Mods, please hold off the lock/delete hammer; I don't intend to demand my clanmate's account be restored or ask for information about the ban. I'll leave that between him and support. I won't even mention the character name! :)
My concern is that in this case the reason given to the player was "use of an exploit". He insists he has not done anything that could be considered an exploit, and that support won't provide details, but as I said that's between him and support.
What worries me is that I'm not aware of any exploits currently deemed as bannable offenses. It's entirely possible that I could do something which NCSoft considers a bannable exploit without even knowing about it. For instance, servitors can attack outside town while the summoner is in town. Is that an exploit? Is it bannable? It's easy to do by accident so I _hope_ it's not bannable.
Is there a list of bannable exploits somewhere? I realize there may be a concern with listing exploits and spreading the information, but I believe the right of the player to know what is considered an exploit is paramount. We have far too much invested in our characters to 'hope for the best'.
Training mobs into town to kill AFK shops is bannable. I think littering the ground inside a castle before a siege is bannabe. Too late in the day to think of any others...
"Perching" is also bannable, as defined as being in a location where you are able to attack mobs but they are unable, due to a terrain or pathing bug, to reach you to attack you back.
Causing the death of anyone in a peace zone is bannable, as SirE mentioned... though I don't believe that it applies only to shops.
As far as an inclusive list goes, though, I don't know if there is such a list or not. I want to say that there is, but I could be thinking of the website for my alt-MMO I'm playing these days...
"Perching" is also bannable, as defined as being in a location where you are able to attack mobs but they are unable, due to a terrain or pathing bug, to reach you to attack you back.
Agree. It is very stupid that you can get banned for doing something that you dont have a clue about being an exploit becous they wont say what things are considered an exploit.
in EG if you cast a spell from behind the fences at like a strain and they have to run around the fence... is that considered perching? i mean i guess it would fall under the path obstruction.. x/
One exploit where i've seen so many people/namely farmers which bypass all game restrictions and rules is using servistos/summons to force themselves through doors in which are not saposed to be able to pass at all..
Naming Zaken's door, when a they make it through, they can draw zakens agro and then zaken will port them into the area, OR somehow manage to pull zaken out of the ship.
They are now constantly doing it on the seighardt server, and i doubt that it's not happening on others.
I'm not even sure if that's labelled an exploit, which is another odd thing - things that are so obviously exploits (big boom, pet trick for RBs) are left as "normal gameplay" until they are actually fixed server-side - without ever mentioning that it being otherwise was a bug.
in EG if you cast a spell from behind the fences at like a strain and they have to run around the fence... is that considered perching? i mean i guess it would fall under the path obstruction.. x/
I don't think so. I call it good tactics. Besides, now if mobs get stuck, the just teleport to you.
I think training guards onto red players, in clan halls, is considered an exploit.
They are capable of smacking you. But there is a consistent method for catching them so
1) (best case scenario) 1 or 2 mobs hit you, 7-8 are stuck doing nothing but getting smacked,
2) It all goes to pot and everything piles in on you and you get smacked,
3) In some rare cases, nothing has been able to touch me, and I am become Death.
If a strict interpretation of perching is applied, I'm using scenery to stop mobs from a) reaching me and b) hitting me, even if 1 or 2 (or 4) slip through.
Depends if the GM wants to be a jackrearend though.
They are capable of smacking you. But there is a consistent method for catching them so
1) (best case scenario) 1 or 2 mobs hit you, 7-8 are stuck doing nothing but getting smacked,
2) It all goes to pot and everything piles in on you and you get smacked,
3) In some rare cases, nothing has been able to touch me, and I am become Death.
If a strict interpretation of perching is applied, I'm using scenery to stop mobs from a) reaching me and b) hitting me, even if 1 or 2 (or 4) slip through.
Depends if the GM wants to be a jackrearend though.
So you're comfortable with what you're doing? You don't see any problem with it?
I don't think perching is really possible any more since mobs can teleport to you if they can't reach you. People use to perch in the boss room in SoDA and trap a big group of mobs, and kill them at a distance. The mobs could never, ever reach the player. That's perching.
Making strains run around the fence is a good tactic, but they COULD possibly reach you.
I see lots of farmers doing the pet exp exploit to PL people in Cruma, i could have sworn that was "illegal". There is no official list that I know of though.
what about the LOS exploit (at least thats what i call it). on a ranged mob, you hide behind a tree or other obstacle, within the mobs range but out of sight, so it doesnt hit you, but nor can you hit it. this gives you time to drink a health potion, relax, activate skills, switch weapons, and pm a few people, before getting back to the mob. is this tactics or exploit?
I've done this latter. But then, I was playing an archer, so it was standard arching tactics. Especially when said mob charged around the tree and thrashed me.
Anyway, if you "hide" from semi-nuking mobs such as the salamanders in FT, they run up to you instead of using their very damaging DoTs and start meleeing - exploit or smart gameplay? I was comfortable with it until I heard it might not be allowed.
Depends on your definition of exploit. Most would have considered the pet raid boss tanking an exploit, but NCSoft didn't think so and didn't ban anyone. For some time, the dropping adena at sieges was not an exploit according to NCSoft and not bannable. But some of us would consider that an exploit as well.
I think training guards onto red players, in clan halls, is considered an exploit.
I don't see how this is an exploit. The guards are designed to attack red players as a priority for a reason. If you go red you know the danger and should accept the consequences. There should be no safe haven in town, clan hall or not.
in EG if you cast a spell from behind the fences at like a strain and they have to run around the fence... is that considered perching? i mean i guess it would fall under the path obstruction.. x/
I don't think so. I call it good tactics. Besides, now if mobs get stuck, the just teleport to you.
I think training guards onto red players, in clan halls, is considered an exploit.
I had that happen to me, then I teleported and logged off my char, and then I get the msg that "I force log"
Id like to have an official statement about "banned for exploit" - imho there shouldn't be anything what's possible a reason to ban somebody. Mobs sometimes just staying around when you spank it - doing nothing, but on the other hand some mobs don't loosing HP although my dot-attack was sucessful. Some mobs are more "interlligent" than others - they find a way to you, even if you are on a rock or smth. I get killed because of lags or because next attack should come automatically, but it does not ...a.s.o
Imho to find myself the best way to kill a mob is that waht I love in a game like this, it's to find a kind of tactic and strategie. I try to find the best tactic to avoid as many hits I can. If the game or world of aden allows me to hit a mob without beeing hit, then should the devs do a job on this, if they think its not fair - but of course not ban a player for it.
btw an OL can use a skill which roots many mobs at once - if he got a pole and doing one step away from the rooted mobs, he can hit the mobs without beeing hit. This shouldn't be an exploit because it's a very dangerous job - the root can fail on some mobs, or some mobs aren't in range of the pole when rooted - its just fair - the OL has to find a good tactic to do it - sometimes it fails and then he dies and not the mobs... a.s.o.
Hmmm speaking of exploits, on the pts last weekend, I was watching the seige in Dion and noticed these things happening, gaurds shooting thru doors and from on top of walls (where only superman could get to him(but he's not in this game)) the latter is kinda gray but closed doors? no one got close enough to the doors so don't know if they were 2 way or one way. I guess if you make them you can use them(NC).
I think training guards onto red players, in clan halls, is considered an exploit.
I don't see how this is an exploit. The guards are designed to attack red players as a priority for a reason. If you go red you know the danger and should accept the consequences. There should be no safe haven in town, clan hall or not.
Actually I stated it wrong (and no, I wasn't drunk).
Someone did this to a person who was shut up in their clan hall. The red died and dropped gear (the guard "warped" through the closed door). The person used an exploit to get into the clan hall and retrieve the gear. My bad, sorry.
So you're comfortable with what you're doing? You don't see any problem with it?
Smart use of terrain is part of any tactical approach to a situation.
No, I don't see any problem with the use of tactics. After all, I'm playing a game with tactical elements, not just shuffling data around a database.
See, this is where you and I differ. I would never partake in using exploits to PL myself or someone else. I would never partake of using techniques to game EXP where I had no danger to myself. That's just me.
Smart use of terrain is part of any tactical approach to a situation.
No, I don't see any problem with the use of tactics. After all, I'm playing a game with tactical elements, not just shuffling data around a database.
See, this is where you and I differ. I would never partake in using exploits to PL myself or someone else. I would never partake of using techniques to game EXP where I had no danger to myself. That's just me.
First, I'm not talking about powerlevelling. In fact, I don't care about levelling at all, just about the tactical challenge.
Second, I see terrain as just one of the things that I can use to my advantage and which can be used to my disadvantage, on the same level as buffs, abilities, pots, equipment and my team if I'm not soloing. I don't cheat, but I won't hold back on any tactical advantage just to make things more dangerous to me - all's fair in love and war. :)
If that's not how the game is intended to be played .. why have a 3D terrain at all?
I would never partake of using techniques to game EXP where I had no danger to myself. That's just me.
To me that's not a fair definition. What about an SE fighting greens using root and a pole/bow? Sure, root can fail but with bsps, empower, good weapon, against greens you're talking 1/100 at most.
The various responses to this thread further illustrate the need for an official list of exploits, ideally with their associated punishment. At a minimum, exploits which can result in immediate permanent ban without warning should be seperately listed.
Today's situation is akin to highway patrol removing all posted speed limits yet enforcing them anyways. Oh, and the fine may include a death sentence! :O Sure, we could all walk to work, but isn't it easier and more fair to make the rules known?
I would never partake of using techniques to game EXP where I had no danger to myself. That's just me.
To me that's not a fair definition. What about an SE fighting greens using root and a pole/bow? Sure, root can fail but with bsps, empower, good weapon, against greens you're talking 1/100 at most.
Hardly the same. No danger /= little danger.
But, if people want to play like chicken [censored], they can, I guess.
To be "banned" straight out for an exploit, it has to be pretty bad. Things like dropping items in a siege and line of sight stuff will get most a 3 day rest. It really depends on the use. In the end, it is a design issue that needs to be fixed and will not end the world.
There are other 'sploits out there that can be much worse and if a "friend" is banned straight out and is only given the "you were banned for exploiting," they did something that is really bad.
The reason the exploit is not mentioned in any support ticket is that support tickets have a habit of floating around, and we are not in the business of giving credit to people that exploit our game. No one will ever say "Hey, look I did do it! NC said so."
There are other 'sploits out there that can be much worse and if a "friend" is banned straight out and is only given the "you were banned for exploiting," they did something that is really bad.
Agreed, it must have been pretty bad. However, my concern is that I don't know what is considered "really bad". Clearly not the examples that you and others have listed. So, what is bad enough to earn an instant ban?
HGMspam there are some points that are not still clear:
1) This friend didnt got any mail, he got banned and just after 2-3 mails he knew he has been banned.
2) This friend dont know what kind of exploit, and maybe he never did.
3) Are your procedures 100% free from errors or can u do from time to time a mistake? Can his ban been revised?
Anyhow I agree to have a list of exploits thata can cause you a ban.
Not really ... It kind of makes my blood run cold to think about it. It just makes it seem that NC Soft keeps a way to ban people without needing to explain themselves for such a reason that "we don’t want to give credit". How discouraging do you think it is for people who have played for over 2 years in a game to think that by accident or slip of a key a GM could ban you and any email you send is replied to with "you exploited, we wont tell you what we think you done but you did it because our GMs are infallible of course" and then after a couple of emails rebuffed in a similar way that player is now simply ignored by the GMs when he sends an email.
You will say that you GMs can't possibly make the mistake of banning an innocent person, but alot of us know and have seen differently in previous cases.
*of course now im scared that some gm will be annoyed at me and wipe all the work i have done on my account just for posting this*
The question remains, what is "really bad"? Is it possible to do something "really bad" if you're just using an unmodified client? The things you list as not "really bad" are things that can be done with an unmodified client after all. Or are there things that can be done with an unmodified client that are considered "really bad"?
I still disagree with the reason not to tell people why they are banned just because you're afraid of them bragging about it? Seems odd given that, well, you've just banned them, so its not like they succeeded or anything. I mean, how much credit do you think they'll get for failing? Instead, there are cases on Lionna where people invested over a year into a character only to have it banned without explanation, and then having their support ticket closed so they can't respond further. Let me suggest that the email saying, "we won't respond further to this issue" (which, as you said, does get passed around the internet) does much more damage to your reputation than an email saying, "you were banned for hunting in Apostate for 7 weeks without ever taking a break" would.
NA NCsoft doesn't have a development team really. (so i understand). [aka, this means that if an exploit is found, a patch can't be made up instantly, and if an exploit is found to be pretty hard to fix with a simple patch, it's most likely put off as being patched up in the next expansion or major release AKA a C release for example C5 soon)
Furthermore, The NA vs KR versions do have slight differences that may make a exploit not work on the KR release vs working on the NA release. And vice versa.
Reguardless heres the dilema:
In the case of a GM or HGM finding out that a player has found an exploit, reguardless of how insignificant or major derastic it may be, they cannot really ever inform a user reguardless of there status (you'd have to be within ncsoft staff listing to even be aware of it, and even then i beleive that most of the major stuff is tried to be kept lipped for security purposes), they aren't going to tell you what or how it's down. Not even a brief discription.
Why?
Because there are, and always will be those few out there that will use one suttle hint to find the exploit and use it to there advantages as long as they can for whatever benifits they can get out of it, with no worries of being banned because frankly they don't care, and some people have money to blow just to do it.
Plus, once they find out about an exploit, they inform others that wouldn't have taken the time to figure it out how to do it.
From there it spider webs up a huge nasty picture of people figuring it's a neato trick in the game to full on tricks and hints and little gimmicks that may or may not have been really ment to be in there in the first place. Before you know it, people don't understand why they are getting banned, mass bannings are happening, a huge pile of gms are needed to confront the wave of extra work they just created for themselves for what?
To tell someone that apparently broke the rules to the detail of what they did durring the exploiting in which the person leaked to other sources.
Frankly i can understand ncsoft position. I may not like it, but it's a logical one.
NOW, in the course of for example, the C5 launching, and exploits found previously and now fixed in this launch, they could list the exploits used and draw up a picture of what they WERE but not don't have to look into regularly.
This would both give some of the people an idea of what they were previously banned for, not to mention other people that aren't or were never aware of the exploits, a reason why perhaps strange things were happening at different times if they were in the area at the time.
But in the end NCSoft has the final decision, they don't have to, and don't realy need to tell anyone what exploits excist, and the less people know about them, the better.
Yeah but they are banning someone for supposedly explointing. Exploiting to me is where you know you are doing something wrong but do it anyway, otherwise its a bug in the game. So if an exploiter knows they are exploiting then of course they know how they did it so they could just write it down for someone else to read on a forum? That being said then why would NC not say anything in the email ? for fear they save the exploiter a little work by writing down the instructions to what they did to exploit?
PvrJudas you speak like a exploiter would not write down the instructions to do the exploit or that they would not spread it around to other people without NC's help by emailing them an explanation to what am account was banned for.
Not to mention that anything said in NC's emails does not really need to be step by step instructions on how they did the exploit. they could say "According to server logs on 15/08/06 your character was observed using a known exploit to duplicate items, your account has been terminated."
At the moment all they say is "This mail is to notify you that your account ****** was found violating the User Agreement and/or Rules of Conduct by participating in the use of an exploit." and now think of what a nice email this would be to get if you were banned unjustly by a GM and any other email by yourself to get your account back was met by silence as NC ignore your mails or prewritten mails saying the same thing over and over again still leaving you wondering why you spent the last 2 1/2 years paying a subscription for this game.
Exploiters that find it themselves tend to keep it to themselves or to only let a few people know of it. nothing more.
However although yes, i see what you mean, i wouldn't mind even a little brief discription of the reason i may have been banned due to an exploit.
But there are bugs in the games, and then there are full blown exploits that people become aware of that give you ungodly abilities or outright power in the game that you shouldn't have.
Play other games such as say unreal tournament or quake or any game for that matter that is multiplayer, when it comes to an exploit being found, general rule is that if it's done once, twice or 3 times sure no problems...... but purposely doing it several times knowing full well you've found a secret, specially taking advantage of it at any second you get, most people will frown apon.
I've found an exploit, shown it to a few friends, and then let them figure out how to mimic it, then we always all agree to NEVER use it, cause we know if they do, we'll find out, and they'll be instantly disqualified.
It's cheating .. plain and simple.
It's no different then someone punching in /godmode or /summon "item" or whatever cheat codes you can think of.
There are other 'sploits out there that can be much worse and if a "friend" is banned straight out and is only given the "you were banned for exploiting," they did something that is really bad. .
Thanks
~spam
Hmmm are 3rd party programs a exploit cause the program don't catch them?
I'm not pointing fingers or anything, and I hardly know the entire story. I think however that even if a person were to abuse a major exploit that could get them banned, and knew it, it wouldn't be too far fetched to pretend that you didn't know. Like when I get pulled over for speeding, "I'm sorry officer I didn't know the speed limit was 45 mph." It hasn't worked for me once.
I share concern for the clanmate who's account has been banned, but I don't want to sidetrack this thread. Support will not discuss specific cases here. It would likely solve headaches for everyone if GMs would give a brief description of the exploit in the ban email, so I hope that policy is reconsidered.
The main focus for this thread is in avoiding getting banned in the first place, hopefully by getting an official list of exploits deemed instantly bannable. Specific instructions are not required. Just enough information so we can avoid the scariest of GM actions, the instant, permanent ban.
An example - it seems to be possible (I can't tell for sure) to duplicate your toon, at least I've heard three independent reports of it, on accident. I'm sure if at least one of the persons performing this "exploit" had done it intentionally, she would not have sent a petition asking for her double to be removed. One of the players claims (who knows?) to have been banned for this although she did no ill - and while it's easy to say "it's impossible," it might very well not actually be.
The thought of not getting in one day and not knowing what I even did wrong sort of disgruntles me.
Like when I get pulled over for speeding, "I'm sorry officer I didn't know the speed limit was 45 mph." It hasn't worked for me once.
this has worked for me on no less than 5 occassions. its all in how you say it ^^ and it helps if you ask them what colour the vehicle registration is. also, from what sarge said, if the LOS exploit gets you banned for 3 days, will i get banned for telling people how to do it? >.< or, since its "basic archering tactics" can we just ban all archers for 3 days? just to be clear, i used to do this all the time, until i read the EULA the second time (this is hard through the client because it will time out and disconnect you) and i noticed it in there.
The problem is if you dont know the reason of the ban, you got no mail and you cant neither ask why.
An example - it seems to be possible (I can't tell for sure) to duplicate your toon, at least I've heard three independent reports of it, on accident. I'm sure if at least one of the persons performing this "exploit" had done it intentionally, she would not have sent a petition asking for her double to be removed. One of the players claims (who knows?) to have been banned for this although she did no ill - and while it's easy to say "it's impossible," it might very well not actually be.
The thought of not getting in one day and not knowing what I even did wrong sort of disgruntles me.
That was actually possiible a long time ago, I even got to see it myself a couple of times. Each time that happened the GM's anounced a server reboot.
I can think of three things that would get you an insta-ban if attempted.
1) Trying an [923] injection. This one has brought the PTS down twice, and won't work on the live server anyway.
2) Attemping to dupticate an item. This one had been announced in the forums and in game once a long time ago.
3) Attemping to mess-with/kill PC shops setup in a safe zone. We got login messages not to do this atleast two different times.