So I recently purchased CoV (I was previously a CoH player for some time) in order to take a month long break from WoW (Still <3 WoW, but after rerolling and grinding for about 3 weeks straight, I need a break >.>). Along with CoV came a 2 week trial for Lineage II.
I knew nothing about Lineage, so I went online and did a good amount of research about the game and it's system, etc. I was pretty amped as I began to DL the client. From what I could tell, the game was heavily PvP oriented (big-time PvP fan here), but with astounding class balanced, that focused more on player skill, than one class > another class. Gear was a factor, but not to the extent that it blew skill out of the water.
The lvling system sounded a bit funky, but each MMO has it's own way to go about that and it's never been something I really put into play as to whether or not I would enjoy the game. I'll suffer through months of terrible grinding if the end-game content/PvP is worth it.
Considering the platform was an altered version of the Unreal engine, I figured I should be able to play with very high FPS in even conjested zones, which is a big factor for enjoying PvP. I didn't mind the art design, I dig on anime to an extent.
All in all, it seemed this may be a game I could really sink my teeth into.
Now the following description of what I experienced upon logging in may be a bit skewed since I'm a newb and there may be slight adjustments I could make in order to better it for myself, but here it is.
I created my character and while I am used to fairly limited character options (WoW) I was a bit surpised to see roughly 3-4 choices per hair/face/etc. But whatever, they looked nice, and when a game is going for a certain aesthetic, I can deal with it.
So I enter the world, and at first glance, I can dig it. It'd definatelly a dated engine even on high-end settings, but there is no lag, and that goes a long way for me.
As I do with all games, I immediately jump into options to rebind my keys and UI settings to my liking and here is where my dissapointment REALLY set in.
A game, in the year 2006, in which I can't rebind my keys? Whoa. Click to move? You're joking, right? No strafe, in a game which described it's PvP as fast paced. Where you could jump behind cover to bring someone closer, and yet as I attempted to move around, I felt like my toon had two broken legs and a concussion. I was getting snagged on invisble portions of an object jutting out a relative foot or two. The camera was snapping around in what seemed to be a very sporadic fashion.
I know every game has a learning curve, but coming from WoW, where I can rebind EVERYTHING to my liking, and move around like an acrobat on crack, with total precision, I was floored at how poor the movement was here. I mean, the original unreal engine offered a LOT more in terms of fluid movement, but it feels like the devs destroyed that and.. just ugh. The only thing I can really compare it to is an RTS. Very slow, very clunky, very frustrating. I didn't really feel like I was my character, so much as I was a puppetmaster pulling strings, with limited results.
How do you vets handle/enjoy the movement aspects of this game? Especially in heavily active PvP battles.
Then we have the UI. There is SOME adjustment to be made, but overall, I felt as if it was far too large and occupied too much of the screen. I could ajust the height of the upper chat box, but not the lower, and even then, it demanded that I not make it any lower than what was coded in. My only hotkey options were the F Keys or 1-0, which, being an arrow/numpad user, is very frustrating. I don't like the idea of having to move my hand away from my directional buttons, and/or my mouse cursor away from center screen in order to fire off a skill. I like being able to turn on a dime and fire off a skill in .1 seconds via a hotkey that I assigned.
Perhaps these seem like small gripes overall, and maybe I'm just spoiled with games like WoW, but does this stuff really not bother the greater vet population?
As far as grinding went, it was pretty laxidazy, and seems to be a LONG grind to get anywhere substantial, but like I said, I can deal with that if the end-game and PvP is worth it.
The world was a bit bland from what I could tell, but again, it's a dated engine and I expected as much. For what it was, it was attractive.
Overall, I was just really bummed, cuz from what I read about the class/skills set-up, gear, and PvP balance, this game has a TON of potential, even being as dated as it is. But I simply cannot get past the fact that they offer little to no customization in terms of movement and player control. I can deal with the UI, but moving around like a ******ed zombie is really not something I think I could ever get passed. It was annoying me to just try and move around to kill some lowbie NPCs -- I can't being to imagine how frustrated I would get when trying to menuever around during a castle raid where time is of the essence.
I'm just really curious how you vets feel about this game and what I've listed above, and what bout it keeps you coming back for more, when other games offer so much more. Thanks for your time and responses.
Hm I dunno I like the click to move interface, but if you are use to games like WoW or CS I'm sure it feels weird. There's no reason to strafe in this game because you can't avoid anything that way. Any avoiding you do is skill based, not physical movement based.
A lot of options are very limiting but having played since open beta it doesn't really bother me.
but i can say that ncsoft did really tear the engine appart beyond being noticeably unreal like.
as for the movement.... it gets **** difficult with the camera and movement based on camera position..
you can find your clicking invisible things that'll send you flying towards a direction you weren't expecting at all.
The controlls are setup similarely to that of FPS though, instead of the clunky arrow keys, the AWSD keys are your directional. Use those instead of the clicking, but be forwarned, you'll probably be quite unahppy with the lag.
I'm quite surprised though, your lucky, no lag? The game been so laggy, theres no measurement in comparison to the last expansions.
The movement issues don't bother me much because frankly, movement doesn't matter much in L2. Anytime you're fighting, whether it be against monsters or other players, you're going to be out in the open smacking each other around. About the only instances in which movement does matter is in the case of archers and mages kiting their opponents, and in that case it's much more a matter of movement speed than being able to dart around your opponent. This doesn't even apply in sieges and other large scale PvP since there are so many targets you'll only be worried about taking others down rather than getting out of range yourself.
Personally it was the reverse for me in WoW, it seemed to me that everyone was running around and jumping around like idiots ignoring the laws of physics from time to time. And if anything darting around your opponents merely interfered with your or their targeting ability.
This game has a long, LONG, grind. I can't stress that enough, and coming from WoW you might not even be able to comprehend the level of difference between the two. Some people play this game for years without even coming close to achieving the highest level. Since gear can be enchanted almost limitlessly, even if you do reach that highest level you can keep enchanting your gear to make a more powerful character. In order to play this game you'll either need to have a lot of time available to grind, or be the kind of person that doesn't need to be the most powerful out there and can enjoy the game at other levels.
The reasons I personally stick around this game are three-fold. First, I enjoy the community here. Both the community in game and here on the forums are something you won't find elsewhere. Granted the community I'm speaking of is much more difficult to find in game, as it usually involves joining a good Clan, but it is out there.
The second is the PvP aspect of the game. There are balancing issues as there are in any game, but overall L2 provides a very fun and open ended PvP system. Additionally I like the fact that at any time for any reason I can be attacked. I can also put an arrow through someone's face anywhere except in town if I feel they deserve it.
The last thing that keeps me around is the actual grind itself. It's not particularly difficult or even all that different from other games, but for me it's the only game in which I can grind for hours upon hours without wanting to slam my head against a desk. Part of this is due to the fact that I can solo to max level, another factor is that the grind is sometimes interupted by someone who wants me dead. Since there is a chance of losing equipment on death as well, the grind is made a little more interesting to me by the fact that I need to be careful and make sure some small mistake doesn't get me killed.
L2 is definitely not the game for everyone, it's designed to appeal to a niche group of gamers. There are plenty of things to enjoy about it, and you'll find pretty much every player enjoys a different aspect of the game. I'd suggest sticking around for a while and experimenting to see if you fit within that group.
The lvling system sounded a bit funky, but each MMO has it's own way to go about that and it's never been something I really put into play as to whether or not I would enjoy the game. I'll suffer through months of terrible grinding if the end-game content/PvP is worth it.
If you substitute "months" for "years", you'll get just right assumption.
I've been playing LineageII for 1,5 years already and I'm still not subclassed. That is, I'll spend another year to hit current limit of levels.
Lineage2 is neverending grinding.
Considering the platform was an altered version of the Unreal engine, I figured I should be able to play with very high FPS in even conjested zones, which is a big factor for enjoying PvP.
Unfortunately, when it comes to 500 vs. 500 battles, lags are terrible. But 100 vs. 100 comes quite easy.
How do you vets handle/enjoy the movement aspects of this game? Especially in heavily active PvP battles.
Movement aspect is not a problem. Look at it from strategy games point of view. You click your way around, you select targets with mouse or shortcuts (macro system works well for targetting your favorite enemies).
Attacks/spells automatically move you to desired range. It's simple, but effective.
Some say it's best movement interface in the world.
You can set "Enter chat" box in system options and you'll be able to use WSAD. Can't say it's very useful here though, since you don't have to close up manually in most cases.
Perhaps these seem like small gripes overall, and maybe I'm just spoiled with games like WoW, but does this stuff really not bother the greater vet population?
With Alt+Fx you can switch hotbar, then with Fx select desired action. So far 120 hotbar slots. It's enough. Also you can open skills window and use skills from it.
Not very convenient way for lazy mouse addicts, but quite effective.
We'd be all for more possibilities and customisations. But we play what we have.
I'm just really curious how you vets feel about this game and what I've listed above, and what bout it keeps you coming back for more, when other games offer so much more.
People. In-game politics. Massive pvp possibilities.
And last but not least hardcore level of ahievements. Nothing comes easy in the world of Aden. That's why you are so happy if you achieve your goal.
player and character costomization is certainly lacking. hopefully they will give this more thought in future expansions since they have completed 1/2 the playing world (one full continent now). one reason that keeps me here instead of playing MMOs is that other game producers will charge you money for their expansions, while in L2 you have the freedom to suggest what changes you want in the game, on these boards, and maybe someone will give it some thought, but at any rate the changes will be free. based on what you said about the hotbar:
My only hotkey options were the F Keys or 1-0, which, being an arrow/numpad user, is very frustrating.
i would like to tell you first that there are 10 hotbars, no one really gets by using just one. to access them, use alt+F#. also, use alt+r and play around with macros a bit, they greatly simplify some things, and are very easy to write (do a search on the forums, im sure someone has written a 5-page manual). this is sort of like grouping some actions together in one button. this game has the sharpest learning curve of any other game i know on the market, you are encouraged to explore your UI, as well as the world around you. granted, that doesnt appeal to everyone.
The thing is, I don't think you "get it". This is not to say that the game "should" be to your liking, but you are comparing it to a game that was made for western sensibilites.
Apparently, the Koreans prefer and expect (at least when the game was made) the point and click interface. Even when they introduced the SOGA content in EQII they added "point and click".
The whole idea behind the interface is simplicity. I do have some qualms such as the quest journal or the boxes where the quest dialogues are shown (very small) but everything is made to be streamlined.
As far as the world is concerned, it really is beautiful. I have to say that there are some spots that are incredible. The Light walls in Valley of the saints, the Giants Cave, The majesty of the Tower of Insolence or the Eloquent shape of the Ivory tower.
There is so much of the world to see.
But again... you have to "get it".
This is a pvp game. It is built around the idea that you grind grind grind and Pvp. When you die you lose xp so you need to keep "feeding the beast".
The pvp can be incredible. Very very fast paced, the best fighting animations that I've seen. The armor and weapons are exquisitley detailed.
The feel of the world is majestic and Epic.
it can't be compared to WoW.
WoW is a game with seemingly fun quests, a whimsical world for people who are not too hardcore.
In this game you have to love the grind, have to love pvp and have to have the drive to grind your way to the top.
No matter what people say, this game is very very hard to level in. Especially if you only have a few hours to play.
Why do I come back?Well, besides the Art design, the sieges can be incredible.
I recall running along one of Gludio's walls, looking down, and seeing a mass of pvp going on down below as two siege Golems slowly made their way to the wall. It seriously reminded me of "The Lord of the Rings" (only not so many people ;) )
However, this game is not for everyone. It either clicks with you or it doesn't.
And again, as far as the interface. It isn't made for us. It is made for a different sensibility. This is not to say that we won't see more western interface elements from these types of games, but remember, this game is 2 years old. They probably started designing it several years earlier.
Though I don't like certain things about the game I have to say, that as far as pvp games go, Lineage 2 has an incredibly Epic feel. The mobs are better than most other mobs out there. My opinion true but I can't find any other game whose inhabitants are as demonic or Angelic as Lineage 2. Watch some of the ingame movies on this site. Go on.
Then come back and tell me the world is bland.
:cool:
edit: oh yeah, I agree... we need more customization. But again, I've read (and don't know if this is true) that the koreans don't really care too much about what we perceive as limited character options.
Oh, and I use the point-click over the alternate movement keys. it makes a lot of sense once you get used to it. It just "clicked" (pun intended :p ) for me. I remember my very first "steps". I clicked on a part of the building and I ran. That was actually when I knew that I might want to stay around. It seemed so simple.)
I don't get it...If someone dislikes the game so much, why bother wasting the time to register for the forums and make a thread about it? Definately free to do so, but if you weren't impressed with the game, why bother?
The best response I've heard go out to the WoW who invariably complain about the movement/grind/crossdressing elves/whatever associated with L2 is this
"If you don't like the game, go back to WoW. Giran is too crowded already." :)
I knew nothing about Lineage, so I went online and did a good amount of research about the game and it's system, etc. I was pretty amped as I began to DL the client. From what I could tell, the game was heavily PvP oriented (big-time PvP fan here), but with astounding class balanced, that focused more on player skill, than one class > another class. Gear was a factor, but not to the extent that it blew skill out of the water.
I'm sorry but this made me laugh. If you take teh time to read the forums here you'll see easily 60% of the posts are people complaining about balance issues and how gear is hard to come by and gives too many advantages to certain classes and not enough to others.
Sovrath's response pretty much covers how I think of the game as well.
You came into L2 expecting Battlefield with sword and spells .. what you found was something more like 3D Diablo with mass PvP (hey Lineage 1 was sorta like Diablo no?) its no wonder you're dissappointed.
You keep on saying the engine is dated but when i compare the graphics to Oblivion, which is a recent game with higher specs, L2 just looks stunning.
Sure most of the details are in texture maps and you don't get the cutting edge 3D engine, but when you look at an Elder scrolls character you just think "Ugly". I tried for half an hour to customise the face to look remotely normal and failed miserably ...
Anyway my point is that if you were looking for 1337 haxxor optimised to da max Doom 3 gfx and 7.1 surround sound, you'll be dissappointed. If you've got any sense of aesthetic creativity then L2's environments, character designs and music will appeal to you. Most likely you haven't taken the whole tour of aden just yet.
Here, (http://www.lineage2.com/pds/pds_movie.html) go to this page and download the ingame movies. There is a drop down box in the upper right where you can pick different movies for the different chronicles.
It might at least give you more of an appreciation for the art design. Or not, it's all good. ;)
You definately can't compare the movement of City of Heroes and Villians to this game. I play them both. When I switch back to L2, the movement "seems" geeze this is slow.
All characters in this game move slow when they first start out. Without the use of Haste (run) potions or the buff Wind Walk.
When in town, speak to "Newbie Helper" and select the option "give me support magic". If you are on your first that made it t level 6, the Newbie Helper will buff you with decent buffs based on your Class.
This game does not have any Keyboard commands that are much useful for you outside of opening windows. You have the skills bar, where you can use the mouse to click any key that does the same thing. Click and Hold and drop the mini picture on your Skills Bar.
My opinion:
1) engine -> the newbie zones do look kind of old, but with each new chronicle, new areas look much better (compare, dunno, the horrible dragon valley cliffs to the Wall of Argos ones (even tho I hate that area), same kind of scenery, but the new way is waaaay better.
2) as for controls, well, yeah, I agree with you, what can I say? After a while you get used to it and don't pay attention anymore, I guess. Sure, there's no way you can have a warsong-like CTF game with L2, because you either attack, or you either move, period. No matter the class, moving will cancel your attack, and you'll have to stop and order to attack again. Kitting in L2 sure isn't as fun as in WoW, I admit.
3) seems I'm the only one to think that, but imho PVP in L2 is a joke:
nomal pvp: the fact you lose so much XP, the karma that turns you into a lootable mob... well, you won't see much reds running around.
sieges: they ROCK (most of the time). But you need to belong to a big alliance.
Clan wars: it's just griefing, nukers ganking you whenever you get out of town, not much pvp fun there if you ask me (at least not for my dwarf)
Then there's the arena, if you like fighting around with no goal.
So PVP? Not much for casual players, besides the rare instance of a nuker two shooting you for no or idiotic reasons (oh sorry, a tagless dwarf, I thought you were a bot!), which is, of course, a great pvp experience :p
Lol, it sounds like I hate L2 when I read back my post :p Well I still love it, for some reason, I wonder which one tho, now o.o
Let's make a list to counterbalance:
there's the visuals/art whatever, first, it's a matter of taste, but at least the characters look awesome. Way not enough choices, but I've grown to love my dwarf just for how she looks. I must be a freak.
I'd say the musics, but WoW musics are awesome too, useless basing an argument on a draw.
The challenge: Well it's not WoW, were I didn't have much dfficulty to rise my hunter to lvl60. Sometimes the grind drives me crazy, but, on the other hand, you have a goal, in WoW, when you reach end game instances, well, you try to get the instance sets, a good weapon, but that's it, and it can come pretty fast ( I think I got lucky in that area tho, looting a dwarf hand canon almost right away and stuff, I confess). And then, it's just instances and battlegrounds. All in all, I think wow is more fun gameplay wise, but the fact it's too easy is not so good. Everybody's 60 nowadays, you don't feel special reaching 60 like you do reaching, I mean, not even 76, you only reach 70 in L2 and you're among the big guys, the lucky few, something like that...
Bah, I'll stop there, I type too much.
Voila, my opinion of a guy who likes both games (I see too many people trying wow for a week and going booooh! it's for kids, it's just an action game, etc, w/o knowing anything about the important parts of the game).
Oh yeah, I'll just add that: why do I play L2 and not WoW, finally, is because I have way more friends in L2 than in WoW, I came back quickly to wow a couple months ago, found a couple "friends", but they wouldn't play with me: "oh sorry, our clan doesn't accept outsiders in parties", so you have to resort to parties made in IF or Orgr, and since wow is more about skills and reflexes, you end up with awful parties that mess up, put blame on each other, etc etc...
I've played WoW also, but for me its not even comparable to l2. Wow is just ugly, cartoonish and ugly. Ok the world is kinda nice, but chars.. eeeewwww. Also armors, weapons - its like "look! i got new armor, it has nice green stripes now! Look! i got new armor again, whoa.. yellow stripes now!" and so on and on... It wasnt challenging, it was just too easy, boring and yeah.. for me - im not the one using keyboard on strafing, jumping running etc, I like to rely on my chars skills.
And indeed, for some reasons l2 grind is fine for me, its not boring, i can easily play 10+ hours in a row without feeling sleepy. And i HATE that in WoW i have to go to town really often, cause my freakin' inventory is full, luckily that will hardly happen in here.
Sooo.. that much about my WoW playing. But sure.. if you want nice, relaxing gameplay, without feeling this amazing glow in your stomach when you're in pvp.. getting an awesome drop.. sieging.. fighting with a raidboss.. changing to a new class.. getting your new gear, you may as well go back to WoW. But for me.. l2 is part of my life (and has been uhm... starting from beta i belive)
<3 this game.
"If you don't like the game, go back to WoW. Giran is too crowded already." :)
I don't think it's that he doesn't like the game, he's WANTS to like the game, just like I do. I'm still very little, and coming from eq2, this game just isn't moving very quickly for me at all. I do agree that the amount of detail put in to different sets of armor is AMAZING, but the movements *kills* me. The pathing is horrible, but i've just been grinding my teeth and ignoring it. I'm not sure I'm going to like pvp that much, and I'm not sure I'll ever have enough time to grind my way to the end game. I've been spending my free-month (before i start paying) to decide whether i WANT to pay to play this game. The jury is still out for me too.
3) seems I'm the only one to think that, but imho PVP in L2 is a joke:
nomal pvp: the fact you lose so much XP, the karma that turns you into a lootable mob... well, you won't see much reds running around.
I agree with this part. This really hinders PvP. Unless you play all the time and are constantly leveling.
Some people like the xp loss because they feel that it puts more on the line. I think it's a pain in the ***.
If what matters to you is the end game and you have little time to play, save yourself some frustration and stop now. This is not a game for easily getting to the higher levels as you have discovered.
But there is so much more to the game.
Recently I've been concentrating on leveling. I've been doing it for a number of reasons. I have been putting together a lot of information and I need to have some experience with the higher levels. But guess what I've found?
When you spend your time grinding and pushing hard to gain that next level, you miss so very much. I haven't had time for anything really, no writing, no exploring, no experimenting...just leveling.
When I play like this, I don't enjoy the game nearly as much. But that's me. For some people, the end game is what matters and they don't care about the things along the way.
If you let the desire for leveling fast and the envy of people who have top equipment get to you, you won't enjoy the game.
In WoW and EQ (and in fact most games) the end game is raids, raid bosses and instances. It's not like that here.
This game has so much if you choose to look. This game isn't for everyone, but god I love it!
I never did understand how some people dont like the movement system. From the very begining i thought it was actually superior to other games out. Maybe i'm just nuts, but i feel like i have more control over my charector in this game, then i do in most. I do agree about customization though, they need to add more options, other then those stupid masks and hair pins. Its a joke.
As for me...I also like the point and click movement in this game...doesn't feel clunky at all to me...and its alot better than mashing arrow keys to go one direction or another.. Rebinding keys? ack..the UI is really simple in Lineage and for me, simple is good especially when things start going wrong while fighting mobs or when PVP gets hot.. When I go back to the starter towns, the scenery is definately abit lower grade than the rest of Aden. As has been suggested earlier in this thread, check out the ingame movies to get a real idea of the scenery you can expect. Lineage2 is the only game for me... PVP drama, community, graphics, more self directed "quests", and for those of us that play legit...pride in your character...cause it wasn't easy getting there or equipping it...
Hey, I can totally see where you are coming from. Certain tastes for certain people. This is why I like Lineage 2..wrote a little comparison between WoW and L2 for me personally
Graphics
While lineage 2 may be a few years old, I like its more 'realistic' vs. 'cartoon' based graphics. Each race is humanoid and I like that. When things are turned up they can look pretty good.
PvP
Well, WoW has a very good system to this with consistent tweaking, new skills etc. I dont mind PvP in WoW but I still prefer Lineage 2 due to a few things. One, clan/alliances can war each other, castle sieges and PvP actually means something in Lineage 2. What do I mean? I mean there is actually something to lose in Lineage 2 if you get pk'd, pvp'd etc. You lose xp and other potential things such as gear if you are red.
In WoW you lose like...1% armor durability which doesnt mean anything. Its cheap to fix and never a problem. If you lose in pvp, you just come back to life quickly and nothing is for the worse except a touch of pride maybe. You cannot do anything in WoW to actually hurt the other player in any miniscule way.
PvE
This is the area where I like WoW a bit more.
Community
A lot of older people play lineage 2 it seems...more of a mature community especially in some of the alliances. Albeit there is a lot of babies/complainers/griefers no matter where you go.
Well, WoW has a very good system to this with consistent tweaking, new skills etc. I dont mind PvP in WoW but I still prefer Lineage 2 due to a few things. One, clan/alliances can war each other, castle sieges and PvP actually means something in Lineage 2. What do I mean? I mean there is actually something to lose in Lineage 2 if you get pk'd, pvp'd etc. You lose xp and other potential things such as gear if you are red.
In WoW you lose like...1% armor durability which doesnt mean anything. Its cheap to fix and never a problem. If you lose in pvp, you just come back to life quickly and nothing is for the worse except a touch of pride maybe. You cannot do anything in WoW to actually hurt the other player in any miniscule way.
This is what I don't like about the L2 system. But I think this is just a "me" issue.
I have absolutely no interest in "hurting" the other player. For me, PvP takes on greater meaning as PvP for it's own sake. Winning or Losing is the only thing I care about.
One of the reason's I like the guild wars system because it truly is about the match.
I also don't like the xp loss as I sometimes have limited play time. So if I die a few times that can be a week's worth of time.
But that is why this game is either for people who don't care about level or who play quite often and can easily replace their xp.
Well, for me its about sacrifice...before you go head on into a pvp fest you have to think of the risks and rewards from that encounter and not just pvp with reckless abandon just because you can.
When people are warring or if a clan is put on a pk list thats a pretty serious thing because it takes work to get rid of those pk's and get that xp back. I am the type of guy that doesnt see the point in an MMORPG that doesnt have risks...if I wanted to play no risk and have nothing matter I would just play on a public L2 server where money is easy to get and so are levels and pk'ing doesnt really matter..I lasted for 20 minutes on one of those servers before being bored.
It ended up being similar in WoW..you die, no real loss of anything meaningful. You kill someone in pvp there is nothing lost. You die anywhere in the game and it doesnt really matter. Money is pretty easy to get and there just isnt much challege yet it manages to be at least mildly entertaining.
Everywhere you go in L2 you are faced with risks. I am sure everyone can remember those tight situations where they came out ahead or all to often dropped that earring never to see it again lol. Anyway, thats just me.
Well, for me its about sacrifice...before you go head on into a pvp fest you have to think of the risks and rewards from that encounter and not just pvp with reckless abandon just because you can.
When people are warring or if a clan is put on a pk list thats a pretty serious thing because it takes work to get rid of those pk's and get that xp back. I am the type of guy that doesnt see the point in an MMORPG that doesnt have risks...if I wanted to play no risk and have nothing matter I would just play on a public L2 server where money is easy to get and so are levels and pk'ing doesnt really matter..I lasted for 20 minutes on one of those servers before being bored.
It ended up being similar in WoW..you die, no real loss of anything meaningful. You kill someone in pvp there is nothing lost. You die anywhere in the game and it doesnt really matter. Money is pretty easy to get and there just isnt much challege yet it manages to be at least mildly entertaining.
Everywhere you go in L2 you are faced with risks. I am sure everyone can remember those tight situations where they came out ahead or all to often dropped that earring never to see it again lol. Anyway, thats just me.
And that is why this is such an interesting game. It really makes players put it all on the line. I have great respect for that.
It's just not one of my favorite aspects of the game. But whatever, I'm a firm believer in the idea that if you dont' like something then you either accept the situation, work to change it, or move on.
Sorry my response isn't as long as everyone else.
Anyways I love L2 LOVE IT! Great Graphics & detail, exciting interaction with people. I played WOW for 3 days with my bro and hated it. Like everyone else said you can't compare the two they are completely different styles of play. I couldn't stand the square looking graphics in WOW compared to the smooth ones in L2. You also can't judge a book by it's cover. I really hope you give L2 another chance but the best advice "to some people it clicks, to others it doesn't" and I agree! :D
Wow. First just let me say, thanks a lot for all of the responses. I didn't expect to receive as many and the variety of them opinion wise was exactly what I needed to answer my questions. :)
Now, because I'm a very sad person, I'm gonna respond to a number of them -- some out of annoyance, and some out of respect -- ...and I have nothing better to do right now. >.>
Not sure what the character limit is on posts, so I'm gonna respond to each one in a different reply.
Wow. First just let me say, thanks a lot for all of the responses. I didn't expect to receive as many and the variety of them opinion wise was exactly what I needed to answer my questions. :)
Now, because I'm a very sad person, I'm gonna respond to a number of them -- some out of annoyance, and some out of respect -- ...and I have nothing better to do right now. >.>
Not sure what the character limit is on posts, so I'm gonna respond to each one in a different reply.
lol.. there is no limit on posts. And quite frankly, looking at how many posts I have, I say there should be!
The movement issues don't bother me much because frankly, movement doesn't matter much in L2. Anytime you're fighting, whether it be against monsters or other players, you're going to be out in the open smacking each other around. About the only instances in which movement does matter is in the case of archers and mages kiting their opponents, and in that case it's much more a matter of movement speed than being able to dart around your opponent. This doesn't even apply in sieges and other large scale PvP since there are so many targets you'll only be worried about taking others down rather than getting out of range yourself.
Personally it was the reverse for me in WoW, it seemed to me that everyone was running around and jumping around like idiots ignoring the laws of physics from time to time. And if anything darting around your opponents merely interfered with your or their targeting ability.
I suppose this does just boil down to a matter of gaming taste. Personally, that's what I love about WoW's combat. Having position and direction play such a huge part. I like being on the move as I fight, rather than planting myself and just clicking skills -- it feels more realistic to me. Many of the skills in WoW are highly dependent on range, position and movement -- and that is left in the hands of the player, rather than the computer.
Things such as deadzone kiting. As a rogue, I'll get my face smashed in by a warrior if I allow him to keep me out of stealth too long. But in order to drop combat to reenter stealth, I have to cease attacking, or being attacked for 5-6 seconds. A warrior has an ability to charge/close distance instantly and stun you, so just stunning them and running away isn't an option. That skill has an 8-20(I think) yard range. Melee range is 5- yards. So if I can manage to remain inside of 8 yards, but outside of 5 yards for 5-6 seconds, I can reenter stealth and reopen to maintain control of the fight. So learning to 'dance' around within that deadzone becomes very important. Of course, it's very difficult to do, given a 3 yard room for error, and the warrior obviously won't be standing still, but rather trying to either get within 5, or outside of 8. I love it. It's extremely challenging and just one small aspect of any given fight.
I know many MMO's tend to ignore player movement during combat and more or less just plant you at a certain range and let you begin the skill clicking, where player skill then becomes a matter of intellect alone, in regards to which skills you use and when. I suppose L2's PvP is more like chess, where as WoW's PvP is nearer to speed chess. Again, I suppose it is a matter of taste. I can appreciate both styles, but I find the speed chess to be far more engaging and exciting.
This game has a long, LONG, grind. I can't stress that enough, and coming from WoW you might not even be able to comprehend the level of difference between the two. Some people play this game for years without even coming close to achieving the highest level. Since gear can be enchanted almost limitlessly, even if you do reach that highest level you can keep enchanting your gear to make a more powerful character. In order to play this game you'll either need to have a lot of time available to grind, or be the kind of person that doesn't need to be the most powerful out there and can enjoy the game at other levels.
Aye, I wasn't aware the grind was quite this drastic. I've experienced the other end of the spectrum with SWG (Pre-NGE >.<) in which one could grind from 1-80 in about.. oh, 4 days? lol :/ I wasn't a fan of that either. I think WoW is just about right for my tastes. It can't be done in a week, but it also doesn't take a year or more. I suppose what I like about WoW's grind system, is the grind is fun (IMO) -- the quests, are generally interesting and/or enjoyable. There is an abundance of them, generally with various zones around the same lvl so you don't end up in thee same place for too long and can jump around a bit to keep things fresh. The abundance is also nice because it always offers up an alternative to the traditional stand in one area and kill the same mobs over and over for hours upon hours.
Additionally, even though I do enjoy the grind to 60 in WoW, I, like many people, believe the 'real game' doesn't even begin until you hit 60. That isn't to say there isn't a lot to enjoy along the way, but once you hit 60, it's like a whole new world in many ways. I like that. In many MMO's I've played, end-game was always lacking. In WoW, my grind isn't so much me nearing the end, as it is me nearing the beginning.
As far as this game taking years to reach any sort of end-game -- I can't say I really appreciate that. I'm glad some people do, but I never know how much time I'll have in this life to piss away on video games like this. From what I've gathered, and much like it is in WoW -- World PvP isn't so much an option for you as you grind your way towards 'the top'. Why on earth would I attempt to attack someone 30 lvls higher than me? I'll just suffer through the grind as fast as possible so that I can then play on even footing. From the sound of it, getting to that even footing takes years and then, what am I left with as I grind in terms of PvP?
I just don't understand why any grind has to be -that- excessive. I'm not saying shoot you to the top in 4 days -- but come on, years of dedicated playing? I suppose for some that is more enjoyable -- the greater the time-sink the better -- but not me.
The reasons I personally stick around this game are three-fold. First, I enjoy the community here. Both the community in game and here on the forums are something you won't find elsewhere. Granted the community I'm speaking of is much more difficult to find in game, as it usually involves joining a good Clan, but it is out there.
Aye, I'll definately give you that. Most video game players would not have the time nor patience to put up with a game like this, and as such, i'm sure you end up with a far more mature gaming community and for that, I envy you.
The second is the PvP aspect of the game. There are balancing issues as there are in any game, but overall L2 provides a very fun and open ended PvP system. Additionally I like the fact that at any time for any reason I can be attacked. I can also put an arrow through someone's face anywhere except in town if I feel they deserve it.
Aye, from what I've read about the way one progresses through classes, the PvP sounds like it has a ton of potential/balance.
As for being able to attack anyone at any time -- WoW also offers this, but the thing they did, which I think L2 should consider, is offering different server types. On a PvP server, in any contested area (Most of the world) you are flagged as attackable. On a PvE server, this is not the case and the circumstances in which you become flagged are far easier to manage should you just wish to grind without worrying about some corpse camper coming along to grief you. I myself, orginally rolled on a PvE server, but up towards around lvl 50, I started flagging myself and hoping to be attacked, lol. Needless to say, I rerolled on a PvP server and am much happier. Nothing like getting ganked by 8+ lvl 60's and then /spit on. :)
The last thing that keeps me around is the actual grind itself. It's not particularly difficult or even all that different from other games, but for me it's the only game in which I can grind for hours upon hours without wanting to slam my head against a desk. Part of this is due to the fact that I can solo to max level, another factor is that the grind is sometimes interupted by someone who wants me dead. Since there is a chance of losing equipment on death as well, the grind is made a little more interesting to me by the fact that I need to be careful and make sure some small mistake doesn't get me killed.
I suppose this is where you and I differ the most. From what I can tell, this grind, would in fact have me slamming my head into the desk constantly. I can only enjoy the grind or pre-end-game for so long before I do begin to envy those who are already there. I don't need it immediately, but I would like to have end-game in sight within, at the very least, half a year of my life.
As for the PvP aspect of the grind, yes, that makes it far more enjoyable. Questing/grinding in WoW on a PvP server is always a huge risk -- I've dubbed it the 'looking over your shoulder grind'. Now, as for losing exp/gear on death. I can't say I like that. I'm no carebear, but the fact that some sad person IRL can come along and kill me, with my having NO CHANCE toe scape and/or survive, offers up to much opportunity to grief. I don't need to lose exp/gear in order to NOT want to die.
The time it takes me to keep running back to my corpse, or going into town to repair my gear, or having to relocate my grind due to campers, is just as valuable as the time it would take me to reaquire my lost gear/exp. The WoW penalties are to a lesser extent, but still very much there, and even without those, I STILL would not want to die. I would still do everything I coudl to avoid death -- if for nothing else but my pride. I really don't think it's necessary to punish the player so harshly for something they have no control over (Griefers). But to each his own.
L2 is definitely not the game for everyone, it's designed to appeal to a niche group of gamers. There are plenty of things to enjoy about it, and you'll find pretty much every player enjoys a different aspect of the game. I'd suggest sticking around for a while and experimenting to see if you fit within that group.
Aye, it definately was designed to appeal to a smaller group of players, and to be honest, I can really dig on that and it's likely what makes it appealing to me, despite all the qualms I have with it. But, it just really isn't something I can invest myself in, when I have other options available that offer me less frustration and more fun. Regardless, I am glad it exists and is there for those that prefer it.
Movement aspect is not a problem. Look at it from strategy games point of view. You click your way around, you select targets with mouse or shortcuts (macro system works well for targetting your favorite enemies).
Attacks/spells automatically move you to desired range. It's simple, but effective.
Aye, this was a good way of describing it. And again I say it feels more like a 3D RTS than the MMO's I'm used to nowadays. It is very effective I suppose, but indeed -very- simple and I think that may be what frustrates me. The computer does most of the work for me and I want to do it myself -- I feel a bit bound down by the coding. Freedom!
My only hotkey options were the F Keys or 1-0, which, being an arrow/numpad user, is very frustrating.
i would like to tell you first that there are 10 hotbars, no one really gets by using just one. to access them, use alt+F#. also, use alt+r and play around with macros a bit, they greatly simplify some things, and are very easy to write (do a search on the forums, im sure someone has written a 5-page manual). this is sort of like grouping some actions together in one button. this game has the sharpest learning curve of any other game i know on the market, you are encouraged to explore your UI, as well as the world around you. granted, that doesnt appeal to eveyone.
Heh, just to clarify -- I wasn't saying anything about the amount of hotbars. :P What I was saying is, it frustrates me that I can rebind the hotkeys for each bar to my desired set up, which is numpad. I'm used to setting things up so my hand doesn't have to move from it's pivot point at all in order to do anything -- but, I'm used to games in which movement and player response time is very important, which doesn't seem to be -as much- of an issue here, which Is why I suppose most don't have any issue with it.
The thing is, I don't think you "get it". This is not to say that the game "should" be to your liking, but you are comparing it to a game that was made for western sensibilites.
Apparently, the Koreans prefer and expect (at least when the game was made) the point and click interface. Even when they introduced the SOGA content in EQII they added "point and click".
The whole idea behind the interface is simplicity. I do have some qualms such as the quest journal or the boxes where the quest dialogues are shown (very small) but everything is made to be streamlined.
Aye, I 'get it' now. :P Though what I'm used to, as far as 'western sensibilities' go, is just having more control/input into my UI/Controls. I understand they are going for simple -- but all games attempt to have the 'default' set-up be as simple as possible, without removing the option for each gamer to decide for themselves what 'simple' really is to them.
I'm such a fan of Oriental culture too -- but I could just slap the Koreans for this >.< lol
As far as the world is concerned, it really is beautiful. I have to say that there are some spots that are incredible. The Light walls in Valley of the saints, the Giants Cave, The majesty of the Tower of Insolence or the Eloquent shape of the Ivory tower.
There is so much of the world to see.
But again... you have to "get it".
Alright, enough with the 'get it' business, I'm not mentally defunct, nor is this quantum physics :P I never said the world was ugly, I even said it was 'attractive' and it is. From what I understand now based on some responses, is that the starter areas haven't been updated as much as the world at large. I don't doubt that some areas are breathtaking and personally, graphics isn't so much what I judge digital beauty on. Design is the biggest factor, and there is no denying that the Koreans have some amazing designers. The armor and weapons look amazing and I'm sure many areas of the world are just as brilliant.
This is a pvp game. It is built around the idea that you grind grind grind and Pvp. When you die you lose xp so you need to keep "feeding the beast".
The pvp can be incredible. Very very fast paced, the best fighting animations that I've seen. The armor and weapons are exquisitley detailed.
The feel of the world is majestic and Epic.
it can't be compared to WoW.
WoW is a game with seemingly fun quests, a whimsical world for people who are not too hardcore.
What I'm wondering is, how often is PvP an option as you grind? Are you coming into contact with many people of the same lvl, or often encountering people who roll you? I imagine it is a bit of both, but from what I gather, not a lot of newbies about, apart from the few brave enough to roll an alt. Given the scope of the grind, it seems most of the server pop will be well above what I would encounter for many months, perhaps a year or more.
Just curious though, what about my really admiring the WoW World makes me any less of a 'hardcore' gamer? It seems a lot of opinions here are that, if you are not willing to piss away YEARS of your life on the grind, then you aren't 'hardcore'. :/
In this game you have to love the grind, have to love pvp and have to have the drive to grind your way to the top.
No matter what people say, this game is very very hard to level in. Especially if you only have a few hours to play.
Now see, I love PvP, and that love gives me the drive to grind to the top. But I simply can't love a grind, in which it takes years to reach that top. It's just excessive and unecessary IMO. I'm not saying design all MMO's around casual gaming, these games BY design are huge time-sinks -- but one also shouldn't eliminate the possiblity for a casual gamer to enjoy themselves.
On the other hand, there are so many MMO options out there, that I can't really gripe when one of them really does appeal to a 'niche' (As someone said earlier) of gamers, rather than a wider audience. So, game on.
Why do I come back?Well, besides the Art design, the sieges can be incredible.
I recall running along one of Gludio's walls, looking down, and seeing a mass of pvp going on down below as two siege Golems slowly made their way to the wall. It seriously reminded me of "The Lord of the Rings" (only not so many people ;) )
Aye, I think that's awesome and again, the PvP still sounds appealing to me, apart from my gripes with control and complexity. Wow is definately lacking in the World PvP aspect -- but in their defence, they sort of threw together the honor system to bide the hardcore PvPers while they took care of other issues. A PvP revamp is coming and World Objectives (Similiar to caste sieges) are on the horizon, thank god. >.<
However, this game is not for everyone. It either clicks with you or it doesn't.
And again, as far as the interface. It isn't made for us. It is made for a different sensibility. This is not to say that we won't see more western interface elements from these types of games, but remember, this game is 2 years old. They probably started designing it several years earlier.
Though I don't like certain things about the game I have to say, that as far as pvp games go, Lineage 2 has an incredibly Epic feel. The mobs are better than most other mobs out there. My opinion true but I can't find any other game whose inhabitants are as demonic or Angelic as Lineage 2. Watch some of the ingame movies on this site. Go on.
Then come back and tell me the world is bland.
:cool:
Haha, ok, not bland. And yeah, very demonic/angelic. Very Anime. Which I love. But I also love WoW's own unique spin on the fantasy realm -- and the AI is second to none IMO (Some of those mobs do things that make many players seem like 'noobs'). But yes, L2 has a fun design, which is very appealing.
edit: oh yeah, I agree... we need more customization. But again, I've read (and don't know if this is true) that the koreans don't really care too much about what we perceive as limited character options.
Oh, and I use the point-click over the alternate movement keys. it makes a lot of sense once you get used to it. It just "clicked" (pun intended :p ) for me. I remember my very first "steps". I clicked on a part of the building and I ran. That was actually when I knew that I might want to stay around. It seemed so simple.)
Haha. I see that now. It is very simple, but it doesn't quite allow for the precise movement I'm used ot. In an RTS with an overhead view, click to move makes sense, since you can be precise, but with a 3D environment, you simply can't get -as- precise without having more control over your movement. And again, I hate that most objects have invisible extensions. This doesn't effect click to move, but when trying to run through a door by turning and moving forward (no clicking) it can take about 6 seconds just to maneuver through >.< BUT, I now see that movement isn't a big issue in PvP since the computer does most of th ework for you in terms of distance and such. I was just mislead by one of the things i read on the site about 'ducking behidn cover' and other such thing. Made me imagine a more FPS-like movement set-up. Click to move does in fact seem like the best set up for this game, it just isn't what I dig on.
I don't get it...If someone dislikes the game so much, why bother wasting the time to register for the forums and make a thread about it? Definately free to do so, but if you weren't impressed with the game, why bother?
The best response I've heard go out to the WoW who invariably complain about the movement/grind/crossdressing elves/whatever associated with L2 is this
"If you don't like the game, go back to WoW. Giran is too crowded already." :)
Haha, way to deduct points from the community aspect of L2. :P I was -trying- to understand and appreciate this game, and THAT is why I took the time to post. I didn't come here to rain on anyone's parade. I was just 'dissapointed' and surprised, as I said.
And yes, I will be going back to WoW. So don't fret, my pet.
I knew nothing about Lineage, so I went online and did a good amount of research about the game and it's system, etc. I was pretty amped as I began to DL the client. From what I could tell, the game was heavily PvP oriented (big-time PvP fan here), but with astounding class balanced, that focused more on player skill, than one class > another class. Gear was a factor, but not to the extent that it blew skill out of the water.
I'm sorry but this made me laugh. If you take teh time to read the forums here you'll see easily 60% of the posts are people complaining about balance issues and how gear is hard to come by and gives too many advantages to certain classes and not enough to others.
Sovrath's response pretty much covers how I think of the game as well.
Aye, I'm seeing more that gear is a bit of an issue here as well. That's a shame. So many good games go down the hole because gear becomes such a factor. WoW is definately going that way -- I hope you guys are able to avoid it.
You came into L2 expecting Battlefield with sword and spells .. what you found was something more like 3D Diablo with mass PvP (hey Lineage 1 was sorta like Diablo no?) its no wonder you're dissappointed.
You keep on saying the engine is dated but when i compare the graphics to Oblivion, which is a recent game with higher specs, L2 just looks stunning.
Sure most of the details are in texture maps and you don't get the cutting edge 3D engine, but when you look at an Elder scrolls character you just think "Ugly". I tried for half an hour to customise the face to look remotely normal and failed miserably ...
Aye. When I say dated, I don't mean ugly. As you said, it's not cutting edge 3D like most MMO's are shooting for now, and that's what I mean by dated. For what it is, it is very attractive.
Anyway my point is that if you were looking for 1337 haxxor optimised to da max Doom 3 gfx and 7.1 surround sound, you'll be dissappointed. If you've got any sense of aesthetic creativity then L2's environments, character designs and music will appeal to you. Most likely you haven't taken the whole tour of aden just yet.
-.- No, I don't come into an MMO looking for 'l33t' anything. Again, the design of the game IS very appealing -- I was just -surprised- at the 'dated' feel of it, compared ot the other MMO's on the market.
What I'm wondering is, how often is PvP an option as you grind? Are you coming into contact with many people of the same lvl, or often encountering people who roll you? I imagine it is a bit of both, but from what I gather, not a lot of newbies about, apart from the few brave enough to roll an alt. Given the scope of the grind, it seems most of the server pop will be well above what I would encounter for many months, perhaps a year or more.
Just curious though, what about my really admiring the WoW World makes me any less of a 'hardcore' gamer? It seems a lot of opinions here are that, if you are not willing to piss away YEARS of your life on the grind, then you aren't 'hardcore'. :/
Nice points you make.
For the PvP you can run into any enemy at anytime. Some might be higher (they might be in a party looking for you so will stack the deck, so to speak) and sometimes you will just have two or three groups desire the same hunting spot.
As far as the WoW world, there is much to like in that game. I personally don't like the graphics but I feel that they did a very good job with everything in it. I also tend to Enjoy the WoW quests.
Personally, it's apples to oranges.
When I say "hardcore" it really is because I know of no other term to use. How would you describe players who spend all the time we do in order to make lvls or money.
Maybe "obsessive". :p
Sorry about the "get it" remarks. It wasn't to imply that you were dense but more to stress that the game either works for you or it doesn't. I know of plenty of people who have left after a week in absolute frustration.
Good luck in whatever you do. Always good to have a fresh voice on the boards.
2) as for controls, well, yeah, I agree with you, what can I say? After a while you get used to it and don't pay attention anymore, I guess. Sure, there's no way you can have a warsong-like CTF game with L2, because you either attack, or you either move, period. No matter the class, moving will cancel your attack, and you'll have to stop and order to attack again. Kitting in L2 sure isn't as fun as in WoW, I admit.
Aye, that's all I'm saying really. I've come to expect, in the current age of MMO's, to have a lot more freedom and importance be placed in movement. Skills on the run. I was just suprised to see the 'plant and fight' design of old.
3) seems I'm the only one to think that, but imho PVP in L2 is a joke:
nomal pvp: the fact you lose so much XP, the karma that turns you into a lootable mob... well, you won't see much reds running around.
sieges: they ROCK (most of the time). But you need to belong to a big alliance.
Clan wars: it's just griefing, nukers ganking you whenever you get out of town, not much pvp fun there if you ask me (at least not for my dwarf)
Then there's the arena, if you like fighting around with no goal.
So PVP? Not much for casual players, besides the rare instance of a nuker two shooting you for no or idiotic reasons (oh sorry, a tagless dwarf, I thought you were a bot!), which is, of course, a great pvp experience :p
Yeah, and this is the case with most MMO's. World PvP isn't really much of an option until you get closer to end-game lvls. That isn't tos ay that it doesn't happen as you grind, but it's far less likely and far less enjoyable when you are on a lower rung of the ladder, at the mercy of those higher than you. And I can handle that -- everytime I'm ganked in WoW by some bored 60, I just mark them down on my list and keep grinding, knowing that in the near future, I won't be such an easy target and can extract my 'revenge'. But in this game, given the scope of the grind, that could be a VERY long time and I just can't enjoy that.
Lol, it sounds like I hate L2 when I read back my post :p Well I still love it, for some reason, I wonder which one tho, now o.o
Let's make a list to counterbalance:
there's the visuals/art whatever, first, it's a matter of taste, but at least the characters look awesome. Way not enough choices, but I've grown to love my dwarf just for how she looks. I must be a freak.
I'd say the musics, but WoW musics are awesome too, useless basing an argument on a draw.
The challenge: Well it's not WoW, were I didn't have much dfficulty to rise my hunter to lvl60. Sometimes the grind drives me crazy, but, on the other hand, you have a goal, in WoW, when you reach end game instances, well, you try to get the instance sets, a good weapon, but that's it, and it can come pretty fast ( I think I got lucky in that area tho, looting a dwarf hand canon almost right away and stuff, I confess). And then, it's just instances and battlegrounds. All in all, I think wow is more fun gameplay wise, but the fact it's too easy is not so good. Everybody's 60 nowadays, you don't feel special reaching 60 like you do reaching, I mean, not even 76, you only reach 70 in L2 and you're among the big guys, the lucky few, something like that...
I can understand what you're saying here. Comparing these two games, yeah, WoW is a cake walk to reach end-game compared to this. But, compared to say SWG, WOW is quite a devotion of time and consistence to get to end-game, let alone get geared up end-game. There is definately a wide spectrum that MMO players can choose from in terms of time sinks. Personally, I feel quite accomplished at lvl 60, with tier 2 gear, or lvl 60, with rank 14. It does take a lot of time and cooperation between players to run a 40 man dungeon successfully and even then, you have to do it over and over to earn you DKP and then, hope your piece drops and you have more DKP than the other person who wants that piece.
WoW is just right for me in terms of time-sink. It takes a lot of time and effort to get to end-game success, but not TOO much time. And as for being bored once you get geared up at 60 -- personally, I want to get there as fast as possible sO I can just piss away my days on PvP. I -really- enjoy PvP in that game, so I'll be quite pleased when I no longer have to participate in the PvE game (Outside of helping guildies and such) and can just focus on the PvP game. BUT, if you don't like PvP, I can see WoW getting boring fast once you hit 60 and get geared up. Though, Blizz is a BIG fan of PvE and continues to push out more and more PvE content for the end-game -- really amazing content too. Unfortunately, they keep pushing out more uber PvE gaer that further imabalances my beloved PvP. >.<
Anyway, I feel plenty accomplished with the 6 month time-sink, and can't afford the 3 year time-sink, but if you can, I can see why you would prefer L2 over WoW (Apart from the gameplay aspects).
Bah, I'll stop there, I type too much.
Voila, my opinion of a guy who likes both games (I see too many people trying wow for a week and going booooh! it's for kids, it's just an action game, etc, w/o knowing anything about the important parts of the game).
Oh yeah, I'll just add that: why do I play L2 and not WoW, finally, is because I have way more friends in L2 than in WoW, I came back quickly to wow a couple months ago, found a couple "friends", but they wouldn't play with me: "oh sorry, our clan doesn't accept outsiders in parties", so you have to resort to parties made in IF or Orgr, and since wow is more about skills and reflexes, you end up with awful parties that mess up, put blame on each other, etc etc...
Aye, thanks a lot for your response, it's great to finally get one from someone who really enjoys both games for different reasons.
I've played WoW also, but for me its not even comparable to l2. Wow is just ugly, cartoonish and ugly. Ok the world is kinda nice, but chars.. eeeewwww. Also armors, weapons - its like "look! i got new armor, it has nice green stripes now! Look! i got new armor again, whoa.. yellow stripes now!" and so on and on...
Eh... not really sure how you can find WoW to be 'ugly'. I personally find it to be breathtaking. The world is so very detailed. You can't throw a rock without hitting some unique little area to explore and enjoy. Coming out of Searing Gorge into Eleywnn Forrest on a Gryffin as a domino effect of waterfalls cascade blow you and the sun sets in the distance -- I dunno, man, but I think that game's World is AMAZING.
The characters are awesome too IMO. I see a lot of people call it 'cartoony' and yes, it has a cartoonISH design quality to it, but those toons -feel- so very lifelike to me. In terms of an avatar being realistic or not, I don't just look at the color pallete used -- but rather the animations and details. Those characters -really- feel alive -- such attitude. And, I mean come on, to be fair, the L2 characters aren't 'cartoony' to you? They look like they came right out of an Anime to me and last I checked, Anime was... well, animated. :P
As for armor. I agree, for the MOST part, WoW's armor and weapons are lacking in design. The really cool looking stuff doesn't start showing up until closer to end-game. And L2's armor/weapons design definately trumps WoW in that respect -- BUT, you can't tell me full Tier 2 Armor and rank 14 weapons don't look awesome. :/
It wasnt challenging, it was just too easy, boring and yeah.. for me - im not the one using keyboard on strafing, jumping running etc, I like to rely on my chars skills.
Eh... not challenging? I'm wondering how far into the game you got. The newbie areas are in fact designed to be easy so you get accustomed to the gameplay -- but once you get going, it gets infinately more difficult. And I'm not even talking about end-game PvE. I'm talking lvl 15ish PvE. Mobs that will spin away from you to perform a heal, knowing it's less likely you can interupt if you aren't fast enough to position yourself for that interupt. Or mobs near death calling out for help, or stunning and fleeing. There are a plethora of AI choices that make my jaw drops at just how intelligent a frickin' computer can be.
I won't even go into end-game PvE and how 40 people take months to learn how to beat any given raid boss and even then, often wipe.
As for not liking to move, strafe, etc, that's fine. It's a matter of preference. I prefer skills on the run and position/movement playing such a big role in my combat. I like to rely on player in combination with char skill, with a slight emphasis on player skill. To each his own.
And indeed, for some reasons l2 grind is fine for me, its not boring, i can easily play 10+ hours in a row without feeling sleepy. And i HATE that in WoW i have to go to town really often, cause my freakin' inventory is full, luckily that will hardly happen in here.
I'm not sure exactly what keeps in engaging for you, but I'll assume it's something. As for going to town often in WoW? Not sure why you hate it. The towns are so well designed that it's always a treat for me -- not to mention the community aspect of it. It can get lonely out int he wilderness, and so it's nice to come back to town and people watch for a bit before heading out again. Not to mention the aspect of auction houses and battlegrounds. But again, to each his own.
Sooo.. that much about my WoW playing. But sure.. if you want nice, relaxing gameplay, without feeling this amazing glow in your stomach when you're in pvp.. getting an awesome drop.. sieging.. fighting with a raidboss.. changing to a new class.. getting your new gear, you may as well go back to WoW. But for me.. l2 is part of my life (and has been uhm... starting from beta i belive)
<3 this game.
Eh... I'm really getting the sense that you tried WoW for a few minutes, without investigating much further into it. Awesome drops? Stomach churning PvP? Radibosses? Yeah, WoW has plenty of that. Sieging? Battlegrounds make up for that while they hash out a new World PvP system. Changing to a new class? To be fair, it's a new title, but other than that, you are simply learning more skills, closely in line with the previous set up.
Hey, I can totally see where you are coming from. Certain tastes for certain people. This is why I like Lineage 2..wrote a little comparison between WoW and L2 for me personally
Graphics
While lineage 2 may be a few years old, I like its more 'realistic' vs. 'cartoon' based graphics. Each race is humanoid and I like that. When things are turned up they can look pretty good.
See, it's strange, but I don't see WoW as cartoony. I see it as a specfic design choice, that is a strange combo of realism and abstract cartoony. I also enjoy L2's design choices, but personally, I honestly get more of a contrived cartoony feel from L2 than I do from WoW. I just can't shake the Anime feeling.
PvP
Well, WoW has a very good system to this with consistent tweaking, new skills etc. I dont mind PvP in WoW but I still prefer Lineage 2 due to a few things. One, clan/alliances can war each other, castle sieges and PvP actually means something in Lineage 2. What do I mean? I mean there is actually something to lose in Lineage 2 if you get pk'd, pvp'd etc. You lose xp and other potential things such as gear if you are red.
In WoW you lose like...1% armor durability which doesnt mean anything. Its cheap to fix and never a problem. If you lose in pvp, you just come back to life quickly and nothing is for the worse except a touch of pride maybe. You cannot do anything in WoW to actually hurt the other player in any miniscule way.
We definately differ a bit in opinion here. Though I completely agree that WoW is lacking in World PvP -purpose- (Though again, that is on the horizon, thankfully).
But as for the losing exp/gear upon death thing, well, if you could just scroll up a few responses back where I gave my opinion on that. I will say though, it's 5% if I'm not mistaken, and 25% if you spirit rez (Which you often will, when you are coprse camped), and in better gear, this gets VERY expensive, trust me. It's less of a factor in the lower lvls, but at 60, in full tier 2, you are looking at an ugly repair bill when you die. No one 'doesn't mind' dying at that point. As for rezzing quickly? Eh.. not so much. You'll often find the nearest GY is a 5 minute run away. 5 minutes may not seem like much to some people, but I personally don't like wasting 5 minutes of my play time running back to my ocprse, only to be slaughtered again. :/
Simply getting the kill in PvP or 'outskilling' the other player, is all I need in order to feel good about that kill. I don't need to take their gear/exp and thus their time -- that's where it begins to impose on RL in a way, and take away from the 'for fun' aspect of a video game. Pride is more than enough to throw some people over the edge, lol.
PvE
This is the area where I like WoW a bit more.
Aye, WoW's PvE is pretty stunning -- too bad it's become such a focus that PvP suffers for it. >.<
Community
A lot of older people play lineage 2 it seems...more of a mature community especially in some of the alliances. Albeit there is a lot of babies/complainers/griefers no matter where you go.
Totally agree. The greater portion of WoW's community makes me want to stab myself in the face. I definately envy the Community here in L2.
What I'm wondering is, how often is PvP an option as you grind? Are you coming into contact with many people of the same lvl, or often encountering people who roll you? I imagine it is a bit of both, but from what I gather, not a lot of newbies about, apart from the few brave enough to roll an alt. Given the scope of the grind, it seems most of the server pop will be well above what I would encounter for many months, perhaps a year or more.
Just curious though, what about my really admiring the WoW World makes me any less of a 'hardcore' gamer? It seems a lot of opinions here are that, if you are not willing to piss away YEARS of your life on the grind, then you aren't 'hardcore'. :/
Nice points you make.
For the PvP you can run into any enemy at anytime. Some might be higher (they might be in a party looking for you so will stack the deck, so to speak) and sometimes you will just have two or three groups desire the same hunting spot.
As far as the WoW world, there is much to like in that game. I personally don't like the graphics but I feel that they did a very good job with everything in it. I also tend to Enjoy the WoW quests.
Personally, it's apples to oranges.
When I say "hardcore" it really is because I know of no other term to use. How would you describe players who spend all the time we do in order to make lvls or money.
Maybe "obsessive". :p
Sorry about the "get it" remarks. It wasn't to imply that you were dense but more to stress that the game either works for you or it doesn't. I know of plenty of people who have left after a week in absolute frustration.
Good luck in whatever you do. Always good to have a fresh voice on the boards.
Haha. 'Obsessive' is a good way to put it. Not that I wouldn't say I'm obsessive about WoW, and certainly others are even more so. I suppose there are degrees to everything really -- but yeah, L2 players are pretty 'hardcore'. lol :P
And no worries about the 'get it' remarks -- I do 'get it', and I even appreciate it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. :P
I really wish I could get into this game, because there is a lot I like about it, but the things I don't like about it are unfortunately too much for me to deal with. :(
Good luck to you as well. Always happy to be a fresh voice on the intraweb. :)
I played WoW. Just for perspective I was a level 60 Night Elf Priest in the top raiding guild on my server. I had Tier 3 armor, so that should tell you what we fought.
You CANNOT attack anyone at anytime on any of the WoW servers. On the PvP servers you can only attack the other realm, never your own except in duels and those are consentual.
Reaching the end game in wow doesn't take a week, but if you are good it takes no more than a month tops and usually less than that.
The end game is nothing but running instance after instance in 20 or 40 man raids then grinding for faction or cash to pay for repairs. To me it was incredibly boring.
Now different people have different tastes. I am here because here is better in my eyes.
I played WoW. Just for perspective I was a level 60 Night Elf Priest in the top raiding guild on my server. I had Tier 3 armor, so that should tell you what we fought.
You CANNOT attack anyone at anytime on any of the WoW servers. On the PvP servers you can only attack the other realm, never your own except in duels and those are consentual.
Reaching the end game in wow doesn't take a week, but if you are good it takes no more than a month tops and usually less than that.
The end game is nothing but running instance after instance in 20 or 40 man raids then grinding for faction or cash to pay for repairs. To me it was incredibly boring.
Now different people have different tastes. I am here because here is better in my eyes.
True, you can't attack members of your own 'side' -- and to be honest, I would enjoy that, though on the other hand, it would make lvling on a PvP server all the more chaotic. Not sure the general WoW community is mature enough to have that option open.
Hitting 60 in a month requires one of a few things. MANY hours a day of playtime, in addition to a nice understanding of how to grind most effectively (This means little to no BGing, World PvPing, gear grinding, etc -- this would be a straight, I'm grinding as fast as I can sort of deal). OR, having a certain class makeup -- IE, you're a priest or mage, rolling with another priest or mage and you just AOE grind like hotcakes.
I'm not saying the grind there is extremely long by any means, but it isn't going to happen in a snap for any new player either -- especially if they want to enjoy their grind, rather than just... well, grind.
If that's all you did in end-game, I don't imagine it wouldn't be boring. Personally, once I hit 60, I'll be raiding and PvPing. Once I no longer need to raid, I'll likely stop, short of helping others in the guild get their gear. At that point, it's all PvP for me. Short of just playing around in the faire, or snowball fights, or a fishing trip, or race, or any other 'just for fun' time-sink. PvP alone, inside BG's and in the world, will keep me amused for months, without a doubt. To be honest, I doubt I'll ever truely tire of the PvP, especially when they incorporate cross-server BG que's and World Objectives -- but even the PvP as is, will keep me amused for a VERY long time.
Now, if I didn't care about PvP, yeah, my enjoyment with WoW for the most part, would come to an end a month or so following my final piece of uber gear. But then, I don't want any one game to be so all encompassing that it's all I play for years on end. I'll play WoW, I'll enjoy it as long as I can, then I'll move on.
Anyway, what about L2 end-game is there that keeps it going for so long? That isn't sarcastic, or a stab at you or the game, I'm honestly interested in what L2 does end-game wise that other games aren't or haven't done.
If you have any interest in knowing why I personally love the game and what it holds for me...feel free to wade through my writings of "A Day in the Life". Link is in my sig.
True, you can't attack members of your own 'side' -- and to be honest, I would enjoy that, though on the other hand, it would make lvling on a PvP server all the more chaotic.
And that is exactly what L2 is about. Chaotic Chronicles and all. As you can hit anyone at anytime, no matter what their lvl (well, not in the cities).
If you have any interest in knowing why I personally love the game and what it holds for me...feel free to wade through my writings of "A Day in the Life". Link is in my sig.
I'll bet you didn't expect me to, but I did in fact go and begin reading it. :)
You have a splendid and extremely entertaining writing style; it was a lot of fun to read. Admitedly, I'm only on page 6 thus far, but honestly, those posts have helped to bring my opinion of this game around full circle. Well, those posts, and yet another attempt at playing.
I really can see the appeal of this game now, and it's very cool. It is definately it's own blend of MMO obsession and very much so a 'niche' game, even in the realm of MMORPG's.
Honestly, if I wasn't having so much fun in WoW, and had some sort of certainty that I could actually play L2 for at least a couple of years without some life-atlering event/computer explosion interferring, I'm pretty sure I would.
There is still a lot about L2 that I don't care for, and I still stand by the majority of the things I've said in this topic -- but I now see what you vets find so appealing about this game, and it truely is unique in many ways.
Perhaps some day I'll find the time to take a real crack at it -- for now, it's back to Azeroth with me. :)
I know this would be the obvious place to go for information about Lineage II, and get some real feedback.
But..there is a bit but here. If you want to get the real feedback how players like Lineage II. You should visit this site, http://www.l2guru.com/forum/
browse around, and see what you can find, or post a question.
Allthough what I say next is subjective, I feel this is the generall attitude from longterm players of lineage II.
For a game that promotes pvp by this scale, it has some big issues around it, more than what could be overlooked by a nice design and good layout.
The graphics of this game is next to none (that is if you like the style of it), it has some rich eye candy wherever you go. Even tho if other mmorpg games have better engines, there are few that produces as rich an image as L2. This is kind of things you forget about after 2+ years of playing, sadly.
Botters and farmers are probably expressions you are familiar with, as they exist in (I think) all mmorpg, but lineage...is flooded, wel I'm sure you can find something about that on l2blah.
I didnt think much about it when I started, but costumer support is something thats highly attractive and most important in mmorpgs. Im sure you can find something about that as wel.
hey, I was one of the first ones :p Not my fault if a horde of other players turned that class into...hermm... you know.
Also had (well, have, maybe I'll go back to wow some day, if I need a break from the grinding -weeeeh, I reached 60 today, one more and Agrade :p ) a warlock, btw. Loved my hunter coz it was great fun, and loved my lock too for her different gameplay and, well, I think it's the best summoner class I've ever played in any mmorpg, bliz did a brilliant job on them.
L2 is a hardcore game, and the grind to me is perfect. Its not even one of those give it try kind of game. If you dont like it from the start you never will. I tried WOW I lasted all of 30 min to an hr. I quit and will never go back. I would rather play my ps2 than ever go to game again. Its just how things are sometimes. good luck
Speaking as someone who played WoW, it has its good sides and bad sides, but I simply couldn't keep playing it.
1-59 is great. The quests keep you going with a purpose, and I never really went out to level, levelling just happened on its own while I did other things. The ability to solo as any class is nice, especially for someone like me that likes to play support classes but who can't always find a group. Tradeskills so easily available to all characters was nice to see.
There are downsides, of course. The soloability of every class made grouping highly discouraged outside of instances, which themselves are poor sources of exp. Indeed, I tried playing a Priest, but it felt like I was playing a nuker instead of support, simply because he practically never had anyone to group with. Tradeskills are easily accessed in the game, but largely useless and a waste of time as they offer very little that's useful, and what they do offer is usually far more difficult to create than is logical for an item of that power. The grind was simply too easy, my first character (a Warlock) hit 60 in less than a couple of months, and that was while not even trying and being very new to the game.
It seems that all of the imagination and creativity that went into the 1-59 game died when Blizz developed the 60 game. In the end, you raid. That's it. Sure, you can TRY to PvP, but you'll get two-shotted by the people that raid, while your own attacks barely take off 2% of the enemies' health (no exaggeration here.) Since the PvP rewards are impossible to get for the average gamer (you're competing with other players, think DAoC's Realm Rank system, only your rank degrades if other players are performing better than you) and are inferior to the gear you get from raiding...you raid. Considering that Blizzard continuously said that WoW was being designed with the casual player in mind, they proved just how much of a lie that was with their end-game and PvP.
And, quite frankly, I didn't like the class design. Warlocks were a pet class, but they were far more caster than pet...my Warlock could still solo effectively without his pet. It was little more than an extra DoT on the enemy. If I play a pet class, I kinda want it so that I'm actually dependent on that pet...not necessarily that it should be my only source of damage, but at least that I cannot succeed without it. Then Blizz toted it as a debuff class when in reality we were just DoT-based Mages...yeah, I got a class that was very different from what I was expecting and wanting.
Now, that's not to say that L2 isn't without its problems. I dislike L2's class system as well (the fact that you have to play a nuker for forty levels to be a summoner is a little silly.) The grind is too hard as opposed to WoW's too easy. But overall, I think L2 looks great and has a very intuitive and simple interface...it works for me, certainly.
Im lvl 56 and PvP happened to me 3 times. Considering that Lineage 2 is advertised as PvP Game, i made faaaar more PvE than PvP.
Since i m not really interested in PvP that doesnt bother me, but all who say its a PvP game are just wrong in my Opinion.
I also played WoW ( Nightelf Priest ) and like Grakor i really liked the Questing stile and the PvE. But to the end i considered my options, what i would like to do, and i had only instances, or Battlegrounds ( wich didnt work on a heavy Alliance Server )
I started playing MMORPGs with EQ, and that game still holds me and sets my Standards. Lineage 2 works for me as a diversion, where i could grind solo or in group, like *rowing a boat* I like this term. :)