NC is saying that the Economy in Lineage is completely player driven...
That is evident by the low item/mat drops, low spoil rates, players cramming up towns and stairways, etc.
There is a gray side to this that only recently dawned on me.
If the Ecomomy is completely player driven, then why are the items in the stores (NPC's) so expencive?
When C4 came out, the higher grade fish rods weren't exactly cheap, what is it, 1m for B , 5m for A and 9m for S grade rod? (prices are hypothetical, since I haven't seen the Fisherman in a long time).
Anyway, just curious on the validity of the whole "Player driven" thing.
Personally, I think that Millions upon millions of adena was the idea for items from the get-go.
Aparently Koreans love mind-numbing grind. In terms of making XP and money, and they frequently use "other" sources of in-game currency, which might explain some well known "issues" we all dislike. That and a large number of monthly subscriptions.
But the point is, unfortunately, L2 was designed for a Korean playerabse, not a north american one, the same things do NOT appeal to both cultures. We really need a NA dev team to make NA specific changes, that are defiently required.
As it is, L2 does not have waht it takes to sustain a viable playerbase for another 8 chronicles. Or does it? Maybe player is the wrong term, but maybe it does indeed of the subscription number viable too, though not neccisarly "players". If you catch my drift.
If they upped the drop rate, that would just give bots more things to sell, and, contrary to the rules of
\Supply and Demand/
would make them want MORE for the items, since they're too greedy to understand anything about common sense.
I'd have to agree with that statement as much it is not popular to agree with NCSoft, I would in this case.
Let's look at the common community playstyles, at least 95% of the non-farmer population of nukers/dd/tanks spam shots like crazy wether they be ss, sp, or bsp. You don't HAVE TO use shots to be successful in the game, but at one point it was what would put you on the fast path to levelling and thus has become the standard. The use/overuse of the shot leaves the player with less adena for shopping. Also, in turn this spurs the economy for the dwarven population in terms of crafting the higher level shots.
Secondly, let's look at how NCsoft has "decreased" mat drops. This I feel might be artifically decreased, once again, by the player population and choice of playstyle rather than a forced blanket implemenation. An example would be the catacombs or anyplace where you might have a 4x-6x mob. Fighting a 4x or 6x mob, on the drop you would get adena, and some sort of mat. If you fight 4 1x mobs you still get adena but now you've gotten the chance at 4 mats. So, there's not really a decrease in mat drops so much as a player's choice to get fewer mat drops. Now it could also be argued that you may get a drop of CBP from 1 4x mob whereas if you fought 4 1x mob and only got 4 animal bones that still doesn't add up to 1 CBP...So personally I kind of still have yet to think this one through completely...
There are definitely small ways that NCSoft influences the economy such as control of the prices of consumables, but when it comes to the larger scale economy I would have to side with NCSoft in that with its current implementation of its economic system, it is still largely driven by players.
...It could be argued that for things like clan halls and stuff it's insane to be able to afford 1 billion adena, let's not forget that some less scrupulous players find alternate methods of funding to afford such extravagances...So, once again that is not NCSoft jacking the prices, but players.
[I know this reply is probably going to make me very unpopular :( ]
Koreans arn't the only ones that enjoy a mind numbing impossible long grind.
3 other people do
People here enjoy things being really difficult, thus many things being rare, a top level toon, a +ed out weapon, the best of the best gear, a high level pet? To be unique or uber drives these people to play more.
The second group is the group likes every thing the first does, but they don't want to leave anything to luck or put the "extra" in game effort into it... so they turn to group number 3....
The group that provides group number two with the resources they need to compete with group number one at a $ price.
All three together make for a viable number of subscriptions in my opinion.
Everyone wants top stuff, but not everyone is supposed to have it. Only players that put in a lot of effort and teamwork (or very lucky gamblers) are supposed to achieve the top end gear.
But EVERYONE still wants it, driving prices up. Then the players that aren't supposed to have it use the high prices to justify cheating.
Anyone can have anything they want in this game if they just work at it. But many people are lazy.
Getting the good stuff in this game requires giving something up. Either time spent buying/selling/trading to make money, or slower leveling speed grouping dwarves, or time spent not EXPing to go raid.
There are a TON of cheaters in this game, and if not for them, there would be no farmers, and we'd all be happily PVPing in our theca sets, except for a small handful of top players.
Everyone wants top stuff, but not everyone is supposed to have it. Only players that put in a lot of effort and teamwork (or very lucky gamblers) are supposed to achieve the top end gear.
But EVERYONE still wants it, driving prices up. Then the players that aren't supposed to have it use the high prices to justify cheating.
Anyone can have anything they want in this game if they just work at it. But many people are lazy.
Getting the good stuff in this game requires giving something up. Either time spent buying/selling/trading to make money, or slower leveling speed grouping dwarves, or time spent not EXPing to go raid.
There are a TON of cheaters in this game, and if not for them, there would be no farmers, and we'd all be happily PVPing in our theca sets, except for a small handful of top players.
Yeah... Absolutely true. And we all know that a legit player (pr clan, or alliance etc) cannot, I repeat, CANNOT compete with RL money buyers... Sure, you can sometimes win, if the RL money buyer in question is a complete and utterly uselles n00b... but most of the times, you can't. And this is exactly the reason that I cannot agree with people saying "play the game as you like, the people that buy stuff for RL money dont mean anything to you, they dont really spoil the game, they just spoil it for themselves". Hah? That's the whole point, they are not spoiling it just for themselves, they're spoiling it for everyone! We cannot play this game as it should be played, and certainly not how it is advertized to be played. Why do you think that talking about "botters" and "RL money buying players" is forbiden on these boards? Because they would not like this game to be advertised as "the most horribly bot-infested game ever!", which would be ABSOLUTELY true... This is EXACTLY how this game should be advertised...
Hello... Jesus, its starting to get sureal! I mean, NCsoft saying that the L2 economy is player-driven is just... beyond commenting! I mean, who in their right mind (and after playing L2 for a few months at least) can really claim that to be true without bursting into uncontrolable tears of laughter?
I keep playing this game because I've been here for over 2 years and I have made many friends, not to mention the fact that I would probably keep playing it anyway.. I'm hooked, what can I say... But this does not, in ANY way mean that I would not be out of the door faster then wind when sthing REMOTELY better (or maybe equally good) came along... And I really don't think I'm talking for the minority of players in this game... quite the contrary. Another 8 chronicles to go, with the current attitude concerning "cheaters"? Ohh, please... Pull the other one! :)
It's scary how true this statement is. Also if anyone wants to know if prices for items in game are going to rise or fall. All you have to do is look on the internet. There are several places out there that dictate the ingame economy. If its cheap on the internet the prices in game go up. If its expensive on the internet the in game prices will go down.
If you haven't looked the prices on the internet have fallen through the floor and in the last week prices in the game have skyrocketed. I mean come on what justifies 10k for steel or 20k for CBP.
The PLAYERS do nothing to control the economy. All you can do is play along with it because there isnt a single person in this game who has sold anything above D grade from a private shop for the real item value (as designed in the game ie.. NPC value).
It's scary how true this statement is. Also if anyone wants to know if prices for items in game are going to rise or fall. All you have to do is look on the internet. There are several places out there that dictate the ingame economy. If its cheap on the internet the prices in game go up. If its expensive on the internet the in game prices will go down.
If you haven't looked the prices on the internet have fallen through the floor and in the last week prices in the game have skyrocketed. I mean come on what justifies 10k for steel or 20k for CBP.
The PLAYERS do nothing to control the economy. All you can do is play along with it because there isnt a single person in this game who has sold anything above D grade from a private shop for the real item value (as designed in the game ie.. NPC value).
well, for me the whole point of "playing the market" is to find a way how to sell overpriced items to 2nd group
I do the same thing. I dont like the way the economy is driven by outside game influences. But at this time I don't see what I personaly can do to stop it. Except not using the player market and we all know where that will get you.
So I play the market we have. I have done pretty well. Once you have the capital to invest into the market it is pretty easy to make adena. Just getting started is the hard part.
If they upped the drop rate, that would just give bots more things to sell, and, contrary to the rules of
\Supply and Demand/
would make them want MORE for the items, since they're too greedy to understand anything about common sense.
"Player Driven" my foot...
when I read something like this it makes me think that you have given up. If we all got together had one goal, and that was to drive these types of players from the game they would be gone or at least the market. If the drop rate increases that means more for you and me during the grind and sure it would also mean more for the others it wouldn't just mean more for the bots in game.
If drop rates were increased prices would definatley drop. I dont think NCSOFT should worry about there being to many materials in the market from higher drop rates. Since anyone who goes through giran can tell you the market is flooded with materials as it is. The problem is those materials for the most part are controled buy 24/7 players. They are not desperately trying to upgrade thier gear, and have multiple accounts just for setting in town and selling these items at high prices. I myself would only sell items at NPC values if I knew I could make enough to upgrade my gear. But I can't so I am forced to sell at the current inflated values. It's a viscious cycle that never ends.
This systems does work for most people that have the patients to play the market. In 2 weeks I have turned 31mil into 326mil without setting foot outside Giran. So take some time off from the grind and play the market you will be just fine.
A good event would surely drop prices...key word being 'good'. High lvl Soul Crystals, Armor/Weapon Enchants, A, S Crystals/Gems, ect. Perhaps another raid mobs thing like Halloween, or a collection event like the medals or pumpkins.
We all talk about bots for one reason or another. There was an article in Computer Gameing World April 06 that was about online games and there economy in game and out.
There was a part in it about NCsoft and how they had banned alot of accounts for botting. They were taken to court and it was deemed that NC had no right to say how a person played the game and that the account wasnt Nc's to bann, so in other words they were taken to court and lost and all the accounts that they banned for botting (IE farming) were reinstated. (IGE made $880 MILLION in the US alone last year)
That might be some of the reason that botting is so rampent in game. It kills me to see trains of toons running to a guard to suicide and no GM takes any action against them, and they use the same pathing points over and over so you know its not someone there makeing it run.
I would have imagined NC could ban you for whatever reason they wanted. I didn't think we had any real rights to play. Of course being a buisness its not a good practice to ban indiscriminantly. But I can't imagine the courts can tell NC who can play and who can't. Noob judges
We all talk about bots for one reason or another. There was an article in PC gamer that was about online games and there economy in game and out. There was a part in it about NCsoft and how they had banned alot of accounts for botting. They were taken to court and it was deemed that NC had no right to say how a person played the game and that the account wasnt Nc's to bann, so in other words they were taken to court and lost and all the accounts that they banned for botting (IE farming) were reinstated. Ill have to get it out and Ill post the month and such.
That might be some of the reason that botting is so rampent in game. It kills me to see trains of toons running to a guard to suicide and no GM takes any action against them, and they use the same pathing points over and over so you know its not someone there makeing it run.
Oh, please do show me the link for that article, but you won't be able to because it does not exist, and if it does, you must have not read it well or misunderstood what it was saying.
First off, it is their game and they can make any rules they want, and if those rules are broken, they can ban. How anyone can even begin to believe they cannot tell players how to play this game is simply, mind numbing...
Second, don't you think something like that would have been, well, huge? Oh let me guess, you were the only one who plays lineage2 who read the article, yeah ok. Please.
1. TERMS OF AGREEMENT
(a) Terms of Agreement. NC Interactive offers to allow you to play its multi-player online computer game “Lineage II” conditioned on your agreement to all of the terms and conditions contained in this Agreement...
They can do what they want as far as banning goes, but banning innocent people could be some sort of legal issue if the person that was banned could prove he was banned w/o just cause I suppose. Simply put, if NC cannot have rules that players have to abide by, lol, wow the utter chaos, this game would be unplayable, and not enjoyable to play at all. It's bad enough as it is now....
It is not the greatest example but if you come into a bar I work at, I have the right to not serve you for whatever reason I like. You can [censored] and whine, cry and moan, nothing you can do about it though. Why? It's called private property. You are there because we have permitted you to step through the doors. Since it is private property, we hold the rights to do as we see fit.
Same with NC. This is their game, they hold the rights. If they wanted to make a rule that said you could not play lineage2 while wearing a green shirt, they could do so. While that would be impossible to prove, if they did in fact come to your house and saw you play lineage2 while wearing a green shirt, yeah, they could ban you because you broke a rule they made.
I just edited my previous post and put the month, it is part of there 6 month online gameing study. Read it, before you start posting that drivel to me and if I missread it I stand corrected.
Yes I also expect the online game lawyers to post there drivel about EULA and such, just read the article before you start posting your EULA knowledge. Also note that the hearing did not take place in the US. Iam not saying it would happen here in the US, but there is a presadent now.......
Everyone wants top stuff, but not everyone is supposed to have it. Only players that put in a lot of effort and teamwork (or very lucky gamblers) are supposed to achieve the top end gear.
But EVERYONE still wants it, driving prices up. Then the players that aren't supposed to have it use the high prices to justify cheating.
Anyone can have anything they want in this game if they just work at it. But many people are lazy.
Getting the good stuff in this game requires giving something up. Either time spent buying/selling/trading to make money, or slower leveling speed grouping dwarves, or time spent not EXPing to go raid.
There are a TON of cheaters in this game, and if not for them, there would be no farmers, and we'd all be happily PVPing in our theca sets, except for a small handful of top players.
Excellent post.
Back in c1/c2 5-25m was a lot of adena to buy. C3 it was no biggie for people to buy 150m, agrade helms ftw. Now it's normal for people to buy hundreds of millions, or billions of adena. There are a few people in a few clans on Lionna, who have bought billions of adena, just by themselves. This is well known by the people who play on our server.
I understand that there is no supply if there is no demand but w/o these people who ebay, there really would not be any farmers. The farmers are only here to make money off of those people who buy adena. Who is buying the adena? Players are. Why blame the farmers for the economy? Most of the time they have the cheapest items around, and of course a lot of the high grade expensive items that the average person decides they want, so what do they go do, buy tons of adena.
Players are to blame for what has happened. So many people buy adena it's beyond comprehension. Why people feel the need to cheat to get ahead in a game, is something I just cannot, and will not, ever understand. While it may be hard to know who has bought adena and who has not, you can blame the adena buyers for our ingame issues, not the farmers.
I just edited my previous post and put the month, it is part of there 6 month online gameing study. Read it, before you start posting that drivel to me and if I missread it I stand corrected.
Yes I also expect the online game lawyers to post there drivel about EULA and such, just read the article before you start posting your EULA knowledge. Also note that the hearing did not take place in the US. Iam not saying it would happen here in the US, but there is a presadent now.......
No, I am no online game lawyer, nor do I claim to know the L2 EULA off by heart. In fact, I don't know much about it at all, never read all of it.
I just read the article you posted and sorry, does not really have anything to do at all with botting which was mentioned in your OP.
"companies like NCsoft could no longer permanently suspend or seize gamers' accounts for a first offense of selling items"
Yeah that is in Korea, not here in NA. That has only to do with the sale of ingame items, has nothing to do with botting, nor did the article anywhere mention that NC could not ban for botting.
In fact, not much in your OP makes any sense now that I have read the article lol. You said in your OP that NC was taken to court because they had banned botters accounts and NC was found to have no say in how people play the game lol.
How does this sentence "companies like NCsoft could no longer permanently suspend or seize gamers' accounts for a first offense of selling items" make any sense in regards to your OP.
If drop rate is 1/1000 the price of the item will be lower than if the rate was 1/100000
Secondly, economy is bot/farmer driven
This is because bots/farmers control the majority of the supply chain (only a bot can colect 50.000 bones)
Thirdly, economy is player driven, because players also want, need, craft, sell and buy items.
The whole situation is more or less an Oligopoly (not a monopoly nor a completely competitive market)
And as we go to higher levels (A and S grade) then situation approaches more the Monopoly. Only farmers at that moment can supply S-grade items, so they control the market.
The whole picture.
NCSoft -> Bots/Farmers ->Players
What can the players do? I think they must unite for a while (big alliances can only do this) and try to change the mechanics of the economy. At least they may try ;)