I'm just throwing this into the fray to hear what people think about the RPS system:
Using a RPS (Rock, Paper and Scissors) system is a childish and naive way to balance combat. It makes the fighting predictable and boring. As boring as playing a game of RPS during any length of time. And RPS does in no way mimic a real combat situation between different types of units. In realistic combat, skill prevails over fighting type and even if different types have different strengths and weaknesses you can never tell before hand that one type will win over another.
But in a RPS system you try to achieve exactly that: type will prevail over skill. Unfortunately, if being a tank almost always means you'll lose to a mage, mage almost always to archer, etc, you'll have a boring and static combat system where skill matters little.
It's tragic that Ncsoft thinks it can balance a combat game with a RPS system and make it exciting. It does not only make it unrealistic and boring, but also very unbalanced. A RPS system depends on that people actually play all 3 types equally (rock, paper and scissors). But if you have a game where most people prefer one or two types then a RPS system is useless. If everyone plays a rock (mage) then what balance is there?
As an example take the tyrant. In c5 the tyrant is being integrated into the RPS system. The problem is that the tyrant is a hybrid class which doesn't fit easily into any type. This is against the whole RPS idea. So the tyrant has to be changed and downgraded heavily to fit in. But very few players are playing tyrants today and after the changes in c5 virtually no one but a few obstinate believers will continue to play tyrants. Most tyrant players will reroll to mages (rocks) and everyone else will never even consider the class.
I ask you again, what point is there to play a childish game of rock, paper and scissors, with only rocks?
I think you are putting too much thought into it quite honestly. They may have a RPS design but it in NO WAY makes thngs definite. Trust me I think its ******ed to think this type of game can be rock, paper, scissors. I believe I have explained it on many threads. Even if they implement a RPS design it will not be definite by any means.
Yet another person taking the entire thing literally.
They have used the term RPS to illustrate a potential way that things will work, to show that certain classes will have an advantage over others. Combinations and teamwork with these varied types will be necessary in order to achieve victory.
This isn't a set system. You wont walk up to a Nuker as an Archer and automatically win cause the RPS system says so. It's going to be very similar to what it is now, except every class is going to have much more chance at dealing with the others. This might mean they have a few advantageous ways of killing them or disabling them to escape so that their friends can kill them.
What they have shown so far is that future combat in C5 is going to be more variated and there are going to be multiple ways to win fights. I hope this will kill the stupid bandwagon hopping class shifting habits of many people as that hurts game balance a great deal in itself.
So lets see what happens when C5 comes out, I think it will be enjoyable.
I think Skyler is correct. I would wait and see how it works out. I'm not really a "sky is falling" type of person. Especially when we have no real hard evidence. And I think people keep forgetting. This is an online game. They can change so much that one update might bring some changes and the next others.
Op, maybe you should see what they changed, and how ineffective it is on our current gameplay, before you assume their RPS system will change PVP.
I hope people aren't expecting the game to change much, because it isn't. Archer and Nukers will still be better at everything in this game, PVP, PVE, raids, and ganking.
Their attempt at putting nukers in check will only affect Defensive mages vs Offensive mages in the Olympiad. Nukers will still be the best at PVP, PVE, raids, sieges and gankings. Mana Burn will not change PVPs that aren't 1v1 one bit. Anyone trying to cast Mana Burn will be instantly killed by, you guessed it, archers and nukers.
Now, to make the game even worse for melees than it already is, the sucky melees approaching the enemies (slowly) will have their MP sucked dry by defensive mages that are where they have always been, in the rear ranks. So now the 1-2 lucky melees that somehow werent attacked by the archers and nukers will not have any MP to do anything in PVP.
GJ NC, you just made melee characters even worse than they already were, and I didn't think this was possible. C5 will still be completelty dominated by archers and nukers, nothing new, don't expect anything else.
Did you say tanks can hate now, drawing all this nuker and archer fire? Cancel tank, tank dead 1 second later from arrows and/or nukes. Next?
Using a RPS (Rock, Paper and Scissors) system is a childish and naive way to balance combat. It makes the fighting predictable and boring.
how exactly has it changed?
right now its practically a guarantee that a mage will beat a melee
archer vs tank might take a while but theres no doubt the archer either wins or gets bored
all rps means is it will no longer be a case of mages>everyone else
i think healers getting mana burn can change pvp alot. make a group of 9 healers, have everyone assist on one person and all mana burn same time. do this just as fast as nukers and youll drain nuker mp as fast as nukers can nuke. 9 x 200mp = 1800mp = all the mp they had left.
PS i picked 200mp cause id assume the healers would have better then ghoul staff and that the drainee doesnt have s grade jewels. id think i was being conservative.
how exactly has it changed?
right now its practically a guarantee that a mage will beat a melee
archer vs tank might take a while but theres no doubt the archer either wins or gets bored
all rps means is it will no longer be a case of mages>everyone else
This is exactly why it's wrong. It doesn't change the underlying problem of inevitability and imbalance in combat, it merely codifies it.
It'll still be "practically a guarantee that a mage will beat a melee", except anyone who complains about it will be told "it's supposed to be that way"...whee, that sounds fun :)
PS i picked 200mp cause id assume the healers would have better then ghoul staff and that the drainee doesnt have s grade jewels. id think i was being conservative.
As long as we're rumormongering, I'd heard 100mp and that MAtk/MDef didn't affect it. *shrug*
FYI man, just a heads-up, RPS does NOT mean rock ALWAYS beats scissors.
especially not in L2.
this also DOES NOT mean that if you are a certain class, you will always be pwnt by some other certain class.
especially not in L2.
because of the natore of the random party, and level differences, and skill availablility, and equipments, and SA's and +es and all the rest of that jazz, the Rock-Paper-Scissors effect makes winning pvp a decidedly unpredestinated event.
for u nub0z who cant read english this means THE OUTCOME IS NOT SET IN STONE.
Paladin Vs Paladin both identical equipment, identical skills, identical everything EITHER one can win, it does NOT mean they both will loose.
dude, settle into the thinking that you MAy win, you MIGHT win, but you most certainly cannot ALWAYS win.
rocks vs rocks? i dont think so. the chance of magic crit is the same for everyone and can happen at any time. sometimes rock 1 will win. sometimes rock2 will win. but you wont see a little dialogue box asking you to pick scissors rock and paper.
In realistic combat, skill prevails over fighting type and even if different types have different strengths and weaknesses you can never tell before hand that one type will win over another.
Actually, you're wrong. I can tell you for fact that armor (ie, tanks) will almost always win against non-specialized infantry, for instance. Battle is all about strategy and less about skill; an unskilled band of pikemen can still beat a cavalry charge, only to be cut down by the infantry and bowmen behind said charge. Real combat is all about type vs type. Skill does come into play, yes, but no amount of skill will allow a single infantryman with small arms to take out a fully armored tank (Unless the infantryman is Solid Snake).
G/L putting togther a group of 9 healers. Almost all players are now Archer or Nukers and C5 won't change people minds or playstyle.
Not true. You know what I've noticed since I started reading these forums. 1% of the people that play L2 come here or less. The rest stay in game and play the game. So far everyone I talked to ingame has no clue c5 is even coming. They dont know about the cursed sword, about the rps system and about every other whine and nerf coming.
It's the same group of people answering every thread, and the same group of people whining about nerfs and wanting something changed. It's not gonna happen with only 1% of people. I hope not. The other 99% are enjoying the game as it is. With nerfs or not. Balanced or not. If it wasn't for work, I wouldn't be on the forums either :p. But hey, gotta do something to kill time.
G/L putting togther a group of 9 healers. Almost all players are now Archer or Nukers and C5 won't change people minds or playstyle.
Not true. You know what I've noticed since I started reading these forums. 1% of the people that play L2 come here or less. The rest stay in game and play the game. So far everyone I talked to ingame has no clue c5 is even coming. They dont know about the cursed sword, about the rps system and about every other whine and nerf coming.
It's the same group of people answering every thread, and the same group of people whining about nerfs and wanting something changed. It's not gonna happen with only 1% of people. I hope not. The other 99% are enjoying the game as it is. With nerfs or not. Balanced or not. If it wasn't for work, I wouldn't be on the forums either :p. But hey, gotta do something to kill time.
Well actually, i cannot agree with you. People missinformed or not informed at all don't make good judges... If those people that never stop by the forrums got here, i don't really think their views would be so much different than ours.
That's exactly the point. They don't. They dont know. So as long as it doesnt happen, you cannot expect changes to be made based on a few people on forums. Even though some ideas and changes are great.
People in game download c5. Yay, another chronicle.
People in forums download c5. ****, not this nuker overpowered crap again.
Edit: Do you honestly think that if 5000 different users logged on and posted on the "Nuker is overpowered" thread, NCSOFT would do nothing?
not as many people are rerolling nuker anymore. In fact some have stopped playing their nukers altogether. The simple fact of the matter is that they are boring and most play the game to have fun. Only the 15 year olds who want to 'pwn anything that moves' will reroll nuker still, teh rest will eventually try a different class whether through subclassing after their nuker is high lvl or just plain bored of their class and trying a new one. I must say at the end of C3 it was pretty bleak and MANY people were going nuker but the bandwagon seems to have lost a wheel and people are trying out other ways to ENJOY the game.
That's exactly the point. They don't. They dont know. So as long as it doesnt happen, you cannot expect changes to be made based on a few people on forums. Even though some ideas and changes are great.
People in game download c5. Yay, another chronicle.
People in forums download c5. ****, not this nuker overpowered crap again.
Edit: Do you honestly think that if 5000 different users logged on and posted on the "Nuker is overpowered" thread, NCSOFT would do nothing?
To the point of being overly pescimistic... yeah, I don't think it would change anything... not to the point that it matters anyway... I hope I'm wrong though :eek: