Can someone help me a bit, was "Aaron Roxby" the orignal producer for Lineage][ before Adam took over? I have been here from the begining and being the old timer I am, my memory stinks. The name rings a bell, but the first producer never said anything on the boards like Adam does so I never got to know the first producer very well....
If he was or was not there is a really neat article that he wrote, and Lineage][ is part of the article. Good read in my book.
Interesting article though I disagree with what he is saying, sounds to me like he wants to transform MMORPGs into MMOFPS, no thanks.
Progress Quest sounds like an interesting game though, not to mention an even more interesting glimpse into the human mind.
He makes a few fair points, but he just talks around and states a few obvious things a lot. We all know that MMORPGs need better, more fun battle systems; that longer, more complex battles with fewer mobs are more fun - and that good games are more expensive to produce than bad games like L2, and bad games still get played.
And who'd wanna make a good game if the money comes in with a bad one and people actually enjoy them?
Well I don't like how he thinks that games like L2 will be phased out. And that there is no room for grind, lvl based games in the fututre. I think there is room for all types of games.
However, I couldn't agree with him more about the actual need for a skill based MMO. L2 was my first MMO. My addictions before L2 consisted of fighting games, and although I generaly dislike FPS, I was a hardcore tribes player. Coming to a PvP game like L2, I noticed something right away. Skill counts for almost nothing. Depending on what class you are, skill may count for something. But as FoTM clearly shows, its more a matter of class, and gear, and how much extra cash you have to buy extra weapons, tats, OEd stuff, boss jewelry, etc etc. This is not necessarily a bad thing. I do enjoy trying to develop my character, making him better, crafting his gear, lvling, etc. But really there is not a lot of wiggle room in developing skillz.
Once you have learned how to play your character pretty well, there is not much room for improvement. If you lose to a certain class 90% of the time, you will always lose close to 90% of the time no matter how much you practice PvPing. However, group and mass PvP do leave more room for advancement. But I would love a system where my actually dedication to my characetr paid off.
Ever since I played MMOs, and actually even when I played regular RPGs. I imagined a melding of fighting games and RPGs. (For anyone that played shenmue, that headed in the right direction, but didn't utalize the fighting system very much) I always imagined a basic RPG where you fight monsters in a similar way to how you fight opponents in a fighting game. Fast, action oriented, and damanding of actual skill. A system where you actually physicly improve. Not just genericly get upgraded the longer you play.
I would love to see an MMO do this. No I don't want a repackaged FPS, I don't even want a repackaged fighting game. I think there can be something that takes an MMORPG and everything we love about them, and simply make them more skill based/action oriented and less grind based. Grind, and gear based systems just make botters and Ebayers thrive anyway.
The names are to close, and that’s why they rang the bell.... hehe two letter difference I guess....
Its a good article none the less as it points out people love to see progress in something they undertake no matter the amount of work involved.
That’s why this game can be a drag at very high levels as the progress can be very very slow.
Would be an interesting concept if a MMO had an open ended progression scale. Example in terms of Lineage][ it would be like having level infinity but everyone would gain levels as if they were always level 5. Just something to think about and how people derive accomplishment from MMO's
The leveling curve is been used in all RPGs for few reasons, making it almost necesary.
I believe one of the most important of those reasons is the fact that it helps bring the casual and hardcore gamers together in level where they can still function together yet still giving an advantage to the hardcore gamer for the extra time she put on the game.
A clear example of this occurs at "end game" levels of L2, where leveling is so hard that it gives casuals more time to catch up.
If you eliminate the curve, hardcore gamers will leave even the dedicated casuals behind by an awful lot, in that process eliminating the fun for everyone but those with the highest time comitment.
Another important function of the curve is to add longevity to the game. Its very hard to add meaningful new content like high level skills, areas with new mobs that arent just clones, even new equipment that looks differently. If you have unlimited levels you would need unlimited content, which is basically impossible to generate if any sort of uniqueness and flair is to be preserved.
Longevity is important for a MMORPG, we expect to be playing this games for years, even if we invest 8+ hours a day on them.
There is aso the fact that level caps give us goals. How long have we dreamed of being 75?
I know for a long time that was my goal and in part what kept me going, the thought that I was so close to the end.
Sure, we set milestones along the way, be it crafting a certain weapon, achieving a certain level to get a certain skill or grade mastery along the way, this helps us break the grind into more comfortable segments to achieve our goals. Those milestones are simply steps we take towards that end goal however.
I think the problem with his article is he is asking himself the wrong questions, the problem isnt "why do we have to grind?" is "why is grinding boring and how can we fix that?"
I think MMORPGs are evolving, anyone who played the upcoming korean games can tell you that, but thats another topic for another day, as the grind calls and 78 looks ohhh so close ;)
It is true that TIME = POWER in most if not all MMO's and to a degree FPS's.
There are two main ways to "level up" one can be economically and the other is the more common XP grind to gain skills/powers to use. Lineage][ has a combination of both. Now if we take out EULA breaking means, this game takes a lot of time and smarts to do well in both.
One type of progression that is in lines with this article is offline leveling. EVE online has this type of progression. Your toon “levels up” with or with out you online. Now this brings up the fact that its tied to how long you have been playing the game or have an active account with the game. This would even out hard core gamers and Casual gamers, but leaves new players at a disadvantage. Now there are ways around the new player disadvantage so I am not to concerned.
It is correct to say people like progression of their “toon” but you can also add people like to see goals/accomplishments as well.
It will be cool to see were the games of the future go.
Future of "Korean Grinders" is bleak in NA. Read a few reviews....i bet you will find "this is just another Korean Grindfest". Read more and you will find it more.
Ultima Online is 10 years old and counting. Reason being is there is more to offer than just graphics. Compare NA numbers of L2 excluding bots and compare a 10 year old UO and tell me what is failing in NA.
It's just a different segment. L2 has very devoted gamers...they even keep posting after they quit *glare* The game is beautiful and dynamic, just slow and long. For some patient players, that allows you to evolve into a toon yourself. Every tank, every dagger has their own playstyle. You can play for 2 years and not be to the point of "bored pvp."
While Counter Strike may market to a 10 yo kid looking for a quick fix, this game markets towards a different crowd. It's not for everyone, but it certainly isn't losing money.
I personally like some of the gameplay elements that games like Guild Wars have added. Heck, if GW had a real persistant world I would be there.
I also wouldn't mind a pvp system that was a bit more FPS. Having said that, I MORE than understand why someone wouldn't want that. Especially with 16 year old (or 21 year old who hasn't emotionally gotten past 16) "123B1o0DK1LL321" talking smack and moving on to his next target while I lie " dead" and realize that my 39 year old butt hurts.
I also think that players need some sense of progression or reward. This is not to say that I hate the long grind in L2. I don't. But I do feel that while I am getting to lvl "whatever it is" I want to be doing something that is fun.
That is why I hate what they did to the noob experience. It's almost like they said "1-20 is a waste, let's rush players past it and get them to the good stuff".
What about making it so that the gameplay experience is interesting (but maybe different?) 1-20. Make it so that one can do something fun and engaging at any point in their gaming life.
That is why I'm so dissapointed in fishing and crafting. It just doesn't do it.
It is why I'm really dissapointed in the class transfer quests. I liked the "Ascension" quests in Guild wars, culminating with you fighting your Doppelganger. Sure, it's not perfect but I was into it every step of the way.
It really has to be a balance though. Having a game that is just quests doesn't do it either because the content can't come fast enough. Look at poor D&D online. People grinding quests over and over.
Someone will come up with something. Doesn't have to be groundbreaking, it just has to work and be fun. And maybe give alternate gaming experiences to different segments of the population.
Not everyone is a hardcore PvP'er, not everyone wants to do quests, not everyone has the time to put into a game with family.
I always thought that having different L2 servers, one that catered to different segements of the population but having slightly different gameplay experiences, would "speak to players" in a profound way.
I'm not just saying "raise xp rates" or make pvp consensual. But saying "ok.. this is a hardcore pvp server. cater the world and goals more toward Hardcore PvP players. Open pvp in cities but with a lot of guards and a harsh penalty if you get caught, have bounties on people's heads, etc. Maybe even lvling by pvp.
And then you have your PvE server which doens't have any of that content in the PvP server but has more quests or puzzles.
I don't know if this is at all possible or if it is possible but the costs are too unrealistic. But people are different and require different gameplay. Look at L2. The chasm that separates different types of players is huge. Yet we all come here because of some sort of intangible (or tangible) reasons.
Very interesting post Sov, I agree with a lot of what you have to say.
I believe alternate rules servers are a very simple and cost effective way for a game to reach a much wider audience than it may otherwise have. I think most game designers agree with me simply looking at some of the upcoming games both in NA and Kor, many have alternate rules servers.
Examples: Vangard is supposed to have several type of servers from the starts, particularly PvP and PvE based servers. Shame is an american game and it looks a lot like EQ2 *giggles at your sig*
ZerA, a very nice new game still in beta stage in Korea is already on beta stage offering alternate rules servers, including options to migrate servers as new ones are released. I have played the beta and must say the grind was a lot of fun over there.
I agree lineage 2 is far from perfect and lacking in many areas, I too didnt like class change quests, the 3rd class change quest was so wonderful I actually repressed all the memories to prevent further nightmares, but hey, at least we dont look like we are made out of clay and spend half a day looking for rocks :P
MMOs are trying to evolve, this is clear by the ammount of experimental new gameplay found on new korean games. The fact is koreans are themselves looking for more fun in the grind and a more interesting gameplay than traditional MMOs like L2 have to offer. How good will this new ideas work? well I guess time will tell. I greatly look forwards for the release of ZerA in NA, Granado espada, Rohan, SUN and of course L3.
I really think we can have the best of both worlds. We don't have to give up gear, and skill progression. Heck we don't have to give up grind if we really don't want to.
It would just be nice to have MMOs out there that cater to people who might be more into fighting game dynamics, or maybe FPS.
You fight monsters and players like you fight opponents in soul caliber (for example). The fighting system is in depth and takes time to master. You could still unluck skills as you lvl, you could still upgrade gear. Maybe choosing a lighter faster sword, over a heavy/slow high dmg sword. Your base stats could also still go up as you lvl. It could still be very similar to MMOs we play now, except with a much more refined fighting system.
I don't think it will appeal to everyone, nothing does. But I know I'd love it.
You fight monsters and players like you fight opponents in soul caliber (for example). The fighting system is in depth and takes time to master.
Something like this would be great for 1on1 PVP, but I don't know how feasible it would for PVE or even mass PVP. The reason why the soul calibur system can be so complex is because it's a duel system, where the AI is only concentrating on one fighter. I'm not sure about the latency issues such a fighting system might cause in an online setting, specially during things like sieges.
A complex system would be excellent, but it would require the almost total removal of large scale battles (can't go large scale if you take 10 minutes per battle), and you would need to completely revamp PvE.
I think a more complex but milder system, like that of Tales of Symphonia or Star Ocean: TSS would be a good intermediate step for a grindy game.
The combos on Cabal Online are actually fairly good examples here.
Hmm Im suprised by some of the responses here. Most of you seem unwilling to see a blend of the two mediums.
The fights would not last 10 minutes, unless you design them to last 10 minutes. The fights in L2 could last 20minutes if the designers wanted them to. I agree you would have to change a lot about fighting games to make them work in an MMO, and maybe even tweak MMOs to make them work with the more dynamic fighting system.
Really I think Its the fact that my background is 90% console games. Aside from RPGs Im more accustomed to games that are more based in reflexes, combos, blocks, perrys, just generaly dynamic. I still feel kinda like a noob with the keyboard mouse setup, and I don't think I'd be able to play a fighting game on a computer. So maybe the kind of game I'm invisioning would be best for the new gen consoles.
But none the less, I think there would be a market for such a game.
I dont mind that people who spend hours and hours playing are higher lvl and have better equipment. What I dont like is players higher lvl with better equipment asking me how to craft SS or why does the GK cost so much to teleport.
Of course L2 is only the second online game I have played DiabloII being the first.
Before I played baldursgate series, NWN series, Final Fantiasy series, Dungeon siege, IceWind Dale series, The bards tale series, anyway all these games were fun at the time but were over withing a month and had to find or wait for another to come out. What I did like about these games is I didn't cheat. I started from the beginning and had to go all the way to the end. I could have cheated but what would be the point.
Of the 2 online games I have played cheating has been the norm rather than the exception. I know there are many players out there like me who enjoy earning everything on thier own and developing a character. DiabloII there were alot of ways to develop characters but withing a short time the ultimate classes were discovered and from then on everyone was built the same way with the same equipment. L2 doesn't have anywhere near the the diversity in building a toon and even fewer choices with gear.
One of the things that always atracted me to rpg's was finding loot. Loot in the game is like hitting the jackpot or gambling it give me a rush. This is definatley lacking in L2. The developers are on the right track with the special sword. But I definatley think they should add more items to the game ie armor/weps/accessories. The biggest disappointment is the chance of getting anything while grinding in L2. Everything I have has been bought or crafted. No other game I have ever played, have I had a toon that didn't have anything they got from a mob/treasure box/quest/NPC drop or other player drop.
The pvp in L2 is great, but the comradery with friends and aquantances on line is what keeps most players playing this game. It definatley isn't the thrill of killing that hard mob or getting that awesome drop from a mob that you can use forever.
This is what I will be looking for in the next game I play. But I have a feeling I will be waiting a long time. The reason for this is I will probaly never play another game that isn't online. Would be way to boring staring at a screen with knowone to talk to. But I also want to find a game that will keep me interested and also let me feel the thrill of finding or obtaining nice items or special stuff.
In L2 I look forward to the new chronicles. Not because the new content or pvp or lvl's I havent attained yet. It's because of chaos week. The thrill of stabbing a bunny and it exploding with tuns of loot, or being in the arena with 50 people killing raidbosses as far as you can see untill you cant stand it anymore. It's definatley not for the adena its just for the thrill of the drops.
Anyway just a little background as to what and why I like rpgs.
P.S. yes im and old school bag of dice and scratch paper D&D player. Man I wish we would have had these games when I was younger and had all the time in the world to play these games.