Who was there first ? The farmer or the Adena Buyer ?
Recently there was a lot of spamming on these boards about the professional cheaters. In this post, I want to say somthing about my views of the general topic and the background of it.
It does not matter, if there was first someone, asking to buy adena, or if there was first someone, offering adena for real money.
Since the beginning of the game, there is obviously a growing demand for huge sums of adena, paid for with real money.
With the numbers floating around the boards all the time, of how many farmers are there, and then taking into account the many people, who stormed the boards in the last days, I am honestly wondering, where all the people are, who are buying the products, that the farmers generate.
There is one simple fact:
If there were no buyer, there would soon be no seller and a while later, there would be no more producer. Thats a key rule of market business.
I can claim for myself in all honesty, that I never bought adena and never will. But I do not have to look far within the small group of my friends on Gustin, to find players, who openly admit to having bought adena for cash. Sometimes 50, 100 or even more millions of adena.
Some clans and alliances seem to be almost based on bought adena, having used the adena to buy clanhall and items, to outfit their group of power and to lure other high level players to join them with the prospect of getting outfitted for cheap.
Thus, I fear, that within the group of people, who recently swarmed the boards with reposts of the same letter, are at least a few people, who know someone first hand, who is not only part of the problem, but part of the offspring of the problem.
I personaly know from my own clan and ally experiences, that it is normal, to just look away, and easily accept a rather weak explanation for a sudden richness. Who is asking, where the clan got the Billion of adena, that was used to pay the new clanhall ? Who is asking another player, where that +10 sword came from that they got spare and readily rent out ? Is that all coming from "playing the market" and "getting a lucky drop" ?
Many clans got black sheep I fear, that got an item "off a friend, who was quitting" (that noone did ever know) or that they got "from a farmer" they trained. Is anyone questioning that ?
Ask yourself, how many times, you thougth "that guy must have ebayed to afford all that stuff". How many times, large clans and allies blame each others of being botters and adena buyers ?
Let us be honest for a moment and admit, that the huge farmer problem is only there, cause there are so many players (not farmers), who want the best of the best of equipment and that they want on the first level that they can use it.
Next time you complain about another farmer train, think back along your Lineage2 life and count the times, that you saw or suspected or heard about someone of your buddies to buy adena from a farmer.
As such, the problem with the farmers is home made.
J. W. von Goethe: "from the spirits that I called. Sir, deliver me!"
(german: Die ich rief, die Geister, werd' ich nun nicht los.)
Background Kitten
P.S:
In no way do I want to imply that EVERY lvl 70+ or EVERY clan with a clanhall or EVERY alliance is based upon buying adena, but the fact remains, that there have to be buyers for a market to work. So there ARE adena buyers and logic implies, that the higher you get, the more adena you need and the more likely it is to find someone, who did buy adena.
P.P.S: At the moderators:
Please do not delete or lock this thread to easily. It is not a discussion about bots, it is a discussion about the morale of people and how the problems, that we are facing without doubt, are at least somewhat our own fault. As such, I hope, that this thread is bringing in some interesting discussion, without falling into a flame festival.
Shortly after I first started playing, I was on Bartz. A friend of my wife's had bought adena. At the time, I didn't think anything of it. I knew I would never do it (and since I had the only card, I knew my wife wouldn't either), but I did not begrudge him for what he did. I will admit, it was tempting at one point.
At the same time, the real-life friend who had introduced me to the game told me about buying adena. Again, I didn't think anything of it.
Two years and a server hop later, I have changed my views.
Anyone admitting to it openly does get reported. It is not tolerated inside my clan (and anyone suspected is put on 'administrative leave' while it is sorted out).
I believe what the kitten says. We can fight this problem head-on. If we were to find those who buy and stop them, then keep them from buying, the market would dry up.
In regards to 'getting gear' or 'lucky drops' or what have you, anyone who says such things to me had better provide screenshots if they expect it to be believed.
If it were enforced better by the community at large, we could wipe this out. We should not have to rely on the GMs. We should be policing this ourselves.
Being around ebayers makes me uncomfortable - and it has lead as far as relationships with some otherwisely really nice people slipping because I'm almost sure that they did, indeed, ebay.
I think social pressure against ebayers is a good thing, but it's hard to maintain if the majority of the server isn't clean - and at this point, not even Devianne can claim that (and I believe after the Dragon trauma, they were the cleanest server for a long time).
Even worse than a server full of farmers and botters, is a server that is ruled by alliances that have ebayed adena and characters, afk powerleveled in bot groups or hired farmers to help do RBs.
Even worse than a server full of farmers and botters, is a server that is ruled by alliances that have ebayed adena and characters, afk powerleveled in bot groups or hired farmers to help do RBs.
Probably the most concise thing anyone will be able to say on this topic. Very well put Cristalina. The botters and farmers are a huge nuisance (especially the raid boss kind), but people who did not even play to get there claiming a space at the top and demanding respect for their inability to play the game on their own is nothing short of disgusting.
Its always been the buyer that revolts me, the same ones that don't look at the farmers as a problem, laugh at how they own other players and justify it mechanics wise by saying they need it to "compete."
I can't and won't begrudge someone in the third world making a living off some "rich" chump cheating. Isn't it bad enough that global economic imbalance has made it so that farming imaginary gold is a viable status elavating job in the third world ? I think farming adena would probably rank up their as one of the most boring, crappiest jobs on the planet (excluding jobs where safety is a factor of course).
The buyers are the big problem. Either everyone is buying or the few that are, are buying truckloads. I can't imagine paying anythign beyond my $15 a month to play this game and I say this having never gone more then a week without playing since closed beta.
Hey, I oftentimes will equip new players in top NG. I once gave a player 1 million adena.
Sometimes I go to DEV and give out 50k to any "real" players there.
So, it is possible for players to receive gear and money from "friends" or even "strangers". Let us all not become so totally jaded that anytime you see a new character and they are set up in super NG that they are e-bayers. (could even be twinks).
Hey, I oftentimes will equip new players in top NG. I once gave a player 1 million adena.
Sometimes I go to DEV and give out 50k to any "real" players there.
So, it is possible for players to receive gear and money from "friends" or even "strangers". Let us all not become so totally jaded that anytime you see a new character and they are set up in super NG that they are e-bayers. (could even be twinks).
/agree
Inocent until proven guilty imo.
btw it doesn't matter which came first when they both taste better with salt.
Actually, its rather sad. I was playing my first character in TI the other day and had someone ask my why I was wearing noob gear. I told him it's because it was my first charcter and I was still a noob. To that, he gave me 100k and I didn't even ask for it.
Not that I would ever ask for money. Nor would I buy it, or anything else for cash. I believe in playing the game and having fun doing it. It's not about the destination for me, it's about the journey getting there.
You can go pay the cash for the best gear, but it is so much more satisfying to say "Yes, this is my gear because I worked for it and earned it."
It drives me nuts how many people these days just want to get the best stuff and "pwn" everything. Playing the game is not about being uber leet. It's about enjoying what has been made, and sharing it with others.
Yeah, anyway, anytime I hear or read a post about someone considering buying, I voice my opinion and try to explain the facts to them.
It's not about the destination for me, it's about the journey getting there.
After the first time you run up to toi 9th, lvl for 30 min to have somebody drop party... Go to dvc pit for 10 hours straight (god bless nobles)... Spend from dusk till dawn till dusk again grinding out the next lvl... It becomes about the destination real fast. And I'm still relatively low lvl.
Who was there first ? The farmer or the Adena Buyer ?
The answers to your questions are easy:
The egg, by about 125 million years since dinosaurs laid eggs.
The farmer, by a number of years, since farmers did not start with Lineage II.
The answer to the problem your questions involve.... is not so easy.
Right now, there is no consequence for buying adena, only for botting while farming it. NCsoft does not tell us when they ban folks, nor why. Until NCsoft starts banning folks who buy the adena, AND lets the rest of us know about it, folks will continue to buy it.
"Attention Players: The following players were banned yesterday for purchasing adena; AdenaBuyer00001, AdenaBuyer00003 (AdenaBuyer00002 was banned earlier,) IDontBuyAdena00001, IManoredThisMajHelm002, MyFriendQuit004, IGot12DropsInARow004, ....."
well. its hard to say which came first. but i would think farmers came first. offereing there product. and someone thought it would be a great idea to buy it. and all down hill from there. personally i have had about all I can take. I have been in this game for a while now.Constantly rerolling new toons. still finding my place in this game after all this time. But I hate looking around seeing glowing weapons. top armor. and its one of your friends that just hit level 20 yesterday.My first toon didnt have d grade gear for a while after hitting 20. I didnt understand how at lvl 20 I could possibly spend 500k+ on a weapon.Throw a rock in dion and you will most likely hit someone that is guilty. I came back about 3 months ago after taking 6 months away from L2. and its safe to say im within a month of ncsoft losing me as a paying customer again. this time for good. lot of good mmo's coming out end of this year. or beginning of next sometime. I will gladly give my money to a company that helps the real players.Im thinking i will probably leave ncsoft all together and thats a shame. anyone seen the trailer for aion? looks amazing! but I will not be paying for that one either. for a while i refused to look at any game that wasnt ncsoft. because when it comes to making games. nc has everyone beat imo.but when it comes to helping ther paying customers. I will move on to a game with less graphics. and less farmers. theres my 2 cents :)
The Hen came first. Same with the idea that Order cannot come from Chaos but Chaos can come from an absence of order. More and more scientists seem to finally "get" this fact.
Farmers, since without them, there wouldn't be any adena to buy, wouldn't there?
My clan is pretty clean as well I think, we and our alliance are known for kicking botters and ebayers.
The most dangerous thing si when a new player pops up with his 75+ character, and has no idea how to play it. They're a threat to everyone playing with them! A great example some clannies told me the other day, when they grouped with a 76 SE, he didin't know what purify was, or what recharge does, neither did he even have the skills trained! >.<
It's actually painfully obvious that there must have been casual sellers before pro farmers rolled around - the question is just whether someone saw a business opportunity, or casual sellers could not meet the demand anymore.
MalineII has a good point that I usualy don't see brought up. The people selling adena are at fault, aswell as the poeple buying. But some forget there are legitimate players out there too who seem to say, "screw it, if he is selling for 3mill so will I". So it is not just the hen or egg. There are three fronts which must be addressed.
I would probably assume that most of the new(to the boards) people that recently rushed in to complain about it, already did all thier Ebaying, and now they want those same farmers gone. I know a guy on Lionna, he loves to kill farmers, but he ebayed more money than I can think about ever having, but since he doesnt NEED more money from them, he's happy to kill them.
On the other hand, I need lots of money, and I REFUSE to buy it, so I train the farmers and take it. Would you be shocked to learn that I dont play the market, I dont abuse the manor system for profit, and I almost never solo? Would it surprise you more then that I was in A grade by 65? I've stated many times, that the true key to success in this game for those of us who have no patience for manoring or playing the market, is to hook up with a clan that works together to make sure everyone is geared up appropriately. My talents are not in the work side of this game, my talents are in training bots, and talking smack when bored.
That's not what I was referring to. I'm just saying that nobody went ahead and said "Ima be a farmer boss" before it was clear that there was demand - and that demand was tested out by casual sellers who were looking to turn a quick buck over their hobby.
I would probably assume that most of the new(to the boards) people that recently rushed in to complain about it, already did all thier Ebaying, and now they want those same farmers gone.
Thats not at all a fair assumption. Im fairly new to the boards. and im complaining about it. I have never bought adena.new to the boards. not to the game. I think its ridiculous to pay for stuff with my hard earned money. anymore than I already pay to play the game. the people that are doing these things are doing for the reason that they are the actual noobs in the game. regardless of there level and nice gear. they cant handle the game. to them i suggest a ps2 and a game shark and they can ruin there own gaming experience. its just sad they have to ruin others game play.
A couple of observations from a noob (and the chicken came first).........
I only have 2 chars past 2nd class change and have only been playing since January this year.
This week I met 2 new couples in starter areas and gave them good NG gear sets and/or adena and supplies---because others helped me like that in January. Probably cost me 200-250k...less than i sell the plate shields for that my ws makes (from alligator isle drops the DA gets).
I've probably helped a dozen new players with stuff just in the past couple-three months---because I feel like I owe to those who helped me out (and I really did get some mid-dgrade from a guy in dion quitting--my scavi is still wearing it).
So, right on the money! Folks do help other folks--it would be wrong to assume every lvl 8 in great NG gear is a cheater.
Secondly, about this whole post. Thank you for making it. The obvious use of 'outside adena' by others has REALLY been bothering me lately. I appreciate the courage it took to raise the question about ethics on this post. Your question echoes my own very recent annoyances.
Chicken vs. egg was nice package....in economics inflation is a devastating force. The reason brig helms go for 3 million isn't that so few exist. Any number could exist--and re-enter the market as players progress and no longer need them. The net numbers of brig helms, then, goes up at a higher rate than the influx of new players....hmmm...then why the ever slowly rising prices? Ready availability of easy money. If everyone in america got 10 million dollars tomorrow in a special gov't give away--the price of a ferrari wouldn't FALL. As a bunch of new folks suddenly realized they could buy that ferrari--the price would rise. Sound familiar?
MalineII has a good point that I usualy don't see brought up. The people selling adena are at fault, aswell as the poeple buying. But some forget there are legitimate players out there too who seem to say, "screw it, if he is selling for 3mill so will I". So it is not just the hen or egg. There are three fronts which must be addressed.
The moment, your legitimate player is offering adena for sale, he automatically and instantly stops being a legitimate player.
There are three sides in the sense of "professional seller", "occasional seller" and "buyer", but there is only two sides, when it comes to following the rules. You follow them or you do not follow them. There is no way to follow the rules "a bit" or "most of the time". In that context, I make no difference between a botter, farmer, adena seller or adena buyer. They all deserve to be banned along with the 18 generations before and after them.
If you believe that casual farmers started the "trend" I think you're wrong, I've played this game since Closed beta, and since Open Beta I've met several farmers since the very beginning. All the newbie areas were infested with dark elf daggers in manticore and maingauches, none of them spoke english, except for a few choice words they picked up. I've been battling enough with them to know their intentions, with screenshots to prove it!
Anyways, the demand has always been there, since the start. The game wasn't new by the time it got to the US you know. The pro farmers knew exactly what was going to happen, it was planned.
BTW this isn't about seeing some newb in top D or something, look at higher levels, the problem is much more dominating there. I don't think we'll ever be rid of the pro farmers, not until L2 is almost dead, and that will take years. In Korea it's natural to by adena to get ahead.
Anyways, the demand has always been there, since the start. The game wasn't new by the time it got to the US you know. The pro farmers knew exactly what was going to happen, it was planned.
Exactly. And this game wasn't the first one either. That's why it looked so "rehearsed".
In the begining, there was only the hen (the player). One day, some hens decided that paying for internet usage to get an item in a game would be more costly than just handing a few bucks to somebody who already had the item.
They created the demand, and from that demand the egg (farmer) appeared. The eggs will always be there, as long as you have hens to produce them.
What is really tuobling is when you have a group of friends, and then, all of a sudden, they've gotten top grade gear. Then, you fall behind them, leaving them in the dust (TWICE).
Also, I'm wondering about the verb: "eBaying"... Does this sumarize buying adena in general? Go to google, type in Lineage 2 Adena. WHAM 100+ sites. This is where I think NC soft has got to start cracking down.
Kill the sites, you kill most of the traffic flow of the business. Then, very Few people will be buying. Also, on eBay, take down the listings even if it has the crappy disclaimer : "meerley charging for the time I spent aquiring the gold." SHOVE IT.
Farming in general is the oldest proffession (aside from one other one) in history.
In the L2 world, everyone farms, but, it's the "Big Farmers" that are the culprit.
BTW, i've gone to DEV and TI and handed out roughly 1 million adena over the past 2 years... and probably another 3 mil worth of ng stuff i had on hand.... or items in general be it scrolls/potions/whatever. Why? because when i first fired up, i received roughly the same kinda treatment.
HOWEVER.
Reguardless of what anyone says, even if they didn't go out and buy adena themselves, or even realized they were making trades or selling stuff and receiving the dirty money in return. I could easily say that 99% of us all have dirty money in out toons pockets.
Inflation is expanding, getting huge, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class migrates to either side depending on where they technically have the talent to manuver themselves around things to get what they need.
Personally i'm a [censored] salesman, i've terrible when it comes to the market. I'm worse at trying to play a bloody dwarf. I am in the poor section (course it doesn't help i'm also very unlucky).
Then there are those that play the market, have the talent for it. Can see the entire picture of it, and moves into the richer section.
What i have a [censored] coniption over is that fact that the rich can't... for the life of them ever see how someone that is poor couldn't do what they did to get where they are (legitimately). And that as far as they are concerned, it is the poors fault for being poor. Although this may be true for some, it's definetly not for all.
I've seen someone sit down and enchant things and not break anything really, resulting in selling it for large sums (which probably gets bought by some fricken cheater). I've seen these same people get full drops from mobs, and manage to do things i wish i even had the chance to do at least once. But it's never happened, i've attempted the same things with absalutely failing results. And when showing them the results, they'll even admit, bah.... bad luck or figured we did something wrong somewhere. Which may be true as some of us, to save our lives, cannot DO what others can. But they think they should be ABLE to DO what other can.
Nough blahbn, i just think to many people figured they worked for what they got, and feel that no one else should lay a finger on it. Well sure, if you couldn't possibly manage to provide some kind of help without seriously screwing yourself over, and i mean, if your in top S Grade armor with 3 weapons already, and a fellow clan member is have a difficult time getting out of his B grade gear let alone C grade, even a little assistance would be reasonable. Selfishness is brutal, it makes the one being selfish a complete [censored] without knowing it, and the one hurting due to it just that much more hurt.
I remember back when I first started playing this game. I got the cool silver game box with the paper model of a LE female in it (still have it by the way). I started on the TEON server since it was new. I can tell you right now a ton of RL money was spent on that server because there were alot of high lvl players with top bright blue gear owning castles right off the bat.
I played on TEON for 6 months. At lvl 62 I was still in BW and had +4 duel Kats. The independance day event had just ended and I had played my heart out during that event. I had 4 alt warehouses plus my own full of loot from the event. I was so happy because I knew I had enough loot to sell and up grade my gear. Then my Clan leader comes on chat and say's (third clan buy the way) he had just bought enough adena to get his A grade. Shortly after everyone started saying they were going to do the same. I got so ticked off I dropped clan and quit the game.
Some RL friends talked me into coming back to the game on a different server. I know there are people on Devianne server that buy adena. All you have to do is look at the prices of D gear in Dion and you know whats going on. I rember thinking 500k for a brig helm was a crasy high price for a helmet Then I saw the price on Devianne 3.5mil.
Since february there has been an influx of new players from a certain area who in the span of 3 months have high lvl toons with top OE'd weps and gear. They know who I am talking about and they openly admit to buying what they have on the other forums.
I spent the last month in Giran buying and selling, playing the market to afford my A grade. I have it all now except the weapon. I learned alot setting in Giran I know who the scammers are. I know who the farmers are you would be suprised who they are. I also know the people who were doing the same thing I was doing. You can get anything you want in this game buy playing the market. It takes time setting around doing nothing but buying and selling.
Unfortunatley to many players want all the top stuff right away and are willing to pay for it. As long as this game is more dependent on the gear you have than the skills you receive from actually playing the game, there will always be people who will keep the farmers in business.
I have helped out the new guys and will continue to help out the new players. this event coming up is a perfect opertunity to do this. Can't wait to see the response from the noobs I party with in the new areas and kill the event mobs in 1 AOE and then say go pick up the loot its all yours lol.
Beyond anything I can say or hear about this problem,the meanest image I've seen ,is Players sitting down in towns and begging people to help them out,selling arrows for 200 K each or whatever you want to give.
I've been playing video games since the early 80's with Ultima IV , I've never seen this,in any Game ,Anywhere.
People supporting a Dev' team with their heart and subscription and being forced to beg in order to play the Game the way it was meant to be played ,nothing more.
Imagine a mother watching her Kid playing the game,and seeing him down on the ground begging for Adena ,Stuff , or " whatever you want". What would she think of this ?
All Progress,Improvements ,Wins done in Video Games Industry these last 20 years are Blown away by this single Image.
Happened to me, the sudden giving of gear from a random person.
Start of Chronicle 2, I was in Dion remarking happily on the increased details and clarity of the graphics. This got me pulled into a conversation with some other people, and I made them laugh.
Then one of them, a Dark Elf girl, initiated a trade with me. Curious, I accepted it, and she dropped in Full Plate armor and clicked ok. Shocked, I clicked cancel first, saying there was no need. She laughed and initiated trade again, saying it was a gift 'to someone nice and funny.' Her companions chuckled, and said that I should go ahead and take it. So I did, thanking them and was in a state of utter shock and happy for the rest of the week.
Sadly I never saw that character again (she was dressed in full plate herself). I've remembered her kindness though and have on occasion given newbies in some villages gear, or adena up to 100k to start them out with. I also do random acts of kindness to people - lowering prices for crafts and sales (especially if they're willing to haggle!) crunching D and C grade for them freely, understanding that it must be worrisome to trust someone you don't know not to gank the gear. I did that again today, crunching manticore for a SK who had sold me avadon boots for a good price and had taken the time to babble with me about what gear looked nice. I also make it a point to give back gear to players (not to bots though.)
I want people to at least have a nice experience with the game, to balance out the bad, and since people are what make up the experience in the game, I try to be one of the nice ones.
This issue does get far more disgusting in higher lvls 60+, more so with the PvP freaks.
I hate it when someone in their high 60's or 70's, seem to does not care about things like going Red or Dying. Even at 1% death, that's still a lot of XP, TIME and Consumables spent just to get back where you started.
I don't know why most people wait till 60+ to start PvPing.
The net numbers of brig helms, then, goes up at a higher rate than the influx of new players....hmmm...then why the ever slowly rising prices? Ready availability of easy money.
Of course, they also leave the market via people who leave the game (temporarily or permanently), or people who store them for later (I keep one for alts, I know others do as well). So it's questionable whether there is actually an increasing pool to be pulling from.
New players with C4, constant alts and rerolls. The demand is either a constant or increasing.
Lower drop and spoil rates. Supply has decreased.
Increased levelling speed sub-40, cat/necro fever. Supply has decreased.
The prices going up is no surprise to me, and doesn't necessarily involve third-party funding. Normal market pressures would cause it.
Another problem brought up by Buyers Vs Sellers is Greed. How many times have you seen someone selling something for a rediculous price and give you the excuse that they are waiting for "An eBayer to buy it".
Buying adena is a problem, thats why we still have bots, they must be getting their income from somewhere....it could be your closest friend, a highly respected clan leader, that dwarf down the road with 3 sets of A-G armours.
The problem is that since this problem wont be easily resolved, people are trying to use it as an excuse to sell things for stupid prices. Like a guy on Dion (Teon Server) selling a clean SoWD for 12m, and if you go round the corner you will see it with an SA on it for 8.5 - 9m. When i messaged this guy to ask about his prices, he replied "im waiting for a stupid player or eBayer to buy it".
What a world.
P.S. The Egg came first, the Chicken/Hen is a crossbreed.
I actually haven't ever seen that, but only because I simply ignore shops whose prices are too high rather than talking to them about it.
Some items have prices clearly set by the availability of the materials needed to make the item. If Animal Bone hits 1k, expect to see 500k go into the price of an item that takes 50 CBP. It seems that kind of principle is easily forgotten once a player wants to buy something made of rare/expensive materials. Ebay gets blamed for normal market pressure on a regular basis.
After the pumpkin event, the price of some enchant scrolls plummeted. This was recognized as a normal market pressure by existing players. I distinctly recall, however, the impression of a newbie who had started during this slump and saw the prices slowly rise up to near their previous value. Those darn ebayers were driving up the price of enchants, I tell ya.
:eek:
Edit: last part is a clarification rather than directed at you, didn't feel like double-posting.
Some items have prices clearly set by the availability of the materials needed to make the item. If Animal Bone hits 1k, expect to see 500k go into the price of an item that takes 50 CBP. It seems that kind of principle is easily forgotten once a player wants to buy something made of rare/expensive materials. Ebay gets blamed for normal market pressure on a regular basis.
What server are you on?! I wish bones were down to 1k again, they're 2.5k+ each on Lionna atm!
Well, some of the reason is that all the bots got banned from the catas when Dusk suddenly won 7 Signs LOL! They've won twice now over the last 2 months :> Fun times indeed, but expensive!
I love people that are willing to haggle and talk to you when you're trying to sell an item, usually makes me lower the price a little :>
Many clans got black sheep I fear, that got an item "off a friend, who was quitting" (that noone did ever know) or that they got "from a farmer" they trained. Is anyone questioning that ?
I felt the need to interject here for a moment based on this section of your otherwise well written and agreeable post.
I started playing MMO's with UO ( original no expansions ). There are very few MMO's on the market I havnt played, and pretty much all the major ones ( WoW, EQ, EQ2, etc ) I reached end game content. During this time I have given away more money and items to my REAL LIFE FRIENDS then I could track. I mean when I finnally got my friend Mike to play WoW, I bought him a mount lol.
Ugg bringing me to my point anyway. I recentlly picked up L2 and decided to play( I tried my hand at the NA beta ). I had been living in NC away from all my friends for years and just moved back. The other day my friend Jose was over and noticed the L2 box and asked about it. I told him I just started playing. He said he played the game and quit months ago becuase it got boring ( as bound to happen ). He then reactivated his account ( as in on the spot at my computer ), outfitted my character, and then left me with alot of Adena ( or at least so far I can afford to buy anything I can use at my level ).
Anyway, am I to be branded an EBAYER now for the rest of my L2 gaming experience? If so I may just leave now. Account balance transfers from one game to the next have been going on with my friends for some time now. Most of you know someone in RL you have tried to get to play the game before, and if you succeded even for alittle while, I bet you spent money on them....
Anyway I think I made a valid point against your statement. Well the entirty of your post was in fact correct, this one area is flawed, as I see this happening often.
In clossing, its unfair to brand those that DO actually receive in game items / money etc from an outside LEGIT source in the same catagory as those that ebay. The fact is that these people do in fact exist, and are probably a larger player base then your giving them credit for.
No, you made no valid point against Schmuse's post, because what you and she describe are two different situations. Of course people get presents off real life friends, and of course people who quit sometimes give their gear away.
However, these are both also common excuses used by ebayers for their sudden wealth. This is what kitten was referring to.
Upon hitting level 31, my clan gave me manti shirt and pants, power boots and gloves, a crossbow and 2mil adena. I hope I don't get labeled an ebayer either. They probably gave me all that because I got to 31 without using SS lol. Btw I still don't, it's expensive and kinda feels like cheating. But I'm new, so by level 40 I may become an SS spammin *********.
However, these are both also common excuses used by ebayers for their sudden wealth. This is what kitten was referring to.
That being my point. The reason they are using it as an excuse is becuase it DOES in fact happen so often, that you can in most cases belive the person. Im not one to make up numbers without hard data in front of me, but isint it reasonable to assume that in most cases, the person may be telling the truth?
Your saying " How many of you know someone who said a friend of a friend left the game and gave me free stuff " in refrence to them lying about it and having gotten it from some other means. My point is this in actuallity does indeed happen, often in fact in my years of MMO gaiming experience ( heck we did it back in the day of P&P ! ), and I think your lumping the larger % of those that say it as a lie, when in fact I would think the larger % was telling the truth.
IT is not my intention to begin another arguement centered around the original post, as it was a very agreeable post. I just felt the need to point out that you cant assume one is an ebayer becuase they say these things, as in my experince, they are most often then not telling the truth.
Also , in regards to the original posts and its intended meaning, I agree.
Oh and as to what can first ( hen or egg ) , it was the buyer that came first. One person with less motivation told another with more he would just trade his real world money for the differnce at a value both could agree apon. Thus, a market was born.
Oh and as to what can first ( hen or egg ) , it was the buyer that came first. One person with less motivation told another with more he would just trade his real world money for the differnce at a value both could agree apon. Thus, a market was born.
I assure you that it does not happen as often as it is claimed. If a whole clan of 30 people had "a friend who quit" and conveniently left them overenchanted gear fitting just for their class, it starts to get fishy.
From a certain level, most people are "known" to some degree on their server - at that point, the friend excuse can usually be ruled out easily if the friend is not known.
I was using my boyfriend's glowy duals (which are less than ideal for my class, might I add) while he was gone from the game - but I did explain where I get them from, and nobody ever doubed they were his, especially since he actually came back in the meantime and I returned them.
Some whole clans instantly finding top grade gear when they break their level range and claiming they all had friends who quit but refusing to give their names and/or stating names nobody has ever heard about though, can be fairly safely assumed to have acquired their money through illicit means.
I don't know why most people wait till 60+ to start PvPing.
The inevitable answer to a sub-60 PvP/PK:
"I'm getting my main."
That's why.
Seriously.
I made a dark elf fighter alt because I wanted to screw around with a melee. I took him to the Elven fortress at lvl 15 (this was this weekend).
I'm in one of the last rooms when two dwarves in Bronze and some sort of pole arm came in and said "beat it, this room is ours".
They then started to draw the mobs into a corner to pole arm them. I thought screw this. I will attack them and see how I do. If I lost I would keep coming in and attacking them while they did their thing until I delvled to lv 4.
So I start attacking (oh... this hold control thing sucks by the way - had to make the macro the second time) and the guy says: "hey I have a lvl 56".
I thought "are you kidding me?" How lame is that. So I said "well, that doesn't really impress me as my main is higher". Then the other says, "well, I have a lvl 68". So I said, Mine is still higher but I'm not going to be a baby and bring my main to fight when battles don't go my way.
In any case, I lost.
However, when I came back, they were gone. **** children. No class at all. :mad:
I assure you that it does not happen as often as it is claimed. If a whole clan of 30 people had "a friend who quit" and conveniently left them overenchanted gear fitting just for their class, it starts to get fishy.
Well of course! But has this actually happened? I mean its obvous that it would be a cover story, and in fact a BAD ONE, from the start, if this was the case. My refrence was to the ones, as exampled in the original post, that are of lower / mid range in level with the best gear they can have instantlly being branded as EBAYERS. The outcome of that scenario should not be " obvouslly an ebayer ".
Regardless though you make a point. Im arguing a point I cant even prove in my own case. Honestlly I dont even know what Jose's character's name was, and I know its been many months since he has actually played the game.
The fact is however, is if I am even a moderatlly intelligent person, I can manage the money he left me so as to always be well off in game. The fact is, I will always be able to afford the things I want for the most part, during my time playing the game as I am still making money in a legit fasion. To always be thought of as an ebayer untill I get to a point in game that people stop questioning it, seems abit rude.
Your assuming someone is lying from the start. I would rather assume someone is telling the truth. While not much, its a step cloer to having abit more faith in my fellow man.
*EDIT* : Taking a moment to reflect, I relize Im only arguing the point becuase I just joined the game and these circumstances apply to me. I'd hate at this time period to be branded as an "ebayer " when I am not. I'd rather people didnt go into " lie " frame of mind on this one subject, but rather give an individual the benifit of doubt. Im sure at least partially, you can see MY personal point of view.
To always be thought of as an ebayer untill I get to a point in game that people stop questioning it, seems abit rude.
Your assuming someone is lying from the start. I would rather assume someone is telling the truth. While not much, its a step cloer to having abit more faith in my fellow man.
I agree.
Recently our clan disbanded as the clan leader was going to be away for a while. There were very few active players left so the few remaining split the 1 Billion adena figure.
I received 126+ million.
The idea that I have to justify that to someone ingame seems ridiculous. There are ways that people get money. Heck, I'm in the process of crafting two more SOM's. If they get crafted and sold then that's another 120 or so million. It is possible to get windfalls in this game.
Yes, I am thinking of not one but three specific clans - where not all members, admittedly, claimed to have a friend, but all the ones I'd spoken to, and they all without exception showed up in glowy gear. :(
Generally, if people see you working the market with your money, nobody will doubt you - which is why "initial ebayers" who "only got a little start up help" never get caught if they're smart about it afterwards, but that's definitely the lesser evil to not giving those people the benefit of the doubt.
Ebayers usually spend lavishly and foolishly, and in that alone they can be distinguished from regulars easily. The glowy gear alone is rarely enough to identify an ebayer.
I have a lot of equipment that's not really mine. I have been almost an extension of one friend's warehouse. He had a lot of D grade gear sitting around and I have a lot of lower level characters. When I hit C grade he helped outfitted two of the 5 characters I have eligible for C grade.
The equipment isn't mine and I'm mindful of that.
There are many cirumstances under which people can get gear.. not all of them mean they cheat.
Just to clarify:
I do not call anyone an ebayer, unless I know them and got reason to be suspicious. That does automatically fail for any server but Gustin.
I am not branding anyone, but I am trying to raise an often ignored and conveniently forgotten argument:
All that money, that farmers create, needs to be bought by someone. Millions and more millions of adena have to be sold each day, for the farmers to still need to create millions of adena per day.
That means, that there are obviously more than a few players, who did cheat by getting money throw ways, that are against the EULA.
Of course, there is the benefit of the doubt and of course there are such things happening as you described... so getting wealthy without effort can be absolutely legal.
What I was really trying to say with my original post, is that there are people, who got where they are now, with the help of the people, that they are complaining about now.
I do not want to say, that the recent bunch of posters, who tried to make a point with the spam-reposting of a letter, are one of those people, but I dare to claim, that each of them knows at least one of those people.
If there were no buyer, there would soon be no seller and a while later, there would be no more producer. Thats a key rule of market business.
This is true and all, but it truly doesn't help the problem at all, since there are many people who play this game for power and to be dominating, and they will do so by any means necessary. Hence the problem will persist regardless of what goes on or not, and medium/high players will get more and more pushed to turn to illegal means to even be able to "cut it" in the game.
I already advocated what the solution to it would have been, but the ball was dropped sadly by NCSoft.
Many clans got black sheep I fear
You make it sound like its just a few. There are so many its unbelievable, and it ranges from people buying for shots, to botting on the side (having unlinked characters with gibberish names run around seperatly), to hacking/stealing others accounts, to exploiting, etc.
Like always said, I can't take any of this seriously as long as a banned player can hold the mightiest of all castles, Aden. Thats like making a terrorist the president of the United States.
I am walking the dangerous line of not accusing people of more, than is obvious, even if it is blatantly reasonable.
Personally, I am pretty sure, that there are whole clans out there, who rather got a few none-cheater, than they got cheaters. And those who do not cheat, but stay in such clans, are not much better, as tolerance of cheating is in a way accepting it.
I guess, if all people, who did break the rules before, would suddenly have a green glowing name, we were in for more than a few surprises.
Despite having no proof of it, I will be so bold and claim, that a good bunch of those people, who are crying havoc for NCsoft to "fix the farmer problem" are actually those, who helped them get into the position, cause they bought their adena and did not fight them, when they had the chance.
In a way, it is like buying drugs and then tell the police to stop the dealers.... to then buy some more drugs, right after stepping out of the police office again.
Yes, it is bad, that adena sellers are even possible, but it is the buyers and not NCsoft, who are keeping them in the business.
Despite having no proof of it, I will be so bold and claim, that a good bunch of those people, who are crying havoc for NCsoft to "fix the farmer problem" are actually those, who helped them get into the position, cause they bought their adena and did not fight them, when they had the chance.
I would hazard to guess that you're completely correct here. Also, there are a bunch of people that operate under a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to gifts from friends or clan mates.
One of them admitted that there is a clan she knows to be a raid farmer clan in her alliance but said she could still fully support the letter - making your point.
I can't say I'm excempt from this either. Trying to shun non-legit players and those who associate with them makes for very lonely play very, very fast.
I am currently in a clan, which I am the leader of, and which got no other members but me.
I do not remember, when I have grouped the last time and my friendlist is made of the different chars of exactly one person.
Yes, I am lonely... and my "clan" is following all rules all the time. Not only, when I feel like it.
How anyone can have farmers in their alliance and complain about the farmers being in game, is beyond my understanding.
It is inconsequent and/or hypocritical.
In a perfect world, it would be the cheaters, who would stand alone outside in the rain, not getting groups. Unfortunately, in Lineage2, it seems to be the completely legal players, who are at the minority.
It's not that I can't find groups - it's just rare. I know how one of my friends got his gear - and I also know the people who quit and gave him some of that gear, and which gear that was and how they got it, because I personally contributed the recipes for some of it and helped hand in some of the seeds.
It goes like this for a free friends.
But they are in clans, and while I want to think that those clans are at least mostly clean, I really can't guarantee this at all (thus my still being tagless).
I still don't know of a gear-cooperative clan around my level range that is recruiting on Devianne - such a place is the only where I would feel even remotely comfortable, because cooperation means at least some vague sense of safety that everyone worked for at least most of their gear.
Generally, if people see you working the market with your money, nobody will doubt you - which is why "initial ebayers" who "only got a little start up help" never get caught if they're smart about it afterwards, but that's definitely the lesser evil to not giving those people the benefit of the doubt.
Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. I play legit, 100%, work the market, have my dwarves there. And still get accused of cheating - even with my rep of steadfastly not cheating. So, no, I don't think so.
farmers back in OB where so much cooler bc they diddent use 3rd party programs and there was alwas tons of fights going on.
i loved farmers during cruma days... most the times, there were no clerics available so farmers would run multiple clerics in multiple actual players groups on bot lol.
at least that's how it was on erica. was great, except when you wanted a specific buff >.<
Do you realize, that that kind of thinking is exactly, what brought us in this mess with all the farmers around ?
How can anyone use them and benefit from them and then complain about their existance ?
It was not great in OB, it was not great in C1, C2 or C3 and it is not great in C4, nor will it be great in C6, C7, C8 or C12.
Great Kitten
yes, i realize that. i also realized that those groups would not have happened and i would not have gotten any xp without those farmers.
i have screens of being in party with farmers in the lair. they didnt make the party, they were brought in because they provided a buffer. the cost? all the spoils the group made.
farmers have offered me parties when i was walking through ToI on my own.
the simple fact of the matter is whether you like it or not, farmers provide a service to the L2 community that no matter how much the community cries about it, is not willing or able to do without.
edit:
my personal belief is: there is no mess with farmers. there is supply and demand.
Well I would say that the problem surely originates from the players, doing things against the EULA. But as in every country there has to be some kind of administration (police etc.) who enforces those rules or it is getting out of hand. And that is exactly what happened in L2. When the problem started it got ignored most of the time. Even if they knew they have ways to remedy the problem...
Now after many months the situation is finally out of control and now everyone just lives with that and sadly many people even join the dark side too, to stay competetive and because they know there isnt done much about it.
I know for sure that there would be ways to resolve this problem but in the end its just a fight about money...! You could do so many things to detect non l2 clients, but for what, if it hurts buisness...
I am sure that as long as the problem of farmers is not higher than the problem of players leaving, we will never see them go. So we can just hope that one day, players realise how rotten Aden got and they are finally forced to turn the tide to safe this game.
Simple solution: ncsoft can file suit against those companies and sites providing the means for people to obtain adena in ways that are against EULA, why haven't they thought of this? Im sure its been said before. I know one can say the argument of someone buying a gun and shooting someone...should the person who sold the gun be held accountable? If the seller knowingly sells the weapon to someone who has the intent of using it to murder someone...then YES. Accomplis (spl?) to murder through gross indifference. Thus, one can be charged. My point is, the companies supplying the illgotten goods/adena are just as legally cullpible as those who are farming it and purchasing it.
I don't think i'm the only one to just not care enough about the issue to be against or for it. I am of course a casual gamer. I spend alot of time in town, more so than hunting or getting xp. I know i'm not of the high end content, but from what I've experienced, what some pay RL money for, can be aquired easily enough legitimately providing you try that little bit harder to get it. That in itself should be a reward.
Even if the secondary market was legal, i wouldn't care enough to worry about it. If I did care enough to demand something be done, I'd just cut my losses and deactivate.
The fact is, every MMO has a secondary market. If it didn't, there would be a good reason for it. Case in point: Guildwars. That game has got to be the Easiest to progress through and take the least amount of time to get Gold. Yet there is a secondary market for it.
I wouldn't expect NCSoft or any company to berid of the force behind it because it would be impossible to do so. There is a demand for it, and there are people willing to take the risk to capitalize on that demand.
Simple solution: ncsoft can file suit against those companies and sites providing the means for people to obtain adena in ways that are against EULA, why haven't they thought of this?
Because you see, in business, it is not wise to sue your customers.
I know it's all american to sue over the flip of a coin, but when you are a business, you don't want to get heat on your customers.
I agree with your point entirely. My reasoning was that they recently filed suit against the creator of a 3rd party program that allowed players to take the easy way out, why not do the same to those who ruin the ingame economy, ya know...set a precedent. If the farmers have no or less companies to sell adena to, it would be a little harder to obtain adena through less than honorable means, then the economy MAY begin to stabilize (spl?).
They have to be absolutely sure they will win these lawsuits before filing them - from my understanding, if such a lawsuit fails once making another (even against a different RMT company) will become much, much more difficult.
They have to be absolutely sure they will win these lawsuits before filing them - from my understanding, if such a lawsuit fails once making another (even against a different RMT company) will become much, much more difficult.
Seconding this notion.
Given that the judge/jury is unlikely to be a gamer himself and thus really "get" the situation (or care :p), it's especially important to not set anything that could be construed, even by a huge jump of the imagination, as a precedent in favor of the secondary market. Even were the situation to be totally different between two suits, I simply wouldn't trust a random judge to care what the difference was enough to not simply side with "precedent"...
Now, that said, the fact that they can change their user agreement makes me wonder why they haven't simply altered it to tighten their case, waited a month or two, then sued the hell out of the secondary market companies in a case they know they can win *shrug*
I can tell you, why such a lawsuit is extremely unlikely.
Given the benefit of the doubt and placing the need for proof on the state, not the defender, you need to make an absolute chain of proof, that the person or company you are suing is indeed the person, who did first accept and then break the EULA.
You would then have the hassle of an EULA not being a contract in the legal sense. Yes, they can ban anyone cause of the EULA, but they cannot sue them. Simply because you did not have to sign the EULA. You click on accept, but good luck in prooving, who did click on accept. There is no signature, there is no way to proove the identity of the player. The only thing that can be proven is the owner of the account, who does not need to be the player.
Transfering legal responsibility from the account owner to the account user is the first real hard task. I would guess, there would at least be 2-3 years of fighting about this.
Then you would have the problem, that most likely, the secondary market sites do not have written contracts with their producers. So if you could sue one account holder for breaking the EULA, you would still be with the problem of transfering that guilt over to the company.
I would guess, the best thing would be to get the IRS on the toes of those sites, as they obviously got departments in the US. They are making cash with online sales, so they better pay taxes for it...
It is the same as with Capone. He was never prooven guilty for robbery, murder or violence. He was tossed in jail for taxes.
You click on accept, but good luck in prooving, who did click on accept. There is no signature, there is no way to proove the identity of the player. The only thing that can be proven is the owner of the account, who does not need to be the player.
This is where the ability to change the agreement comes in, though. They can simply invent a clause which restricts this, then give it a while to "take" (ie, everyone should be reasonably expected to know), then fire at will.
Otherwise, yeah. Taxes for online purchases are still a bit of shaky ground in the US, at least as far as enforcement, although the laws themselves are questionable in some states. If that ever gets sorted out, the IRS is probably a great recourse.
...although a few states, such as CA I believe, do have clear laws, so I suppose an investigation strictly of sales with IP's originating in CA would work.