This post will probably last about 10 minutes max however.....
I noticed today 3 different posts containing images of the new Franz server and the already huge problem that has occured with the automated players. There are also several threads which have been locked.
What I don't understand with NC is why do that? It doesn't stop your client base complaining and will instead just raise more negativity towards you and what is percieved as a lack of caring or understanding of the players needs, wants and complaints. I would have thought that a positive response to the posts, indicating that you will try to resolve the problem, that you have also noticed it etc etc, would create a better word of mouth for Lineage II. Even if potential new players saw the problem posts that are here, a 'we are trying to resolve', 'we are aware and take on board your comments' etc would surely encourage new players to be better understanding of the problems NC face and more willing to join the game and except that someone somewhere is attempting to resolve the problems.
If that same potential player has had a look at the boards, seen the threads and then later comes back to check if there has been a response only to find the same post is deleted or locked with no comment from NC that will only give you negative publicity.
Come on NC, stand up for yourselves and try to respond in a better fashion. Coving up the cracks only hides the holes, it doesn't make them go away.
As I mentioned there, we are aware of the concerns about the use of third-party programs on the new server. We have dedicated staff investigating suspicious players on the server as we speak. We do ask for patience as the investigation process takes some time, so the turnaround probably won't be as quick as players would like, but we are working hard to investigate anyone who might be breaking the rules.
Rather than posting screenshots or "rants" here on the message board, please use the web site (http://support.lineage2.com) or the /gm command to report suspicious players on the server so the GM team can take a look.
As I mentioned there, we are aware of the concerns about the use of third-party programs on the new server. We have dedicated staff investigating suspicious players on the server as we speak. We do ask for patience as the investigation process takes some time, so the turnaround probably won't be as quick as players would like, but we are working hard to investigate anyone who might be breaking the rules.
Rather than posting screenshots or "rants" here on the message board, please use the web site (http://support.lineage2.com) or the /gm command to report suspicious players on the server so the GM team can take a look.
I have made a character on Franz (level 5 baby, almost ready for the event weapon), and I /gm suspicious players.
Please keep in mind that there is a certain process that has to be followed for every investigation, and it does take time. This is for the protection of accounts so that innocent players are not banned. Think of it like a police investigation -- innocent until proven guilty, and there are steps that have to be taken to prove "guilt".
yeah where? cause that reminds me when i had interview for a GM in WoW and they asked me what char i am playing i said im not playing WoW im playing L2 for 2 and a half years, they said so why didnt u applied for GM in L2 than...
I have made a character on Franz (level 5 baby, almost ready for the event weapon), and I /gm suspicious players.
Please keep in mind that there is a certain process that has to be followed for every investigation, and it does take time. This is for the protection of accounts so that innocent players are not banned. Think of it like a police investigation -- innocent until proven guilty, and there are steps that have to be taken to prove "guilt".
It's time to hire a consultant on how to streamline and expedite the process without losing quality of investigation. I volunteer at my standard engineering salary >.>
woot gogo mistyl :-)
Yeah I looked at one of those forever I believe it was convention manager or something bah can;t remeber then I thought why would I rly want to deal with all that.
Every1 lookin at a job for NC proberbly has NONE of the qualifications needed for the jobs they actually list =P we all just wanna be GM's and abuse the power lol. (god im KIDDING...maybe =P)
So yea, ive never seen a GM posistion up there, lol.
Exactly my point. I see artists and network engineers (sorry, rocket science/petrochemical engineer here). Where do you hire GM staff, I have genuine interest because someday I might really enjoy that for something to do after I retire at 35ish? Then again, I would probably be worse than GMGabriel ...
(PPS, if you don't know The Noob Comic by Gianna (http://thenoobcomic.com/) don't click or you'll end up loling and reading the 200 planks. my fav is 'yournamehere')
And since now we might call bots the Funny Fellas.
Think of it like a police investigation -- innocent until proven guilty, and there are steps that have to be taken to prove "guilt".
And while the investigation goes on, the mass murder continues his deadly path staying one step in front of the police. Instead of the police just taking the sucker out and saving countless lives, they keep gather information untill countless lives are lost. :(
Every1 lookin at a job for NC proberbly has NONE of the qualifications needed for the jobs they actually list =P we all just wanna be GM's and abuse the power lol. (god im KIDDING...maybe =P)
So yea, ive never seen a GM posistion up there, lol.
This thread makes me think back to 2000 when a game company attempted to recruit me. I still laugh about it. I was happily playing their test server, running around the bank area. Some dev "Pandemonium(sp?)" was walking around looking for attention and standing on the roof of the bank in the sw corner where a mask was suspended in the air and I decided to have some fun....So I logged onto my char "I teach the gods" and started dumping server up rares all over on the ground and the mass of people all left him to surround me. Shortly after that I was approached by a TC reg who asked me if I was looking for a job. And they went into detail...
My response was a series of "LOL's". First, I did'nt need a job. I run my own company. And second if I had even considered it, it would have limited my free speech on message boards. I don't pull punches so it was not an option. I've watched many people just plain disappear when they were employed by game companies. So me and the person came to an agreement.. I'd keep doing what I always do and when and if I needed help I'd email the person and his secretary would forward the message :)
Qualifications? he never asked..... :) But I'll tell you one thing. I deal with mechanical systems in my rl work. I end up looking at blueprints all day. Imagine an empty building.. say 1 mil sq ft as an example (an auto plant) and then start thinking how your going to install 50 miles of piping into that building all filled with machinery. Talk about spaghetti. lol
If it looks like a [923] and walks like a [923] and talks like a [923] then it must be a [923]. Who needs an investigation. Just smack the sucker on the head and get it over with and move on to the next one. :D
Sigh.. more PR spin without the actions to back it up.
Why do the players have to /gm anything? The GMs should be gathering data on where the the majority of suspecious accounts are found and/or reported. They should be using that information for figure out what behaviors (or the lack there of) characterize an automated account (on for 24+ hours a day repeatedly, no interaction with surronding characters, repeated deleveling on a single guard, etc), then taking that information and actively hunting out accounts matching the profile and policing areas the bots frequent. That GMs only react after players petition indicates that the GMs are waiting until the problem becomes glaringly obvious then trying to address the situation while more and more petitions are piling up. In short GMs are being reactive to the bots instead of trying to prevent the problem from reaching the epidemic stage in the first place.
Other companies have been successful in keeping the whole automation issue to a minor nuisance without relying on the players to do the grunt work for them. In 2 years of DAoC I never once saw character that screamed "bot". In EQ botting was a minor nuisance tied to a few zones (Rathe, Bastion of Thunder, etc) with less impact on the economy than the scarcity of an item. Even in WoW bots were rarely such a huge nuisance that you couldn't find an area free of them. So why can what was once the "larget MMO in the world" not achieve with more resources on fewer servers what other companies have done with less resources over more servers?
If it looks like a [923] and walks like a [923] and talks like a [923] then it must be a [923]. Who needs an investigation. Just smack the sucker on the head and get it over with and move on to the next one. :D
At the first sign of the companies having adena to sell on Franz, they(NC) should get their "own employees" to start making small buys from the companies and when asked for a delivery name, they give the name of a charactor directly monitored by GM's.
With all the free game accounts given out by game companies to it's own employees, this could probably work and technically be reasonably secure. This would'nt work if they thought of having players help.
Go after the companies bank charactors and mule accounts. It's much easier to trace it all backwards.
There may be tens of thousands of non legit players, but there are only a handful of companies actually selling the crap. Nuke them! lol
Heck, NC-China could help. Provide them with several L2 accounts with some adena. And instruct them to try and sell to the companies. Bam.... Reason I say nc-china is that I'd bet the adena companies are tracking IP's and can recognize proxy servers.
I think going after a handful of companies is easier than going after tens of thousands of non legit players. Nobody is going to buy adena if it's 150-200 bucks US per 1 mil adena! Cutoff suppy and the prices rise, simple economics folks!
Just going after the automated player packs is'nt enough.
You would be surprised as to what "qualifications" can really mean.
Problem is nowadays people think in diplomas and degrees. Yet I know for a fact that there are people without diplomas and degrees who are "qualified" to do a job by the very nature of who they are and how they think.
If anyone listned to public radio today, there was an author who was telling the story of how he was approached by the U.S. govt and asked to join a think tank of FBI, CIA, etc in order to come up with ways that terrorists can destroy cities (amongst other things).
He They wanted him not because he ever worked for the govt or led a think tank or had degrees in the subject but because he thought "the right way".
It's a shame really. I see so many people who decided they are going to be a "x". They go to school, get some grades, pass some tests and bam. They get a diploma. Doesn't mean that when push comes to shove they can actually do the job.
So in the end, you probably had the abilites and the right frame of mind that made you qualified for their job.
Or... they were just off their rockers... whatever.. it's all good. :p
Actually farmers were not able to hide in instances at all. First they have to leave at some point (to sell, resupply, etc) and players in WoW were quite able to ID the farmers in the same manner as L2 players (obvious names, gear far below what they should have, etc). In fact we had running jokes about going /who and saying "must be close to Xmas - the farmers are working Dire Maul again." Now imagine a GM who could also do a /who but cover multiple servers and any intance at any time and tell me how a farmer would hide better than in the back room of a catacomb where players may never go?
Also, WoW farmers were not too fond of instances. In WoW instance means elite monsters and elite monsters that aren't grey (and hence can drop the items farmers want for sale) can still pack a serious threat to a player if they come in numbers. I know there are times as a well-geared 60 warrior I was forced to burn multiple cooldowns clearing the Cathedral out because something had managed to run for help and brought the whole place minus Morrgain on me. Now imagine how well a farmer rogue or hunter with gear that was often 20 levels below them (where gear 10 levels below was taking a serious hit to damage and survival) would be able to deal with that same situation.
If you wanted to find farmers (easy HK's on a PvP server) you would hit places like Azshara, Stranglethorn Vale, or the area south of Blackrock Spire (brain refuses to remember the name). Those areas had the 50+ non-elites, lots of monsters with saleable drops (silk cloth, hides, etc), and ore nodes that produced the farmers mainstay of income by sales at the auction houses.
Also how does 10 servers count as "more" when DAoC had atleast 12 (minus the classic servers), and EQ had more than that? If you want to count the Korean servers maybe - but the Korean server are handled by NCSoft Korea. In effect NCSoft NA is only concerned for 10 (11 now counting Franz) servers.
I'm sure they can just watch the path and how the adena flows from person to person.
It's all about proving it.
Player x says I just gave it to my friend. Player x says my friend just gave it to me. Can you prove I bought it or sold it for rl money?
You need a way inside. If you can make a simple paper trail from the guy who comes to collect your adena or from the person handing you the adena, in a secure way (nc employees) you have direct links, not somebodys allegations.....
You have proof this way. Not just somebody accusing somebody else, in which an investigation could literally take a long long time. It's not cost effective to seriously investigate tens of thousands players each week without a 50 person gm staff :(
As I understand it (and maybe I'm wrong), your regular gm's are the groupee nation people? or are they just the ModeratorX's on the forums? lol. So, in any case you basically have one head GM checking off weekly on who gets banned based on automated tests based on reports generated by the regular Gm's who are there to receive reports from players. Not much else... The bannings are about automated players, not about what they do with the in-game properties.
I say, the process needs more to combat the problem as a whole. People with Ip's in asia selling and people with IP's in europe and NA buying. All of which are owned by ncsoft. They can generate accounts and money to sell in game easily.
Automate a system where they sell small amounts regularly to the adena selling companies where they can build a clear picture of many aspects of a "network" they need to ban. At a certain point it becomes unprofitable for the companies to risk buying adena from players. Whereas all it takes from NC is a system to sell something they can make from thin air to instantly prove it!
Dein
*Don't just go in the front door! Team 2 hit the backdoor! Team 3 Blast out those windows and drop down thru the skylight!*
Is it about proving it? They say that they can ban people for any reason, I've heard plenty of banning stories where people have been permanently banned for doing nothing, or even silly things like their credit card expiring without remembering to change the info on the account site (easy trip to permaban!).
Actually, personally I've seen a huge decrease of bots in catacombs and and TOI and DVC and all those areas. NCSoft has made a lot of progress with those. However the more concerning (at least in my opinion) farmers are the raid farmers, where we've seen little progress.
Especially now in C5, with all the emphasis on raiding for clans to level up and stuff... having one dominating raid farmer alliance severely ruins gameplay for the server.
But then again, I haven't acutally seen very many raid farmers farming raid bosses since the start of C5 (there've been a lot of bosses up on Bartz), I did just assume that since all their spies got ported to town mixed in with all the updating of their internet cafe or whatever, they have some downtime, but maybe I'll be suprised!
It's admirable that your vocal about your passion against farmers. :)
I personally just despise them all. lol
I think I just gave up on Franz. Seems pointless. It's overrun. There is no way I can compete against a pack of 7 charactors all controlled by 1 keyboard. Nor do I want too...
So....I guess maybe it's time to take my char I put about 15 hours into on Franz and find a guild of [923] killers
If anyone knows of a group actively hunting "the bad people" on Franz, send me a PM, I'll come help.
Dein
*goes back to lurking several other message boards, posting the same anti-farmer stuff while I wait*
The problem has been around WAY before Franz. If the problem never seems to go away on the original servers, how can we expect anything to be done on a brand new server? All that does is strech the GM's work even thinner, on an already strained system.
I don't doubt that the GM's are doing everything that they are able to do. I just think the problem is larger than they are capable of dealing with as they handle things now. Too many restrictions and "investigations" and not enough action, but that's the policy NCSoft has in place.
Raid boss farmers will continue to do what they are best at, and every server added will allow them and the "other" problems to just grow larger until some serious changes are made.
As I've said to many people before, actions speak louder than words. We shall see what happens on Franz and with the Raid Boss farmers, but we have heard all the retoric for years. We want to actually SEE what you guys keep saying you are doing.
It's obviously not the strain, they ban thousands of accounts. The problem is the technique. It's too slow. If it takes them a month to ban an account, the farmer already made his money back. The truth is they lack the tools to aggressively prove a bot exists (PROVE). NCsoft Korea lacks the desire to stop botting...many Korean players cheat like this and nobody cares. It's frowned on in Western culture because we value fair play so much more.
Unless the process can be streamlined, the only answer is to hire more GMs (significantly) and simply ban in large enough numbers that the farmers (who outnumber you) cannot keep up. I don't think our GMs stink, I dont think NCsoft has underbudgetted support, it's simply a matter of them trying to run a game they frankly, don't develop. It's a shame really because that turns a lot of players away...then again it probably evens out for their bottom line and I'm sure that makes the big cheese happy enough to not simply close the game :p
...then again it probably evens out for their bottom line and I'm sure that makes the big cheese happy enough to not simply close the game :p
It truly is an endless cycle for them. They ban mass accounts each month for [923]ing. And next month they are back with new accounts.
Being in business myself, I can see how a company would jump up and down with glee over this kind of situation. An endless cycle of new revenues each month or so. I don't agree with it, but I can see how it happens.
It's a hard spot to be in, they'd need to realize new ways of making up for it if they removed that source of revenues. And that really is'nt hard if you use some brain power.
Dein
*This of course is all in the hypothetical and in no way reflects any real situation in lineage 2*
Bots annoy me as much as other people, for the following reasons:-
When you have to kill a mob that's not a quest mob, I've always had to race to it before a train of 9 players run up and tap it to death without SS...
I've recently rolled a Warlord which means I live in catas / necros. Party logs in, takes room, you train em, they run out and force log...
They dictate pricing by having ridiculous amounts of maps and drops...
However:-
As easy as it is to say, "Unleash the Ban Cannon" I can understand that an investigation process needs to be used. Only recently, I learned that you can turn of damage / consumable messages in the chat window. If I got banned because I didn't respond to a GM asking me if I was there and I didn't see it, because I all I see is:-
You hit for 300 damage
Mob hits you for 90 damage
Mob hits you for 87 damage
Critical Hit!
Mob hits you for 173 damage
Mob hits you for 45 damage
Mob hits you for 77 damage
Mob hits you for 91 damage
Mob hits you for 62 damage
Mob hits you for 78 damage
You hit for 284 damage
You hit for 302 damage
You hit for 200 damage
You hit for 189 damage
You hit for 299 damage
You hit for 301 damage
You hit for 400 damage
You hit for 500 damage
You have gained 6700 XP and 400 SP
You have gained 6700 XP and 400 SP
You have gained 6700 XP and 400 SP
You have gained 6700 XP and 400 SP
You have gained 6700 XP and 400 SP
And I miss the:-
>GM SPAM: You have 30 seconds to reply or I ban you and your party
I would be screaming blue murder on these forums, why ban me when there's a party of bots in the room next to me ffs...
If they start wantonly banning, then some innocent people would get banned also and that's not acceptable to us.
We all know who bots are. We all know their behaviour. The only thing that I can think of as a workaround is to have a some type of GM who is completely undetectable and have them sweep areas in the game constantly. Or, have GM's make a char on each server and pimp it out, have it run through catas / known botting places and then use your GM powers to investigate further once you feel you have enough proof.
With GM commands it shouldn't take too long. You see 9 characters stood on top of each other? You know what they are and you know what to do.