I am amazed.

Everyone, look around the forums. The Suggestion Forum has never been as active, the C5 forum is just flame flame cry flame. People are just begging for balance, begging for boosts and nerfs. You know what?

Calm down!

I don't ever remember reading about Lineage 2 being a game of balance. I don't remember Lineage 2 ever being game of 1v1 ownage, either. NCsoft has screwed up *with some aspects of the game*, we are about to follow the same path.

This game, to me, is about finding your niche and running with it. If you're a melee, and you keep getting owned in PvP because the other person ganks you with nukers, take the iniciative and make a strategy. Take the fight to them, go gank them back. If you're a nuker and you complain because sleep may get pwned hardcore, play smarter. Start grouping with someone that can keep the monster's off your [Censored], like a tank (ZOMG THE DREADED TANK WORD!).

To sum it up, the game is what it is. If you can mold that to your style of fun, then I suggest you shouldn't play this particular game. If you find your niche and you are having a blast, more power to you.

Marked the edited part in *

Everyone, look around the forums. The Suggestion Forum has never been as active, the C5 forum is just flame flame cry flame. People are just begging for balance, begging for boosts and nerfs. You know what?

Calm down!

I don't ever remember reading about Lineage 2 being a game of balance. I don't remember Lineage 2 ever being game of 1v1 ownage, either. NCsoft has screwed up *with some aspects of the game*, we are about to follow the same path.

This game, to me, is about finding your niche and running with it. If you're a melee, and you keep getting owned in PvP because the other person ganks you with nukers, take the iniciative and make a strategy. Take the fight to them, go gank them back. If you're a nuker and you complain because sleep may get pwned hardcore, play smarter. Start grouping with someone that can keep the monster's off your [Censored], like a tank (ZOMG THE DREADED TANK WORD!).

To sum it up, the game is what it is. If you can mold that to your style of fun, then I suggest you shouldn't play this particular game. If you find your niche and you are having a blast, more power to you.

Marked the edited part in *

5 stars

It's not because 99,99% of L II players know nothing more then act childlish that you are not telling me something I heard so much before.

It's not because 99,99% of L II players know nothing more then act childlish that you are not telling me something I heard so much before.

I'm sorry, but I didn't quite understand that. =(

It's not because 99,99% of L II players know nothing more then act childlish that you are not telling me something I heard so much before.

I'm sorry, but I didn't quite understand that. =(



For me 99,99% of the L II population is made out of pure griefers, scammers, carebears, nerds whatever...for me they all fall in the same helpless category of junk that you easily can see in RL too.

The world just turns like that, and there is nobody that can reasonably deny or change that.

That aside, Im also getting tired of all those people nagging about pvp-abilities...I have had my share of pvp already, and I have much more see people run away then stay.

For me, 99,99% of the people that are so focussed on pvp are just carebears that know nothing of their class and character (how this started is of no point discussing here). Sorry if you think I turned your topic down, that was not my goal...honestly I give you 110% OK.

But Im just a bit frustrated about all those so called pvp-powerhouses that run away or BSOE when they get hit.

On a sidenote...you can rapidly check my reply on the topic "why do you keep playing L II" to see that Im not totally blackvisioned nor demotivated in playing L II.

It's not because 99,99% of L II players know nothing more then act childlish that you are not telling me something I heard so much before.

Yeah, but I also wonder if it is a "Video Game Player/Online poster" sort of thing.

I see "crying" on so many of these forums. Not just for online games either. I've been playing Oblvion and loving it. I go to the forums and everyone is crying. It's not long enough, hard enough, the AI sucks etc.

I feel people are just asking and expecting too much.

Do you know what types of Video Games I played when I was a kid? Space Invaders. It was fun as hell. Graphics weren't anything to write about, same with sounds.

AI? Please... march march march *shift down a row* march march march.

We had a blast.

As far as this game goes. What can one say. People keep saying that it is a group based pvp game. Every class has it's role. Yet people want to be equal with others. Maybe that's what game developers need to do. Create a game where it really is about one on one combat as that is what people tend to base their opinions on.

Sovrath is right in that every single game I've ever played people cry and whine endlessly on the forums about how it's bad in this way or that.

It's not because 99,99% of L II players know nothing more then act childlish that you are not telling me something I heard so much before.

Yeah, but I also wonder if it is a "Video Game Player/Online poster" sort of thing.

I see "crying" on so many of these forums. Not just for online games either. I've been playing Oblvion and loving it. I go to the forums and everyone is crying. It's not long enough, hard enough, the AI sucks etc.

I feel people are just asking and expecting too much.

Do you know what types of Video Games I played when I was a kid? Space Invaders. It was fun as hell. Graphics weren't anything to write about, same with sounds.

AI? Please... march march march *shift down a row* march march march.

We had a blast.

As far as this game goes. What can one say. People keep saying that it is a group based pvp game. Every class has it's role. Yet people want to be equal with others. Maybe that's what game developers need to do. Create a game where it really is about one on one combat as that is what people tend to base their opinions on.



Well it would only result in another forum leading to no other comment then "Im leaving cause..." "Im bored cause..." "I give up cause..."

edit: I second Jute's reply

The truth everywhere is "you can't make everyone happy." Even our governments are elected by a majority vote, which rarely means 60% of the people are happy with the decision.

Well it would only result in another forum leading to no other comment then "Im leaving cause..." "Im bored cause..." "I give up cause..."

edit: I second Jute's reply

That's another thing! Why is it that on so many of these game forums you see people posting in defiance against the game company that they are quitting. That the game company could have done such and such to keep them and since they didn't they will spend their money elsewhere.

Why do I feel such posters are destined to make that post in every game they play?

If you don't like a game write the company. Contact support. If the company doesn't care. Doesn't really care, then they aren't worth it anyways.

And sometimes there isn't anything they can do. There are so many factors that need to be taken into account. Such as investors wanting their returns, too much time spent on features that really shouldn't be there in the first place.

Of course, that is not to say that game companies are perfect. Hardly so. Sometimes I wonder if they just don't have their heads in the clouds.

My idea is that you play the game until it's no longer fun then you move on.

Well it would only result in another forum leading to no other comment then "Im leaving cause..." "Im bored cause..." "I give up cause..."

edit: I second Jute's reply

That's another thing! Why is it that on so many of these game forums you see people posting in defiance against the game company that they are quitting. That the game company could have done such and such to keep them and since they didn't they will spend their money elsewhere.

Why do I feel such posters are destined to make that post in every game they play?

If you don't like a game write the company. Contact support. If the company doesn't care. Doesn't really care, then they aren't worth it anyways.

And sometimes there isn't anything they can do. There are so many factors that need to be taken into account. Such as investors wanting their returns, too much time spent on features that really shouldn't be there in the first place.

Of course, that is not to say that game companies are perfect. Hardly so. Sometimes I wonder if they just don't have their heads in the clouds.

My idea is that you play the game until it's no longer fun then you move on.



In other words, we just ignore those kinds of posts, if most of us already didn't before this thread was made.

In my experience, the ones who tell everyone else to stop whining about pvp balance are nukers or archers, lol.

In my experience, the ones who tell everyone else to stop whining about pvp balance are nukers or archers, lol.

Just so no one points fingers at me....point your finger at my sig.

In my experience, the ones who tell everyone else to stop whining about pvp balance are nukers or archers, lol.

The most wining are the ones not able to play good PvP or don't understand a piece of it ;)

Not just nukers and archers are strong in PvP...Melee have their advantage to and if more people would try and stand in an arena with there fellow classes they would find many weaknesses to the others as well as themselves and actually LEARN how to PvP ^^

I ain't a PvP forestander BUT I know it's part of this RP game :) so well yeah when I'm faced with PvP I react...Sometimes I win...Sometimes I loose...And yet I lean every time a bit more :)

Points at sigg also ^^ We ain't THAT uber...We are only uber if you believe we are ;)

If 99% of the people that play the game whine that the game is wrong and 1% of the people say the other 99% is wrong instead then who is right?

If 99% of the people that play the game whine that the game is wrong and 1% of the people say the other 99% is wrong instead then who is right?

Me, always.

Sovrath is right in that every single game I've ever played people cry and whine endlessly on the forums about how it's bad in this way or that.

Yes, its a given that every game will always have 'cryers'....but beware! Dismissing every 'cry' with a brush off and a snerk of 'whiner' is a good way to lose a majority of your subscribers/players.

Not every suggestion is a 'cry' some are indeed very legitimate issues with balance or game play. (Ones which make you wonder what clue bat could possibly be big enough to fill the hole in the designers heads. O_O)

The 'whiners' that will do the most damage however, are the ones that run around with their heads inserted into their posteriers and decry that 'nothing' is wrong the dev's are gawds and everything they do is as intended and who are you to question their divine knowledge.

Disbeliever? Oh yeah of short term memory...there been plenty of games that hit that big sucking sound due to ignorance of their player base. Behold my off-the-top-o-my-head list of big developer boo-boos.

Star Wars Galaxies (NGE/CU)
Unreal Tournament 2kX
Heroes of Might and Magic 4/5
Serious Sam 2
Dues Ex: Invisible War

And those were just the ones that I could think of in a minute. I'm sure if I took more time I could think of a ton more. (I left off the list the games that were crap, but there was no significant pre-release outcries.)

Sovrath is right in that every single game I've ever played people cry and whine endlessly on the forums about how it's bad in this way or that.

Yes, its a given that every game will always have 'cryers'....but beware! Dismissing every 'cry' with a brush off and a snerk of 'whiner' is a good way to lose a majority of your subscribers/players.

Not every suggestion is a 'cry' some are indeed very legitimate issues with balance or game play. (Ones which make you wonder what clue bat could possibly be big enough to fill the hole in the designers heads. O_O)

The 'whiners' that will do the most damage however, are the ones that run around with their heads inserted into their posteriers and decry that 'nothing' is wrong the dev's are gawds and everything they do is as intended and who are you to question their divine knowledge.

Disbeliever? Oh yeah of short term memory...there been plenty of games that hit that big sucking sound due to ignorance of their player base. Behold my off-the-top-o-my-head list of big developer boo-boos.

Star Wars Galaxies (NGE/CU)
Unreal Tournament 2kX
Heroes of Might and Magic 4/5
Serious Sam 2
Dues Ex: Invisible War

And those were just the ones that I could think of in a minute. I'm sure if I took more time I could think of a ton more. (I left off the list the games that were crap, but there was no significant pre-release outcries.)




Yes but what you are saying is that there is a difference between whining and a legitimate complaint.

Of course you don't want to have your playerbase design your game because that would be a disaster.

Consequently, you do want to listen to your playerbase if their complaints speak to legitimate gripes about design features that your game is supposed to have or is supposed to be working correctly.

As the OP says, no where does it state that there is supposed to be completely balanced PvP. The more I think of it the more I can think of many ways that the classes are acting according to their design.

This was mentioned in an older thread, but it is very possible that melee really aren't supposed to be anything other than what they are.

Now, I'm not saying that that is "right" in the grand scheme of things but it might be "right" with accordance to the designer's wishes.

We already have an "inkling" that the Korean playerbase seems to be very organized in their gameplay. That their idea of what this game is supposed to be might not "jive" with our idea of what it is supposed to be. So whining about something that may or may not be a problem doesn't do anyone any good.

Because, if they are designers with half an idea, they already know what they are about and what the game is about.

Remember... they added power to the Archers in C5. Their reason? "Because they are supposed to be powerful". So right off the bat that tells us that the game design really is hierarchical. At least as far as we can see.

Complaints about other things such as lag, the wandering mindless in game, etc. Well... those can be seen as completely valid.

A final example would be when the game first came out and all those people were complaining about how it wasn't right that they could be pk'ed by anyone at anytime. Especially by the higher lvl players. And in the noob towns.

It was very hard for those players to realize that it was an open pvp game and that that was part of the experience.

From the support site:

Q: A player is harassing me by player-killing (PK) me.

Answer

Lineage II is a player versus player (PvP) game. This means that anyone can attack anyone else at any time for any reason. We encourage our players to group frequently and form or join clans so that they can fight back against any aggressors that may attack them.

So there is an example of the game design truly being one thing and yet there were so many people who were up in arms about that. It may also extend to the fact that not all classes need be able to take out Archers and Mages but that healers, buffers and melee are to be part of a larger group for security and power. I just pose this for argument's sake, not to say that I believe that Archers and Mages should rule over all.

In some ways it's like complainig that "my volvo is boxy". Well.. ya know... "they're boxy... but they're good" (anybody? anybody?)

So yes, your point is well taken that it is important to weed out what are legitimate complaints from the endless whining from players who just want to get their own way. So, point well taken.

As the OP says, no where does it state that there is supposed to be completely balanced PvP. The more I think of it the more I can think of many ways that the classes are acting according to their design.

I have an 'inkling' (and I don't think I am alone in this) that *whatever* the original designers had in mind for the game balance got stuffed into the wastebasket and dumped like yesterdays orange peels.

All too often it feels like the Kr Dev's have fallen into the "patch the patches" design method. This being the one that follows the illogical chain of errors. Fly Problem? Import Frogs. Frog Problem? Import Crows? Crow Problem? Import Cats. Cat Problem? Import Dogs. Dog Problem? Import Alligators. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I think 'perfect balance' is a red herring. You only get that in a system where there is only one possible character class. I also think the "RPS" system is one big kludge that will fix nothing. It boggles my mind why NC doesn't strengthen the original design concepts instead of artificially warping them to fit some arbitrary post implementation definition.

It seems like the few things that NC does get right it does halfheartedly and more by accident than anything else.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use each classes inherent skills and design to 'balance' the game instead?

Shouldn't Tanks have the best Defense? (> Mage/Archer) and conversely be weak to things which bypass that defense? (Dagger skills/debuffs/DoT's)

Mages have strong attacks with range....but no defense. Thus being weak to Archers, able to Kill or disable at range the others, but no defense at melee range.

Daggers main defense being evasion, but weak to attacks which don't rely on normal 'to hits'?

Archers have strong ranged attacks....but no defense against debuffs (root/debuff) or magic (mdef).

Healers have no strong attack power, but strong defense to magic and ability to greatly empower the other classes by healing and buffing.

Warriors being jack of all trades...

I don't think it matters whether they whine or complain about L2 anymore. Has anyone seen a problem with the servers being UNDERpopulated? Sure they whine about getting owned, but how many actually quit? Not enough to hurt the game, because the complaints are not legit. There's nothing really WRONG with PvP in L2, it's simply that some people don't agree with the system. Like it or not, it's pretty much here to stay ( with some minor adjustments in every chapter). Let's face it, we don't wanna end up like WoW....better to just leave what isn't broken alone, and let the whiners go play a loser's MMORPG. ;)

I don't think it matters whether they whine or complain about L2 anymore. Has anyone seen a problem with the servers being UNDERpopulated? Sure they whine about getting owned, but how many actually quit? Not enough to hurt the game, because the complaints are not legit. There's nothing really WRONG with PvP in L2, it's simply that some people don't agree with the system. Like it or not, it's pretty much here to stay ( with some minor adjustments in every chapter). Let's face it, we don't wanna end up like WoW....better to just leave what isn't broken alone, and let the whiners go play a loser's MMORPG. ;)

You are correct in your assumption of leaving a well working game as it is and as Sovrath stated to weede out the legitimate questions from the pur 'I don't like the ...' whining.

However, even if WoW (because you state it so clearly) is a less 'dangerous' or exciting game (PvP wise) for you, it doesn't mean you have to portray it as a game for loosers. Everyone has his style of gaming he preferes and that is their right. So please don't label people just because they like less aggressive games (and for making it clear, I've played WoW and I don't like it...So I ain't a pro WoW person).

LOL @ carebears. does sieghart even know what the word pvp means?

LOL @ carebears. does sieghart even know what the word pvp means?

The guy you replied to plays on Lionna....

LOL @ carebears. does sieghart even know what the word pvp means?

For most players it's the abbrevation of running away as fast as you can, presumably aimless.

LOL @ carebears. does sieghart even know what the word pvp means?

For most players it's the abbrevation of running away as fast as you can, presumably aimless.


Let's not forget to Bless SOE :D

And yes on Sieghardt we KNOW what PvP means ^^
Do you? ;)

LOL @ carebears. does sieghart even know what the word pvp means?

For most players it's the abbrevation of running away as fast as you can, presumably aimless.


Let's not forget to Bless SOE :D

And yes on Sieghardt we KNOW what PvP means ^^
Do you? ;)



Or the Force Log, highly appreciated by a certain category of players...or well players may not be the right word here.

Some whining is legitimate - as are some suggestions - but if you're going to whine and KEEP PLAYING, really what is the point? Cancel your account and go find some other game. Sad but true.

Yes, some classes are underpowered/overpowered whatever. That's why we work in teams. The game was more meant for mass PVP then that one-on-one arena stuff. Summoners are going to have to bite the bullet this round - which happens to be my main - but who really cares? Nothing is ever as bad as it sounds - and people like to whine and blow things out of proportion.

And suggestions - yes, many of them are legtimiate but understand that a programmers point of view not even a fraction of them can be implemented within any reasonable frame of time - and many of them would actually harm the game. A few off the top of my head are no dropping/trading adena, horses and style mounts for all characters (cool, but not needed.), and non-pvp zones.

Really, if you whine, get over it. Some things cannot be solved and some things do not need to be solved.

no dropping/trading adena

Can you set up a shop selling 1 stem for 100 mil adena?