I'm curious where the line is drawn for "price scamming" accusations?
Common sense tells me there is no line in this game or that the difference between taking advantage and making a profit is in the eye of the beholder.
On another website my dwarf was listed by someone as 'scamming' because i was offerring a product only at a high price which was "way over guide price". Okay--I see that person's opinion (although how a legitimate 'sell' shop can be a scam is beyond me--if u don't want to pay then u don't pay).
The 'guide' says a brig helm is worth like 180k or so--they sell on my server for over 2 million. Scamming? Animal bone sells for 100a or something like that in shops--folks on my server are selling for 1,500 EACH. Scamming? Dual Raids "in guide" are worth something like 4 million and change--they sell on my server for 13 million. Scamming?
I'm confused a bit--if you as player are Selling--the definition seems to be 'get most you can'. When that SAME player is buying--they post names of others on scam posts because asking price is higher than guide!!
This is similar to the whining we hear about soulshot prices...should dss be 11 or 12 or 13a? Some dwarf sells for 14a and he/she is a 'scammer'.....how can that be. If u don't want to buy the dss at 14 then don't buy it. Pay the port fee from where ever to Giran and buy it for 11a! If they are only dss left and you need it--then pay the 14a because it WAS market driven.
What does everyone think? What is price gouging (scamming) and what is just "good business"?
Good business is selling at what the market thinks is a good deal in terms of time+effort and is willing to pay for.
Scamming is selling things for prices which no-one in their right mind would buy, or tricking people in purchasing something at above the market value (see above).
2m is excessive for a brig helm (on Teon at least) although if I saw your shop, I wouldn't necessarily think you were scamming, I'd just think your economically ignorant :P If on the other hand, you're one of the legion who try to pass off Bone Helms as Brig helms, then you are indeed a scammer.
Don't know splatter. My clanmate told me that my dwarf was listed cause "price was so much higher than guide listing".
I'd like to hear the discussion on this forum of my question! Is it scamming if you ask MORE than what others ask? Yes/No/Why?
Since when is 'pricing over guide rates' a "scam"? I think scam is a SERIOUS charge to make--it equals "cheater" in my book.
Is everyone in game who tries to make extra adena a cheater?
I don't see it that way but am REAL curious about everyone else's opinion on the matter....
That's my understanding. I was "scamming" because my price was so far over "guide" (assuming prima--haha).
I don't want to give details cause I don't want everyone to undercut my price across my server in the next hour!!!
I still don't see how this is a SCAM....I didn't put price in sell shop announcemnt window and it really was the real product offerred for the price listed in the shop.
This guide thing is funny though..nothing 'crafted' and dammed few mats sell at 'guide prices'. Anyone wants to sell me brig helms for 180k I'll take 10 of them right now!!!!
Well if it makes you feel any better Brig Helms are selling for over 3mil on Gustin now. Sure I think these prices are a bit (or a lot) outrageous, but unless someone is trying to convince you that the product is something it isn't or vice/versa, it can hardly be called scamming.
About 2 weeks ago I stumbled upon someone in Giran selling D-cystals for 600a each. This isn't unheard of but is very rare and I noticed someone barely 10 ft. away buying D-Crystals for 650. I became wary and checked it out more closely, the guy who's shop message read, "Selling D-Crystals 600a each" was actually selling 600 D-Crystals at 1,200a each. That's a scam, a misrepresentation.
You were not scamming; someone is trying to shame you into lowering your price.
Scamming involves an element of trickery or falsehood. A scam results in the buyer not getting what they intended at the price they intended, based on what info the seller gave them.
If your shop said "Selling Uber-Item at 50,000a" and has the Uber-Item at 50,000a, it is not a scam (even is the usual price for an Uber-Item is 10,000a.) If your shop is selling an Ordinary-Item at 50,000a, or is selling the Uber-Item at 50,000,000a, it is a scam.
If someone buys from your shop and gets the item you said at the price you said, it is not a scam. (It may be a bad deal tho.)
I'll tell you, as long as you are not duplicitous in anyway, you should be able to charge whatever you want.
For the record, I always charge maximum or close to maximum price for anything I sell, within reason.
I say that because when C3 hit (I think it was C3) and they changed the recipe for DSS, I charged 12 per shot. Some people complained but I stuck to my price. However, some other dwarves wanted to charge 13 each and I felt that was going overboard and didn't want to take part in that type of price fixing.
But you are not a scammer if you over charge or charge high.
Well if it makes you feel any better Brig Helms are selling for over 3mil on Gustin now. Sure I think these prices are a bit (or a lot) outrageous, but unless someone is trying to convince you that the product is something it isn't or vice/versa, it can hardly be called scamming.
About 2 weeks ago I stumbled upon someone in Giran selling D-cystals for 600a each. This isn't unheard of but is very rare and I noticed someone barely 10 ft. away buying D-Crystals for 650. I became wary and checked it out more closely, the guy who's shop message read, "Selling D-Crystals 600a each" was actually selling 600 D-Crystals at 1,200a each. That's a scam, a misrepresentation.
I was labeled as a scammer by two people, for two different things. They were as follows.
1. I tried to sell a Falchion for 300k. Someone told me that it was CHEAPER IN SHOP. Then told me to go to Giran and look there, because the TAXES WERE LOWER. And I'M the scammer.
2. I tried to sell my old +3LXB for 4.5mil (which, if you think about it, it's roughly worth), and someone began Shouting "<Character Name> IS A SCAMMER, DON'T BUY FROM HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Neither of those instances were scams. Not one bit.
On the other end of the spectrum, however, someone OFFERED to pay me 800k for a Bronze Top, Bottom, Bone Shield and a Falchion. I refused, and told him it was worth about 450k, to which he agreed.
If I'd taken that trade (for the 800k) would THAT have been a scam, since I wasn't ASKING that price? No. Well, I don't think so, at least.
Each item has two values: an open market value, and its NPC value.
The NPC value is used every time the game has to evaluate an item's worth on its own: when an item is crystallised, you will receive crystals based on its NPC value. When you farm for the manor system, your reward will be calculated based on those materials' NPC value. When you sell anything to the NPC shop, you will receive money based on its NPC value. When you craft an item, you will have to spend materials the NPC value of which will be close to the NPC value of the finished item.
Then there is the market price. It is determined by the actual difficulty of acquiring an item, the demand for that item and to some degree players manipulating the market.
When pricing a sell store, it is the market price that should be the guide, not the NPC value. Let me give you a few examples to illustrate this:
The Blueprint for the 11th Floor of the Tower of Insolence is extremely rare and may take weeks or even months to find, depending on the circumstances under which you hunt. The NPCs (and with them guides), however, believe that this item is worth no more than a measly little silver nugget, of which a level 20 dwarf can easily acquire more than 40 in a single hour.
While I'm all for TOI 11 BPs selling for 400a, I don't think it's happening. So tell those people to stick it and stop attempting to bully people into lowering their prices to some which are not reasonable given the market situation now - players can't fix it after all, so they have to adjust to it. Telling people are worth their NPC price, unlike charging according to the market situation, is a scam.
PS: And of course, as others said - even if you were overcharging, you'd not be a scammer. You'd be waiting for an ebayer to come along and help even out the economy into the pockets of non-buyers.
Just get used to it and not hung up on it. Scammer is a (very) overused word that anyone in Lineage2 uses when they are insulted by someone's pricing.
If you're talking about the guide I think you are, then you are being labeled a scammer because you're way out of the range of recent sales on the same item. 30% over average pricing isn't gonna get you on the scammers list; 300% might.
I'll provide "full disclosure now" and you all can decide.
About a week ago I'm running to Dion WH--a toon is selling "proof of blood"--I hadn't seen that for sale b4, I'm a dwarf so I checked it out. The asking price was "450,000 adena"!!!!! I was shocked. A while later it appeared to sell!!!!
A couple days later ANOTHER toon in Dion has a proof of blood selling for 425k!!!!! Again, later that evening I noticed it sold!!
I had 4 of the dammed things in my warehouse--so I opened a sell shop and put this in annoucement "Proof of Blood/Recs/Dye+1Men". In the shop I listed the proof of bloods at 325,000a each (hey, all I knew was what I saw).
Both sold that night!!!!! I'm thinking, wow--maybe I underpriced them. Maybe they sell for more. I retrieve the other two from warehouse and using almost same sell announcement I put two more in at 325k each. Have sold 1 those so far.
Last night clannie tells me I'm infamous on a website as a 'scammer'.
Okay.....but if I am it was ****ed innocent. Looked to me like market set a price I was UNDER.
I'll freely admit I don't know what they sell for--maybe 20k in giran and I just haven't noted it. But if that's the case, how come I sold 3 of them at higher price? How come those other players sold them for even more?
I guess I saw this as being opportunistic--not cheating.
proof of blood? lmao a proof of blood is priceless. It is used to make a lvl 3 clan... They drop like 50% of the time from bloddy queens... if u go to fg u will see them just littered on the ground... HOWEVER some people are lazy or don't know where to get a proof of blood. How lazy they are determines how much a PoB is worth. If the time it takes to port to fg and kill a bloody queen is worth 325k... then you sold for the right price...
Anybody crying over a proof of blood is an idiot... and now the website with the scammers is a joke... what website is it btw?
I am very careful to throw the word scammer around, even when I see it blatant in front of me.
What you did does not fit the definition of scammer. It's possible that the people buying from you do not know the true value (or lack thereof) of a proof of blood.
What I see as a scam is something I saw last night in Gludin. A pair of dwarves set up with buy shops advertising "DSS/Potions/Cheap" and "BDSS Cheap." I looked, and it was something like 3a for DSS, 6a for BSPSD, and 19a for Greater Heal Potions.
Now, I also saw that someone had set up a sell shop nearby with "Yellow means BUY" in the title.
Bravo to the seller. Shame on the buyers. Those, I say, are scams.
Good business is selling at what the market thinks is a good deal in terms of time+effort and is willing to pay for.
Scamming is selling things for prices which no-one in their right mind would buy, or tricking people in purchasing something at above the market value (see above).
2m is excessive for a brig helm (on Teon at least) although if I saw your shop, I wouldn't necessarily think you were scamming, I'd just think your economically ignorant :P If on the other hand, you're one of the legion who try to pass off Bone Helms as Brig helms, then you are indeed a scammer.
2m for brig helm and 13m for dual raids are BARGAINS on Devianne. mostly, the prices are at least double that all the time.
and thats NO + on either.
scamming = advertising brig helm, with brig helm price but selling bone helm.
scamming = selling raid*spirits but advertising and pricing as dual raids.
scamming = selling NGSS labelled ***.
scamming = many things, actually. see the thread stickied in the guides forum for a good list of easy to pull off scams.
lol. Somone in Giran was WTB Proof of Blood, so I grabbed 1 out of 40 I have in wh, told him I had one for sale, put it up for 100K in my sell store, and poof, he bought it right away and say TY. ;)
If he had asked to lower the price, I would have sold it to him for 1a.
2m for brig helm and 13m for dual raids are BARGAINS on Devianne. mostly, the prices are at least double that all the time.
and thats NO + on either.
scamming = advertising brig helm, with brig helm price but selling bone helm.
scamming = selling raid*spirits but advertising and pricing as dual raids.
scamming = selling NGSS labelled ***.
scamming = many things, actually. see the thread stickied in the guides forum for a good list of easy to pull off scams.
Actually raid*raid and raid*spirit are worth exactly the same, since they have the same crystal value and can be exchanged for each other for free at mammon BS (both are 190 patk duals).
But apart from that I agree - scamming is offering one thing in the shop title and selling something which is worth less, e.g. offering brig helm and selling bone helm. Just selling something for far more than it is actually worth, but not misrepresenting what item you actually are selling is not a scam. It is just selling at a high (bad) price.
This is a Cut-Throat game. As some say, you do what you can to survive. Surviving includes things like: Overpricing(when selling), Underpricing(when buying), PKing, Griefing, Training, Scamming.
This is not a nice world in Lineage 2. Hell, even in real life, you get nothing out of being "Nice". Oh yeah, you might get an ocasional and worthless pat on the back, for being nice, but being NICE, certainly doesn't help you pay the bills, etc.
So in any given situation, someone comes out a Winer, and someone comes out a Looser.
A UE Hom with Acu costs what 9mil, add +5 or +6 EWCs amd its around 14mil. Add another +5 and the price jumps to 185mil. Even though it only cost you 19mil to get that, that's called scamming in my book.
A UE Hom with Acu costs what 9mil, add +5 or +6 EWCs amd its around 14mil. Add another +5 and the price jumps to 185mil. Even though it only cost you 19mil to get that, that's called scamming in my book.
Noooo. That's called "Convenience" and "Being Safe"
Go get 11 EW-C's and 1 homunk, and good luck on making that +11 all in 1 go, and all on 1 sword.
By the way, tell me what server you play on, so I can do there and roll a Necromonger. With a +6 Homunk only being 14kk on your server, that is Dirt cheap.
A UE Hom with Acu costs what 9mil, add +5 or +6 EWCs amd its around 14mil. Add another +5 and the price jumps to 185mil. Even though it only cost you 19mil to get that, that's called scamming in my book.
Noooo. That's called "Convenience" and "Being Safe"
Go get 11 EW-C's and 1 homunk, and good luck on making that +11 all in 1 go, and all on 1 sword.
By the way, tell me what server you play on, so I can do there and roll a Necromonger. With a +6 Homunk only being 14kk on your server, that is Dirt cheap.
A UE Hom with Acu costs what 9mil, add +5 or +6 EWCs amd its around 14mil. Add another +5 and the price jumps to 185mil. Even though it only cost you 19mil to get that, that's called scamming in my book.
Like pointed out before, it's only scamming if the seller promises thing a, but only delivers b, with the purpose of confusing the customer to believe he is getting a still.
Asking ridiculous amounts of adena for an item is not a scam. It's overpricing, aimed at the people who've bought enough adena to make a continuous trail from TI to Goddard from it, and greedy. But it's not scamming, since you're still getting what you're offered, if you're willing to pay that much. A scam (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=scam) requires a purposeful act of deceit from one participant.
Hell, even in real life, you get nothing out of being "Nice". Oh yeah, you might get an ocasional and worthless pat on the back, for being nice, but being NICE, certainly doesn't help you pay the bills, etc.
I pay the bills just fine and I am "nice".
Until someone acts like they are an entitled *** and then I open up a whole can of Sovrath whoopass, with adjectives and verbs and an occassional noun or adverb.