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2. This is just a pet peeve of mine but it's finally blown me off my rocker. We can take it into general discussion later.
I hate it when people who have a prophet or a shillien elder say they are HEALERS. Look just be you CAN heal doesn't mean you ARE one. Is a Silver Ranger a Daggar? Is a Gladi a Pole user? Is a Bladedancer a Tank? No offence to any of those good prophets that do infact heal in parties when needed, it just doesnt classify you as a healer. Its a little petty of me, but comeon, Bishops and Elven Elders are Healers, Shillien Elders and Prophets are buffers. Again just cause you CAN doesn't mean you ARE.
srry for that. I had to say it. And the situation mentioned does apply to both. Healers and Buffers, or simply Support.
You're right about prophets, but right now, skills say that SE *are* healers. Right now, in C4, even more than EE. Yes, EE are better healers in PvP due to their casting speed. But in PvE, SE are definitely better healers than EE, and not only due to VR.
And if you are so convinced that SE are buffers and not healers, then tell that to everybody else in game, please. Because what is the next thing you hear when your high lvl SE joins a party? Yep - "OK, now we just need a BUFFER and then we are set!".
In endgame, SE ARE NOT BUFFERS. By this I mean, the usual role you play is NOT buffer. Yes, they have the basic buffs. But not what people in a large party need. Usually when I am in a party, I heal and do some recharges. From all my buffs the only ones I hand out are empower and - unless a WC is in party - VR. Oh yes, when a WC is in party I also buff WW I never use any of the other buffs.
I know that for people in their 40s-60s it looks like SE are incredible buffers. But in the 70+ area, they aren't. Any of the REAL buffers can easily replace them AND give better, extra buffs the SE does not have. So nobody invites a SE to a party as a buffer. Exp would simply be too bad without a good buffer. You know what usually happens when you have a SE as "main buffer" in a larger high lvl exp party? People will leave because "exp is too slow", unless it is a pure nuker party.
In C5, Bishops and EE will get major heal. But EE still will not have any kind of group heal, and the major heal probably will not be used often in PvE. So SE will most likely stay in the role of PvE healer/recharger. But buffer? No, not unless your party likes to drink acumen/alacrity pots (no acumen/haste for SE), and likes to skip buffs like zerk,mdef,resists,btb,bts, shield buffs and later on useful 78 buffs (like CoV).
I would say prophet=buffer, bishop=healer, EE and SE hybrid healer/buffer (and in L2 "hybrid" means that you have one or two buffs you add on top of what a "real" buffer buffs, but you don't act as a main buffer except in emergencies).
Rant: actually this is the one thing which has annoyed me for the last year or so. People always say "boohoo SE is so overpowered, nerf nerf". Then you are in a party, and people (correctly) say "we need a real buffer, SE buffs suck compared to Prophet/WC buffs". So a SE obviously is not a "real" buffer. Then you have some pvp, and people say "SE heals suck, they are too slow. SE are no real healers, only bishop/EE are, SE are only good for PVE". Then you ask "uhm, so SE suck as buffer, and we also suck as healers, so why exactly are we overpowered?". Must be because we have empower and VR. These two buffs alone make us overpowered, and lots of people want NCSoft to give these buffs to other classes, too (although WC and BD already have VR, too). Guess they could just delete the whole class then, would be nothing left
Ok im really sick and tired of fighting about this but nonethless. Shilien Elders are buffers. They have almost all the buffs and all of the most wanted buffs like WM/EMP/VR and the buffs you dont get from the SE you can either get from an SA or pots. They can infact heal quite easily and do infact have Greater Group Heal... But there is almost no need to ever use that skill. It takes more mp and heals less... The only time it is effective is when you are healing more then 3-4 people. Even then you could just wait out their regen time. The only time that GGH is a neccesity is when your fighting aoe mobs. SEs are best in small parties where they can both buff and heal. For larger parties they should assume a Buffer/Regener only role. And a backup healer ;)
As a level-60 SE, I like to think that I'm a little bit of both. Now, according to my alliance, I'm more, but that's not what I'm replying for.
I heal quite well (and will until I turn into a heal potion in C5), and I buff fairly well. I have mage love because of Emp and WM (well, I will in 2 levels), and fighters love me for VR.
We also handle crowd control fairly well. This is evidenced by rooting 78+ mobs in the Imperial Tomb without using BSps, and sleeping quite frequently on TOI 5+.
However, in parties I do find I'm the backup for bishops, prophets, and warcryers.
But even then I play a key role: recharger.
The SE is a class all its own.
Now when you want to talk to me about the multiple roles I play outside of that, you let me know. SEAL team medics have inspired me.
Ok im really sick and tired of fighting about this but nonethless. Shilien Elders are buffers. They have almost all the buffs and all of the most wanted buffs like WM/EMP/VR and the buffs you dont get from the SE you can either get from an SA or pots. They can infact heal quite easily and do infact have Greater Group Heal... But there is almost no need to ever use that skill. It takes more mp and heals less... The only time it is effective is when you are healing more then 3-4 people. Even then you could just wait out their regen time. The only time that GGH is a neccesity is when your fighting aoe mobs. SEs are best in small parties where they can both buff and heal. For larger parties they should assume a Buffer/Regener only role. And a backup healer ;)
You insist that SE should be buffers, but you haven't really read what I wrote above there in your quote: SEs do not have important buffs. Nobody in 70+ parties wants a SE as main buffer. Nobody. Really. It just does not happen. Maybe in a duo, but not in a full party. No full party wants to pop potions for several hours.
On the other hand, SE as main healer works quite well EXCEPT in the super high lvl AOE areas like hero rift or FoG, just because of casting speed for GGH (where EE would not work well as main healer either, btw - no GGH=party dead or PR). Nevertheless it is possible for SE to heal even there as main healer, I have done it a few times at FoG. Apart from that, SE can heal everywhere. I mean - no wonder, same skill lvls as EE plus empower. We regularly do high lvl raids with only SE as healers. Prophet+SE or even Warcryer+SE works very well as exp party combination.
BTW greater group heal is a really useful and excellent skill, it can save a LOT of mp. You just have to know how to manage those health bars, i.e. know when you HAVE to heal and when you can let the damage accumulate a bit so you can do one 228mp ggh instead of several 114mp gh. Yes, ggh heals less, but only like 150hp or so (to be exact 980hp vs. 1150hp for me)
Actually I do not care if you consider SE a buffer or not. Think whatever you want. All I can tell you is that I stopped actually BUFFING (in the sense of spending all my mp to full-buff a party) around lvl 60 or so. After that, all I buffed were my specialty buffs and we always had a "real" buffer in party. All a high lvl SE does is heal and recharge. Yes, many times you function as backup healer and mainly recharger. But just as often as main healer. Go into a 70+ "group LF buffer" party room on a SE and see what the ppl say.
SE=healer? Yep, works in PvE (not PvP). SE=recharger/2nd healer? Yep, quite often. SE=buffer? Works sub-60 or so, but in high lvl play SE is not considered a "full" buffer anymore by most people. Can work well in duos/trios though, when ppl are willing to spend adena on potions. In most larger parties you cannot expect that, though, and so people will want to have somebody else as buffer.
*shrugs* Maybe you just don't know how to play or that 9 man 75 parties is all that exist in the game.
While they have more limited use than SE in regards to healing, they can still do it pretty well in some situations, depending on buffs, amount of people and surroundings.
There are a lot of ways to play most classes in this game. If you don't go for that 'perfect' party when you're leveling you may discover some classes are capable of things you weren't aware of.
Yeah, there are things they just can't do, or things that are not good to demand of them. (its for instance not terribly smart to demand a prophet in for healing or fighting in most cases).
SE's are a hybrid, thanks to two greater heals, buffs, and recharges. But they just cannot do all three things in anything other than small groups. I thought they could do it all until I made one and quickly found out they have more skills than their MP pool can deal with.
Well, very few classes can actually do *all* the things they are capable of at the same time without running into serious trouble, but that doesn't mean they can't take on other roles according to needs and wants.
Well take a bishop, I heal and rez, that's all I really do. SE's can buff melee or nukers very well, recharge, AND heal. I don't have half those options.
Sorry Bow but you are wrong.
Bishop, Elven Elder, Shilien Elder are healer classes. All know that Bishop is stict healer and it's beast in healing but EE as well as SE are healers too.
Both have some buffs so what? Bish have few too. But in most cases thy use only 2 of them. If we talking about SE already it's VR and Emp. And if fact that SE have VR it's even best healer (VR stack with dance of vamp. so dance don't replace it).
If you have role of healer no-one expect form you that you will buff whole party and recharge half of ppl as well. You have to heal and SE is great. in this role I know Bishop is better in highest levels but this doesn't change anything.
SE/EE aren't buffers, they have some bufs + recharge ability, but they are still healers. As someone mentioned hybrid ones.
There are very few people on these boards with closed minds like this... Still...
Ok im really sick and tired of fighting about this but nonethless. Shilien Elders are buffers.
Blah Blah....
Look at the skills trees a little longer and you'll see the devs had a longer view than you do.
Each race but dwarves has some magical powers. Orcs are a bit appart but if you look at the things you're comparing you'll end up realising you're trying to compare pears and apples and making a poor job at it.
Humans are the ONLY race where a difference is made between healing support and buffing support.
When you come from human cleric you go one way OR the other, prophet ot bishop.
Elves and Dark Elves don't suffer this kind of seggregation.
When you are an oracle you can only go ONE WAY. And typically the said way will give you SOME healing support and SOME buffing support. So are Elves and Dark Elves buffers or healers ? BOTH lil' scarab. They aren't specialised. Period.
They heal largely more than prophets and not that less than Bishops. But they also lack THE haste buff as well as the Bod/Mind ones.
So if you check the healing ladder and the buffing ladder, they are on each one below the humans who are more specialised, but they are better balanced at it. It's actually the only well thought skill tree of the game, so at least learn it.
For larger parties they should assume a Buffer/Regener only role. And a backup healer
It all depends on what else you have in the party lil scarab.
You'll know better with time...
Keep going...
Nukers have a low HP pool, often times Greater Heal is overkill on them when they are in the mid levels (high 40s and up a bit). You don't want to let them get too low, but at the same time you don't want to waste lots of mana.
Here, Prophets can still heal the nukers very well. However, you also have to know whether or not it's mana efficient. If you have a very small party, it will work just fine, you just don't want your Prophet running out of mana to buff.
Bishops can still buff but who the heck wants it? Shield 2, might 2, focus 1, acumen 2, zerk 1, mental shield 1, conc 2. A low level SE has much better buffs than me.
SE's are the most even hybrid of Buffer/Healer of all the buffer/healer classes.
Their versatility is their strong point.
When my party brings an SE, their role changes based on the rest of the make up of the party. ie.. if we have a prophet, the SE is a healer mostly. If we have a Bish, the SE is mostly a buffer. If we have a proph and a Bish, the the SE is a recharger.
The nice thing about an SE is that they bring alot to the table in any party - nuker/archer/melee, it really doesn't matter. Of course, they bring the least to the archer party, but recharge does come in very handy in the hardcore archer party.
In a nutshell, arguing about whether an SE is a buffer or healer is just ignorant, since their role is dependant on the makeup of the rest of the party.
In a nutshell, arguing about whether an SE is a buffer or healer is just ignorant, since their role is dependant on the makeup of the rest of the party.
exactly, it all depends on the environment and the mood of the player.
Never underestimate the ressourcefulness of players and put classes under generic labels.
Well put LC. You can sometimes be amazed ingenuity of players. I've been in groups where the Prophet (Hvy Armor)was buffer and main tank.
Having played a SE to 52+, I agree with those that have said a SE is a hybrid. A SE's role in group is defined by the type of group, filling in the gaps as needed.
--LC I hope you don't mind me adding your quote to my sig :)
ha.. sometimes I'm lucky enough to have 2 SE's in a party.. one buffs and is backup healer, the other is healer and part time recharger. Now that's really going to confuse the people who want to stuff the SE into a specific role.
In a nutshell, arguing about whether an SE is a buffer or healer is just ignorant, since their role is dependant on the makeup of the rest of the party.
exactly, it all depends on the environment and the mood of the player.
Hehe and the party ur with especially if they don't use their own skills too well. I'm an SE and found myself in the amazing role of Tank just the other night - hello where did that come from!!!
But only as a residue of their cleric past. Bishops don't up those buffs and prophs don't up those heals.
They still have them, so regardless of wether its from their Cleric path, they still have the possibility of doing it, hence they can take on multiple roles if needed be.
Bishops can still buff but who the heck wants it? Shield 2, might 2, focus 1, acumen 2, zerk 1, mental shield 1, conc 2. A low level SE has much better buffs than me.
And Body of the Avatar.
But someone would want them if they don't have the buffs, and why would a nuker say no to Acumen 2 just because they have an SE?
That could also be called poor aggro management :)
Way back we had a Temple Knight in our alliance and he would moan about that Giants Cave was tough for him to tank, then told him to shut up and tanked the whole place with my nuker, LOL.
I've gotten some **** good XP from parties where no prophet was available but we had a Bish and an SE.
No downtime with the SE buffing/recarging and Bish healing, then just a couple Bish buffs (zerk/acumen/BoA).
In fact.. If I have an SE and have to choose between Prophet or Bish to fill the last spot in the party.. I'll take the Bish. You'll get more XP over time. (assuming you are an avid GSAP user..lol)
I think I have the ender to this. Basically, what it all boils down to is this...Someone got ticked b/c SE's and Prophets called themselves healers. OK, watch this....( You watching? good ) Who cares? Honestly, they can call themselves a DD for all I care. If I know they're a SE, I know what I want them for. Doesn't matter what they THINK they're for, or what they call themselves. As long as they do what the party asks them to do, they're fine. If they don't boot em and get someone else. There are very few FACTS presented here that matter. True, Bishops are the only PURE healer post 40. TRUE SE's have great buffs pre-60. But honestly, it's not worth posting 4 pages worth of arguement over what they all call themselves. Grow up. :)
There are very few FACTS presented here that matter. True, Bishops are the only PURE healer post 40. TRUE SE's have great buffs pre-60. But honestly, it's not worth posting 4 pages worth of arguement over what they all call themselves. Grow up. :)
Please don't make inteligent posts on this thread. Thank you.
as a side note... the only good se/pp is boxed one.
Please don't make inteligent posts on this thread. Thank you.
as a side note... the only good se/pp is boxed one.
Ahem. As a person who plays an SE as his main, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. :)
As for my perspective in this debate, I think what's happened here is what happens in almost every MMO: Once upon a time somebody decided to do X with Y class and others thought it was cool because they liked what it did for them. From then on, everyone firmly believed that Y class should only be played X way and anyone who bucked the system didn't know how to play.
That being said, I am *not* just a mana battery for anyone's nuker. I will *not* sit idle regenerating mana just so I can fill them back up every few minutes. What I *will* do is buff my teammates out the wazoo then help them with roots, sleeps, and heals.
In the end, I play this game to have fun. Being someone's mana/buff bot is not fun, so I do not and will not do it. Groups that can't accept that, don't really need me along.
In the end, I play this game to have fun. Being someone's mana/buff bot is not fun, so I do not and will not do it. Groups that can't accept that, don't really need me along.
I use to be "buff bot" for a long time on my SE. Not beeing able to solo effectly, I was merely strained to the group nukers I play with. In the end it all came down to emp/wm and recharge. No use even try to root/sleep/whatever. I gave up on it. Got my self a sorc on the 2nd account for beeing able participe a bit more active to the game.
I use to be "buff bot" for a long time on my SE. Not beeing able to solo effectly, I was merely strained to the group nukers I play with. In the end it all came down to emp/wm and recharge. No use even try to root/sleep/whatever. I gave up on it. Got my self a sorc on the 2nd account for beeing able participe a bit more active to the game.
I hate to hear that you didn't have more fun with the class. If it truly does get that bad later on, I may wind up re-rolling, but for now I'm having a blast.
Please don't make inteligent posts on this thread. Thank you.
as a side note... the only good se/pp is boxed one.
Ahem. As a person who plays an SE as his main, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. :)
As for my perspective in this debate, I think what's happened here is what happens in almost every MMO: Once upon a time somebody decided to do X with Y class and others thought it was cool because they liked what it did for them. From then on, everyone firmly believed that Y class should only be played X way and anyone who bucked the system didn't know how to play.
That being said, I am *not* just a mana battery for anyone's nuker. I will *not* sit idle regenerating mana just so I can fill them back up every few minutes. What I *will* do is buff my teammates out the wazoo then help them with roots, sleeps, and heals.
In the end, I play this game to have fun. Being someone's mana/buff bot is not fun, so I do not and will not do it. Groups that can't accept that, don't really need me along.
Just my 2 Adena. :)
You've got the right idea! Play it up man.. there's going to be even more for you to do with your new skills in C5!!
New skills in C5? I haven't kept up to date on what's coming down the pipe. I didn't know SE's were getting anything new. That sounds very interesting.
Absolutely! I agree 100%... I also play an SE as my main, and wouldn't be anything else. Am I buffer? Yeah a **** good one in the right groups.... Am I healer? Of course I am. IMO any SE who knows how to play their class knows what to do to make themselves better. For those who say well SE's cast to slow... You can kiss my big white butt... Put me in the right party, with my +5 wit tattoo, acu or gmhp, and dances, I easily break 1k casting speed. GGH? I don't think so, looks like GBH to most players. It's a matter of knowing your limits, having fun, and getting a party that will respect your limits.
I tried making a nuker on a second account. And realised I would never hit 75 on my SE main within a reasonable amount of time. So as a 7x SE I can safely say, for the most part In large parties, I play top-up buffer and recharger. I heal occasionally (like when the bishop or EE goes to the loo) but otherwise that is pretty much what happens in most parties. Even nuker parties. we normally have an OL for acumen and zerk as well as shield, ww and magic barrier. I add my emp and WM2 and off they go.
Every class can be played in many different ways. An SE can be the healer in a party (as long as there is another buffer ofc) or the can buff a party (rare though) or play recharger (most common at higher levels). It really just depends on the needs of the group.
While this may not be much consolation to those already disliking their class and not in their 70s, levels 77 and 78 do make a great difference in the fun factor of being an SE. Block Shield is a useful and powerful debuff for PvP (only marginally useful for PvE), Prophecy of Wind is of course excellent (while its crit damage buff components are situational, any physical attacker can appreciate the buffs it gives and the fact that it doesn't gimp run speed), and Arcane Wisdom greatly enhances an SE's ability to contribute to an intensive XP party or mass PvP/siege preparation.
Also, hopefully the Mental Shield nerf in C5 is great enough to make Root semi-reliable in buffed PvP. Perhaps they only changed the buff to maintain status quo after switching players' debuff resist from WIT to MEN, but I hope it was more than that.
Again the age old arguement of buffer or healer? it all comes down to the basic racial differences that are the core of lineage and everyone forgets this. yo ucan see it in almost every class tree when you compare races.
humans: most specialized classes, clerics split into 2 seperate classes. pure buffer (prophet) and pure healer (bishop)
elves and dark elves are hybrids in every class: as oracles can only go to elder status: elven elders are defensive buffers with only greater heal while shilen elders are offensive and most importantly nuker buffers with 2 greater heals (group and single)
orcs are mainly buffers with a slow heal over time and are classified differently overall for comparisons sake due to their other unique attributes. dwarves of course cant heal at all.
breakdown of comparisons for heal/buff ability:
bishops: minor pre 40 buffs but the best and most variety of heals post 40
shilen elders: offensive buffs mostly, best buffs for a nuker, the SECOND MOST post 40 heals in the game
elven elders: defensive buffs mostly, only one post 40 heal
prophets: great buffs that cover both offense and defense but no post 40 heals.
orcs are great buffers for parties or alliance/clan groups EXCEPT they cannot single target buff so if there is a disconnect, death or new member added they have to rebuff the entire party and their heal is only a heal over time.
so you tell me again who the buffers and healers really are? and if a party is shouting for a buffer and happens to be a huker party what would they rather have? if a party is largely non nukers what would they want? as a healer for pve do they really want a healer with only one greater heal or none at all, or a healer (the SE) that has two greater heals and can give a few extra buffs. for pvp the elven elder is great for their casting speed (allthough really with the right armor/tattoos/acumen weapon SE's arent necessarily slow anymore) and of course party return.
it comes down to your playstyle, the group dynamics, and the availability of said healer/buffer.
I have a 39 SO and 95% of the time on raids she is only there as a recharger. Of course I usually have an overlord and a cleric friend of mine with me.