Don't you hate it when your leveling your alt, or your main, and you go up to the next grade? This should be a happy time...new skills, and for the 20/40, its new class!
You get to town to purchase your new grade...DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!! WTH?!?!
Now, I'm sure many of you know what I'm talking about... the 100m+ helms at AG and what-not. I say...NAY! Nope, nuh-uh, Never, Nicht, Nien, Niet. How has this gotten SO out of control?!
I say we do something. But how? anyone have any suggestions? And no pointing fingers at NCSoft in this thread, theres probably a literal ton (2,000 pounds) in cyber waste of thaat stuff... I believe it is the adena sellers...
If you are to go on to the sites, look at the prices...The general cost of is directly related to the cost on the servers.
BLEH to you marketeersmen. Bleh to you Farmers. BLEH BLEH BLEH to Giran AFK SHOPS!
I understand what you mean thats for sure. Im lvl 65 and im still no where near geting a dc set for my nuker. I do alot of crafting to hlp me get closer to my goal. But right now, i need about 300mil or so to get my DC robes.
So im also doing the TOI quest to hlp me out maybe. But thats very slow for me as well.
Altho i heard that when C5 gets here, we might get a break on A grade stuff, but we wont know until it comes out, how it will affect us....
But ya, its frustrading to be A grade but not ready. But i do believe once i hit 70, i should be able to get my A grade dream gear, which i guess is not to bad....
PS i have no good ideas to counter that, so i craft n wait, craft n wait....
Um. Do the TOI quest, or buy the receipe, farm the designs and attempt a craft yourself? Or join a clan that raids, hands out helm drops to clannies? Or sell raid drops to pay the ridiculous helm prices?
The A grade helm system is pretty flawed, IMO. But seeing that they didn't change the mechanics much in C4, and that helm prices surprisingly actually WENT UP from C3 to C4 leads me to believe they want it to be insanely difficult to complete an A grade set. Like torture on purpose and planned.
That being said, I did not pay for my helm. <3 <3 Clannies
I can immagine how frustrating it is to purphase such items as A grade helms. But if you had one and wanted to sell it, wouldnt you want the maximum of adena for it? If people keep buying the helms at those prices, they will continue to be sold at those prices. Supply and Demand.... its how the world works.
I for one will skip A grade armor. Pointless to have A grade armor if you cant afford the hole set. Besides, for most classes the weapon is more important. Go BW heavy FTW!
i had my A grade set ready before my level 61... and my char is ALL LEGIT.
Guy, you focus on leveling, of course you won't have enough money...
Making money takes time too, but at least i can allways have the best setup for my grade. That's my choice, you choose to level faster, ... assume yours. ;)
BTW, this game has never been designed for players to be able to get next grade as soon as they get the passive. Most players should (those who don't work their *** to make money) not be able to have better than top former grade.... that's where you're right: too many players rely on buying adena to get top equipment ... but don't feel frustrated because of this, at least you're legit, and your equipment is "normal" (unless you are in C grade at 61).
maybe I'm not reading this right but, what does this have to do with AFK shops?
nothing... but if he would have made the title "Just another whine post about not haveing any adena!" Then people like me wouldn't have bothered to read his post, but instead just responded with, "Cry more?"
maybe I'm not reading this right but, what does this have to do with AFK shops?
nothing... but if he would have made the title "Just another whine post about not haveing any adena!" Then people like me wouldn't have bothered to read his post, but instead just responded with, "Cry more?"
anyway...
I have money. Just not hundreds of millions of adena that I ebayed to get my grade in equipment... Not a direct insult to you, but to what I think a lot of people do.
I'm saying: Not so many people would whine if the market wasn't SO [censored] UP, how do you fix it?
Getting the money is the one side - to craft youself the stuff is the other side - for example you buy all the items you need to craft yourself and then craft with ONLY 60% is one of the bad things EVER. You spend million of adenas to get the stuff and then BANG - Craft was not successfull :(.
Sorry - but here is the system really bad - as a WS i increase my crafting LVL - normal increase means that i´m going better in my job - but thats not true! I increase my lvl and the successrate is going lesser then the crappy stuff before - would be the same like - you get your LVL 6x Stun and it dont work like lvl 40 - hope you can follow what i would say :confused:
And at last - getting A-Grade helmet recipe is like hell.... :(
Don't you hate it when your leveling your alt, or your main, and you go up to the next grade? This should be a happy time...new skills, and for the 20/40, its new class!
You get to town to purchase your new grade...DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!! WTH?!?!
Now, I'm sure many of you know what I'm talking about... the 100m+ helms at AG and what-not. I say...NAY! Nope, nuh-uh, Never, Nicht, Nien, Niet. How has this gotten SO out of control?!
I say we do something. But how? anyone have any suggestions? And no pointing fingers at NCSoft in this thread, theres probably a literal ton (2,000 pounds) in cyber waste of thaat stuff... I believe it is the adena sellers...
If you are to go on to the sites, look at the prices...The general cost of is directly related to the cost on the servers.
BLEH to you marketeersmen. Bleh to you Farmers. BLEH BLEH BLEH to Giran AFK SHOPS!
Don't worry folks. I'm almost Noblesse and I don't have a complete A grade set. But I look at it in my own way. I don't make much, I spam cursed bones and bsps and I don't set up sellshops too often. When I do I don't buy to resell because I'd feel happy if I could fit everything into my warehouse. When I craft I never have to buy mats because I don't craft too often. I realize I could be making more and I could have my a grade set. But you don't need it. Your fine to level 75 with b grade. Sure I got SoM accumen. Pretty sad since I've played since prelude. But as I understand Noblesse gives too many benefits to pass up leveling towards. Noblesse gate passes and can simply borrow equipment from clan just for the Olympiad. When I am 78 on both classes then I'll stop worrying about exp. Till then I'll keep my helmetless nightmare light and my avadon robes :) ... or until C5 when a grade helmets fall 100mill in price.
i'm not up there yet, working my little tail up to B grade.. (with help of clan leader crafting some of the parts and buy the rest). surprisingly, the Zubei set cost less than a Theca set... *shrugs* dunno why the boots cost like 19mil... when zubei boots only cost like... 2mil-2.5mil max?! and oh.. weapons... forget about it... ^.^ i'm looking for a sword of valhalla for my clanny (she's a prophet)... looked up and down and all over giran.. cost like 80+mil with acumen... O.O more than a A grade weapon.. as much as a SOM?! man... so i said heck... can't afford that much... only have like 10mil in my wh, enough to buy a BO jewels set from an ally.... he was nice enough to sold it to me for cheap... thank goodness...
So i decided to start looking into making weapons once my toon is in B grade... helpful when hunting mobs that's in B for C weapon recipes... (dunno why they do that.. and pointless to complain anyway). then either find the mats or set up shop for ppl to craft it for cheap... tire if ppl either selling for a rediculious price or craft for high price...
once got a WS in our clan to set up crafting shop for so dam cheap... he thought i'm crazy... but he made like a few thousands adena more than he had 3 hours before... lol... it's not much.. but still a little more than what he had before.
maybe when i get the C weapons recipes... i'll go lv my artisan up to about lv5 or 6 crafting skills to registered it. this is not aiming to make a profit... but trying to bring the market down at least a little... also my goal is to get as much B and A grade recipes that's in 100% as possible... for the WS in our clan to craft things that's more of a guarantee for other ppl... i'm looking forwards to more hunting for Zubei recipes that's not 60% i saw once in a while selling in Giran for a price I just can't afford...
i also have about 2 Zubei helm recipes extra during one of the hunts with my clannies... they both 100% recipes... yeah.. more mats to make it.. but 0% at failing... and i'm dying to get a theca boots recipes... so i can just tell ppl to just find the mats... and i can get my clanny to craft for less than the 19mil ppl been selling for... like 1k or so...
manor system? i never get it right... yeah... when i want to break from the whole grinding to get to lv52... i do that with my BH, but turned in like 20 crops and get like 1 piece of leather back kinda not boosting my innovation much to use the system...
when i saved enough money and someone sell C crystal for decent price... i used all my money on it... so my clanny can just keeps on making SS for me, so i can lv or just hunt for those cursed recipes... keep on having ppl in ally think we nothing... but least we have our goals and focus set on helping get the economy down if we can... or at least i'm trying my best whenever i have the time...
on making money? i don't know... i do like the alligator island conquest and some quests that gives money as rewards... it's boring after a while... but it gives money... and can spoil leathers from those alligator.. ya know? ^.^ that's my 2 adena there...
well...like everyone just said, craft or farm, better yet, both at the same time. i worked on my soul bow mats for 5+ months, then crafted it cost of almost 5mil (plus some cash from my clanies about 10mil) so 15mil in total. now....to but it would have cost me 120mil(at the time) and that's just insane, i got my maj armor and gloves, and my clanies and i have been doing that TOI quest for....i don't even know how long, but it was long before i got my bow. and i just got the recipies for the rest of my gear, and i'm going to craft tonight. won't cost me anything cause i had mats
well...like everyone just said, craft or farm, better yet, both at the same time. i worked on my soul bow mats for 5+ months, then crafted it cost of almost 5mil (plus some cash from my clanies about 10mil) so 15mil in total. now....to but it would have cost me 120mil(at the time) and that's just insane, i got my maj armor and gloves, and my clanies and i have been doing that TOI quest for....i don't even know how long, but it was long before i got my bow. and i just got the recipies for the rest of my gear, and i'm going to craft tonight. won't cost me anything cause i had mats
Good luck on your crafts. I hope they are successful! :cool:
hehe... i'll do both once i gather enough recipes on weapons and armors... my clanny will craft armors... while my crafter toonwill craft weapons... would like to sell it for less so other ppl can afford it without having to cost them an arm, a leg, and about some of their organs or part of the torso... ^.^
craft it. I crafted my DC helm cost me 87mil. Yes that is still a crasy price to pay for a helm but better than 200mil. I have noticed alot of A grade going up in price even DC robes are going for 80mil now and just a few weeks ago they were 45mil.
I agree to what you say...it has gotten out of control. What could happen in an effort (not guaratee) to slow the hike of rates of items is everyone could make a dwarf if they wished, and flood the market with disired items for lower prices. If the market is flooded then the value goes down. But it would only be remotely successful if there were likeminded people doing this. Dwarf manufacturing clans. ><
I tried this...the problem became that once you put one thing up cheap, one of the jerk bastahds buys it off you and sits down selling high. You can do this cycle all you want, you can't flood the market fast enough, and even if you do manage to for a week or two, they just pop the price right back up the minute your back is turned.
The simple answer is to make everyone stop buying the blasted adena. Since you can't, then everyone just needs to make their own warsmiths I suppose ^^
Seriously though, if you made it known to EVERYONE you associate with in game that this practice of buying adena is just the most uncool thing they can do in your eyes, then maybe we can get the message across. I think there are way too many people that just avert their eyes when they see this happening, and that is why it won't ever stop.
As a dwarf it's one thing to play the market. The problem is as this is a pvp game, the same holds true for the market.
It's a market without any rules, it's a market without any checks or balances.
You have one dwarf setting the price for level 1 mat crafts at 100 another dwarf is doing it for 50 and yet another is doing it for 10. So you can ether set it low to stay competitive but not much adena or set it at a price thats reasonable and watch as others go to the lower shops.
I would like to think there is a reasonable solution to this, but i just don't know what it is.
Definitely a "pvp" economy. Try to set a reasonable price, and your stuff will get grabbed and resold by the very people you're trying to under sell! I was never good at monopoly.
Lets say there is a group of dwarfs and this group is the ones that set the market price.
Hypothetically speaking....How would this group set the market price? Anyone??
It's pretty simple, all they have to do is buy out anyone selling under what their market price is. They still make a tidy profit by reselling it at their chosen market price.
With multiple people doing this in all towns on all servers for a lenghty period of time, eventually normal players begin charging the higher price since not only is it what everyone else is charging, but people are actually paying the overinflated price. The players themselves unintentionally damage the economy in order to make some quick money for themselves in this case.
Those overcharging by themselves are not effected, since no one's buying their stuff anyway. Eventually they fall down to meet the new market price and pretty soon it's become a full server standard.
The effect can naturally be reversed over a long period of time by people who sell slightly under the new market price. If enough people start doing this then prices fall universally, and since it's still a lot higher than the original market price the people who enforced the new standard aren't too upset about it. If prices get too low they can attempt the aforementioned strategy to raise them up again.
People undercharging by serious amounts do little to influence the economy, as their items are quickly sold and most people never even see the potential drop in market price.
i was lvl 66 before i go my first A grade weapon
i was 68 before i got an A grade blunt (low A grade)
i was 71 before i got a sa
i still dont have A grade armor
its not a neccesity, its ppl thinking they actually need it that drives the ebay market
and yes i think the quests to get the recipies are rediculous and should be changed but i dont think every moron who manages to stumble his way to 61 should have it
And how practical do you feel, doing something like this is?
It's highly impractical, I don't think any player who cares about L2 would ever attempt something like this even to make money.
The problem is the people who don't care about it, the farmers and the ebayers who benefit two-fold from attempting mass market control such as this. Not only do they make more adena to sell, but they also raise the market price forcing their customers to buy in larger quantities.
Luckily the market is a powerful thing, it's not easy to influence and requires great organization at many levels. Fortunately for us the farmers and ebayers are not an organized front, they have their own competition for real world money.
That said it's not a totally impossible scenario either, and it wouldn't surprise me if such a thing has been done. If you'd taken a break from L2 when Brig helms cost 2 million only to return to find everyone selling them at 20 million, which would you charge for the one left in your storehouse?
I think it would be really easy just to ban the sale of Adena. If someone can just buy it without consequences, even from another player, THAT's what is driving up the market. If people have more and more money then things cost more and more. It's kind of like the real world concept of raising the minimum wage, and then the cost of living goes up. But then on the other side, you couldn't have EVERYONE running around with the best of the best armor. it's supposed to be hard to get, right? So i kind of see both sides of the equasion. What i hate is the concept that the people who *are* running around with the best armor and the best weapon and all their upgraded spells didn't have to work hard for the money that bought those things, but just went on ebay and bought the adena for it. I want the people who work hard to be the ones who reap the benefits.
It can be legally complicated to ban the sale of something, and even though people refer to them as Ebayers there are plenty of other places which sell MMO currency.
Removing both the sellers and the buyers is extremely difficult, since even a blatantly obvious transaction can lack the required proof to ban a player.
Don't think that everyone with high end gear cheated their way to get it though, there are plenty of honest players that know how to make money in L2. Those who buy adena are also the type of people that tend to throw their money away without really knowing its true value. They're the people that pay for overinflated prices and get their characters killed, losing the equipment they bought.
Removing the source of the adena is about the only way to stop it, and that means getting rid of bots and farmers. It's not something that will ever completely disappear however since even legitimate players may sell adena from time to time.
Lets say there is a group of dwarfs and this group is the ones that set the market price.
Hypothetically speaking....How would this group set the market price? Anyone??
It's pretty simple, all they have to do is buy out anyone selling under what their market price is. They still make a tidy profit by reselling it at their chosen market price.
With multiple people doing this in all towns on all servers for a lenghty period of time, eventually normal players begin charging the higher price since not only is it what everyone else is charging, but people are actually paying the overinflated price. The players themselves unintentionally damage the economy in order to make some quick money for themselves in this case.
Those overcharging by themselves are not effected, since no one's buying their stuff anyway. Eventually they fall down to meet the new market price and pretty soon it's become a full server standard.
The effect can naturally be reversed over a long period of time by people who sell slightly under the new market price. If enough people start doing this then prices fall universally, and since it's still a lot higher than the original market price the people who enforced the new standard aren't too upset about it. If prices get too low they can attempt the aforementioned strategy to raise them up again.
People undercharging by serious amounts do little to influence the economy, as their items are quickly sold and most people never even see the potential drop in market price.
Edit: Clarified a couple things.
problem with this is that eventually even if the market price is somewhat stable, someone (or a group of someones) will start buying everything that market price and then raise it. No one in their right mind would buy them and then sell them back at the lower price because that would obviously be taking a guaranteed loss.
As for those affectionately know as Ebayers, many get by using the ideal that you aren't buying adena or gold or credits . . . you are paying for their time and service to gather it for you.
When I played SWG their was a huge e-bay market for jedi as they were difficult to get. Those that literally sold their accounts (against the EULA) got away with it by stating in their sale that they were selling their time spent and not the account. Is it bogus? Yes but thats why its hard to stop them.
Anyway enough with the not on topic stuff . . .
A simple way to stop the inflation (not fix but stop) is if the developers placed a hard cap value for every item. Much like now when you get the "you are selling for a much higher price than the NPC shop" message you'de get a "the most you can sell this for is XXXX" However this would mostly remove the concept of the "player driven economy"
Definitely a "pvp" economy. Try to set a reasonable price, and your stuff will get grabbed and resold by the very people you're trying to under sell! I was never good at monopoly.
But then you've made your sale. Why is this bad? Because someone might sell it for a little more? Pfft.
I had a item for sale a few weeks ago for 18 million. This was the common price around Giran. It sold very quickly. I saw the person that bought it was selling it a few feet away for 25 million. Did I just lose 7 million? Maybe, maybe not. To my knowledge, it's still for sale.
I sell level 10 crystals for 1 million. They go quickly. This is the common price on Hindemith. I've seen people selling for 1.3 million. Again, they don't sell very fast (if at all). I'm not losing 300k.
Definitely a "pvp" economy. Try to set a reasonable price, and your stuff will get grabbed and resold by the very people you're trying to under sell! I was never good at monopoly.
But then you've made your sale. Why is this bad? Because someone might sell it for a little more? Pfft.
I had a item for sale a few weeks ago for 18 million. This was the common price around Giran. It sold very quickly. I saw the person that bought it was selling it a few feet away for 25 million. Did I just lose 7 million? Maybe, maybe not. To my knowledge, it's still for sale.
I sell level 10 crystals for 1 million. They go quickly. This is the common price on Hindemith. I've seen people selling for 1.3 million. Again, they don't sell very fast (if at all). I'm not losing 300k.
did you lose 7 mil . . no but if that person bought your item and his item and my item and the guy over there's item and raised them to his 25 mil uniform price . . .
A player controlled economy almost never works. They always start with good intentions but in the end the people hurt are the new players who upon entering the game find they can't afford anything that isn't sold at an NPC shop. These new players turn to Ebay or another source for "quick cash" and the inflation cycle starts all over.
The only way for a player based economy (in my opinion) can actually work is if there is an set amount of adena/gold/credits/whatever in the world where money sinks (such as taxes, NPC shops, gatekeepers, ect) in the game put the money back in the economy where players can collect it doing quests.
As long as there is an infinate amount of money in the world . . . there is no way to control or stop inflation . . . this is however just my opinion.
Well here is an idea/question and i'm hoping to get an offical NC reply.
A while ago we had a thread about naming scams and NC's responce was that they take a hands off approach that there are no rules.
So my question to NC is a hands off approach to the economy the correct path to follow? They will state that its a player driven economy, but it has no rule set to govern it.
did you lose 7 mil . . no but if that person bought your item and his item and my item and the guy over there's item and raised them to his 25 mil uniform price . . .
Again, perhaps. There might be a lot of people that will outright buy something for 18 million but won't touch it for 25; even if that's the only price in town. Maybe most, at that point, would just say "screw it, I'm gonna craft it."
A sale is money in your pocket. No sale for a higher price is 0 adena.
Well here is an idea/question and i'm hoping to get an offical NC reply.
A while ago we had a thread about naming scams and NC's responce was that they take a hands off approach that there are no rules.
So my question to NC is a hands off approach to the economy the correct path to follow? They will state that its a player driven economy, but it has no rule set to govern it.
What rules would you like to see? No one ever answers that question.
For starters a minimal markup value on all items/services.
Price controls suck. No ifs ands or buts about it. If I get a DC helm drop (will never happen) I have every right to sell it for 150 million. To hell with what NPCs think it is worth.
Also, what are leveled crystals worth, my friend? NPC says 0 adena. Level 13 ones generally go for 250 million.
i can't argue for or against price control . . . however it is one of the easiest ways ( I can think of) to regulate the economy.
I do agree that price control would lead to more bartering but bartering means that people are at their keyboards interacting. Most PC stores operate when the player is AFK so you could assume that the player would rather sell product, (even at a controlled price) while unable to play (at the keyboard) rather than having to spend their play time conducting business and not raiding/hunting/whatever.
So in a game such as L2 where to sell you must be online price capping could work. Those who wish to barter could still do so but they would have to spend their playtime doing it rather than what they may want.
So in a game such as L2 where to sell you must be online price capping could work. Those who wish to barter could still do so but they would have to spend their playtime doing it rather than what they may want.
So you feel that a +4 weapon is worth what the NPC cost is for the weapon and 4 EW scrolls?
i must misunderstand, I thought you were referring to a mark up value.
As for what I think what something is worth . . . thats not really relevant as you could use an auction in the marketplace forum for things you felt were "worth more" or you could barter while playing. What you wouldn't be able to do is sell it while AFK in a player store.
Not saying thats the way to go but just saying it could be an option.
1. Someone will always sell for lower.
2. Someone will always sell for higher.
3. Someone will always buy from #1 and #2.
4. Someone will always have more adena and/or better gear than you.
5. Worry about #4 and you'll cry for price controls.
6. There is NO rule #6.
7. Location, location, location.
8. What works for someone else will not always work for you.
9. There are hundreds of other rules.
1. Someone will always sell for lower.
2. Someone will always sell for higher.
3. Someone will always buy from #1 and #2.
4. Someone will always have more adena and/or better gear than you.
5. Worry about #4 and you'll cry for price controls.
6. There is NO rule #6.
7. Location, location, location.
8. What works for someone else will not always work for you.
9. There are hundreds of other rules.
rules aside, isn't it better to come up with ways to better (using whatever definition you have for better) the economy rather than just plain complaining that you/I/him/her/it doesn't have enough money and its the economy's fault?
rules aside, isn't it better to come up with ways to better (using whatever definition you have for better) the economy rather than just plain complaining that you/I/him/her/it doesn't have enough money and its the economy's fault?
The economy is perfect as is, and should be left a lone.
isn't it better to come up with ways to better (using whatever definition you have for better) the economy rather than just plain complaining that you/I/him/her/it doesn't have enough money and its the economy's fault?
Yes and we're still waiting for some workable ideas. However, I am not complaining about money; even though I will probably never have an a-grade weapon or a helmet.
isn't it better to come up with ways to better (using whatever definition you have for better) the economy rather than just plain complaining that you/I/him/her/it doesn't have enough money and its the economy's fault?
Yes and we're still waiting for some workable ideas. However, I am not complaining about money; even though I will probably never have an a-grade weapon or a helmet.
kesh*kesh is about the same price as sls*tsu +4 on bartz... of course oeing it costs quite a bit, but you could get the weapon itself :)
You see, curently there are some items which prices go WAY beyond the NPC shop, for example same A helmets. Do you think someone will be willing to sell Maj helm for I odnt know, 20-30m (which is it's npc price) instead of selling for 200-250m (that's how much it goes for on different servers). People will just start using mesage boards to put up their sales and then met online.
The economy is perfect as is, and should be left a lone.
I respectfully disagree as do many others (I'd suspect). I'm not saying the economy is broken . . . but it is far from perfect. After all, if it was perfect, why do so many dwarves complain about it.
You have to realize that the economy is more than just buying and selling . . . its also crafting the items and getting the materials. How many threads are are a bot those?
isn't it better to come up with ways to better (using whatever definition you have for better) the economy rather than just plain complaining that you/I/him/her/it doesn't have enough money and its the economy's fault?
Yes and we're still waiting for some workable ideas. However, I am not complaining about money; even though I will probably never have an a-grade weapon or a helmet.
kesh*kesh is about the same price as sls*tsu +4 on bartz... of course oeing it costs quite a bit, but you could get the weapon itself :)
On Hindemith, Kesh*kesh is about 45 million (EAAs are about 11 million each). Sls*tsu +4 (what I currently use) is about 38 million. +4 Kesh*Kesh is about 140 million.
I will probably have my B duals for a very long time.
Dwarf 1# is crafting for 10
Dwarf 2# is crafting for 50
Dwarf 3# is crafting for 100
Dwarf 4# is crafting for 1000
Given the games economy which would you say is the reasonable market price?
They are all reasonable prices. How can this be you ask? They are catering to different groups of people... If I just need 30 cbp, I might pay 1k ea instead of waiting for the other people to regen mana. Why wait around if all I need for my craft is 30 cbp? However if I was trying to craft a brig helm and I was short on adena, you can bet your *** I would wait for the mp on the 10a craft shop.
The economy is perfect as is, and should be left a lone.
I respectfully disagree as do many others (I'd suspect). I'm not saying the economy is broken . . . but it is far from perfect. After all, if it was perfect, why do so many dwarves complain about it.
You have to realize that the economy is more than just buying and selling . . . its also crafting the items and getting the materials. How many threads are are a bot those?
Dwarfs cry a lot because they play a terrible race with crap skills. This puts them in a bad attitude 24/7. It is compounded by the fact that every bot train is led by a little dwarf, and the server starts to resenting all dwarfs.
Never listen to what a dwarf says. They are too short to see the full picture.
anyway I'm done ranting about dwarves...
oh... the economy is perfect because it is ran by players. The players set prices, so it is and always will be... perfect.
Lets talk about corse bone powder....
In todays market we have four dwarfs.
Dwarf 1# is crafting for 10
Dwarf 2# is crafting for 50
Dwarf 3# is crafting for 100
Dwarf 4# is crafting for 1000
Given the games economy which would you say is the reasonable market price?
1a, as long as I can meet my dwarf clannie at MDT. And yes, I bring the recharges :D
Splatter tha's just not feasable, if you are mad that people aren't hitting your manufacture shop alter your prices or your products or both.. but don't expect people to change their prices so you can undersell them or compete with them.. that's anti-capitalist. I get the feelign you want to make your millions manufacturing.. go hunt, go make somethign and sell it, or do a buy sell set... millions aren't made with teh manufacture shops.
as for regulating economy I have to aggree with (I forgot who said it) limiting the amount of money in the world, it works, turning off the infinite money pool you will turn on balance and limited spending ability. the only other way I would see to control the economy to some degree would be to offer any item that drops at the NPC shops, that would place a soft cap on item value. I would hate to see that happen myself but I know it would work and balance out in the end.
I am a scavenger I make all my money from mats, almost always base mats at that (varnish, bone, iron and the like), if the NPC shops sold varnish for 700 (or whatever random number you think would be fitting) I wouldn't be able to get 1.8k for it....
so there are 2 ways to control item value without making it pointless to play. you will still have a player driven economy (using varnish as an example, the sell and competition range would be the shop buy price 100a up to the shop sell price 700a) it will just be a sober and controlled drive.
my point is i'd like to see you set up that 1a crafting shop and save up for that one million adena weapon.
The market is to under priced....
the d-grade market is controlled 99% through npc sellers... seeing as how u haven't left d-grade... this isn't an issue that should concern you.
Thats a little unfair . . . as a person who is also really only affected by NPC vendors (still working on good D grade) I myself have to look ahead. Just because he/she/you/me/it may not be affected by the current economy, that doesn't mean that he/she/you/me/it won't be.
As for the which is the right price from a crafting store . . . I personally look at what people are willing to pay for an item and base my craft price on that. If someone is willing to pay 1000 for CBP, then I don't see anything wrong with chargeing 100 adena to craft it. After all, you're still getting 900 for it. If someone sits next to me and offers it for less, I can't say anything as I only set up the shop when I'm AFK (as do many others I'd wager). I don't set the shop up to get rich, just to make a little if I can during those times when I can't actually play the game. I can't complain that someone is underselling me . . . I'm not at the keyboard and if I was, it wouldn't be to sit and do nothing.
Its the overcharging that concerns me. the ecoomy ca't be perfct if its run by players . . . as players aren't perfect . . . except SirE who is the only person in the world who knows how to drive. ;)
craft shops are a varied prices based on supply demand etc. For instance My Ws has every b grade wpn rec 60 and 100% excpet demon sword. The what I call "dwarf consortium" knows that I have that so when ppl ask the a and s grade crafters if they can craft a bgrade wpn they usually say my ws can.
NOw this is where supply and demand goes into effect. Most a grade craft are under 1mil nowdays. If someone pms my dwarf to craft and Item I say 1mil. NOw the person can take it or leave it. Normally if they leave it they won;t find another crafter for 2-3 days. Had this with one poor guy on a DELB 60% 4 days later got a pm saying ok 1mil meet at mrt.
However if NC wanted to screw over dwarf crafters they could
1. make recs easier to get... If there are more recs they will be chaepear and random dwarf will not mind paying for the rec to add it to their book.
2. Currently NC soft has built in price control to thier markets. This is int he form of crystals. D crystals are the base with them cappign at 650a. any more than that and your overpricing what you can buy an item for in giran and crush it.
C grade crystals you get form pairing 2 giran bought swords
B grade you get form pairing 2 lux shop swords
A grade you buy from mammon
S grade you buy form mammon
All nc soft would need to do it make the base item ... Crystals cheaper and it would deflate the economy.
I think Splatter tries to say that it is hard to make a million unless you already have one :D
Splatter, despite of all these fishing bots, you still can make a million by fishing, if you are ready to spend about 20 hours of your play time on fishing. You can obtain a pole and the first batch of lures through a quest, and keep the quest for fishing shots active when you are leveling.
xcept SirE who is the only person in the world who knows how to drive.
**** skippy. And if you see someone in your rearview mirror looking especially ****** off, it's probably me thinking about how badly you suck at driving.
I am a scavenger I make all my money from mats, almost always base mats at that (varnish, bone, iron and the like), if the NPC shops sold varnish for 700 (or whatever random number you think would be fitting) I wouldn't be able to get 1.8k for it....
This isn't necessarily true. In Prelude through C2 you could find people selling elven jewels, brig, and other top NPC d grade at 10-25% more than shop price. Currently you can find players selling Mammon items, bsoe, brez, etc.. for 50-100% more than Mammon's cost.
Out of ignorance or for convenience, players will pay more than the shop price.
I do think the a grade market would be alot more reasonable if they either added helm recs to drop/spoil lists or if they changed they recipe quests to always give a recipe. A random recipe would be fine as it would still put some challenge to getting your recipe and leave you with something decent to bargain with.
What I think the current system does is saturate the market with far more armor parts that can really be used.
Adding non-essential fashion items like they've been doing is also a good way to help reduce the amount of currency in game (money sink).
Currently NC soft has built in price control to thier markets. This is int he form of crystals. D crystals are the base with them cappign at 650a. any more than that and your overpricing what you can buy an item for in giran and crush it.
C grade crystals you get form pairing 2 giran bought swords
B grade you get form pairing 2 lux shop swords
A grade you buy from mammon
S grade you buy form mammon
All nc soft would need to do it make the base item ... Crystals cheaper and it would deflate the economy.
Except for the fact that the A/S crystal prices from Mammon are in Ancient Adena, not normal Adena. Ancient Adena prices aren't fixed and vary widely between servers. I can't remember what A Crystals sell for from Mammon (it's a lot, especially based on the high Green Seal Stone price currently on Lionna), but players sell them for ~20k each.
About a month ago on Lionna, A gems were selling for ~55k adena. Just the other night I sold 800 of them for 110k adena each, all to the same person. I've seen prices now as high as 150k per A gem. It's ridiculous.
Currently NC soft has built in price control to thier markets. This is int he form of crystals. D crystals are the base with them cappign at 650a. any more than that and your overpricing what you can buy an item for in giran and crush it.
C grade crystals you get form pairing 2 giran bought swords
B grade you get form pairing 2 lux shop swords
A grade you buy from mammon
S grade you buy form mammon
All nc soft would need to do it make the base item ... Crystals cheaper and it would deflate the economy.
Except for the fact that the A/S crystal prices from Mammon are in Ancient Adena, not normal Adena. Ancient Adena prices aren't fixed and vary widely between servers. I can't remember what A Crystals sell for from Mammon (it's a lot, especially based on the high Green Seal Stone price currently on Lionna), but players sell them for ~20k each.
About a month ago on Lionna, A gems were selling for ~55k adena. Just the other night I sold 800 of them for 110k adena each, all to the same person. I've seen prices now as high as 150k per A gem. It's ridiculous.
they can also be produced through manor system. It is relatively fixed since the castle lord can make them really cheap if he/she wants.
I found this under the C5 section Post (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=chron5&Number=627272&Forum =,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=58 5699&Search=true&where=&Name=19161&daterange=&newe rval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Po st627272) that sums up my thinking. And the point i was trying to make, why we need some form of economic rule set.
KingdomForCoin:
craft shop prices, like the party loot, is a social problem. people like to provide low prices on crafting so that other people will like them or they will get recs or something. the price of craft shops should actually be slightly Higher than the town BS, since you dont have to have the recipie for each item made. problem is that people either feel bad charging so much or trying to undercut the person next to them way too much. 1 adena crafts should be reserved for clannies, if everyone actually charged people to use their service then you might be able to make money from it.
craft shop prices, like the party loot, is a social problem. people like to provide low prices on crafting so that other people will like them or they will get recs or something. the price of craft shops should actually be slightly Higher than the town BS, since you dont have to have the recipie for each item made. problem is that people either feel bad charging so much or trying to undercut the person next to them way too much. 1 adena crafts should be reserved for clannies, if everyone actually charged people to use their service then you might be able to make money from it.
I wrote this in that thread too . . . after I figured out what BS meant :eek:
If you sell your craft services for an item the BS can make for you and charge slightly higher than him . . . why would people come to you for the service?
I agree that a rule set could prove to help things but I don't think what you (Splatter) want is really feasable in a capalistic economy.
As I said, the only way to truely balance the economy is to set a finite amount of Adena in the world and provide more money sinks to move it back into the world from player hands.
ok... you could have just come out and said that. ^^
btw it's a dumb idea. If I can make adena crafting for 1adena, I should have the right to craft for that.
i wasnt saying that you Shouldnt be able to. i was saying that the problems that the market is experiencing are due to social issues, not to game design. if you want to craft things for 1 adena go right ahead, but the rest of the dwarfs on the server should realize this is a bad thing for their business, and gank you.
becasue every time you use the town black smith it takes one recipie as well. say you want to make 5 coarse bon powder, that means you need 5 recipies of coarse bone powder, 50 bones, and X amount of money. if dwarfs wanted to charage 10 times amount X, their craft shops would still be used because who has the time to collect 5 rec:cbp? this is of course just a starting point for any market, then people undersell too much, maybe the best sollution is for people who are underselling to only decide to undersell by 1-2 adena instead of underselling by 99-8mil. the people that undersell so much are showing that they're not concerned with making money, and i presume this is because they are either a really brilliant market-player or ebayed their money and Want to destroy the ecconomy.
PS: five stars for SirE for you 9 points of marketing, i LOLed. thrice.
becasue every time you use the town black smith it takes one recipie as well. say you want to make 5 coarse bon powder, that means you need 5 recipies of coarse bone powder, 50 bones, and X amount of money. if dwarfs wanted to charage 10 times amount X, their craft shops would still be used because who has the time to collect 5 rec:cbp? this is of course just a starting point for any market, then people undersell too much, maybe the best sollution is for people who are underselling to only decide to undersell by 1-2 adena instead of underselling by 99-8mil. the people that undersell so much are showing that they're not concerned with making money, and i presume this is because they are either a really brilliant market-player or ebayed their money and Want to destroy the ecconomy.
Ok I totally understand now and I retract my comment.
PS: five stars for SirE for you 9 points of marketing, i LOLed. thrice.
can I take his five stars for creeping me out with his new avatar?
maybe the solution then, is to remove player craft shops alltogether. you give me money, and base mats, and maybe if you're lucky i give you some crafted mats back? i have no doubt they put craft shops in game to avoid this sort of scam. once again, im not saying that you cant craft for 1 adena, im just saying that you have created a situation in which all dwarfs do not make money, including yourself.
Craft shops didn't exist during the first part of the game. Threads titled "Trusted Dwarves" were common, and a lot of people did get scammed out of their mats. I was SO nervous to find a "trusted" dwarf to craft my Stick of Faith because it took me months to gather the materials for it. Fortunately, this dwaft gave me the crafted weapon.
As fer the topic, if they removed craft stores, they would be best to remove the receipe ingredient at the blacksmith. Though I don't persoanlly think they should get rid of craft stores. Craft stores in my opinion are just the common "I have nothin to sell but want to try to earn a little while I'm sleeping" option that many a dwarf use. As far as they are concerned it doesn't matter how much they charge as its something of nothing.
i serriously think the people that play BH and WS as their mains are some of the nicest people in the game, scamming would not happen often, but it would happen eventually, and when it did, ouch.
as per spatter's suggestion i think that craft shops (not sale shops) could easily be restricted to crafting at a set amount, (where my suggestion was a more social solution, like gratuity in restaraunts). lets say that people buy cbp for 10k. if the cost to craft were socially set at some "about 10%" amount of the value of the resulting item, the craft should cost about 100 adena. the problem here is that when someone undercrafts someone else, instead of going to 98 or 90, they jump down to 10, where they themselves dont make any money anyways, and now if anyone wants to set up a craft shop they have to set it at 10 to make any sales whatsoever.
Lets talk about corse bone powder....
In todays market we have four dwarfs.
Dwarf 1# is crafting for 10
Dwarf 2# is crafting for 50
Dwarf 3# is crafting for 100
Dwarf 4# is crafting for 1000
Given the games economy which would you say is the reasonable market price?
because i think its a workable good idea. set all craft shops prices to an amount based on the level of the recipie for the craft. heres a rough formula but 4 * (5^(level of craft)).
lvl1=20
lvl2=100
lvl3=500
...lvl8=1.562.500
this makes good sense but wouln't something like this affect the prices of everything else? What level are A grade items and whould their craft price match what the item is worth . . or even close to what its worth?
A grade items in a sale shop are worth whatever someone will pay for them, it has very little to do with the cost of the craft shop that made it (if crafting for clannies you could just trade them the money back so in essence you still have 1a craft shops for non-strangers). i dont think it would have any effect whatsoever, except maybe the hgiher-grade mats will be resonably priced based on this (ie cbp, which i think is a level 1 recipie, would be sold at 5 adena more than 10x animal bones, since the cost to craft it would be figured in).