Yesterday, i was in heretic catacomb to help some friends with my shillien knight, lvl 60. Of course, everything was dark blue to me.
Then, a couple people passing by aggroed one of the mobs. I used aggression, and the mob didn't noticed! Used aggression again, and the mob just wasn't paying attention to me at all!!! Finally we had to kill the mob.
Since C4, i had several such experiences like this one where the mobs were just not responding at all to hate skills.
So, what's the deal with hate skills? These are the only skills that make tanks somewhat useful, and they don't work anymore against mobs?
It has happened to white/green mobs also on a couple occasions. And no, it definitely wasn't missing before C4. You mean that it is normal to miss often hate on a freaking keltir? The mob should die from heart failure when i hate him!
Something have changed on hate in C4, i had suspiscions before, but yesterday it was so blatant that it is no suspiscion anymore.
And btw, hate is a physical skill, i don't remember having ever failed a sting/powerstrike skill. Physical skills never fail (and can't be evaded either for that matter).
I had a similar experience a couple of times now. My prophet was killed because a mob got on her and just wouldn't get off. I used Hate several times and was whacking it with Shots and it still wouldn't stop hitting her. She hadn't done anything, no buffing, no healing, nothing.
I had the same thing happen again later with my EE.
I know they mentioned something about improved mob AI and I wondered at the time if this was part of that or some weird bug.
I had a similar experience a couple of times now. My prophet was killed because a mob got on her and just wouldn't get off. I used Hate several times and was whacking it with Shots and it still wouldn't stop hitting her. She hadn't done anything, no buffing, no healing, nothing.
I had the same thing happen again later with my EE.
I know they mentioned something about improved mob AI and I wondered at the time if this was part of that or some weird bug.
I, too, think this might have something to do with the "improved mob AI". For example, I remember reading about mobs which "hate" healers. And that fits well to the experience I had when I did the "700 mobs" part of the 3rd class change quest together with clannies. For that part, you have to kill the Scarabs/Ants near Shrine of the Loyal. My clannies nuked the mobs, and I sat there to regen mp - and very often the mobs which already had been nuked on and were on their way to the player who attacked them just turned around, ran towards me (remember I was still sitting, doing absolutely nothing) and attacked me.
And I had the same experience once or twice with raid bosses who suddenly turned around, killed a healer (who really had not done much healing at all and definitely could not have received aggro via that) and then went back to the tank.
Also, a few times since C4 we had mobs who aggroed on one party member and you just could not get them off that player again, no matter how much nuking and hating you did. I know about the feature of e.g. the minions in the Beast Lord groups who aggro the one who kills the Beast Lord himself and then cannot be hated away again, but these were single mobs who just decided "I want to kill THAT player now, and you cannot do anything about it!".
I did enough lowbie raids to notice this too. I wasn't healing much when the boss started hitting me and even with the whole party pounding on it and the tank hating it, it beat on me until I dropped :/ Way to discourage healers, ncsoft.
I also had it happen at Lord Shax, I was playing my bishop and an EE and although the EE was barely healing it aggro'd her and killed her but ignored all the nukers blasting away at it. Pretty lame.
This is one reason why I personally was always afraid of the "improved AI". I don't want to fight mobs that kill healers regardless of what you do to them.
This is one reason why I personally was always afraid of the "improved AI". I don't want to fight mobs that kill healers regardless of what you do to them.
This is where I disagree with all of you. Improved AI is always good. Never bad. Mobs are supposed to pick on the weak ones first, and especially healers who heal the strong ones. I did this raid last night and for the first time I was very impressed. Something definetely changed and I'm happy. The raid boss kept hiting the tank, the nukers were nuking, and the healers were healing. Then the nuker ran out of mp and sat down. After about 1 minute and without anyone suspecting, the raid boss stopped attacking the tank and went after the nuker. Killed her in about 3 shots even with the bishop spamming heal. Then it went after the healer. And the tank kept hating it but it did not work. The funny thing is that after the nuker got rezed, the raid boss went after the tank again. And when the nuker sat down, the raid boss stoped and charged at the nuker again. He killed her 4 or 5 times by the time the raid was over. I was very impressed though I was mad that poor nuker lost so much exp.
But the point is that I see an improvement at least in raid bosses. Another example being another one that I tried doing 2 nights ago. It was 2 full parties and we all died at least 2 times :D. The boss kept paralyzing people over and over. And as soon as it started fading away he charged back at those being paralyzed and redid it. It was very impessing. Makes you think the next time you try. I hope this smarter AI gets even smarter in C5.
Its really an Improvement of Mob AI to kill someone who doesent really participate in the Fight. Seeems more like go to the lowest on the aggrolist - Kill.
As a Raidboss i wold run to the Nukers and squisch their unprotected Bodys, forcing the healers to go OOM trying to safe them :D
But how is this any fun for those getting killed over and over?
My point is that although I do like challenges, it's hard enough now to find people who play healers as their main. If there are no measures to counter this kind of death, you are going to find healers much more reluctant to fork over that XP loss.
Ok I see your point, but your misssing mine. NCSoft sees healers as being in the same boat as nukers. So whenever they do something to weaken nukers, healers get impacted as well (Sleep Nerf).
Making a smarter AI will impact nukers as they cant always feel safe when tank is attacking mob for 20 damage and nuker does 2000. With a smarter AI, the mob will go after the nuker, or in your case healer if your healing a tank. It makes sense so why not be that way...
I do see your point. I just don't happen to think you see the larger picture.
I love challenges in the game and if the Mob AI was smarter but yet a clever party could still keep everyone alive, I would think that was great. But if you have one class the mob kills no matter what the others do, that's not going to be fun for that class (whether it's healer or nuker or tank or DD) and people stop playing when it gets to be no fun for too long.
The problem is that it appears there is no counter measure.
That's very true, but things as they currently are is no good either. If an old lady beat on you with a stick, and a world class archer shot you with arrows which would you go after? The old lady :p?
Hate should not be full proof and it's not. But it still works most of the time. Besides a healer has self defensive skills to keep the mob away from it when it charges at it (sleep, root, fear, etc.). And if there is no danger of dying then I don't see the point of playing one in the first place.
And besides I don't think that there is one class the mob kills no matter what. It should be the class that annoys it the most. Tank, Archer, Nuker, Healer. Whichever it is. If a mob is beating on a healer and the tank uses hate, sometimes it goes after it, sometimes it doesn't. Same with the nuker. Things should not be 100% predictable in situations like that, or in any other.
Nice, only I get the feeling it's undermining the reasons for tanks to even exist, if they start failing at what they are made for - defending others and taking hits. I don't thinks tanks really need such a harsh nerf.
The new AI has had a built in LC hate since C3, every **** raid boss would ignore the 70-100+ other players, far better equipped and doing more damage than me, and run after me.
Making a smarter AI will impact nukers as they cant always feel safe when tank is attacking mob for 20 damage and nuker does 2000. With a smarter AI, the mob will go after the nuker, or in your case healer if your healing a tank. It makes sense so why not be that way...
The problem is that while you would think this should make nukers and archers try to manage their dps better, it's just more efficient for the party to replace the tank with somebody else who does more damage or can heal.
Making a smarter AI will impact nukers as they cant always feel safe when tank is attacking mob for 20 damage and nuker does 2000. With a smarter AI, the mob will go after the nuker, or in your case healer if your healing a tank. It makes sense so why not be that way...
The problem is that while you would think this should make nukers and archers try to manage their dps better, it's just more efficient for the party to replace the tank with somebody else who does more damage or can heal.
True... with enough healers, almost anyone can tank. The only thing that makes tanks better at tanking is their hate skills. Take that away and you take away their reason to exist.
I've always had problems with my low 30 tank trying to keep hate on raid bosses that are light blue(including in C3), but I've always assumed that raid boss rules are quite different. What we've always done, is if the raid boss aggro's onto the healer, the tank STOPS spamming hate and we let the healer die(saving thier MP) and hit them with a rezz soon as they drop. For some reason, healers will almost never lose raid boss aggro, and theres nothing you can do about it other than death and a quick rezz. I tank for normal PvE with my BH, theres no need for a real tank(why regen thier MP when my MP makes you more money?). So I couldnt speak to what happens with tanks in PvE.
That's just wrong. And I do hope you tested this extensively. No one should just die to lose aggro. If you spam hate the raid boss will either come back to you, or go back to a nuker but only if the healer stops spammin heal on itself and uses a health pot. If the healer spams heal on itself, the raid boss will always aggro it more. But if another healer heals the first healer, the raid boss will go after the other healer. Try it.
We were less interested in testing it than we were to moving on to the next raid boss(we farmed the 25-35 range extensively in C3 to the tune of 30-40mil a night). The goal was always to be able to do 2 raid bosses per buffset, and letting the healer die(without them, or the tank wasting all thier MP) proved to be the more efficient method of dealing with it. If we were to do this with the higher end bosses, we would probably use the same method, and carry Brezz. When trying to farm raid bosses, speed and efficiency matter, XP becomes a non factor.
That's just wrong. And I do hope you tested this extensively. No one should just die to lose aggro. If you spam hate the raid boss will either come back to you, or go back to a nuker but only if the healer stops spammin heal on itself and uses a health pot. If the healer spams heal on itself, the raid boss will always aggro it more. But if another healer heals the first healer, the raid boss will go after the other healer. Try it.
Well, when it takes the tank 4-5 hates to get the aggro back from a healer that is atm doing nothing at all, its just not working. And it doesn't aply only to Raids.. it applies, in a lesser degree, to all normal mobs.
Well I know I'm not willing to play patsy for a raid boss. Find some other sucker to die, lose exp, maybe drop equipment. And on the Shax incident I had just put on an A grade lucky charm, died and still dropped my equipped earring and something in inventory.
Heh, xp is a non factor. Tell that to your healer. Maybe some are cool with it but I would be sooo not for it.
You missed what I said Ellie, Im talking about FARMING raid bosses. We do it for the money, and delevel nightly to facilitate it. XP is truely a nonfactor in what we do. Hell, we kill eachother when the night is over and call it a free BSOE.
75 sk went thrpow aboit 1k mp pulling a mob asnd on the path it went past some oen who was soloing a summonors pet he woudent get of the kitty i finaly said f it ran over and hate auraed and got him but its retarted that hate is soo inn effective now its only cerent cases so it leades me to beleive its a bug
Well that's fine, I've done that myself. That's how Silver went from 20-30 and down again many times. But I'm saying that not everyone farms the bosses like... well, FARMERS. Some of us do it for the drops and don't want to die.
That's very true, but things as they currently are is no good either. If an old lady beat on you with a stick, and a world class archer shot you with arrows which would you go after? The old lady :p?
Ild move the lady between me anf the archer, let the archer kill the old lady using it as a sheild then close in sheilded to the archer to finish him off :)