LOL I keep hearing how WS is so good in pvp now. Well if warsmiths are so godly in pvp why does everyone roll out nukers ?? [flaming deleted by Tisirin] I have a ws and I can't beat nukers 10 levels below me even if I and my golem are fully buffed against a nuker with just SE buffs. Nukers are pc's and I guarantee you 90% of them know to kill the golem first. So you are probably going to say 'learn to play your class!!' like every nuker on these boards says (bcoz you're afraid of the much deserved future nerf) well FYI I only really have 1 skill, that's stun and my ws will rarely make it anywhere close to range to use stun.
Yesterday I tried to pk an afk SH, he came back to his computer (must have been almost dead) slept my golem and I almost instantly, used his life leech crap, 2 shotted my golem, then my prophet then proceeded to hit me for:
1800
1800
1800
7400
When I was hitting him it was like:
238
304
172
235
With a **** axe at point blank range on an afk robe wearing mage.
There was minimal level difference between us and I didn't even get the chance to BSOE because that last crit. Archers aren't as bad, with an archer at least I have the possibility of escaping by using cp pots and hp potions but they're still a problem.
Then there's non-pvp skills. My WS is supposed to be unique because it can craft stuff well guess what? I've crafted maybe 3 items since I created it (now I'm almost lvl 70) because everyone just buys their crap from raid farmers (gg with raid bosses, nerf craft completely) or crafts it themselves from private creation stores! Also the adena is so cheap from online stores & there seems to be no shame in this anymore however I don't like paying more than my monthly fee to play a game so this means my WS is poor. In fact I think I'd be far better off if I made a dagger because then I could XP without soulshots. Even spamming ss I can't efficiently kill 1x HP mobs without downtime and the golem is hella expensive.
So what should I do? Re-roll? I guess that's the only solution however I would hope that NCSoft would have some sympathy for us melee & gimped classes and fix it themselves. Virtual goods sellers and bots might be a problem out of their control however this surely isn't and it's time for these things to be fixed so the last 200 hours or so I've spent playing actually might mean something and don't start with this C5 crap, we all know approximately what % of people actually 'play' healer classes.
So if you have a nuker I guess now it's your turn. Come here and tell me why my class is not underpowered.
Tell me why you can two shot every mob with no downtime.
Tell me why you can kill people without even being hit once.
Please explain to me how come at sieges us melee are almost useless and mages have virtually no weakness.
Tell my why the mage SA's are 10x better than the melee ones.
Educate me as to why you have blessed spiritshots which makes you almost invincible in 1 vs 1 pvp.
I would like to know why mage skills 76+ don't have negative effects, such as lower mdef and pdef like my 76+ skills do.
Why does zerk lower mdef, now us melee have to gimp our only defence against mages if we are to catch them.
Tell me why 90% of my server are mages or archers.
Then you can explain to me why you re-rolled nuker in the first place if melee are so **** uber.
As a warsmith your role is making stuff. So what happens the warsmith class suddenly gets more uber fight stuff then does that mean the other classes should be able to craft? As in dwarven craft. I just don't understand why people keep comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari and then complain why the Ferrarri keeps winning the race.
I just don't understand why people keep comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari and then complain why the Ferrarri keeps winning the race.
Um...this is a pretty dense viewpoint. Who in their right mind would take a Yugo over a Ferrari? If it was 20x harder to exp a nuker, this would make sense (IE ferrari costs more). However, Nukers are BY FAR easier to level. So now we are talking about a Honda Civic and a Ferrari both at equal prices. Hmmmmm, and we wonder why people keep rerolling Ferrari.
NC either needs to make Nukers WAY harder to level (need more XP per level) or they need to make all the other classes stronger while nerfing (the crap out of) nukers.
This is a multifaceted game and everyone has a role. My comparison is to the extreme and the point is to show the silliness in it. You obviously agree it's a silly comparison. So I don't understant why someone would want to compare the killing ability of a warsmith to that of a nuker. So why are offensive mages called nukers? Because they obliterate targets.
I've been a nuker since day one. This was before blessed SPS, acumen weapons, or any of that even existed. Not all of us are FOTM. As a matter of fact, I had to make an alt gladiator so I could use the mannor system. We're not the best at everything. Being mad because you attacked someone, and they killed you with ease is sensless. Be a warsmith. Go craft some stuff, make some $ and put a bounty on his head. Don't complain because someone beat you at something they are good at. It's already well known that the pvp system is getting revamped in C5 anyways. Coming here isn't gonna do you any good for a problem like this. Either roll yourself a FOTM Necro or be happy that you have your own style and want to play a character different than everybody elses.
Well, I'm a temporary nuker. Have to start as one to become a Summoner, and eventually, my personal spells will SUCK. So, smile. I'm not going Sorceress, so I don't think I'm a flavor of the month.
Look at new C5 PvP chart. You're classified as warrior. Nukers are "offensive mages" and archers are "rogues". They are *supposed* to have an advantage over you. Come C5, make sure to snatch a "defensive mage" before engaging an "offensive mage", or "knight" when you plan to fight "rogues". one on one, stick to "knights" (except DAs with their panther, you should be able to actually kill a tank) and "defensive mages" (true you have no skills to catch them, but enemy running away is enemy who lost the encounter)
NCsoft is ridicules if they think rock paper scissors is balance. So melee's only get to beat buffers? That what? Like 5% of the L2 population? Buffers can now beat nukers? Again 5%!
They are just cementing nukers domination. Claiming it's balance. I bet there talking about un-tattooed classes with no SA ether. Of coarse mages get the best SA and only nukers have no restrictions on tattoos.
Tell me NCsoft what is the point of not letting melee's alter men? It's the one magic stat they could use. Well if I ever get the chance to make a software company it would be my MMO>NCsoft.
As a warsmith your role is making stuff. So what happens the warsmith class suddenly gets more uber fight stuff then does that mean the other classes should be able to craft? As in dwarven craft. I just don't understand why people keep comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari and then complain why the Ferrarri keeps winning the race.
every class can craft just as well if not better than a WS
its called private craft and its what destroyed warsmiths
im in the same boat as you man
after playing PTS it became painfully obvious that what i really wanted was a necro after seeing the 76+ dwarf skills it became even more obvious
so i came back to the live server and started grinding like crazy
now since C4 ive spent over 130 million adena grinding my ws and im nearly there
in a couple more lvls i get to be the necro i always dreamed of and then i dont have to worry about adena/xp again
here's my suggestion
if you dont wanna reroll park your *** in giran or preferably aden
afk buy some A crys and craft A-SS non stop for a month or so
since that is the only effective way to use your dwarven skills to make adena, try to make the most of it by undercutting the farmers and buying crystals as cheap as possible
hopefully after that month you will have enough adena to make it to 75 and sub whatever is FOTM at that time
once adena is not an issue try to convince a BD to try duoing with you
it wont be easy because most classes think we are gimp but a few mins in party with you spamming the golem and he should stick around ^^
I know the profit margins are small, but b-ss and d-ss is in short supply. Some times c-ss. I know it's true on Sieg and Dev.
I thought about leveling a WS on sieg before I rerolled to get money and have a crafter. I think if you keep your recipe book full of things that are rare and have a limited demand you can make money in a private craft.
Plated leather boots, SLS and caliburs are hard crafts to find. Get every recipe you can and keep a few slots open. You might find a rare occasion to craft some thing strange like a Stick of faith.
Now that A grade is becoming mainstream D grade is outrageous. 1m for items that complete a set like manti boots. If you can get the parts craft and sell.
I think if you keep your recipe book full of things that are rare and have a limited demand you can make money in a private craft.
works at lower lvls
at higher lvls a recipie could cost you 10+ mil for a kick *** craft fee of 100k
works well for anyone who doesnt leave town
or kill mobs
who has billions of adena to invest
who has hundreds of ppl gathering recipies for him
i think you know the ppl i mean
Sorry, but that was a pathetic post. Nobody ever said WSes are godly in PvP - and neither are they supposed to be. They do well anyway, considering their main occupation is CRAFTING, and not fighting.
If you wanted to PvP, then there are quite few worse classes you could have chosen. Heck, I would rather PvP with a Prophet or Elder, then with a craftsman.
If you don't craft and make tons of adena, just want to fight, then face it - you just picked a veeery wrong class.
Dwarfs sacrafice their fighting ability for their unique ability to spoil/craft. What is left is a gimped fighter with mediocre defence, high hp and low dmg. WSes are lucky enough to somewhat offset this weakness with their creations (which are nice DD with the shots).
The same way a nuker sacrifices his defence for superior offence. I's true that their offence might be overpowering, but they are still very fragile (apart from necros, that is). Just ask archers, who can two-shot them...
Sorry, but the fact that a WS SHOULDN'T beat a nuker is just a fundamental game design. This simply isn't meant to happen.
Dwarf=craftsman, mediocre defensive unit
<<< nuker=high powered offensive unit with range advantage
Sorry, but that was a pathetic post. Nobody ever said WSes are godly in PvP - and neither are they supposed to be. They do well anyway, considering their main occupation is CRAFTING, and not fighting.
If you wanted to PvP, then there are quite few worse classes you could have chosen. Heck, I would rather PvP with a Prophet or Elder, then with a craftsman.
If you don't craft and make tons of adena, just want to fight, then face it - you just picked a veeery wrong class.
Dwarfs sacrafice their fighting ability for their unique ability to spoil/craft. What is left is a gimped fighter with mediocre defence, high hp and low dmg. WSes are lucky enough to somewhat offset this weakness with their creations (which are nice DD with the shots).
The same way a nuker sacrifices his defence for superior offence. I's true that their offence might be overpowering, but they are still very fragile (apart from necros, that is). Just ask archers, who can two-shot them...
Sorry, but the fact that a WS SHOULDN'T beat a nuker is just a fundamental game design. This simply isn't meant to happen.
Dwarf=craftsman, mediocre defensive unit
<<< nuker=high powered offensive unit with range advantage
[edited by Tisirin], you know what I did make my dwarf because I like crafting but crafting these days is a waste of time, for the reasons I mentioned in the origional post you called pathetic without reading properly (obviously).
Without craft dwarves are useless because they weren't supposed to be fighters but crafting sucks now so us dwarves are left with a totally gimp piece of crap class which is completely useless due to the virtual goods resellers covering EVERY SINGLE aspect of the economy and the way any other class makes just as much money from xping as warsmiths crafting now, if not more.
Oh and tell me why you re-rolled spellhowler on teon instead of playing a melee.
Reroll already, so we can stop listening to your whine ;)
I'm an overpowered archer, the only weakness a mage has is my weapon, arrows. There is a 77 Fortune Seeker in my clan, and has become quite respected for his pvp skills. He isn't bad in 1v1, but in group PVP he does his job excellently. Stunning people, especially healers. You're not a lean mean killing machine, play to your strengths, WS is supposed to be better than BH in pvp after all.
FYI I didn't reroll. I play SH because I love magic. And I wanted easy PvE too. I like high damage as well. Even with SH I don't really know if I'll ever see "endgame" content. But I admit, this way it's at least a bit closer.
If I were to reroll a FOTM pwnage class, I would have been a necro.
The only thing, that a WS can craft for profit is Soulshots, Spiritshots and Blessed Spiritshots.
Anything else, they would need to craft roughly 100 times to break even.
Non-Crafters think a craft shop offering some B or A-grade weapon for 250k is expensive ? Well, did you ever think about what the Warsmith had to pay to get the recipe ? Warsmiths got no chance to collect the recipes on their own.
And when I hear, that a Caster sacrificed their defense for great offense, I dunno, if I should cry or laugh. What defense did you sacrifice ? Sleep is the best defense you have. Armor does not make up defense. In terms of PvP it is absolutely the same for all melee, if they run around naked or with heavy armor. The casters will finish them off just as easily.
And in terms of casting defense, it is the casters, who got a better defense. They can wear the exact same jewelry as all fighters, but they also get "Anti Magic" skill, which increases Magic Defense.
So do not tell me, you did sacrifice anything with you dark twelve.
Sleep does not work in PvP ??? What kind of game are you playing ?
There are dozens of threads all accross the lineage2 boards of all countries, crying about BSPS-Sleep working even accross a 20 lvl difference and through unsealed majestic jewelry.
Oh and another "defense" of nukers is, that there is hardly any melee fighter, who can close up on them, before they drop dead.
sleep, indeed, doesnt work well through mental shield (again, it can be self-buffed).
but slow is a real instant win against melee. (no buff against, no cure)
I play a game where Mental Aegis IV is quite a common buff that makes you almost immune to sleep. And you don't need neither majectic jewlery, be it unsealed or not, nor NM set bonus for that.
This is a multiplayer, group game, remember?
O rly ? If it was we would see ppl LFG and find groups ourselve to level. We don't. On Sieg you can open the Party Matching tool at any time and you're sure to see it empty.
O rly ? If it was we would see ppl LFG and find groups ourselve to level. We don't. On Sieg you can open the Party Matching tool at any time and you're sure to see it empty.
How about we (the dwarves) give up our insane defense abilities for some offense ?
I would gladly have a skill that converts P-Def to P-Atk at any time on a 1:1 ratio or maybe a skill like "Berserk rage", where the dwarf does 5000 Damage to every player within 500 range, including themself ? Of come on, you cannot be against such a skill, as the Dwarf would be sacrificing so much....
Yes it is. If you can't find groups - well, then I guess it's your problem.
And I don't use the Party Matching "tool" either.
Anyway I am slowly getting fed up with this forum. A bit overly monotematic. Mostly a ton of people who non-stop whine how overpowered nukers are and how their class is gimp and useless.
Go reroll a nuker or archer or quit if you hate it so much. Let others play.
Yes it is. If you can't find groups - well, then I guess it's your problem.
And I don't use the Party Matching "tool" either.
Anyway I am slowly getting fed up with this forum. A bit overly monotematic. Mostly a ton of people who non-stop whine how overpowered nukers are and how their class is gimp and useless.
Go reroll a nuker or archer or quit if you hate it so much. Let others play.
Ok, I'll say this slowly. Nukers Dont Need Groups. They get more effective XP solo than they do in a group, and with a buff pet they can go from 1-75 in a matter of months using the same exact gear they used at level 40. A melee character takes much longer to level due to the fact that a) we have to be up close and personal in order to kill and b) it takes us 4-5x as long per kill. Melee classes cannot solo effectively at all. So yeah, this game is unbalanced in favor of nukers. And thats just PVE.
In PVP nukers are even more unbalanced. A necro can gank an entire party of equal level melee/support, and they are hardly getting nerfed at all in C5 (Mass Curse Gloom?!). SH can sleep/slow and kite a melee to death. SPS can get INSANE cast speed and fire off 3 nukes/second. The only thing that stops a nuker in PVP is being OOM.
The game is not balanced. PVE and PVP, this game is largely in favor of nukers. If you are sick of people complaining, maybe you should leave. I promise that no one will miss you.
Considering the length that slow lasts, it's useful to have the cure - and of course, since the game is so vastly about crits, it makes little sense not to try to get a warlock into your melee group. :p
The fact that the class is rare (and/or refusing to group) has much to do with the way its players were treated for three chronicles. ;) I'm sure it's a lesson to be nicer to TKs or Pals in case something similar happens to them.
Go reroll a nuker or archer or quit if you hate it so much. Let others play.
I let everyone play. I never screamed for a nerf of anyone. But I want to be able to play too, with the class that I chose.
And as it is right now, my class is the #1 bot class, and the legit players of my class are trying their best to reach 75 to get away from this class as fast as possible. That cannot and should not be the purpose of the class.
So until that is changed, I will continue to voice my opinion as I see fit, in the best interest of the dwarven race.
If some nuker is fed up with it, I couldn't care less.
Yes, SHs don't need groups for xp/adena efficiency. They may even be counter-productive for that.
But at least I personally do need them... to... uhm... not die of boredom grinding?
If you find solo grind nice, then I pity you.
Oh and about the balance. I don't think I know a game that is "balanced". Actually I know plenty of games where mages rock much more then here. The only unusual and new thing is how strong archers are in L2.
I've edited several posts for inappropriate language and for flaming. You folks know the rules. That kind of behavior is against the forum Rules of Conduct.
You can have an argument or discussion without flaming. Please keep this in mind in the future.
Well, whatever any nuker says about it, the fact remains that nukers are wayyy overpowered. It is allmost impossible, I repeat, IMPOSSIBLE to beat them if you're a melle char. Well, you can probaly beat them 4 or 5 times in a 100 tries, but that doesn't mean they can be beat. It just means you got very, very lucky. They have not sacrificed anything to get their insane attack power. If they did, a melle should be able to 2-hit them to death. And as far as the rock-paper-sciscors system is concerned, even if we could looked upon the game from that perspective, its just not true. Well, it would be true if the rock-paper-sciscors game allowed you to hold all 3 at the same time...
The reality of the problem is this. Lineage2 is a PvP game(and yes, I really hate that statement). To me, this means ALL classes should have some value in PvP. Currently, the only time a BH becomes even slightly useful in PvP is after 76 when you get Armor Crush, and can turn the skills you've been getting since 30 into skills that have a point in PvP. The Warsmith(you people seem to miss the WAR in front of Smith) has the golem, which while nice, is hardly enough to make up for the complete lack of Mdef passives or self buffs that almost every other class gets.
Everytime someone laments that thier melee character is unable to even hold thier own against nukers they have significant levels on, the same battle cry always issues forth. "Reroll a Nuker or Archer, noob". None of us are screaming for our Dwarves or other melee classes to be PvP gods, we just want to have a point again. I have been both slept and rooted by toons 30 levels below me(Yes, before they did second class change) with full +3 Majestic Jewlery. I have died to 4x nukers in my late 60s. Sleep, slow till it lands, then nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke nuke and Im gone. "Get a bow!" tried it, sleep nuke sleep nuke sleep nuke dead. Look at the vortex spells compared to any skill melee get after 76, all my skills combined dont add up to what a vortex can do. Theres no weapon that boosts my attack speed enough to make a difference. Theres no skills at all in my arsenal that give me a chance to survive in anything but Dwarf vs Tank fights. Oh, I can carry 500 CP pots, good, I can die AND waste a ton of money in the process. I can lug around your extra shots and arrows.
We WANT balance. We WANT to be able to use the classes we enjoy playing on a somewhat level playing field. Currently, its just not possible.
I thnk the real issue of imbalance rises only because of the open pvp rules. I don't believe true balance in an online game can ever occur. But, I do believe some things can be done to get very close, close enough to make open pvp workable among all classes. The trend in L2 is looking more like some of the older online games, i.e., UO for example. It's becomming item-based, and less skill based. You see level 15 chars attacking level 20-25 chars and beating them. You ask how can they do that...oh, the level 15 is spamming quick heals. So he's someone's alt with lots of adena to waste. That's example of being item-based. Many of you remember when online games first began - Ping time made pvp-gods out of several players. Ping was just another form of havign the best "item".
We have now introduced "Hero" into the game. Reminds me of the old Jedi system in SWG. Let me kill your bounty-hunter, then you can kill mine and our Jedi becomes a member of the council with greater skill enhancement. And any SWG players here can attest how fast the game went downhill after that.
So what is the solution. Balance damage dealing. Don't necessarily nerf anything to do this. I hate the trend when nerfing (and i define that as reducing the skill of a class) is used. Instead, begin tweaking defensive passive skills - like add the abililty to resist sleeping and paralysis, reduce the chance of crit-hits landing, etc. It wouldn't surprise me any to hear NC-Soft announce a non-pvp server in the future - the history of online gaming almost makes it a given.
L2 may be for the "hard core" now, but the name is NC-Soft, not NC-Hard, and the it's about their bottom-line. What makes it go up is what will happen.