A few of my Recharger Friends have been banned for useing 3rd party Programes, but the Fact is that all they did was Stick Keys down on the Keyboard to Constantly rechage my other Friends Warsmith while he sleeps... and my Warsmith Friend Crafts while she is awake...
So anyone else out there that Sticks Keys down on their Keyboards might Want to watch out for Players reorting them for Botting...
I wrote a thread about that in the player questions forum a month or two back, but we never got an official response. Most players were of the opinion, "why would you do that?".
That reminds me of something Spam said before. Something like being AFK is not bannable, but hunting mobs while in another room making a sandwich is.. lol. I gotta find it.
If you are not active at the keyboard, your char may not do anything actively either.
Casting a spell is an active thing to do and so it has to be actively triggered by the player. Putting a stone on the keyboard is in fact nothing else than using a very badly made up third party tool.
So the ban in this case was absolutely right, especially since the owner of the recharger was asleep, while actively influencing gameplay, no matter how little the influence was.
that’s ******ed to ban for that if some one wants to look like a bot all night and ruin there reputation like that its there own choice to do it but for them to be banned for it ? ncsoft wake the [censored] up that’s not a botter stop harassing players and go after THE CHINESESE ADENA SELLERS they should be your #1 concern not some thing as benign as this what a [censored] joke
If you are not active at the keyboard, your char may not do anything actively either.
Casting a spell is an active thing to do and so it has to be actively triggered by the player. Putting a stone on the keyboard is in fact nothing else than using a very badly made up third party tool.
So the ban in this case was absolutely right, especially since the owner of the recharger was asleep, while actively influencing gameplay, no matter how little the influence was.
Hardliner Kitten
Where is it stated that a Rock Is a 3rd Party tool ??
Where is it Stated that Sticky Tape on the Ctrl Key for PvP is a 3rd Party tool ??
Where is it stated that a Rock Is a 3rd Party tool ??
It's not. However if your toon is "pressing keys" and a GM shows up to ask you some questions, you **** well better be there to answer then. Otherwise, ban city.
Where is it Stated that Sticky Tape on the Ctrl Key for PvP is a 3rd Party tool ??
It's not because the players is at the controls to respond to a GM if necessary.
Don't be dense. He was saying that holding down control with tape, or rocks, or chewing gum, etc etc doesn't make your char DO ANYTHING unless you are there actively playing trying to PVP someone. Putting tape on your recharge F key makes you DO SOMETHING when you are not at the computer.
As for the GM's never contacted them, well, says YOU. I bet their logs show otherwise. Besides we won't know exactly how they test for bots anyway.
If you are not active at the keyboard, your char may not do anything actively either.
Casting a spell is an active thing to do and so it has to be actively triggered by the player. Putting a stone on the keyboard is in fact nothing else than using a very badly made up third party tool.
So the ban in this case was absolutely right, especially since the owner of the recharger was asleep, while actively influencing gameplay, no matter how little the influence was.
Hardliner Kitten
Where is it stated that a Rock Is a 3rd Party tool ??
Where is it Stated that Sticky Tape on the Ctrl Key for PvP is a 3rd Party tool ??
last time i read the eula it didn't mention walker or wind. ^^
Don't be dense. He was saying that holding down control with tape, or rocks, or chewing gum, etc etc doesn't make your char DO ANYTHING unless you are there actively playing trying to PVP someone. Putting tape on your recharge F key makes you DO SOMETHING when you are not at the computer.
As for the GM's never contacted them, well, says YOU. I bet their logs show otherwise. Besides we won't know exactly how they test for bots anyway.
I would have to agree with this aswell.
Recharge = action = playerintervention = player at keyboard.
A GM does not have a camera watching you or you friends over their shoulder to see if rocks/tape or whatever are used.
(Btw I will close a game like this the minute they demand a camera being placed to watch my gameplay. I really like my privacy too much to compromise that.)
It fits the definition perfectly. It allows a person to play the game while they sleep. BAN!
Now with that said, it does not fit the letter of the law.
I can honestly say it took me a moment to figure why they would ban.
This is why there is a support team. Your friends, if they are interested in returning, should go through the proper channels to reactivate their account.
Not 100% sure here, but if I were making the decisions, I would ban. And if they came to me and told me the story, that they now understand that what they were doing was wrong, and wouldnt do it again, UNBAN!
happens all the time. Go to any "not legit" sites and they tell you how to get unbanned.
Your friends have a pretty valid case for getting their accounts returned to them.
As long as you realize that the GMs had a reason to Ban as well.
So SirElrohir, by your Logic if you used Sticky Tape in PVP to stick the Key Down... you ARE in fact using a 3rd Party Tool...
Reread what I wrote and quit being stupid. Do whatever you want to your keyboard. However, you MUST be there to answer a GM's petition should it arise. Sticky tape during PVP is perfectly fine because THE PLAYER IS AT THE KEYBOARD TO ANSWER A GM!
Your moronic recharger friends would've been perfectly fine with their rock had they stuck around to answer the petition. What don't you get??
Looking at the rules posted on the web site here though:
You will not create, use, or provide any server emulator or other site where Lineage II may be played, and you will not post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other software tools related to Lineage II without the express written permission of NC Interactive.
# You will not attempt to interfere with, **** into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running Lineage II.
# You may not modify any part of the Lineage II Client, Server, or any part of the official Lineage II website.
These (along with one more related to ebaying) are the rules as related to the usual user violations (the rest of the rules are unrelated to gameplay). It would require creative use of the English language to believe that a stick of tape is a "utility, emulator, or other software tool". Its also clearly not a client modification (the "client" being an executable file on a computer, not related to the hardware). And a stick of tape does not decipher or **** any transmissions. So, under the rules, it appears a stick of tape is legit. At least technically.
Now, if NCSoft wants to amend their rules to prohibit sticks of tape, that's one thing. But until they do, there's a bit too much fuzzy room here.
Just playing devil's advocate for the tape wielders. :D
I'm with Uzume on this one ... especially since it appears that if you yourself are afk and doing nothing, but others are recharging you ... you get banned.
And a rock, a pecking bird (homer), or sticky tape isn't a 3rd party program according to the language of NCSoft. God forbid if it is, since I can't keep my blasted cat from sleeping on my keyboard or playfully smacking keys or walking all over it when I have an AFK store set up (causing distinctly odd things to happen -- which explains why I never can keep a store up). I suppose by that logic my cat (in those cases when I forget to cat-proof the freaking keyboard) is 3rd party software. While definately soft, I doubt he meets the criteria.
By the logic that NCSoft apparently is using against the WS acct that got banned, I can go find a WS that I don't particularly like afk in town and me and my friends can sit and recharge him, complain on another acct loud and long to NCSoft and get him banned. It might take a few weeks, but I have time. Since the rechargers are all behind our keyboards pursuing our vendetta and answering the (ROFLOL) GM PM's
... and give me a break ... who the heck has EVER gotten a GM pm in the last year. I think online GM's in lineage is an urban myth.
you looked in the wrong spot sweety... check the eula #7
7. OFFICIAL SERVICE
NC Interactive has designed Lineage II for play only as offered by NC Interactive at the Web Site. You agree to play Lineage II only as offered by NC Interactive at the Web Site and not through any other means. You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive , including but not limited to the use of ‘bots’ and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input. You further agree not to create or provide any other means through which Lineage II may be played by others, as through server emulators. ....
I'm with Uzume on this one ... especially since it appears that if you yourself are afk and doing nothing, but others are recharging you ... you get banned.
And a rock, a pecking bird (homer), or sticky tape isn't a 3rd party program according to the language of NCSoft. God forbid if it is, since I can't keep my blasted cat from sleeping on my keyboard or playfully smacking keys or walking all over it when I have an AFK store set up (causing distinctly odd things to happen -- which explains why I never can keep a store up). I suppose by that logic my cat (in those cases when I forget to cat-proof the freaking keyboard) is 3rd party software. While definately soft, I doubt he meets the criteria.
By the logic that NCSoft apparently is using against the WS acct that got banned, I can go find a WS that I don't particularly like afk in town and me and my friends can sit and recharge him, complain on another acct loud and long to NCSoft and get him banned. It might take a few weeks, but I have time. Since the rechargers are all behind our keyboards pursuing our vendetta and answering the (ROFLOL) GM PM's
... and give me a break ... who the heck has EVER gotten a GM pm in the last year. I think online GM's in lineage is an urban myth.
see eula #7. Training a cat to run your toon involves no human input and therefore is a bannable offense. Read the eula before you say it isn't defined because it clearly is... ANYTHING that does something without human input is a no no in the eula... anything includes cats, rocks, toothpicks, tape, wind, walker, and a trained chimp.
see eula #7. Training a cat to run your toon involves no human input and therefore is a bannable offense. Read the eula before you say it isn't defined because it clearly is... ANYTHING that does something without human input is a no no in the eula... anything includes cats, rocks, toothpicks, tape, wind, walker, and a trained chimp.
<offtopic>Who said the cat was trained. Have you ever trained a cat? If I could train the blasted cat, he wouldn't be sleeping on my keyboard or screwing up my afk stores.</offtopic>
Still don't agree, especially don't agree with the fact that the account being recharged was banned as well without it performing ANY action outside of any of the quoted EULA even in the strictest sense. It was the recipient of other accounts recharging it. So again ... what a great way to get all those bothersome afk toons banned!
see eula #7. Training a cat to run your toon involves no human input and therefore is a bannable offense. Read the eula before you say it isn't defined because it clearly is... ANYTHING that does something without human input is a no no in the eula... anything includes cats, rocks, toothpicks, tape, wind, walker, and a trained chimp.
<offtopic>Who said the cat was trained. Have you ever trained a cat? If I could train the blasted cat, he wouldn't be sleeping on my keyboard or screwing up my afk stores.</offtopic>
I got all excited that somebody was going to argue with me... I'm sad now. :(
kill the cat imo. Nothing should get in the way of L2 :D
When are they going to let me play on my mac, is boring inbetween classes.
and to keep this legit, didn't someone a while back say how to setup sticky keys in windows to allow for you to hit ctrl once to have it turn "on" and a second time to turn it "off"? I forgot how to do it though :/
Not sure how a cat can screw up a private store unless your hot bar 1-12 consists of buy and sell shop icons or the cat is good at doing alt+F4 or control X ... whatever key combo logs you out.
Would it not be possible to make a macro to do the following.
/target dwarf
/useskill recharge
/dealy 90
and repeat as much as you want
In doing this you are doing the same thing as the rock; however, you are using the program to run it. Are you telling me I now must be at the keyboard to run this macro or is it ok since it is not a "3rd party" program?
You can't run a macro forever though, it ends around 9 lines or something like that. So you can recharge 9 times then have to be there to do it again.
Ok thanks. Thought there was a repaet first line as I see lots of people shouting on end for hours in sell shops and figure no one is there to keep pushing that macro.
SWG had that kind of setup. You could basically macro all the crafter jobs and a few others (all that did not require combat exp) within a few hours, just taking breaks to learn new skills.
Single macros are fine, they are very useful to safe lots of keystrokes.
But any repetitive INFINITE process should be impossible with game mechanics.
Oh and forget to train cats.
Robert A. Heinlein: "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
I'm with Uzume on this one ... especially since it appears that if you yourself are afk and doing nothing, but others are recharging you ... you get banned.
And a rock, a pecking bird (homer), or sticky tape isn't a 3rd party program according to the language of NCSoft. God forbid if it is, since I can't keep my blasted cat from sleeping on my keyboard or playfully smacking keys or walking all over it when I have an AFK store set up (causing distinctly odd things to happen -- which explains why I never can keep a store up). I suppose by that logic my cat (in those cases when I forget to cat-proof the freaking keyboard) is 3rd party software. While definately soft, I doubt he meets the criteria.
By the logic that NCSoft apparently is using against the WS acct that got banned, I can go find a WS that I don't particularly like afk in town and me and my friends can sit and recharge him, complain on another acct loud and long to NCSoft and get him banned. It might take a few weeks, but I have time. Since the rechargers are all behind our keyboards pursuing our vendetta and answering the (ROFLOL) GM PM's
... and give me a break ... who the heck has EVER gotten a GM pm in the last year. I think online GM's in lineage is an urban myth.
see eula #7. Training a cat to run your toon involves no human input and therefore is a bannable offense. Read the eula before you say it isn't defined because it clearly is... ANYTHING that does something without human input is a no no in the eula... anything includes cats, rocks, toothpicks, tape, wind, walker, and a trained chimp.
kill the cat imo. Nothing should get in the way of L2 :D
you can enable sticky keys by either triple shifting in rapid sucession or by using the accesability option in the contorl panel. When it cata's you can use the shift stickied on a nuker so you don;t move for Max mp regen.
When are they going to let me play on my mac, is boring inbetween classes.
and to keep this legit, didn't someone a while back say how to setup sticky keys in windows to allow for you to hit ctrl once to have it turn "on" and a second time to turn it "off"? I forgot how to do it though :/
I can't get upset over the player doing that, the rules doesn't state anything of the nature, NCSoft should have a clear rule stating such (and not just one that only vaguely eludes to it and in normal language wouldn't even count).
And where the heck does the line go, why is selling your stuff (giving you an advantage and gaining money) ok when done afk and when sleeping (and it is NOT stated in the rules that its ok), why is regenerating ok to do afk?, etc.
Doublestandard at best. To make it worse, NCSoft Korea has allowed the client to do this *by choice*, it would be no problem for them to stop "stuck keys" from working, yet they allow it.
In the end there's no rule that states that being afk is an offense, not even if your character is doing anything. And the arguement about responding to a GM, can an AFK shop or AFK regenerating character respond? Nope. Then hey, ban all of Giran, next time only sell and buy when you're at your computer.
any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input
Yes, thats a nice one (but its not in the rules, thats a license agreement, stupid place to put it at best), except that would cover AFK shops and other such as well.
kill the cat imo. Nothing should get in the way of L2 :D
When are they going to let me play on my mac, is boring inbetween classes.
and to keep this legit, didn't someone a while back say how to setup sticky keys in windows to allow for you to hit ctrl once to have it turn "on" and a second time to turn it "off"? I forgot how to do it though :/
you can enable sticky keys by either triple shifting in rapid sucession or by using the accesability option in the contorl panel. When it cata's you can use the shift stickied on a nuker so you don;t move for Max mp regen.
You can sell without user intervention, it's a game mechanic. You can sit on your butt and regen while afk, again other than sitting down there is no intervention required. I don't have to constantly hold down a key to do either one of those.
Again it just comes down to doing something that normally requires a user to be at the keys, while not at the keys, which is what is not allowed.
Doesn't matter, the rules clearly states ANY METHOD. It doesn't say "holding down keys" "interacting" or otherwise.
Some games don't allow AFK even when its within the gamemethods.
Again it just comes down to doing something that normally requires a user to be at the keys, while not at the keys, which is what is not allowed.
Thats nice and all, but thats not what the rules said. We might know Spams definition because we use the forums, but alot of people don't. And you can't automatically assume that players will understand a rule one way when they come from different places that define the same rule differently.
Addition: This is a debate about the policy itself, not the origional case, which is another matter entirely (and heck, can't even know if they tell the truth or not anyway)
There is one thing you aren't taking into account here. GMs aren't exactly on the ball with in game comunications. If you send a petition in game you may wait for several hours for a response. What's to stop them from contacting an in game character when they are afk/shop mode and then decide that nobody is there? The whole game is corrupt and I certainly don't intend to support NC Soft anymore. They are more interested in making money from farmers accounts than legit players.
I have yet to met a single person thats in Lineage 2 that doesn't or hasn't broken any interpretation of the rules.
The rule doesn't say "external means", it simply says play the game. I have seen you several times tell people to "play the game" and do things like selling and buying things...so you can't really say its not playing the game.
I would hope to think that these kinds of cases aren't want the GMs are using their hardearned time on, I was ****** off to read elsewhere where one of the most powerful people on my server bragged about setting up this great multiclan botting system and having several billion adena he made great RL cash on, and then shrug-laughing at how inefficient NCSoft is at impeding him. Then thinking that someone was spending time on busting someone on a technicality and poor wording is not very inspiring.
I hope the origional case is wrong, and I hope NCSoft will take a little time to add this rules to the Rules of Conduct, and clarify it to players who may think the words mean differently according to whatever place/MMORPG they came from previously. Hopefully this is will be thought about.
I have yet to met a single person thats in Lineage 2 that doesn't or hasn't broken any interpretation of the rules.
Who's interpretation? Yours? It doesn't count. Only NCSoft's interpretation means anything.
The rule doesn't say "external means", it simply says play the game. I have seen you several times tell people to "play the game" and do things like selling and buying things...so you can't really say its not playing the game.
There is a difference between "playing the game" and "making actions afk". You know this. Personally, I'm glad these people got banned. They were spamming actions to the server. These are the ones that should be banned. It's painfully easy to spot. Get the AFK "!WTS" crowd next.
Where is it stated that a Rock Is a 3rd Party tool ??
Where is it Stated that Sticky Tape on the Ctrl Key for PvP is a 3rd Party tool ??
One simple paragraph in the EULA explains why they can ban anyone they suspect of cheating.
We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or willfully infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion , inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of Lineage II as described in the Rules of Conduct . If we terminate this Agreement under any circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the balance of any prepaid period without any refund.
If you are not active at the keyboard, your char may not do anything actively either.
Casting a spell is an active thing to do and so it has to be actively triggered by the player. Putting a stone on the keyboard is in fact nothing else than using a very badly made up third party tool.
So the ban in this case was absolutely right, especially since the owner of the recharger was asleep, while actively influencing gameplay, no matter how little the influence was.
Hardliner Kitten
What if I put my mouse on my keyboard in a way that it pushes down a key? Does this now make the mouse a 3rd party tool and thus everyone using a mouse should be banned?
If you are not active at the keyboard, your char may not do anything actively either.
Casting a spell is an active thing to do and so it has to be actively triggered by the player. Putting a stone on the keyboard is in fact nothing else than using a very badly made up third party tool.
So the ban in this case was absolutely right, especially since the owner of the recharger was asleep, while actively influencing gameplay, no matter how little the influence was.
Hardliner Kitten
What if I put my mouse on my keyboard in a way that it pushes down a key? Does this now make the mouse a 3rd party tool and thus everyone using a mouse should be banned?
If it's sending actions to the server? Yes. Rightly so.
Duh, well of course, which is why they need to put up their proper interpretation in the Eula AND the rules.
Currently you have to redefine words for AFK shops not to be a bannable offense, thats not good wording. And to make it worse, the rule is buried somewhere far down miles of text in a very vague form, instead of being clear to the player and being the the rules of conduct. It becomes even more important when other games have different ways of running the same rules, so as to avoid people playing one way only to find out the game interprets it as something else.
There is a difference between "playing the game" and "making actions afk".
doing something that advertises to other players, makes money and changes powerstructure is most certainly playing the game.
I'm glad these people got banned.
Sorry, I feel like its reading two stories next to eachother, one where Osama is bragging about smuggling a bunch of terrorists into the US, and then below a story about harbour security and the anti-terror squads made a great victory when they 50 man strong arrested a guy who throw his crumbled piece of paper and a bin and missed.
I am not glad they get banned on a tecnicality or wording misunderstanding. At best they should have left the petition window open to the person explaining that NCSoft considers their actions to be in violation of the EULA section 7, and that any further actions done like this will cause them to take permanent action against their accounts.
Sorry, I feel like its reading two stories next to eachother, one where Osama is bragging about smuggling a bunch of terrorists into the US, and then below a story about harbour security and the anti-terror squads made a great victory when they 50 man strong arrested a guy who throw his crumbled piece of paper and a bin and missed.
Personally, I don't give two craps about Osama but I would be ****** if someone stole my wallet.
Not going to respond to the rest of your nonsense. You're arguing to hear yourself.
In the end the GMs interperate the rules as they see fit. Look at how they treat scammers who impersonate people. Then there is the harrasment of specific players (KOS anyone?) all are in their rules but they don't enforce them. How they can convince people they are legit employees of NC Soft and ban regular players immeadiately, but allow groups of farmers to continue botting for years despite constant petitions by many legit players is beyond me. If only there was a gaming equivalent of the ACCC, then at least we would have a ruling body to send complaints to and get real customer service.
Wonder if they will refund money already paid for accounts in advance that can no longer be used? You know they won't and that my friend is theft.
Now please continue to defend them my NC Soft fanboy spammer.
In the end the GMs interperate the rules as they see fit. Look at how they treat scammers who impersonate people. Then there is the harrasment of specific players (KOS anyone?) all are in their rules but they don't enforce them. How they can convince people they are legit employees of NC Soft and ban regular players immeadiately, but allow groups of farmers to continue botting for years despite constant petitions by many legit players is beyond me. If only there was a gaming equivalent of the ACCC, then at least we would have a ruling body to send complaints to and get real customer service.
Scamming and KOSing is not against the rules. Try again.
Wonder if they will refund money already paid for accounts in advance that can no longer be used? You know they won't and that my friend is theft.
Sue 'em. (Not theft, by the way).
Now please continue to defend them my NC Soft fanboy spammer.
Doesn't the TOG in front of your name signify "The Old Group"? A group of gamers that purported to act more mature than the kiddies out there? Whom did you buy this account from? Obviously you don't meet their standards.
That would just be flat out stupid if they were to ban an AFK shop, when you HAVE to do it that way to sell something. The game is set up for you to input in an item and a price, and sell it after the user intervention is already applied. I don't get how you can even argue that.
But if your shop sold something, removed the sell shop, stands up, restocks, sits down to sell again while you're AFK, that is bad news. Ever see those shops that just get up and sit back down over and over? THAT is illegal.