First of all, welcome to all the new registered players here on the official message board. ;) I ask that, if you are new, that you take a moment to read the Forum Rules and Policies (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=493019) to prevent any action taken against your posts or your board account.
Several players have been visiting today to express concerns about players who violate the User Agreement. Finding and taking action against those players is one of our top priorities. Our GM team works endlessly to investigate players who may be violating the rules. As RustNC mentioned recently, to date we have banned over 30,000 accounts since last September, and we continue to work on this issue. Please see this thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=573737) for more information on this topic and to share any information with us.
If there is a specific player or group of players you suspect of wrongdoing, please don't use the official message board to report them. Violation reports are not gathered from the official message board, but from your in-game petitions and reports sent through the web site (http://support.lineage2.com). We appreciate all the details that you send us.
Finally, I want to repeat that spamming the official message board is never the way to have your voice heard. More often than not, all it results in is the banning of your board account. In particular, repeatedly posting threads that violate the board rules will result in swift action against your board account. This includes "petition" threads where replies only consist of "/signed", posts about botting or ebaying, and posts about message board censorship. Please check out the rules and post constructively to be heard.
I'll leave this thread open for now, but please don't let it get out of hand or I will have to close it.
I want to repeat that spamming the official message board is never the way to have your voice heard. More often than not, all it results in is the banning of your board account.
Ignoring your player base is no\ way to run a game you want to make money on. More often than not all it results in is your players getting frustrated and quitting, and you no longer having a job.
This thread should hopefully imply that those concerns are not ignored -- if they were, this thread and other similar threads wouldn't be here on the board.
This thread should hopefully imply that those concerns are not ignored -- if they were, this thread and other similar threads wouldn't be here on the board.
Agreed, but the problem still exists in game, which is where we are complaining about it.
Thats all very nice, but these "methods" you ask us to use are completely worthless. We have been trying to use them for over a year now and with the same result, a rather disrespectful neglect.
You do ofcourse realize that it is almost imposible to complete the level 75 quest now since the raid bosses needed to do the quest are killed within minutes of spawning? And the non legit people that are doing this, get to do it freely day in and day out now for a few months. Where in those 30 thousand accounts banned were these ones? Oh yea I forgot, they weren't. Thanks for banning all the 30 thousand botting accounts out in elmore, instead of the game function ruining ones.
The fact is 30.000 accounts banned aren't enough as all legit players can see it in-game.
This problem is not new, so NCSoft should say they can't held this situation.
So, what will you guys now do to fix the problems? Or do you still feel that you have done enough? If you have banned 30k accounts, maybe it is time to make it 300k since I really dont see any diffrence yet.
The main problem - which I believe they might even have stated - is avoiding false positives.
Just as an example: The GreenWarsmiths clan on Devianne was long believed to be a farmer group, and newbies often think the BodkinsOfGludio clan is the same. However, they are (in case of Bodkin) a respectable person, or were in case of GreenWarsmiths normal players (they disbanded now). All the Bodkins and most of GreenWarsmiths had themed names.
Trying to not make mistakes at all costs is slowing down the process a lot, I believe.
Of course, I've said what I think of this, so I'll shut it now.
PS: They are still banning more accounts - there are some old numbers from november flying around I think, it was only around 2k in that one sweep at the time.
I can attest for only three of the maybe one dozen bot groups I've reported disappearing (unless they retired voluntarily), but I didn't race all of the nine others. I'm only absolutely certain about two groups being retained after the report.
This thread should hopefully imply that those concerns are not ignored -- if they were, this thread and other similar threads wouldn't be here on the board.
Two years Mistryl... TWO YEARS we have voiced our concerns on something that I am sure you know about... and NOTHING has been changed. Locked / Deleted / Ignored. To simply say "those concerns are not ignored" it is utter BS, you know it, I know it, every person who posted their concerns here knows it. You insult our intelligence.
This thread implies that you made a thread about it so you wouldnt have to keep deleting threads, not that something is actually being done, because you have said the same thing for such a long time it is turning into a bad joke.
We are so upset about this issue that we are aboit to boil over, and just now, 2 minutes ago I found 27 botted characters in the same catacomb. Does this indicate that you are actually doing something about it, or that you are just simply lying to our faces and deleting our concerns and calling them rule violations? You tell me Mystryl. Where I come from, when I as a customer is not satisfied with the product, I complain about it and ensure that I get what I pay for, because at least over here, there are laws that regulate that. You know, to protect the consumer since they are in a weaker position.
I am now typing really fast because I know from experience that you soon will lock this thread, so you will have to excuse if my post does not turn out so well.
Nevertheless, the community (every single person that I have talked to, and thats alot) feels that:
A) We should not have to go to a website that is really hard to navigate to do the job for you that you should already be doing for us.
B) This is a huge concern for the longlivity of the game, because the rumour is out there - yeah, the horrible rumour - and we have to work against this to be able to renew the playerbase to keep the game we love alive.
C) Deleting threads is not the answer to everything. Lock, merge or split threads to keep them on topic and to consolidate. Just ninja deleting will never solve anything, nor will it create dialogs to build the community.
This thread should hopefully imply that those concerns are not ignored -- if they were, this thread and other similar threads wouldn't be here on the board.
With all due respect Misrtyl, the initial deletion by your equals showed that there was no care for what we had to say. It is very bad taste and bad for business to delete a thread with valid points. Whether or not it belonged in this particular section, it should have been MOVED as opposed to DELETED. I have more respect for you because your have more tact than the ogre(tsiris or wtf ever his name is), by letting us openly discuss it and at least giving us an "answer" even if it is the one we have heard over and over again. The afternoon would have been easier on your staff had they taken the correct action of moving rather than deleting a post that so many people are moved toward.
So, what will you guys now do to fix the problems? Or do you still feel that you have done enough?
As I mentioned, this continues to be a priority for us -- our level of commitment to this issue has never waned. We will continue to investigate and take action against players who violate the User Agreement. However, when you report a player, it does not result in an instant ban; investigations do take some time.
I'd like to re-post these two Q&As from the official thread as a reminder, as I have seen these questions come up:
I reported a bot [time frame] ago, and they are still playing. Why did you ignore my report?
Every bot report results in an investigation and these reports are never ignored. An investigation of a player who may be using a bot program does take some time.
Do you know about raid boss farmers?
Any and all reports of players using third-party software for whatever purpose is investigated. In regards to players hunting raid boss monsters, all players are welcome to fight them on a first-come first-serve basis. Simply being first to kill the boss mobs once they spawn or repeatedly killing them is not a violation. However, using bot programs to fight the monster(s) or selling the dropped items for real-life currency are violations, and we do take strict disciplinary action against that type of behavior.
-=-
Please guys, remember to keep it constructive when replying in this thread and here on the official board.
We have in Teon a 'group of players' that 'kill raidbosses' on respawn, they are 'really hardcore' and are online 24/7 so they always are ready to 'kill raidbosses', they have friends out of the clan that are so hardcore as them but as they can't level enought because have 'some problems with the city guards' they just 'kill lesser bosses' to get boss jewelry on respawn.
They have some friends that no play too much, and can't affort any armor and that's why they are level 1 and are naked, so they sell 'Soul Crystal Stage 11-12', 'Bosses Jewelry', and some A grade and S grade stuff.
And they are really friendly people, if you ask the msn adress of his boss (poor guy, he have 3-4 personalities) he can 'lend' to you some hundred of millions so you can afford to buy this shinny jewels that are sold by those poor naked dwarves in Giran.
Yes, people don't know about what they are talking :)
What exactly entails an investigation? With a general consumer client it is very VERY noticeable when someone is a bot. 2 mins of observing a bot group and playing with their mobs and watching their AF and Assisting and you should have no doubt they are bots.
" selling the dropped items for real-life currency are violations, and we do take strict disciplinary action against that type of behavior. "
So why are the raidboss farmers with names XXIIaodfaII that have 50 people kill raidbosses THE SECOND THEY SPAWN still in the game.. @_@ and btw if the name throws you off, when you get... "wo bu xie shi lou" then they PK you.. I just don't know what it takes to KNOW they are Farmers.....
So, what will you guys now do to fix the problems? Or do you still feel that you have done enough?
As I mentioned, this continues to be a priority for us -- our level of commitment to this issue has never waned. We will continue to investigate and take action against players who violate the User Agreement. However, when you report a player, it does not result in an instant ban; investigations do take some time.
I'd like to re-post these two Q&As from the official thread as a reminder, as I have seen these questions come up:
I reported a bot [time frame] ago, and they are still playing. Why did you ignore my report?
Every bot report results in an investigation and these reports are never ignored. An investigation of a player who may be using a bot program does take some time.
Do you know about raid boss farmers?
Any and all reports of players using third-party software for whatever purpose is investigated. In regards to players hunting raid boss monsters, all players are welcome to fight them on a first-come first-serve basis. Simply being first to kill the boss mobs once they spawn or repeatedly killing them is not a violation. However, using bot programs to fight the monster(s) or selling the dropped items for real-life currency are violations, and we do take strict disciplinary action against that type of behavior.
-=-
Please guys, remember to keep it constructive when replying in this thread and here on the official board.
Not to long ago someone was banned for "glitching" into Antharas lair, now this player got banned maybe two days after he apperantly got reported.
Yet.. People have petitioned COUNTLESS times over a certain group of raid farmers "glitching" into Zaken lair. They have sent in Screenshots as well, and ALL of those Raid farmers are STILL in game. I assure you these petitions were sent WAY before that player who got banned for the Antharas glitch. Weeks before, and they still continue to be sent, and these same cheaters remain in game.
So my question to you is do you automatically skip any petitions with the word farmer in it and move directly onto petitions against legit players? Or do you just ignore the farmer petitions all together?
We can't share any details about the process of investigating a character, but this info posted by HGMspam should hopefully shed a little light on it.
4. Reporting bots: Reporting bots is important, but this is not our only method of catching bots. (I will talk about testing methods later.) Reporting bots helps us identify problem areas. You should not expect to be able to report somebody and have them disappear instantly. It does not work that way. Your reports move that bot or group to a top of a list of characters “to be tested.” You can report bots anyway you like but you do have to include at least one bot name. You do not have to put in every name you see in a train for us to take action. “SoAndSo is in a bot train,” is just fine. I have seen posts where customers have said that they have had their petitions closed out because they could not list all members of a bot train. I am looking into this as that should not happen.
5. Testing Methods: We have several tests for bots. Some of the tests are obvious and others are not. Some of you that have been tested may know what I am talking about. (I will talk about false reports later.) We have some tests that are GM side only. This means it is non-invasive and you will never see it. These tests are the ones that really identify bots. Most of the bot tests you do see are very simple tests that try to break a bots routine.
Think all we're asking for is feedback with facts that NC Soft is actually doing
something about all the raised concerns ?
All the thread to which we're pointed too here shows me is that these issues are long
ongoing ? Where are the posts in which we see communicated that things are worked
upon staved by ingame actions/facts ?
Guess what I'm trying to say here is put the money where your mouth is and show us
that our voices are heard ;)
To be constructive... how come Raid Bosses, especially Zaken, but also any other 7x raid boss, why aren't the players that killed these paid special attention to? The priority of farmers to ban is these... some bot train in Dev Castle has some effect, but the complete monopoly adena farmers have on raid bosses completely realligns the games player run economy and effectively ruins much of the A and S grade market, for the most part at least on Bartz, the same illegitimate players have been killing these bosses for months.
So, what will you guys now do to fix the problems? Or do you still feel that you have done enough?
As I mentioned, this continues to be a priority for us -- our level of commitment to this issue has never waned. We will continue to investigate and take action against players who violate the User Agreement. However, when you report a player, it does not result in an instant ban; investigations do take some time.
I'd like to re-post these two Q&As from the official thread as a reminder, as I have seen these questions come up:
I reported a bot [time frame] ago, and they are still playing. Why did you ignore my report?
Every bot report results in an investigation and these reports are never ignored. An investigation of a player who may be using a bot program does take some time.
Do you know about raid boss farmers?
Any and all reports of players using third-party software for whatever purpose is investigated. In regards to players hunting raid boss monsters, all players are welcome to fight them on a first-come first-serve basis. Simply being first to kill the boss mobs once they spawn or repeatedly killing them is not a violation. However, using bot programs to fight the monster(s) or selling the dropped items for real-life currency are violations, and we do take strict disciplinary action against that type of behavior.
-=-
Please guys, remember to keep it constructive when replying in this thread and here on the official board.
So what I get out of this is, nothing will change at all? You totaly ignored my question if you feel you have done enough so far or not. If you will do MORE from now on or not.
Personally I think it is time to post numbers of how many botters you ban and maybe even the names. Afterall they are cheaters and have no right to have any privacy.
IF you have more tools than us to detect bots (duh :p), makes me really wonder why more aren't banned. I just truly don't understand. There has to be some factor that the general L2 public isn't aware of, be it drastic underfunding/staffing or a belief that farmers are neccasary for the economy(before you think thats a slander it isn't meant to be im not implying a conspiracy or anything of the like). You guys say you are fully dedicated to the problem and I would love to really believe that... I guess what I am getting to is the whole situation kinda befuddles me.
We can't share any details about the process of investigating a character, but this info posted by HGMspam should hopefully shed a little light on it.
4. Reporting bots: Reporting bots is important, but this is not our only method of catching bots. (I will talk about testing methods later.) Reporting bots helps us identify problem areas. You should not expect to be able to report somebody and have them disappear instantly. It does not work that way. Your reports move that bot or group to a top of a list of characters “to be tested.” You can report bots anyway you like but you do have to include at least one bot name. You do not have to put in every name you see in a train for us to take action. “SoAndSo is in a bot train,” is just fine. I have seen posts where customers have said that they have had their petitions closed out because they could not list all members of a bot train. I am looking into this as that should not happen.
5. Testing Methods: We have several tests for bots. Some of the tests are obvious and others are not. Some of you that have been tested may know what I am talking about. (I will talk about false reports later.) We have some tests that are GM side only. This means it is non-invasive and you will never see it. These tests are the ones that really identify bots. Most of the bot tests you do see are very simple tests that try to break a bots routine.
I am not asking you to share your details on how you investigate characters.
I am asking you how can one person who get petitioned get banned days after doing something, yet an entire clan who does nearly the exact same thing continues to remain in game?
1 person glitched in, banned like 2 days after petitioned
A clan glitches in and is petitioned, and weeks have gone buy, they are still in game, and they still continue to glitch, despite many petitions.
How is this being overlooked? Are you saying one person cheating is more important to look into than 30 people cheating?
Personally I think it is time to post numbers of how many botters you ban and maybe even the names. Afterall they are cheaters and have no right to have any privacy.
We cannot post the names of banned accounts due to privacy concerns, as you guessed. I am a little confused to the number you are referring to; do you mean one different than the one in my first post?
I would like to know what type of test do you need to do when you see 30 chars running naked against the City Guards for hours?
Or what proof you need if you see a party with chars named: asdfasd22, akersdfsd, asd34sddfsd, kksderd, o1111ooloo, etc. killing mobs, without SS, classes: BD+SWS+BH+Healer+DD/DD/DD for +4 days non stop (well yes, they stop some times because the server goes down) in the same spot :/
I mean, any player just running L2 can difference a party bot from a player party.
The banning of farmer accounts would be appreciated of course, but the unbaning of legit players would be even more appreciated... Many people from the Bartz server know Accused and anyone would agree thats hes always been a totally legit player, any reviewing of the logs associated with his account would be greatly appreciated <3
I would like to know what type of test do you need to do when you see 30 chars running naked against the City Guards for hours?
Or what proof you need if you see a party with chars named: asdfasd22, akersdfsd, asd34sddfsd, kksderd, o1111ooloo, etc. killing mobs, without SS, classes: BD+SWS+BH+Healer+DD/DD/DD for +4 days non stop (well yes, they stop some times because the server goes down) in the same spot :/
I mean, any player just running L2 can difference a party bot from a player party.
Actually those Cata farmers you can actually get to leave the room simply by PM'ing the main farmer in the party and say you are going to petition them for 3rd party program. More often than not they will leave.
The farmers I am concerned about are the ones that take Raid Bosses, and even take the MAIN bosses. This is one of the games best aspects and nothing is being done about it.
The "new" refers to "new registered", as in "just registered on the board". My apologies if you are offended by the welcome; that was not my intention.
We cannot post the names of banned accounts due to privacy concerns, as you guessed. I am a little confused to the number you are referring to; do you mean one different than the one in my first post?
What I see ingame is no change at all, you say you ban them but everyday I see the same people(read bots) at the same spots. The same people(again, bots) killing the same raidbosses with the same gear for one year.
I compare from what I see ingame to your numbers and ask you if you feel you have done enough to combat cheaters? Or if you will do more from now on? Will there be any changes at all?
When I came back to this game, I found a great spot to level. It had lots of mobs around a good level for me to kill and they were all close to each other...
But the problem was... Bots galore. All outside the town of Aden and near the Cemetery, probably 20 groups of 5 killing the mobs like its nothing.
I reported this botters at least 3 months ago. I cam back there on a new character and guess what? The same exact botters are there, even after i reported every single one of them 3 months ago.
Is there any chance you guys could get the in-game gm's to take a look at the board? It is unfair for you to have to(for a lack of better words) cover their incompetent [censored]. It isn't your fault, you're a forum gm, but I think if the in-game gm's see what you have to put up with, they'll start investigating a little better and a little quicker.
We have passed along the concerns and suggestions posted here on the official message board about that issue to the development team, and we will continue to do so.
Is there any chance you guys could get the in-game gm's to take a look at the board? It is unfair for you to have to(for a lack of better words) cover their incompetent [censored]. It isn't your fault, you're a forum gm, but I think if the in-game gm's see what you have to put up with, they'll start investigating a little better and a little quicker.
This will not work. There are a fair amount of companies in the USA (Microsoft, Fed-Ex, AT&T, Verizon, etc) that outsource their support to other countries. More often than not these are people who are not familiar with the product and have a database of FAQ to use and respond to.
Also getting replys from GM's when trying to petition farmers such as "Try not to offend them, and maybe they will leave you alone" is NOT a valid reply when trying to report someone who cheats.
How is it spamming when we are posting threads about Lineage 2?
It seems as though bots/farmers/ebaying is a part of Lineage 2 world now.
So many people look at Lineage 2, what a great game then they start to see bots... The bot rate climbs until they quit. We, the legimate force of Lineage 2, cannot or barely compete because Lineage 2 is a time-consuming game. I know I don't have much time (I was level 36 for two weeks...until just a bit ago).
My two cents. :eek:
Edit: I read the post under me and thought, maybe the GMs are doing their jobs. But the rules are not strict enough.
As I mentioned, this continues to be a priority for us -- our level of commitment to this issue has never waned. We will continue to investigate and take action against players who violate the User Agreement. However, when you report a player, it does not result in an instant ban; investigations do take some time.
Mistryl, this game is not new, and almost since it's realese it has been hailed by almost all major gaming publications as a "always having a farmer problem."
So what ever you are doing, is not working and has never worked. The far stricter policies enforced by other gaming companies although not perfect, are far more successful.
Now I am well aware that L2 in NA is not popular and most of your revenue comes from the monthly time cards that botters buy, and since money is one of the most important things to a companies future it is not shocking that NCSoft NA, chooses to take the money and tell legitimate players "Don't worry we're working hard to stop the problem." As long as we keep paying you and the bottters keep paying you all is well.
But think of this, if the game was actually clean, you could advertise it! Amazing huh? put a 15-day trial in PCGamer and buy some spots in popular magazines etc.. And your player base would BOOM, but as it is the 3 real life friends I have convinced to try L2 quit 1-2 months later, becuase it was shocking to them that they could'nt hunt anywhere without "sadlkj23w" or "893411" (examples of common bot names" kill stealing them, and of course since theres hundered's of them (go to ant nest from DE villiage and take a peek) they just canceled there subscription and told me that I am insane for playing this game.
But I love this game, I just despise the say it is moderated.
Its all fine and fair. As community, we understand that the customer-support can't just ban farmer by one single report.
One the other hand, see our side as your valuable customers. Just do a search for "adena" on www.ebay.com (http://www.ebay.com) or check [removed] The couple hundred billian adenas are earned by certain "persons". Obviously the community got the oppinion that you do not do enough.
Not to mention that the entire highlevel raidcontent of linage2-bartz is on lockdown by certain raid-farmers.
Please don't link to sites that violate the User Agreement. - M
We have passed along the concerns and suggestions posted here on the official message board about that issue to the development team, and we will continue to do so.
That's good to hear, however I don't think the development team needs to here about the raid farmer problem, game mechanics should not be changed to deal with botters and such, the game mechanics are great, the problem is the players botting and selling adena, they simply need to be banned.
First off, we aren't here to start trouble with GMs, staff, etc. No one should be banned for civil discussion and your forum guidlines should be refined.
It's obvious that your "system" of banning farmers/bots isn't sufficient which is why we are posting regarding this issue. Gameguard is useless. What exactly does it stop? We know the names of botting programs and websites that sell Lineage2 adena, items, and accounts, BUT it's against the rules to post them. Are you aware of them? If so, why are the programs and sites still being allowed illegal activity?
Please improve your system of banning farmers/bots in OUR best interest. We support you with our money and the least you can do is support us.
Mystryl u are quoting a lot of words, like this take time to detect bots, or people saying that NC can ban accidentally legit playery
I only see a lot of words while players and bots are still paying
Well i will quote for u the Lineage II User Agreement (the “Agreement”) with no offense
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14. TERMINATION
(a)We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or willfully infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of Lineage II as described in the Rules of Conduct. If we terminate this Agreement under any circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the balance of any prepaid period without any refund.
(b)You agree that if the service or your account is terminated or cancelled for any reason or length of time, you are not entitled to any reimbursement or refund of any fees or unused access time.
-------
And now my question is, why is so dificult to ban bots and farmer clans?
It seems all are excuses.
Really i am not sarcastic i just want to know, i want an answer, why is so dificult that some GM go for a walk in the L2 world and ban all the suspected players that he can see? He really dont need any excuse, he can ban a legit player without any excuse if he want.
And I and a lot of people think that is better a server with 2000 legit players than a server with 2500 players and 2500 bots.
Well i just want a real answer and no more excuses please, cos is so obviuosly who is violating the EULA and so obviouly that NC can enforce the user agreement.
I just think that legit player are tired of hearing month after month the same words and no results.
I really think that NC has a big problem in this moments and a lot of people is quiting the game.
This is an advice and not an offensive post, but if Lineage II continue this way in a few month a lot of people will quit and no new players will come. Really I think that the comunity of L2 is waiting a radical change or a lot of people will quit and me the first cos u can walk now in any server and realize that something is wrong, everwhere bots, a lot of players boting, insane prices, no raids alive, no spots and if u find some a big clan will come and will kill u. Finally if u are new u dont enjoy the game.
many of the above posters are legendery players. they are the highest lvls and some of them are heroes. to not take their complain seriusly would severly hurt the community.the few elite hardcore players that still exist and play this game legit are very few and very frustrated atm.
as we all know most players that post on offical board are low lvl noobs that have very little contact with the end game.
the endgame is totaly broken as it is now when same farmer gang with exactly same gear and players run around all time and kill raid bosses maximim 5-10 min after they spawned. the same farmers have been doing this on bartz since early c3 over and over and over again. always in same gear and setup. i am 100% sure they have been reported hundreads of times but still they run in game and farm. they sell the drops for huge amounts of adenas and on some raid mobs they lvl crystals.
its kinda clear they give all drops to an character in aden or giran that later on give that to ebayers for nothing in return. often large amounts of adenas.this completly destroy the economy on the servers. couse ebayers buy the adena they need to get the best gear avaible. while legit players are no way to get best gear if they dont sit in town and buy/sell items for months and months irl.
The farmers running bot trains in silenos and ketra orc baracs and take the best spots and get to lvl 5 with that qúest and sell those s armour grade recipes super high completly destroy most legit players chanse to get s grade recipes. all spots in those places are taken exept the spot close the port spot.same with parts for s grade weps wich are only sold by farmers.
I played this game for since day 1 of open beta. i been active on 3 servers and very involved in the beginning of teon and lionna severs and i rerolled 7 times. when i go back to my old friends on the old servers i played on it makes me wanna cry when i see the hero shouts. very often it is ebayers and botters that EVERY one know cheated that played with em when they started to lvl up know they are heawy cheaters. for example one hero on teon went from comp bow to str longbow (1,6 mill wep) in the first days of teon. we all others didnt sleep at all and helped eachother and still no one else of the elite players had better then 700k bow at that time.the better gear made him lvl faster and get an edge over us others couse he used in real life money to get that bow.
Not only when the end game gets destoyed but also when ppl buy titles and rewards in this game for real money and completly removes normal players chanses to get any feedback or reward in the end game.
the selling of adena must end. it remove the chanse for normal players to enjoy this game.
It cant be hard to track the huge adena transfers or to flagg the accounts that farm same spot 24/7.
NC soft america want us players to report bad users. why u want us to do your job when we pay to play. sometimes its very hard just to target the bots and write their name down couse they have names like h6534kh634kl and h6y894 and all runs in an train very close eachother.When we petition them we get an automated answer and nothing is done against them. I have reported at least 100+ bots and no one of them have been banned, i know this couse i seen them weaks after i reported them on same spot or in town running killing them selfs naked vs guards. sometimes i have even seen a year after running and hunting same spotwith same gear with exactly the same pattern and hunt method.
players are now getting bored new players start play this game and as soon they hit 61 they got an +12 carnege and full majestic while we nornal players worked for years for our gear and have way lower gear.
What is so hard to understand that..... For NC to take any action, that an account has to fail every test the GM's do in order for them to take any action?
Is there any chance you guys could get the in-game gm's to take a look at the board?
Members of the GM team, including HGMspam, regularly visit the official message board.
do they actually read our concerns or just flirt with ppl like darkmotion
HAhahahahahahaha ! Did the x account get slapped Nadeth ?
Actually, members of the team hardly speak to me anymore (there must have been a memo about talking to Darkmotion)...
However, HGMspam visits the board sometimes and has already told me in detail how a bot investigation works. They have SO MANY PEEPS involved in this and the process is so transparent you'd probably never complain about bots again(or of the lack of people hunting bots).
I could always dig it up from my PM's, but I wouldn'T quote a PM unless I had permission from the person who wrote it.
Oh, and a funny thing that some peeps are insulted when you call them a n00b, yet are the first to insult board folks and say we don't play or are not connected to the game. You need to learn some manners to be a hero around here. Grinding levels is just not enough...
What is so hard to understand that..... For NC to take any action, that an account has to fail every test the GM's do in order for them to take any action?
go play game insteeed of make 6500 posts on an forum. see how the game looks in real and stop back up the gm in an issue where u got no cluse whuts going on!
Is there any chance you guys could get the in-game gm's to take a look at the board?
Members of the GM team, including HGMspam, regularly visit the official message board.
do they actually read our concerns or just flirt with ppl like darkmotion
HAhahahahahahaha ! Did the x account get slapped Nadeth ?
Actually, members of the team hardly speak to me anymore (there must have been a memo about talking to Darkmotion)...
However, HGMspam visits the board sometimes and has already told me in detail how a bot investigation works. They have SO MANY PEEPS involved in this and the process is so transparent you'd probably never complain about bots again(or of the lack of people hunting bots).
I could always dig it up from my PM's, but I wouldn'T quote a PM unless I had permission from the person who wrote it.
Oh, and a funny thing that some peeps are insulted when you call them a n00b, yet are the first to insult board folks and say we don't play or are not connected to the game. You need to learn some manners to be a hero around here. Grinding levels is just not enough...
Have Fun ! ™
BoardPK
Official Board Devil
if he explains how many ppl that hunt bots and how it works why are there almost more bots then players on bartz for example?
do u get items in the game by gm to back them up?
whut lvl is your main can u say that? and where do u usealy hunt?
I've been playing this game since retail, and i know whats going on. And why shouldn't i back up the GM's someone has too.
stop post on boards and go play the game
start a character on bartz. an dwarf. run north to the lvl 10 mobs. start hitting one one of the 100s of bots running around there and u see em forcelogg. the also use bot to fish there all over.
You honestly don't think NCSoft is aware of the issues after so long?
And there's a pretty big irony in blah people making a huge battle about farmers, raidboss farmers, adena buyers/sellers and botting. My Ironymeter blew up.
ncsoft maby you need to change your tos then if you cant even remove the raid farmers ( lordoflords and cancled leather on bartz) theay ate kill8ing the ehnd game content the game is dieing it needs imedeate help to save it
if he explains how many ppl that hunt bots and how it works why are there almost more bots then players on bartz for example?
do u get items in the game by gm to back them up?
whut lvl is your main can u say that? and where do u usealy hunt?
You don't know how many people are bots and how many people are players, so why base your argumentation on that ?
Get a better argument, then come back.
I CANNOT stress this enough. I get NOTHING from NCSoft, the GM's, the moderators, NOBODY. I get nothing, from nobody. I'm a player, just like you. Only better.
No, I won'T tell you my char levels. What I tell can you tho, is that I have roughly 4750 hours of time invested in L2 since it started.
then try report them and see whut happens. u say the gm s do a good job. lets try that report thing u to and see if u think gm do such an good job still when same bots farm same spots for weaks 24/7 even when u repoted them 70 times.
And they are doing what needs to be done, it just takes time.....
I have waited 2 years for results. How much longer must I wait?
What is so hard to understand that..... For NC to take any action, that an account has to fail every test the GM's do in order for them to take any action?
Since you obviously seem think NC Soft can do no wrong, then please explain to me how a single player can get banned for glitching into Antharas (like 2 days after being petitioned), yet over 30 raid farmers using the same type of glitch to get into Zaken (who get petitioned and screenshots sent in on a daily basis) are still in the game after weeks and weeks of people trying?
I've been playing this game since retail, and i know whats going on. And why shouldn't i back up the GM's someone has too.
No when your dog takes a crap on the carpet you do not say "good boy!" you scold them in a firm voice. No one has to stick up for the GM's they are doing no good.
You honestly don't think NCSoft is aware of the issues after so long?
And there's a pretty big irony in blah people making a huge battle about farmers, raidboss farmers, adena buyers/sellers and botting. My Ironymeter blew up.
No. we KNOW that they know there is a problem. We just think they don't care.
As for the Blah posters posting here. True Blah can turn into a flame fest or massive derogitory remarks, but there you can speak your mind, even posts that speak of how bad the Mods or problems with how the site is run are not deleted or locked. There is a reason why the offical forums are slow to get posts, they suck. No one wants to post here because the mods say "we listen" when they don't. They can say a 1000 times that "your issue is important to us" but I will NEVER believe them. These issue's were important to them 2 years ago, and nothing has changed.
And yes on Blah there are alot of non-farmers, that post about buying characters, botting, and so on, and for the most part they get flamed like mad, as I am sure if they posted here about them botting they would get flamed too... oh wait no the would not because the post would be deleated.
ok, i may be a bit incoherent in my post, but i will try my best to express my situation, and the situation of my entire clan(and even beyond our problems, extending to the problems of most of the loyal players)
I logged into Lineage II on Saturday night at around 8 pm PST. i managed to hit level 75 that night. I was soooo pleased about my achievment. I decided to leave my party of fellow clanmates to begin the horror that is the "Fate's Whisper" quest. Horror, you ask? Yes, a horror that I thought I understood at the time. How naive I was... I immediately made my way to the Cemetary, to find Shilens Messanger Cabrio. My hopes were low from the beginning, and sure enough, when I arrived at the location my clanmated said Cabrio could be found, the monster was nowhere in sight. Dead.
So I did what any dedicated individual does in a quest: I sat. I waited. And waited a long time. I decided to watch some television to pass the time while I waited for Cabrio to appear. About 30 mins later, Cabrio appeared. But before Cabrio appeared, I got a different form of company. A dead dwarf, with no armor, or weapons, had appeared not far from where I sat. And not two minutes after Cabrio appeared, so did "They"
"They" moved in a unified group. "They" all had Cabrio on target from a range that people cant even see Cabrio loaded on the screen. "They" were allmost all nuker classes.
And "They" all targeted me at the same time, and tried to kill me, for merely "Being there". How do I know "They" moved in unisen? Why, when you have 30 people all turn their heads and look directly at me, and cast to nuke at the same time, its not hard to tell.
Thank Mammon and the Dwarven Union for the Blessed Scroll of Escape. After that, i proceeded to buy 10 more scrolls, for exhorbident prices, but I knew it would be worth preserving the exp points I had worked so hard to get.
I teleported back to the Cemetary, and I kept my distance. Using a target macro, I monitored Cabrio's health from a safe distance. When Cabrio was killing a not even a minute later, I ran a few more /target macro's for "Them"
One by one, "They" stoped appearing on my target list. When "They" were all gone, I ran to where Cabrio had been, and found a chest containing the soul orb quest item I needed. That part of the quest completed, I began to SOE back to Aden to advance the quest, when a clan mate began asking "Is Cabrio up yet?"
That clan member finally got the orb from Cabrio.
Today, nearly 48 hours later. He fell asleep while waiting for the next Cabrio spawn, but luckily "They" didn't kill him.
Before I started "Fate's Whisper" I said with total confidence "I'll have my quest done tonight, no matter how long I have to wait for 'Them'." Cabrio was only a precurser to the agonizing trial that awaited me in the Tower of Insulence. My clan said that Death Lord Hallate appeared on the 3rd floor, so I went there. And sat. And waited.
I was there waiting for Hallate from 9:30pm on saturday to almost 2 pm THE NEXT DAY! Exasted, nerves stretched to the breaking point, Hallate *finally* appeared. And sure enough, so did "They". Within 2-3 minutes, Hallate was dead. "They" didn't start any trouble this time, because there were 11 others on 3rd floor that day, waiting, just like me. Some were lucky and had only been waiting for a little while, others had been waiting since before I had arrived, and yet more and arrived around an hour early before Hallate appeared, since they had done their best to estimate a "Spawn Time" based on previoulsy recorded or "supposed" kill times for the raidboss. In all cases, all we could do was wait, and put ourselves before the mercy of "Them"
Going off of whispered rumours about raid spawn times, I decided to remain in TOI and move to the next floor, hoping that if one boss had spawned, the others would show up soon. Then I was called by my glorious alliance leader to assist my clan in capturing Goddard Castle. I, a loyal clan member, and dedicated player, went to a siege sleep deprived and hungry from the fast of the previous night, so afraid was I to leave my computer for a second, in case the boss appeared and "They" killed it while I was gone.
I asked a person who was also looking for the remaining two bosses to pm me if a boss appeared, hoping I could get back from the siege fast enough to make it before "They" struck again. I was told halfway into the siege one of the bosses had appeared, while my leader was casting on the alter, securing our hold on the castle. I died leading a small grp up to the battlement trying to draw fire off my leader, buying him enoug support to finish his cast successfully. I missed the boss, and the item I needed, because I was too busy "Playing the game" when apparently I was supposed to be dedicating every moment to the quest, just to advance it.
Discouraged, I fell asleep after the siege at around 8pm, exhausted. I woke up hungry and restless at 3am today, and was told that Longhorn Golconda, the third boss of the quest, had been killed at 9pm, only an hour after I fell asleep. I forced myself to head back to the 8th floor of TOI. Normally, one character cannot cross a room in TOI full of strong type monsters that nuke with powerful spells and stun attacks, but there were plenty of "suspicious characters" that were keeping the room clear for the most part.
Kernon, the second boss needed for the quest, appeared today around 1:45pm. 11 hours dedicated to *watching*, *hoping*, *begging* for the monster to spawn. And he was only alive for 10 minutes. "They" had struck again, ruining the quest for people who had "gotten hungry" or "had to go to work". Luckily, this is my Memorial Day weekend, so I had all this time to *devote* to Lineage. My parents were concerned, saying I was spending too much time online. What choice did I have? I endured hours of waiting, and I was not going to endure anymore then I had to. I wanted the quest to be done, over with, behind me. I'm close to realizing my goal, but that will have to wait till tomorrow. I spent my day on the boards today, championing my leader, supporting him in his outcry for help. For what? To have our voices stifled and even silenced because we violated "proccedure" when crying out?
Yes, we are crying, begging, pleading with sweat and tears in our eyes. Eyes we can barely keep open because of "Them" and their "schedules" and "profit quotas". How did I spend my Memorial Day weekend? Tired, exhausted, and sick of it all. My bloodshot eyes are stinging, but I keep on staring at this screen, because its the *only* way. I love this game, moreso then any other game I've ever played. *EVER* So much do I love it that I bring myself to the point of PHYSICAL EXHAUSTION because thats what it takes to do a QUEST!
Should I have to?
The answer is a resounding NO! Not just from me, but the entire Lineage community. We should not have to endure such horrors and torchure just to advance in a game we enjoy. ITS NOT RIGHT!
So we rose up. Sickened by the silent and uncarring majority on other Lineage sites, our leader came to you, the main forum for the game we love so much, to demand that the general issue, and specificly, the one I have shared with you here, be resolved. Perhaps we went about things the wrong way. Perhaps the moderaters could have explained things better to us, so we could submit out cries for help properly. Did they? No... We were silenced. No warnings. No explainations. Our words were wiped away, as if they had not been there at all.
Of course, this treatment upset many, and the responce was to resubmit our complaints, only to meet with the same results. I'm sure you can understand our viewpoints, and why we became so upset. Things got out of hand, but we are fed up with it. We shouldnt have to resort to such things, but we felt we had no choice.
If "They" we not around, we could actually do the quest as a clan, or even as an alliance. get all our fresh level 75 members together and say "Today, we will all do Fate's Whisper together." But we can't. We can't go up TOI and one by one get the bosses one after another. It could be a fun experience, and something the clan could do together and enjoy as a whole, which Im sure was the origional intent.
But
we
CANT!
We do as you ask, submitting petitions, sending e-mails, but to no avail. What more must we do? You ask for our patience and understanding, and you'v had a YEAR of patience. This matter is seriouse, and extremely detrimental to the legitimate playerbase. so much so, that a quest which is a *REQUIREMENT* to access high level content, such as the title of Noblesse and the privilage to compete to be a hero, becomes so painful that a few of my clan mates have flat out said "I'm not gonna do it"
Again, you ask for patience. As a dedicated fan of Lineage II, patience is all I can give you now. Patience and this post. Everything else seems to fall short of the mark.
All we want, is action. Visible, noticable, action. I've said my piece, and now I'm going to bed. Normally, I would stay up well into the night because I enjoy the night and I'm a night person, but again, I have to bend my lifestyle for "Them".
Good night NC Soft. I'll dream of a better tomorrow, one without "Them", and one where issues like these will be a fleeting memory.
if he explains how many ppl that hunt bots and how it works why are there almost more bots then players on bartz for example?
do u get items in the game by gm to back them up?
whut lvl is your main can u say that? and where do u usealy hunt?
You don't know how many people are bots and how many people are players, so why base your argumentation on that ?
Get a better argument, then come back.
I CANNOT stress this enough. I get NOTHING from NCSoft, the GM's, the moderators, NOBODY. I get nothing, from nobody. I'm a player, just like you. Only better.
No, I won'T tell you my char levels. What I tell can you tho, is that I have roughly 4750 hours of time invested in L2 since it started.
IF U STILL LVL IN NOOB AREAS AND TALK ABOUT HOW MY GAME LOOKS LIKE THEN U GOT NO CLUE. manticore and hunt in partisans ROFL. wtf noob high score.
o i forgot u get posts ++ to post here and also gm likes u even more when u defend them. u havent even started play this game soon and should in no way be able to speak about the game or the end game content couse u can in no way have no clue when u still are in the first seconds of the game if lineage2 game to lvl 78 would be an 12 hours clock.
I have waited 2 years for results. How much longer must I wait?
Are you submitting reports?
Yup. Even SS of people using Styder to glitch into Zaken, and they are still in game, and still doing it every Zaken spawn for the past month or more. Yet one person glitches into Antharas, gets petitioned by someone and gets banned like 2 days later. So yeah I am a little ****** that nothing is being done. 30,000 people banned? I call BS on this.
I have waited 2 years for results. How much longer must I wait?
Are you submitting reports?
Yup. Even SS of people using Styder to glitch into Zaken, and they are still in game, and still doing it every Zaken spawn for the past month or more. Yet one person glitches into Antharas, gets petitioned by someone and gets banned like 2 days later. So yeah I am a little ****** that nothing is being done. 30,000 people banned? I call BS on this.
these ppl with 6k+ have never done an raid on an big boss and will never do so...
if this thread been on blah it would have had 20k+ wiews after first day. it got 1k here so i can only assume that blah got 20 times as many users. i wonder why only 5% of the player base post here and the rest on other sites...
honestly kennec, arguing with players like splatter does us no good. he is in no position to help our cause, and has no position to speak on the matter, being such a low level. we came here to voice our opinions to people that can actually help us, not argue our point with the ignorant. let it be, we have more pressing matters to address
Quite a same thing happened just a few days ago to one of our clannies on Teon (let's call him X). After waiting for few days to get the quest bosses, finally all that was left was Baium. X went to the last floor of the Tower of Insolence and camped the boss for few hours (we knew the respawn time more or less) along with +10 other players waiting for it to respawn. Finally after Baium got up, a known group of 'infameous' and 'suspicious' characters got there faster than any known and ordinary ally and blocked access to the RB.
No one got the quest time. No one.
X decided to quit the game and deactivated his account, sold his items and just said goodbye.
For the first time since I've been playing this game (gonna be 1 full year in 2 days; oh yes, I lvl up slow) I'm actually afraid to reach lvl 75.
Hmmmm I never thought that the 2 sided server war would end up being the legit players Vs. NCsoft.
What is really funny is that when you have people who you are in a two-way war with PM you with "Are you messing with the farmers, if so we will not fight you". Even enemies are leaving each other alone just to try and slow the farmers down.
Just goes to show how big a problem this has become, and how even a server united can't fight them alone. All we can do is kill them and go red, and potentially drop gear.
NC is the only one who can fully stop them, and this problem is way out of control.
Come on people we all know they don't care, they never have cared and they will continue not to care as long as China continues to support their profit margin. The professional RBfarmers as well as the run-of-the-mill manor farmers command far more respect simply because of thier numbers and the dollars they bring to the game. Period.
Were it not so you'd actually see NcSoft take a stance and actually enforce the EULA. The bot problem is far worse now then it ever has been in the past. Every part of Aden there are bot groups endlessly running off one guy. They are there 24/7 all the time everyday. For us, even a casual player like myself it's not hard to spot them Something that NcSoft can't seem to do though. It take me less then 30 seconds to identify a bot group. Most of the time they are the one with names like "dghfkishfsjdh01, 02, 03, ect..
Remember this is a business to them and they will do whatever is necessary to keep it going. Even if that means they have to sleep with the enemy. NcSoft is not blind, they just know where the bread is buttered. NcSoft will NEVER do anything about this problem, ever. Empty words, deleted threads, sub-standard customer service will always be the result when you attack what they have come to accept and realize what has become a necessity. L2 NEEDs the farmers to stay alive. Period. You do the math.
L2 has cancer. The "Body" is sick but the mind (NcSoft) is in denial.
In the end I do think that posting here was a good idea but really I don't think that the end result will be anything constructive. NcSoft is too busy burying it's collective head in the sand, deleting posts and ignoring some of it customer base to take action. The only way we can "vote" is not to re-new our accounts. This is what I indend to do. In fact I know of at least 20 people who are going to do the same. Even if losing me as a paying customer means nothing to them as least I will know that they failed in thier duty as they know.
you say 30,000 were banned, how many in the past 3 months?
Does it matter? Because no matter what number they give, will you be happy with it?
The game is now 2 years old. 30,000/24=1250, divided by 8 servers that is on average 156 accounts banned per server per month. That is about 17 bot trains banned per month per server, on average.
That is not enough, when estimates are that about 50% of each server's population is farmers.
To have an effect, they would have to ban about 8,000 - 16,000 accounts per month, which would be 1,000-2,000 accounts per server, i.e. about maybe 25%-50% of the farmer population.
The people that made this posts are the ones that love L2 the most. They care about this game, spend most of there free time in it, but expect a cheat-free game in return.
Im am here since day 1 on Teon, and since day 1 the situation is onlygetting worse.
Its a slap in the face that ebayers and botters outgear and outlevel legit players that are playing since day 1.
And those cheaters are ruling the servers of course,as legit players cant compete.
The boiling point has been reached with the raidboss farmers, making all high end content game unavailable. Say goodbuy to your subclass.
I hope some people will feel the pressure now and finally wake up.
And they are doing what needs to be done, it just takes time.....
It takes too **** long. When somebody reports a bot train, a GM just needs to have a LOOK at it. Standard bot trains are so ridiculously obvious. I am not talking about the raid boss farmers (many of those toons are manually controlled, not bots), I am talking about your standard Wall of Argos or wherever bot train. Get a report, LOOK AT THEM for five minutes or so, see that they are all on AF (and stack on top of each other, which is something a standard game client does not allow), see that they switch target and immediately run to a different mob once you mess with their target, WHAMMO, banned. That's enough proof. Just that somebody answers when you pm the bot train leader is not proof that they are NOT bots. Actually seeing how they kill the mobs and run around should be FAR more important than the "somebody answered the GM messsage" test.
Obviously the current way of "testing" reported 3rd party program users does not work. It has not worked for YEARS. Time to change it, time to give the GMs more freedom so that they do not have to say "well, it sure looked like a bot, but somebody answered my message, so I could not ban them".
What is so hard to understand that..... For NC to take any action, that an account has to fail every test the GM's do in order for them to take any action?
I respectfully want to point out that after two years of bots and farmers infesting this game and the situation getting worse and worse, the "tests" GM have to do quite likely just don't cut it.
So maybe it's not we who should wait for the GMs to do their testing, maybe it's the GMs who should change their testing procedures.
As I mentioned, this continues to be a priority for us -- our level of commitment to this issue has never waned. We will continue to investigate and take action against players who violate the User Agreement. However, when you report a player, it does not result in an instant ban; investigations do take some time.
I'd like to re-post these two Q&As from the official thread as a reminder, as I have seen these questions come up:
I reported a bot [time frame] ago, and they are still playing. Why did you ignore my report?
i believe this is generally the problem right here. whatever your methods are, they dont work very well.
i was petitioned back in c2 for botting because i ksing some mobs. i get a gm window up and he started asking me questions such as what my class was and what level i was. if thats seriously your method, then you wont be banning many people at all. alot of the people that use third party programs are at their computer or have some sort of warning device when someone comes in range. of course they are going to tell you they arent botting. its fairly obvious when you see a group of 5-6 people all running together attacking the same mob non stop for hours on end that they are botters. no questions need to be asked, no porting or anything. just ban those accounts. in instances like thats its better to ban first and ask questions later. if the person writes an email and complains you can easily look into it and overturn if need be. i'm sure you could find many people on each server willing to walk a gm around and point out all the bot groups for one day.
if someone petitions buffer class such as prophets, se's, ee's, sws, or bds, it should be real simple to check in on them. just check their buff and chat logs for over a period of 2 hours. if you notice that a class is buffing lets say every 18 or 19 mins on the dot, never missing a beat for multiple hours, guess what, its a bot on a third party program. if a recharge or heal class keeps getting the same pm and instantly giving the same result, its a bot on a third party program. i really dont see how its that difficult.
you see people have become pretty discouraged over time with the petitioning system and have probably just given up on it all together. that tends to happen when you run by the same bot crews day after day and. probably 60-70% of the buffer class on kain are played on third party programs. i know its pretty **** obvious to me when someone has a walkered buffer on them, i'm not sure why it isnt so obvious to a gm.
you really should just go ahead and make all of the bot programs legal so everyone can be on the same playing field. the general perception is that you do little to nothing about third party programs and i must say that perception is right
It is really really disheartening to see the exact same toons farming the raid bosses since day one of c2, that have been reported by myself and my alliance members day in and day out...are still raiding the raid bosses.
There’s a blade dancer running around Aden, I saw this guy in Cruma Tower in PRELUDE . NPC001. I don’t know how many times I have reported that guy, but this is 2 years on now, and the farmer is STILL running around with 8 botted toons behind him. Any investigation into a blatant EULA violator that takes longer than 2 years to come to any conclusion, has some serious flaws.
The exp-spot farmers aren’t the big issue in the game at the moment, granted they are breaking the eula, and they are having somewhat of an effect on the game economy, but they are not as detrimental to the game as the raid farmers are.
The raid farmers are locking out the majority of the high-end content for this game.
My alliance spent 8 hour camping lillith, after we had ninja'd a dusk victory to try to screw over the raid farmers...guess what...they still turned up, and tried repeatedly to PK us. This went on for about 5 hours, when we finally killed them as the raid boss spawned. At about 1/4 hp , the farmers port into lilliths den with about 6 groups, and pk us all...and steal lillith.
This is the same for every single raid boss that the Ondbey clan farms. They have toons logged out next to each boss, and cycle through them all on a 3rd party program with alerts notifying them what boss is up and where. They can do this cycle through most if not all the bosses within 2 min as they aren’t actually logging a client in, it’s a program that has no graphical interface ala lineage.
There is no way for us to get stage 11, 12 or 13 crystals other than paying 150-200m adena for them, and buying them OFF THE FARMERS. DOES THIS NOT SEEM WRONG TO YOU ?!?!!!?!?!???
There is no way for us to get any S grade armour’s. Those who do get the parts, have either been supremely lucky at the expensive of a stolen boss from farmers, or have themselves paid the farmers ludicrous amounts of in game currency, amounts that no normal player would otherwise be able to attain without buying the adena from a RMT company.
We have tried literally everything possible to get rid of farmers on our end. We don’t buy adena, we look harshly on those who do, we pk the raid farmers and try to steal the bosses when possible, we even try to grief them when they raid…NOTHING STOPS THEM ON OUR END.
We are literally powerless to protect and experience any of the games high end content. The farmers and RMT companies have made sure of it….you pay them a ton of cash, or don’t get the goods.
"I buy virtual gold all the time," he says, adding, "I have no problem with it. I'm a supporter. I understand that my position on this is different from our sole corporate perspective. But anyway, I participate in it."-- Richard Garriot, President, NC Austin
(Source: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/42/8 )
Heh, nice quote Ernesto. :p Thank god that person isn't directly in charge of L2, or it might be even worse.
Either way, what needs a change is the banning procedure if anything is going to happen. It needs to be easier, it needs to be possible to hit false positives (I have no problem being banned for three days while GMs re-trace that those adena I transferred between accounts without getting anything in return did indeed go between two pretty frequently partied accounts) without being met by a storm of complaints if it means cleaning the whole thing out.
I really wonder what this game would be like without RMT.
only 90 replyes so far. thats way to low. 20 of them are from ppl with 6000 + posts thats only intrests is to make that post count as high as possible with no clue about endgame at all. for good sake that are in their lvl 20is and 30is. it take a lol weak to get to lvl 40 nowadays wich shows hows terrible players they are.
I've given up fighting raid boss farmers. I've given up complaining to NCSoft. Because after more than 1 year of fighting these raid boss farmers, and petitioning them, nothing has happened.
So like so many others, I'll just end up quitting in frustration.
The people that made this posts are the ones that love L2 the most. They care about this game, spend most of there free time in it, but expect a cheat-free game in return.
Im am here since day 1 on Teon, and since day 1 the situation is onlygetting worse.
Its a slap in the face that ebayers and botters outgear and outlevel legit players that are playing since day 1.
And those cheaters are ruling the servers of course,as legit players cant compete.
The boiling point has been reached with the raidboss farmers, making all high end content game unavailable. Say goodbuy to your subclass.
I hope some people will feel the pressure now and finally wake up.
thats way to low. 20 of them are from ppl with 6000 + posts thats only intrests is to make that post count as high as possible with no clue about endgame at all.
You might notice that most of us don't spam for our post count - might I point you to the first 5k+ poster, and porbably most incessant and constructive complainer, LC666 (and no, that doesn't mean I've stopped disliking him :> ), who also happens to play in end game?
Just because someone isn't high level doesn't mean they're not aware of issues with end game: It doesn't take personal experience or a rocket scientist to figure out that pro farmers breaking the subclass quest for people blows and needs to be changed.
I think it's hard for you, one of the only admins thats seems to care about this issue, has to keep up the appearance of NC's image. We do appreciate your responses... but they are so NC like... we all heared most things before.
We need some concrete show of support from our game developers/support/ CUSTOMER SERVICE.
i'll give you an example of a problem that most players do not understand.
I myself reported 3 groups of bots for 3 days straight while i was hunting in that spot.. i actually spoke to a gm 2 times during my 15 reports I made. There was NO DOUBT whatsoever that those bots wern't bots. yet now about 6 months later those bots are still there at the same exact spot 24/7.
Same as all the good catacomb rooms being overrun by bottrains / farmers. go check TOI 8f.. 24/7 farmer groups there...
24/7 every hour of the day... bot or not.. no human can play 24/7.
Lot of us players have reported those bots/farmers multiple times and months after reports.. those same players are still there....
There are some stupid policies in place that are stilling their hands on bans - those need breaking down, but of course they won't listen to us about their own policies. :/
I think a good solution to this problem would be for experienced veteran players to help the employees of NCsoft detect these farmers/bots. Real players should be going with NCsoft employees to hunting areas showing him tricks on how to be 100% sure if someone is botting, or if there is a bot party. To make sure their is no corruption, the veteran playr would be doing this on a server they do not have any characters above lvl 20 on their account or any associated accounts.
There are many people who would volunteer for something like this. I would volunteer. If I could have a real live conversation with a GM/bot detector I aom sure I can provide them with bot detection techniques which are not being used as the bots that I self test never seem to get banned.
The customer relations are heavily damaged with NCsoft. I believe that if NCsoft works with players to resolve these problems, people will be alot happier and will see constructive progress in the battle with these bots/farmers that are slowy killing the dynamics of this game.
I have posted on my secondary account as I let my primary account expire due to severe packet loss issues on bartz server, and only bartz. I have some characters on devianne that I play while lag is happening and I have no issues, with packet loss.
Can someone from NCsoft possibly elaborate on a solution to this bot/farmer problem that involves the players and the NCsoft staff working together? If we work together we can solve this. If things continue the way they are going, the relations between us will only deteriorate further.
SO PLEASE SOMEONE FROM NCSOFT RESPOND TO MY POST TO SAY IF IT IS A POSSIBILITY OR AN IMPOSSIBILITY AT LEAST.
To be honest, I doubt that the GMs don't know how to tell as-sure-as-you-can-be that someone is a bot or farmer. ¬_¬: They're not dumb, just restricted. IMO.
I really wonder what this game would be like without RMT.
It would be like the PTS, only difference would be it would take more dedication to reach the top levels, which is one of the things I love Lineage II for, legit top levels deserve respect, their hard work shows and has meaning unlike cheaters.
I agree with you alot, I do believe the staff want to try, I know they love l2 too, having talked to Miykael on the PTS now and then, its just some stupid things holding everything back. Like you say, I too would gladly wait 3-4 days if not a week or so if they had suspision on me. Better to see things done than seeing nothing at all imo :eek:
Either way, what needs a change is the banning procedure if anything is going to happen. It needs to be easier, it needs to be possible to hit false positives (I have no problem being banned for three days while GMs re-trace that those adena I transferred between accounts without getting anything in return did indeed go between two pretty frequently partied accounts) without being met by a storm of complaints if it means cleaning the whole thing out.
While i believe things do need to change, i don't feel they need to change in a way that would bring about more false positives.
Widening the net so you trap bots and the legit players isn't the right direction. I for one wouldn't want my account caught in this type of net and then wait for months, for all of it to be sorted out.
Sorry, its still ironic when reading the "other" threads, and seeing the people in either sigs or other posts doing things like
"WTS - 7x Titan / Hawkeye sub"
"Selling necklace of valakas $ or adena"
etc.
LOL, and those are people who are in heavy support of this.
That's unfair and in no way correct. There are maybe people who post stuff like that in there, but to say that's the only people who support this, is plain wrong.
No, but why post something like that then. Keep to the facts and be happy that people care and the community on the server/servers? is trying to do something.
I can't shake the feeling we are the NA L2 lab rats being put understress for no reason other than to test the limits of our torelance.
So let me just state this. I, Spowned Bartz Soul Taker Hero play L2 for fun and therefore have no interest fighting uncountable nameless, faceless professional foes whose only interest in this game is amassing financial gain for their employer. To fight such a foe sounds entirely like work to me and I already have a job I am happy with.
Personally, since I do not ebay and never will, I dont care for regular farmers much. Im quite used to the sineater quest atm.
The raid boss farmers are a pain, indeed. They need to be stopped - but, since a lot of the toons on the raid are real players (with bot assist anyway), that would be a bit more tricky to ban.
What really bugs me is players botting. All those botted healers and buffers, so obvious. They ruin competition, they ruin the pvp, they ruin ppl interest in the game. How many live prophets you know? I can count on one hand.
Banning ebayers would be a nice thing to do too.
Account sharing is showing how low you can go on this game (just check erica Foruns on www.l2blah.com (http://www.l2blah.com) and see how is the recall war going and be amazed.)
Anyway, dont thing it is happening. Thats real sad. It was on Devianne that a coolbaby001 got hero title? lol..
It's trully amazing how well these forums are policed, especially on a holiday.
If the forums were treated the same way as conditions ingame, I think, 9 out of every 10 posts would be an EULA violation, and these posts would be allowed to linger of months before being removed. Once removed the same person would create 2 posts under a different name and the problem would keep spinning out of control.
Perhaps the forum moderators can switch places with the GM staff and clean up the game for us.
The raidboss farmers are not farmers cause they generally dont use "bots".... they are just legit players that have the skill to stay up 24h 24/7.... :eek:
"WTS - 7x Titan / Hawkeye sub" ---> thats [removed name] on Bartz.. he is disturbed in the head... don't use that as a comment cause he ust likes to get attention everywhere he can.
The game is now 2 years old. 30,000/24=1250, divided by 8 servers that is on average 156 accounts banned per server per month. That is about 17 bot trains banned per month per server, on average.
I apologize, my original post didn't clarify -- it's 30,000 accounts since we first announced a number last September, not since the launch of the game.
The game is now 2 years old. 30,000/24=1250, divided by 8 servers that is on average 156 accounts banned per server per month. That is about 17 bot trains banned per month per server, on average.
I apologize, my original post didn't clarify -- it's 30,000 accounts since we first announced a number last September, not since the launch of the game.
still the same bot groups running around for OVER 6 months at the same location. I would like to invite you or any of the GM's to follow me around tonight, give me a PM or whatever ingame and I'll show you bot/farmer groups all over the map.. all popular hunting spots.. new highlvl ones and the older spots also, almost every catacomb...
LOL..I'm sorry (no offense) but the credibility of this statement must be questioned. I know from my own experience that the same farmers are in the same areas since C2. The same bot groups are in the same place every day all day 24/7 with no change. Even if it is 100% true then all that really says is that L2 is sicker then we all thought. If 30K accounts can be banned and we still have the situation we have today...well...wow...just how many bots ae there in each server? 100K? 200K? I mean, they ban 30K and the bot population didn't even blink...?
I play this game for quite long now, and I have the bad feeling that NCSOFT does not do it the right way .
We all complain about bots and pro farmers, all they do is
to generate adena/items for real life money via well known web site that I will not mention here .
We conplain since C1 (or maybe prelude) and the answer is always the same : "We do our best, but it's hard to sort them out, but we do a nice job as we banned XXXX accounts recently"
Let's be honest, your best is not enough, when you do your best for 2 years long and the problem is still here, any wise person will think about changing the methodology .
Now, that we all know that your "method" to hunt bots is totally unefficient, let me propose you a way to catch 95%+ of botters in less that one month .
Just modify very slightly the L2 network protocol (as done in C1,C2,C3,C4 and I think in C5) to add an optional field in a existing packet .
Once it is done, all legit L2 clients will send that new field in the packet X, but bots will not, and of course the server just have to log the account that does not provided this new optional field.
The most important is to not complain and deconnect the bot, leave it connected and do not produce any warning, just log.
This way, boters will not know they are traced and will continue to use the bot programs.
After some times (such one month) mass ban all accounts that used a bot (ie logged as bot thus not sending the new optional field in packet X)
I can assure you that this way, you will catch 95%+ of botters .
The game is now 2 years old. 30,000/24=1250, divided by 8 servers that is on average 156 accounts banned per server per month. That is about 17 bot trains banned per month per server, on average.
I apologize, my original post didn't clarify -- it's 30,000 accounts since we first announced a number last September, not since the launch of the game.
Mistryl.. Please come with me on a trip to Bartz.. I'll show you the country side.. we can go have a snack in the Garden Of Eva.. I hear they have a great Chinese restaurant overthere.
Mistryl.. Please come with me on a trip to Bartz.. I'll show you the country side.. we can go have a snack in the Garden Of Eva.. I hear they have a great Chinese restaurant overthere.
m,ystral one trip to dvc or any high leve lcata on bartz i can show you 300+ farmer accts or we could just do orc land + dwarf land + dark elf spiders nest and get the same ammount even south of dion. please have a gm message me in game i will show him plenty of bots i will even show you the main farmer boss
Thanks for all the trip invitations. ;) This is the sort of information that we ask for in the official bot detection thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=573737). Please post those problematic areas there, and include your server (but not any player names), and that would be a huge help to the team. Thank you!
Thanks for all the trip invitations. ;) This is the sort of information that we ask for in the official bot detection thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=573737). Please post those problematic areas there, and include your server (but not any player names), and that would be a huge help to the team. Thank you!
In other words....
We cann't police all areas of the world and if you have an area that needs to be looked into just let us know.
I should make a character on his server to "meet" the mighty Darkmotion, hopefully he can show me how to play the game, cause obviously we are all too dumb
I'd really like you to to say what you think has to be done, not flame all the people who came here, ty.
Btw I saw what you wrote before it was edited, wow very cool, you getting angry that other people wanna voice their opinion here?
we are the players we can show you the bots becouse nothing happens when you go throw the suport its going to take extra effort. there is no shortage on the players side to show you guys the bots it will justtake some of your guys time. and if you cant say yes to this then pleasego grab some one who can
I replied to Darkmotion, sorry, I just clicked reply, nothing against you.
HAhahahahahaha A guy walks into a bar, flailing a huge mace, and then hits an Orc...
Orc : Hey, what's your problem ?
Guy : Oh sorry, I was aiming at Darkmotion.
Oh, and buddy, I have nothing against people who voice their opinion. I have a problem with people walking into places and flaming away... And people who aim at me while flailing a mace.
Mistryl, I think the main point for most people is if a GM spent 10 seconds in any catacomb for example, you will see almost every room full of a bot train. Why do we have to do your job for you? And one that is so extremely easy people assume you just don't care, and you may post that you do care, but your actions proove otherwise on a daily basis.
Now on topic: What do you think is a good way to help with the problem people described here?
Hmmmm, Ok, I will indulge you, since there are a lot of new peeps around, and I haven't said this in a while...
First what I know, then what I think should be done.
How it works...
Ok, here is a bit of info by HGMspam
"I can tell you this:
No one is ever banned on just an interaction test alone. The interaction test is only used to populate our suspect data base. It is merely the first step (of many) to identify accounts for further investigation. I would like to share all of the steps of the interaction test with you but some of the steps are not circumvented by the newest version of [censored] so they shall remain secret. I will tell you that any character that is idle in the game is automatically exempt from any interaction test. This means that even if you were committing some action in the game but are idle when the test is begun a character can not be tested.
After an interaction test is failed it is then reviewed by a Senior GM. The senior will then use external tools to determine if the test was accurate. (I obviously can not talk about those.) The senior will then generate a temporary ban letter to let the owner know to contact our security department. If the owner replies our security department will then review the case. If there is any doubt at all about the validity of the bot test or secondary senior investigation the account will be un-suspended. Even if they feel that the tests are correct but the account owner gives them a good story the account will be unbanned. We (as a service) treat it as a scared straight scenario. Even if they were botting we hope they don’t do it again. The security team is a multi-product team so it has no direct ties to the GM team. We do this so the security team has “clear eyes” when looking at the account and will not be made bias by GM reports." (HGMspam)
What they should do...
I really think they should be more aggressive with people in known botting areas. Not to try and aim too high (banning cluster of accounts) but ban singles...
Have 1 team patrol the known botting areas on every server. Give priority to reports from team.
Better reporting methods, and feedback to customers about their reports.
Would actually be good to see GMs in game again and not get automated responses, that's why people get angry. If they lack the resources to do so, they have to ask themselves why the player base in NA is that small/got that small and then work on that.
Now the raid farmers are the ones who really should be watched, because they take away your and everybodys ability to do high level raidbosses with your clan/alliance, they mostly don't use 3rd party software, but are played by different people in "shifts"
What can you do if they are at raids 5 mins after the raidboss spawned? I know Ncsoft says the players are their own police on the server, but no person can be asked to play 20 hours a day just to stop people like that.
Thanks for all the trip invitations. ;) This is the sort of information that we ask for in the official bot detection thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=573737). Please post those problematic areas there, and include your server (but not any player names), and that would be a huge help to the team. Thank you!
This is like part of the problem. As you can probably see, a large part of the community doesnt think that the options "ingame", "on this board" or via customer service are sufficiant enought to deal with the problems.
I dont know about the other servers but for Bartz I suggest a meeting among a 2nd tier GM and the castlelords. We do know that it is NCSoft's police not to interfer in the server-community.
It breaks down to the point that we DO need someone from NC's Staff with the POWER to get things done to talk to people that repesent the server. Castlelords seem to been that persons.
What external tools? You cannot check for botting unless you scan their computers (which I suggest doing...) or check the timings at which actions are taking place and see a pattern. I don't really think you guys are doing this so... how to check for botting?
Thanks for all the trip invitations. ;) This is the sort of information that we ask for in the official bot detection thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=573737). Please post those problematic areas there, and include your server (but not any player names), and that would be a huge help to the team. Thank you!
Mistryl,
Then I and alot of other players will be having the same problem. We get ignored.. or maybe not but we don't see any proof of the efforts we try and make. Therefor alot of player will keep accusing NCsoft to be in the same boat as the farmers.
Now my invitation still stands... I SERIOUSLY want you or a GM to contact me ingame and take me up on this offer. this will take 30minutes of your time.. I even can do it in less time. I show you several spots in no time. Saves you all the time reading your "bot thread" and you show the players of NA servers your goodwill. I know this isn't a hard thing to organize, just takes your cooperation.
I do understand this is not something yo ucan do daily, but atleast make this a 1 time occasion, and show the people that you want to work with the players.
all those reports on the bot thread and ingame reports don't seem to work... at least thats how we players see it. Hence Bot's being at the same place hunting for over 6 months after being reported at least 15 times by myself.. and they are still there.
Ok, lets call them "copy and paste" responses then?
I can show you screenshots of the same message, is that really always someone who types it in again and again :)?
Why is that so hard to believe?
If i had someone ask me a question and i replied with the only answer i had... Now i have a thousand people ask me the same question would my answer change at all?
Okay... If the person was real.. I would get angry after someone asked me the same question over and over.... Except these people don't! :eek:! They have no anger in them! They are super people!! :eek:
The responses are canned. I know because no matter what you write (about reporting a suspected bot) you get 1 of 3 possible "responses". I should know I've written several awful "reports" and get nothing but one of the same 3. Lets face it, the lvl of customer support is absurd...and frankly insulting to us who are "paying"customers.
No matter what you write...even if it is "hfsldhaslhfas bot dhflashdf"...you get the same set of responses.
Please use the official thread to discuss this problem. There has been quite a bit of spamming on this topic today. If it continues, we will start banning game accounts, not just board accounts.
I've never seen any threatening, or negative posts by Tsirin on other NCsoft forums besides here. It shows what the staff really think about this game and the community.
Its ironic that they will ban, and threaten players for talking about the farmer problem more directly than they would ban or threaten the farmers themselves.
It won't. There is a huge difference between American based MMO's and Korean based MMO's. Most Korean ones have a tendancy to put new meaning to the word "grind". In addition their games tend to be heavily based off of Adena / Gold / Money, etc.
The majority of NA players are for the most part lazy, and want the best of everything in short order, hence why games like WoW are popular. The amount of NA players who actually enjoy a game that takes alot of time and effort to amount to anything are few.
Lineage 3 will be the same way, their will be massive amounts of farmers right from the get go, because their will be massive desire by a great portion of the lazy NA players that will buy Adena and Characters.
The only good thing Lineage 2 has going for it, is that NC Soft does not listen to any NA people when it comes to making in game changes. I am sure if they did the NA version of L2 would have no ability to PK, no XP loss, quicker leveling, cheaper gear, and alot more useless accessories. In otherwords it would be a carebear world.
i lolled at the ceo buying adena
disgrace alltogether
GG ncsoft.
. . .
and NCSoft wonders why the player base doesn't believe them
I do wonder if this Executive is still able to speak in public about this game/company - that statement alone has ensured that I WONT play anyother NCSoft game currently on the market - once I stop playing this one NCSoft is out of luck so don't count on my $ in your pocket somewhere else; your new job is to make sure that the current players don't quit and start applying to the Warhammer or Vanguard as beta testers!
The only good thing Lineage 2 has going for it, is that NC Soft does not listen to any NA people when it comes to making in game changes. I am sure if they did the NA version of L2 would have no ability to PK, no XP loss, quicker leveling, cheaper gear, and alot more useless accessories. In otherwords it would be a carebear world.
From having played on Asian servers, I get the exact opposit feeling. NA servers are more PvP based and less grind, carebear feeling then any Asian ones I've ever played on. The feeling I get is, NA servers want to get to the killing of other players faster the the Asain ones do. There is less of a carebear mentality on the NA servers, and thats just a plain fact.
The only good thing Lineage 2 has going for it, is that NC Soft does not listen to any NA people when it comes to making in game changes. I am sure if they did the NA version of L2 would have no ability to PK, no XP loss, quicker leveling, cheaper gear, and alot more useless accessories. In otherwords it would be a carebear world.
From having played on Asian servers, I get the exact opposit feeling. NA servers are more PvP based and less grind, carebear feeling then any Asian ones I've ever played on. The feeling I get is, NA servers want to get to the killing of other players faster the the Asain ones do. There is less of a carebear mentality on the NA servers, and thats just a plain fact.
That is becasue L2 NA offers a basic open PvP game, and therefore gathers those in NA who enjoy open PvP, but we are not many. UO was an ultimate example of how if left in the hands of public opinion a game can get destroyed. It came out as an open PvP gave and eventually changed into no PvP at all, they removed nearly every PvP aspect from the game.
start from the top down mistyril
noone cares about the lvl 10 single dwarf bot trains any more
firstly remove the raid farmers, we all know who they are and ppl spending 2 months to do a quest that would take 5 days max without them in unacceptable
after that ban the 70+ argos and orc/silenos bots, despite what ppl say its not easy to get a full 9 man train to 70+ and it will actually hurt
once youre done with that then you can go back to racking up your 30k of lvl 10 elmore bots
Where did it say again that he play any of the Lineage games at all...? I'm still at a loss for that one. IIRC Mistryl clarified that the person who said this is doing something with Tabula Rasa, which I couldn't care less about.
Where did it say again that he play any of the Lineage games at all...? I'm still at a loss for that one. IIRC Mistryl clarified that the person who said this is doing something with Tabula Rasa, which I couldn't care less about.
same [censored], different game.
Such a comment by a high placed member of NC is put there to sture (SP?) things up... And ofcourse can easely be used in topics as these.
no matter what game.. for a director ( or whatever status he got) its VERY unproffesional to make a statment like that while working for a company with the ingame problems as NC has got.
Do we even know the policy of Tabula Rasa? Might RMT be allowed there?
Do you know anything about the RMT situation in GW, CoV, CoH? I for one don't have the faintest shimmer if it's similar to Lineage 2 or not.
You can't conclude from one game to the next. These aren't NCSoft's problem on a whole, but L2NA's problem in specific - big problems, no doubt, huge problems, in fact, that make me boggled at how the game can survive despite them, but what you are saying makes no sense.
If now someone at Henkel (a big German washing detergent company) says they don't mind if their shirts are a bit grey, that's no problem at all - provided they are working on a product like Ariel Color.
4. Reporting bots: Reporting bots is important, but this is not our only method of catching bots. (I will talk about testing methods later.) Reporting bots helps us identify problem areas. You should not expect to be able to report somebody and have them disappear instantly. It does not work that way. Your reports move that bot or group to a top of a list of characters “to be tested.” You can report bots anyway you like but you do have to include at least one bot name. You do not have to put in every name you see in a train for us to take action. “SoAndSo is in a bot train,” is just fine. I have seen posts where customers have said that they have had their petitions closed out because they could not list all members of a bot train. I am looking into this as that should not happen.
5. Testing Methods: We have several tests for bots. Some of the tests are obvious and others are not. Some of you that have been tested may know what I am talking about. (I will talk about false reports later.) We have some tests that are GM side only. This means it is non-invasive and you will never see it. These tests are the ones that really identify bots. Most of the bot tests you do see are very simple tests that try to break a bots routine.
Okay, about the fake reports... I'd really like to hear about this one because it happened to me. I was banned for a few days due to 'use of or advocacy of' a third party program. On one of my crafter dwarves. Now, this was INCREDIBLY painful because of the following reasons:
1) I have played lineage2 and never, ever advocated the use of third party programs, nor used any. Sure I chat about them, especially with friends, on how they work and how cheaters use them. I chat about them because many of my friends, including myself are BOT HUNTERS. We hunt the plague that has infested the game. We talk about how we've observed these bots working, and how to trap them, how to take advantage of their flaws and make them work against the bots. As far as I can tell, this is the only reason why I got banned. I got no apology for it, and that account now has a warning sticker on it. Honestly, I want an explaination for that: we're not allowed to TALK about these things amongst ourselves? How to fight these guys? How to spot them and how to defeat them, as futile as repeatedly getting them killed might be?
2) my dwarves are, for the most part, found only in Giran. I rarely take them out to level because they're one of my ways of getting adena by earning them (the others being crafting and selling, or grinding for the cash). Even so, I haven't got enough in my accounts to buy the gear to complete the A grade set of my main. Seriously, does a dwarf who remains level 47 for months on end scream BOT to your GMs? If that's the case I can see why the botted dwarves who run at the guards and suicide aren't banned. Oh, and I was told not to leave afk shops up. I was told NOT TO USE AN INGAME FEATURE - THE DWARVEN CRAFTSHOP, whose purpose is to allow dwarf players to sit and craft for other players while afk or manned, because "We might mistake you for a botter." Gee, thanks, I can't play that way, huh, but all those botted dwarves running on subroutines that move around aren't removed.
Frankly, I am glad I got the account back, but I am still furious over the matter. I do not behave in any way like a bot - I chat with people in clan, respond (or not, if I am afk) to PMed requests and queries about crafts, have, on a rare occasion taken my dwarf out to level a little when I felt sorry for her, and generally INTERACT.
And yet I was banned, even temporarily, as a botter. Something I never have done, is totally against my entire moral and gaming fiber.
Had I not received the account back, I would have left - and taken my entire clan with me, because every single person in that clan is a player who joined because I told them that Lineage 2 is a wonderful game if you don't mind how difficult it can be, and to play with me.
I freely admit to running three accounts - my main, my healer and my dwarf. But I have never, ever botted or used a third party program in all the years I have played this game, from Closed Beta onward. The slap in the face that NCSoft gave a very loyal customer the day my dwarf account was banned on suspicion for botting is an insult I have not recovered from.
I love this game, but I firmly feel that because of this undeserved ban, without apology, shows that NCSoft cares more about the botters than the legit players who patiently level their characters either by two boxing them, earn their gear and adena in the ways allowed to them by the game, and enjoy it despite the disease of farming and botting.
Deleting ths post will also convince me and anyone who reads this, that the frustrated accusation I have leveled is true. Leaving it up, and saying "Sorry, we messed up, we will try harder to investigate while banning users of third party programs" will restore some of my faith in the customer service that NCSoft provides.
Oh, and I was told not to leave afk shops up. I was told NOT TO USE AN INGAME FEATURE - THE DWARVEN CRAFTSHOP, whose purpose is to allow dwarf players to sit and craft for other players while afk or manned, because "We might mistake you for a botter." Gee, thanks, I can't play that way, huh, but all those botted dwarves running on subroutines that move around aren't removed.
If this is true, im just amazed by NC.
Oh c'mon, they take Craft Shops for bots? O_o seriously. Someone plz define "bot" to the GMs...
Do we even know the policy of Tabula Rasa? Might RMT be allowed there?
Do you know anything about the RMT situation in GW, CoV, CoH? I for one don't have the faintest shimmer if it's similar to Lineage 2 or not.
You can't conclude from one game to the next. These aren't NCSoft's problem on a whole, but L2NA's problem in specific - big problems, no doubt, huge problems, in fact, that make me boggled at how the game can survive despite them, but what you are saying makes no sense.
If now someone at Henkel (a big German washing detergent company) says they don't mind if their shirts are a bit grey, that's no problem at all - provided they are working on a product like Ariel Color.
DJEEEZISSSSSSSSSS.... what does it take to get true to you people.... are you brainwashed or something????
The game, their policy, it all doesn't matter... It doesn't matter about what game he was talking...
the fact that a senior member of NC's staff goes out in public interviews talking like that, thats offending. Especially when lineage2 is in the state it is now.
but that wasn't what this topic was about...
the problem is ignorance.. or maybe blindness? Or just simply lack of customer support. Because when the players, the customers have a problem, they get ignored, banned, deleted when they come out with their problem.
Bah my other account finally expired so I have post from this one ^_^
A couple things to answer some questions that were brought up and some questions for the people raising this fuss (finally and again).
Even SS of people using Styder to glitch into Zaken, and they are still in game, and still doing it every Zaken spawn for the past month or more. Yet one person glitches into Antharas, gets petitioned by someone and gets banned like 2 days later.
One possible explanation for this TKK is that the one person who glitched into Antharas is a repeat offender who has banned for the same behavior in the past. Now this may not be the reason he was banned expendiently but it certainly makes sense to me that repeat offenders get handled faster than first time investigations since they already have one strike against them.
Separate the issue of third party programs and professional farmers. I say this because "normal" players (non-farmers) also bot and use third party programs and many people use websites that rely solely on third party programs to gather their data. Moreover, every single person that I know who plays Lineage II (including myself) knows or knew someone who has since quit (or been banned for it) that bots or botted and they did not report that person or think they should be banned. So don't confuse the pro-farmer issue with the third party program/bot issue.
If people didn't buy adena/items then there wouldn't be farmers. In fact, I would argue you should take it one step further if you are REALLY against farmers and buying adena and you should not just kill the farmers. If you know someone who has bought adena then kill that person in game over and over again nonstop. Make it impossible for them to play the game. The problem with this is again, everyone (including myself) knows someone who has bought adena and they're friends with them so they don't want to kill them. Thus, the problem continues unabated.
You can't condemn the actions with one breath and support them with another and then expect NCSoft to form and strictly enforce any sort of rigid policy based on either sentiment. I also find it ironic that people like Ernesto, who has openly admitted having farmers in his clan, supporting them, and loving having them in his clan, are now complaining about farmers. The players had their opportunity to stop the farmers at the source long ago, and they chose not to because its the path of least resistance and farmers are the source of the "fun" for many players of Lineage II because as TKK pointed out,
The majority of NA players are for the most part lazy, and want the best of everything in short order,
hence why farmers and ebaying run rampant in games like Lineage II. Kennec, didn't you do this exact same thing you're criticizing
players are now getting bored new players start play this game and as soon they hit 61 they got an +12 carnege and full majestic while we nornal players worked for years for our gear and have way lower gear
? Not saying you didn't work for your stuff, just that you passed it along to somebody else in a way that's a no-no according to the EULA
As for why nothing gets done, it does, it just takes a very long time. As I've written before, I think its becaues NCNA is drastically understaffed to deal with the farmer problem. And remember, NCNA can only be REACTIONARY because they don't control the server or client code so they can't modify the game themselves to combat the botters. What this means is that they can ONLY catch botters (and farmers) AFTER they've done something wrong. They really can't prevent it.
I dont know about the other servers but for Bartz I suggest a meeting among a 2nd tier GM and the castlelords. We do know that it is NCSoft's police not to interfer in the server-community.
It breaks down to the point that we DO need someone from NC's Staff with the POWER to get things done to talk to people that repesent the server. Castlelords seem to been that persons.
% of people that own castles compared to the % of people that don't own castles makes me think that castlelords aren't those people :) Its not like they're democratically elected or anything like that. And dealing with the castle lords and talking about banning people inherently imbalances the competition over castles....its a very slippery slope.
I offered the invitations years ago for a tour, to no avail. What actually DID work though is I drew a map. Yes, a map. And NC actually did clear out those farmers. So you could try that if you want to be proactive. Draw a map (detailed ones not circling like all of ToI or DVC or an entire catacaomb, get a map of the dungeon itself) and circle the specific rooms the farmers are always in and write down the farmer names. Submit it to support. It worked for me, maybe it will work for you.
Email edited only to show my protest and the response I got, since that's what relevant, to be able to see the relevant part of the email and to remove my email, name and the responding GM's name. No other alterations have been made to this email snippet. (I might be furious, but I'll be respectful of name privacy and keep it that way.)
The game is now 2 years old. 30,000/24=1250, divided by 8 servers that is on average 156 accounts banned per server per month. That is about 17 bot trains banned per month per server, on average.
I apologize, my original post didn't clarify -- it's 30,000 accounts since we first announced a number last September, not since the launch of the game.
That is better then :)
But still not enough to seriously hurt the bot population. Sep to May (incl.) is 9 months, so it's 30,000/9=3,333 per month, or 370 accounts per server (forgot we had 9 servers, not 8 :o ). 370 accounts per server is 41 bot trains per month per server. OK, that is more than one bot train banned per day, but when i think of how many trains I see each and every day all over the game world.......
and to think they play 24/7 in shifts or with bots... if they get banned at this paste... it takes them what..? a week to get lv60 again with a new acount and do the same for months?
In the long term, farmers would start loosing money on making new accounts all the time. They WOULD be gone, trust me.
With no farmers and bots = no money to ebay.
If you look at the ridiculous amounts of money that people are willing to spend on ebay - an account can actually stay fully clean until it's earned its keeping and still draw them a nice tidy profit.
re: the CEO thing. Yes, it makes a huge difference. There's absolutely no need for all of NCSoft to be anti-farmer personally, especially not staff that's not actually working on the game which is problematic here.
Choch, that sounds like a more worthwhile community project than spamming - could you post us a template of your map? If the people who were willing to get banned over this are any indication, then there's more than enough manpower for us to purge all the dungeons.
This thing seems to be getting a bit off-topic....
i'll launch 1 very simple question and 1 very simple example.
example: what are all those funny moving parties doing in those catacombs for example... no matter when you go there, they are there... they have names like iiiwrwriiiiinn, ffffflfnbf, bufffllfllfll and stuff like that... we all know them and see them... and they are ALWAYS camping the good rooms.. why can't the GM's see them... are you guys really are going to argue the fact they are bots?
question:
Why can't the GM's or NCsoft acknowledge they are bots? We all know it and see it.. why keep whining about all your tests whether they are bots or not? We all know they are...
If you want an efficient long term solution of the problem, adena has to start being wiped from buyers ASAP.
Something along those lines has to be done. However, this raises a whole new slew of problems, just like stricter enforcement of already existing policies would cause. NC is ****ed if they do, ****ed if they don't in these cases. Hence the status quo remains unchanged.
In the long term, farmers would start loosing money on making new accounts all the time. They WOULD be gone, trust me.
With no farmers and bots = no money to ebay.
Not true, because when supply goes down, demand goes up so the prices go up, so the farmers, while it costs them more money, make more money off of their sales.
This could therefore be altered as it is quite apparent that NA is wide open to far more manipulation than the Korean Lineage market ever will be.
I have been advocating this from the launch of L2. However, I understand why NCSoft can't give source code control to each region. HUUUUUGE development/programming problems arise.
As for the doomsdayers who say its the death of Lineage II, L2 in NA reached its peak number of subscribers last quarter, surpassing for the first time the number of subscribers at launch....
Yes we've been down this road b4 Choch .... but hey maybe we'll hit a fresh pothole and scue off in an all new direction either ingame or out. Can only start the ball rolling and wait and see.
I posted this in the other thread that Splatter started down there, but I don't want to get banned for posting about this outside of the official thread, so I'm pasting it here instead. Hopefully, it won't seem too out-of-place.
But a thread about taking out the cause the buyer.....
I guess i had a foolish thought that we could do something and take a stand. :(
A "Taking a stand against the buyers" position would most likely lead to widescale witch hunts and guilty-until-proven-innocent persecution, eventually leading to a situation where only those favored (or included in) the most powerful factions would be safe from suspicion.
Needless to say, the potential for corruption would be great, and within even those powerful factions could popular buyers find shelter.
How would you like it if someone who vehemently dislikes you accuses you of buying, encircling you with the server "stalwarts" who will kill you if you don't prove your innocence?
To prove your innocence, you'd have to, of course, provide evidence that you haven't ever bought, but since there's no such paper trail for transactions that never took place, there will be no evidence for you to provide.
It's in those environments when even the mere suggestion that you may be a buyer would taint your image forever, even if you have never bought before.
This proposed solution, if you're even able to muster the necessary force in the first place, would eliminate the most apparent buyers, but it would do nothing to those who have and continue to guard their buying habits with secrecy.
I've stated this before, but I believe that the best way to deal with this is entirely on NCSoft's side: Make the game easier. It's a rather simple concept, much like how NCSoft handles the issue currently, except "reversed."
Right now, NCSoft's plan of action is to keep banning until it gets too expensive for the perpetrators to continue their operations. For the purpose of this examination, let's assume that they do ban these perpetrators so as to not derail this discussion with that tired debate.
What I propose is that they reverse their formulas to focus on the revenue side of the equation, rather than the expenses side. By making the game easier, it plays with people's propensity to spend in a different way.
Let's say that your average L2 player makes $5 per hour working (he values an hour of his time at $5/hr), and it takes 10 hours for that player to make 1,000,000a (100,000a per hour, or $5 per 100,000a). With the current drop rates, let's say your average L2 violator (trying to use loose terminology here) charges $10 for 1,000,000a. So, for 2 hours of the L2 player's life at work, he can buy what it would take him 10 hours of gameplay to make, thus saving him 8 hours of his life (or $40 in work pay).
It's obvious by this example that the L2 player benefits from buying the 1,000,000a instead of spending more time grinding it out himself.
On the side of the L2 violator, the equation is as follows: 10 hrs. = 1,000,000a = $10; $1 = 1 hr. NCSoft's current methodology attempts to disrupt the $1 = 1 hr. rate through repeated bannings, increasing the value of 1 hr of work and thereby increasing the price at which the L2 violator must charge for that 1,000,000a. While this looks good on paper, it's obvious that the frequency of the bannings hasn't effected the L2 violators' enough, but rather have created a seperate, "unbannable" faction in the form of raid violators who don't use L2-violating devices.
Instead of focusing on that side of the equation, NCSoft should focus on the other side by increasing the value of 1 hour of gameplay.
Let's assume that under the proposed difficulty level, it would only take the average L2 player 1 hour to make 1,000,000a assuming the same wage rate ($5 per 1,000,000a). If the L2 violator were keep his price at $10 per 1,000,000a, it would be disadvantageous for the L2 player to buy the adena, rather than grind it out himself, and therefore, the L2 violator would have to charge less for the same amount of money. This would benefit the L2 player while making it harder for the L2 violator to continue operations. NCSoft would actually starve the L2 violator out by means of reduced revenue, rather than increased expenses.
By employing the same methodology (reduced difficulty) to things like item and mat drops and recipe quests, it would further devalue those aspects of the game, further reducing the means by which L2 violators could generate high revenue.
Sorry if this post has been a bit garbled. Having connection problems, and I don't really feel like expending too much energy on this if my post doesn't actually post (Copy/Paste).
One of the main reasons why I haven't set up a craft shop since C2.
Maybe I'm paranoid, but if someone doesn't like my prices, or is trying to compete with me, /gm He's botting, and bam! 7x WS down the drain, guess I'll go play WoW or something.
But a thread about taking out the cause the buyer.....
I guess i had a foolish thought that we could do something and take a stand. :(
A "Taking a stand against the buyers" position would most likely lead to widescale witch hunts and guilty-until-proven-innocent persecution, eventually leading to a situation where only those favored (or included in) the most powerful factions would be safe from suspicion.
Needless to say, the potential for corruption would be great, and within even those powerful factions could popular buyers find shelter.
How would you like it if someone who vehemently dislikes you accuses you of buying, encircling you with the server "stalwarts" who will kill you if you don't prove your innocence?
To prove your innocence, you'd have to, of course, provide evidence that you haven't ever bought, but since there's no such paper trail for transactions that never took place, there will be no evidence for you to provide.
It's in those environments when even the mere suggestion that you may be a buyer would taint your image forever, even if you have never bought before.
....
Umm...Apologetic...Sausage Kitten?
The rest of the idea SOUNDS good on paper, though really all I would hope for prices to be brought down on basic materials.
And yes, likely it was someone who was angry with my dwarf's prices (for that dwarf, in the 75a - 150a range for materials, for gear 35k to 100+k) who reported me, but seriously, the GM/investigator who banned me should be fired for shoddy investigative process. I never have and never will act like a bot. If the idea was to include totally innocent players to 'prove' that they do indeed ban 3rd party program users, they failed miserably in proving that to me, and every single person who knows me in the game.
There is a problem going directly after the people who buy adena. How can you really tell? Of course there are people we all know IGE'd, but we can't possibly identify all of them, and soon we would basically be turning into the Mods of this forum if we just lashed out at everyone we though was a IGE'er (we would get alot on innocent people).
It is pretty easy in this game to go from a nobody to someone susspected of IGE.
The game is now 2 years old. 30,000/24=1250, divided by 8 servers that is on average 156 accounts banned per server per month. That is about 17 bot trains banned per month per server, on average.
I apologize, my original post didn't clarify -- it's 30,000 accounts since we first announced a number last September, not since the launch of the game.
Yea Yea.. I just personally banned 250k bots.. Oh you want proof? Sorry I dont do that sort of thing..
You see you say you are doing all these things but the proof is in the pudding.. and seeing the same bots day in and day out for months at a time dosen't indicate to your annoyed playerbase that you are actually doing anything.
Why must players resort to spamming and assulting the boards to get a response out of NC other then "we are dealing with the problem.. thank you and play L2" It's very difficult to have faith in a company who's own main designer Richard Gerriot personally supports the buying and selling of game currencies. ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/42/8). (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/42/8 ).) If your boss dosent seem to care.. what proof can you provide that YOU do? So far.. we havent really seen any
Well guess what... hundreds of people are leaving L2 because they dont see any actual progress being made on NC's end to eliminate the problem at hand. Sure you probably will respond with "But we just gained 2k accounts" Sure.. thats just more of the problem characters preparing for the next round of bannings..Do they care? of course not.. they got another 20 accounts botting awya in the lower areas to take over for any accounts that do get banned.
Its like stopping every 20 miles to refill a punctured tire.. sure it works for the very short term but untill you actually fix the problem you will forever be doing damage control rather then making any headway.
The sad thing is.. I know the players wont actually get a decent response.. sad sad sad
which is what really breaks my brain. We're not allowed to use ingame features to earn our characters' adena? Be actively punished for it? Prove beyond reasonable doubt that we have no options beyond BUYING the ****ed ingame money because it's neigh-impossible to farm your own adena or mats because of bots? I'm not the only WS who sits in town, and lately I've been feeling sorry for my poor inactive dwarves for not running out in Aden to hunt and xp.
We shouldn't HAVE to be paranoid. We legit players shouldn't HAVE to fear who we talk to and what we talk about. Hell, just taking a look at my activity will show that while my clanmates and ally mates do indeed pool our resources, both adena and materials wise, all my accounts together barely have 10 million adena, bar the value of the materials we hoard, and the gear we have crafted*. Yes, it's perfectly possible to amass that much gear (no less than several full B grade sets and C grade and D grade) if I've been playing faithfully and dilligently over two years. The gear exists to help equip friends and alts, and fashion reasons. (Oh, Avadon Heavy looks PRETTY on DE girls, let's craft some!)
*To clear this up, the clan I run is for uber casual players - my friends - and the friends I made in game's alts. A friend runs a clan full of dwarven alts in the same alliance, and the other 'active' clan is run by my best friend for our higher-leveled friends who prefer neutrality, and the higher leveled alts of friends in PVP clans who like to hunt bots in their non-pvp/non grind time. The alliance was made with two simple reasons: we liked the stupid name and so we could chat via ally chat with friends. No more, no less. Some of the mats we have in our possession date back to open beta/chronicle 1 -like the mats we used to make several Plated Leather sets. We might be insane, but we at least do it without cheating in any form.
Varaya gave you a nice breakdown of the numbers. The ban rate is about one bot train per day per sever (a bit higher), which is really slow, even if the total numbers look big. The total numbers, of course, make it visible how much harder this problem is to tackle than many people think.
To be completely honest, I'm really tempted to start setting up shop overnight again, almost daring them to ban me for it. They're just a freeway exit or two (well, more like 5 or 6) away from me now.
It's more than a mild indication of the level of frustration felt by your players when they have to resort to assaulting the message boards despite the possibility of the perma-banning of their game accounts, or contacting media outlets and the BBB about this.
I'm sure that NCSoft has their lawyers lawyering it up in preparation for the possible impact, and that all possible defenses are being raised as we speak. But, if it's gotten to a point where you find your players not even caring if they can still play the game tomorrow, perhaps you should take a step back and re-examine the problem and possible solutions, rather than turning on the default stone face again.
To be completely honest, I'm really tempted to start setting up shop overnight again, almost daring them to ban me for it. They're just a freeway exit or two (well, more like 5 or 6) away from me now.
It's more than a mild indication of the level of frustration felt by your players when they have to resort to assaulting the message boards despite the possibility of the perma-banning of their game accounts, or contacting media outlets and the BBB about this.
Yes, yes and yes. A friend of mine saw my post and yelped "OH MY GOD you're going to SO get banned! Well [censored] if you do I'm going to go out in a blaze of GLORY, mark my words!" He's a high level Necromancer who has been playing the game as long as I have, and the FIRST bot hunter I ever met, belongs to two of the clans in our ally, and DILLIGENTLY hunts in orc and dwarf lands. He introduced me to the JOY of bothunts, turning what first began as a pastime into a full fledged crusade.
I am WILLING to lose my characters - my treasured Lilta, who I raised to 63 carefully, painfully, tenderly, with every ambition of seeing all 12 chronicles of this game, my alts, all of whom are in varying levels from 5 to 50+, all my gear, my two years of dedication - to lay this out at NCSoft's feet. That I am undeniable proof of their bot detection methods being flawed. Very, very flawed. That they should change their policies, their methods.
Maybe they'll ban me, maybe they won't. Likely there will be people who will sling mud on my character, saying that if I got banned there must be a reason for it (Well, if talking about them is a valid reason nowadays, I likely will be,) but I know if they do ban me, they don't just lose my three accounts, but those of my friends as well. That they would be FAR MORE WILLING to lose dedicated customers who pay for game time in six month increments over the bots who are the source of the plague, is the proof that banning me will bring.
I am WILLING to lose my characters
...to lay this out at NCSoft's feet.
your not alone on that one. Id gladly loose my precious bishop, with 2 years of experience in multiple fields, to make this game a better place to be for everyone. Botters and ebayers have gotten me to the point where I have actually stopped playing for a few months. I am more than willing to do another and see me and other players frustration go away and come back to see a better game.
There can be a million suggestions and ways to go to make this happen.. But everything is just words until status quo changes. Those afraid of change are mere cowards in the eyes of the beholder, the ones taking action atleast try. One can fail misserably, get up from the mud and try again and learn, or do nothing and be dumbfolded for the rest of ur life.
Quoting newton on the matter: "For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction". Since we see no action taken ingame, the past days now is the opposite equal reaction. For each action we try to take ourself, there is an equal and opposite reaction from the cheaters. For the actions NCsoft could be taking, ofc there would be reactions, but you newer know if the reactions would benefit for the better unless one try.
What scares me the most thought, is that I see some of the same answers from before, and this thread goes on (which is good imo), and there is little response from NCsoft. Discuss a little, live a little, you do more harm now being silent than discussing and meeting us somewhere halfway into it...
Thank you. That long time players like you and I, and others, are willing to do this says a lot.
I love this game, I really do. No other game has drawn me in as much as this one, and knowing firsthand how HARD it is, I've tried, even if it's just inside my clan and inside my circle of friends, to make it a good experience. I am often frustrated, especially at the botters, cheaters and ebayers. I have hunted bots, killed bots, discovered that healers are capable of getting them killed, and reported them ENDLESSLY. I have played my characters in all three accounts carefully, and as fairly as I am sure you have, ignoring the taunts of people who openly pk me and my friends, people who protect bots and farmers, for being 'stupid' to play legitimately, slowly.
It's just a game. I know it is. But I love it and getting banned had me die a little inside. The people I know in game were furious - they know that I find fun in the difficulty, the challenge, of playing legit, the pride I take in my gameplay and earning each bit of gear.
Knowing that my beloved warsmith was banned while afk shopping, on the spurious claim that I ever used third party programs or advocated the use thereof... sent a very strong message.
"That is how they repay loyal customers, the ones that do not cheat, that play quietly and don't have strong 'presence' in the server, or on the forums. They have no protection. Who's gonna miss them? They'll be forgotten."
No response, no apology, no explanation. Do we deserve better than this? Yes we do, but NCSoft doesn't seem to think so.
This is the sort of information that we ask for in the official bot detection thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=573737). Please post those problematic areas there, and include your server (but not any player names), and that would be a huge help to the team. Thank you!
What really bothers me the most mistryl is. Doesn't the GM team know where these places are? I mean they do the daily walk throughs in the gaming world.
It shouldn't be the players job to inform the GM on something they should be doing from the start. Are you guys that short handed?
my favorite part of this game is seeing the same bots in the same spot farming 24/7 for 2+ chronicals.. how is that not obvious to GM's?? i mean really... its not that hard to see an obvious auto following farmer party to ban them.. ;/
Oh and i would ban raid boss farmers for taking advantage of gameplay...
The Letter
This is in relation to the events that happened here Monday. Did I notify moderator on several threads? You bet I did. However, I didn't do so until people started spamming that letter in random threads. After several, I left to go shower and do yard work. The threads would've all been deleted anyway. My actions made absolutely no difference.
"The method is the message"
I had a college professor that used to say this a lot. I don't even remember the class; it was 24 years ago. However that phrase stuck with me for some reason. Why is it relevant, you ask? Well, simply this: I agree with the message 100%. The method, however, left a bad taste in my mouth. The message was, essentially, to get rid of the rule breakers. However, the forums rules were continually and knowingly broken to post that short-lived message.
"The method is the message" (needs repeating)
Do those of you from the other forum honestly believe that we disagree with the message? If you do, you haven't been paying attention. The "no bot post" rule is here because we've been hammering that topic; not ignoring it.
I find it ironic that the repeat posters did so expected to get banned and then were shocked when it happened. If you want to be martyrs, you do so knowingly and willingly. No one should've been surprised about the outcome. I was, however, surprised about the account banning. I believe that was over and above what was required. A truly bad idea.
Forum vs. Forum
I think very few people want others to stay away from these forums. Generally, new people are welcomed with open arms. However, where we have the biggest issue is when we try to point out that someone is breaking the forum rules and that person goes on with it anyway; usually full of arrogance. Fine, go ahead. Those kind of people flameout quickly here and are soon forgotten.
"You can't insult/criticize NCSoft"
O RLY (like you kids always say :p). We've been doing that for quite some time. I use to have the most interesting conversations with AshNC in PMs. They were always started from an argument of the forums and were never friendly. I'm still here. I've PMed Tisirin, Ash, Sarge, Mistryl and Spam over many occasions; usually complaining about something. I'm still here. Like someone else already said, you just have to be smart about it. I ain't no rocket surgeon but I'm still here.
"Politics are messy"
Yes and no. People can make politics messy but take a look at the Hindemith forums and you'll see how they can also be done somewhat tactfully. Calling someone "[censored]" or "butthurt" just isn't much of an insult anyway. It accomplishes nothing. The best insults are the ones you can say in front of your grandmother. I remember the 1988 vice-presidential debates (Dan Quayle vs. Lloyd Bentsen):
Quayle: ... I have far more experience than many others that sought the office of vice president this country. I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency. I will be prepared to deal with the people in the Bush administration if that unfortunate event would ever occur.
Moderator: Senator Bentsen.
Bentsen: Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."
That statement was what most people remember about Senator Bentsen until his death last month.
People should post where they feel most comfortable. This is not "our house". No one is the "outsider" here. We all play L2. All are welcome. Post count means nothing. I hope that many of you that are new here stay.
And, in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."
The "no bot post" rule is here because we've been hammering that topic; not ignoring it.
Did you even read the letter? Because if you had, you'd realise it was never ment to talk about bots, but about NCsoft. As it says in the letter:
"When a farmer/botter is reported consistently for a month, and 6 months down the road that same farmer group is in the same spot farming it shows that NCSoft obviously does not care about their legitimate customers nor have the ability to enforce their own rules. If NCSoft can not maintain control of their own game environment which they have ultimate power over, how do they expect their customers to do so and have fun playing the game they love in the process?"
or also:
"Yes, I might be difficult to catch every farmer/bot group running around but when know groups are continually farming raid bosses and are around 6 months later after being continually petitioned, it shows a serious lack of dedication to solving the problem on your part."
It was ment to wake up NCsoft - Legit Bartz players have tried and tried to no avail, even I have tried to no avail. We do not see effort from NCsofts side. We know the bot topic is hammered, we even say so in the letter:
"All these issues are well known though so there is almost no point in continuing. This letter is just to inform the people at NCSoft that there are people who care enough about this issue to take things a bit further. We have tried to PK the bots off to no avail, we have tried to report them repeatedly to no avail, we have tried to outrun them to raid bosses to no avail. It is time for you NCSoft to step up and do the professional thing and deal with this situation."
The message was to tell NCsoft how much we care about this situation, be it late I think not only bartz agree to this. Agreeable it was not a good idea to sign it, but hey, Id do with a minor forum breach if it helps for a better lineage. I might break one forum policy rule, there are still hundreds of people breaching the EULA, admitting to bot and ebay etc. ingame.. I can live with my one breach, can NCsoft live with their silence I have repeatedly seen over 2 years? :mad:
The letter starts with words that say something like: "Whether you know it or not, you're affected by bots". It is about bots, and the way (or lack thereof) NCSoft deals with them. It doesn't clearly distinguish between farmers and bots (bad move) in the first few lines, and it proceeds to be as unconstructive (albeit well written) as it started.
NCSoft is awake. They know. Whether they care or not, whether they CAN or not, is a different matter, but the ignorance of believing that they could possibly not know that people are ****** off with the situation is amazing.
At this point NC should know how the TRUE players feel, may i ask what are you planning ? and no more "we are working on it..enjoy L2" because lately we don't.
ty
The "no bot post" rule is here because we've been hammering that topic; not ignoring it.
Did you even read the letter? Because if you had, you'd realise it was never ment to talk about bots, but about NCsoft.
Did you? Then you'd realize that it was removed for discussing bots. Thanks for not reading my post, however.
It mentions bots because its one of the biggest problem we all see about NCsoft. I doubt people would be this angry if it was about falling down in catacombs making you loose all your HP for obvious reasons, same as seeing the same bots for 6 months and it being so obvious they bot, its something we feel needs to change.
Yes, the letter mentions bots, but here are no discussing it, we know the problem is there, if ncsoft sees it or not, as it says so in the letter there is no use discussing it, something even regulares here say, its beating a dead horse even more. Its a letter to show our concerns about the issue, and asking NCsoft to do something, and if something is done some things need to change because the action taken today is hardly visible.
obviously we can go back and forth, up and down about if it was about bots or ncsoft or whatever, I read it one way, you read it another.. I hope for a genuine answer from ncsoft and action ingame because thats where I play (not insinuating u dont, but peronally, ingame is more attractive than forum for me, I only post here in hope of making the game better).
So we can go in circles or just leave it being different, i wont reply u again atleast, I dont like to feed trolls
The letter failed to make clear that you were worried not about bots, but rather about the policies and issues within NCSoft.
The only thing they can do right now is an honest admission like "this is too big for us", but with the way they communicate, I don't think they can make that.
This proves to me that you didn't read my post at all. You saw my name and made sweeping assumptions about what I said. Here's a passage from my post that you missed:
I agree with the message 100%.
Are you getting it yet?
I cannot comment on what the letter was meant to say. I can only comment on what the letter actually said. I don't know the original poster of it. I've never read anything by him before that I remember. I cannot make assumptions about his personality. I agreed with what was written. I cannot stress that enough.
But, just dismiss this as trolling if it makes you feel superior.
bots and farmers have to be mentioned in the letter, at least at the beginning - or else the problem wouldn't be clearly stated or illustrated. After all, the letter wasn't just meant to address NCSoft alone, but the general public outside of the game.
With that in mind, what I gathered is it's not just the little easy-to-train bots in the newbie lands that are the problem, but the professional raidfarmers keeping people from being able to advance further in the game. It's not just the bots any more.
Now, I remember the professional raidfarmer group that USED to exist on Kain, Two over One. They literally would wait till anyone was in the midst of raiding before showing up and killing everyone there THEN killing the boss. They'd also kill the raidmobs so quickly that they often kept people from raiding at all. From what I know they were mostly manned, probably with healer/buffbots.
They were eventually banned due to the SHEER NUMBER of complaints and petitions (so no, I don't think we on Kain are really as bad as everyone claims to be, we hate the profarmers too). One day, just poof. Gone. Others took that group's place though, and some vanished, or just reshuffled into the high level 24 hour botfarmer trains that hunt in TOI and Giant's cave.
So with that in mind, I really, really don't understand why does NCSoft say that 'raidfarmers are not illegal' but banned that group? 2/1 were manned raiders sprinkled with healer/buffer bots with repeated ganks and do the exact same thing the raidbots/farmers do now - keep anyone else from raiding.
Fact is, NCSoft seems rather inconsistent in its polices, given that. Are they part of the game or not? I feel though that clear answers may likely not be forthcoming.
xTwoOverOnex Now is a Raid Boss clan on Lionna and completes with WelcomeBeyond for Raid Bosses. They are both housed in the top 2 competeing alliances of the server.
Now Im in one of those alliances, but i still agree with what was written in the letter.
Oh btw i forgot, 2/1 and WelcomeBeyond made an agreement, beyond gets the server monday/tuesday and 2/1 gets it thursday/friday and beyond sat/sun and then 2/1 mon/tue ETC.
I read your post, I saw you agreeing, and I don't in any way need to feel superiour (I have sticked with a bishop in thick or thin, not even thinking about rerolling a nuker just to own, its never been about owning or feeling superiour).
The fact is, and sorry if I came out wrong I often have a tendency to do so, it just seemed for me that you hadnt even read it because it looked like you missed out the whole begging NCsoft to take action or anything asking NCsoft for help, and just wanted to be a troll. I have been a close reader to this forum for two years, I have had lots of fun reading some of urs and some of many others threads. I don't want to associate anything by your name, it just came by me as trolling for only mentioning that you read about bots and didnt mention anything else, i assumed it for just being mean.
Edit: Also, some food for the thoughts.. a long time ago (dunno if its still enforced), GMs used to remove players who intensionally hindered you gameplay, like reds caming quest mobs so you couldnt do the quest. Wouldn't pro RB farmers be doing the same? Last I heard from my friends, they can't get the chests to finish off their subclass quest nor do baium because of pro RB farmers.. wouldn't the same rule go here?
I read your post, I saw you agreeing
...[snip]...
it just seemed for me that you hadnt even read it because it looked like you missed out the whole begging NCsoft to take action or anything asking NCsoft for help, and just wanted to be a troll.
There's a definite disconnect here. How else can I say that I agreed with the letter 100%? How else can I say that I disagree with the method of delivery? How is that being mean or trolling?
To put it another way, I agree and support the cause. However, if you try to spray paint the message on my house, I'm gonna call the police. That doesn't mean I'm against you.
I agree with Maline's post about Veansa as well. Drop tag or drop this cause. You can't have it both ways.
You get to do the quests, and as you just said, you get EXP.
You can't have them in your bloody alliance and say you want them gone. Decide for one of the two. If you wear their tag or they wear yours, you're in it with them.
I understand what your saying Maline, i really do.
Bt the fact of the matter is, the clan im in ( vortex for those of you on Lionna ) was not even in that alliance originaly, we were in Aurorea. We then happened to merge with a larger alliance ( chaos ) and they then invited a RB clan after we had joined. ( Chaos i mean ).
I see your point of view, but see mine as well. I agree with what was in the letter, despite other people in my alliances use of RB farmers and bots.
I see your point of view, but see mine as well. I agree with what was in the letter, despite other people in my alliances use of RB farmers and bots.
I took a quick look over at the Bartz forum on Blah yesterday. One of the posts talking about this issue had someone say "yeah, I bot but I'm not a bad guy and support your cause".
I don't get it. How can you both support this cause and benefit from what it's against?
Consequently, you should either get your alliance to expell the botters or leave the alliance. If your clan is unwilling to leave the alliance, you would be required to leave the clan.
Then you could say, you are against farmers.
Everyone, who is looking the other way and tolerates botting, ebaying account sharing, powerleveling (by illegal means) or any other way of cheating revokes his or her right to complain about it.
Farmers would have never become such a problem, if buying adena would not be so omnipresent. And it got that omnipresent, cause it is accepted in many clans and allies.
If the clans and allies had from the start kicked out everyone, who is cheating, far less people would have started to cheat too.
Someone said it, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Tolerance is bliss. You cannot tolerate even your closest friends to break the rules and then cry havoc, when others break the rules too.
What scares me the most thought, is that I see some of the same answers from before, and this thread goes on (which is good imo), and there is little response from NCsoft. Discuss a little, live a little, you do more harm now being silent than discussing and meeting us somewhere halfway into it...
Unfortunately, this thread has progressed the same way most threads on this topic usually do. I can promise that this is an important issue to us, and that we are continuing to work on it, but the general response is almost always "you are a liar" or "I don't believe you". Even when giving numbers of banned accounts the response is the same. It makes it difficult then to keep replying when the discussion always takes this turn, and that is why the forum policy on these topics was put in place.
I do understand that the reasoning behind those responses is that many players feel that our actions are not visible enough, not matter what numbers or statements we release. I can only repeat that we are constantly investigating botters, ebayers, and other players who violate the User Agreement, and they are being removed from the game regularly. We also do not limit our actions against third-party programs to just investigation and punishment. I cannot give any further information on this so as not to reveal the methods or details.
I appreciate all constructive comments and questions that have been posted here on the board. It did not take "spamming" to get a response on this topic -- we are very aware of this issue and have always endeavored to respond when possible. It is the constructive posts and statements that get our attention, and I thank everyone who has contributed those.
This thread is also degenerating into personal arguments about clans/alliances and the like, so I am going to close it now. Please continue to use the official thread to discuss this issue, and you are welcome to send me a message at any time with specific questions.