I was foraging around in the game suggestion board and for the 100th time I see some guy asking about setting up some kind of central selling NPC for the towns. Just like before, someone chimes in about how it would destroy the moneymaking capabilities of "legit" players. I'm sorry, but I just can't buy this, because the logic is extremely selfish and flawed.
The good of having a central selling NPC (notice that I'm not saying auction house because that implies some kind of bid war, which is not the case here) far outweighs the bad in my opinion. It will cut down on unnecessary server traffic and lag, free up space to travel in cities, and it will lower prices to where "legit" players may be able to actually afford to level within the game. You wouldn't have to worry about server disconnects ruining your chances of selling. Plus, it would make it easier for people to actually find items you're selling. It wouldn't make people less rich...It would just redefine how much is necessary to be considered rich.
I really want to know what the concern is. You get a central selling point, set your item under the appropriate category, set your price and then move on. A consumer comes in checks your price and other prices. They then buy the one that they want. If your price isn't moving the item, you lower it. If it's a hot item, and no one else has it, you can still sell it for a good price. Isn't this almost exactly how it works now, but without the traffic, lag, and the scamming? I fail to see how a person can lose in this.
I couldnt even read this same worn out sugggestion again. the point is it gives buyers and sellers more freedom to let them sell how they want. end of story.
I couldnt even read this same worn out sugggestion again. the point is it gives buyers and sellers more freedom to let them sell how they want. end of story.
I almost couldn't bring myself to read this same tired cop-out to the question. More freedom to do what...? Scam? Inflate prices? Is this the only part of the game you're trying to save?
Just tell me what freedom it is your keeping. What can you do in an AFK shop that you can't do from a central selling location?
well a sellers list posted in every city seems ok, it would save me time from having to gor from goddard to giran just to get some items i need to craft or ss. seems like a pretty good idea.
I still like the idea too. I have better things to do than spend an hour looking for stuff in Giran...not to mention checking out Hunters and Dion also depending on what it is I'm looking for.
I think it would actually help the market because there are so many people that I've talked to who have trouble moving items out of their warehouse because they can't leave their computer on long enough for a sell shop.
yeah sure. If someone wants to scam let them. Also if someone is to lazy to walk around to find what there looking for thats not a problem the rest of the game should have to suffer for. Why everyone so upset about scamming? If your someone that thought a prrof of blood for 10 mil adena was a good deal or something like that then you deserve to be scammed. And the main point an auction house of some sort would kill what alot of players make a big part of there game. They play the market. What you want taken out next? pvp? maybe do away with castle seiges??
You have a great idea, ive mentionned this in the past and i think it would really hlp to.
I also think that the central hub would be great like u said for when u get dced, it would still allow u to sell ur things once the server is back up and running and wouldnt require ur client to be up when doing so, so no more sell shops cluddering giran...
I definitlly second this idea, it would solve alot of problems and i do feel that ppl who say no to it are the ones right now making insane profit thrue current system, so they dont want that to change.
But honnestly, just for the central hub idea, its worth it, at least i know if i dont sell my stuff, its not cuz i keep geting dced 5 mins after i leave for work, so ++++++ for me...
I think the issue is that there is freedom to raise prices how the players see fit.
It is ok to inflate prices. In real life companies/stores do it all the time. There are many reasons for this. Sometimes they are "legit" and sometimes they are not.
The idea of a player run economy is that the players can set their prices based on how common or uncommon the items are, how easy they are to find, etc.
In the end, if I charge 10 million for no grade gear, no one is going to buy it.
The game is designed so that people need to really search for bargains. You may or may not like this type of thing but it is what it is.
I also think that the current system invites inflated prices and a central selling npc invites deflated prices.
If you can compare, at a glance, all the prices of coal, you will buy the cheapest. So sellers might be more inclined to lower their prices in order to insure a quick sale.
So a central seller is more buyer friendly and the current system is more seller friendly.
I personally don't care as I hate the whole "economy" thing and would prefer a system/game that wasn't so gear based. At least to the order of magnitude that L2 is.
I can actually make money from the current system but I also find it a bit tedious. Playing merchant is not fun for me.
I admit that scammers are a pain to deal with but if people are stupid enough not to check what they buy before hitting the button then learn from that stupidity.
Part of the game is buying and selling the stuff that you aquire over time. How dull would it be to just have a list of the same things all listed at the same price. Where's the fun in that??? Searching for the bargain (whoops someone missed a nought off) or being in a situation of "How much?? But I really need it so what the hell" is all part and parcel of Lineage. Central selling - and not only that but having to pay for the privilage - would IMO be boring as hell.
Price controlling becomes simple. A few clicks and you have bought every sop for sale. A few more and you are selling them all for 1k more. The second somebody lists more sop... you can click click and make them yours and resell. This is possible right now, but it is a lot more work, and there is a good chance you will miss some. If you want to control the market, it should be difficult.
Also it makes all prices everywhere the same. ss/sps is a higher price if you buy it in hv/oren/rune or some other out of the way place. This is a good thing imo. I once made a dwarf just to haul ss that I bought in giran down to heine to sell for 3a more per shot. I sold out fast and made a few quick bucks at it. A few days of this and suddenly there were dwarf shops setup selling adena for normal prices.
It makes the worlds smaller.
It kills town populations.
The cheapest item will always be bought instantly lessoning your chance of finding a good deal.
I agree great idea, but from a dev point of veiw it will never fly only because NC loses the time sink if your selling you are not lvln therefore you either buy 2nd account for sell (more income for NC) or your toon remains stagnant while you sell. Whole idea is to make you play longer.
Price controlling becomes simple. A few clicks and you have bought every sop for sale. A few more and you are selling them all for 1k more. The second somebody lists more sop... you can click click and make them yours and resell.
That is a good point.
Because believe me, I would do that. So sell me your cheap SOP's through a central selling agent. It will make "making money" easier. :p
Nos, get a free trial account for EQ2 or WOW. Both of these games have an offline selling system. I assure you that once you've played a game that does have a system already in place, you will see what everyone's talking about.
I can honestly say that after playing 4 different MMO's Lineage 2's selling system is the worst I've seen. Why do I think this? Here's why:
1) It inflates the number of people logged in at any given time, increasing server lag.
2) It creates horrible lag in the cities where everyone congregates to sell.
3) For reasons purely outside the game, not everyone has the ability to leave their system logged in to the game when they're not actually playing. Why should these players be unable to participate in the game's economy?
4) Server disconnects can prevent you from selling your items. Let's say I'm at work and my home system gets disconnected. How much potential income did I lose that day?
5) It makes it very difficult to find items that you need. /findprivatestore doesn't cut it when everyone seems to abbreviate or spell things differently in their store windows.
6) To your point about people being too lazy to walk around and look: the designers of this game are going to *have* to get it through their heads at some point that they *must* make the game more approachable than it is now or it will not last. That is the single biggest advantage all the other popular MMO's have over L2: it's easier for a new player to get started. I personally enjoy a challenge, but I have many RL friends who have tried this game and have left it because it simply is not new-player friendly at all. The selling system is just one example of what I'm talking about.
Part of the game is buying and selling the stuff that you aquire over time. How dull would it be to just have a list of the same things all listed at the same price. Where's the fun in that??? Searching for the bargain (whoops someone missed a nought off) or being in a situation of "How much?? But I really need it so what the hell" is all part and parcel of Lineage. Central selling - and not only that but having to pay for the privilage - would IMO be boring as hell.
QFT
And allso what people say about cheapest items disapearingg within seconds, often just for other people to set them up into the same NPC for higher price.
This statement is like begging me for a pk. Im not going to play WoW. I did try EQ2 for about 6 hours and went straight back to L2. The point is L2 has alot of different things that make the game great. I dont want it to be anything like other games. I dont want to try WoW. I laugh at the WoW community. But ya know what would be a good suggestion besides this auction house nonsense. L2 versus WoW yeah we could all get out or lvl 30 and own all of WoW get some free pvp points. Now that I think is a fine idea.
yeah sure. If someone wants to scam let them. Also if someone is to lazy to walk around to find what there looking for thats not a problem the rest of the game should have to suffer for. Why everyone so upset about scamming? If your someone that thought a prrof of blood for 10 mil adena was a good deal or something like that then you deserve to be scammed. And the main point an auction house of some sort would kill what alot of players make a big part of there game. They play the market. What you want taken out next? pvp? maybe do away with castle seiges??
Again...for a second, I wasn't going to respond to this because I'm hoping that you will re-read what you wrote, realize that it makes no sense, and then write a reasonable reply. Unfortunately, I have a bad habit of trying understand how people can take one part of a whole and try to base an entire argument off of it.
My points had very little to do with scamming. Honestly, it was just one of the aspects of the current system that could be changed with implementing a central selling area. Why would you just concentrate on how silly people are for being scammed. I'll tell you why...because most of us would agree that people are silly for being scammed. It was an easy way to make a point about nothing and getting people to back up a lazy rebuttle. What about the lag? What about the inflation? What about the ease of selling? Did either of these points even register while you were reading my post?
As far as I can see, technically, the only majorlly noticable difference between Lineage2's system and WoW's system is the ability to do something other then sell an item while attempting to sell an item.
Since most of the time in Lineage2 you sell AFK for any extended sales, you check the market just before you set up your shop to determine prices etc. Exactlly the same in WoW. Look at the auction house, decide on my prices, maybe buy alittle and relist, etc. However in WoW, I can either log out or play. In Lineage2, my only options are stop playing ( but leave the game going ), or to just SIT there.
HOWEVER : It is possible to move an item in Lineage2 when another item is for sale for less at any given time. Adding an auction house makes this impossible and what I think alot of the arguing biols down to. Both games afford the possiblity to control / influence the economy , but only in Lineage2 is it possible for me to sell a sword for 1.5 mill on one side of Giran while another guy sells the same sword for 1.2 mill on the other side of town. Or a different town, or whatever. With an auction house listing the ability to do this is taken away, as you will have both prices listed to you at one central location.
Either way IMO its still possible to play a market and make money in either scenario, one is just easier while not affording all the same options as the other.
Lag: not all users are affected by lag. I almost never lag. And when I do, i generally solve lowering graphical details.
Inflation: IMHO that affects almost only the people that grind and dont play the market at all.. if you play the market, you dont only have the disadvantages of inflation, but also the benefits (selling at higher prices).
Also, people with large amount of money will be able in only a few clicks to get hold of massive quantities of material, leaving everyone else to deal with the big prices again.
My point was to try a game that has a system like what people are asking for so you can see how good it can be.
I didn't mean that I think L2 should become a clone of any other game. What I meant was there are features in other MMO's that would benefit L2 greatly.
EQ2 does have a central selling system and the postive effect is you can find things easily.
But what MANY Eq2 players complain about is lack of player interaction and a place where players can gather. Towns are practically empty becuase of the central selling system.
Lineage II at least has Giran and some other towns filled with people making the game world seemingly alive. I like that when I walk into Giran I see other players in town. The lag and the crowded staircases are a minor incovinience. With a central selling system Giran would be empty. (Another example is COH with the Atlas globe where players high or low level gather as well but they gather there for interaction not for economic reasons).
It is enough as is that I have a hard time finding a player out in XP areas and the world is so huge and barren but a central system would make the gaming world really barren.
MMORPG's are about player interaction first and foremost. If you do not care aout player interaction singe player RPG's are a better option. Just my opinion. :cool:
Private shops cause inflation.
Farmers cause inflation.
Neither of those are the reason for inflation. The reason prices have been rising steadily since the first day of C3 is due to 60% recipies. A central seller will do NOTHING to stop inflation.
ok as i pointed out in a similar post running a pc with 1.2 gig processor and 512 ram. below what i should be to run the game. I walk around giran fine. bit of lag bot nothing i cant handle.What about inflation? Go grind ya some adena. Or just dont buy an item you think cost to much. I know I wouldnt.ease of selling. I never have a problem selling. advertise your product in your store message. If you would like I can walk you through that sometime. But someone will buy. patience is needed. In any part of this game. Of course this stuff registered. and registered as no big deal.
no worries dude. I just disagree with the idea. I did play RF for a while. wont recommend that game to anyone. It sent me back here to. It used an auction house system. I hated it.
Sure I would like to be able to XP while being able to sell items and materials. That sounds like a great deal to me!
But is it worth sacrificing player interaction by doing this?
And another thing as one person pointed is that inflation would not go away. A lot of WoW players flock to new servers becuase inflation is not so bad when the new servers are brought up but in a few months the new server turns into just like the other servers. It is only a matter time before those unmentionables gain a foothold on the ingame economy.
MMORPG's are about player interaction first and foremost. If you do not care aout player interaction singe player RPG's are a better option. Just my opinion. :cool:
Not to attempt to derail the discussion at hand, but just to point out that the concept of of interaction between players in an MMORPG is on a sliding scale. I.E what you define as the level of player interaction needed to enjoy the game, may not be at the same level another player defines it at.
sure i see your point about xp'ing while selling. personally i use private store when i want to commit suicide from grinding all day. I sit in town relaxe talk to people passin by.I enjoy that part of the game to
MMORPG's are about player interaction first and foremost. If you do not care aout player interaction singe player RPG's are a better option. Just my opinion. :cool:
Not to attempt to derail the discussion at hand, but just to point out that the concept of of interaction between players in an MMORPG is on a sliding scale. I.E what you define as the level of player interaction needed to enjoy the game, may not be at the same level another player defines it at.
/rambling off.
True but lets just say I do not want the scale to slide to far to that extreme.
True but lets just say I do not want the scale to slide to far to that extreme.
In the end, thats just a matter of opinion ( and this in no way will lead to me discussing if yours is right or wrong, becuase its all in the mind of the person thinking it. ), and either you like a thing, or you hate a thing.
Honestlly, the system in place in Lineage2 atm while slightly crude, gets the job done in a way the majority of the players feel is fine ( the game has been out how long? ). I dont see them changing the selling dynamics by adding a central selling point any time soon, just becuase the one they have now, works.
I think the issue is that there is freedom to raise prices how the players see fit.
It is ok to inflate prices. In real life companies/stores do it all the time. There are many reasons for this. Sometimes they are "legit" and sometimes they are not.
The idea of a player run economy is that the players can set their prices based on how common or uncommon the items are, how easy they are to find, etc.
In the end, if I charge 10 million for no grade gear, no one is going to buy it.
The game is designed so that people need to really search for bargains. You may or may not like this type of thing but it is what it is.
I also think that the current system invites inflated prices and a central selling npc invites deflated prices.
Posted by Sovrath
here are the problems with it.
Price controlling becomes simple. A few clicks and you have bought every sop for sale. A few more and you are selling them all for 1k more. The second somebody lists more sop... you can click click and make them yours and resell. This is possible right now, but it is a lot more work, and there is a good chance you will miss some. If you want to control the market, it should be difficult.
Also it makes all prices everywhere the same. ss/sps is a higher price if you buy it in hv/oren/rune or some other out of the way place. This is a good thing imo. I once made a dwarf just to haul ss that I bought in giran down to heine to sell for 3a more per shot. I sold out fast and made a few quick bucks at it. A few days of this and suddenly there were dwarf shops setup selling adena for normal prices.
It makes the worlds smaller.
It kills town populations.
The cheapest item will always be bought instantly lessoning your chance of finding a good deal.
Okay Sovrath and HiEverybody...
When I say a central selling NPC...I mean a different one in every town. This would allow people to set up different sale items in multiple villages.
You would still have the option to set prices as high as you like, there would be no loss of freedom in pricing.
As far as people buying out everyone that is selling certain items and then raising the prices... This happens everyday already. And it's not as hard as you think. With the exception of soulshots and potions, you would be hard pressed to find 10 sellers in any town selling the same items you're selling at any given time. If I'm in Giran selling EAC or EAB, there may be 4 other people selling. For a market player, it's not hard to find these people and buy them out. Heck..Darkmotion brags about doing it all the time.... ;)
The fact that the cheapest item will always be bought instantly, will make playing the market much more rewarding. Also, it will get rid of stupid situations like:
Seller: WTS Boots of Power...
Purchaser: How much?
Seller: Offer...
Which I think is such a waste of time...If a central selling place is implemented, people will start including their prices in the shouts with the hopes of beating out the central sellers.
And items in Lineage2 cannot ever be deflated since there is a base price in the game. No one will ever sell lower than the NPC price.
As far as making the world smaller and making towns less populated.... I just thought that was cute... :D Since when is having a bunch of AFK people considered to be an enriching population. There's nothing I like better than having a good RPG moment or conversation with someone's merchant toon while they're gone to the mall or sleeping.
Even if there was one in every town (which I got from your post) you would still have an easier time finding everything at once, it would just be in that city. Which leads to the second point:
Yes, people buy up all the items they can get and resell them (I know I do) but it is harder in our current system to find all the items, or the best "lots" of items to buy.
In the central seller system, I can see all the "lots" of items and pick and choose which I should buy up. In our current system I have to go to every store. Sometimes I miss some. Because of this, I might use up my "allowance" by buying what I think are the lowest price items only to find out that I could have bought even more at a lower price from a hidden seller.
Though in the end, I really don't care. Central seller, shops, whatever. As long as I can get my stuff.
eh. I do love new players. But do we want players that want to play an easier game? that is a tough question for me. Something bout the words "user friendly" really bother me. Some reason I find pride in knowing I can do things that others can not. So yes new players are nice. But if this game gets to easy and my IQ drops a couple points when I log in I might have to be on my way. So New players are great. But would getting new players in the game cost us some of our old ones? cant say for sure. maybe we could get some answers on that.
Even if there was one in every town (which I got from your post) you would still have an easier time finding everything at once, it would just be in that city. Which leads to the second point:
Yes, people buy up all the items they can get and resell them (I know I do) but it is harder in our current system to find all the items, or the best "lots" of items to buy.
In the central seller system, I can see all the "lots" of items and pick and choose which I should buy up. In our current system I have to go to every store. Sometimes I miss some. Because of this, I might use up my "allowance" by buying what I think are the lowest price items only to find out that I could have bought even more at a lower price from a hidden seller.
Though in the end, I really don't care. Central seller, shops, whatever. As long as I can get my stuff.
It's all about the stuff.
True..you can pick up lots of items...but you will still miss alot of them. Why? because not everyone will place their items on sale at the same time. It's not like the everyone who has ani. bones for sale will place them all at once. And you cannot be logged in at all times to take advantage of sales that will happen all through the day. Case in point...you're here now...reading posts. I assume that right now, you're not buying and selling online. Even if you bought up all the SOP's or ani bones that were for sale for a three hour period and set your price. Someone else could log in and undercut you in a sec. It would really require savvy to make money by leveraged buyouts on a daily basis.
Secondly....what's wrong with being able to find items easily??? I swear...that is the one thing I will never be able to fathom about the die-hard forum hounds is the preconception that it's not a game if it's not full of enough mind-numbing tedium to really make you sick of playing it. There are no prizes for suffering through this game...When you reach level 75 by struggling level by level playing with a gladius and bronze armor...No magical GM will jump out and reward you with S grade because you ground yourself to dirt to do it. C'mon man...being able to easily find stuff you want to buy in town should not be considered a luxury. What if they arranged shopping areas like that in real life. Just set stores up on top of other stores with no kind of map or guide? Can you imagine a mall with Abercrombie sitting next to the GAP with a big "SCAMMER ---->" sign pointed at them? Or sitting right by them so closely that you couldn't even walk into the GAP's door?
To start off, let me say that I played L2 from prelude to C1, then moved on to Eq2 which I played for 3 months before jumping on the WoW bandwagon. After two years of World of Warcraft I returned to Lineage2. Why? Because of the player run economy.
You see, with a central system you have no real risk in selling an item. This may sound odd at first so let me explain what I mean by “risk” (using C grade gear, as this is where I picked up after reactivating). If I have a Yaksa mace and I want to sell it >now< I will have to set my price lower then the standard price most merchants have set in town so that someone who maybe didn’t want it “badly” will pick it up reasonably fast. In a system like WoW you can just toss it up on the auction house and let it sit for 7 hours while you raid, pvp, play an alt, or log off and do homework – there is no time risks or (good) rewards for your time. In Lineage, If I setup to sell my Yaksa for 11.5 mil, sure it will sell, but I have to sit there (most of the time) and wait it out for multiple hours. Or I could put it up at 10.5mil and sell it within 30 minutes. To some people, that extra million is not worth their time, to others it is and they are willing to sacrifice their time to earn it.
In Lineage a player that is patient when purchasing items will >always< come across someone looking for a quick sell so they can buy something else and get back to grinding, or crafting (or whatever). A central system makes the risks and rewards of the market almost moot, which in my opinion is completely boring.
Also, smokie, I do believe that having players scattered around a town enriches the world. Although a lot of them are afk, the chat is always busy and people are moving around. When I reactivated I was only 38, and after doing my class change quests back on Orc island – I welcome the chatter and activity of Giran. However, it still makes me sad to see only a couple of active towns, as my memory is still of late in prelude when towns from gludio to dion to giran were full of players.
How many times does it have to be pointed out that this game is not real life? making comparisons in game to real life doesnt help make your point. Sure I spend hours lost inside the game. But in no way does it reflect my real life. This game is meant to be a challenge. Its something you take when you sign up to play. Why not have a look at my levels in my sig. Not to high huh. Im not concerned with it I spend alot of time playing the market rather than grind. Playing the market is searching for the great deals and search hard for it. When im really in a mood to find stuff to buy I will port to every town and look at every shop. Evnetually to make my way back to dion or Giran with tons of stuff to sell for profit. I make a day or even sometimes a weekend out of it. So if we want we could compare that to real life. Say a day you would spend at the mall looking for stuff to buy. If your idea did apply to real life you would walk up to a box looking somewhat like an atm maybe type in what you want and it will appear in front of you. I dont know what mall you go to. But i certainly do not have that luxury at my local mall.
I may not be able to buy "all" the items, true, but I can buy all the items for sale at that one time, set up shop, and then be the only person for a particular time that has them.
Also, as the above poster mentioned, there is something to having a full vibrant city with shops all over the place as opposed to a large empty square with nothing.
The system the way it is now allows for the illusion of a "city".
As far as finding things easier, sure, as a buyer I want to find things easier. But as a seller I only want MY items to be found easier.
See..I cant haggle with an NPC Seller. I can haggle with your sell shop. Thats all that bothers me.
The NPC Seller would be set up like this:
You click on the seller and choose a category.
Let's say you choose Armor.
Then you click on B-Grade.
Then you view your choices and find the armor you want to buy.
The item and the seller's name is present, but you don't have enough money to meet his price. You can PM the original seller and ask if he can lower the price. If he is online, he'll have the option to remove the item from the sales list -minus a small fee and then sell it to you for the price you agreed on...(I'm sure he would pass the cost of removing the item from the sales list on to you).
I think this particular thread has gone on a bit too long, same points over and over again, no change in the arguments. I stick with my 1 opinion I put in this thread. Other than that (and some excellent other points that have been made by several other peeps) enough already - let it drop!
I may not be able to buy "all" the items, true, but I can buy all the items for sale at that one time, set up shop, and then be the only person for a particular time that has them.
Also, as the above poster mentioned, there is something to having a full vibrant city with shops all over the place as opposed to a large empty square with nothing.
The system the way it is now allows for the illusion of a "city".
As far as finding things easier, sure, as a buyer I want to find things easier. But as a seller I only want MY items to be found easier.
And being the only person to have the items at that particular time would not doubt be very profitable for you. A win in your column.
Clutter is not vibrance. It's not even a decent illusion. Plus, it could be equally argued that if less people were saddled with AFK shops in town they would be out exp'ing and filling this vast expanse of countryside outside of Giran with real players.
And as far as only wanting your items found easily...spoken like a true entrepreneur. That kind of attitude would make you really hustle to get the sale and make all kinds of deals in game. It will make the market more competitive. Right now everyone is just leeching on people making mistakes.
Would be nice to have both options available for the different players. You can still set up the private store feature but for those who are unable to maintian a store for extended periods (i.e. bad connection, vacation, etc) they have the ability to list the item in the central area. This way thre is now the same market except one seller has a lot more stuff in his "private store."
What would be nice fromt his is if they could then tie that central vendor to these boards are something and you can play the market from out of the game also.
How many times does it have to be pointed out that this game is not real life? making comparisons in game to real life doesnt help make your point. Sure I spend hours lost inside the game. But in no way does it reflect my real life. This game is meant to be a challenge. Its something you take when you sign up to play. Why not have a look at my levels in my sig. Not to high huh. Im not concerned with it I spend alot of time playing the market rather than grind. Playing the market is searching for the great deals and search hard for it. When im really in a mood to find stuff to buy I will port to every town and look at every shop. Evnetually to make my way back to dion or Giran with tons of stuff to sell for profit. I make a day or even sometimes a weekend out of it. So if we want we could compare that to real life. Say a day you would spend at the mall looking for stuff to buy. If your idea did apply to real life you would walk up to a box looking somewhat like an atm maybe type in what you want and it will appear in front of you. I dont know what mall you go to. But i certainly do not have that luxury at my local mall.
But you do at home....
It's called the internet. You type in what you want...and it magically appears...Imagine that!!
If you've been paying attention to my posts Nos....(which I know you haven't) you would see that there are still ways in which a deal minded guy like yourself could profit under a central selling agent. It would just be minus the negative effects of the current system. At times you would be able to corner the market, sometimes you will find great deals and be the first to snatch them up. You can set up multiple purchase points in every city and profit on more income streams. You can undercut existing prices if you wanted or if you saw a shortage of items listed, you would know which ones to get and sell for a quick profit.
I just don't think you're seeing all the beneficial possibilites this could have for the merchant class. Not to mention the buyers in general.
alright smokey... i have an argument that destroys all of your arguments.
This system will be designed and implimented by NCsoft.
Do you really want them makeing any changes to something taht works? god know I don't. The odds are that you will try to buy an item, but there will be 40% chance that the exchange will fail, and all your adena will dissapear.
I am paying attention. I see the part where you want to take a way a huge part of my game.This suggestion shouldnt even be made. The current set up for buying and selling is perfect to the nature of the game. I will stand by how I fell about the situation. It is something that would indeed be a turn for the worse in this game if it was added. It takes a way a certain freedom of doing your private shops. I choose to play games that allow a great deal of freedom and this is a perfect example of someone trying to remove a freedom no matter how small. Its no better than the threads that insist no one should be able to pk in a starter town. Your point will not get through to me no matter how much you try. And if it makes you feel better I do not do internet shopping if I can avoid it. I prefer to get out of the house and mingle with the people :)
I do not mind the system as it is, and my first thought on the Central Seller system would be against it. But was thinking about it and the conditions that would make it work.
First, Each town would have to work seperately so you couldn't buy something from Dion at the Seller in Giran and so on.
Second, Do not eliminate the Private shops, keep them as an option. there are benefits to setting up private shops in obscure locations like right next to the WH keeper or in the Cats/Necs etc.
Third, Charge a handling fee to post in the central store. Make it a Percentage of the total asking price. Say 5% or so (purely hypothetical) If Item is removed by the seller prematurely charge a removal fee less than the handling fee. (Say like 1/2 or 1/4 or maybe even a flat fee.)
Was thinking possibly even have a listing delay of an hour or so before item is available for purchase. Whatcha think?
I do not mind the system as it is, and my first thought on the Central Seller system would be against it. But was thinking about it and the conditions that would make it work.
First, Each town would have to work seperately so you couldn't buy something from Dion at the Seller in Giran and so on.
Second, Do not eliminate the Private shops, keep them as an option. there are benefits to setting up private shops in obscure locations like right next to the WH keeper or in the Cats/Necs etc.
Third, Charge a handling fee to post in the central store. Make it a Percentage of the total asking price. Say 5% or so (purely hypothetical) If Item is removed by the seller prematurely charge a removal fee less than the handling fee. (Say like 1/2 or 1/4 or maybe even a flat fee.)
Was thinking possibly even have a listing delay of an hour or so before item is available for purchase. Whatcha think?
These posts are interesting though they always have the same theme. I think the most obvious thing that comes out of them is the great variety of play styles lineage 2 players enjoy.
Two play styles with regard to the economy:
1. This player thinks searching through all the player stores is a tedious waste of time. They will pay more for items in the current system as they don't spend the hours necessary to check lots of private stores continuously over time. This player will grind more generating more money and mats.
2. Another player does nothing but check private stores all weekend with little or no grinding out side of town. This player will pay less for items but will grind less generating less adena or xp. This player increases the costs of the first player (the adena they make came from someone else killing a mob).
It really is what do you find fun; obviously a central selling NPC helps the first style but it almost completely erases the rewards for the second style. It would take orders of magnitude less time to check the price of SOP in Giran with a central NPC - giving the same level of trading ability to some one who is willing to spend 10 minutes looking for a good deal as the person who was willing to spend 2 hours.
Right now one can trade time (time which could be used to get xp/drops) for adena by looking for good deals or adena for time by buying the first item they find. Saying nothing is lost by having a central selling NPC you ignore the fun of finding a good deal or two after searching all the player shops, a joy much like getting a good drop.
About inflation:
I argue playing the market at all causes inflation with or without a central NPC. A central NPC might actually lead to an increase in inflation.
Now there is a cost in time associated to the buy low/sell high - one has to be logged in and not grinding on that account. If someone sees 2k SOP at 1a less than market they probably won't buy them and try to sell at market, it just isn't enough adena to bother with and grinding would give a bigger profit.
With a central NPC anyone who notices any SOP even 1a less than market might as well buy it and put it up at market (only a few extra clicks - they are at the NPC already), it will probably sell and they can go right back to grinding.
I really don’t see how a central NPC would lower prices. Wouldn’t everyone just sell at the higher prices and if anything came up under them it would be instantly bought and re-listed at the higher price?
I do not mind the system as it is, and my first thought on the Central Seller system would be against it. But was thinking about it and the conditions that would make it work.
First, Each town would have to work seperately so you couldn't buy something from Dion at the Seller in Giran and so on.
Second, Do not eliminate the Private shops, keep them as an option. there are benefits to setting up private shops in obscure locations like right next to the WH keeper or in the Cats/Necs etc.
Third, Charge a handling fee to post in the central store. Make it a Percentage of the total asking price. Say 5% or so (purely hypothetical) If Item is removed by the seller prematurely charge a removal fee less than the handling fee. (Say like 1/2 or 1/4 or maybe even a flat fee.)
Was thinking possibly even have a listing delay of an hour or so before item is available for purchase. Whatcha think?
Works great for me....
One caveat though...
All Sell shops set up within town have a maximum 120 minute timer before they are teleported to a random part of town.
I do not mind the system as it is, and my first thought on the Central Seller system would be against it. But was thinking about it and the conditions that would make it work.
First, Each town would have to work seperately so you couldn't buy something from Dion at the Seller in Giran and so on.
Second, Do not eliminate the Private shops, keep them as an option. there are benefits to setting up private shops in obscure locations like right next to the WH keeper or in the Cats/Necs etc.
Third, Charge a handling fee to post in the central store. Make it a Percentage of the total asking price. Say 5% or so (purely hypothetical) If Item is removed by the seller prematurely charge a removal fee less than the handling fee. (Say like 1/2 or 1/4 or maybe even a flat fee.)
Was thinking possibly even have a listing delay of an hour or so before item is available for purchase. Whatcha think?
I like this idea Populater.
This fixes the inflation problems with the NPC, it also makes the NPC a help for sellers but doesn't change much for buyers (though selling for more than what someone is selling for on the NPC would be harder, this is not a bad thing as the NPC adds some costs). One would expect items at the NPC to cost more than private shops.
This gives benefits of both systems without much of the problems of either: it provides people a way to sell without being able to stay logged in for hours/days and still offers the enjoyment of browsing for good deals among private stores. It would be easier to determine the maximum reasonable price for something (if it was on the NPC) and if someone just wanted to buy something fast they could get it from the NPC.
This does add another adena sink which may or may not be a good thing.
I cannot think of any reasons against a selling NPC that charges a percentage as a service along side private stores. I probably missed one; anyone think of something?
PS. ****! I did think of one: now if you want to sell something but don't want to stay logged in a long time you sell a bit under market so it goes fast, with the NPC you can just sell it at market and the customer pays the fees. This causes less good deals. :(
I don't agree with the random teleporting idea. It would make things more confusing than they already are.
Here's my reasoning. The way it is right now, there are a whole lot of stores to look through, but in spite of that, there is a sort of order to it.
On my server, things tend to organize themselves. If I'm looking for spellbooks there is one place those people congregate. Fishing mats congregate to another area, Craft stores usually by Taurin, Crystals by the Lux shop. Not all the stores follow this method, but it seems that a good chunk catch on to the best spot to sell thier wares.
It is beneficial to do this for the buyer and the seller. When the buyers catch on to it, they know where to get what they want with less hassle. The Sellers can capitalize on this by being where they should be and thus will be more likeley to sell out.
Although I do hold that a person that is willing to play the Central NPC market for hours of buying and selling will still have the same experience as they would walking numerous sell shops, your argument for the different play styles is probably one of the best counter-points yet.
I'm all for adding value to the server even at the expense of my own personal enjoyment at times. In my opinion, an AFK player is a waste of server power that could be used for more constructive means. Also, as I stated earlier, it would be hard for any one person or persons to dominate the market for any long period of time if the prices were under more direct competition. No one can buy all sale items at once and people will generally only use the NPC when they are AFK. It's a good option to have to maximize performance, stimulate the market, and get rid of some of the clutter.
The random teleport idea is just to make sure that people that sell in town, stay in town watching their character. Also, it would give a person a reason to use the Central NPC. If you need to sell an item overnight or you need to be AFK for an extended period of time, you would use the NPC or log out and sell later.
When being teleported, your sell shop would end and you would be standing up in your new location.
I do not mind the system as it is, and my first thought on the Central Seller system would be against it. But was thinking about it and the conditions that would make it work.
First, Each town would have to work seperately so you couldn't buy something from Dion at the Seller in Giran and so on.
Second, Do not eliminate the Private shops, keep them as an option. there are benefits to setting up private shops in obscure locations like right next to the WH keeper or in the Cats/Necs etc.
Third, Charge a handling fee to post in the central store. Make it a Percentage of the total asking price. Say 5% or so (purely hypothetical) If Item is removed by the seller prematurely charge a removal fee less than the handling fee. (Say like 1/2 or 1/4 or maybe even a flat fee.)
Was thinking possibly even have a listing delay of an hour or so before item is available for purchase. Whatcha think?
between this and smokies suggestion s I'm getting early SWG flashbacks so why not add a few things that made that system work while allowing for merchants and mrket players to get their way as well . . .
1) an item placed in the NPC seller should have a time limit. If the sale is not made in X time, the item(s) are returned to the players warehouse. If there isn't enough room in the warehouse, they are destroyed.
2) set a price limit in the NPC seller. Say 1 mil or something. That way the high level items will still need to be sold by private sellers. The NPC seller is there to assist the new/intermediate player . . . the experienced ones should know how the market works and still find their needs in private stores.
3) allow for the bundling of base materials (unless we can already) That way you can sell a bag of 100 CBP for X price where as someone else could have a bag for 10 . . or 30.
4) putting something up for sale shoul dhave a set price . . . which is non-refundable should the item not sell . . . or you remove it yourself.
4) all proceeds/fees the NPC takes should go into my pocket cause I'm poor and cute and want a real set of D grade stuff :) from the
didnt you recently say you were ok with having both methods of selling as an option? I almost finally agreed with you but then you found new ways to kill my private store. porting me all over town and cancelling my store. I would be fine with your idea if you left my style alone. But now you want to kill my way all together? well not completely. you will give me an hour and a half to handle my business. Give me both and dont touch how mine works or im still not signed on this.
didnt you recently say you were ok with having both methods of selling as an option? I almost finally agreed with you but then you found new ways to kill my private store. porting me all over town and cancelling my store. I would be fine with your idea if you left my style alone. But now you want to kill my way all together? well not completely. you will give me an hour and a half to handle my business. Give me both and dont touch how mine works or im still not signed on this.
LoL....
What I meant was...If a person set up a sell store, a timer would start that would run down in 120 minutes. The person would have to click on the sell icon and then reenter the sales price before the 120 minutes expired to keep the store active. Otherwise the sell store would end and the player would teleport to a random location in the current town.
So you see...as long as the player is actively working the store, you can shop them as long as you like....
didnt you recently say you were ok with having both methods of selling as an option? I almost finally agreed with you but then you found new ways to kill my private store. porting me all over town and cancelling my store. I would be fine with your idea if you left my style alone. But now you want to kill my way all together? well not completely. you will give me an hour and a half to handle my business. Give me both and dont touch how mine works or im still not signed on this.
LoL....
What I meant was...If a person set up a sell store, a timer would start that would run down in 120 minutes. The person would have to click on the sell icon and then reenter the sales price before the 120 minutes expired to keep the store active. Otherwise the sell store would end and the player would teleport to a random location in the current town.
So you see...as long as the player is actively working the store, you can shop them as long as you like....
Da Smookster...
still with the timers. I have listened to your side all day so i think its time I say.
I think his problem is that such a system would literally require him to use the NPC seller if he was to be afk for an extended amount of time. If he wants to sit afk and sell, he should have that option just like you shoul dhave the option of using the NPC so you don't have to have your PC running all the time.
Its kinda a give and take . . . he's willing to give but you might be taking a bit more than he wants.
though it would appear that you would be willing to sign if a system that didn't alienate the private seller as much? Might I ask what features you would agree upon?
sure can. I will agree to it being optional with no changes to my private store. Major complaint I have on this system is my time is limited how I choose to sell and having to pay the npc for my finds. I pay way to many npc's already. No need to put more in the game that I HAVE to use.
between this and smokies suggestion s I'm getting early SWG flashbacks so why not add a few things that made that system work while allowing for merchants and mrket players to get their way as well . . .
1) an item placed in the NPC seller should have a time limit. If the sale is not made in X time, the item(s) are returned to the players warehouse. If there isn't enough room in the warehouse, they are destroyed.
2) set a price limit in the NPC seller. Say 1 mil or something. That way the high level items will still need to be sold by private sellers. The NPC seller is there to assist the new/intermediate player . . . the experienced ones should know how the market works and still find their needs in private stores.
3) allow for the bundling of base materials (unless we can already) That way you can sell a bag of 100 CBP for X price where as someone else could have a bag for 10 . . or 30.
4) putting something up for sale shoul dhave a set price . . . which is non-refundable should the item not sell . . . or you remove it yourself.
4) all proceeds/fees the NPC takes should go into my pocket cause I'm poor and cute and want a real set of D grade stuff :) from the
I'm for everything you said except for #2 and the second #4....
Shouldn't be a limit on the price of items you can sell in the store but I think that normal tax rates should apply to all sales. The tax rate should be the non-refundable amount you have to pay.
I like the system the way it is now for several reasons.
- The shops add an element of life to a town. Not just because there are shops there, but because there are alot of people checking them.
- Players have some say in their ability to sell.. location, proper signage, even their shops name and clothes all play a part.
Here's what I would like to see.
A new class for Dwarves. The trader. Give them slightly larger WH and Inv space, make them special so that they can be logged in at the same time as other toons on the account.
SKills: Buy slots, sell slots, macro slots. (Macro slots are for shouting your message.. the higher the level the longer the message, more messages, and more frequency you can say it.)
The more transactions you make, the more xp you get for your skills.
The one thing I would really like is if certain areas were designated as spaces to set up shop.. so people can't block the stairs and such.
I like the system the way it is now for several reasons.
- The shops add an element of life to a town. Not just because there are shops there, but because there are alot of people checking them.
- Players have some say in their ability to sell.. location, proper signage, even their shops name and clothes all play a part.
Here's what I would like to see.
A new class for Dwarves. The trader. Give them slightly larger WH and Inv space, make them special so that they can be logged in at the same time as other toons on the account.
SKills: Buy slots, sell slots, macro slots. (Macro slots are for shouting your message.. the higher the level the longer the message, more messages, and more frequency you can say it.)
The more transactions you make, the more xp you get for your skills.
The one thing I would really like is if certain areas were designated as spaces to set up shop.. so people can't block the stairs and such.
ouch that was a brutal murder of the ops suggestion. Dwarves that log in when you have another toon logged and have super shout skills? And the shout skill can gain levels? I dont agree much with what the op is saying. But now for some reason I really REALLY dont mind it. Guess he could have made worse suggestions?
5) It makes it very difficult to find items that you need. /findprivatestore doesn't cut it when everyone seems to abbreviate or spell things differently in their store windows.
pretty sure a change is being made in C5 that will search through actual store items in PC shops, rather than just search through the titles. /bad thing
Clutter is not vibrance. It's not even a decent illusion. Plus, it could be equally argued that if less people were saddled with AFK shops in town they would be out exp'ing and filling this vast expanse of countryside outside of Giran with real players.
clutter > too much clutter > no clutter, as far as game ambiance goes. id rather have a town that is too full of other players than one that is empty. also, if i was forced to go to a website or single NPC to buy things from PC shops in game, that would just ruin the whole feel of the game, and im sure many older players would leave. /bad thing
The NPC Seller would be set up like this:
You click on the seller and choose a category.
you have no idea how much THIS part of your idea sounds like nails-on-chalckboard to me. can you imagine, walking into a town, and no one is there, except there are 3519357398467456 people cluttered around a single NPC, the one YOU have to talk to? several times it has happened to me that there were some 5 people around the werehouse manager, and it made it hard to read his name, not to mention there is no non-/target way to target him. /bad thing
All Sell shops set up within town have a maximum 120 minute timer before they are teleported to a random part of town.
this is completely absurd. as populater pointed out, the part about the current system is good is that you have a general idea of where certain items are being sold. if you want one of those, go to that area. also, it would be frustrating as all [923] to find the one sell shop in town that had what you wanted, and then it dissapears before you can tripple-check that it is what you want, at the price you want.
First, Each town would have to work seperately so you couldn't buy something from Dion at the Seller in Giran and so on.
Second, Do not eliminate the Private shops, keep them as an option. there are benefits to setting up private shops in obscure locations like right next to the WH keeper or in the Cats/Necs etc.
Third, Charge a handling fee to post in the central store. Make it a Percentage of the total asking price. Say 5% or so (purely hypothetical) If Item is removed by the seller prematurely charge a removal fee less than the handling fee. (Say like 1/2 or 1/4 or maybe even a flat fee.)
not a bad idea. this would elimitate the so-called "need" to dualbox just to sell your stuff (which really isnt true, been playing this game a year and have never set up a sell shop overnight, if you have something worth selling a simple shout ussually works). /good thing
not eliminating private shops in obscure places, /priceless.
however, it would still ruin the ambiance of the game. 34535 people standing around one NPC just sounds like an elfy idea to me. also, im sure the "professionals" will find some sort of way to automate selling/buying proceedures, using this sort of single-point market. try to imagine the number of players saying "i cant manor becuase the bots always beat me to it" also saying "i cant buy or sell ANYTHING from the NPC in game, because the bots always beat me to it". private shops that were not set up in the right locations (new players dont know where to set up a shop for ss for example) would never be seen at all, in fact no one would ever buy ss from a private store, because they can get to it faster by using the NPC. it would be a lot of extra work for NC that would provide for a lot of extra chances at failure. bugs would need to be worked out over the next 3-4 chronicles, and theres no point, as someone else said, in breaking something that already works. /bad thing
between this and smokies suggestion s I'm getting early SWG flashbacks so why not add a few things that made that system work while allowing for merchants and mrket players to get their way as well . . .
1) an item placed in the NPC seller should have a time limit. If the sale is not made in X time, the item(s) are returned to the players warehouse. If there isn't enough room in the warehouse, they are destroyed.
2) set a price limit in the NPC seller. Say 1 mil or something. That way the high level items will still need to be sold by private sellers. The NPC seller is there to assist the new/intermediate player . . . the experienced ones should know how the market works and still find their needs in private stores.
3) allow for the bundling of base materials (unless we can already) That way you can sell a bag of 100 CBP for X price where as someone else could have a bag for 10 . . or 30.
4) putting something up for sale shoul dhave a set price . . . which is non-refundable should the item not sell . . . or you remove it yourself.
4) all proceeds/fees the NPC takes should go into my pocket cause I'm poor and cute and want a real set of D grade stuff :) from the
I'm for everything you said except for #2 and the second #4....
Shouldn't be a limit on the price of items you can sell in the store but I think that normal tax rates should apply to all sales. The tax rate should be the non-refundable amount you have to pay.
And no...you get no munny.. :p
Da Smookster...
what'da ya know I can't count to 5 :confused:
anyhow, the reason for the price limit . . . having an NPC seller makes a private store unnecessary in the game. People may like to use them but they would be unnecessary. If you want to add something to compliment the private store (as int he NPC seller) you need a way to make both necessary in the game.
a) the NPC is necessary to log off and still sell your products
b) a private store is necessary if you want to sell high end items.
High end items will almost always be sold via the trade forum or in game shouts. Experienced players who need those high end items know to look to the forums and listen for shouts. They also know know how to search private stores for what they need.
The addition of a NPC seller isn't a bad idea but you can't take away the necessity of private stores.
you'll also find that when people dion't find their gameplay threatened they will be more likely to listen and consider suggestions. Fact is, the addition of an NPC vendor/auction house/market place/whatever you want to call it threatens the play style of many people. Those are the people you need cater to as they are the one who might be losing what they like about the game.
A more efficient way of finding what you're looking for would be nice, but they really just need to fix one thing about private stores ..... GET THEM OFF THE STAIRS AND SIDEWALKS!!! :p
Okay..okay...the teleporting thing is obviously out....I'll just have to rethink it. Get back to you on that one..
Giran will still have the same amount of traffic minus the multiple afk shops. Now as for the insane number of people you said would be standing around the NPC, I challenge you to go to Giran tonight and count the number of people in any area actively checking the shops. You may find 20 at any given time. About the same amount of folks that use the gatekeeper or Dusk and Dawn priest. I assure you, it won't be as many as you think...
this problem, as i mentioned, even occurs when there are 4+ people atanding around one NPC. the current system spreads out buyers/sellers across an entire town, and i can be pretty sure that if i stand next to a private shop in town i will not be surrounded but the megaman clan while standing there, whereas in your suggestion while i stand next to the NPC is can be pretty sure that other players will come up to the NPC behind me, blocking me in and forcing me to /useitem soe or /unstuck to get out of the crowd.
linky to describe my point (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shots&Number=623163&Forum= All_Forums&Words=megaman&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Mai n=623163&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange =1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=#Post623163)
ETA: also id point out that the dawn preist and GK are only semi-crowded because people either walk up to them and trade them quest-type items then leave, or use them to port out. the NPC seller is not a single trade. people who are playing the market will stand there all day, while other people walk up and try to get to the NPC = overcrowding.
I think maybe the people who defend the old ways so hard are the ones who either
1)Have used the shops to scam morons
or
2)Are too lazy to use a central NPC to sell things
As someone who has played many MMO's the most effective system for the economy I've seen came from FFXI. Not a really fun game, but they had an auction house that worked really well. The people that had things worth selling still made plenty of money, but there was no clutter problem, and no high traffic problem. It wasn't a "bid" type auction, necessarily, either. There was a minimum bid set by the seller which couldn't be seen by the buyer. You bid w/e you want to pay, and if someone selling that item set their min bid at or below that price, the item is yours. Simple enough. No Clutter, not required to be logged in, no fat old men sitting on the steps of towns peddling things no one's ever going to buy.
The system works now, so I'm not too worried about it either way, but it would be nice to walk through Giran without dodging the shops. :)
I think maybe the people who defend the old ways so hard are the ones who either
1)Have used the shops to scam morons
or
2)Are too lazy to use a central NPC to sell things
you obviously didnt put any thought into that. First if you get scammed its your fault. Not the person that out smarted you. I was in giran one day and saw a store saying they were selling EWA for 8 mil. My heart started racing! OMG what a deal this will be. BUT I checked what I was doing and it was armor enchants. So I didnt buy. Its that easy. Next. To lazy to use an npc? Ok kids this is why you dont drink before you come to the forums. There is alot more work involved in looking through each store rather than walking up to an npc and telling it what you want.
Nos = using shops to scam. And he's ticked people are thinking about taking away his cash. This is my point. He wants to sit on his butt and take advantage of people. GG.
Oh, and before you go shooting your mouth off again, why don't you come up with ONE SPECIFIC reason why they shouldn't change it? Because I can come up with plenty as to why they should. Change is a good thing. Shut your mouth and embrace it.
Nos = using shops to scam. And he's ticked people are thinking about taking away his cash. This is my point. He wants to sit on his butt and take advantage of people. GG.
Oh, and before you go shooting your mouth off again, why don't you come up with ONE SPECIFIC reason why they shouldn't change it? Because I can come up with plenty as to why they should. Change is a good thing. Shut your mouth and embrace it.
'
ONE GOOD REASON!! I dont play WoW! I dont scam. Not my fault you fall for scams though. Why dont you head over to the hindemith boards and learn something about me before you run your mouth. And read the whole thread. I agreed to the idea you can have your npc. Im keeping my private store. The minute this game is easier for someone as smart as you im pulling the plug on my account. I want screens of my scam back it up!
Simple solution to the crowding around the NPC problem would be to have 3 or 4 NPC's per town. I find myself going to different Warehouse NPC's in Giran to avoid the traffic. Same principal applied to different feature.
I think the limit on amount of adena is unnecessary. If anything, would want it the other way around so that Consumables like pots, and shots should be kept in Private stores to encourage competition. But I don't think that is necessary. It's a Cost/Reward balance issue mainly. I wouldn't mind seeing a Central NPC Seller as long as there is some sort of Cost to it. whether it be Adena, time, or both. As it is Setting up an AFK Private store cost Time or XP depending how you see things. A NPC Store would take away that cost so another type of cost would have to be added.
Think of Soulshot/SpiritShot, Heal pots, Haste pots, etc. It make you level faster, but it cost a bit. If you spam it you will be poorer. It's a system of give and take. If you want to level faster you will have to be poorer, if you want to be richer you will level slower. Same premise i'd go after in this type of system. And I know there are exceptions to the comparison I gave but just go with it.
Nos = using shops to scam. And he's ticked people are thinking about taking away his cash. This is my point. He wants to sit on his butt and take advantage of people. GG.
Oh, and before you go shooting your mouth off again, why don't you come up with ONE SPECIFIC reason why they shouldn't change it? Because I can come up with plenty as to why they should. Change is a good thing. Shut your mouth and embrace it.
you may want to reread the forum rules and edit this post, im pretty sure its not kosher to blame speciffic people for scamming, especially when you have no evidence whatsoever that he is a scammer, except your own opinion that all people that disagree with you are scammers O.o
@populator: once again, good suggestions. if they put one of these on each of the four corners of giran, it migh actually spread out shops a bit more (since the private shops would be located near trafficy areas, and each of the buy/sell would create a higher traffic area), leaving more space between private shops. as for incentive to keep private shops...what if the fee for selling items what not based on the number of types of items, but the total number of items being sold. thus using the NPC to sell 5645 would cost 5645 x 5 adena (assuming the handling fee is 5 adena, but really it should be a small % of the requested selling/buying price). viola, no one uses private shops to sell consumables.
another problem. lets say i have a chrono, and want to sell it using the NPC, but it has not sold yet. would the physical location of the chrono be with the NPC, or still safe in my werehouse? if its with the NPC, id have nightmares about server crashes. if its still on my PC until sold, then i could die and drop it, then do i get the money for it? these are all fine-tuning questions, overall, im sort of warming up to the idea too :confused:
@populator: once again, good suggestions. if they put one of these on each of the four corners of giran, it migh actually spread out shops a bit more (since the private shops would be located near trafficy areas, and each of the buy/sell would create a higher traffic area), leaving more space between private shops. as for incentive to keep private shops...what if the fee for selling items what not based on the number of types of items, but the total number of items being sold. thus using the NPC to sell 5645 would cost 5645 x 5 adena (assuming the handling fee is 5 adena, but really it should be a small % of the requested selling/buying price). viola, no one uses private shops to sell consumables.
another problem. lets say i have a chrono, and want to sell it using the NPC, but it has not sold yet. would the physical location of the chrono be with the NPC, or still safe in my werehouse? if its with the NPC, id have nightmares about server crashes. if its still on my PC until sold, then i could die and drop it, then do i get the money for it? these are all fine-tuning questions, overall, im sort of warming up to the idea too :confused:
I'd say if they did something like this it would act like your warehouse in that it is an extension of your character. The items would have to be removed from your inventory and is put into a sort of safe holding for selling it. There would be no risk of losing an item due to server crash as it only being put into the NPC seller bank which would be an extension of your account. As soon as it sells it is instantly transfered to the buyers inventory.
I'm leaning toward it being a fairly heavy fee as it gives a heavy benefit for those that choose to use it and then go out and farm/level. I do NOT want to see Private shops eliminated but I do see the benefits to allowing NPC Sell shop thingies (Name Pending). I would want to allow setting up a Private store to be equally viable option for selling wares.
The way I see it, If I set up say a BoP for 50 mil. I would expect to recieve 45 Mil. The 10% should mostly go to Castle lords as they would be the ones who would be providing the service. I suggest that the fee cannot be changed by the Lords of the Castle.
What should be avoided is to throw the balance of either method toward one side or the other.
I think maybe the people who defend the old ways so hard are the ones who either
1)Have used the shops to scam morons
or
2)Are too lazy to use a central NPC to sell things
As someone who has played many MMO's the most effective system for the economy I've seen came from FFXI. Not a really fun game, but they had an auction house that worked really well. The people that had things worth selling still made plenty of money, but there was no clutter problem, and no high traffic problem. It wasn't a "bid" type auction, necessarily, either. There was a minimum bid set by the seller which couldn't be seen by the buyer. You bid w/e you want to pay, and if someone selling that item set their min bid at or below that price, the item is yours. Simple enough. No Clutter, not required to be logged in, no fat old men sitting on the steps of towns peddling things no one's ever going to buy.
The system works now, so I'm not too worried about it either way, but it would be nice to walk through Giran without dodging the shops. :)
actually if I recall in FF !X you could tab through stuff which was how I always managed to target the auction person as it was sometimes impossible to manually target them.
An easy fix for L2 to would be to put the NPC ona pedastol or raised position so that no one could block targeting them.
I'd say if they did something like this it would act like your warehouse in that it is an extension of your character. The items would have to be removed from your inventory and is put into a sort of safe holding for selling it. There would be no risk of losing an item due to server crash as it only being put into the NPC seller bank which would be an extension of your account. As soon as it sells it is instantly transfered to the buyers inventory.
I'm leaning toward it being a fairly heavy fee as it gives a heavy benefit for those that choose to use it and then go out and farm/level. I do NOT want to see Private shops eliminated but I do see the benefits to allowing NPC Sell shop thingies (Name Pending). I would want to allow setting up a Private store to be equally viable option for selling wares.
The way I see it, If I set up say a BoP for 50 mil. I would expect to recieve 45 Mil. The 10% should mostly go to Castle lords as they would be the ones who would be providing the service. I suggest that the fee cannot be changed by the Lords of the Castle.
What should be avoided is to throw the balance of either method toward one side or the other.
An NPC seller may also necessitate another issue . . . a bank. Private store don't need any kind of bank as the adena is simply transfered to the person directly. An NPC seller would either
1) have to send adena from sales to the person directly
2) send to a "bank" account of the character (most likely attached to the warehouse).
3) send it to the warhouse . . . though a full warhouse (if thats possible) could become an issue.
4) the character would have to return to the NPC to collect their adena.
actually if I recall in FF !X you could tab through stuff which was how I always managed to target the auction person as it was sometimes impossible to manually target them.
You actually just pressed f8 to target a non-character in FFXI.
Crowding an AH or npc, or whatever, should not be an issue that hinders progress. It's laughable that such a basic function as targeting should be such a factor in our suggestions to improve this game.
An NPC seller may also necessitate another issue . . . a bank. Private store don't need any kind of bank as the adena is simply transfered to the person directly. An NPC seller would either
1) have to send adena from sales to the person directly
2) send to a "bank" account of the character (most likely attached to the warehouse).
3) send it to the warhouse . . . though a full warhouse (if thats possible) could become an issue.
4) the character would have to return to the NPC to collect their adena.
i dont see any problem with #4. with #1, a disconnect at a very inconvenient time could cause bugs. #2 takes too much extra code, and is otherwise the same as #4. as for #3, you pointed out the potential problem already.
Ok first of all, peoples stupidity never cease to amaze me. Arguments against this are
"are you too lazy to move around in giran for an hour" - no but I could spend my time actually enjoying the game and leveling instead, and cut down on my electricity bill by not having a shop up all night when i try to sell an item.
or.. "players should be able to sell at what price they want" - INSERT WHATEVER PRICE YOU WANT TO SELL FOR AT THE NPC.
Please don't reply when your IQ is below 90.
Oh and since several people complained about quantity items like materials. Disclude them from the NPC so stuff like mats and potions and parts aren't able to be sold. Only full drop items. That still leaves shops inside town.
Ok first of all, peoples stupidity never cease to amaze me.
QFT
actually, if you had taken 5 minutes to read this thread, you would have noticed that everyone is saying it would work, if done correctly. except for Nos, who seems to be going back and forth because people who are for this idea are not reading what is being discussed keep using personal insults.
Ok first of all, peoples stupidity never cease to amaze me.
QFT
actually, if you had taken 5 minutes to read this thread, you would have noticed that everyone is saying it would work, if done correctly. except for Nos, who seems to be going back and forth because people who are for this idea are not reading what is being discussed keep using personal insults.
your right i am kind of torn in the idea. Main problem is No one will compromise on there idea. all im saying have your npc and leave my store alone. Can even put me in a certain place of town but thats all the limitations im willing to accept. But if no one will give me that im not going for it.
Ok first of all, peoples stupidity never cease to amaze me. Arguments against this are
"are you too lazy to move around in giran for an hour" - no but I could spend my time actually enjoying the game and leveling instead, and cut down on my electricity bill by not having a shop up all night when i try to sell an item.
or.. "players should be able to sell at what price they want" - INSERT WHATEVER PRICE YOU WANT TO SELL FOR AT THE NPC.
Please don't reply when your IQ is below 90.
Oh and since several people complained about quantity items like materials. Disclude them from the NPC so stuff like mats and potions and parts aren't able to be sold. Only full drop items. That still leaves shops inside town.
See how easy it is to compromise?
First of all, to assume that someone is less intelligent than you simply because they disagree with you is just, well, not intelligent.
To be perfectly honest, I am against the idea of an auction house. Why? Because I like the way player shops are now. Can they be better? Definitely (others have listed very good ways of improving player shops so I won't bore you with a repeat of them). If something so fundemental to the game is to be changed, the reasons should be very strong. "Inconvenience" is not a strong enough reason (class change quests are inconvenient. Raiding is inconvenient. Sieges are inconvenient. L2, in general, is inconvenient). Lag? Pfft, I lag more in Gludio than I do in Giran. Explain that (I've never understood it). I like the PvP aspect of buying/selling. When I setup my buy/sell shops I try to get in the head of other players to find the best locations and prices. Yes, different spots in Dion mean radically different outcomes. And, before you accuse me of be a shop scammer, I admit. I've scammed once in a sell shop. I accidently sold EWDs at EAD prices. I scammed myself (they sold quickly, though :p).
I actually started to like some of the ideas that the OP, and others, presented. He was actually starting to win me over until that idiotic random teleporting idea for shops. That really showed his true colors. He said he was for leaving player shops in the game then totally destroyed them. No, he tainted his entire thread with that one suggestion.
I did like the idea of not allowing prices over 1 million (or whatever) adena in the AH. Last thing I want to see is an NPC selling 50 majestic circlets.
Those that say it's boring to spend an hour in Giran looking for deals, well, you don't have to. Just like you don't have to spend hours outside of town grinding. If you want good deals, you spend time in town (or PM a lot of people). Everything in this game is about doing things slowly. You can trade adena for time, just like powerleveling.
Finally, comments like "Please don't reply when your IQ is below 90." make me pretty much discount anything you have to say. If you can't make your case without insulting anyone that disagrees, then your case isn't very strong to begin with.
Oh I'm sorry that everyone doesn't have a strong PC like you do. I'm sorry everyone doesn't have the same connection you do. Also not everyone want to keep sell shops up at night because their parents don't allow it or something. Should they spend their 4 hours of playtime they're allowed to trade in giran?
And I never said any of my ideas should be enforced. They are what they are, ideas and opinions. Some of them match peoples preferences better than the other one.
I still think SOMETHING has to be done. A trade zone is probably best. I just suggested various things to make it smoother for everyone not just the ones with slow PCS. Even if I don't lag in giran cause my PC own and can run 3 Lineage with no problems I still don't want to run around 500 shops.
Oh I'm sorry that everyone doesn't have a strong PC like you do. I'm sorry everyone doesn't have the same connection you do.
You obviously didn't read what I said. I lag tons in Gludio. Giran just isn't that big of a deal.
Also not everyone want to keep sell shops up at night because their parents don't allow it or something. Should they spend their 4 hours of playtime they're allowed to trade in giran?
Grinding is inconvenient. Should I be allowed to pay an NPC to get EXP for me? I don't want to waste 4 hours of my time outside leveling when I could be playing the market instead.
I think you've replied to the wrong post, I said nothing about PC's. In fact I didn't say much at all. I also posted a reply on your own thread in which I mentioned that I agree with some of your points.
For everyone else - some like the idea, some don't, it seems that mainly people dont much like the idea of a central NPC if it restricts the diversity of selling - amounts, how much, where you go - etc and are in favour if it means game play rather than selling and making marketing simpler. Seems this argument is going to go on forever with very little change in direction. A point is made, replied to, argued, same point made again. Etc Etc.
Oh here comes the "young part".. Arrogant ***** how old are you? I'm actually 18 and it's summer and I don't start working until next week so up yours.
Lame *** retaliation.
Madder I just push reply on the nearest reply button it had nothing to do with you. I even gave you 5 stars for your post in my thread.
ok after arguments like that im done talking to you. You dont like that peopla disagree with you so you rresort to name calling. From now on Im going to ignore your suggestions and not offer any feedback on them whatsoever. Try not to point out your age if you cant act it.
Speaking from experience, a central selling NPC like a "broker" just makes sense. Somewhere way back there (can't remember who) hit the nail on the head when he said that the way the system is set up is a seller's market and puts new players (or lazy players) at a disadvantage if they don't have time or dont' know to go around to every person selling anything they want to buy to find the cheapest price. When you have a broker it makes it a buyer's market because you can just pick the cheapest one from the list. Wouldn't this WAY help with the out of control prices?
Speaking from experience, a central selling NPC like a "broker" just makes sense.
Not to all. Player shops "make sense" to me.
Somewhere way back there (can't remember who) hit the nail on the head when he said that the way the system is set up is a seller's market and puts new players (or lazy players) at a disadvantage if they don't have time or dont' know to go around to every person selling anything they want to buy to find the cheapest price. When you have a broker it makes it a buyer's market because you can just pick the cheapest one from the list. Wouldn't this WAY help with the out of control prices?
New players actually have a better advantage since you can compare a player's prices to the NPC shop prices. It's painfully easy to see if you are getting a good deal or not. It's when you get to B grade that you really begin to worry about getting scammed since it's not available at all in NPC shops.
I'm not insuing that it's about being lazy. I do know that this game is so totally geared towards a *hardcore* player, someone who can donate 30 hours a week to playing. I'm someone who may be able to put in 15 and consider myself a more casual MMO player. I'd rather spend my time crafting, or grinding, or raiding, than spend an hour looking for the best price on the item I need to buy. Now, I know in this respect I'm not speaking from experience because i havn't had to go search for anything to buy yet, but just from what i've read here. I really liked the broker system in other games.
SirE please change your avatar i keep hearing the names "Chaaarrrllliiieeeeeeeeee" * unicorn jumping and doing a flip and landing on charlie's ribs*
OH GOD HELP ME
lol I'm just glad its not the creepy puppet looking guy . . . That one is creepy :confused:
back to topic . . . let me explain . . . no wait . . let me sum up . . .
NPC seller
1) more than one per town . . . all interconnected?
2) individual town NPC sellers not interconnected to other towns . . . can't see Giran sales when not in Giran.
3) fee per item that NPC seller sells
4) NPC seller acts as warehouse for the item that is to be sold.
5) character must pick up adena from sale at the NPC vendor.
6) price cap on NPC seller so as to make private shops a necessity for higher grade gear . . . unless you want to sell A grade for a "steal"
7) in game e-mail notification when a sale is made so you know when to pick up your money * added cause I think it would be needed :)
8) players set the prices on the items they wish to sell (up to cap of course)
9) NPC seller to be located slightly above ground level so they can be more easily targeted
10) private shops will NOT CHANGE IN ANY WAY FROM WHAT THEY ARE NOW
I think that about sums up most of the ideas that people thought were good to Ok
For the love of god thank you!! We needed someone to put that all together. Im done arguing the idea all together. Guess I will just see what happens. I do want eveyrone to know though that running around buying and selling is very easy. There is way to check on everything for prices outside of the game. Apparently its a well kept secret as no one has mentioned it. So im goin to keep it that way. Secret of the trade lets say. But just a little bit of applying yourself and this system is not bad. On a normal day I will spend 10-20 minutes doing my shopping. But like I said I wont argue my point anymore.
I'm not insuing that it's about being lazy. I do know that this game is so totally geared towards a *hardcore* player, someone who can donate 30 hours a week to playing. I'm someone who may be able to put in 15 and consider myself a more casual MMO player. I'd rather spend my time crafting, or grinding, or raiding, than spend an hour looking for the best price on the item I need to buy. Now, I know in this respect I'm not speaking from experience because i havn't had to go search for anything to buy yet, but just from what i've read here. I really liked the broker system in other games.
Here's the thing, you don't think twice about grind all day but an hour here or there in Giran is too much for you. Let me give you an example, I've been trying to get majestic gloves crafted since I received the key mats from a raid very shortly after I turned 60. Well, it's been close to a month and I still haven't aquired the recipe. I spend time almost every day in both Aden and Giran looking for that elusive recipe. I see it as merely part of the game. To me, when I finally find that recipe (and the craft fails) that will be almost as exciting as when I level. Perhaps I'm just weird.
1) more than one per town . . . all interconnected?
to be clear, "interconnected" here means that the 4 NPCs in the same town have the same items, the NPCs in different towns are not connected to the markets in each others towns. like in giran and dion, there are multiple "interconnected" manor managers, they do the same thing, having more than one of them just allows multiple points of service.
1) more than one per town . . . all interconnected?
to be clear, "interconnected" here means that the 4 NPCs in the same town have the same items, the NPCs in different towns are not connected to the markets in each others towns. like in giran and dion, there are multiple "interconnected" manor managers, they do the same thing, having more than one of them just allows multiple points of service.
I understand that (my IQ is above 90 :)) and I still say absolutely not!
Take a look around Giran and see what people are selling/buying in different places. There is a reason I will setup one type of buy/sell shop in one place in Dion and not another. It makes a difference. So, NO!
Slight change, introduce shop zones and make shop titles automatically generated by the system.
GOOD ONE. Finally the discussion is getting somewhere. I'm sorry if I was aggrovated before but I don't like people dissing ideas for no apparent reason than "it's been said before" etc... And especially don't like when some [censored] introduces the whole "KID" thing (good one kingdom, good one) or "english is hard to learn". I spoke english when I was 9. Yeah big deal so did you Nos I'm sure since you're american.. I also spoke swedish and serbian.
Slight change, introduce shop zones and make shop titles automatically generated by the system.
GOOD ONE. Finally the discussion is getting somewhere. I'm sorry if I was aggrovated before but I don't like people dissing ideas for no apparent reason than "it's been said before" etc... And especially don't like when some [censored] introduces the whole "KID" thing and "english is hard to learn". I spoke english when I was 9. Yeah big deal so did you Nos I'm sure since you're american.. I also spoke swedish and serbian.
To be fair, that idea has been proposed MANY times. You'd have known that if you'd looked around a bit. Also, you brought age into this discussion, along with the insults.
Isint arguing at this point moot? It's why I gave up on page three. The fact is a system that works is already in place now, while some of these suggestions may be buit INTO that system, I dont see them making any changes / making anything new anytime ever. There are other things both the game designers and the player base feel are more important then this.
I'm sorry? I introduced age into the discussion? He insinuated that I was young by doing the whole bedtime story joke.
Or are you too **** to realise that?
And yeah elrohir I'm sorry that I don't spend my time looking all over the forum. I read what interesting. How about you take some time off the forum, those 12k posts are really getting to you. I hear it's summer now :)
my iq is like, 45+. <--note, my head, its missing.
can you give an example of why you wouldnt want to set up a shop in two places in town instead of just one?
can you give an example of why you wouldnt want to set up a shop in two places in town instead of just one?
No. I'm not saying that I'm any kind of L2 market whiz but I do have a pretty good idea of what will sell in a particular part of town. It doesn't really take a rocket surgeon; trial and error, perhaps.
can you give an example of why you wouldnt want to set up a shop in two places in town instead of just one?
No. I'm not saying that I'm any kind of L2 market whiz but I do have a pretty good idea of what will sell in a particular part of town. It doesn't really take a rocket surgeon; trial and error, perhaps.
hurray topic !!!!!
ok since this is a touchy point lets look at some pros and cons . . .
pro - there is more than one point of sale so muliple toons accessing the "city network" don't congest on the "good" seller.
con / pro - indivual NPC sellers could become specialized. This one could both both ways depending on your view. I personally see it as a con as I kinda like my one stop shopping place :)
con - having them interconnected would make it easier (though it would still be easy) to corner the market on any particular item.
side note . . . "rocket surgeon" ? You've been hanging out at the candy mountain again haven't you?
I can see where a search window or some kind of interface to find things would help. I don't think the central seller is a good idea. I think that people should have to set up shops to sell their wares. People should have to choose between selling or exping. As a way to handle the whole DC issue; I think a way to pay an npc to hawk your wares while you are offline, but it will only work while logged out. That way people who spend their time logged in selling still have an advantage over people who use these NPCs.
ok I think you've officially killed this thread. I tried and tried to keep it going, to keep it some what on topic but you couldn't let things go.
As crude as some people can get, all you know how to do is react. It seems your ego has no bounds.
I'm done, I'm not going to try to help. Let this thread die. Try to start another one and if you remain civil, perhaps I'll try to contribute but as for this one . . . F' it.
For the record, Sir El can be a jerk . . . so can others but while I've been a member, they have NEVER been as defensive or combative as you have shown yourself to be. Why did they say not to post? Because most everytime you do, you dig your hole a little deeper. I don't care how old you are, I don't care wht your social life is. Youhave shown yourself to be a twit and you need to grow up.
ok I think you've officially killed this thread. I tried and tried to keep it going, to keep it some what on topic but you couldn't let things go.
As crude as some people can get, all you know how to do is react. It seems your ego has no bounds.
I'm done, I'm not going to try to help. Let this thread die. Try to start another one and if you remain civil, perhaps I'll try to contribute but as for this one . . . F' it.
For the record, Sir El can be a jerk . . . so can others but while I've been a member, they have NEVER been as defensive or combative as you have shown yourself to be. Why did they say not to post? Because most everytime you do, you dig your hole a little deeper. I don't care how old you are, I don't care wht your social life is. Youhave shown yourself to be a twit and you need to grow up.
I usually try to stay out of mud flinging, however when you make an entrance like this:
Ok first of all, peoples stupidity never cease to amaze me.
You are inviting yourself to some verbal abuse. There is no reason to start a post with the above statement unless your are looking to get flames. The Idea is to contribute your opinion or idea in a respectful manner. If somebody disagrees they should explain why they disagree and then you can disagree with the disagreement. If you have a valid point that doesn't center around "because I say so" or "because you're dumb" or "because it's better that way" then you should be able to explain Why it is better and what benefits it would provide. Then somebody that disagrees can Explain why your premise is faulty or agree on other parts.
You must be respectful to earn respect. That is the basis of communication.
I almost couldn't bring myself to read this same tired cop-out to the question. More freedom to do what...? Scam? Inflate prices? Is this the only part of the game you're trying to save?
Just tell me what freedom it is your keeping. What can you do in an AFK shop that you can't do from a central selling location?
Just like you said, for the 100'th + time, I say Hell no on this, like it or not, this is the better way.
Oh and the thing about scamming, believe it or not, but according to this game, it is perfectly legal to scam people. So if that is your kick, go for it.