It's already bad enough that EVERYBODY can see the HP on the summon, but that they can also get a color reference like with mobs (blue, white, green, yellow, red) gives the other player a VERY GOOD idea of your lv....
Why don't you just let everyone double click on it and see all the stats? -.- (I'm being sarcastic here, please dont go and do that...I wouldn't put it past them...)
It's incredibly stupid that they throw an entire class down the drain just because of the Olympiads, I couldn't care less about them, never compited and now I plan NEVER to even try...with this "adjustments" I probably wont ever reach the lv to compete anyway...
And why cant we unsummon while in combat? What is the reasoning behind that, can anybody explain?
You are totally R A P Ing our class here: fancy killing the summoner community.. then keep on going: the first and only class to be subject to an official HP & Level ****!
Seriously, if you want summoner like me to download walker and co to keep up at the same level than the rest of the player.. you wouldn't act differently.
Reason for being unable to unsummon is simple. You are to die.
Agroed one more mob than usual? Die, because your sleep is <censored>.
Got your clan in war? Die, because even if your summon isn't erased in pve, it'll be feared to run into mass of mobs, take lots of agro, die there obviously, and all that agro transfers to you, because you can't unsummon. And to your party, if you had one.
Some maybe-not-even-on-purpose trainer passes by you with agro mobs? Your summon will take lots of agro (i don't think this had been changed in C5, and can't test it yet personally, client updates slowly), you can't do a thing about that. UD + soe and/or die, die, die.
Warlocks are okay, they're queen-bots, now.
As for my ES?.. Uhm, it seems that all that's left in this pvp-oriented game for me is roleplaying some high-n-wise elder elf (too weak to be even slimmest of factors in this unlegit world).
And no, i'm not happy about it. I think, summoners are being severely and incompetently nerfed. TY, necro fotms.
I've made a poll aimed at True Summoners mainly: if you have one, feel free to answer so we can see how the Summoner community is currently apprehending the comming C5 Nerf.
The problem is that for NC, our servitor is a MOB.
We didn't get included in party buffs till C4. Now all people can see our summon level (and our level too with it).
Why just don't put the lvl near the Cat name? It would be so easy...
I'm disgusted.
NC destroyed my class, they made it become a buffer with the Queen of Cat and made us defenseless with all the C5 nerfs with was obviusly made for necro, but, oh suprise, they kill us because a necro still can nuke, and we can't do anything without our servitors.
Thanks, thanks, great job.
But I'm sure that nothing will change... NC corea don't listen to us. So, keep crying, it's the only thing we can do.
No longer being able to unsummon while in combat mode = no more training of players/bots.
Not that big of a deal for a Necromancer (although I personally would like to continue training bots), but for pure summoners this will suck. Summon dies and you are in trouble.
NCSoft might as well give us summoners sleep now. They've nerfed it enough, so it would fit in perfectly with our gimp lil' class now. :p
I can get over the new anti-summon skills; but come on. Letting *everyone* see the HP/level of our summons? Guess it's not just for *coughcoughcough* anymore, eh.
My question, though. I know folks watching the Olympiad can see the HP/MP/etc. of both parties involved. Is it that way for folks actually participating in it? Put another way, is that the real reason behind the viewable HP? If so, it would be better limited to the Olympiad and party members; 'though we all know the developers don't believe in constraint when it comes to these topics!
Making the HP and lvl of our summons viewable by all is a huge nerf and I even reported it as a bug because I thought it was a bug on the PTS.
If it's a problem that people in the Olympia can't see the HP of the summon fine fix that. Giving all ppl access to see my summons HP and lvl makes make so easy to kill that even a n00b could do it.
So NC Soft fix the problem with the Olympia instead of nerfing all the summoners around. And please think of the numbers of summoners even in the Olympia. It's maybe 0.1% of summoners and you chose to nerf all 100%.
Very bad choice of solution to a problem.
Just like most here
/summoner on hold untill the future fixes this problem.
Just did the test here on PTS, an lv 75 BH vs 75 PS, I owned him completly..... yeah he managed to beat my CP by the time I got the summoner down.... No cubics thoght culd ben different with them up :P well se.
Secondly anyhow what we didtest was the damage reduction that summons got, it's 30% less PVP damage. Wich is a BIG hit.
Yeah pvp damage got reduced a lot, I tried to kill a griefing dagger user with my unicorn merrow and it was like trying to kill a tank, he just wouldn't go down, in the end he ran off and logged. In C4 I would have been able to take him down.
Anyway I'm not logging back on test for a while because the pk'ing really got out of hand, I can't test anything.
What'd I say when they released the C4 patch notes?
"Fear the nerf that will follow this crap."
I'm so glad I'm bored with Mielle right now - not being able to unsummon in combat is in all actuality a harsher nerf than the rest put together from my perspective, since it means whenever the servitor dies in solo PvE, we also die or BSoE.
As of today my lvl 71 Elemental Summoner is officially retired. I've taken her out of the clan and asked them to invite my sws instead.
GJ NCSoft summoner := summoner - 1;
so their nerf made you retire the class you have been spending alot of time (and as such paid alot of money to NCSoft) only to reroll and continue the game ?
As of today my lvl 71 Elemental Summoner is officially retired. I've taken her out of the clan and asked them to invite my sws instead.
GJ NCSoft summoner := summoner - 1;
so their nerf made you retire the class you have been spending alot of time (and as such paid alot of money to NCSoft) only to reroll and continue the game ?
Yes unfortunately that's true. Once there is another mmorpg out there that has pvp and doesn't look crap like WoW does I'll be switching to it faster than you can blink. As it is I just see L2 as a stop gap now on my way to better things. And that's from someone that used to love this game...
I know that the best thing would be to just close my accounts. Unfortunately I have too much time on my hands and nothing to spend it on. NC have lost my trust in them completely though. Taking a class that took 1.5 years to level to 71 and make it useless doesn't bode well for other classes now does it? You could be next.
If you can see the hp, you can tell when the summon is low and about to die. Not that people can massively switch targets during pvp anyways. It really won't have dramatic effect.
It's pretty frequent for people to switch to trying to stun the summoner when they notice the servitor not going down due to heals - often so that the servitor can be healed just in the nick of time, saving both the summoner.
It gives people a huge tactical leverage (as far as you can speak about that in L2), making the decisions of how to act as easy as PvE.
In addition, it means summoners can no longer fake a low level in order to bait reds, grief and so on and so forth - all natural functions for other characters, who need merely throw on some D Grade and look quite inconspicious.
Last but not least, it means totally safe PvE griefing of any pure summoner - hit the summon, let mobs finish it off, watch the mobs jump onto the summoner (who can no longer defend himself by unsummoning, which, in some shape or form, has always been present for PvE emergencies and was removed not only without notice but also without a good reason), and watch the summoner die defenselessly.
If you want to grief any other class this way, you have to risk going red or use incredibly slow DoTs.
Last but not least, it means totally safe PvE griefing of any pure summoner - hit the summon, let mobs finish it off, watch the mobs jump onto the summoner (who can no longer defend himself by unsummoning, which, in some shape or form, has always been present for PvE emergencies and was removed not only without notice but also without a good reason), and watch the summoner die defenselessly.
Or...unsummon while he's griefing and watch him standing alone next to a bunch of aggro while you resummon buff and go red on him.
Don't forget the WarSmith's....we got only 4 offencive skill (2 blunt and 2 pollearm) until we reach lvl 76+...now that they have nerfed the summons in PvP and made lvl viewable for all they have became useless...BountyHunters got they're fake death to get the mob's of they're back and made spoiling posible in PvP so if they win they can get an good loot.
The only reason I choosed WS was so that I could solo with the help of the summons that they get...I know that it dosn't affect the PvE, but if someone sees an low lvl summon he can make it as hes advantage.
The only reason I'm gonna keep my WS is that they got some nice animation on some sub-clases...I don't think I will play my dwarf as an WS anymore.
And btw...I have NEVER been able to unsummon during and fight in C4.
Last but not least, it means totally safe PvE griefing of any pure summoner - hit the summon, let mobs finish it off, watch the mobs jump onto the summoner (who can no longer defend himself by unsummoning, which, in some shape or form, has always been present for PvE emergencies and was removed not only without notice but also without a good reason), and watch the summoner die defenselessly.
Or...unsummon while he's griefing and watch him standing alone next to a bunch of aggro while you resummon buff and go red on him.
You can't unsummon during combat situations anymore. Frankly it's a nerf and a fairly nasty one. In PVP a lot of the summoner's power comes from two targets who seemingly cannot die. The fact is we barely manage that and if they enemy knew how close they were to winning it woudl change combat with a summoner a lot. It's ridiculous to throw away a 7X character, I started my summoner 3 days after release and it'd be a waste of over 2 years due to something like this. It's a hard nerf and it WILL get me killed a lot more often but people just need to calm down about it.
I know a lot of people in L2 have not been given fair skills, or have been nerfed through the Chronicles (dagger in C2 for example) but they NEVER had their HP or level viewable by all people. This is simply a stupid thing.
This is what I cannot accept. It's simply not fair... and I dare anyone to say it is right.
IMO the lvl thing isnt such a big deal, everyone knows ppls general lvls anyway just by looking at their armor grade.
Color of summon gives at best a guess of +/- 2 lvls to the summon.....provided the viewer is close enough in lvl to see it as white, blue/pink/red and your talking +/- 4 or 5 lvls , now add the fact that the summoner itself is gonna be +/- 2 lvls to the actual summon....the overall guess is at best +/- 5 lvls .
Similar lvl info can already be obtained by viewing party rooms, or examining the lvl of debuffs someone casts on you.
Wow, what a sudden change in melody: I thought Erase was perfectly fine in all situations? Will you wait a few threads until you admit the griefing possibilities between inability to unsummon, aggro magnetism and viewable HP are way out of whack, too?
That's exactly Ehli's style, I'm honestly not surprised.
And any rephrases on your self-ownage about unsummon to save the day?
Underquotes ftw, eh?
Luke already had to endure a lot self-ownage regarding his knowledge of the summoner class, give him a break. :p Watch him become a selfproclaimed expert if/when he or a friend he talks to a lot rolls one on the PTS.
Don't forget the WarSmith's....we got only 4 offencive skill (2 blunt and 2 pollearm) until we reach lvl 76+...now that they have nerfed the summons in PvP and made lvl viewable for all they have became useless...BountyHunters got they're fake death to get the mob's of they're back and made spoiling posible in PvP so if they win they can get an good loot.
The only reason I choosed WS was so that I could solo with the help of the summons that they get...I know that it dosn't affect the PvE, but if someone sees an low lvl summon he can make it as hes advantage.
The only reason I'm gonna keep my WS is that they got some nice animation on some sub-clases...I don't think I will play my dwarf as an WS anymore.
And btw...I have NEVER been able to unsummon during and fight in C4.
Spoil in PvP?!?!!? WTF? Why don't you just rename the skill Steal! Oh great, so now we don't even have to drop our stuff for someone to take it, just die in pvp and have someone turn us a bright sparkly blue, and rip the item from our inventory. If I ever get Zariche I'll pk every bounty hunter I see.
While the hp and level is severly unfair on the summoner classes you should know by now that NC Soft hates summoners.
I doubt many who rolled summoner for pvp will continue to play it but for those of us who rolled up a summoner for fun this is just a step back from C4. I still believe we are slightly better off than in C3.
And you do realise that there are other reasons to roll a summoner (being the most solid soloing class in the game for example), which have also been impacted?
The unsummon nerf is considerably harsher for summoner safety than the sleep nerf is for mages.
Ummm, it doesn't work how you think. Since c4 Bh's can enchant their skill Spoil to have added effects in pvp. Like putting a DoT on the opponent. NOT stealing their gear.
And you do realise that there are other reasons to roll a summoner (being the most solid soloing class in the game for example), which have also been impacted?
The unsummon nerf is considerably harsher for summoner safety than the sleep nerf is for mages.
Hm not sure how you play (in what risky areas), but maybe once a month I have to desummon my summon during combat. It will only be "too bad" for training people/bots. As for transfer pain; I don't use that PvE much; I don't put myself in such a risk (I solo at fotd, woa, goats). UD2 is my "oh ****" spell, as IMO it should be.
Overall I don't mind PvE at all. Just shame of the training we can't do, oh well.
And you do realise that there are other reasons to roll a summoner (being the most solid soloing class in the game for example), which have also been impacted?
The unsummon nerf is considerably harsher for summoner safety than the sleep nerf is for mages.
Hm not sure how you play (in what risky areas), but maybe once a month I have to desummon my summon during combat. It will only be "too bad" for training people/bots. As for transfer pain; I don't use that PvE much; I don't put myself in such a risk (I solo at fotd, woa, goats). UD2 is my "oh ****" spell, as IMO it should be.
Overall I don't mind PvE at all. Just shame of the training we can't do, oh well.
The PvE in C5 doesn't bother me with the changes we will face. Those I can figure out a way to get around but I do care about the changes for PvP. I still cry about the HP and lvl. Again if I could see ppl's lvl (by color ofc) and their HP then I would find it fair but to give 1 side that important info is for PvP a huge blow for me as the summoner.
Well all there is to do is hope for NC Soft to see how unfair it is for the summoners or give us those same options. I would not mind getting a HP bar on all ppl and see their lvl's.
The problem is not that, it's that you can be grieved by anyone, they can "help" the mobs so your summon gets killed and then YOU get the aggro...
And the unsummon in combat saved my [censored] in parties A LOT, esp when someone screws up...
And the summon HP/lv viewable is simply unfair...it doesn't matter it it doesnt affect us much...how would ANY char like to have their hp and lv viewable by all?
As someone said before, they're forcing us to use the 3rd party programs to see the hp of other players so we can be in the same conditions...how is that fair?
PS: And don't get me started on erase...I couldn't test ANYTHING at all in the arena because some prophet kept erasing my summon...the landing rate is insane...it should at least cast slow or have some more cooldown...now any idiot with a boxed healer can grief me... T.T
There are instances of solo AoE for ES. Summoner is worse than nuker with emp in AoE, because servitor lags considerably harder at responding to commands than a player character itself.
Also there are instances of being trained.
On purpose or not. Servitor draws much agro even if it stands still. Also sometimes mobs glitch and appear as if walked away. Once you send servitor in, you might get additional 3 mobs of agro and if you didn't follow your pet (like, tried to pull, or something), you can unsummon rather than die.
I trained other persons only once. That was a botting person from a friendly ally, caught second time, while first time he swore he did not know and it was his friend, and so on.
Yet i definitely used unsummon many times. There are places that are bad for exp exactly because you're in danger of losing your servitor.
And even if people insist upon our being evil trainers (mind you, training as a summoner is not easy), FD is still there for three classes and is kept in, and is used to grief, and is officially confirmed a technically normal aspect of gameplay. (see "did you know?" section of lineage2.com)
/agree
Even if Im a hybrid summoner I still have to rely on my panther as in PvP... it gimped in doing damage aswell as all other summons. Being able to display the HP really kills of the last decent chanse to get in to PvP.
Imo NC slowly removes the fun in PvP.. this start to be something else than a PvP game. You cant start a class knowing that you will be pleased with it since NC keep altering the abilities for each chronicle. I have a family and full time work++ and I have no chanse starting over.
Maybe its time to turn in the wings...
Summoners got these nerfs because of the olympiad. Well I played on teon today and saw this in hero chat:
"mindless: wts olympiad game match loss, unequip ur gear and come trade me at olypmiad 80mill"
THIS is what we got nerfed for?
I know for a fact that many hero's on gustin got the hero status given to them also. NC, you can't seriously be nerfing all summoners for this...
Yes, it is....cos, as I said before, in Korea players apparently are "carebear" type, and don't pvp outside arena or olympiads, so the developers there have absolutely NO IDEA of what they're doing to us in the american servers, which are very PVP oriented...since summoners were owning every other class in Olympyad, they HAD to be nerfed...see? It makes sense to them!
I still can't see where they came up with the HP/lv viewable, that is, as someone said before, an exploit, and should NOT be happening...it's not even helpful in parties since the summon does not appear in the party bar and the healers have to target it to see their hp...so WHAT'S THE POINT???
And most of the other classes that can summon are not complaining as hard because they can still hit and have a chance of survival without a summon, WE DON'T...
Skyshadow Meadow. I'm still waiting for it to become impossible, because it sure didn't the last two times people said it would - unsummoning is a major booboo though. Sometimes I unsummon because my servitor (due to [censored] kiting behaviour) is too far away from me on a respawn.
Single target, I'm 100% safe, but ESs are obviously not meant to play single target - what other purpose than AoE does Bright Servitor play, if you don't count farming the manor on single target mobs with the mirage (and who does that?).
All I have to say is... poor summoners... overnerfed when they got only 1 chronicle of pvp superiority.... wait that happened to daggers too b4 :O
The HP view imo is a bad nerf, it only makes summons a easier target since ppl can see how much hp is left, and the color thing for it? lol that muct suck :/
The only reason I can think of why they'd put that in is because transfer pain is abit overpowered (in c4) you take dmg like a tank, while the summon does damage like a DD and you can heal it like a bishop :O so with HP view ppl can see the summon's HP as it gets lower due to transfer pain then switch target to summon when hp is low enough.
Newsflash, to make up for this:
- Servitors have craptcacular crit rate, so no, they actually don't "do damage like a DD," because damage in this game is from crits, and servitors crit like human mages wearing blunts.
- Servitors have less PDef than an unbuffed equal level mage in robes. MDef is low also, although not quite as craptacular.
- Attack and cast speed are both pitiful, as no tattoos, set boni or passive skills enhance it.
Yes, the summoner in C4 was certainly a 1v1 beast - but they weren't a class that could run around an open PvP field and just drop a few classes right after each other at ridiculous speed like AF mages and MM daggers could.
And you won't be the ubar DD until you get the crit totem - a critical hit hits for four to five times or so of the base value on the right classes, some of them crit not every other swing but almost every.
Comparing a summon, which crits maybe once every ten to twenty swings, with that is ridiculous, especially since the base-high crit classes for some obscure reason get more out of the crit buffs.
As of today my lvl 71 Elemental Summoner is officially retired. I've taken her out of the clan and asked them to invite my sws instead.
GJ NCSoft summoner := summoner - 1;
Didn't bother to read all posts, stopped at this one.
Wow, what a pansy. ES are good in PVP. Only class shafted is PS cuz thier pet's buffs are crap.
Warlock = pwn in archer party
ES = Pwn in mage party.
ES + BD + 77 SWS.....Now...give them SPS's or any mages....2-3 people will die before the 1st character hits the ground. Perhaps your clan wasn't set up to have you in it, but ES's are very good in Mage teams.
They can do some good in PVE in archer teams. Increase MP regen rate, as well as their cubics hit harder than any other cubic. We sometimes take our ES enstead of a healer. It's alittle wierd but it gets everyone XP and don't need to bring oop recharger to heart or anything.
For long raids like antharas....wow, ES can help alot. I think people complain cuz their class isn't godly atm like Necros. Some classes have room to complain. ES/Warlocks shouldn't. You can level fast once you have your pet's C4 buff, and fit into pvp parties if yer clan is smart.
We are not buffbishes, we are DDs. Whoever is operating the Seraphim in your mage party isn't actually an ES, just that - a seraphim. The pansy is the ES who rolled over and is now playing his Seraphim instead of himself.
Would gladiators own if they got party buffs? Would they not complain?
Just because you didn't even notice summoners until C4 doesn't mean they didn't exist before that.
True. I so hate people who think of us as buffers... I know my queen has nice buffs, but I'm not a buffer. If I wanted to play a buffer, I would have played a Prophet, not a Warlock.
And if I wanted to pvp as a buffer, I would have rolled a **** buffer.
Exactly.. anyone who looks at there summoner as "just fine" becuase of those stupid 4th summons is not a real summoner. I am a PS.. and I hate using nightshade. I am not a friggin healer, if I wanted to heal, I would have made a healer, etc.. I would not play a warlock or ES as a buffer either, for that is not the summoner way. But I am talking from a summoner playing since C1.
Oh.. and don't forget.. in C4 with all the boosts we got nerfs too.. like the agg transfer from summon to summoner as one example. You know.. I would be fine with not being able to "unsummon" (just like the old days).. If the agg did not transfer... (like the old days).
But seeing my summons health and aprox level of my 60's summons at my level simply is far to dangerous in a PVP.. trainer happy world. Yeah.. if I was 70+ I might not worry so much even if I thought it was unfair (yeah.. I level my summoner slowly.. I have a ton of alts). But at lower levels this is totaly going to kill off any newer players trying to xp. Think about it, how many folks like to train in Branded on your server? So for the new summoner trying to level things will be quite dangerous in there. At least in C1, C2, C3, and C4 a summoner could save himself in such a situation. C5 nerfs combined with previous "corrections" from past chronicles is what will kick the nards out of summoners. And for a lot of us.. it takes the will out of activly playing them.
We are not buffbishes, we are DDs. Whoever is operating the Seraphim in your mage party isn't actually an ES, just that - a seraphim. The pansy is the ES who rolled over and is now playing his Seraphim instead of himself.
Would gladiators own if they got party buffs? Would they not complain?
Just because you didn't even notice summoners until C4 doesn't mean they didn't exist before that.
And ES's damage output is insignificant compared to the advantage the seraphems buff can do to a mage team. An ES cannot 1shot a 75+ toon. A mage can. Eliminating reuse for a mage is BY FAR more effective than having another unicorn out and having to buff 10 people in a party.
Next your gona try tell me BD's are primary DD's. BD's are primary buffers, secondary DD's. Same as an ES.
Just great.
But for each ES that often has a luxury of high level mage party to buff (you know, solo nuker doesn't eagerly search for seraphim to feed its master with exp) there's a dozen of ES who do not have that.
And let me guess... until 56 ES has to nuke?
By saying all this you prove that you no NOTHING about Pre C4 summoners.
Pre C4 summoners are solo players at heart, this playstyle is of an Independant self reliant DD. This is by far the most enjoyable playstyle and people Pre C4 didnt' roll a summoner to be a buff slave.
C4 gave the option to be a buff slave if you wished (I rarely party cause its extremely boring) and now in C5 they are almost forcing it upon us to party.
ES fall into the same category as Nukers, there in lies a clue.
By saying all this you prove that you no NOTHING about Pre C4 summoners.
Pre C4 summoners are solo players at heart, this playstyle is of an Independant self reliant DD. This is by far the most enjoyable playstyle and people Pre C4 didnt' roll a summoner to be a buff slave.
C4 gave the option to be a buff slave if you wished (I rarely party cause its extremely boring) and now in C5 they are almost forcing it upon us to party.
ES fall into the same category as Nukers, there in lies a clue.
Next your gona try tell me BD's are primary DD's. BD's are primary buffers, secondary DD's. Same as an ES.
... We are offensive mages... we are supposed to be DD's .... we have 2 TWO 2 Frigging buffs, Bd's and Sws have way MORE. so because in the FOURTH installment of Lineage we got TWO buffs we are suddenly buffers!?!?!?!?!!?
NC soft hates us, and I will act according to this scheme, I will not let my summoner die, nor become a buffbish >_>
... We are offensive mages... we are supposed to be DD's ....
Actually, all that suggests is that you are supposed to kill physical characters 1v1. Warcryer is a buffer, but he's still got great offense stats and defense stats. Dwarves are warriors, but they carry a blunt and shield?
Just because you're grouped with a nuker in RPS doesn't mean you deal the same damage, it just means you kill the same type of targets. Considering you both start out as wizards, that part becomes obvious. Doesn't make you a nuker by any means however.
We didn't want or need these idiotic summons, no matter how effective they are - nay, moreso than they are better than us, as an excuse to nerf us into the floor on everything else. Remove the archers' range and PAtk in exchange for trapping ability (support class), let's see how funny they find that.
I don't care how insignificant or bad my class was at its job, that is no excuse to rip that job off me and give me a new one.
PS: No Luke, it doesn't make us nukers -but it does make us DDs, note that our damage was so overpowered in 1v1 self-buffed PvP that it received a flat out nerf.
Nobody claimed we had good damage when buffed - which is why everyone is so baffled NCSoft felt the urge to nerf it (for the second time - the first nerf to summoner arcane damage was putting it up with a ~75% reduction and applying a 90% experience penalty to it though, so why are we wondering again?).
The point isn't how good or bad we were at DDing or soloing (and it was really bad in C3, nevermind C1 and C2), that was always our job.
Does it matter that paladins were, for a long time, considered inferior to DAs? Would that be a valid reason to remove their tank skills and replace them with DD ones? Will you still be happy when the equivalent of C5 for summoner hits, and, after realising that Angelic Icon might have been a bit too good, NCSoft takes away your shield and heavy armour masteries, your majesty and your shield stun?
In that case, my apologies. I assumed you were a SpS that rolled ES as a sub for novelty based on the order you list your classes in in your signature.
Wow I read through this whole thing, I MUST BE SLEEPY! Anyways... yeah nerfs are never nice they suck to hell. Ncsoft Korea loves 1v1 unbuffed that how they changed the game for c5. Unfortunately summoners got steamed rolled in the process because they are way strong in unbuffed 1v1.
About seeing the pets hp, IMO you should be able to see every single players vividly without exception, this is a feature that is in existence in MOST mmorpgs why not L2? Helps to strategize better and etc. Although many people do cheat ingame and can see your actual amount of hp/mp and the exact level. All they needed to do was nerf the pvp dmg just a little and that was it. In pts I honestly owned a summoner quite easy, such a difference to c4, they are so freakin strong. Summoners still do dmg but not like they used to.
Anyways I understand what you guys are going through, although tyrants got lucky and had their nerfs for the most part taken away because of their popularity, I understand how you guys feel though. For a min I was quitting the game COMPLETELY, 1500hp to activate a totem while it ticks away on hp for 70-7hp per tick along with each totem being like -25% pdef/mdef was such a overboard nerf that everyone knew it was going to be changed. All I can say is summoners it couldve been worst. Just keep up with your class especially if you have been playing it for a while.
I fill sorry for the healers that would venture to erase dark blue ponies only to find in a moment later that their owner is not a summoner class at all :D
This is one Summoner that will not go quietly in the night! What they did to us was wrong, they effectivly took our class, a class that has never enjoyed a large percentage of the server population, and kicked it to the ground.
Tell me how others seeing our summoners HP imporves anything?
- Them: So people can help heal your bet.
- Me: Healing my pet is MY job not others! True summoners, at least warlocks, have a heal servetor spell that can out heal even a bishops heals! If I need help I will tell the group, help heal please!!!
- Me: How to "screw" with a summoner, hit the summon while its fighting a mob stop just before it gets real low and let mob finish it off, agro goes to summoner, summoner dies drops equipment. Game over!
Pets are not MOBS, they are Player controled NPC's! You can see MOBs HP, but should never see an NPC's HP, or for that mater a players HP!!!
So yes, this is one of many nails in the coffin for summoners. Don't even get me started on the Erase skill!!!
Krissa, the bishop heals better than a summoner only with Restore Life - regular heals are plain out ~10% stronger coming from the servitor's master. To boost, the servitor heals are just about as fast as regular heals (and let's not go into the mana-sink that is GBH), and do not require the master to switch target.
PS: The heals are at the same heal/MP as a bishop's only if the summoner turns on arcane agility.
You miss his point entirely. If you can heal the pet so well, then you can easily keep it healed while you finish the mob and then fight the griefing player. So he find it difficult to claim BOTH not that one heal is better than another. If its so easy to heal your pet, spam heals while you kill both involved. Or UD on the pet til the mob is finished then kill the player. There are a lot more options than: bend over and take it.
Yes, it is a griefing tactic, but so is estimating the summons hp and attacking it during exp.
I for one, in PvE, frequently find myself sitting down and getting back up just so I have enough MP for the next mob group.
Then, I guess, you aren't really afraid to drop anything in PvE. Still, the griefer does not know if you have some MP reserved for emergency cases. Unless you are in the same party... which could be bad not only for summoners :D
The griefer can take a chance with it - and of course, can see me sitting/standing.
I'm not sure what you mean by being afraid to drop stuff in PvE - I'll be carrying a BSoE for emergencies come C5, right now I only die while I'm not two-boxing, freezing up and making mistakes due to adjusting to a new hunting spot.
Most players have to keep their weapons hidden when they want to do such things. If erase is like disarming a melee's weapon (which many summoners have compared it to) then that kinds makes sense. I can tell the level of the weapon a player is carrying...your pet is your weapon. The hp viewable is a mistake however. But not in the direction you think. All hp should be viewable.
Except it takes us nearly a full 10 seconds to put our weapon back on - see the problem? When we want to fake out our level, we have to hide our weapon, our armour, and use a gimpy servitor. Now we can't anymore, that plain and simple.
By the way, Erase is not like unequipping your weapon. It's like unequipping your weapon, cutting your PDef and MDef in half, getting silent and cancelled at the same time.
If all HP were viewable, and I agree that this would be a nice touch, I would definitely agree with servitor HP being visible - still, I would prefer having grade-specific graphics for the servitors over the name colour indication.
Good thing I subclassed Necromancer rather than Warlock. Summoners are nerfed, but they are overpowered in general in C4 and like daggers were, are nerfed. I feel sad though only 1 chronicle of decency.
Most players have to keep their weapons hidden when they want to do such things. If erase is like disarming a melee's weapon (which many summoners have compared it to) then that kinds makes sense. I can tell the level of the weapon a player is carrying...your pet is your weapon. The hp viewable is a mistake however. But not in the direction you think. All hp should be viewable.
So when you see an Elf mystic in DC and SOM, you know she is atleast 61+, but cannot tell if she is actually 61 or if she's 78. That range is a whole 17 levels that you dont' really know till they've hit you.
When you see a summon is white to you at 70 for example, you know the summon is either 68-72, so thus you can figure out the summoner is 66-70. That seems ALOT more specific then just knowing the level range of someone based off their gear...
Mmm basic buff 1v1 too, just not when sws/bd come into play. Even then, its the archers/mages that jump away from the rest of the crowd, not that summoners get terribly left behind at that point.
We're not talking about 1v1 PvP - nobody, I think, would doubt that the summoner was overpowered at that (but just disabling the use of beast SS would have fixed that for the olympiad).
But in group PvP, a summoner is not enough of a DD to compete with others, despite NCSoft's claims that they're the most overpowered DD in the game and thus needed a nerf.
Some of the mass cubics are very powerful, esp in C5. In a good archer group, queen + cubics is pretty nasty, and the cat is good for cleanup due to speed. It's definately not mediocre, nor is it "archer overpowered" like the rest of offensive mages became. Again, I find the imbalance of other classes more the issue. A summoner in mass pvp between two parties that include no archers/nukers would be an asset. I think you have to take those two out of the balance questions because the consensus is that they are overpowered to begin with.
Bahaha at storm cubic. It fires what, once every two minutes, for the damage of a same-level nuker without empower, shots, or +INT... meaning it's almost as good as 0.5% of a nuker? :p
Phantom cube got nerfed hard from what I hear, and aqua cubic I will admit is very nice - I love seeing it eat away at 1k+ HP like it's breakfast.
I am thinking of anything that can wear a sharp-edged weapon for balance in mass PvP by the way. An SK can outdamage, and outlast, a summon - that's just plain sad.
Nah the cubic fires way more often, you just have to be in attack mode which a lot of summoners don't get to be in pvp, so I understand why it feels awful. On an archer at 900 range it's nasty, especially on 5 or 6 of them. You see one fire once every 20 seconds or so. That's a lot of extra damage in party vs party pvp. If we aren't counting archer/nuker in the pvp parties either, then 400 damage every 20 seconds is a big deal. It's not back breaking, nor should it be. Just a balanced boost that can help turn the tide.
And why shouldn't an SK outlast a summon? Real characters should be more powerful than your summon. Summoners are built on teamwork between them and their pet. If one is elminated (LS/para summoner) the other should be relatively weak.
I am thinking of anything that can wear a sharp-edged weapon for balance in mass PvP by the way. An SK can outdamage, and outlast, a summon - that's just plain sad.
Where did you ever hear this? Even considering lightning stike an SK should not win against a summoner at near neve levels. Worst case scenario the para the master and get killed by pet after they kill master. 9 times out of 10 they will fail para or para per instead. A para'd summon is a hotkey away from fighting again and is no issue.
The nerf on phantom is to make the durations shorter, not a nerf in PVE but a bit in PVP. I beleive the landrate is increased but it goes off a ton anyway. Storm goes of a lot in a group, especially if you are using decent speed DDs (or a tyrant, ohh cubics with a tyrant).
Nuhuh, I'm in attack mode on targets 5 or so levels lower than me (yes, lower levels increase trigger rate - this is tested and definitely true) when I solo, and the storm cubic fire rate is stupidly low, combined with damage that is hard to distinguish from the melee damage log of a mystic. Supposedly higher level cubics fire more, but I have been unable to notice a difference between the cubics I have at 56 and those I had at 40, and they're high fire rate - they should be going off every hit by now if the fire rate incrased.
That's one extra mystic melee swing every 20 seconds - no more impressive than the supposedly ubar summoner nukes of C3.
Oh, this is not with one part of the duo eliminated - it's just the SK vs. the MP pool of a summoner who's not in robes (as most aren't still for some reason). The SK will last longer until he has to UD, and of course the servitor becomes instantly actually more gimp at nuking than the SK too.
PS: Capability to outlast and outdamage in mass PvP does not equal ability to beat on 1v1 PvP. I'm not sure about Hinde, but on Devianne people chug a GCPP whenever it becomes available once they start getting hit, that's not a luxury the servitor has - and it actually, in fact, is nigh enough to negate one of the best summoner selling points.
Summoners are certainly not 100% worthless classes in group PvP (not like a pre-shield-thingie TK), but saying they're up there in usefulness with a proper DD or support class if they're not buff-[censored] is silly.
Of course, ESs for one are looking like they will be one of the most valueable supporters for ranged classes come C5, but who knows.
Cubics have a fixed max rate of fire, it will go off on your attack. If your a fast attacker its more likely you will get to let it attack when its "ready" after the cooldown, thats all. A dagger or tyrant would hardly influence it if you understand above fact. Thats why it works on archer just as good. All this isn't true for the healcubic of course, since its a passive cubic and heals whenever someone is low on HP.
I have to agree, I don't find an SKs cubics firing that often, but summon a mass cubic over a tyrant and it seems like they fire frequently. I'm not sure if "fixed rate" is correct.
Sunspark explained it quite well, cubics have a bit of a cooldown after they attack (i've never seen one of my cubics fire two hits in a row), however, with the daggers and tyrants, their higher attack speed just allows them to trigger it way closer to the end of the cooldown compared to archers who have a slow attack speed and have to wait a little bit between attacks, so they may hit once just before it's ready, then end up kiting for a few more seconds before attacking again which may trigger the cubic.
Well the real point now is.. with no word from NCsoft conserning any of our complaints about ALL of the summoner nerfs.. is: YOU WILL SEE LESS SUMMONERS ON YOUR SERVERS. Since quite a few of us are parking ours, and some have even deleted theres. And most of the ones you will see will likely be "buff bots" or summoners still in denial of the nerfs. Active summoners were rare.. Now most will be invisible..
Sunspark explained it quite well, cubics have a bit of a cooldown after they attack (i've never seen one of my cubics fire two hits in a row), however, with the daggers and tyrants, their higher attack speed just allows them to trigger it way closer to the end of the cooldown compared to archers who have a slow attack speed and have to wait a little bit between attacks, so they may hit once just before it's ready, then end up kiting for a few more seconds before attacking again which may trigger the cubic.
No, you don't have to commit an attack to trigger the cubics. They're based off battle stance. Being hit or hitting someone gives the cubic a chance to go off. Ranged fighters like archers trigger often because they are almost always shooting/being hit. One atk every 15 seconds gives cubics more than enough time to trigger. However, in parties, it does seem like the mass cubics over tyrants trigger quite often. More often than others. Attk speed may have some effect on the cubic timing...or it's just circumstantial.
O_o I've never seen one of my cubics fire from me getting hit (phantom/spark), and in 1v1's if the guy's hitting me I'll spend as much time as possible just battle-healing myself.
A cubic will not fire if you are not actively using an aggressive action, with the notable exception of the life cubic.
I will be glad to tape of a replay of myself standin in battle stance for 15 minutes without the aqua cubic going off once if you don't believe this. It's not obvious to a non-summoner, but to me who is used to being only a healer (no point for me to attack when doing AoE with my pony), I can tell quite clearly that unless I'm doing something, battle stance or no, the cubic will not trigger.
For that matter, it's possible to set off a cubic without entering battle stance.
This is just as bogus as the claim of the ubar nuke damage from servitors in C3.
Hmm I've definately played with an SK's cubics and been attacked by them quite some time after their last attack just because we kept beating on eachother with fists. No tests, no certainty whatsoever, just discussing observations.
just because we kept beating on eachother with fists.
Uhm, beating someone with a fist is not "not doing anything".
The cubic takes a while to trigger - a cubic user will be able to tell when it starts firing by a shift in the way it glows: It trembles a little, glows slightly brighter, and then it fires (takes about 3 to 4 seconds), so what might have looked to you not to have been triggered by a slap most certainly was.
Arg. One last time, we playfully smacked eachother a bit. I kept hitting him for quite some time (this would be after he'd quit swingin) and the cubics went off to debuff away. You may need to have the player targetted, have started hitting, who knows, but I've definately observed cubics firing defensively in the past. I was still purple and he was white. Been a long time though, C1 or C2 days.
Hmm, you getting hit might work as a trigger. But just being in battle mode is 100% not sufficient. I've accidentally popped enough aqua cubics that then turned out not to fire even once during AoEing.
Yeah, and I've never played a cubic class where I actually use them. I'm merely suggesting there may be more to it than meets the eye. If you mass cubic in a party with one of the fast attk speed players, everyone is always swinging while you exp, but **** it sure seems like those fast atk speed classes have them fire more often.
I don't think this just affects normal summoners hehe. There won't be a point to even try to waste C crystals to summon my panther anymore.
1. I can't buff it so patk stays ratherly low
2. Takes like 40 seconds to summon
3. Will do who knows how much % less damage to pvp
4. Can't heal it, so people will know how much HP it has left before it dies.
5. Waste of mana which I think could now better be used for stun.
So yup, Pantherless DA LFG :) lol. hmm.. i wonder if i could ask for that aoe root thing, that will be pretty cool i think.
Try manaburn instead (you don't play on my server, right?).
Manaburn. If the summoner doesn't flag, no MP to heal the pet = dead (400 PDef does not a level-60-area tank make). If the summoner DOES flag, erase and laugh as they get pummeled to death.
For good measure, bring a few aggro mobs that only got run-by aggro on you: They will jump onto the servitor, as it's part of their intended design that they take all run-by hate over players (or so support told me).
Technically it does zero hp damage. If you can't pk with a skill you generally can't use it to flag. It has to at least do damage to hp/cp (even if that is zero). But again, never tried or don't recall the results.
Hell.... I love training bots.. thats getting nerfed on my summoner in C5, which is why I made my TH <grins> I just cant help it.. it is an addiction... <taps his wrist>.. "I must train illeagal automations to improve gameplay for others" .. Besides.. it is fun!
The principle might be: "Do not profit from bots."
I know people who refuse to seed off them for this very reason.
That's absurdly improbable. It would require absolutely no contact with the market or trading.
It's unattainable (guess who should i thank for their iNCompeteNCe), but can be strived to.
Why should i train bots? To harm them?
Why should i [try to] harm bots? To improve server situation in general?
But it's not me who's ruining it. I might suffer, but i'm nonfactor and don't buy adena, so i'm always going to be behind the majority of new school pwners. I'd rather watch those bots run more and more rampant, so that they trample the fun parts of the game for those who feed them.
Nonthless.. about all this bot training fun aside ( I think of it more as a sport I enjoy.. ).. back to topic...
The hit points and level of summons seriously should not be happening here. Those are the worst two things in my opinion comming for summoners in C5. And by the games own "fairness" ruleset it does not make any logical sense either. It totaly throws out PVP fairness for open PVP. When one can see a summons level, they can easly determine the summoners level unless they are incredibly stupid. I am not saying some players don't fit that discription mind you, but still.. can anyone at NCsoft give us a logical explanation of why they are doing this?
Again, a player cannot walk around with an A grade weapon and fake what his level is. A player in D grade also isn't much for pking anything but low levels. The summon's level viewable is no different from viewing the gear a player is wearing. It's hp should not be viewable unless everyone's hp is viewable...a change that ought be implemented anyways.
The hit points and level of summons seriously should not be happening here. Those are the worst two things in my opinion comming for summoners in C5. And by the games own "fairness" ruleset it does not make any logical sense either. It totaly throws out PVP fairness for open PVP. When one can see a summons level, they can easly determine the summoners level unless they are incredibly stupid. I am not saying some players don't fit that discription mind you, but still.. can anyone at NCsoft give us a logical explanation of why they are doing this?
As I kinda stated in another thread, this was done because of 1) Being fair in the Olympiad (players hp are viewable), and 2) stupid/lazy programmers.
Why bother programming a summons hp/level being viewable only in the Olympiad, when you can just turn them into a mob and leave it at that.
Not entirely true; you can ignore a lvl 62 summon, but your gonna have to kill a lvl 80 summon asap. S grade summoners can buff CoV, Emp3 and PoW on their summons, they hurt.
They do hurt, in a way, but they still have to deal with the gimpy cast speed (nowhere near a nuker's for lack of acumen weapon/robes/wit tats) and reuse delay (which might be shortened, but which group would take two ESs?).
Again, a player cannot walk around with an A grade weapon and fake what his level is. A player in D grade also isn't much for pking anything but low levels. The summon's level viewable is no different from viewing the gear a player is wearing. It's hp should not be viewable unless everyone's hp is viewable...a change that ought be implemented anyways.
If a nuker has DC and bright-blue homu sword, is he 61 or 78?
Rhethorical question.
Again, a player cannot walk around with an A grade weapon and fake what his level is. A player in D grade also isn't much for pking anything but low levels. The summon's level viewable is no different from viewing the gear a player is wearing. It's hp should not be viewable unless everyone's hp is viewable...a change that ought be implemented anyways.
If a nuker has DC and bright-blue homu sword, is he 61 or 78?
Rhethorical question.
I remember an RG worker in Avadon / Homu (non OEed) hitting me 2 times for 2.5k almost instantly. I was like "wf?".. then I saw the Vortex word in my dmg log. :)
Again, a player cannot walk around with an A grade weapon and fake what his level is. A player in D grade also isn't much for pking anything but low levels. The summon's level viewable is no different from viewing the gear a player is wearing. It's hp should not be viewable unless everyone's hp is viewable...a change that ought be implemented anyways.
<-- likes to wear C grade of B grade in arena and have panther kill noobs :) Now i won't be able to trick them :(
The griefer can take a chance with it - and of course, can see me sitting/standing.
I'm not sure what you mean by being afraid to drop stuff in PvE - I'll be carrying a BSoE for emergencies come C5, right now I only die while I'm not two-boxing, freezing up and making mistakes due to adjusting to a new hunting spot.
Well, first let me reply to this...if you two box, I assume one of them is a healer class? If someone is griefing your summon or you pull too much aggro, smack your two box healer and erase your summon...no more aggro. You may die in PvP but no drops that way.
As to the whole seeing the summon's HP crap....This is completely lazy programming. If they wanted to do it right, the HP/status of the summon should be available only to the summoner and anyone they are partied with. I say partied with because at least for DAs this would be a great bonus cause the party healers would be able to know when to heal their panther.
As for the Olympiad, if you can see your opponents CP/HP, then in that instance, yes, the summon's HP should be visible.
As for SK's beating a summoner...according to the new RPS that should NOT happen. The other part of the RPS already works, prophet should be able to kill a summoner and yes, I've done it on mine. And the summoner was buffed, by me. Root the summon, kill the summoner. Works great. At least it did on a PS. I don't know about those mage ponies...would have to check that out. And the PS was 2 levels higher than my prophet at the time.
root SHOULDN'T work on a summoner via servitor blessing but healers are still increadibly hard for us to beat. Unless an SK is 5 levels higher or you don't have a pet out a tank should not beat a summoner. High HP and low damage output is the basis for tanks. Summoners are very much designed to kill this sort of enemy and we excel at it.
Well, first let me reply to this...if you two box, I assume one of them is a healer class? If someone is griefing your summon or you pull too much aggro, smack your two box healer and erase your summon...no more aggro. You may die in PvP but no drops that way.
This sounds ohsosmart until you realise that for that A) I have to flag (healer down) and B) I will suddenly have 4, 8 or 12 mobs ******* the summoner - without a healer! That sounds like such a great idea, huh?
And sorry, but "root the summon" is a pure pre-62 thing. Or pre-60? Summoners get servitor blessing, which instantly (and at a large range at that) cures Root, Slow and Paralysis on their servitors.
And sorry, but "root the summon" is a pure pre-62 thing. Or pre-60? Summoners get servitor blessing, which instantly (and at a large range at that) cures Root, Slow and Paralysis on their servitors.
It's 62 that we get that skill..
But the point is.. if others can see our summons level and hit points.. we should be able to see there's.