavior.
If you suspect a player or a group of players of the behavior described above, please send a report through the web site (http://support.lineage2.com). Posting accusations on the message board will result in the thread being removed, and reports on the board are not investigated.
i still dont understand why they havent banned the raidboss farmers on gustin yet. They are taking advantage of gameplay by controlling the times in which raidbosses spawn, have an alt at EVERY raid boss.
Its getting pretty sad really. No NORMAL players on gustin can do raids no longer. And if we do catch a raidboss or two it rarely happens.
And no, you jsut cant "kill" them. They dont care about exp and jsut come right back and kill you.
What I find intersting is how they single handedly control the economy, judging from various posts on other servers it seems price inflations on various items all rise and fall aroudn the same time.
For example,
When i first hit A grade DC helm was 30-40 mil
Maj and NM were about 60 to 110 mil depending on who and where
11 and 12 crystals were roughly also 20-40 mil
These prices are of course out rageous but still not impossible.
Suddenly , as soon as they realize they had the raid boss farming down pact, they raised their prices
A grade low helms 60- 110 mil
A grade high helms 90-150 mil
11 and 12 cry 40-70 mil
and these prices all seem to rise around the same time on all sorts of servers.
Hmmm lets see on Gustin yesterday we made them Re-Call from 2 mobs and we killed 1 other and that was a group that took 5 mins to form by pming the correct people. There are places you can wait for them like The Cursed Village they will be there every in game day at 12pm as the rob spawns get a good mage party to attack the tank they can heal away but the tank will go down. I saw that mob wipe out 2 of their parties the other day un aided and they dropped a lot of goodies sadly i could not ninja on my own :( once you have them in a location they are easy to track.
Stop being such carebears and fight them
PS on Gustin dont buy from Kubaby as he is their dorf that sells
Fighting them does nothing but give u PvP points. And what happens if when u call the GM and by the time they get bak to u (might be 1 hour), the raid boss is dead and they have moved. THE ONLY WAY TO HELP US IS BY NCSOFT / GMS COMING IN GAME AND WATCHING. They will pk you on site they dont care about equip since THEY OWN half of the ADENA on the server and CONTROL the market. GG ncsoft.
Hmmm lets see on Gustin yesterday we made them Re-Call from 2 mobs and we killed 1 other and that was a group that took 5 mins to form by pming the correct people. There are places you can wait for them like The Cursed Village they will be there every in game day at 12pm as the rob spawns get a good mage party to attack the tank they can heal away but the tank will go down. I saw that mob wipe out 2 of their parties the other day un aided and they dropped a lot of goodies sadly i could not ninja on my own :( once you have them in a location they are easy to track.
Stop being such carebears and fight them
PS on Gustin dont buy from Kubaby as he is their dorf that sells
I want you to eat these words as they grow on your server. We have fought them. They come back with ever cahnging tactics to the point where it is too much to lose. We cannot pk over 30 people with bishops mass rezzing them because they all stand on the same spot. Your "giustin" raid farmers are noobs. We have been there, making their bosses kill them, making them PR. We came here because when we do fight them, they farm us and the boss. I guess at 30 on the low end btw, more like 50. Tell me which of your clans can pk over 150 people and still be under 5 pk's.
But seriously, fight for your bosses as a server. If you want to beat them, you need to hunt all the bosses at a certain time of day and come back for the spawns. Just pick a time 7-9 and nobody exps, every alliance raids around the server. Eventually bosses they miss will get picked up in the cycle and you will have all the spawns >.> Hopefully.
But seriously, fight for your bosses as a server. If you want to beat them, you need to hunt all the bosses at a certain time of day and come back for the spawns. Just pick a time 7-9 and nobody exps, every alliance raids around the server. Eventually bosses they miss will get picked up in the cycle and you will have all the spawns >.> Hopefully.
Thats all fine and dandy, until you take server politics into account. You're basically suggesting that alliances and clans stop their wars and help each other out in this fight, and believe me, they dont care since some of them are profiting from all of this and some of them got all the equipment they will ever need already so they dont care about raiding.
And even if you got some to do this, there will always be situations when their enemies happen to be at the same place too and help the farmers out. Pure massacre.
Btw, Teon has declared war on them, only problem being that the single, most powerful alliance still goes hand in hand with the farmers to some extent.
If I sat and camped a set of quest mobs people need to kill to class change, and kept them dead, I probably would get banned. The farmers are doing that with raid bosses people need to kill to subclass, so whats the difference? *insert off the wall conspiracy theory here*
If I sat and camped a set of quest mobs people need to kill to class change, and kept them dead, I probably would get banned. The farmers are doing that with raid bosses people need to kill to subclass, so whats the difference? *insert off the wall conspiracy theory here*
You wouldn't get banned, but it is pretty ridiculus that these raid farmer clans can exist for so long, I can understand them rolling new chars, but on Bartz its been the same 2 prominate ones for months. Should take like 3 days tops to find them ....
Get a few high lvl Bishops and % heal him. Call in a GM to watch and when they force log the GM has them. Because the GMs then can just look at the logs and see if a) they logged in to force them out (which i heard does not work well now) or b) they used 3rd party software.
Your going to % heal the raid boss for 6 hours? Hope you have like 999999999999999999 Mdef and Pdef. By that time they could melee you to death after wasting their mana on you.
Hmmm lets see on Gustin yesterday we made them Re-Call from 2 mobs and we killed 1 other and that was a group that took 5 mins to form by pming the correct people. There are places you can wait for them like The Cursed Village they will be there every in game day at 12pm as the rob spawns get a good mage party to attack the tank they can heal away but the tank will go down. I saw that mob wipe out 2 of their parties the other day un aided and they dropped a lot of goodies sadly i could not ninja on my own :( once you have them in a location they are easy to track.
Stop being such carebears and fight them
PS on Gustin dont buy from Kubaby as he is their dorf that sells
yes thats exactly right! Ill waste the clan's and my own time, xp, and resources on pvping raid boss farmers who could care less about EXP, get rezed the second they die, and just come in swarms!
Once again - not without an EE. There's very few people who can survive getting focus fired by a raid party - and thanks to the porked karma system, it's no problem for the raid party to PK anything that comes close and then just turn around to wash the karma with the boss.
that goes both ways though, pk them and you can wash on the boss. IMO I think that may have been how it was designed, not a fault, as RB seem like they were designed to cause conflict. Funny, the RB farmers seem to be the only ones willing to fight for them, and for all the wrong reasons.
If I sat and camped a set of quest mobs people need to kill to class change, and kept them dead, I probably would get banned. The farmers are doing that with raid bosses people need to kill to subclass, so whats the difference? *insert off the wall conspiracy theory here*
You wouldn't get banned, but it is pretty ridiculus that these raid farmer clans can exist for so long, I can understand them rolling new chars, but on Bartz its been the same 2 prominate ones for months. Should take like 3 days tops to find them ....
ok, they kill bosses the minute they spawn. Thats legit by the game rules. Proving without a doubt they use third party programs to do what they do, or sell the in game items/adena for real life currency, that is harder.
If I sat and camped a set of quest mobs people need to kill to class change, and kept them dead, I probably would get banned. The farmers are doing that with raid bosses people need to kill to subclass, so whats the difference? *insert off the wall conspiracy theory here*
You wouldn't get banned, but it is pretty ridiculus that these raid farmer clans can exist for so long, I can understand them rolling new chars, but on Bartz its been the same 2 prominate ones for months. Should take like 3 days tops to find them ....
ok, they kill bosses the minute they spawn. Thats legit by the game rules. Proving without a doubt they use third party programs to do what they do, or sell the in game items/adena for real life currency, that is harder.
actually its not that legit...
Taking advantage of gameplay *camping every single raidboss with an alt, controlling when it spawns* bannable offense IMO!
If I sat and camped a set of quest mobs people need to kill to class change, and kept them dead, I probably would get banned. The farmers are doing that with raid bosses people need to kill to subclass, so whats the difference? *insert off the wall conspiracy theory here*
You wouldn't get banned, but it is pretty ridiculus that these raid farmer clans can exist for so long, I can understand them rolling new chars, but on Bartz its been the same 2 prominate ones for months. Should take like 3 days tops to find them ....
ok, they kill bosses the minute they spawn. Thats legit by the game rules. Proving without a doubt they use third party programs to do what they do, or sell the in game items/adena for real life currency, that is harder.
actually its not that legit...
Taking advantage of gameplay *camping every single raidboss with an alt, controlling when it spawns* bannable offense IMO!
Well, they HAVE said it is not a bannable offense. So Oh noes, your wrong :'(
Anything done within the game, except exploits (and watching RB with an alt is not an exploit) can be done by you or them. Why does everyone want to just get RB handed to them? They are supposed to drop the gear or the mats you need to gear yourself/clan/alliance up, and almost No one but farmers fights for them. They should be the 2nd most important thing to fight over, if not more important than castles.
Once again - not without an EE. There's very few people who can survive getting focus fired by a raid party - and thanks to the porked karma system, it's no problem for the raid party to PK anything that comes close and then just turn around to wash the karma with the boss.
that goes both ways though, pk them and you can wash on the boss. IMO I think that may have been how it was designed, not a fault, as RB seem like they were designed to cause conflict. Funny, the RB farmers seem to be the only ones willing to fight for them, and for all the wrong reasons.
This is just a guess but I would say only about 10% of each server has a clan/alliance strong enough to fight off raid farmers. Unfortunatley they dont because they are already strong enough and have enough adena/gear that raid bosses are irelivent or done just for fun. I have my suspisions on why the serve dominating alliances let this happen but im not going to say anything.
You can argue forever that the best way to deal with them is to fight them ingame. Its a good argument except for one problem. The difference between Game (fun for us) business (making profits) for them.
We have a good amount of people in our alliance (over 120)from very low toon to toons in thier 70's. Most of us have 2 or less accounts (I have 1). I would also say each player play's an average of 15-20 hours a week. We live all over the world and play at all different times. Just assuming there are 30 out of our alliance on at any given time. That 30 people could average from lvl 20-70. So it takes time to get a raid party together and usually have to put out a time an place a few days prior to get enoug people to raid.
Now take the raid farmers (business). We all know they have multiple accounts. We all know how they got to the lvls they are becuase the farmer clans show up out of nowhere with high lvl toons. thier sole purpos in this game is to kill raid bosses. Im sure these busineses use everything at thier disposal to estimate raid boss respawn rates. They also have enough accounts to let 1 account set logged in the middle of nowhere doing nothing 24/7 just to see when the raid boss spawns. Even if you kill this camera it will just lay there tell the server resets or it gets disconnected. Everyday at about 11:45 am game time. They mas in rune about 12:15pm they soe into town and disappear. Im sure this is the same routine all over the server whenever a raid boss spawns.
Lets see before C4 this problem wasn't quite as bad. the economy was overpriced but reasonable. Since C4 the raid boss problem has gotten way out of hand. Now most people in game will not be able to afford A grade or higher. In the last 2 weeks prices for A grade are 4x as high as they use too be. Can anyone justify 25-30mil for A grade boots? no you can't when they were 5-7mil 2 weeks ago. To me this means the professionals have cornered the market at every turn. Normal players cant raid, its next to impossible to use the manner system for any of the popular mats. All mats for S grade are bought up almost immediatley and are now selling for 3x the previous value.
I would love nothing better than to be able to take care of this issue ingame. But I don't see how I can as a regular player. I am just posting my opinion here. I'm not going to stop playing the game and I hope things change for the better. I have already come to the relization that I will still be in Demon/avadon when I hit 70 and probably even higher.
My biggest fear is that alot of legit players will quit this game. I know if I had started this game within the last 6 months I would have already quite (brig helm 1.5mil). But im am here for the long hall because I have seen better days in the past and hope to see them back in the future.
Once again - not without an EE. There's very few people who can survive getting focus fired by a raid party - and thanks to the porked karma system, it's no problem for the raid party to PK anything that comes close and then just turn around to wash the karma with the boss.
that goes both ways though, pk them and you can wash on the boss. IMO I think that may have been how it was designed, not a fault, as RB seem like they were designed to cause conflict. Funny, the RB farmers seem to be the only ones willing to fight for them, and for all the wrong reasons.
This is just a guess but I would say only about 10% of each server has a clan/alliance strong enough to fight off raid farmers. Unfortunatley they dont because they are already strong enough and have enough adena/gear that raid bosses are irelivent or done just for fun. I have my suspisions on why the serve dominating alliances let this happen but im not going to say anything.
You can argue forever that the best way to deal with them is to fight them ingame. Its a good argument except for one problem. The difference between Game (fun for us) business (making profits) for them.
We have a good amount of people in our alliance (over 120)from very low toon to toons in thier 70's. Most of us have 2 or less accounts (I have 1). I would also say each player play's an average of 15-20 hours a week. We live all over the world and play at all different times. Just assuming there are 30 out of our alliance on at any given time. That 30 people could average from lvl 20-70. So it takes time to get a raid party together and usually have to put out a time an place a few days prior to get enoug people to raid.
Now take the raid farmers (business). We all know they have multiple accounts. We all know how they got to the lvls they are becuase the farmer clans show up out of nowhere with high lvl toons. thier sole purpos in this game is to kill raid bosses. Im sure these busineses use everything at thier disposal to estimate raid boss respawn rates. They also have enough accounts to let 1 account set logged in the middle of nowhere doing nothing 24/7 just to see when the raid boss spawns. Even if you kill this camera it will just lay there tell the server resets or it gets disconnected. Everyday at about 11:45 am game time. They mas in rune about 12:15pm they soe into town and disappear. Im sure this is the same routine all over the server whenever a raid boss spawns.
Lets see before C4 this problem wasn't quite as bad. the economy was overpriced but reasonable. Since C4 the raid boss problem has gotten way out of hand. Now most people in game will not be able to afford A grade or higher. In the last 2 weeks prices for A grade are 4x as high as they use too be. Can anyone justify 25-30mil for A grade boots? no you can't when they were 5-7mil 2 weeks ago. To me this means the professionals have cornered the market at every turn. Normal players cant raid, its next to impossible to use the manner system for any of the popular mats. All mats for S grade are bought up almost immediatley and are now selling for 3x the previous value.
I would love nothing better than to be able to take care of this issue ingame. But I don't see how I can as a regular player. I am just posting my opinion here. I'm not going to stop playing the game and I hope things change for the better. I have already come to the relization that I will still be in Demon/avadon when I hit 70 and probably even higher.
My biggest fear is that alot of legit players will quit this game. I know if I had started this game within the last 6 months I would have already quite (brig helm 1.5mil). But im am here for the long hall because I have seen better days in the past and hope to see them back in the future.
Sorry for the long post just felt like typing.
not only does the manor suck now, but not enough people are doing it, that attributes ALOT to raised prices. That and more people have come back, thus more people are crafting, especially A and S grade. So basic mats are not meeting the demand has alot to do with price raises in market. Probably more than RB farmers imo. (on my server animal bones price jumped to almost 4x what it was. Just not enough people manoring.)
Second. If you can't have a RB group ready to go the instant one spawns then someone else would probably get that boss before you everytime, even if there were no RB farmers. IMO they were just designed to fight over. Not sit and take turns, not share. The fact is, the person who is planned better and more organized gets the RB.
What I find intersting is how they single handedly control the economy, judging from various posts on other servers it seems price inflations on various items all rise and fall aroudn the same time.
For example,
When i first hit A grade DC helm was 30-40 mil
Maj and NM were about 60 to 110 mil depending on who and where
11 and 12 crystals were roughly also 20-40 mil
These prices are of course out rageous but still not impossible.
Suddenly , as soon as they realize they had the raid boss farming down pact, they raised their prices
A grade low helms 60- 110 mil
A grade high helms 90-150 mil
11 and 12 cry 40-70 mil
and these prices all seem to rise around the same time on all sorts of servers.
Come to ERICA and see our prices!
DC helmet 55-65mil.
NM helmet 70+ up to 90mil
Mejestic 60+
SA crys lvl 11/12, any where from 60mil to 150, sometimes more.
More over, scroll EW/A was at about 3 mil in C3, come C4 at 10mil now they are going for 20-25mil.
not only does the manor suck now, but not enough people are doing it, that attributes ALOT to raised prices. That and more people have come back, thus more people are crafting, especially A and S grade. So basic mats are not meeting the demand has alot to do with price raises in market. Probably more than RB farmers imo. (on my server animal bones price jumped to almost 4x what it was. Just not enough people manoring.)
Second. If you can't have a RB group ready to go the instant one spawns then someone else would probably get that boss before you everytime, even if there were no RB farmers. IMO they were just designed to fight over. Not sit and take turns, not share. The fact is, the person who is planned better and more organized gets the RB.
I personaly don't believe that there is that many new or returning players for C4. If it was only a problem on 1 or 2 servers I could see it. But across all the servers having the same raid/farmer and economy issues. Also people stopped doing manor because it either stoppped being profitable or they could never turn in thier crops.
As far as being organized for raids. Your right and I agree with you all the way. Since C4 I have seen or been a part of organized raid parties. If it was just my server then I would say hey we need to fix this but its not. Its not just my alliance and or friends its every other alliance except for a select few (2 or 3) on each server who can't compete.
But like I said before I hold out hope that there will be some changes in the future. See I can be optomistic too LOL
how can ppl use manor when its almost impossible to put the crops in ? seed bots where u go, same b1shes selling the mats 3x overpriced..
and the worst things is : ppl still buy at this prices ...
when u sit down with a moderate price a dorf "gkghfssgf" or whatever come , buy u off and sit down with his prices ..
this seed mafia works same like the rb mafia.. look at the huge amounts of mats they have in shops...
the economy is ruined anyways...
when u try to craft something for urself ... u see that u can buy the whole wep when u sell the bone/varn u need ^^
What I find intersting is how they single handedly control the economy, judging from various posts on other servers it seems price inflations on various items all rise and fall aroudn the same time.
For example,
When i first hit A grade DC helm was 30-40 mil
Maj and NM were about 60 to 110 mil depending on who and where
11 and 12 crystals were roughly also 20-40 mil
These prices are of course out rageous but still not impossible.
Suddenly , as soon as they realize they had the raid boss farming down pact, they raised their prices
A grade low helms 60- 110 mil
A grade high helms 90-150 mil
11 and 12 cry 40-70 mil
and these prices all seem to rise around the same time on all sorts of servers.
Come to ERICA and see our prices!
DC helmet 55-65mil.
NM helmet 70+ up to 90mil
Mejestic 60+
SA crys lvl 11/12, any where from 60mil to 150, sometimes more.
More over, scroll EW/A was at about 3 mil in C3, come C4 at 10mil now they are going for 20-25mil.
well you are lucky, on kain, low A helm can be found, very rare, in shop for 175m min. Top A helm, luck if you see a shout and they are going for 225m+
Of course people buy it, if they can blow a billion adena on a clan hall easy, then its hardly a big deal for them if animal bone costs 2000 each when they need it.
DC helmet 55-65mil.
NM helmet 70+ up to 90mil
Mejestic 60+
SA crys lvl 11/12, any where from 60mil to 150, sometimes more.
More over, scroll EW/A was at about 3 mil in C3, come C4 at 10mil now they are going for 20-25mil.
****, Erica has cheap helmets :P We didnt have as cheap NM/Maj helms even in C3 lol
Yesterday, Maj helm 220mil in shop in Giran. DC helm 130mil. Didnt find NM helms and Tallum helm is the only one under 100mil atm, being at 88mil. Boots/Gloves are now more expensive than the main armor for heavy sets lol.
Get a few high lvl Bishops and % heal him. Call in a GM to watch and when they force log the GM has them. Because the GMs then can just look at the logs and see if a) they logged in to force them out (which i heard does not work well now) or b) they used 3rd party software.
The problem is that there were no GM online in Hindemith last few months, all they do is remove traders from ladders once in a while
I dunno how u guys gonna stop them but here is my account.
We have two and a half party wanting to do a Raid at Devasted Castle. Here come a group of farmers wanting to take the boss we have been waiting for.
Some of my guys tried to grief them but they wun hit back. But when they turn red, the farmer drop them and take their item! We lost over 200mil worth of items and jewels. They laugh at us and go off......
Not worth it. They dun even respond to provocation and they just keep taking Raid Mob. On top of that, all of them are not bots but live players as I talked to each and everyone of them.
Unless u are in a big alliances or the entire server gang up on them, I dun see any hope. Just live on and hopefully u earn enough for ur A grade and S grade.
Sorry hun, but why would you go red on someone if you have over 5 PKs and you know they can kill you? If you were going to go red, you should have waited until the beginning of the raid and dropped healers and tanks so as to make the nukers die and drop gear, and then wash clean.
Farmers exist for one reason and one reason only, which is to make money buy selling in game items for money.
Until people stop buying adena with RL cash, the farmers aren't going anywhere. We might be able to put them in check using in game means, we might be able to keep them out of certain areas, or even stop them from farming RB's for a while. It really doesn't matter though, because as long as the chumps are out there waving their RL cash the farmers are going to keep coming back.
I feel that the real problem is that the feeling in the community is that you can ebay all you want, because you aren't going to be caught and you don't have to worry about being banned for it. As a result, the general attitude is to just ebay it up.
This has got to change if we want to see a reduction in the number and aggressiveness of farmers.
NCSoft needs to run a database query, and get a list of everyone who has sold an item worth less than 1 mil for more than 49.99 mil. Once they have their list, give a 1 week ban to every single person on it, and a nice big warning that the next offense will be perma ban!!!!! After that, they need to make a post on here explaining that ebaying will no longer be tolerated and will result in disciplinary action.
I know, I know, some of those people will be innocent, and most of them will claim innocense. SO WHAT. It's only 1 week off.
Then, because people are freaking stupid and they are going to want to test the system, they need to do the exact same thing every 30 days.
I would say that after the 2nd or 3rd time, it will finally sink in and the attitude will change to: "Yo, G, if you ebay you will get banned.."
Then and only then wil we actually see a reduction in farmers.
Seriously though, if NC isn't gonna do anything about it and they aren't even gonna let us discuss it, then the only thing to do is take matters into our own hands and rid Aden of this menace our own selves...
how can ppl use manor when its almost impossible to put the crops in ? seed bots where u go, same b1shes selling the mats 3x overpriced..
and the worst things is : ppl still buy at this prices ...
when u sit down with a moderate price a dorf "gkghfssgf" or whatever come , buy u off and sit down with his prices ..
this seed mafia works same like the rb mafia.. look at the huge amounts of mats they have in shops...
the economy is ruined anyways...
when u try to craft something for urself ... u see that u can buy the whole wep when u sell the bone/varn u need ^^
may its a solution to increase manor system x10
annnd your not trying hard enough. I recently crafted a GS for under half of what it costs on the market. No mannoring involved ;)
Mats are simply more expensive because more people want them. Hell, since acumen was added to SOV, that 100% recipe has skyrocketed. And since it is drop only, no spoils...it just keeps going up. People want it, theres not enough for everyone, prices go up. It is simple economics. Not everything breaks down to "farmers control the market."
What always gets me in these threads is the amount of people that almost defend the farmers. You aren't one Bighands I'm just clicking your name to reply out of ease.
Why are so many defending their gameplay? "they are meant to be farmed" "they are using ingame methods" "they don't cheat" "you're just mad cause they are better than you" etc.
I think the design of the game is excellent, the idea of having to contest resources with other people, it promotes conflict and political agendas, that is a great deal of fun. The entire thing is marred greatly by farmers and the presence of cheats. If NC were able to reliably enforce punishments on all forms of cheating the game would improve. This game has a lot to offer and can easily expand it's playerbase if the cheating was crushed.
Oh and before the other idiots come in to say that "NC wants farmer money thats why they don't ban them" thing. It's in NC's interests to ban them because they come back all the time and that generates NC more money rather than less. It's also in their interests to ban them because it creates a better reputation for their game, which increases the playerbase and a steadily rising playerbase keeps the game fun for more people, for a longer period of time.
It can't be that hard to see a great deal of items and adena passing towards one or two characters which sell them all in town. The adena obtained from these sales must go somewhere. We aren't talking 100mil here we are talking billions of adena. It has to show up somewhere and it has to go somewhere too.
If they weren't selling it they wouldn't be continuously farming raid content day after day without noticable reward, just giving it all away to be sold. Sold for adena.. what happens to that adena? Well they sure as hell don't spend it on gear, cause they can have all the gear they want!?!
The entire thing is made far worse by player support of these and other farmers. Not to mention those that buy the adena and then turn around and spend it on something which the adena sellers are selling.
NC is capable of making the farmers lives very hard and helping quash the adena buying habits of many, coupled with a clamp down on cheat programs and all cheats things would be a lot more fun for everyone.
Seriously though, if NC isn't gonna do anything about it and they aren't even gonna let us discuss it, then the only thing to do is take matters into our own hands and rid Aden of this menace our own selves...
it is seriously simple guys. NCsoft can't do anything about it because they are not breaking the rules simply by farming RB. They have to be proven that they are using third party programs, or selling in game items for real world cash. And I am sure they leave a paper trail miles long, so as to jinx their job. *rollseyes*
raid farmers on our server would get slaughtered by the larger alliance. They don't let the farmers touch raid bosses. Most would easily go red on 30+ farmers instantly if they did not back down.
That is the best way to take care of farmers. Complete Obedience or Death. There is no 2nd option.
I think you're a bit optimistic there, nails, but I agree that raidboss farming is not as bad on Erica s on other servers.
And ya... it's totally about time for temp bans and permanent bans in repeated cases for the second half of the secondary market. I don't want to go into detail of finding, proving and excuting, but obviously just going for the providers, not the customers, is not enough at all.
Why don't they create an alternate path for subclass quest like they have for the third class change. One way is to kill the raid bosses and wait for the box. Other is to kill something else 700 times and a mob/box appears.
This way it won't matter if someone else is camping the raid bosses.
raid farmers on our server would get slaughtered by the larger alliance. They don't let the farmers touch raid bosses. Most would easily go red on 30+ farmers instantly if they did not back down.
kill one raid farmer clan so that the other one (who is in ur ally) can kill the raid bosses ;)
I think unfortunately what NCsoft needs to do is make the Raid Bosses needed 75 quest non drop. Make them all Quest Monsters. This will help alot of people on the servers.
Taking advantage of gameplay *camping every single raidboss with an alt, controlling when it spawns* bannable offense IMO!
Why can't you just continually PK their camper? You know, the one that's there to tell them when the boss spawns?
yes that makes a lot of sence also. Lets pk the lvl 1 alt camping the raid boss so he can... um... er... do the same thing its still doing? looking for the raidboss to spawn...
I realize alot of people don't understand the impact to the game of RB farmers specifically. Let me see if I can shed some light.
At the high end, A grade and S grade, the most efficient way to get items and enchant scrolls is by doing raid bosses. The ONLY way to get SA crystals for A grade weapons or higher is by doing Lilith/Anakim, or the high end dungeon bosses. In addition, several raid bosses are required to complete the quest to get your subclass.
I agree with Skyler 100%, NCSoft did this by design, and by itself, it's a great design move. It turns the RB's into a valuable resource to be fought over by the players, a very nice source of conflict.
This is assuming that the players fighting over the resource are doing so on somewhat equal footing.
If you inject RB farmers into the situation, you all of a sudden have people that are doing the RB's 24/7 as a business. They are nowhere near equal footing with the regular players, because of the playing 24/7 and the fact that it is a job. I mean, the tank or a bishop doesn't show up for a raid, the guy is fired, and a new guy hired to play that same toon. A real clan doesn't have the ability to just fire the guy playing the tank and hire a new one and be back in business 2 minutes later.
RB's being 95% controlled by the farmers leads to the farmers controlling the market for those high-end goods. While that stuff is not required to play the game, it is the stuff that everyone wants. I know, this is a whole seperate argument, but let's just leave it at the fact that people want better gear, and the farmers are heavily controlling the best source for that gear.
At this point, the vast majority of players who have been around for a while (they're pretty high level) are now being locked out of a significant portion of the end game content. RB's are a big deal, they're meant to be a big deal by design. Subclass quests are a big deal, also by design. Lvl 11 and 12 SA crystals are a big deal, Baium is a big deal. The competition for all these resources is by design supposed to create conflict (PvP) between clans and alliances is a HUGE deal.
When you start to look at it in that light, you realize the effect that the RB Farmers have on the end game. It's not very pretty. For NCSoft, it's even less pretty. That high end content is designed to keep high end players, some of whom have been paying multiple subscriptions for 2yrs+ interested, involved, and in the game!! (and paying...)
Case in point:
On Gustin in the past week, I know for certain of at least 20 clan wars that were canceled (wars between 3 or 4 large alliances). That's a mighty big hit to the high end content for alot of people. Why did we cancel the wars? Not because we like to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, especially considering the majority of those involved enjoy PvP. There's a very simple reason why. We all chatted and the determination was that we do enjoy PvPing it up, warring, and all that other good stuff, but that at this point the RB farmers have become such an issue that we feel the only way to effectively combat them is by stopping our fighting each other and all turning on them. For the record there were quite a few people in each alliance who were very unhappy about ending the wars, they enjoy the PvP.
That right there is a clear cut example of the impact the RB farmers have on the players at the high end of the game, and I'm not even talking about the financial impact.
Yea i think you should kill the camper. Because usualy they do not sit there 24/7 with the camper. This would make them have to keep bringing the camper back to that spot..lol
Farmers exist for one reason and one reason only, which is to make money buy selling in game items for money.
Until people stop buying adena with RL cash, the farmers aren't going anywhere. We might be able to put them in check using in game means, we might be able to keep them out of certain areas, or even stop them from farming RB's for a while. It really doesn't matter though, because as long as the chumps are out there waving their RL cash the farmers are going to keep coming back.
I feel that the real problem is that the feeling in the community is that you can ebay all you want, because you aren't going to be caught and you don't have to worry about being banned for it. As a result, the general attitude is to just ebay it up.
Here is what it comes down to:
People need items, they raid for them most of the time. If they could, they would not buy adena (in theory). Raid boss farmers come in, they take over. People still need items. What do they do? They buy adena from the raid boss farmers. So this is a tight end situtation. As long as raid boss farmers exist, people will buy adena. As long as adena demand exists, raid farmers will control the raid bosses. Solution? None that I can think of.
They have to be proven that they are using third party programs, or selling in game items for real world cash. And I am sure they leave a paper trail miles long, so as to jinx their job. *rollseyes*
It can't be that dfficult to find them out.
Sorry for the lame response. I had a whole shebang written up and using my better judgement decided not to post it. :(
Farmers exist for one reason and one reason only, which is to make money buy selling in game items for money.
Until people stop buying adena with RL cash, the farmers aren't going anywhere. We might be able to put them in check using in game means, we might be able to keep them out of certain areas, or even stop them from farming RB's for a while. It really doesn't matter though, because as long as the chumps are out there waving their RL cash the farmers are going to keep coming back.
I feel that the real problem is that the feeling in the community is that you can ebay all you want, because you aren't going to be caught and you don't have to worry about being banned for it. As a result, the general attitude is to just ebay it up.
Here is what it comes down to:
People need items, they raid for them most of the time. If they could, they would not buy adena (in theory). Raid boss farmers come in, they take over. People still need items. What do they do? They buy adena from the raid boss farmers. So this is a tight end situtation. As long as raid boss farmers exist, people will buy adena. As long as adena demand exists, raid farmers will control the raid bosses. Solution? None that I can think of.
Solution:
Ban the last 300 or so accounts from each server that sold a wooden arrow for 10 mil or more. Along with that, ban the accounts that made the purchase.
The message will promptly spread that NCSoft is serious about ebaying, and the majority of people will stop doing it.
Then the farmers will promptly look for a better market.
Farmers exist for one reason and one reason only, which is to make money buy selling in game items for money.
Until people stop buying adena with RL cash, the farmers aren't going anywhere. We might be able to put them in check using in game means, we might be able to keep them out of certain areas, or even stop them from farming RB's for a while. It really doesn't matter though, because as long as the chumps are out there waving their RL cash the farmers are going to keep coming back.
I feel that the real problem is that the feeling in the community is that you can ebay all you want, because you aren't going to be caught and you don't have to worry about being banned for it. As a result, the general attitude is to just ebay it up.
Here is what it comes down to:
People need items, they raid for them most of the time. If they could, they would not buy adena (in theory). Raid boss farmers come in, they take over. People still need items. What do they do? They buy adena from the raid boss farmers. So this is a tight end situtation. As long as raid boss farmers exist, people will buy adena. As long as adena demand exists, raid farmers will control the raid bosses. Solution? None that I can think of.
Solution:
Ban the last 300 or so accounts from each server that sold a wooden arrow for 10 mil or more. Along with that, ban the accounts that made the purchase.
The message will promptly spread that NCSoft is serious about ebaying, and the majority of people will stop doing it.
Then the farmers will promptly look for a better market.
so investigate every scammer out there. Could take awhile ;)
They have to be proven that they are using third party programs, or selling in game items for real world cash. And I am sure they leave a paper trail miles long, so as to jinx their job. *rollseyes*
It can't be that dfficult to find them out.
Sorry for the lame response. I had a whole shebang written up and using my better judgement decided not to post it. :(
You forget these people do this for a job. Thus it is their job not to get caught
Ban the last 300 or so accounts from each server that sold a wooden arrow for 10 mil or more. Along with that, ban the accounts that made the purchase.
The message will promptly spread that NCSoft is serious about ebaying, and the majority of people will stop doing it.
Then the farmers will promptly look for a better market.
What your not thinking of is that you cannot ban adena buyers for one reason and one reason only. When they do buy it, theres some sort of disclaimer that basically says "I pay real dollars for you to play the game and in return you give you the adena as a gift that you worked for". I seen this crap on ebay, and before the disclaimer was there, ebay banned all the sales of adena for a few weeks. Then the disclaimer comes, and there all back on there.
NCSOFT cannot ban people for exchanging items or giving them away in game. They can only ban 3 party programs, and people who violate the official rules. I dont think that falls under a violation of the official rules. At least not yet....
Edit: Meant to say:
"I pay real dollars for you to play the game and in return you give me the adena as a gift that you worked for"
Run a query on the each server's transaction database. Give me a list of the buyer and seller of every transaction where an item worth less than 1 mil was sold for more than 49.99 mil.
Give each of them a 7 day temp ban, follow it up with an email that this is their only warning.
At the end of the month, do it again. This time, after you get your initial list of accounts, run a query on your list of every transaction those accounts made within the next 10 minutes where they traded more than 49.99 mil adena for something worth less than 1mil adena. This will give you a second list of accounts.
Cross referrence both lists against you first round of bannings. Anyone who shows up gets a perma ban.
The two lists from the second round, give each of them 7 days off and the same warning email.
Yes, there are ways around it and loopholes and such. The fact is, they will not be able to catch every single ebayer. They will however stop the vast majority.
Yes, they will catch some innocent people. My recommendation is to not do things that could cause you to be confused with an ebayer, and there is a system in place that is shown to work for appealing your banning should you be wrongfully banned.
Ban the last 300 or so accounts from each server that sold a wooden arrow for 10 mil or more. Along with that, ban the accounts that made the purchase.
The message will promptly spread that NCSoft is serious about ebaying, and the majority of people will stop doing it.
Then the farmers will promptly look for a better market.
What your not thinking of is that you cannot ban adena buyers for one reason and one reason only. When they do buy it, theres some sort of disclaimer that basically says "I pay real dollars for you to play the game and in return you give you the adena as a gift that you worked for". I seen this crap on ebay, and before the disclaimer was there, ebay banned all the sales of adena for a few weeks. Then the disclaimer comes, and there all back on there.
NCSOFT cannot ban people for exchanging items or giving them away in game. They can only ban 3 party programs, and people who violate the official rules. I dont think that falls under a violation of the official rules. At least not yet....
You are wrong. Read the EULA, NCSoft can revoke your right to play their game for any reason at any time, and even for no reason at all. There is no guarantee that you will be able to play, you do not have a contract with them in any way.
Run a query on the each server's transaction database. Give me a list of the buyer and seller of every transaction where an item worth less than 1 mil was sold for more than 49.99 mil.
Give each of them a 7 day temp ban, follow it up with an email that this is their only warning.
At the end of the month, do it again. This time, after you get your initial list of accounts, run a query on your list of every transaction those accounts made within the next 10 minutes where they traded more than 49.99 mil adena for something worth less than 1mil adena. This will give you a second list of accounts.
Cross referrence both lists against you first round of bannings. Anyone who shows up gets a perma ban.
The two lists from the second round, give each of them 7 days off and the same warning email.
Yes, there are ways around it and loopholes and such. The fact is, they will not be able to catch every single ebayer. They will however stop the vast majority.
Yes, they will catch some innocent people. My recommendation is to not do things that could cause you to be confused with an ebayer, and there is a system in place that is shown to work for appealing your banning should you be wrongfully banned.
can't. Scamming is part of the game. Also what do you do about people who leave the game and want to pass gear/money to friends who are staying? Face it, there just isn't a real concrete way of catching people who are buying/selling Adena for RL money without causing a Huge uproar by banning scammers and people who may be giving a loan to friends.
Sorry for the lame response. I had a whole shebang written up and using my better judgement decided not to post it. :(
You forget these people do this for a job. Thus it is their job not to get caught
But it is also NC's job to find them.
From RustNC 9/16/2005:
For starters, I know the popular discussion around these parts are the botters and adena farmers. Let me begin by saying that we have always been working hard to combat this, but I'll admit that our methods in the past have not yielded the results many have been looking for. Yesterday we banned 2657 accounts for botting and using 3rd party software. This is result of some new and improved procedures we have currently underway. Obviously, I cannot go into detail as to these methods, but I will say that we feel it will make a significant impact on the presence of bots in the game going forward. This is not the first time we've banned this many, and it won't be the last, but it will probably be the last time I announce the specific number. As well, this procedure is just one of several ways we are looking to combat the presence of 3rd party software within the game. The North American Lineage II team is dedicated to making the game playable and enjoyable to our legitimate and hard-working players.
Yeah, so, I forgot what we were talkin' about and the point I was trying to make. Guess I'll leave it at that. :D
EDIT: That was from here (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=493019&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#493019).
I guess what I was trying to say, is that you can't just let them win because it's too tough to find them. NC apparently is doing their job, just not as fast as we would like. Gotta cut them some slack though, at least they're trying, I guess.
Run a query on the each server's transaction database. Give me a list of the buyer and seller of every transaction where an item worth less than 1 mil was sold for more than 49.99 mil.
Give each of them a 7 day temp ban, follow it up with an email that this is their only warning.
At the end of the month, do it again. This time, after you get your initial list of accounts, run a query on your list of every transaction those accounts made within the next 10 minutes where they traded more than 49.99 mil adena for something worth less than 1mil adena. This will give you a second list of accounts.
Cross referrence both lists against you first round of bannings. Anyone who shows up gets a perma ban.
The two lists from the second round, give each of them 7 days off and the same warning email.
Yes, there are ways around it and loopholes and such. The fact is, they will not be able to catch every single ebayer. They will however stop the vast majority.
Yes, they will catch some innocent people. My recommendation is to not do things that could cause you to be confused with an ebayer, and there is a system in place that is shown to work for appealing your banning should you be wrongfully banned.
can't. Scamming is part of the game. Also what do you do about people who leave the game and want to pass gear/money to friends who are staying? Face it, there just isn't a real concrete way of catching people who are buying/selling Adena for RL money without causing a Huge uproar by banning scammers and people who may be giving a loan to friends.
A simple appeal should clear the issue up for friends leaving and for scammers. Either of which would promptly be revealed by a real investigation after the fact.
Yes, a huge uproar is exactly what we need. You are almost with me, but I can tell you're a little hung up on the few innocent people who would get banned. Don't worry about them, the appeal process has proven itself to be quite effective.
I'm digressing a bit and putting the topic in danger of being locked, so let's see if we can't bring it back around to what players can do fight the RB Farmers.
IMO the most important thing is to understand their motivation and what can be done using in-game means to get rid of them.
Well, we all know that they are running a business, which means they have expenses. (employees, accounts, PC's, bandwidth, etc, etc)
We also know that they have income, which is derived directly from the adena they make in game.
Their motive is profit. Business basics state that:
Profit = Income - Expenses
OK, cool. Well if their motive is profit, and we can remove their motive, they will go away.
We can do 2 things to affect their profit. We can drive their expenses up and/or we can reduce thier income. If we can do both, we really start hurting their profits.
Expenses:
What things can we do to drive up their expenses?
It's pretty much beyond our control to make them pay more rent, power, bandwidth or any of those other physical expenses. However, we can make them pay for more accounts. We do this by mass petitioning, by sending mass complaints to support, and by using brute force on them. Brute force meaning, we kick their [censored] repeatedly forcing them to try and bring more toons to the fight. This has the added side effect of possibly causing them to have to hire more people to play those toons effectively.
Income:
This one is simple. Less dead bosses = less income.
There's a few ways to cause less dead bosses. First and foremost is we, the real players, kill the bosses before they do.
Second, we realize that their efficiency is tied to their income. ie. If they normally kill 3 bosses per hour, and we can reduce that too 2 bosses per hour, we have just eaten away at 1/3rd of their income. We do this by engaging and killing them, by forcing them to stand there at the boss being unable to attack under threat of griefing.
The best bet is a combination of both tactics... ie, my force engages them while your force runs around and kills the bosses before they can get there.
So.. there we have it. Nice n simple:
Profit = Income - expense
What other ideas are out there for driving expenses up and income down?
How about a player driven event? In my short time posting on the forum, I've noticed a few threads about the lack of events. Well, we could start our own. The first could be a week of all out war on raid farmers. Drop your clan wars, your racial differences, your griefing, and band together for one week for the good of all lineage 2-kind.
What other ideas are out there for driving expenses up and income down?
Halt the buying of full B/A/S-grade items and enchants from characters that dont belong to a clan/alliance and if they belong to a clan, make sure it is not a farmer clan. If they cant sell their loot, they dont get adena and thus they have nothing they can sell for RL bucks. Stop buying from all the NGHFHGSF named, naked lvl 1 dwarves in Giran. Stop buying from those few _known_ farmer shops. They either have to drop the prices to get someone to buy it or then they have to rely on a small customer base who doesnt care about the farmer issue.
What other ideas are out there for driving expenses up and income down?
Halt the buying of full B/A/S-grade items and enchants from characters that dont belong to a clan/alliance and if they belong to a clan, make sure it is not a farmer clan. If they cant sell their loot, they dont get adena and thus they have nothing they can sell for RL bucks. Stop buying from all the NGHFHGSF named, naked lvl 1 dwarves in Giran. Stop buying from those few _known_ farmer shops. They either have to drop the prices to get someone to buy it or then they have to rely on a small customer base who doesnt care about the farmer issue.
You may be on to something here.
Typically, people, including myself, use untagged sell shops. We do it for a number of reasons, including not wanting people to know our business and the concern that if an enemy knows it's me selling he might not buy the item.
It's an interesting idea to start tagging our sell shops so that people know which one's belong to real players and which don't. It prolly wouldn't stop most people from buying, but it might stop some, or at the very least if people have a choice between 2 shops they might go with the real player first.
Good idea. Hurt them in the marketplace, cut into their income.
Maline - we did exactly what you are saying couldn't happen, we realized that our drama and wars would be alot more fun for all if we got rid of the farmers first. So we layed them aside and went to work with the agreement that once we have made significant progress on the farmers, we'll reevaluate our war stance. It was not easy, but so far it has been fine. I have seen with my own eyes enemies of several months go red standing next to each other without a single incident of "oops.. misclick.." In all truth, I was surprised, I expected a few accidents. lol
I have only one problem with this. A few weeks ago I needed to enchant my CG weapon so I went shopping in Giran. I saw a lot of EWC and prices ranging from 350k to 600k. So I shout WTB EWC hoping to get it for 300k or less. This one guy pm's me and says he will sell for 500k. I said no thx, this one guy by the stairs is selling it for 350k. He replied with "thats a bot, dont buy from him". My problem:
1. I for one do not care if it was a bot, a bots mom, or a real player. 350k beats 500k anytime. And the guy had a normal name which didnt make it seem like a bot.
2. If you want people to buy from real stores, tagged or not, make the prices reasonable. Compete with the bots (easy to say, hard to do, but it can be done).
I know some people would buy from that guy with 500k because he is not a bot, or afk, but I would not. If the guys said 350k, sure I would much rather buy from him. If he said 300k, much better.
Many, many valid points in this thread IMHO. I know, i just know the war on botters would work... If only there were some good leaders who would be able to rally all the frees peoples of Middle-earth (hmm, sorry.. of Aden :)) behind them. I am confident that those leaders exist, as confident I am that it will eventually happen, when the grief caused by botters reaches critical mass... and it will, it allways does.
Now, I was sure I had typed sthing clever (remotely so :)) in a post a little time back... So I went digging around and found it. Here it is inserted further down. Tell me what you think. It would hurt legit free-lance dwarves, true. But it's really the only thing I can come up with, besides going to war with botters or magically instill sense into e-bayers.
---Start of insert---
Before I start, let me send regards to OrcZilla... Very nicely put my friend.
And secondly, I am fully aware that I'm probably gonna get flammed for this... but what the heck
It seems that the problem lies with the game design after all... I'm afraid that whatever else we say about will just be moot.
Making the game bot-gree can't actually be that hard... Maybe we should, just for a moment, think outside the box here.
Now, let me take a swing at that...
Firstly, what is the main reason that makes people buy in-game assets for RL money? The fact that this game is hard... Buing what it will probably take you 3 months to get in just 10 minutes for RL money is just... well.. easier. Now, the fact that this game is hard (in the wrong places some will say... and they may just be right, I'm not going to come into that) cannot be changed. It's part of the reason people play it in the first time. Therefore, some people think that "why should I bust my a*s trying to gather together 1000 types of different stuff so that I can TRY to craft something, when I can just get the Adena I need for RL cash and just buy the equipment I need from someone in the next 20 minutes?".
Really, taken that into acount, the answer just jumps out of the bushes and bites us in the a*s. It seems so simple that someone would have been able to figure it out by now, right?
Now, bear with me a little here, OK?
Now, let's say I need a brand new B Grade armor.. I just turned 52 and I absolutely gotta have a Heavy Doom Set... I am part of an active clan, we can gather around and do it, no sweat... but gathering the mats and then crafting it would be, well, slow... Ohh, I know! Why don't I just Alt-Tab, open up my browser, get online and just get 10 million Adena in 20 minutes so that I can buy my set from a random shop somewhere in the world of Aden? Seems fairly simple, right?
Now, imagine (for a minute, just a minute) that I can't! I cannot do what I just described! Why? Certainly not because there are suddenly no more botters or lazy lame n00b players out there! I cannot, for the life of me do that because... crafted-only items cannot be traded for anything! Crafted-only items cannot be traded at all! They cannot be put for sale in ordinary shops! They can only be traded between characters that are in the same clan at the time! WOW! I cannot buy it anymore! OMG! Now, the only way I'm ever gonna get that Heavy Doom Set is either by gathering all the mats and getting a dwarf clanmate to craft it, or... I can get a COMPLETE STRANGER to join my clan so that I can buy it from him! What am I ever going to do? Everyone else is on their way to gathering raw mats... I better get on with it myself!
But it doesn't stop there, no... What if I wanted to, lets say, buy 10 million Adena off some website just to finally be able to afford to lvl that SWS I allways dreamed of playing? I could just go out, order the Adena, and have a bot agent deliver the money in-game in just under 20 minutes, right? Well... wrong again! Why? Because I just realised that... I cannot make transfers larger then 3 million Adena between a character and any other character per week, unless that character (and all other ones of-course) are in the in the same clan at the time! OMG! Now, I either have to wait a minumum of 3-4 weeks to get my money, or... I can get a COMPLETE STRANGER to join my clan so that I can get it! Bummer, isn't it?
Well, the above are just stuff that really came on my mind after my second 6-pack for the night... So, feel free to launch them right back at me.. No offence taken :)
these guys have so many accounts they would just join your clan and leave it, so they have to wait 5 days? whats it matter if you have 6 alts on the account and you have 20 account it may only slow your selling down alittle at best not stop it...
NC could atleast set a max price for items such as majestic/NM helms by NPC shops, atleast that would stop the 100s mil prices they are now and cut down the bot profit
It will not stop them, it's true... But I think it will slow them down considerably. And to go further into that, what if you could not leave a clan earlier then, lets say 3, 4 or even 5 days after you joined? More slowing down, not to mention the fact that no CL in their right minds would find living with the possibility of someone named "giigijjggii" running around with their tags very conforting...
You guys are heading off in the wrong direction here. We're talking about stopping RB farmers.
When it comes to ebayers, that's simple and I already described fully how to do it.
The post 2 above mine makes a couple of assumptions. First he is going by today's attitude of "I just want my armor, crack open IE and get my money in 20 min's no big deal."
After the first 2 rounds of bannings, the guy who's thinking of that B grade armor might think, "Well last month I could have just went to ebay, put in my order and 20 mins later got what I want, but now, if I do that I'll only get to wear my armor for a couple weeks before the ban hammer lands squarely upon me.. guess I better get to working that manor system."
Then we see another wrong assumption. The reason the real player is selling his enchants for 500k is because he wants an weapon or helm and the only one's he can find for sale are being sold for triple what they should be by some farmer who needs that adena to sell to the next chump for RL cash.
Take away the farmers and bots, and the real players will only be able to sell for what the market can handle. On top of that, if you take away the bots and farmers, NCSoft will raise the drop rates so that the economy maintains the proper level of growth. It might actually be possible to farm your own **** helmet if they weren't adjusting the drop rate to account for the 8 parties that are in the area farming 24/7.
And to bring it back full circle, the guy selling the scroll for 500k is doing so because he's trying to buy an over priced item that his clan could have gotten on their own for free if the **** RB would have been up any of the past 8 times they checked it. Suppose that boss would have been up, and the guy with the scroll would have gotten his helmet on the cheap, do you suppose he would have been a little more willing to come down on his price? OF COURSE HE WOULD!!!! Instead, he's scraping for every **** penny to try and get his A grade, which right now is going for freaking 200 mil for just the armor.
You guys are heading off in the wrong direction here. We're talking about stopping RB farmers.
When it comes to ebayers, that's simple and I already described fully how to do it.
The post 2 above mine makes a couple of assumptions. First he is going by today's attitude of "I just want my armor, crack open IE and get my money in 20 min's no big deal."
After the first 2 rounds of bannings, the guy who's thinking of that B grade armor might think, "Well last month I could have just went to ebay, put in my order and 20 mins later got what I want, but now, if I do that I'll only get to wear my armor for a couple weeks before the ban hammer lands squarely upon me.. guess I better get to working that manor system."
Then we see another wrong assumption. The reason the real player is selling his enchants for 500k is because he wants an weapon or helm and the only one's he can find for sale are being sold for triple what they should be by some farmer who needs that adena to sell to the next chump for RL cash.
Take away the farmers and bots, and the real players will only be able to sell for what the market can handle. On top of that, if you take away the bots and farmers, NCSoft will raise the drop rates so that the economy maintains the proper level of growth. It might actually be possible to farm your own **** helmet if they weren't adjusting the drop rate to account for the 8 parties that are in the area farming 24/7.
And to bring it back full circle, the guy selling the scroll for 500k is doing so because he's trying to buy an over priced item that his clan could have gotten on their own for free if the **** RB would have been up any of the past 8 times they checked it. Suppose that boss would have been up, and the guy with the scroll would have gotten his helmet on the cheap, do you suppose he would have been a little more willing to come down on his price? OF COURSE HE WOULD!!!! Instead, he's scraping for every **** penny to try and get his A grade, which right now is going for freaking 200 mil for just the armor.
True, all true. That is exactly why I suggested (see 3 posts up) - as it is fairly obvious that people will NOT get banned for e-baying, at least not until now, I really hope it changes as it will solve the problem in a couple of weeks- that just limit the amount of money transfers between 2 players if NOT in the same clan and make all crafted-only items NOT tradeable unless the seller AND the buyer are in the same clan. Furthermore, put a minimum time that a player must stay in a clan before beeing permited to leave, say 4-5 days.
Couldn't these work?
And it certainly goes without saying that if NCSoft could find a way to punish e-bayers, none of the above would be needed... But it seems that, at least for now, they haven't...
Limiting full items for clan only trade is a severe blow to soloers and others who dont belong to a clan. In a sense you would be forcing everyone to join a clan in order to be able to have equipment, and that imo aint nice. People have the right to be lone wolves. You'd also hit the legit warsmiths hard with that change as they then couldnt produce full items for sale anymore.
What we need is tracking of trade transactions and tracking of the RB farmers. And some heavy bans.
And to bring it back full circle, the guy selling the scroll for 500k is doing so because he's trying to buy an over priced item that his clan could have gotten on their own for free if the **** RB would have been up any of the past 8 times they checked it. Suppose that boss would have been up, and the guy with the scroll would have gotten his helmet on the cheap, do you suppose he would have been a little more willing to come down on his price? OF COURSE HE WOULD!!!! Instead, he's scraping for every **** penny to try and get his A grade, which right now is going for freaking 200 mil for just the armor.
I quoted this portion to make my point, its pointed out more than once in your post that "the market has jacked up pricing because of bot sellers" I dont totally agree. Are prices higher than what you want to see, yes, but not totally unrealistic if you look how those things come into game. One example, would be a bot group farming and getting a 1/46000 chance drop, it happens, but not enough to sway the market. The other option for most higher end gear is crafting. The prices for most are justified imho. Take a DLE sword, which I've crafted one and blown one up. From personal experience I can say there is should be something in a price of an item based on the item being blown up during craft. And that price should be based over what a crystal count price should be, which A grade crystals are actually based on Mammon prices.
A Grade armors, as you pointed out, least on Seigh, are like 100-150 for total set, but lets be honest for a sec, most of thats the helmet, and have you personally tried to craft one of those? Im betting not. Questing for materials, recipe, and then the regualr materials, all for a slim chance of being successful. Even I dont have the stomach for that.
One thing I never really see people complain about are OE weapons. Is that because "normal" non botter gamers are bout only ones crazy enough to try this? or want it? Are they nice? yes Are they required in game? no
If anything, one can learn from bots, c grade peeps hunting with no soulshot in Dark Omens? ToI? Wall Of Argos? Obviously our need for "TOP GEAR" might get the best of us all.
One could take this post as a "bot lover" or "ebayer", I prefer devils advocate. I hate the bots and /gm all the time. I hate when I log in and have to tele to numerous "honey holes" to find one I can grind that is bot free. So I am on your side. But the bots are not what I blame for the market, if anything, since OB that some of us started in, 75% of all gear in game and money in game wouldnt be where it is, if it werent for the bots
It's fine, you just have to take 2 things into account regarding crafting A grade:
1. Helmets: ever tried to get the recipe? Only way to do that is by one very very anooying quest "Legacy of insolence"- which is, of course, designed more for automated or mindless players rather than real players. Not to mention reward - you get recipe, or more likely not ...
2. 60% craft: clannie blew 30mil attempting to craft DC helm 3 times. Note that almost all basic materials he obtained via manor and his BH alt - it was 30m atop of that. All attempts failed. He rerolled (guess what class :P ) and bought Talum helm for 27m just before they went up to astronomical heights. Now he is happy.
It would be much much easier to pick some raid boss, gather parties, and bring boss down to get his helm. Which is impossible now. Prices went down when real players were raiding in C3 ... slowly, but steadily.
Limiting full items for clan only trade is a severe blow to soloers and others who dont belong to a clan. In a sense you would be forcing everyone to join a clan in order to be able to have equipment, and that imo aint nice. People have the right to be lone wolves. You'd also hit the legit warsmiths hard with that change as they then couldnt produce full items for sale anymore.
You are right. As I also mentioned in my post, it will be a blow to freelancers, yes. But it may be the only way, taking into acount that NCSoft (seems) to claim that the tracking of trade transactions and the tracking of the RB farmers is impossible.
What we need is tracking of trade transactions and tracking of the RB farmers. And some heavy bans.
Exactly. 110& right. But... they're not doing it. That is the sole reason I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting.
NCSoft's whole deal is that they don't want to interfere with gameplay as much as possible. But there comes a time where they have to draw the line somewhere with this issue, which i have yet to see them give an official reply what they are going to do, if anything.
NCSoft's whole deal is that they don't want to interfere with gameplay as much as possible. But there comes a time where they have to draw the line somewhere with this issue, which i have yet to see them give an official reply what they are going to do, if anything.
I wouldn't hold my breath if i were you... Or me... Or anybody... :eek:
It's fine, you just have to take 2 things into account regarding crafting A grade:
1. Helmets: ever tried to get the recipe? Only way to do that is by one very very anooying quest "Legacy of insolence"- which is, of course, designed more for automated or mindless players rather than real players. Not to mention reward - you get recipe, or more likely not ...
2. 60% craft: clannie blew 30mil attempting to craft DC helm 3 times. Note that almost all basic materials he obtained via manor and his BH alt - it was 30m atop of that. All attempts failed. He rerolled (guess what class :P ) and bought Talum helm for 27m just before they went up to astronomical heights. Now he is happy.
It would be much much easier to pick some raid boss, gather parties, and bring boss down to get his helm. Which is impossible now. Prices went down when real players were raiding in C3 ... slowly, but steadily.
Color me stupid, but arent high end items suppose to be rare, or hard to get, if not we'd be playing WoW and been done with game like 1 1/2's years ago(and yes i still do those quests for items to sell)
But when S-grade is easier to get than A-grade, you must admit that something is wrong, no? Why would higher grade gear be more easily accessible?
ToI quest is utter crap, you have a very small chance of getting a recipe out of it so the best way to obtain those helmets is by raiding, which now is nigh impossible thanks to our friends from China farming those bosses 24/7.
Ban the boss farmers NC and you make 95% of your playerbase _HAPPY_. Cant you do something even once that the players would agree upon and want?
(that 5% is the farmers and the people benefitting from their iron grip on our economy)
But when S-grade is easier to get than A-grade, you must admit that something is wrong, no? Why would higher grade gear be more easily accessible?
ToI quest is utter crap, you have a very small chance of getting a recipe out of it so the best way to obtain those helmets is by raiding, which now is nigh impossible thanks to our friends from China farming those bosses 24/7.
Ban the boss farmers NC and you make 95% of your playerbase _HAPPY_. Cant you do something even once that the players would agree upon and want?
(that 5% is the farmers and the people benefitting from their iron grip on our economy)
I would very, very much like to believe it's only 5%... but I'm afraid it could in reality be higher... I hope you're right though :)
to what point should a customer upkeep the integrity of service they're required to pay for?
i admire you guys, i really do. the thing is, gaming companies doesn't have the resource required to fight this multi-billion dollar business. no matter how hard the customers want it gone, it's just a lost battle if the CEO decided it's not worth the cost to fight the black market.
to what point should a customer upkeep the integrity of service they're required to pay for?
i admire you guys, i really do. the thing is, gaming companies doesn't have the resource required to fight this multi-billion dollar business. no matter how hard the customers want it gone, it's just a lost battle if the CEO decided it's not worth the cost to fight the black market.
Well, I really don't think it's only that.. Take for example the Private Servers... have you seen anw WoW Private Servers staying up? Nope.. they go down faster then you can say "WoW"... Why? Cause Blizzard will not tolerate them. Plain and simple. Now, how many L2 Private Servers do you know of that are up for years? Too many to be counted... So it's not only about botters, is it?
How about this :
Increase raid bosses m def and decrease p def . Give very strong ranged atacks to raid boss . Introduce a script that would check kind of damage that boss is receiving ( ranged or melee ) and switches raid boss to either "ranged" either "melee" mode . If the boss is receiving more damage at melee range it would melee also and use his ranged atacks only from time to time . But if boss is receiving main damage from ranged atacks it would result in endless ranged atacks from raid boss . Because of increased m def it would be impossible to kill him in 1 and a half minute . Now farmers dont even need rechargers they simply kill RB before running out of mana . If this would be introduced farmers would need more people for raids and force them to hire more people or use third party programs to run rechargers .
This would make raids more fun , indirectly nerf nukers and screw raid boss farmers .
How about this :
Increase raid bosses m def and decrease p def . Give very strong ranged atacks to raid boss . Introduce a script that would check kind of damage that boss is receiving ( ranged or melee ) and switches raid boss to either "ranged" either "melee" mode . If the boss is receiving more damage at melee range it would melee also and use his ranged atacks only from time to time . But if boss is receiving main damage from ranged atacks it would result in endless ranged atacks from raid boss . Because of increased m def it would be impossible to kill him in 1 and a half minute . Now farmers dont even need rechargers they simply kill RB before running out of mana . If this would be introduced farmers would need more people for raids and force them to hire more people or use third party programs to run rechargers .
This would make raids more fun , indirectly nerf nukers and screw raid boss farmers .
Well, I really don't think it's only that.. Take for example the Private Servers... have you seen anw WoW Private Servers staying up? Nope.. they go down faster then you can say "WoW"... Why? Cause Blizzard will not tolerate them. Plain and simple. Now, how many L2 Private Servers do you know of that are up for years? Too many to be counted... So it's not only about botters, is it?
not entirely true. i haven't heard about blizz leaking their server sided code to the public, the only version private servers held are beta test version, which is crap; while NC korea leaks the entire c1 code out, which helps the private server prosper. on top of that, L2 have a large portion of "players" to help NC keep the server pop down. this happens in prelude/c1 for newbie area (try soda back then? ac? orc barrack? forgotten temple?), and it's happening now (a/s grade, necro/cata, RB). sure, we can fight them, but the game rule put us in a great disadvantage while it gives no harm to the farmers. not only that, the rule gives farmers a great advantage (oops you just drop your dc helm on your first red death, sux to be you).
private servers are surely a problem, but that problem is just a mere reflection of how companies maintain their service. many ppl i met has lots of fun playing wow despite of all the bots/farmers, since it's possible to avoid them, why would you cheap out on $15 USD to play on a buggy, lag-invested server?
Well, I really don't think it's only that.. Take for example the Private Servers... have you seen anw WoW Private Servers staying up? Nope.. they go down faster then you can say "WoW"... Why? Cause Blizzard will not tolerate them. Plain and simple. Now, how many L2 Private Servers do you know of that are up for years? Too many to be counted... So it's not only about botters, is it?
not entirely true. i haven't heard about blizz leaking their server sided code to the public, the only version private servers held are beta test version, which is crap; while NC korea leaks the entire c1 code out, which helps the private server prosper. on top of that, L2 have a large portion of "players" to help NC keep the server pop down. this happens in prelude/c1 for newbie area (try soda back then? ac? orc barrack? forgotten temple?), and it's happening now (a/s grade, necro/cata, RB). sure, we can fight them, but the game rule put us in a great disadvantage while it gives no harm to the farmers. not only that, the rule gives farmers a great advantage (oops you just drop your dc helm on your first red death, sux to be you).
private servers are surely a problem, but that problem is just a mere reflection of how companies maintain their service. many ppl i met has lots of fun playing wow despite of all the bots/farmers, since it's possible to avoid them, why would you cheap out on $15 USD to play on a buggy, lag-invested server?
You're probably right, it has to do mostly with the code leackage. But I was trying to point out the difference in the amount of planning, executing and plain old caring. And, by the way, I've played WoW for one or two moons, and I cannot for the life of me get why would anybody buy in-game currency there. Money grows on trees in WoW for christ sake!
Edit: What do you mean by: "on top of that, L2 have a large portion of "players" to help NC keep the server pop down. this happens in prelude/c1 for newbie area (try soda back then? ac? orc barrack? forgotten temple?), and it's happening now (a/s grade, necro/cata, RB)". You lost me there :confused:
What do you mean by: "on top of that, L2 have a large portion of "players" to help NC keep the server pop down. this happens in prelude/c1 for newbie area (try soda back then? ac? orc barrack? forgotten temple?), and it's happening now (a/s grade, necro/cata, RB)". You lost me there :confused:
i was implying farmers but i don't wanna get this lock. when player has no access to game features, some of them fight back in game, some fight them by cancelling account. simple as that.
What do you mean by: "on top of that, L2 have a large portion of "players" to help NC keep the server pop down. this happens in prelude/c1 for newbie area (try soda back then? ac? orc barrack? forgotten temple?), and it's happening now (a/s grade, necro/cata, RB)". You lost me there :confused:
i was implying farmers but i don't wanna get this lock. when player has no access to game features, some of them fight back in game, some fight them by cancelling account. simple as that.
Ohh, OK. And I don't think this will get locked? Why would it?
Every body keeps arguing about this subject. Some say kill the raid farmers and they will go away. Some say NCSOFT needs to ban them. But that is only a temperary fix.
Stopping ebayers is impossible with the current rules. Stopping raid farmers is impossible with the current game dynamics.
Anyone who plays the ingame market keeps a tab on adena prices. Its the best way to gage the price fluxuation in game. In C3 adena prices were twice as much as they are now. In game now item prices have gone up significantly.
I say the only way to remove farmers is to cap the price on everything in game. If they cant sell a wep for 4 times its true value (true value=approximatley 2.5xNPC purchase price). They can't make a profit. With out profits they go away.
I know alot of people wont like this idea. Will be no need to have 500mil or more adena just to get A grade. Every dwarph will still have its job and purpose. You just wont have to make as much adena. Or even spend as much to craft items. of course some game tweeking will need to be done. Like adjusting the drop rate and quest reward%. Scaveys will be a valuable part of the game again. Manor system will be worth doing again. Will be harder to make 100mil but when you do you will be able to get your A grade. It wont cost a billion adena to get a clan hall. You will be able to walk around in Giran. Some quests will be worth doing again.
Just think about it for a minute. If prices for everything were caped at NPC value. The hole RL money making part of the game would be gone. More people would play the game since it wouldn' be next to impossible for a new player to upgrade.
I know alot of people have gotten use to the way it is now. I know it has gotten worse since C4 went live. Does anyone see it getting any better without a major change in the game.
Every body keeps arguing about this subject. Some say kill the raid farmers and they will go away. Some say NCSOFT needs to ban them. But that is only a temperary fix.
Stopping ebayers is impossible with the current rules. Stopping raid farmers is impossible with the current game dynamics.
Anyone who plays the ingame market keeps a tab on adena prices. Its the best way to gage the price fluxuation in game. In C3 adena prices were twice as much as they are now. In game now item prices have gone up significantly.
I say the only way to remove farmers is to cap the price on everything in game. If they cant sell a wep for 4 times its true value (true value=approximatley 2.5xNPC purchase price). They can't make a profit. With out profits they go away.
I know alot of people wont like this idea. Will be no need to have 500mil or more adena just to get A grade. Every dwarph will still have its job and purpose. You just wont have to make as much adena. Or even spend as much to craft items. of course some game tweeking will need to be done. Like adjusting the drop rate and quest reward%. Scaveys will be a valuable part of the game again. Manor system will be worth doing again. Will be harder to make 100mil but when you do you will be able to get your A grade. It wont cost a billion adena to get a clan hall. You will be able to walk around in Giran. Some quests will be worth doing again.
Just think about it for a minute. If prices for everything were caped at NPC value. The hole RL money making part of the game would be gone. More people would play the game since it wouldn' be next to impossible for a new player to upgrade.
I know alot of people have gotten use to the way it is now. I know it has gotten worse since C4 went live. Does anyone see it getting any better without a major change in the game.
Just my thoughts on a way to fix the problem.
You may be right, it could work... If it won't get rid of the farmers, it sure will make their life harder. And it will certainly move RL money prices for Adena off the roof... Which will mean less people bying :)
i didnt read whole topic but my two cents:
make the RBs variable, or simply limit the number of people that can raid them, because then, with a various weaknesses and/or resists farmers hopefuly wont be able to use 3rd party software to help them with killing
make NPC that will show the time until RBs respawn, so normal players can be there in advance nad fight the farmers
PS: i know, crappy english :eek:
There is no problem with raid farmers, there is a problem with war system in the game. Current war system cannot be applied against raid farmers. Solution can be found.
Lets say every kill of raid boss increasing your raid boss counter. If your raid boss counter go after 10, you start flagging on raid boss for sometime. The more raidboss counters you have the longer your flaging time is. Every day your raidboss counter decreases by 1-3 (like recs counter). When introduced, I think everybody will know what to do. :cool:
/edit pking farmers raid boss farmers does NOTHING! PK all e-bayers, bought accoutns, botters, powerlvld toons... unite against the cheaters not the suppliers. Destroy the demand and the farmers will go bye-bye
Wow im suprised. Knowone flammed my idea jet only one response. Is that because it more plausable then stopping ebayers or killing raid farmers.
Anyway C5 info is starting to come out and there looks like there is alot of good things coming out for active players and clans to help combat this scurge. Since RB farmers wont be going through the work for this stuff we might be gaining an advantage.
Think about how much EVERYTHING would be if there were no farmers. Yeah whatever I dont like farmers either, but you would be [removed] if there wernt any.
Everything would be more expensive for sure. Or, lets say even some people hardcore farmed recipes etc, they could charge whatever they wanted, similar to farmers, and you would have to pay for it.
Really what needs to be changed is the overall game itself. Drops quests etc.
Ive got about 2 billion adena in gear atm though, so I personally dont care much ... hoho
Think about how much EVERYTHING would be if there were no farmers. Yeah whatever I dont like farmers either, but you would be ****ed if there wernt any.
Everything would be more expensive for sure. Or, lets say even some people hardcore farmed recipes etc, they could charge whatever they wanted, similar to farmers, and you would have to pay for it.
Really what needs to be changed is the overall game itself. Drops quests etc.
Ive got about 2 billion adena in gear atm though, so I personally dont care much ... hoho
If there were no farmers and gear was more difficult to get, that would be a good thing. Because then only hardcore, organized clans would (deservedly) have the top equipment. Right now there are a lot of people with access to equipment they don't deserve, and this makes it very difficult for players to determine which clans are strong and effective, and which clans just ebay their stuff from farmers.
I want to thank everyone who has been participating in this thread for keeping it constructive and on-topic. The suggestions and feedback in this thread have been passed along to the team.
slight problem with this. when you "call in a GM to watch", none will appear.
Get a few high lvl Bishops and % heal him. Call in a GM to watch and when they force log the GM has them. Because the GMs then can just look at the logs and see if a) they logged in to force them out (which i heard does not work well now) or b) they used 3rd party software.
Think about how much EVERYTHING would be if there were no farmers. Yeah whatever I dont like farmers either, but you would be [removed] if there wernt any.
Everything would be more expensive for sure. Or, lets say even some people hardcore farmed recipes etc, they could charge whatever they wanted, similar to farmers, and you would have to pay for it.
Really what needs to be changed is the overall game itself. Drops quests etc.
Ive got about 2 billion adena in gear atm though, so I personally dont care much ... hoho
Please don't bypass the filter. - M
Dumb? You, someone that believes, really believes that getting rid of farmers will make items more expensive, is calling me dumb? Are we playing the same game? Are you playing any game at all?
Getting rid of farmers will make items harder to get (as it should be), not more expensive. If you can't see the difference between these two, go see a doctor. Or better yet, leave this game and start playing Tetris Online.
I want to thank everyone who has been participating in this thread for keeping it constructive and on-topic. The suggestions and feedback in this thread have been passed along to the team.
I don't usualy like you :p, but there are times you really make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :D Pass it on, you board devil you! ;)
Think about how much EVERYTHING would be if there were no farmers. Yeah whatever I dont like farmers either, but you would be [removed] if there wernt any.
Everything would be more expensive for sure. Or, lets say even some people hardcore farmed recipes etc, they could charge whatever they wanted, similar to farmers, and you would have to pay for it.
Really what needs to be changed is the overall game itself. Drops quests etc.
Ive got about 2 billion adena in gear atm though, so I personally dont care much ... hoho
Please don't bypass the filter. - M
Well for one im a nice person so I won't call you DUMB.
Think about it. It is suppose to be hard to collect materials and craft items. If all farmers disappeared tomorrow Alot of items available in the game today would be gone. Of course prices would go through the roof.
But think of it this way. What reason do you think made NCSOFT NA make the drop rates so low. Its the farmers with them collecting 24/7 they had to lower drop rates so the markets don't get too flooded. If all the farmers are gone they would have to raise the drop rates to a sufficient lvl to accomidate the players base. I still believe that a price cap on everything in game would remove the farmers. An increase in drop rates would also cause a huge amount of farmers to quite since you wouldn't need them to farm the materials for you. If the drop rate was high enough that you could collect enough materials to craft atleast 1 item a month it would be outstanding.
Case in point I farmed SOV blades for almost 2 months and only got 5 blades. That is why farmers are here and will be here to stay.
Kruken I think u may have got it wrong when u say NCSoft adjusted the droprate because Farmers are ard.
From wad I understand, the drop rate is super low the first time this game comes out even when Botters are beginning to surface.
Low Drop Rate encourages farmers as they know things are hard to get. Non-hardcore players would really need a lot of luck factor before they even get a good drop. But not so with the botters. Not to mention those farmers keep hording the Raid mobs and they PK other players who reach the mob before them.
So how is normal players like u and me gonna enjoy the game fully?
Kruken I think u may have got it wrong when u say NCSoft adjusted the droprate because Farmers are ard.
They adjust drop rate for everything. Mostly because of farmers. I already dont know why I need these 5-10 stem or silver nugget I have in my inventory after exping. It is boring to delete or deposit these mats every day. If I need to craft something I have to buy mats on the market. What NCsoft made with raidbosses in C4? They drop parts for armor and weapon but full drop became rare. It is really hard to get A-grade helmets by raiding. The more farmers in the game - the less drop rate. The less drop rate the more people go to market to buy something from farmers.
Kruken I think u may have got it wrong when u say NCSoft adjusted the droprate because Farmers are ard.
From wad I understand, the drop rate is super low the first time this game comes out even when Botters are beginning to surface.
Low Drop Rate encourages farmers as they know things are hard to get. Non-hardcore players would really need a lot of luck factor before they even get a good drop. But not so with the botters. Not to mention those farmers keep hording the Raid mobs and they PK other players who reach the mob before them.
So how is normal players like u and me gonna enjoy the game fully?
This is just from my experience. I started in C2 yes there were farmers. But not the numbers we have now. The drop rate was low but not impossible. Then C3 drop rate got worse and more famers. Now C4 drop rate is even worse and we are infested with farmers everywhere you go. Now I have no hard numbers to back this up. But just from playing 2 or more hours almost every day since C2. This is what I have experienced. Hey I just may be one very unlucky person. I have 2 60+ toons and have never had a full drop of C grade or better. I have only had 2 D grade drops back when brig shields were not worth that much 200k I think.
It just makes sense to me. If NCSOFT monitors the game they pay attention to whats going on. They want this game to last years. So the more materials specially higher lvl items in game the more they lower drop rates. Look what they did for raid bosses in C4. They drop more materials then full items now except major bosses.
I may well be way off the mark here. But it makes sense to me.
Kruken I think u may have got it wrong when u say NCSoft adjusted the droprate because Farmers are ard.
From wad I understand, the drop rate is super low the first time this game comes out even when Botters are beginning to surface.
Low Drop Rate encourages farmers as they know things are hard to get. Non-hardcore players would really need a lot of luck factor before they even get a good drop. But not so with the botters. Not to mention those farmers keep hording the Raid mobs and they PK other players who reach the mob before them.
So how is normal players like u and me gonna enjoy the game fully?
This is just from my experience. I started in C2 yes there were farmers. But not the numbers we have now. The drop rate was low but not impossible. Then C3 drop rate got worse and more famers. Now C4 drop rate is even worse and we are infested with farmers everywhere you go. Now I have no hard numbers to back this up. But just from playing 2 or more hours almost every day since C2. This is what I have experienced. Hey I just may be one very unlucky person. I have 2 60+ toons and have never had a full drop of C grade or better. I have only had 2 D grade drops back when brig shields were not worth that much 200k I think.
It just makes sense to me. If NCSOFT monitors the game they pay attention to whats going on. They want this game to last years. So the more materials specially higher lvl items in game the more they lower drop rates. Look what they did for raid bosses in C4. They drop more materials then full items now except major bosses.
I may well be way off the mark here. But it makes sense to me.
Yeah... I haven't any idea what the actual numbers are, but it seems that way to me too. And it would make sense also.
You should assume a 0% probability of a full drop. Full drops, at least from normal exp grinding, aren't meant to be relied upon, they are meant as an event of extraordinary good fortune.
Full drops are meant to be obtained only from collective effort: Raid Bosses and Crafting.
Crafting is meant to be a joint effort. You may only get 5 blades of SOV, but maybe you have other blades/shafts/parts. You are meant to trade or sell those to other players in order to obtain what you want.
In my experience, the system works as intended, except that the farmers displace the need of ordinary players to grind for cash, raw materials and primary materials. As a result, players are higher level than they should be (they spend more time grinding for exp than grinding for items, crafting, and bartering) and there is a shortage of player-run bountyhunters.
NCsoft should look more closely at the spoil tables and the manor system, and should take more profound action against the most eggregious farmers (raid boss farmers), and then the system would operate a lot better.
You should assume a 0% probability of a full drop. Full drops, at least from normal exp grinding, aren't meant to be relied upon, they are meant as an event of extraordinary good fortune.
Full drops are meant to be obtained only from collective effort: Raid Bosses and Crafting.
Crafting is meant to be a joint effort. You may only get 5 blades of SOV, but maybe you have other blades/shafts/parts. You are meant to trade or sell those to other players in order to obtain what you want.
In my experience, the system works as intended, except that the farmers displace the need of ordinary players to grind for cash, raw materials and primary materials. As a result, players are higher level than they should be (they spend more time grinding for exp than grinding for items, crafting, and bartering) and there is a shortage of player-run bountyhunters.
NCsoft should look more closely at the spoil tables and the manor system, and should take more profound action against the most eggregious farmers (raid boss farmers), and then the system would operate a lot better.
In addition to what Gordon says, I would like to add that the people who farm mats 24/7 draw in so many mats that it forces NCSoft to lower the drop rate in order to keep the economy healthy. If they did not, the whole market would be absolutley flooded with mats and items, all the stuff would be so worthless you could hardly give it away.
If we get rid of the 24/7 farmers, they would have to increase the drop rate to maintain the same level of economic growth, which would make it much much more fun for regular players, since we would be able to actually farm the mats we need and we might even get a drop once in a while.
So it all boils down to is we need to get rid of the [Blanks] and the [Censorded] And in order to do that, we need to select a few players that will speak for the player base. Then those select few can talk with/to NC unhindered.
If we get rid of the 24/7 farmers, they would have to increase the drop rate to maintain the same level of economic growth, which would make it much much more fun for regular players, since we would be able to actually farm the mats we need and we might even get a drop once in a while.
So it all boils down to is we need to get rid of the [Blanks] and the [Censorded] And in order to do that, we need to select a few players that will speak for the player base. Then those select few can talk with/to NC unhindered.
If we get rid of the 24/7 farmers, they would have to increase the drop rate to maintain the same level of economic growth, which would make it much much more fun for regular players, since we would be able to actually farm the mats we need and we might even get a drop once in a while.
I see where you're coming from... And I agree with you. Only one problem though. Who will those players be?
In addition to what Gordon says, I would like to add that the people who farm mats 24/7 draw in so many mats that it forces NCSoft to lower the drop rate in order to keep the economy healthy. If they did not, the whole market would be absolutley flooded with mats and items, all the stuff would be so worthless you could hardly give it away.
If we get rid of the 24/7 farmers, they would have to increase the drop rate to maintain the same level of economic growth, which would make it much much more fun for regular players, since we would be able to actually farm the mats we need and we might even get a drop once in a while.
Thats what im trying to say. Just didn't quite get it out there as clear as you did.
There is no point in making the Materials hard to aquire now.
They are here already.
So the easiest way to get rid of the Farmers is to cut the demand by raising droprates.
If NC Soft lowers droprates and that means more farmers the opposite is also true. I dont want a WoW, where the Money grows on trees, but i want a perspective on gaining my upgrades through normal farming and levling.
Those of you who want the Game to be hard are really afraid of loosing your position on the top ;)
But now you just lose it to Professionals who are even better at farming than you.
And the Profesionals are impartial to whom to give the Items. You have absolutly no control despite owning a castle or having a strong alliance. Face it King of Aden, the Bankers are running the Server. :p
What you have said here by no means prove that the adjustment made is due to the botters. The reason why it is easier to get drops is because in C3 they implemented no exp/droprate penalty even when the mob is green to u.
If I remember correctly from the guide book that comes in the DVD collection package, every lvl of the player above the mob lvl will have a -6% in exp and drop rate. So in C3 players can hunt green mob(which is easier for them) and still get same exp and droprate if the mob is yellow or white.
The problem of botters/farmers lies largely in Supply and Demand. Take it away and wad u left are lazy cheaters who are too lazy to lvl and they are easy to deal with.
It is the lure of money that professional farmers and botters constantly find ways around measures that are put up against them(eg GameGuard). So for every means NCSoft or players come out to fight botting/farming problems, there are 10 counter measures. That's how pple who are out to earn a fast buck will react.
For example, rumours flying saying Farmers are paying clans to war against other clan who are "disturbing" their trade.( I am saying this to emphasis my point that professional farmers/botters always go extra mile to go ard problem they face.)
The only way I can see this problem reduce significantly is for NCSoft to tackle the Supply/Demand issue. Tackle and make players feel that "since I can get it myself with relatively ease, why should I waste money to get a virtual items?"
I guess there are enough suggestions already been put forth and dun think there is a need for me to repeat it.
I dun understand why pple keep saying NCSoft has to adjust droprate inorder to keep economy going.
Unlike in the real world, there is no virtual government we need to upkeep. There is no need for the economy in virtual game like L2 to keep it "healthy". We dun need to pay tax to get a service, it is already included in the subscription fees if that is wad u guys are talking about.
Hello are we feeding any families here? Is there anyone other than professional farmers depend their livelihood on in this game called Lineage 2? The price of items/mat/potions etc etc do not affect our standard of living in game. Pls be mindful that the abilities to get these items affects only the way you play. Eg PVP, abilities to hunt higher/lower lvl mobs at a certain lvl etc.
Guys dun u get it, it is exactly the kind mentality that you posses that allow the farmers to flourish. The thing in ur mind is telling u that if you dun have top notch weapons/jewels/armours, you cannot PVP well, hunt well, feed ur ego well etc etc.
Market force is the kind of economy system that any virtual game has. ie to put it simply, supply and demand. When something is highly in demand and supply is low(eg low droprate), of course the price sour sky high. And in this case, the price sour even higher cause professional farmers horde Raid mob, good hunting ground etc.
Pple unable to get the item needed for their class and lvls by normal mean as we all know unless u take a calculator to access the money spent vs adena earned per mob, or spend tremendous amount of time to earn that 1 mil, they are tempted to do something else to get what they need in game.
After saying this I know there will be pple coming and tell me that players can do trade, set up craft shop etc etc. Sure, but pls tell me how in the world a completely new player starting with nothing earn their first 5 million to get them prepared for their D grade without the need of spending tremendous amount of time? Dun believe me? Go and make one new toon in another server whom u have no friends to begin with.
Have anyone wonder why noob towns are now ghost towns or "reroll" toon town?
So throw away all the crap that tells u L2 has a economy to upkeep.(and we all know not everyone in NA NCsoft has a degree/master in Economy lolx) I rather everything cost only 1a to buy.
Tell me when everything is dirt cheap, do u still need to have a "healthy" economy so that u can earn enough to buy wad u need?. If u ask me, let the market crashed down to the floor and let me get the items I rightfully deserve.
Taking advantage of gameplay *camping every single raidboss with an alt, controlling when it spawns* bannable offense IMO!
Why can't you just continually PK their camper? You know, the one that's there to tell them when the boss spawns?
yes that makes a lot of sence also. Lets pk the lvl 1 alt camping the raid boss so he can... um... er... do the same thing its still doing? looking for the raidboss to spawn...
Was going to respond to a couple people on here. But this dead horse has been beat so much its in several different pieces, and some of the posts dont even make sense anymore.
Was going to respond to a couple people on here. But this dead horse has been beat so much its in several different pieces, and some of the posts dont even make sense anymore.
Lets see what happens in C5
Pieces? Oh my god, we've killed it! It's dead! :eek:
I still believe that a price cap on everything in game would remove the farmers.
Just want to add that a price cap will never work. Because it will not be enforcable. If you modify private shops so that nobody can sell an item for more than, say, twice the npc sell price - people will simply offer their items via shout, and sell via trade window for whatever they want to have for it.
Something needs to be done about this problem soon. People are becoming depressed they can't get their subclasses done or SA crystals for their weapons because of these **** farmers.
Go read my last post in this thread, because soon this thread will be locked.
We need a central player voice that speaks for the players. It would be alot easier to get changes done or voice our concern if mistryl only has to listen to one person that speaks for us. Then to listen to all of us rambling on.
You would all be in C and mayyybe B grade at higher levels, or most people would, a huge amount of people ebay etc, the player base would drop drastically.
Yes, Ive been playing since C1, im a 75 necro/sub hawkeye, and this is one of my 5 characters that are 60+
There have never NOT been farmers, so you don't know what it would be like without them.
They are the collectors of materials, the farmers of items, supply and demand.
There will be a huge amount of demand "i want my a grade etc"
Lets assume there are no farmers right now, ok, the prices will skyrocket, think about dc helms, and other hard to obtain things, most people just dont do it, or cant, or dont have the adena to do it.
But, even if you have a billion adena, hehe, it will only buy some things, the players can charge whatever they want, the supply would be strictly player based, which isnt high... even with farmers now there are never many a grade helms for sale, and if there are they are tons of money, because of the long quest, and 60% chance to actually do it.
Ok so your clan does raidbosses, great, so now we get to the more positive part, at least clans could fight each other, or farm the bosses, and possibly get some drops.
But I know that most raids do not end with many a grade weapons/armor, but they can.
So you would have these farmed by the strongest clans, smaller clans killed by the bigger ones, pvp is good but it wont really solve the problem of "expensive gear" The clan that controls the market, much like farmers, can charge whatever they want, whats holding them back?
I have no major issues with the general farmers in this game, my main concern are the farmers that are preventing the players from getting to the high level content of this game because they are killing the required mobs to advance your toon. This is a problem that most find it hard to overcome. They need to address this by either changing or providing different ways to do these things. I think that is a much more viable and easier solution then trying to get rid of the farmers.
You would all be in C and mayyybe B grade at higher levels, or most people would, a huge amount of people ebay etc, the player base would drop drastically.
Yes, Ive been playing since C1, im a 75 necro/sub hawkeye, and this is one of my 5 characters that are 60+
There have never NOT been farmers, so you don't know what it would be like without them.
They are the collectors of materials, the farmers of items, supply and demand.
There will be a huge amount of demand "i want my a grade etc"
Lets assume there are no farmers right now, ok, the prices will skyrocket, think about dc helms, and other hard to obtain things, most people just dont do it, or cant, or dont have the adena to do it.
But, even if you have a billion adena, hehe, it will only buy some things, the players can charge whatever they want, the supply would be strictly player based, which isnt high... even with farmers now there are never many a grade helms for sale, and if there are they are tons of money, because of the long quest, and 60% chance to actually do it.
Ok so your clan does raidbosses, great, so now we get to the more positive part, at least clans could fight each other, or farm the bosses, and possibly get some drops.
But I know that most raids do not end with many a grade weapons/armor, but they can.
So you would have these farmed by the strongest clans, smaller clans killed by the bigger ones, pvp is good but it wont really solve the problem of "expensive gear" The clan that controls the market, much like farmers, can charge whatever they want, whats holding them back?
Think before you post.
As I have said earlier in this thread, getting rid of farmers will just make stuff harder to get (as it should be)... not more expensive.
Well ok, harder to get yes, but to the lazy players that enjoy to pay 2 play, Yes, I would pay 500m for a helm if theres only a few on the market :P Supply and demand, even with no farmers, most people will not farm their own equipment, its just hard.
The people that do "farm" the good A grade things, and get the stuff legit etc, will charge whatever they want, since they are the only ones doing it.
So instead of farmers you have people will 12+ hours of playtime a day acting as your farmers :P Or a powerful clan can be used in place of farmers, whats the diff? The farmers sell adena I guess, but prices will not go down, they will shoot up, think about it holy... LESS items, HIGH demand, = lower prices? rofl. no. good try though.
Well ok, harder to get yes, but to the lazy players that enjoy to pay 2 play, Yes, I would pay 500m for a helm if theres only a few on the market :P Supply and demand, even with no farmers, most people will not farm their own equipment, its just hard.
The people that do "farm" the good A grade things, and get the stuff legit etc, will charge whatever they want, since they are the only ones doing it.
So instead of farmers you have people will 12+ hours of playtime a day acting as your farmers :P Or a powerful clan can be used in place of farmers, whats the diff? The farmers sell adena I guess, but prices will not go down, they will shoot up, think about it holy... LESS items, HIGH demand, = lower prices? rofl. no. good try though.
Indiana, we understand your point. But economically speaking, you're off base because you're not differentiating between nominal prices and real prices.
Without farmers, gear will be more difficult to get. But less people will have UBER gear, and accordingly, you won't need uber gear to be competitive. It would be like OE weapons are. Some fortunate or rich players have highly OE'd items, but in general you don't need to have one to be competitive because it's not like *everyone* has one except you.
Without farmers, items become more scarce. Some rich players or clans will get small numbers of these items from farming, lucky drops, and raid bosses. But they still cannot charge "whatever they want" because you can only charge what people are willing and able to pay.
These rare items will be more valuable, but people will have less adena to pay for them with. So the real consequence is that prices will not increase - adena will just be more valuable. Or, put another way, Dark Crystal helms will still be 100-200 million, but fewer people will be selling helms, and fewer people will have 100-200 million to buy helms.
We'll all run around in C and B-grade, and we won't really care that we don't have soulbows and draconic bows because almost nobody will have them, just like back in C3, C2, C1 and prelude. Those were fun times, btw, if you remember.
Im insanly rich ingame, +10 soulbow, +5 dc robe set, +5 maje jewelery set etc etc, the list goes on.
I see farmers as more of a tool then anything, I guess.
Yet, dont forget, $$$$, rl money, yeah.
you said "But they still cannot charge "whatever they want" because you can only charge what people are willing and able to pay."
Well, I know alot of people that will pay virtually anything, for virtual items, hehe get it?
Any way, maybe your are right, alot of the populace will not purchase the overpriced helmets etc, but a fair amount of people would including me sadly, lol.
Oh yeah, I didnt play prelude, but C1/c2/c3 etc... yeah.. overenchanted stuff was alot more rare, but **** c3 A grade was on some people within a week.
I dont see why it would be harder to get gear without raid boss farmers. The raid boss farmers on my server sell the items they get at an insanely high price so there aren't many people buying them anyway. Without them you would at least get a chance at getting drops.
Without farmers, clan can gather people and go killthe raidboss for some drops. They will be self sufficient to equip members.
Now what? They port to RB, seeing that some chinese speaking characters are just SOEing and RB is dead?