wow, they killed Antharas on three different servers today? :eek:
o k a y then . . . donno :confused:
no but there have been 3 threads on this topic today :)
+4
ahhh, bummer
can we get some special GM attention on Sieghardt please? we've got a problem
As long as their toons are actually played by someone at the time the GM performs his/her tests, you aren't gonna get any action. They have to be caught breaking the EULA and raiding Antharas isn't against the EULA.
As long as their toons are actually played by someone at the time the GM performs his/her tests, you aren't gonna get any action. They have to be caught breaking the EULA and raiding Antharas isn't against the EULA.
:eek:
No but selling adena is, if the GM's cant track 1 billion adena sales (boss rings), the flow of level 12 crystals and the adena transfers after then I wonder what it is they do?
As long as their toons are actually played by someone at the time the GM performs his/her tests, you aren't gonna get any action. They have to be caught breaking the EULA and raiding Antharas isn't against the EULA.
:eek:
No but selling adena is, if the GM's cant track 1 billion adena sales (boss rings), the flow of level 12 crystals and the adena transfers after then I wonder what it is they do?
I totally agree. But I was responding to the fact that they had actually killed Antharas, which is the subject of this thread. That in itself is not against the EULA if all toons were actually played.
What they do with the adena that they receive from selling the loot they got is a completely different subject and can be roped in with any adena selling activity.
like what Sent said, If GMs tracked Boss Jewels they could EASILY nail adena sellers. Their current 'investigations' obviously aren't that effective so following a trail of Boss Jewels is probably the BEST way GMs could track adena sellers. It would have to lead them directly to cheaters one way or another and since there aren't that many yet it would be EASY to track.
like what Sent said, If GMs tracked Boss Jewels they could EASILY nail adena sellers. Their current 'investigations' obviously aren't that effective so following a trail of Boss Jewels is probably the BEST way GMs could track adena sellers. It would have to lead them directly to cheaters one way or another and since there aren't that many yet it would be EASY to track.
Tracking the trail of a boss jewel isn't the issue. That is a legit sale, unless you can prove the buyer purchased the adena with which he bought it. It is what happens to the adena that purchased the boss jewel that is the issue.
To compound matters it could go through 50 different players through buying and selling of items and turn from (for example) 100million adena into 150million adena. All of that adena is legal as no-one has payed any money for it. It's only when it gets sold that it becomes illegal adena.
Proving that a player payed RL money for adena is the crux of the whole matter (and NCSoft are very keen to categorically prove things). As soon as you can prove that RL money exchanged hands you can punish the buyer and the sellers.
How you prove that RL money changed hands is difficult in the extreme and I think NCSoft (and other MMORPGare on a hiding to nothing trying to stop adena sales in this game. I'd be shocked of anyone had been banned for buying adena and I bet you could count on the fingers of one hand the number of leaders of adena-selling rings that had been banned also. Banning the delivery mule is achieving nothing.
As long as their toons are actually played by someone at the time the GM performs his/her tests, you aren't gonna get any action. They have to be caught breaking the EULA and raiding Antharas isn't against the EULA.
:eek:
No but selling adena is, if the GM's cant track 1 billion adena sales (boss rings), the flow of level 12 crystals and the adena transfers after then I wonder what it is they do?
I totally agree. But I was responding to the fact that they had actually killed Antharas, which is the subject of this thread. That in itself is not against the EULA if all toons were actually played.
What they do with the adena that they receive from selling the loot they got is a completely different subject and can be roped in with any adena selling activity.
the only reason the bosses fall is for the items that are sold. Where's the adena go? They don't buy anything in the game to amount to much, they don't own clan halls or castles, they don't play. They just kill raid bosses and ? the items are warehoused? we've got to use our brains, farmer raiders are a $money$ making machine; in a game environment.
Wanna play Monopley? You give me $10 USD and I'll give you 400 monopely dollars so that you can buy St.CharlesPlace and add a house.
If toon A sells a boss jewelry piece, and in turn gives that money to toon B. Toon B is a lowbie with billions of adena. And toon B hands some of that money off to toon C, a normal player. And toon D, another normal player, and toon E, so on.
Okay we can look at that set of trades. And we can all probably agree there was probably a trade of RL cash for adena. But there is 0 proof. Purchasing takes place outside of game. NCsoft can't track what you do on the internet. And a lvl 1 toons with goofy names trading off multiple millions of adena to different people is not a violation of the EULA. Its a red flag for sure. But you can put up as many red flags as you want around these people, it won't let you see what goes on outside of the game.
Oh please lets not insult peoples intelligence with the "proof" arguments. NCsoft USA banned over 30,000 accounts since the start and bet every single one of them will tell you they are innocent. The only 100% proof you have is people flat out admiting they did it, otherwise it's a based on assumptions and red flags.
Oh please lets not insult peoples intelligence with the "proof" arguments. NCsoft USA banned over 30,000 accounts since the start and bet every single one of them will tell you they are innocent. The only 100% proof you have is people flat out admiting they did it, otherwise it's a based on assumptions and red flags.
Nope, they have a process that they follow which is considered as proof enough to them to ban an account. NCSoft run the game and that is what matters but, to sa***uard future business, they have to be seen to be fair and just, hence their testing processes.
They may have banned 30,000 accounts since the start but they don't give details of how many are banned for each reason. I would bet you a hefty sum that most of these are for illegal third-party program use and that an extremely low percentage (I'd go as low as less than one percent) are for the purchase and sale of adena.
And I'll tell you why I think it. The action that involves the breaking of the EULA, the exchange of real-life money, takes place entirely outside of the game. How does NCSoft prove, without reasonable doubt (something you'll be familiar with from the bot-report autoreply) that this exchange took place? They cannot have a process for that as it does not happen in their domain.
You can check up on people sitting at gatekeepers selling arrows for a million adena each, people sat at the racetrack doing the same thing or check for large exchanges of cash between toons that have never shared dialogue in-game before. However, none of this proves that someone paid any real-life money to someone else.
It doesn't matter what we as players "know". If it did, all the obvious bot groups all over the map would be gone. The only hope is to get these farmers banned for some other action that is punishable under the EULA.
it's not rocket science so it shouldn't be that difficult to see
back 15-20 years ago I was into law enforcement and the drug trade. The group I was with was not the type that went for the Mom & Pop bust for baggies; if you want to stop the trade of contraband you've got to get it before it reaches the customer. Did we stop the flow of contraband? not completely, but we cost them a hell of a lot of money, time, and effort - but I'm sure the general population is better for it.
it's not rocket science so it shouldn't be that difficult to see
back 15-20 years ago I was into law enforcement and the drug trade. The group I was with was not the type that went for the Mom & Pop bust for baggies; if you want to stop the trade of contraband you've got to get it before it reaches the customer. Did we stop the flow of contraband? not completely, but we cost them a hell of a lot of money, time, and effort - but I'm sure the general population is better for it.
difference is...drug trafficers go to jail. Botters,raid farmers, aden sellers get a new account after getting banned.
Oh please lets not insult peoples intelligence with the "proof" arguments. NCsoft USA banned over 30,000 accounts since the start and bet every single one of them will tell you they are innocent. The only 100% proof you have is people flat out admiting they did it, otherwise it's a based on assumptions and red flags.
Exactley they dont need absolute proof to ban players. Anyone of us can be banned at anytime for any reason they want to give us.
A few simple reasons why they could ban accounts for just looking like they are in the adena business.
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Nobody said that they need proof that would stand up in the Court of Human Rights or the highest court in the land. We are simply saying that NCSoft themselves have deemed that they would need to prove to themselves that there is enough evidence of an activity that breaks the EULA in order to ban someone.
My guess is that they do so in case a banned player decides to take action against them. How long before some spotty US teenager decides to sue NCSoft because they banned his lvl 74?
Besides which this whole thread is about farmers killing Antharas. They did so with toons played by real people. Just ecause those people aren't like you and I doesn't make a blind bit of difference, they are still people playing an in-game character.
It may leave a sour taste in the mouth but KILLING ANTHARAS IS NOT AGAINST THE EULA.
It may leave a sour taste in the mouth but KILLING ANTHARAS IS NOT AGAINST THE EULA.
True raiding Anathras is not against the EULA but having Anathras (and other high lvl raid bosses) farmed by persons who are not doing it for the sake of the game but only to make RL money removes a important "feature" of the game from the avg. real live game content player. To say it better, it removes some of the motivation to keep playing…Who wants to grind to the highest levels only to find that the high lvl content is unavailable simply because the game content owner is powerless to moderate illegal behavior?
Remember most of these raid farmer toons were botted to the high level (which only took like 15 days) and us legit players grinded over a year to get there…kinda moral killing isn't it?
The development is just another example of NcSoft's declining customer support and a even more dramatic example of their inability to deal with the botting/farming problem.
Bots are everywhere, in every part Aden & Elmore (at least on Kain). They are blatant, annoying and rob us legit players from enjoying the content of the service which we pay for…They are a plague and from this paying customer POV they are getting WORSE not better.
Dunno how long this post will last. NcSoft has been very reactive to posts that point out the problems that are going on in game. They can go ahead and bury their heads in the sand the problem will not and will never go away by itself. We need them to take action. <----Ha!
As this thread has turned mainly into a discussion of User Agreement violations, I am closing it now. As always, please send in any reports through the web site (http://support.lineage2.com) if you suspect another player of wrongdoing. Thank you!