Ok, im not going to rehash old arguments here, i think its safe to say that Greater Heal on a SE now is seriously underpowered and no where near balanced. If it wasnt for Empower and Vampric Rage, SE's would be a seriously lost class.
So id like to offer a few suggestions if i may.
Greater Heal:
1. The Hit Point regen from using a Blessed Spirit Shot doesnt seem to increase the acual HP regeneration itself, it just increases the amount of intial HP you get before the regen timer begins, which doesnt even equal a 100 HP difference, therefore, no need to waste Blessed Spirits shots at all on this ability.
If when using Blessed Spirit Shots on Greater Heal, it should increase the HP regeneration.
2. The amount Greater Heal uses in mana points should be reduced, seeing in tight situations you cannot rely on the HP regeneration to run its course and need to use it over and over again to stay ontop of the damage being recieved, it more or less renders the whole Heal over Time aspect useless.
3. You could also adjust the way the hit points regen, for example, instead of having it regen for small amounts of HP quickly, have it regen in chunks similar to the way a Greater Heal Potion works.
4. The ability to see when the HP regen buff has worn off your selected target, in the heat of the moment, people tend to lose concentration and lose track of time, 20 seconds is a fair time, and i think its fair to say that it wouldnt hurt to see the buff on the selected target, maybe a glowing effect of some sort on the target so not to take up anymore buff slots.
Vampric Rage:
Now im not 100% sure about this, but i have noticed a big decrease in Hit Point gain while having the use of Vampric Rage on me.
Now, this could be because of not having Greater Shield or Greater Might on me from a PP, but none the less, if VR is healing for less, why?
If im right and VR has been nerfed, why balance it around Greater Shield and Greater Might which not everyone has access too anyway?
How are they balancing VR around Greater Shield and Greater Might? Simple, they reduce the effect of SE's healing potential because they obviously were not happy where they were when it came to healing power, VR was a big part of their healing power also, so to balance it out, they nerfed it and have made the use of Greater Shield + Greater Might do its work to make VR do its job again like it used to pre C5. Its another way to put more emphasis on grouping.
Conclusion:
I see no reason why a SE still cant be a decent healer in a Duo / Trio group seeing majority of the stuff you take on in these groups at higher levels arent anything more then x2 HP anyway.
I suppose when fighting mobs solo, or Tank vs 1 mob, there really isnt a problem, Greater Heal + VR tends to work well, but when it comes to fighting groups or using a polearm, it gets really iffy and i've died alot since the release of C5 from SE's trying to adjust to the new change, some have gone as far to quit because they simply dont like it, the HP regen is too weak which was the main reason for quitting.
Bishops should only really be needed for large groups of like 6 - 9 people, seeing if you look at it from a risk vs reward point of view wether it be XP or items your hunting, then 6 - 9 people groups should be taking on some pretty mean and nasty monsters that would normaly tear some stuff up in a bad way.
My wife and I are willing to adjust to this change, but we feel it needs some attention as you guys have gone a tad over board with it, you are in the right direction though thats for sure as i will agree that SE's pre C5 were powerful healers, a little too powerful, but now there a little too weak and need some fine tuning which im hoping we can openly discuss here. For those wondering, my wife has played her SE since Prelude / Beginning of C1.
VR for melee groups which the other healers don't get which helps their heals a ton.
Recharges for archer groups which bishops don't get which helps them a lot too.
Emp for mage groups. Other healers don't get that.
Only thing they sorta suck in is pvp healing, but... PoWind is awesome for a dagger group so~
SE's were just taken in a different direction, they aren't bad at all, but if you guys really think so, SE's should all sub bishop then and be done with it. ;)
People who quit because they cant ajust to FAIR changes shouldnt be playing L2 at all. Like that earlier thread about some1 quitting because they couldnt have long hair....
Just a small point since i dont know what class you play (Ill assume an Orc from your Avatar?) but VR retruns HP depending on how much dmg your class can deal, so if a Healer is using it, its not going to help. Again i cant comment further due to not knowing what you play.
Yes i believe the new heals were a little over the top, the inital heal seems to have been cut in half rather then this 70% Inital to 30% Over time deal that people seem to be saying.
Heres what you need to do, get another healer for your group if you cant handle a group on your own anymore, whenever im in a party i always ask if we can get a WC/SE or PP for Buffs because i dont have the ones people want/need, but people are starting to realise that Bishops/EE's arent there for Buffing (took them long enough, but more so for EE's) and that SE's arent there to play a main Healer anymore.
Groups just need to start looking for 2 healers now instead of letting an SE do it all.
You said if it wasnt for VR you wouldnt be worth playing? (Or along those lines) Well you dont have to worry about that because you DO have VR and thats not going to change anytime soon. Never state an argument saying 'If i didnt have this id be crap' when you do and will continue to have it. Thats like daggers saying they would be rubbish without the Focus SA, but they arent going to lose it, so theres no point in saying it.
I very much doubt people are quitting the game over this, thats like Nukers leaving because they cant own everyone in 5 seconds anymore. I see less nukers, thats because they were all FoTM rerollers and are now making Dagger classes. Oh yea, with VR and more Daggers to group, theres absolutly NO PROBLEM for SE's. Lol.
Im not telling you to shut up, im not telling to to go and quit if you cant handle it. Im telling you what every single Non SE is thinking, we all do fine with SE's in C5, i dont know anyone who has died over this change. If you have a pole party, maybe you should get an EE or Bishop as well since they are this Chronicles Main Healers. If you refuse to believe it and change, dont group them and die alot more, no1 will mind apart from you.
However i do agree with your BSPS + Greater Heal issue concerning the HoT part, in effect its wasting BSPS when the Shot is used for only half the skill.
If it wasnt for Empower and Vampric Rage, SE's would be a seriously lost class.
Yes, if it WERE NOT for those buffs. But the SE DOES have those buffs, which makes them balanced.
QFE!!
Bishops don't get duo's like a SE can, nor trios; we have to get big groups that also include someone to buff and maybe also recharge, which we cannot do. And those aren't always that easy to form.
hey i duo with a bishop with an out of party prophet now.
Pain of sageterius and bishop heals and nevermind purify from all those bleed posion mobs in fod and i can go none stop :) Plus they can pick up my drops for me so i dont have to slow down :)
Your looking at it from the wrong angle, first of all, im not here arguing what a SE brings to a group, like i said, if it wasnt for Empower and VR, SE's would be a lost class, they get none of the fluff that EE's get and i could of started about that but i didnt, simply because a EE is its own class, im not here to debate who gets what, im here to debate a SE's weak power in healing now.
Judging by your sig you have no clue what im talking about because you cant even use a polearm too see where this change really hurts the "Warrior" classes, your a Knight, you absorb damage and control agro, not deal damage to save your life.
From your point of view where your speciality is controling one mob at a time, speaking from a mana effcient point of view seeing the Enrage line takes way too much mana to keep group mobs under control on a constant basis when looking at it from a grind group perspective, VR does its job well, something else i stated which i seriously doubt you even seen or read my entire post when i flick through the moot points you made which have nothing to do with a SE's ability to heal, also notice i dont wish to see my wifes SE to be the uber healer she once was? I merely see that there is a huge void there now and it can do with some fine tuning.
The problem with your view is your only looking at it from a 75+ point of view, the game doesnt revolve around 75+ and therefore the scales need to be adjusted to benefit people between 52 and 75.
The direction you are seeing them go down now is a more Heal over Time direction with SE's which seriously doesnt work in a duo / trio when killing anything worth killing for 2 or 3 people groups, go make a lvl 58 - 60 group if you have any alts at that level, get a Tank ( Warrior type ), PP and SE, then goto Catacombs or the nwere areas where mobs spilt from solo to 7+ group mobs when using skills on them and see the difference, you will know what im talking about, also keep in mind that these mobs are solo mobs, not x2, x3 or x4 mobs.
Id like us to stay on track here with the debate being SE's ability to heal, you think there fine, i dont think they are along with alot of other people, lets leave it at that.
If it wasnt for Empower and Vampric Rage, SE's would be a seriously lost class.
Yes, if it WERE NOT for those buffs. But the SE DOES have those buffs, which makes them balanced.
And I keep telling you that if all that makes a SE a balanced class is having these two buffs, then no SE needs to level past 58. Because then you have emp3 and vr3. So why level a SE as your main char to 76+ ? You don't get anything worthwhile...
I know it's not much comfort, but daggers will be wanting PoWind probably, as it allows them to move at their normal high speeds and close the gap to deliever mean damage.
Ever done archer groups where everyone has a drac w/focus? You need 2-3 rechargers. Even with CS bows you can't keep your mp up very easily.
Unless you mean why don't you take an EE, which you could, but you could take an SE as well, where you can't take a bishop. It's a trade off.
Your speaking form a very unathordoxed gameplay style which probaly 2% of the player base if that have even attempted to do.
For clarification purposes, im speaking from a 2 - 3 person group here under normal grouping circumstances where you have a buffer + healer + tank ( Warrior type ) and are taking on group mobs.
Like i said, ill aggree with anyone here, VR + the new Greater Heal seems to work fine when fighting one mob at a time with no adds or groups or pulling trains for a polearm user.
Before the change. polearm xp grinding was still dangerous, especially with just a SE healing, but now its really really dangerous, you can still do it, just alot of downtime and like someone stated here, you need to load up on more healers, especially a Bishop.
Just like Ellie stated, bishops are mainly required for larger group sceanrios, if its hard to get a group together for such purposes they should of made the reward higher for the risk envolved in making a group that large in the first place to encourage more larger group sceanrios OTHER then just having numbers there in the event war tags come down and you need to defend yourself.
I added a extra suggestion to the OP which i just realized too.
The ability to see when the HP regen buff has worn off your selected target, in the heat of the moment, people tend to lose concentration and lose track of time, 20 seconds is a fair time, and i think its fair to say that it wouldnt hurt to see the buff on the selected target, maybe a glowing effect of some sort on the target so not to take up anymore buff slots.
Your speaking form a very unathordoxed gameplay style which probaly 2% of the player base if that have even attempted to do.
No I'm not, I'm speaking of the way most of the high levels of our server levelled since C1.
Well now your saying that majority of Bartz server leveled using archer parties......
Anyways, this has nothing to do with SE healing potential except that in archer parties they dont need to heal because all they are is mana batterys.....and archers ping pong the agro.
Your speaking form a very unathordoxed gameplay style which probaly 2% of the player base if that have even attempted to do.
No I'm not, I'm speaking of the way most of the high levels of our server levelled since C1.
Well now your saying that majority of Bartz server leveled using archer parties......
Anyways, this has nothing to do with SE healing potential except that in archer parties they dont need to heal because all they are is mana batterys.....and archers ping pong the agro.
Again, unathordoxed gameplay style.
But it's not unorthodox, just because you haven't done it. I'm saying it was more of a standard, calling it unorthodox is absurb. I'm saying SE's are fine in a wide variety of situations, which they are. If SE's aren't cutting it for the way you exp, change your exp style~
If it wasnt for Empower and Vampric Rage, SE's would be a seriously lost class.
Yes, if it WERE NOT for those buffs. But the SE DOES have those buffs, which makes them balanced.
And I keep telling you that if all that makes a SE a balanced class is having these two buffs, then no SE needs to level past 58. Because then you have emp3 and vr3. So why level a SE as your main char to 76+ ? You don't get anything worthwhile...
QFE and QFT.
MalineII i can name 5 EE's on Sieg and 3 prophets that have been bought from farmers to buff PoW and PoF.But i dont know even 1 bought SE.That should indicate SE's PoW usefulness.
1. The Hit Point regen from using a Blessed Spirit Shot doesnt seem to increase the acual HP regeneration itself, it just increases the amount of intial HP you get before the regen timer begins, which doesnt even equal a 100 HP difference, therefore, no need to waste Blessed Spirits shots at all on this ability.
If when using Blessed Spirit Shots on Greater Heal, it should increase the HP regeneration.
Always whanted that n my WC.. Or at least reduce the time in which the efect takes place. For example those 500hp the dop part gives will last 10 seconds instead of 15..
4. The ability to see when the HP regen buff has worn off your selected target, in the heat of the moment, people tend to lose concentration and lose track of time, 20 seconds is a fair time, and i think its fair to say that it wouldnt hurt to see the buff on the selected target, maybe a glowing effect of some sort on the target so not to take up anymore buff slots.
YES! YES! YES!! :o
it's especialy hard if you arent the one who casted the greater heal. Now I have to keep eye on my mp bar, buff timers, extra mobs to sleep, do damage and on top of it look after SE heals so I wount cancel out her heals HoT part.. Yes, it's fun, but I would live better withot that last task..
As I said, I know it's not much comfort - and it'll certainly take some experimenting. I would take critical power on a percentage increase from behind over PAtk as a dagger, especially if it meant not moving like a snail. I know of one other person who has said this, and I'm sure more will discover the usefulness of the prophecy - eventually. If there are any SEs to give it. :p
I'm still amazed at all the nukers going "zomg can't cure silence".
If it wasnt for Empower and Vampric Rage, SE's would be a seriously lost class.
Yes, if it WERE NOT for those buffs. But the SE DOES have those buffs, which makes them balanced.
And I keep telling you that if all that makes a SE a balanced class is having these two buffs, then no SE needs to level past 58. Because then you have emp3 and vr3. So why level a SE as your main char to 76+ ? You don't get anything worthwhile...
WRONG. VR4 and recharge. You know **** well an SE is useless to a nuker he isn't within 5 levels of. If the nuker is 78, he has to be at least 73. So based on the current leveling scheme, I suppose the highest level anyone will ever need of an SE is 75 if they don't want POW for any reason whatsoever.
People are gonna level to 80 where there are no skills to be had. Just because yours aren't as absurdly strong gains at higher level like they were at lower level, doesn't mean there is no reason to level. The SE is a recharger...it HAS to level with the nukers.
If it wasnt for Empower and Vampric Rage, SE's would be a seriously lost class.
Yes, if it WERE NOT for those buffs. But the SE DOES have those buffs, which makes them balanced.
And I keep telling you that if all that makes a SE a balanced class is having these two buffs, then no SE needs to level past 58. Because then you have emp3 and vr3. So why level a SE as your main char to 76+ ? You don't get anything worthwhile...
WRONG. VR4 and recharge. You know **** well an SE is useless to a nuker he isn't within 5 levels of. If the nuker is 78, he has to be at least 73. So based on the current leveling scheme, I suppose the highest level anyone will ever need of an SE is 75 if they don't want POW for any reason whatsoever.
People are gonna level to 80 where there are no skills to be had. Just because yours aren't as absurdly strong gains at higher level like they were at lower level, doesn't mean there is no reason to level. The SE is a recharger...it HAS to level with the nukers.
Or you can just get your SE to 52 (for emp) and level the EE. I like my EE.. I'd be happy to box my SE oop for VR..... (I get to have my cake and eat it too.. my SE can recharge anything.)
That is the purpose of the OL...I'm sure you did lots of recharging still and a rebuff or two on the side for somebody that died twice before obtaining Noble blessing again. The SE has been the healer of choice for 4 chronicles. It needed a consequence to all it's strengths. Now it isn't the best at anything, but it is mediocre at everything.
I'll tell you, I've been playing a SE actively since about C1. What I don't like is that I have to re-learn how to heal, and I have to guestimate when my heal wears off.
But I love the class, and I love the character. That's part of the reason I role-play, because a character can transcend their abilities.
I plan to adjust to the changes that have been made, and I will continue to play Olorae as my main. I may not be happy with the heal nerf, or the sleep nerf, but I will work around it.
That is the purpose of the OL...I'm sure you did lots of recharging still and a rebuff or two on the side for somebody that died twice before obtaining Noble blessing again. The SE has been the healer of choice for 4 chronicles. It needed a consequence to all it's strengths. Now it isn't the best at anything, but it is mediocre at everything.
Yes i think we can all agree that it needed changing but not this much.
Now it needs fine tuning, i wouldnt go as far to say that SE were the choice of healing for the last 4 chronicles because they didnt get VR until C3, so.....wrong im sorry to say.
Its funny you think like this Sith, then again it comes as no surprise because of your replies in the Dwarf thread. The thing i find funny is, look at a SE compaired to a EE, EE can recharge and buff just as well as a SE but leaves a SE for dead when it comes to healing power and a range of other abilities like:
Higher Percent Rez ( 60% at 74 ), Party Recall, Recall, Clarity, Decrease Weight, Serande, Agility, Vitalize, Advanced Block, Resist Shock, Major Heal, Turn Undead.
Why did i put resist shock in there? Anyone over lvl 58 will know why.
Now as you can see by easliy checking the L2.com site, that EE get everything else a SE does, except VR and Empower.
So your trying to tell me Sith that all these extra goodies that a EE get is balanced out by Empower and VR seeing a EE can do EVERYTHING a SE does and more with or without VR and Empower.......
If you have grouped in the new areas, or higher level cats you will know that VR is less then mediocre at best because of the damage being recieved and on top of that the amount of mobs that stun, cancel buffs, paraylize, also VR is nothing like it used to be because it all depends on the tanks ability to do damage, how many Tanks out there can pop there P.Atk above 1500 to make it worth while?
That leaves a SE Empower.......yeah great buff, for casters and as we already know, casters have quit playing in droves and are rerolling Daggers....to be honest i hardly ever grouped with casters because most of them solo with a SE in tail for Empower / Recharge.
So i ask you Sith, in all your mighty wisdom, what makes a EE so special over a SE to recieve all these buffs that a SE gets, plus a range of buffs / abilities of their own that no other class in the game gets? You think a SE was the chosen healing class for 4 chronicles? I laugh at you, there was nothing different between a EE and SE's healing ability and now there is, a huge difference.
Like i said, i didnt want to compair classes, but some people are just too thick headed and seem to think that Empower and VR is some god uber buffs and is the reason why SE's are balanced.
So what i will do is since ive gone this far is, why should a EE get Major Heal over a SE? Its a simple question, look at what a EE gets compare it with a SE and try to help me understand why, because i cant see any reason why a EE should get Major Heal over a SE.
Its sad but true, SE's have become the next PP, level them to 58 and leave them there, if anyone thinks that PoWind makes a difference just because a Dagger class will want it, thats pretty funny. At higher levels ill take Arcane Protection or Wisdom any day over PoWind...but wait......EE can do those too.....
You can't even compare the two. The EE is an incapable small party buffer. It has no offensive buffs which is essential to small party.
EVERY NUKER in game requires empower and recharging. And a nuker is still the primary class in existence. An SE can provide both, an EE can provide one...but better heals in exchange.
The changes are balanced. The SE still heals very well in small groups if you have a real tank class.
honestly get your heads out of your ***, and learn how to play the class with HoT!!
I did a party in 2 different spots last night...runes cave, and deep IT...know what we where: TK, BD, SpS, WC, and SE (myself), TK and WC are heros(one on sub one not). oh and we picked up a TH later on. Max players 5 then 6 later on.
Not a single person bit ched about my healing... Why Cause I know how to watch the HoT...and see to it that Bsps adds more HP to the heal.(clearly you bit chers don't know how to watch the HoT)
At 74 with elemental +3(BW robes), I heal for 478 W/o Bsps, with Bsps 788+.. then you add in HoT which is a 15 second heal. adds about 250 more HP over time.. even tho they are taking dmg and VR to so it all even outs.
Stop bit ching about it, learn how to play your class noobs!!!
*sigh, now I feel better about this..tired of hearing the rants of complains about the heals*
you know what....SE has been wanted in parties: every single one(from C2 till C5)... people telling EE and bish no party cause they want Emp or VR and recharge. *>.<* :mad:
Guess what... SE lovers...get a real healer now! :eek:
So your trying to tell me Sith that all these extra goodies that a EE get is balanced out by Empower and VR seeing a EE can do EVERYTHING a SE does and more with or without VR and Empower.......
BS.
Do you know how it starts to be an EE? "focus plz..." :D
So your trying to tell me Sith that all these extra goodies that a EE get is balanced out by Empower and VR seeing a EE can do EVERYTHING a SE does and more with or without VR and Empower.......
BS.
Do you know how it starts to be an EE? "focus plz..." :D
SoES W/ SA focus!
does that answer you...your only missing about 4 other usefull buffs!
it's about time that bishop and EE are wanted over the SE...
Still I've hunted yesterday in a 4 ppl 65 cata grp with only a SE and he's full Mp and no one's dying, even recharging the BH didn't give any downtime. If that isn't the proof of an SE's versatility. No gsa pots were used.
I actually would prefer live support classes - but since most of them are bloody snobs who know how rare they are and I could never get them to party with one, I figure I might as well do my own thing.
honestly get your heads out of your ***, and learn how to play the class with HoT!!
I did a party in 2 different spots last night...runes cave, and deep IT...know what we where: TK, BD, SpS, WC, and SE (myself), TK and WC are heros(one on sub one not). oh and we picked up a TH later on. Max players 5 then 6 later on.
This is your biggest mistake here in your reply, first off your refering to one of the best tanking classes in the game PvE wise and secondly to top it off he is a hero......I suppose his weapon was also +8 or more id be guessing?
Not a single person bit ched about my healing... Why Cause I know how to watch the HoT...and see to it that Bsps adds more HP to the heal.(clearly you bit chers don't know how to watch the HoT)
My wife sits less then 30 inches away from me, it really isnt hard to keep a eye on it better then you can without seeing the tanks screen for when the buff is about to wear off.
Spam heal HoT and hope for the best doesnt take brain surgery to do when things get dicey, but it chews through the mana at a excelled rate and if its getting even worse the only other heal thats worth using is Battle Heal or Heal.
I like how you say you know how to watch the hot though, that part was amusing when you cant see no indication of it.
Bsps only adds more HP the intial heal at the beginning of the HoT, then the HP regeneration runs for 15 seconds which the Bsps doesnt effect, this was my main reason for posting this thread about SE healing potential because if the Bsps is going to effect the Heal, it should increase the HP regen effect also or it isnt worth wasting Bsps on for a extra 100 - 150 hp speaking form a lvl 60 SE point of view. If you really had read all this rubbish, you would of seen it in the first post.....
At 74 with elemental +3(BW robes), I heal for 478 W/o Bsps, with Bsps 788+.. then you add in HoT which is a 15 second heal. adds about 250 more HP over time.. even tho they are taking dmg and VR to so it all even outs.
Like i already stated, killing mobs one by one with one of the best PvE tank classes in the game while he also just happens to be a hero, yeah the HoT + VR + BD buffs work wonders, try getting a group of adds on him and see how it works out or just get one of your group members to pull adds on him on purpose and run the same sceanrio that you do while killing 1 mob at a time.....
Stop bit ching about it, learn how to play your class noobs!!!
Had to laugh at this one. Obviously things seem balanced for you at lvl 74, wanna know how much a lvl 60 SE heals for? 335, with a Bsps 515.
Its funny you refer to learning how to play my class, you need to rephrase that and say " you need to relearn how to play your class even though you have been playing that game play style for the last 4 chronicles " thats what you should of said, easier said then done i hate to say it.
*sigh, now I feel better about this..tired of hearing the rants of complains about the heals*
Well if you read my OP, which quite obviously you didnt, then you would see that this started of as a suggestion thread, people like you turn it into a rant / whine thread.
you know what....SE has been wanted in parties: every single one(from C2 till C5)... people telling EE and bish no party cause they want Emp or VR and recharge. *>.<* :mad:
The classic no one wants a Bishop or EE complaint......does this ever get old?
Well i dont know about you, but i always welcome a Bishop or EE into my groups even if i have a SE with me, simply because i cant take on bigger and stronger nasties with what they bring to the group.....
Guess what...F.U. SE lovers...get a real healer now! :eek:
Exactally the type of suggestions we dont need here, thanks for coming though, was great with your lvl 74 opinion using a TK hero tank as a comparison.....
I said it before ill say it again, at higher levels ie: 70+, there might not be no problem especially when people are running around with meaty buffed tanks who are reguarded as some of the best tanks in the game, but it seems between 52 - 61 so far which i have personally experienced that there is a fine tuning problem need to be looked into.
Please keep in mind the game doesnt revolve around 74+ and your experiences will always be different to mine seeing im just hitting A grade, but playing a Warrior class healed by a SE is something ive been doing since prelude / beginning of C1 and believe me i say this, im not exagerating.
Even doing pole groups on greens / light blues takes it toll now, stuff that was pretty much trivial before C5.
Anyways, i still stand on my OP, i think it needs to be looked at and so do many others at my level.
I have one question, why does everyone always refer to perfect group sceanrios? I love the way all these people run around as if perfect groups are just waiting for them around every corner.....Id like these same people who think everything is fine to do the tests themselves using a lvl 59 - 60 group, SE / Warrior Tank / PP buffer and go to some of the newer areas or even the catacombs, Devotion / Witchs. Newer areas are pretty tough, especially when the mobs spilt into 7, not that i dont enjoy the challenge, but for normal mobs with no strengths and normal HP types with a group of 3 with a Warrior class using a polearm with VR3, its different thats for sure, its dangerous. :)
Only VR & Emp? You do know what Foucs/DW/Guidence are dont you? Compare Focus to Agility/DW to Bless Shield & Guidence to Decrease weight....
Want to know whats even more hilarous? Is how so many people thing that Death Whisper and Guidance is so special, if a SE is a Caster buffer / regener like so many of you here seem to think they are, then how is Guidance and Death Whisper helping them?
From a melee perspective, yeah i suppose 4 accuracy can be alot, in most cases its not even worth it, if your a Blunt type user, then you already get roughly 5+ accruacy from the Blunt your using....Death Whisper, yeah not a bad buff, nothing special, but we come to big one which is Focus, probaly the only real buff that makes any real difference in PvE normal grind xp groups and PvP, accuracy and Death Whisper are nothing compaired to Focus, besides, a BD dance will increase your crit damage alot more then Death Whisper will, whats lvl 3 DW add, like 75 - 100 dmg per crit? Whats a BD dance add 300+ and scales with level?.
DW vs Agility :
Well for one if im not using a Shield and 1 hander then yeah id go the Agility over DW for sure.
Bless Shield / Decrease Weight vs Guidance :
Hell yeah, cause if im needing Bless Shield, guess what, im using a Blunt so i can use my Stun attack which means i get a Accuracy bonus from the Blunt, so i dont really even need Guidance.....and who wouldnt want Decrease Weight, thats all the more Souls shots i can carry before becoming over weight and recieveing a penalty or heal pots OR CP pots if im war tagged.
The only buff i must really admit that makes any kind of noticeable difference would be Focus, but then that all depends on what sort of weapon your using, using my Blunt Focus increases my Critical less then 10, so not even worth it, if im using my 2 hander, then yeah for sure, Focus makes a huge difference.
So as you can see, there is more to it then just thinking those buffs are worth something, because it all depends on what type of weapon set up your going with to how much they accually effect your base numbers.
Where on the other hand a EE's buffs i mentioned in that post earlier which i will rehash here for converstational purposes:
Higher Percent Rez ( 60% at 74 ), Party Recall, Recall, Clarity, Decrease Weight, Serande, Agility, Vitalize, Advanced Block, Resist Shock, Major Heal, Turn Undead.
None of these are determined by what type of weapon your weilding......where Death Whisper, Guidance and Focus are.
The question you should of asked me is, would i take a EE over a SE?
My answer would of been no, i would of chosen them both to join me, but then if you wanted to get technical about it and said there was one spot left, and you had a SE and EE to chose from, i would have to say it would depend on where we were going to fight and would also depend on group set up.
DW isnt good? What game have you been playing? Yea BD's Dance is better, but both combined is even more valuable.
DW is brought back in as a Valuable Buff.
With DD's, mainly daggers, littering the server, they all want VR/Focus/DW & GUIDENCE. Because Dagger Accuracy isnt that great. Only Dwarfs/Tyrants use blunts, and they arent nearly as common as Daggers/Glads/BD's/SwS's etc.
Guidence is brought back in as a good buff.
If you cant see that every class wants an SE, then your clearly blind.
Higher Rez - so what? A Bishop has higher then me, it only makes an EE excel when someone DIES which shouldnt happen if they have an SE's buffs.
Vitalize - SE's have Greater Group Heal, far more valuable. Oh and Purify, cant forget that.
Party Recall - EE's have always had this, it doesnt help me get groups...
Decrease Wight - No comment needed.
Bless Shield & Advanced Block - EE Buffs countered by the Better SE ones. Oh yea that depends if you have a Tank in the FIRST place, give VR to a dagger and they become a tank...
Clarity - A New Buff that makes EE's WANTED, omg noo attention is taken from your SE.
Major Heal & TU - Improvements to the EE & Bishop classes, they were needed.
Resist shock - Unique, compare it with Empower, oops it sucks.
Spam heal HoT and hope for the best doesnt take brain surgery to do when things get dicey,
Sure. It is stupid now, and it was stupid in C4. In duo (when you don't have a stack of cast reuse time buffs) spamming GH/Heal combo is and was better emergency healing than spamming GH alone.
wanna know how much a lvl 60 SE heals for? 335, with a Bsps 515.
BS again. Over exactly the same time it takes to cast a GH without BSpS (not even counting the cast reuse time), you can cast two lvl 35 Battleheals 300+ HP each, without BSpS.
But of course you have forgot to add HoT part of an SE heals, and of course you have forgot to add 200+ HP per each x1 mob you kill due to VR 3.
then you would see that this started of as a suggestion thread, people like you turn it into a rant / whine thread.
This forum is for rant threads. There is another forum for suggestion threads on the board.
And there is another problem: you don't really understand how healers work, but are still trying to "balance" them.
And one extra bit of trivia for you: did you know that EEs cannot cure Paralyze, while SEs can?
He mentions blunts for pve. I think he wants to duo dwarf and SE and make it a good exp pair...to which I lol. Blunts are the worst weapons in game, 2 handed or not. Might/Guidance/Focus/DW adds more than 100% to your DPS with a sword. If you aren't polearming it, switch to dual swords.
You act like the EE is so special...I think you ought to try out the class. It's an outstanding healer, and has absolutely no buffs. People keep saying "so box the buffer." To which my reply is simply "so box the healer." Neither class need to level that high, and neither have to be in party to be effective. Frankly, if I'm going to drag BOTH a buffer and a healer behind me, why not box both?
PS - My patk with a +3 DLE, offense buffs, and str herb is well over 1600. Once I switch to a forgotten blade at 76 (gotta love your solo area being the S weapon recipe quest), I'll probably be able to push that even higher with a crit rate over 200...300+ with angelic icon running. VR1 alone makes the difference between the number of pots I have to pump while solo.
/sarcasm mode on
Which brings me to my next point, heal pots. These are totally a nerf to healers, why are they in game?
/sarcasm mode off
You're done, you haven't made a single substantial point. Check yourself. Go get EE buffs and solo. Go get SE buffs and solo. Don't give me the "this makes me a buff box" crap. I can use a heal box just the same or a tank box or a BD box or a SWS box. You just can't pull more than 3 mobs at a time without rooting. Boo hoo.
DW isnt good? What game have you been playing? Yea BD's Dance is better, but both combined is even more valuable.
DW is brought back in as a Valuable Buff.
They must of sliently buffed it, as far as i know, DW is no different from C4 to now....
With DD's, mainly daggers, littering the server, they all want VR/Focus/DW & GUIDENCE. Because Dagger Accuracy isnt that great. Only Dwarfs/Tyrants use blunts, and they arent nearly as common as Daggers/Glads/BD's/SwS's etc.
Tyrants use blunts? Hmm, i must be missing something because i would never give up my Fist weapons on my tyrant for a Blunt, 90% of my skills become useless because i need Fist type weapons to make them activatiable.
Daggers might be littering Franz, but not Kain im sorry to say.
Guidence is brought back in as a good buff.
Again i must of missed something in the patch notes or they sliently buffed it, seems the same to me since C4.
If you cant see that every class wants an SE, then your clearly blind.
Must be blind.
Higher Rez - so what? A Bishop has higher then me, it only makes an EE excel when someone DIES which shouldnt happen if they have an SE's buffs.
You make me laugh, with the new Clan system they have in place now Wars will take place and will be emphasised alot more simply for contributuion points, in turn it means jack if you have SE buffs or not and SE dont make you invinceable last time i checked.
Its simple, more War means more death, more death means more rez.....unless of course your War tagged with a clan who wont let you rez and camps your corpses....which is low imho.
Its funny you say this because everytime ive seen my wife go upto someone and say " You need a rez? " the reply is, " Its ok i have a friend on the way with a EE " or " Its ok i have friend on the way with a Blessed Rez " or " No thanks, my clans Bishop is on the way to rez me, thanks anyways though " or " You know a EE or Bishop?"
So yeah, 60% rez vs 20% makes a huge difference.
Vitalize - SE's have Greater Group Heal, far more valuable. Oh and Purify, cant forget that.
One small minor thing you fail to forget is that your buffs does 3 things at once, one single cast you get a Heal, Cure posion and bleed. A SE has to cast Purify to cure posion or bleed then cast a heal, not that i really care, its just a time saver.
Party Recall - EE's have always had this, it doesnt help me get groups...
Who said anything about getting groups, its just a fluff ability that makes them handy. You cannot sit here and tell me that someone has come upto after PR'ing out and said, " god i hate party recall....."
Decrease Wight - No comment needed.
No comment required, your quite welcome to think that its a hopeless ability, tell that to casters who have next to no CON and love this ability.
Bless Shield & Advanced Block - EE Buffs countered by the Better SE ones. Oh yea that depends if you have a Tank in the FIRST place, give VR to a dagger and they become a tank...
Now your going way of the track, derail some more maybe? By the way, SE's have nothing that counters Bless Shield or Advanced Block...... no clue where your getting your information from. Only Defensive buff a SE gets is Shield.....
Clarity - A New Buff that makes EE's WANTED, omg noo attention is taken from your SE.
Again, your mistaking the reasoning behind the post, its not about attention, its about the healing power of a SE, i used the difference between a EE and SE as a example to thick headed people who seem to think that VR + Empower > All else.
On a side note, awesome skill.
Major Heal & TU - Improvements to the EE & Bishop classes, they were needed.
I dont think so, if anything, they should of lowered the amount Greater Heal did and add Major Heal into the Bishop line, i see no reason what so ever why EE's should of got this ability and you wont make me think other wise.
But if this is the way NCsoft wish to go, i can keep on trying to get Greater Heal looked at so its balanced in such a way that it performs underneath Major Heal and not along side of it.
Resist shock - Unique, compare it with Empower, oops it sucks.
Yeah under lvl 58 it sucks because nothing stuns........everything over 60+ stuns like no other and just about everything you encounter stuns or paralyzies, yes i know Shock doesnt help vs paraylize, was simply stating a fact.
It would be like me saying no use putting Resist Shock on a healer / caster.......and we should put Empower on Tanks......while Resist Shock on Casters / Healers makes some sense seeing if you are fighting in War tagged territory, you may shake off alot of stuns, or in the event your fighting in close proximity to AoE stun mobs you can at least increase your resistance to it, but Empower on a tank?........opps, it sucks.
Try again.
Anything else you want me to tackle while we are at it?
In the end, like i keep on saying, im not here to debate who gets what, im here to try and get the Greater Heal line looked into, if there is a problem with it in the mid level range then its going to benefit everyone, EE's and Bishops, so why do you guys act like its the end of the world because i may have stumpled upon a slightly underpowered skill at a certain level in the game?
Its funny, most of you think im asking for SE's to get a adjustment too Greater Heal only, when Elven Elders and Bishops both get the skill also, so any change to the skill would also benefit you..........mind boggling. :confused:
Resist shock? Have you ever been buffed with this? It's like invigor...or resist poison...which generally increases your chance of debuff as much as they could be thought of as increasing.
The SE can't heal full parties in heavy aggro (IT boss room). That's the only place they've been nerfed from...and the only place you would need a bishop for exp.
wanna know how much a lvl 60 SE heals for? 335, with a Bsps 515.
BS again. Over exactly the same time it takes to cast a GH without BSpS (not even counting the cast reuse time), you can cast two lvl 35 Battleheals 300+ HP each, without BSpS.
But of course you have forgot to add HoT part of an SE heals, and of course you have forgot to add 200+ HP per each x1 mob you kill due to VR 3.
If your going to quote me, quote the whole paragragph, you know the part you purposely left out that indicates we were talking about the "intial" heal from the Greater Heal.
then you would see that this started of as a suggestion thread, people like you turn it into a rant / whine thread.
This forum is for rant threads. There is another forum for suggestion threads on the board.
Yeah i realize i may have posted in the wrong section, but people had started replying so to not create to many of the same suggestion i decided to keep it going here, which now i wish i had moved it.
And there is another problem: you don't really understand how healers work, but are still trying to "balance" them.
What am i trying to balance out?
If they do some work to Greater Heal its only benefiting Eleven Elders and Bishops seeing they also get the same heal which does the exact same amount except when you factor in M'Atk which does basically nothing to a heal anyways, so how is this balancing the healer classes out if there is a mid level problem with the skill not being upto par?
And one extra bit of trivia for you: did you know that EEs cannot cure Paralyze, while SEs can?
Did you know that only EE's can offer Resist Shock? This whole part is a moot point, has no bearing on anything.
He mentions blunts for pve. I think he wants to duo dwarf and SE and make it a good exp pair...to which I lol. Blunts are the worst weapons in game, 2 handed or not. Might/Guidance/Focus/DW adds more than 100% to your DPS with a sword. If you aren't polearming it, switch to dual swords.
I mention Blunts for accraucy bonus, learn to read. Besides, Orcs get Stun attacks which require Blunts also. Stun in PvP is the best utility some classes have to offer, and a Blunt is the only way of excuting it.
Blunts are the worst weapons in the game? You need your head read, tell that to the extra 2k HP i get from Deadmans Glory.....on my Destroyer a extra 2k hp sure makes it alot easier to fire off any of my 30% HP abilities thats for sure....unless of course a casters is lucky enough to score a crit, then im toast.
You act like the EE is so special...I think you ought to try out the class. It's an outstanding healer, and has absolutely no buffs. People keep saying "so box the buffer." To which my reply is simply "so box the healer." Neither class need to level that high, and neither have to be in party to be effective. Frankly, if I'm going to drag BOTH a buffer and a healer behind me, why not box both?
Acually ive always been interested in EE's and i might still make one, i like the lore behind the Elf class and i like the idea and storyline behind EE's, from my taste i think id enjoy playing one.
PS - My patk with a +3 DLE, offense buffs, and str herb is well over 1600. Once I switch to a forgotten blade at 76 (gotta love your solo area being the S weapon recipe quest), I'll probably be able to push that even higher with a crit rate over 200...300+ with angelic icon running. VR1 alone makes the difference between the number of pots I have to pump while solo.
Yeah your fighting one mob at a time, try Warrior style game play and fight a few mobs, see the difference.
/sarcasm mode on
Which brings me to my next point, heal pots. These are totally a nerf to healers, why are they in game?
/sarcasm mode off
I agree, Heal herbs heal for alot, they are healing me for well over 1k when i pick them up and they drop quite regularly.
You're done, you haven't made a single substantial point. Check yourself. Go get EE buffs and solo. Go get SE buffs and solo. Don't give me the "this makes me a buff box" crap. I can use a heal box just the same or a tank box or a BD box or a SWS box. You just can't pull more than 3 mobs at a time without rooting. Boo hoo.
Without rooting? Go Solo?
Listen to yourself, your so way off on what the hell we are talking about its not funny, im talking about small group play here with like 3 - 4 people in the group, not a six man / woman perfect set up or a 9 man / woman IT boss perfect setup with a Bishop as main healer for crying out loud, why do you take things way out of context, were you dropped on your head as a baby or something? You do this in every thread, you talk about all the high level stuff which i doubt you've even seen, its probally more like your [censored] talk in the dwarf thread, i seen a guy do this or i seen a guy do that, he says this and he says that, all BS.
When i look at it some more, maybe i should of renamed this thread to Greater Heal and healing instead of Shillien Elders and Healing, seems too many people cant read worth a lick and take everything out of context and seem to assume i want SE's healing potential increased and no one elses when 2 other classes share the exact same heal which would mean, once again, that if anything gets changed with Greater Heal it will effect thet other 2 classes also.......sheesh, its not hard to see that.
DW is no diff from C4, so what, you still have it.
Yes Tyrants use blunts, Fist Weapons have low crit and ++ accuracy, same properties as a blunt. Learn before you speak.
Guidence is guidence, good for everyone.
Yea your blind.
++ WIT your SE like everyone else and get % added to your rezzes. Your % Rez doesnt get you into a group, is your wife crying that people dont want her to Rez them? O yea when they are alive again they will ask for VR...
Vitalize isnt a buff. And yea it does Bleed/Poison/Heal, whats your point? i cant heal Paralysis.
What exactly are you trying to say about Party Recall? First you claim thats why EE's are 'better', then you say its just a perk, a fluff ability. Make up your mind.
Every Nuker worth their salt has -5 STR +4 CON, only costs 450k. NEVER have i been asked to give Decrease Weight, i normally ask the group is any1 is overweight because ppl wanna carry absurd amounts of SS.
Anyone who has a clue will tell you VR > Advanced Block unless its a non melee class like nukers, for which you STILL have Empower for....
Clarity was needed, now EE's are wanted. Nuff said.
EE's get Major heal because they are more so Healers then Buffers, changes have shown and PROVED (since SE DOESNT get it) that the Healer / Buffer line goes: Bishop / EE / SE / PP.
Resist shock is underpowered, not nearly as effective as you make out, i should know, ive seen its effectivness.
I dont need to tackle you with anything, your comments arent shrugging off the advantages an SE has.
Try not to compare Apples to Oranges, and Try Again, im waiting for something that isnt stupid.
Decrease Weight is the only buff my clan wants from me. ¬_¬: Gildran is evil.
Anyway, the notion that DW should somehow not be important is ridiculous. To sword and dual users it's actually more important than having Focus (which I do suppose comes off a staff too).
PS: Dance of Fire is not better than Deathwhisper 3 - they're equal.
There is only one thing worth refering to in this post:
Yes Tyrants use blunts, Fist Weapons have low crit and ++ accuracy, same properties as a blunt. Learn before you speak.
WRONG, its because they have no problem breaking 1000 attack speed, can you imagine if they had a normalized crit rate and accuracy rating with 1000+ attack speed?
Take your elven elder envy else where, sick of seeing it and if you cant see that any fix they do to Greater Heal wont benefit you also, then yeah, i must be the one who is blind here.
wanna know how much a lvl 60 SE heals for? 335, with a Bsps 515.
BS again. Over exactly the same time it takes to cast a GH without BSpS (not even counting the cast reuse time), you can cast two lvl 35 Battleheals 300+ HP each, without BSpS.
But of course you have forgot to add HoT part of an SE heals, and of course you have forgot to add 200+ HP per each x1 mob you kill due to VR 3.
If your going to quote me, quote the whole paragragph, you know the part you purposely left out that indicates we were talking about the "intial" heal from the Greater Heal.
I can repeat: you don't understand how healers work. If an EE or a SE care about the fastest placement of a good heal, they always start with Battleheal w/BSpS. Afer that they try to consider if more mana efficent heals will suffice.
The "initial" part of GH is almost irrelevant to a good SE, because:
1. The "initial" part of Battleheal lands faster.
2. Spamming Battleheal has the highest relatively safe (remember, you don't want to reaggro the whole train on you by spamming GH/GGH) overall HPS for an SE, both in C5 and in C4.
3. It is not so hard for a SE to keep their MP pool near maximum in grinding.
And there is another problem: you don't really understand how healers work, but are still trying to "balance" them.
What am i trying to balance out?
You seem to whine a lot about how an SE "cannot" heal in duo and how an EE is "better".
And one extra bit of trivia for you: did you know that EEs cannot cure Paralyze, while SEs can?
Did you know that only EE's can offer Resist Shock?
Have you tried it on yourself?
Resist Shock 4 gives only 40% more resistance to Shock. Which is -30% chance of stun landing. And the stun itself will usually wear out after one or two hits, while Paralyze won't.
By the way, we did pole trains of AoE-stunning mobs in your level range. Then I needed to go, and we invited an SE as a replacement. Do you think they noticed any change at the moment my buffs ended? Then think again :D
Its just dumb when SE's come and cry like they have been made useless when they are far from it. So dont try it here.
Like i said, i worded my thread wrong, i should of called it something about Greater heal because if its happening to my wifes SE, then the same thing will be happening to a Bishop OR EE, but there less liekly to notice it seeing they get stronger heals and a Bishop gets Greater Heal a few Tiers before EE / SE's do.
Point is i never meant to make it sound like i wanted SE's buffed and no one else, like i said, Greater Heal is shared between 3 classes, so if one is effect all 3 will be.
By the way, we did pole trains of AoE-stunning mobs in your level range. Then I needed to go, and we invited an SE as a replacement. Do you think they noticed any change at the moment my buffs ended? Then think again :D
Go to Apostate or Patriots and pull a full entire room with the Lilim Erant Knights in them and see how long you last.
Use a Destroyer, Dwarf or Warlord seeing they get Polearm Masteries and make sure everyone in the group is around lvl 60 with no Shock Resistance buff OR War Frenzy going, see how many times the tank gets stunned plus your entire melee DD in the group gets stunned from the AoE stun.
And to answer your question, yes i believe they would of noticed a difference because every chance i get i get a EE in my group and we goto Patriots or Apostate because if you know anything about Pole xping, the best xp ratio is within Green mobs, at lvl 60 im pulling in about 4 - 6% a buff run ( 20 mins ) doing it like this, and ive been pole xping since C2, so please spare me the lecture on how to pole.
One more thing, using a Bsps on battle heal at the beginning of a fight is a sure way to get agro, especially if the tank hasnt postioned themselves correctly and not hitting every mob in the group. Not that it really matters because when using a pole its not hard to control agro, in the cats that is of course, other areas where mobs arent social agro, its a totally different story.
By the way, i havent said anywhere that a EE heals better in a Duo then a SE, ive stated the entire time that Greater Heal needs fixing, im merely using a SE as my example which realistically, when you use a little brain power, doesnt make a difference because SE's and EE's both get Greater Heal at the same time, so their level in Greater Heal all through the game is the same, the difference Greater Empower adds at lvl 60 is 8 hp, yes thats right, 8 hp difference, a game breaker, watch out.
Also im refering to 3 - 4 person groups not duo thanks.
Like i said, i worded my thread wrong, i should of called it something about Greater heal because if its happening to my wifes SE, then the same thing will be happening to a Bishop OR EE, but there less liekly to notice it seeing they get stronger heals and a Bishop gets Greater Heal a few Tiers before EE / SE's do.
Greater Heal was nerfed intentionally, because the combination of Recharge, Emp, VR, GH, GGH, BH and Purify covered everything you might want to level. So, there were nothing really gained in getting a Bishop or an EE in levelling groups, especially after BRez and BSoE became common.
Like i said, i worded my thread wrong, i should of called it something about Greater heal because if its happening to my wifes SE, then the same thing will be happening to a Bishop OR EE, but there less liekly to notice it seeing they get stronger heals and a Bishop gets Greater Heal a few Tiers before EE / SE's do.
Greater Heal was nerfed intentionally, because the combination of Recharge, Emp, VR, GH, GGH, BH and Purify covered everything you might want to level. So, there were nothing really gained in getting a Bishop or an EE in levelling groups, especially after BRez and BSoE became common.
Bishops were and still are the stronger healers, they get all types of heals way before any other healing class and also a instant percentage heal which increases as they level.
They just didnt get anything to offer the group except for the group HP buff, cant remember the name of it now.
Still, there forcing people to group with bishops now, with no difference in risk vs reward, obviously you want a Bishop for taking on high level nasties, obviously you want great XP or drop rates from said nasties to compenstate for having such a large group in the first place, but NCsoft fail to see it like this and dont really give any incentive for large group play except comfort when fighting in war tagged areas if your clan is tagged with another. So once you look at it like this, no one cares for Bishops still and most will still run around with one outside of group healing just like they would pre C5.
EE's on the other hand have some better buffs now that everyone will want to take advantage of.
By the way, we did pole trains of AoE-stunning mobs in your level range. Then I needed to go, and we invited an SE as a replacement. Do you think they noticed any change at the moment my buffs ended? Then think again :D
Go to Apostate or Patriots and pull a full entire room with the Lilim Erant Knights in them and see how long you last.
Use a Destroyer, Dwarf or Warlord seeing they get Polearm Masteries and make sure everyone in the group is around lvl 60 with no Shock Resistance buff OR War Frenzy going, see how many times the tank gets stunned plus your entire melee DD in the group gets stunned from the AoE stun.
That's exactly what they did - in Patriots - for several hours with Resist Shock, and then for several hours without. They didn't even change the rooms.
One more thing, using a Bsps on battle heal at the beginning of a fight is a sure way to get agro, especially if the tank hasnt postioned themselves correctly and not hitting every mob in the group.
It doesn't really depend on BSpS... the main difference here is that the (first) heal with BSpS lands faster. The ability to split a train in emergencies is a bonus, though, especially if a tank does not have VR - but you need a really good healer to use it safely.
By the way, i havent said anywhere that a EE heals better in a Duo then a SE, ive stated the entire time that Greater Heal needs fixing, im merely using a SE as my example which realistically, when you use a little brain power, doesnt make a difference because SE's and EE's both get Greater Heal at the same time, so their level in Greater Heal all through the game is the same, the difference Greater Empower adds at lvl 60 is 8 hp, yes thats right, 8 hp difference, a game breaker, watch out.
If it wasnt for Empower and Vampric Rage, SE's would be a seriously lost class.
Yes, if it WERE NOT for those buffs. But the SE DOES have those buffs, which makes them balanced.
And I keep telling you that if all that makes a SE a balanced class is having these two buffs, then no SE needs to level past 58. Because then you have emp3 and vr3. So why level a SE as your main char to 76+ ? You don't get anything worthwhile...
My clan co-leader is an SE & are clan leader is a Sorc. The reason why his main is an SE is because of the regeneration he gives to the sorc, (and other clan nukers) the buffs he gives to help out the Prophet who doesn't have enough MP to buff a whole party, the heals he can provide when everyone in the group is taking on damage. An SE is still a very important character in a group, I would not want to be a nuker in a group without an SE. I don't even level my SH without an SE by my side & thats just me. :)
Not really, because Empower doesnt effect VR hp gain, it depends on how much damage is inflicted by the person you have VR on, so the higher the P'atk of the person you have it on, the more HP he saps from damage he does.
Besides your missing my point, its not about VR here, its about Greater Heal, both a SE and EE get Greater heal at the same level at the same time thats my point that , they stay the same all the way through. If you still cant see my point here, SE and EE's healing power when it came to Direct Healing potential were identical pre C5, VR doesnt add as much healing as you would think, in C5 we see the introduction of Major Heal which works the same as Pre C5 Greater Heal.
SE gets VR yes and a EE gets Major Heal now, but i think you will find that a direct heal will always work 100% better then a HP drain skill which is totally reliant of your damage dealt.
The only time VR really makes a noticeable difference is in polearm xp groups.
The only time VR really makes a noticeable difference is in polearm xp groups.
Had to laugh at that.
Well ok let me fix that, the only time you will notice VR in a big way is when using a Polearm and hitting 8+ mobs at once OR a Destroyer popping Frenzy + Rage + Zealot, he will never die, Gladiators do well with VR also.
Besides your missing my point, its not about VR here, its about Greater Heal, both a SE and EE get Greater heal at the same level at the same time thats my point that , they stay the same all the way through.
I did have time to play with "nerfed" GH and without new spellbooks to learn new skills. New GH didn't make an EE worse healer, just the opposite: my MP stayed for longer.
If you still cant see my point here, SE and EE's healing power when it came to Direct Healing potential were identical pre C5, VR doesnt add as much healing as you would think, in C5 we see the introduction of Major Heal which works the same as Pre C5 Greater Heal.
Wrong. EE was much better emergency healer in C4 than SE (if EE had enough MP, of course), SE was much better as a single healer to party over time. Nothing here changed in C5.
VR, as I already said, adds over 200 HP per x1 mob on your level.
SE gets VR yes and a EE gets Major Heal now, but i think you will find that a direct heal will always work 100% better then a HP drain skill which is totally reliant of your damage dealt.
VR works better in like 95% of time. Know why? Because it does not burn healers' MP like a direct heal does.
The only time VR really makes a noticeable difference is in polearm xp groups.
If your SE needs to heal your for over than 200 HP per x1 mob, sell your blunt and get a real weapon, like a 2-handed sword. You may want to buy the cheapest blunt just for stuns, though.
Well ok let me fix that, the only time you will notice VR in a big way is when using a Polearm and hitting 8+ mobs at once OR a Destroyer popping Frenzy + Rage + Zealot, he will never die, Gladiators do well with VR also.
You'll notice VR big time whenever your party tank is grad/dagger/destroyer/BD/SwS(with sword)/Tank(with sword). That's pretty much every time.
A player in group containing SwS and BD along with crit buffs can heal all the damage dealt by a single mob. That is, you don't need healing at all in such cases. Generally you heal only fraction of damage for 2+ mob pulls (wich are rendered a bit by proper root/transe application).
For example, my SE was in Apostate group consisting of BD, Tyrant and myself. We had only SE buffs. I had healed tank only 5 times a buff round (!).
There is no need for any healing for many cases. Healing pots and crowd control can do the thing. The best xp melee group contains WC, BD and SwS only. No outside buffers, no off-party healers, no nothing but these 3 classes and some gear. Do you see any greater heal here?
VR was and is ultimately powerful buff for melee fighters.
As for modern Greater Heal... I can live with it and I enjoy it very much.
Maxed Greater heal gives like 700 hp with bsps and adds like 500 hp over time. It's more than it did before, to be honest. By the time you grow in power you can spend mana on regular Heals.
If you have a prophet in your group, ask him/her to heal as well in case of need. It's not so hard for them to drop few heals here and there compensating your decrease in Greater Heal speed. Mana is not a problem here, by the way - you can recharge prophet for this.
If you have Bishop/EE in your group, don't hesitate to recharge him/her - they'll heal, you'll help in healing.
Balanced group includes BH as well as DDs, buffers and healers. Primary role for SE in this case is recharge - you recharge BH to keep spoil coming all the time. Another healer covers heals, and you spend only a small fraction of mp for buffs.
If I ever make it to Shilien Saint why is that in some cases I am working with Shilien Oracle heals?
Because it's clever to use them for making your party risk-free and effective.
You know, as bishop I always use cleric buffs like acumen, ww, holy weapon, concentration. I use Heal and Group Heal if needed. For example, archer in my group lost about 15% hp - here Greater Heal will produce overheal with increased mana consumption. Just drop Heal and he'll be at 99% hp.
I know many SEs who spam Greater Group Heal every time few groupmates were barely wounded. They just don't consider the possibility to use what is more appropriate for the situation.
By the way, quicker group healing (like when Angel on TOI 10 hits entire group badly) always consisted of 2 charged heals immediately following each other - Greater Group Heal and Group Heal. You cast it 1,5 times quicker than 2 Greater Group Heals, cause cooldown is neglected for 2 different spells.
Healing is always about mana management provided you keep your party safe. It was always very important for VR-incapable healers like bishop, EE, prophet (they are rather good healers for small parties BTW). It was really hard to keep party healed and buffed for cases without VR. Now it will be easier, since Greater Heal gives more if you fully use 15-sec HoT, and Major Heal costs 30% less than Greater Heal. That is, more groups will be able to hunt happily without VR buffer.
Thinkaboutitmuch
Major Heal cast and cooldown times are identical to Greater Heal ones (old and new). So it's quite quick.
If I ever make it to Shilien Saint why is that in some cases I am working with Shilien Oracle heals?
It is nothing unusual in mmorpgs that you use "old" skills in some situations because they are sufficient in power and using the high level skills would be "overkill". E.g. in WoW, priests often use lower skill level heals instead of the "big guns". And in L2, each skill has its own reuse timer - up to C5, EE often alternated between greater heal and vitalize when lots of healing was necessary.
To get around the reuse timer, you can "pulse" heals, e.g. greater heal-battle heal-greater heal or something like that. Or substitute battle heal with the standard heal. Actually that should be a good combination now - use a greater heal, then do standard heals while the HOT part of greater heal is still running. Saves quite a bit of mp and does not heal for much less.
If the party receives AOE damage, it is often better to just use the standard group heal instead of the GGH, because then everybody gets healed somewhat and can VR the rest back (especially if most of the time only one party member gets hit and the rest can VR in peace). In nasty AOE situations it's the same as with the single target greater heal - use GGH, then GH while the heal over time part is still running. Otherwise you spend mp for nothing, since the heal over time part gets overwritten.
And in pvp it is battle heal with an occasional GH or GGH anyway. Otherwise you just cannot heal enough hp/second as a SE.
I start to worry is 12 slots shortcut bar is enough for SE:
battle heal, heal, group heal, greater heal, greater group heal - that's 5, plus things like purify/cure poison, pickup, root, spiritshots, maybe some potions - hm that could be enough
Now bishop:
battle heal, heal, group heal, greater battle heal, greater heal, greater group heal, major heal, major group heal, vitalize - that's 9, plus maybe some pickup icon, shots, purify etc. - err, pretty tight :)
EE:
batle heal, heal, group heal, greater heal, major heal, vitalize - that should work too.
Battle Heal has faster speed, Group Heal has longer radius. When your job is to save people, every single bit helps :D
What if your job isn't to save people, but you have Heal skills to do it anyways.. can they still get mad at you, even if the healer didn't do it's job & they expect you to contribute? hehe is that confusing? it confused the heck out of me! :confused:
For example, if I heal a train puller running out of HP, I know what I'll do with the train later. If you start healing before me, I'll prolly find it safer just to send the whole group to the closest town. I don't know whom they will blame walking back :D
No small party requires an EE or bishop. My dwarf still does fine with his polearm at lvl 50s. The aoe stun almost never lands, and when it does, it breaks. In a 3 person party there is absolutely no need for an ee/bishop unless your SE is an idiot.
Wait this SE, your wife, she married you? Nevermind, that explains her troubles.
Alternating heals for mana efficiantcy is what healing is all about.
Just wanted to get it clear to myself that if Major Heal (cast/cooldown) = like Great Heal C4/C5 (cast/cooldown) then basically it seems to me that the EE and Bishop still have Greater Heal C4 style. NCsoft just renamed it to Major Heal with consumption of spirit-ores.
My party: WC, SE, BH, BD, SK, destro, sps. Holding 2 rooms in front of Saints. Levels are mostly midle 60th. SE helps buffing, heals (with little help from WC) and recharges. About the same as we did in C4..
Okay I wont bother reading through all 9 page but I went through the first 4 and deceided to skip a few pages. I dont know if anyone brought this up before, or how its been argued but this is my honnest oponion:
SE's were too much in demand.
Why have any other healer or buffer when you can have VR AND good heals?
SE's can cast VR & Empower, they can heal, they can buff almost all buffs (and rest can be found in pots), and they can recharge.
What more could a group ever ask for?
The answer: Nothing
Thats why other buffer/healers got left in the ditch in most parties (dont go pointing out exceptions and very high lvl parties - Im talking about the casual non 70+ player here, where the majority of the server population is at)
This change will make people realise that SE arnt "Uber Support Gods" anymore. If they dont want to change their playstyle to go to less dangerous ares, they will now need another healer. In my opinion this is a great change. It will let pure healers such as bishops and even EEs have a spot in a group where they would have previously been denied.
Options:
- Go to a less dangerous are and stick with only an SE
- Stay where you are and spam those pots thats are 50k a shot.
- Stay where you are and invite a Bishop or EE into the group
- For SEs either cope with the fact that your not "Uber Support Gods" anymore or reroll
I know his change is hard for all activaly played SEs out there and even for those of you who 2box one. But SEs where too much in demand. They were and still are garanteed a spot in EVERY group out there. This change just gives a chance to the rest of us.
Bishops is and will always be the #1 Healer
but because SEs have VR and could heal as good as Bishops the choice wasnt that hard for most parties
SEs was the best healer in all group cause of VR and same heals as EE/Bishop cause of empower (yes, empower add healpower)
in C4 at higer lvls it wasnt many HP diff between greater heals between healer classes at same lvl (not same lvl skill)
SE will always be the best class for nuker groups/duos (EMP/WM)
SE is great in archer groups for recharges
SE is nice in melee groups with a PP
EE can be in nuker group for recharge.. but u will need a SE of some kind..
EE is great in archer groups for recharges
EE is great in melee group with a WC/SE
yes it does make a huge difference. God, your like the worst player I've seen yet.
You know serioudly. waste your money on SS, waste your time on Lvling to die lose 4% or more...then have some one say want 20%...hell no!
not when you can get 85% rez from a EE...or 93% from a bishop. or 50% from a hall.
You must be a really low lvl dude to not understand how long it takes to get 4% at 60+...hell even at 55+ it sucks.
(no one in our party had a hero weapon)
so out goes your thery.
there is nothing wrong with GH on a SE.
Whats wrong is wrong that you fail to see the that SE have been wanted in parties far more then EE/bish. for far longer.
one of my friends said that she can't raid lvl 20-30 raids cause all they want are SO's.
God dman it dude, it's stupid [censored] like you that keep this game from geting any where.
This eppisode has made it so the best healers can be a healer and pick up a group. and not have to worry about losing a party cause every one wants a GD SE.
While I have my own SE, and I love the class...I would like to see more support and players..I think SE is just fine the way they are.
maybe they sould remove VR and emp from your SE....and maybe just maybe you sould party with other classes then just your SE all the time.
Its amazing how people can take things so out of context and its also amazing how bad peoples reading comprehension abilities are also. :eek:
word of advice, stop posting while your ahead!
Learn to read to get ahead, this is how hard it is for you to comprehend.
What ever they do to Greater Heal, if they do anything only benefits everyone who gets it, its not rocket science.
The reason you take it out of context is because you base your comparison with a 6 group party with a BD, TK, TH, SpS and WC, two of which were heros which one just happened to be the TK and you tried to compare that with my sceanrio of a 3 man party with a Warrior Tank, SE and PP........if you cant see the difference here, then yeah, your totally clueless and i cant believe you made it too lvl 74....the only reason you had no problems healing was because they killed the mob that fast you didnt have to worry about healing in the first place......mind you, im killing normal HP mobs that spilt into 7 mobs, given that yeah, the C5 mobs are alot stronger then C4 mobs, but what ever, my reasoning for posting was when i left the Frozen Lab because i had got all my Spell books i needed and went back to the cats to lvl and noticed a considerable difference.
Point is, im not doing anything out of the norm that i have been doing since Prelude, so you come here and tell me after 2 and a half years of gameplay i just need to totally rethink my entire group sceanrio and go else where to lower level mobs simply because a SE cant heal effciently like they used too?
I think the only person who understands it here is Mortova who sort of agrees that if he himself ( or herself ) was doing a 3 man group and he was main healing then he would have trouble also, if you dont put yourself in my shoes and you sit here and try to justify it with 6 - 9 man parties with BD's and SwS's and all this bs in the group, your not going to notice a thing simply because of what the rest of the party offers to the group in DD and utility.
The problem lies in low number parties, 3 and like i have been saying until my eyes bleed, it wouldnt matter if you used a SE, Bishop or EE with just Greater Heal, they also would see a problem, maybe not Bishops because if you take a lvl 60 Bishop, his Greater Heal is a higher lvl then a SE and EE anyways.
Get a group of 3 people around level 59 - 60, goto cats or the newer areas where mobs spilt into 7 or so, and try to kill contuinously using a SE as your main healer and a PP for buffs, sure the PP can back heal, and it tends to work ok, until your all out of mana........also use normal Armor +3 and a normal weapon +3, no OE to the hilt gear ethier.......OE'd weapons make a huge difference in a healers healing potential.
Or...you could add one more dd to your 3 man party, and kill just fine. You have a party structure problem...and just because it worked in the past doesn't mean it should work now.
Or...you could add one more dd to your 3 man party, and kill just fine. You have a party structure problem...and just because it worked in the past doesn't mean it should work now.
Ya, i could do that, and it would work ok if i had people around lvl 60 to group with.......not many clans before C5 were recruiting people, im not sure about now though. Most of the higher level clans i know of on Kain have been rerolling alts and leveling them up in the academy and doing all the work themselves instead of trying to recuit lower levels, which is fine and all, ive no problem with it but in that respect, i gotta wait for them to lvl upto around 60.......if they make it that far.
Nice try, bad excuse. My 50 WS solo's (pole) with VR and low level prophet buffs (stage 2)...no heals required. You have selected a hunting spot greater than your capacity...hence the mp issues. Just because you level stupidly doesn't mean SE's are worthless healers.
Nice try, bad excuse. My 50 WS solo's (pole) with VR and low level prophet buffs (stage 2)...no heals required. You have selected a hunting spot greater than your capacity...hence the mp issues. Just because you level stupidly doesn't mean SE's are worthless healers.
I think we covered all this in the dwarf thread luke......You know the one and level your noobie Dwarf to 60+ and come back and tell us about your pole xp experience? Oh but wait, you replied with, " i seen a guy do this and he told me that ", which seems all you know how to do, is run off hear say.
By the way, the mobs im fighting are light blue con / green, i suppose i should move to dark blues then, hmm?
65-70 is so notoriously bad for poling that even never having played with a polearm, have heard about it.
Catacombs are bad because of stunners/phys resist (might be different now - remember, new bag of tricks for the cata mobs), no other dungeon really has corners, and of course half HP mobs are as horrid as ever for melee AoE.
Horseshit. I pole on my Paladin...it just takes more than one polearm at these levels as mobs hp starts to skyrocket. Duo with a sws who has a pole, a gladiator, a bd, you're just trying to mass mobs without the appropriate party. Tainted is notorious for 7x pole parties. He was going about with his polearm on his WC before he even subbed. Pole on light blue mobs; same exp rate as everyone else because you're mass killing.
Yes we did cover the problem in the dwarf thread...you're clueless.
65-70 is so notoriously bad for poling that even never having played with a polearm, have heard about it.
Catacombs are bad because of stunners/phys resist (might be different now - remember, new bag of tricks for the cata mobs), no other dungeon really has corners, and of course half HP mobs are as horrid as ever for melee AoE.
why not just do the standard aoe spot, money room in lair? stack a few poles and proper buffs...pull the whole room, good xp.
SE will always be the best class for nuker groups/duos (EMP/WM)
Actually if I had the choice, I'd rather take a EE for a nuker duo/group, and a 52 SE logged out somewhere just for buffing empower. Because EE recharge + Clarity + PoW (ok, that's 78 :) ) + Trance + PR >>>> SE recharge+emp. And both have WM.
Just wanted to get it clear to myself that if Major Heal (cast/cooldown) = like Great Heal C4/C5 (cast/cooldown) then basically it seems to me that the EE and Bishop still have Greater Heal C4 style. NCsoft just renamed it to Major Heal with consumption of spirit-ores.
Am I off base here?
Major heal works the same as greater heal, yes. But major heal and especially major group heal heal for WAY more than the old greater heal, and the new skills also cost way less mp. Our Bishop does major group heals for 1700hp.
SE will always be the best class for nuker groups/duos (EMP/WM)
Actually if I had the choice, I'd rather take a EE for a nuker duo/group, and a 52 SE logged out somewhere just for buffing empower. Because EE recharge + Clarity + PoW (ok, that's 78 :) ) + Trance + PR >>>> SE recharge+emp. And both have WM.
Actually, if I had the choice, I'd level with 7 SH's and invite/drop a 78 BD, 78 SWS, 78 SE, 78 WC for buffs. Back in reality, a SH/SE combo should never run out of mp anyways...so the excess healing/recharging capacity of an EE is irrelevant.
SE will always be the best class for nuker groups/duos (EMP/WM)
Actually if I had the choice, I'd rather take a EE for a nuker duo/group, and a 52 SE logged out somewhere just for buffing empower. Because EE recharge + Clarity + PoW (ok, that's 78 :) ) + Trance + PR >>>> SE recharge+emp. And both have WM.
200 less patk than a warlord but way more pdef/mdef for pulling pytan room and passive resistances/holy weapon. Seems to make a great replacement when too many dwarves are busy trying to solo instead of build polearm parties which rock.
Sometimes I hunt with a bow, sometimes with a sword, sometimes with a pole...sometimes I primarily nuke with my banish skill. It's called being adaptive. Try it sometime.
Just wanted to get it clear to myself that if Major Heal (cast/cooldown) = like Great Heal C4/C5 (cast/cooldown) then basically it seems to me that the EE and Bishop still have Greater Heal C4 style. NCsoft just renamed it to Major Heal with consumption of spirit-ores.
Am I off base here?
Major heal works the same as greater heal, yes. But major heal and especially major group heal heal for WAY more than the old greater heal, and the new skills also cost way less mp. Our Bishop does major group heals for 1700hp.
This is my whole point, thank you for pointing it out Varaya.
Like i said, a Direct Heal is always going to be more powerful then VR + HoT effect, the fact that EE's / Bishops get a HoT ability now + Major heal is what SE's used to be like healing wise before C5 was out. Especially when you can cast the Major Heal for less mana and just as quick as Greater Heal can be cast.
Im not asking for SE's to get Major Heal here, im asking for Greater Heal to be looked at and balanced to be in line with Major Heal a little more, if they do anything to the skill it only makes EE's / Bishops all that much better, so why whine about it?
If the SE gets better heals, (or gets it's C4 healing power back) it will be capable of healing in locations like IT boss room, FoG etc (for high lvl examples). You don't need "the best" you need "what's necessary" to hunt in these dungeons. If you can get a more offensive buffer/recharger/healer in the same slot as the bishop, who cares if the heals are weaker. Heal me for 1700, heal me for 1300...both are more than enough to keep the party rolling. Weakening the SE as a healer is what made the bishop/ee necessary.
If the SE gets better heals, (or gets it's C4 healing power back) it will be capable of healing in locations like IT boss room, FoG etc (for high lvl examples). You don't need "the best" you need "what's necessary" to hunt in these dungeons. If you can get a more offensive buffer/recharger/healer in the same slot as the bishop, who cares if the heals are weaker. Heal me for 1700, heal me for 1300...both are more than enough to keep the party rolling. Weakening the SE as a healer is what made the bishop/ee necessary.
You are so illterate its just not funny Luke, where the [censored] do i say make SE's better at healing?
Im talking about GREATER HEAL here, you know, the ability that EE's and Bishops get also?
FYI,
I allready knew that Major Heal does better heals but to make sure I would not be shooting myself in the foot I had to get the conformation first.
Bishops/EE and SE all get Greater Heal but I guess we SE were too uber in the eyes of the developers (all second class skills).
So to make the other healer classes more interresting again they "nerfed" the Greater Heals.
To compensate it (I guess again) the Major Heals are the replacements to the Greater Heal + HoT.
This just feels to me that the SE/SSaint is to learn second class skills to have healing abilities but being forged more to use first class heals if the "sh_it hits the fan" while the EE/Bishop when played well might just be able use second class only heals.
Actually, if I had the choice, I'd level with 7 SH's and invite/drop a 78 BD, 78 SWS, 78 SE, 78 WC for buffs. Back in reality, a SH/SE combo should never run out of mp anyways...so the excess healing/recharging capacity of an EE is irrelevant.
If you DO duo with a SH. Sorc and SpS will run out of mp sooner or later, even in dream world where everybody is lvl 80. Usually after two buff rounds. Yes, of course SE+<any nuker> is good. But with sleep nerfed, why not take a EE with trance to stop adds, and eliminate downtime altogether? And in addition you have the nice PR in case some enemy gank party spots you duoing.
I'm not saying SE+nuker is bad. Of course it is not, it is a wonderful combination. But EE+Nuker+buffpet for emp3 is better, contrary to what many still believe. So if I was one of those powergamers who only look for the best exp/time instead of playing with friends, I'd look for a EE duo partner and bring my 2nd account along (come on, most serious L2 gamers have a second account with a buffer).
In PvE, whether or not your class brings VR to the board, is relevant to your capability as a healer - or if you will HP-up-keeper, which is essentially exactly what a healer does.
I am fully behind the PvE nerf for the SEs (it is not right that a hybrid should effectively out-perform the non-hybrids), and I'm equally still for giving the SE something to do in PvP (probably not healing) other than buffing Empower.
Like i said, a Direct Heal is always going to be more powerful then VR + HoT effect,
Have you ever tried to level without VR? How about pole groups without VR? Do you have any experience on the topic?
I have... Prophet - BH combo
Why?
To compare.
PP - BH combo is not the best to compare here, though, because its efficiency is mostly limited by BH's MP regen (provided that BH has a good weapon). But if you combine a BH with a healer who is also a recharger, you could easily see how powerful VR is.
Yes, and regeneration's utter worthlessness is part of the reason it's totally irrelevant to matters of healing. VR means around 100 HP on a good crit for a BD (half damage included), Regeneratoin means around 100 every five minutes.
If Regeneration were even half as powerful in HP-restored-over-time as VR, and complimented not gimp exp builds (high CON) but good exp builds (high STR, like VR), maybe it would enter teh debate also. However, it isn't.
Looking just at healing detatched from the ability to keep HP up is odd - because that's what healing's ultimate purpose is.
Yes, and regeneration's utter worthlessness is part of the reason it's totally irrelevant to matters of healing. VR means around 100 HP on a good crit for a BD (half damage included), Regeneratoin means around 100 every five minutes.
If Regeneration were even half as powerful in HP-restored-over-time as VR, and complimented not gimp exp builds (high CON) but good exp builds (high STR, like VR), maybe it would enter teh debate also. However, it isn't.
Looking just at healing detatched from the ability to keep HP up is odd - because that's what healing's ultimate purpose is.
Dont get me wrong here.
I myself am not that exsited about the efficientcy of the Regenaration skill I have on my Prophet either but it does function as a HP-up-keeper and that why I mentioned it. When a player actively hit mobs VR does do the job way better.
Regenaration should have a revamp skill-wise but maybe we will see that in C6.
Alternating heals for mana efficiantcy is what healing is all about.
Just wanted to get it clear to myself that if Major Heal (cast/cooldown) = like Great Heal C4/C5 (cast/cooldown) then basically it seems to me that the EE and Bishop still have Greater Heal C4 style. NCsoft just renamed it to Major Heal with consumption of spirit-ores.
Am I off base here?
There's a change - Major Heal takes up 30% less mp per cast while it's about 10% more effective than C4 style Greater Heal.
Plus is costs Sprit Ore to use, thats the apprant 'downside' to Major Heal. Meh.
Its not really a bad downside though considering if your playing with a Defensive tank and have groups like everyone mentions here with BD's, SwS's, TH's, SpS etc etc and so fourth, you really wouldnt need to cast major heal that much.
You would generate more money per hour then you would use in Spirit Ore thats for sure.
Stricktly said - no. I see reuse delay similar to the one of Greater Heal.
Nevertheless healing speed of combined heals (GH+MH) is better than the one of C4 style GH. But taking Vitalise into account, it's not important - you can always combine GH/MH/Vitalise to get decent healing speed, in most situations GBH is not needed.
Major Heals cooldown seems to be significantly less than Greater Heals. I know if I press the hotkey to recast Major Heal while I'm still in the middle of the first cast, I don't get the "Skill is being prepared for use" message, it just casts again as soon as the first cast is finished. Wheras doing the same for Greater Heal, I do get that message.
If the SE gets better heals, (or gets it's C4 healing power back) it will be capable of healing in locations like IT boss room, FoG etc (for high lvl examples). You don't need "the best" you need "what's necessary" to hunt in these dungeons. If you can get a more offensive buffer/recharger/healer in the same slot as the bishop, who cares if the heals are weaker. Heal me for 1700, heal me for 1300...both are more than enough to keep the party rolling. Weakening the SE as a healer is what made the bishop/ee necessary.
You are so illterate its just not funny Luke, where the [censored] do i say make SE's better at healing?
Im talking about GREATER HEAL here, you know, the ability that EE's and Bishops get also?
Time to put the pipe down.
Actually, your reading comprehension is the issue. If the SE is a viable healer (giving them ANY good heals that heal for 1k instantly) then there is no purpose to a Bishop. 1.7k heals? Who needs them?! 1k is fine and then I get better buffs. Win-Win...except for the bishop...who will be stuck soloin with might of heaven.
If the SE gets better heals, (or gets it's C4 healing power back) it will be capable of healing in locations like IT boss room, FoG etc (for high lvl examples). You don't need "the best" you need "what's necessary" to hunt in these dungeons. If you can get a more offensive buffer/recharger/healer in the same slot as the bishop, who cares if the heals are weaker. Heal me for 1700, heal me for 1300...both are more than enough to keep the party rolling. Weakening the SE as a healer is what made the bishop/ee necessary.
You are so illterate its just not funny Luke, where the [censored] do i say make SE's better at healing?
Im talking about GREATER HEAL here, you know, the ability that EE's and Bishops get also?
Time to put the pipe down.
Actually, your reading comprehension is the issue. If the SE is a viable healer (giving them ANY good heals that heal for 1k instantly) then there is no purpose to a Bishop. 1.7k heals? Who needs them?! 1k is fine and then I get better buffs. Win-Win...except for the bishop...who will be stuck soloin with might of heaven.
Couldnt have said it better, this short statement explains the whole truth of it.
Sure it's stated in a way easier to grasp but it introduces a bias.
If 1k heal is "enough" then we can begin to compare on an "enough or not" basis.
And I can assure that at level 65 in catas an SE is more than enough to buff AND heal a 4 ppl grp.
Could the bishop cope ? Surely but we would surely kill more slowly.
Would a prophet fit ? We wouldn't kill any slower for sure but could he heal a 3 mob aggro and not require downtime ? Not sure!
Would a prophet fit ? We wouldn't kill any slower for sure but could he heal a 3 mob aggro and not require downtime ? Not sure!
Nope. Nor can a prophet cover heals in an IT room. The bias for healers is always, "Which healer will help me get the most exp in the next hour (or 4)?" It is NOT "which healer puts the biggest number up when he pushes a button."
Would a prophet fit ? We wouldn't kill any slower for sure but could he heal a 3 mob aggro and not require downtime ? Not sure!
Nope. Nor can a prophet cover heals in an IT room. The bias for healers is always, "Which healer will help me get the most exp in the next hour (or 4)?" It is NOT "which healer puts the biggest number up when he pushes a button."
And to pull this whole entire debate back onto the rails, all that needs to be done to fix Greater Heal is have the HP regeneration part of the heal effected by Bsps, thats it.
Why you keep thinking people want a 1k heal back is beyond me Luke, you should really learn to read cause no where has anyone asked for it, not even in all my posts including the OP, have i asked for SE's to be returned to the way they were and your forgeting one small minor detail, ITS NOT ABOUT SE's, its about Greater Heal ffs.
Also the fine tuning aspects i suggested in the OP almost everyone has aggreed with, but im guessing you have never even played a SE at high level, sort of like your lvl 50 dwarf and you try to compare his pole experiences with people 65+.......
Greater Heal doesnt need to be fixed because it isnt broken, I think thats the point. You never directly state what you say so please tell us directly what you want to happen so it can be shot down right away. You want more healing power, they dont deserve it because real healers need to have use, end of the story.
Greater Heal doesnt need to be fixed because it isnt broken, I think thats the point. You never directly state what you say so please tell us directly what you want to happen so it can be shot down right away. You want more healing power, they dont deserve it because real healers need to have use, end of the story.
Ive stated many times where Greater Heal can be improved to benefit everyone and not push anyone out, many people have also aggreed with me, you not knowing how to read is not my problem how ever.
Says the Paladin who likes to use a polearm and says 200 P.atk when using a Pole isnt much difference not to mention they get 0 ( zero ) Polearm Masteries meaning you can hit what is it? 5 mobs max?
I notice you say you played a 7x SE, i bet you didnt level it though did you.......didnt think so, big difference in knowing how a character has performed all through the tiers compaired to how you played a 7x leveled up toon.
Says the Paladin who likes to use a polearm and says 200 P.atk when using a Pole isnt much difference not to mention they get 0 ( zero ) Polearm Masteries meaning you can hit what is it? 5 mobs max?
I notice you say you played a 7x SE, i bet you didnt level it though did you.......didnt think so, big difference in knowing how a character has performed all through the tiers compaired to how you played a 7x leveled up toon.
Sounds like you have Warlord envy to me Luke.
I rarely pole except when making a pole party...with many toons that have pole mastery amongst others. You still need a BD and SWS to do it properly...just like any good melee pt. I've played an SE 1-40, mid 50s, and 68-70s. I also seem to still be able to go exp with the class as a healer...unlike you...because you're ******ed.
Greater Heal doesnt need to be fixed because it isnt broken, I think thats the point. You never directly state what you say so please tell us directly what you want to happen so it can be shot down right away. You want more healing power, they dont deserve it because real healers need to have use, end of the story.
Ive stated many times where Greater Heal can be improved to benefit everyone and not push anyone out, many people have also aggreed with me, you not knowing how to read is not my problem how ever.
I've posted and been in this thread since the start, you have only been vague. Also, you being an real jerk IS something you can fix.
Actually, the actual "arguement" presented regarding boosting greater heal, is pretty weak also.
Lots of spells dont benefit from bsps in any way at all apart from cast speed, ie: recharge,purify,chant of life, buffs.
I'd say be thankful you can at least boost greater heals instant portion from 450 to 750 via bsps, rather then complaining that u cant boost the dot. And if you really think its still not worthwhile, then just dont use the bsps, loose a potential 300 hp, and cast it like a snail. The choice is there....... end of arguement.
Actually, the actual "arguement" presented regarding boosting greater heal, is pretty weak also.
Lots of spells dont benefit from bsps in any way at all apart from cast speed, ie: recharge,purify,chant of life, buffs.
I'd say be thankful you can at least boost greater heals instant portion from 450 to 750 via bsps, rather then complaining that u cant boost the dot. And if you really think its still not worthwhile, then just dont use the bsps, loose a potential 300 hp, and cast it like a snail. The choice is there....... end of arguement.
I thank you for staying on track with your reply, how ever, yes you are correct that there is alot of skills out there that do not gain any effect except for pure cast speed when using Bsps, but we are talking about a skill that used to get a full effect from a Bsps pre C5.
If they wont fix it so that a Bsps adds to the dot effect, then taking the Bsps effect away from Major heal lines is balancing it out is it not? Just make a Bsps effect a Major Heals casting speed and nothing else.
True, healing without shots just doesn't work. I think every decent healer knows that.
Thats exactally right, but they shouldnt have to spam Bsps to get the job done ethier.......
Do you think that VR + Greater Heal can heal the same amount over the same amount of time as what Major Heal + Greater Heal can? Now keep in mind, i dont want a Greater Heal + VR effect to be as effective as Major Heal, but i expect the gap to be closed up between them.
Without having a program that can parse the amount of healing say over a 1 hour period that VR + Greater Heal can do compaired to Major Heal + Greater Heal i cant be 100% sure, but i can be 99% sure and say that no VR + Greater Heal wouldnt come anywhere close to it.....
Major heal is a different spell - BSpS and MAtk have never affected DoTs (although they probably should), so as far as being consistant is concerned, it makes no sense to make BSpS affect it.
SEs finally took the PvE hit they needed. The only problem now is that that still leaves them as utterly incapable PvP buffers/healers, which is of course problematic - but has nothing to do with this.
Major heal is a different spell - BSpS and MAtk have never affected DoTs (although they probably should), so as far as being consistant is concerned, it makes no sense to make BSpS affect it.
Yes true it should.
Major heal on the other hand isnt all that different then C4 Greater Heal apart form it heals for more, refreshs faster.
SEs finally took the PvE hit they needed. The only problem now is that that still leaves them as utterly incapable PvP buffers/healers, which is of course problematic - but has nothing to do with this.
I've aggreed with anyone who has stated that SE's needed a hit to thier healing potential, but what they have done here in reguards to small grouping content is a little too much imho.
Lets not focus this solely on SE's as 3 classes also get Greater Heal and i would suspect that even EE's who dont get Major Heal until 58 would feel a sting from this also.
Let me go one better in my previous post above this in reguards to healing potential over any given amount of time and say, how do you think Major Heal + Greater Heal + VR would work out?
Or this one, Major Heal + Greater Heal + VR + Percentage Heal?
And none of these sceanrios require a SE what so ever for VR ethier.........
Don't compare the performance of a single SE to that of two other classes. ;)
Not really it only requires one class same as when using a SE, most grind groups have WC at high level from buffs anyhow seeing they can do most of the important buffs that a PP + SE can, then you simply add a EE or Bish into thos sceanrios i pointed out above, add to the fact that a BD also has VR that stacks with the WC VR and why do you need a SE again?
But im refering to small groups fo 3 - 4, not 6 - 9. :)
You get a WC or a BD for VR... and then you get a EE or Bish.
You don't need an SE, no. You don't need an EE either. Or a bishop. Or a WC. Or a prophet. Or a gladiator. Or a plainswalker. Or...
The only classes that have the somewhat doubtful status of being "needed" are swordsingers, bladedancers, elemental summoners and warlocks. It's the exception, not the rules.
If they wont fix it so that a Bsps adds to the dot effect, then taking the Bsps effect away from Major heal lines is balancing it out is it not? Just make a Bsps effect a Major Heals casting speed and nothing else.
Depends what you mean by "balancing" , if you mean having SE> every other healer , just as it was in c2,c3,c4, then I'd agree....but I doubt thats what was intended by these changes.
And as to why would they would suddenly "fix" dots to heal for double via bsps, effectively doubling healing power for all orc casters, just because a SE is no longer a godly single healer, I cant see that happening either.
You get a WC or a BD for VR... and then you get a EE or Bish.
You don't need an SE, no. You don't need an EE either. Or a bishop. Or a WC. Or a prophet. Or a gladiator. Or a plainswalker. Or...
The only classes that have the somewhat doubtful status of being "needed" are swordsingers, bladedancers, elemental summoners and warlocks. It's the exception, not the rules.
There are still groups you fare well in.
Yep and im not saying there isnt groups i dont fare well in, but what i am saying is that when you compare the healing potential over any given amount of time now, there is a huge difference now, bigger then intended i feel.
Lets look at it like this:
SE = Greater Heal + VR
EE = Greater Heal + Vitalize + Major Heal
Bish = Greater Heal + Greater Battle Heal + Vitalize + Major Heal + Major Group Heal + Percentage Heal
Now seeing as everyone throws VR in there for some unknown reason, like i've pointed out, a SE isnt even needed for VR and you can use a WC + BD for VR that stacks.....
You get a WC for buffs + VR, a BD is almost always a requirement for anything worth doing at higher plus they also add to the effect of VR with their own VR type song and a EE / Bish for heals.
In C4 there was a ok balance in healing potential, there was a SE who could buff + heal, a EE could high percent rez + utility + heal and a Bishop could could buff HP + best healer / cure in the game.
Now if people want to try and justify it with there min / max group set ups, then thats not my problem, because thats not how i play, if i have a spare spot in my group, any class is welcome.
You said it yourself, its the exception, not the rules. :)
And as to why would they would suddenly "fix" dots to heal for double via bsps, effectively doubling healing power for all orc casters, just because a SE is no longer a godly single healer, I cant see that happening either.
Why not? They allow the use of Empower to effect both Direct Damage spells and DoTs, so why not have Bsps effect Direct Heals and HoT heals?
In C4 a party of 9 could use a SE instead of a Bishop for strain healing. It wasn't as good, but it was doable. Now this has been removed so that the SE can't perform in these situations and it is up to the EE/Bishop.
Whatever you change, the SE has to be incapable of keeping a party of 9 properly healed.
But you do need it for EMP...not that you want to ever remember things like that. It's still the perfect duo for nukers. Its still the perfect small pt buffer.
There was no balance pre-C5 in PvE heal capability, EEs and Bishops could not keep a group going without an outside buffers, SEs could.
Your forgeting one thing, a SE isnt a main party buffer at higher levels WC is. This was Pre C5 and even now, more so now because of Major Heal.
No one has answered my questions reguarding those sceanrios ethier, everyone just beating around the bush and dodging it because they no that:
Greater Heal + Major Heal + VR is better then Greater Heal + VR by itself.
And again i cannot not emphasis enough that you do not need a SE for VR.
Sigh...I've been trying to stay out of this topic.
NO!!!!!!! A WC IS NOT A HIGH LEVEL HEALER! (I know you said High Level Buffer...which is accurate, but invalidates the whole rest of your argument as a result).
A WC is, in fact, not a healer at all, WHICH IS WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT. He's a hybrid DD/Buffer with a cute HoT.
BECAUSE OF THIS THE WC IS NOT NOW, NOR EVER WILL BE A REPLACEMENT FOR AN SE.
It's like comparing a BD and a SK...they don't do the same thing, and they weren't meant to.
An SE isn't required for VR...that's true...but they still have it and they still play a major role in today's party. Sure, an EE and a SE is better than either one alone...two heads are better than one still...but one head is capable of doing the job still (although it seems some of us are having a hard time grasping that in this instance) :mad:
An SE is just fine solo for small group PvE...was before C5...is in C5. They have never been ideal for group PvP because of their lackluster cast speed and lack of PR and/or fast resses, AGAIN 1 healer period is not ideal for large parties ever.
Maline isn't forgetting anything...she's 100% correct. If you have a buffer and a healer great. If you have to take one or the other then you still take the SE.
I know, I am one...which means I don't have to guess, and theorize based on what I've read.
We don't do group mobs well anymore with the change to heal....it's unfortunate, but not the end of the world.
By this I mean that where 5 levels ago at 72 I could keep a party of 5 healed with ease...without using even half my mana when fighting 2-3 groups of frenzied stakatos at once, I now, at 77, have trouble maintaining enough mana to hold much more than one group...the amount of damage a player takes in that situation means that everytime I cancel my own HoT because I have to recast takes a huge toll on my mana pool.
I do significantly BETTER at places like the Wall of Argos or the Ketra Orc Outpost than I did before because we're only fighting one mob at a time...and in these instances, the partial heal in addition to the HoT is MUCH more effective.
THIS IS FOR ALL OF YOU FOLK THAT HAVE REFUSED TO BE CREATIVE WITH YOUR PLAYSTYLE SINCE THE C5 CHANGE!!
Use regular old Heal! If you know beyond a doubt that you're going to have to recast before your greater heal has a chance to be fully effective, go with the cheaper Heal and/or Battle Heal. Instant return is about the same with BSpS, and the mana cost is a good bit less.
Works beautifully.
There you have it...2 > 1 so it still stands to reason that two healer/buffers might, just maybe, be more effective than just 1...novel idea I know but just go with it...and use regular heal when you know greater heal isn't going to work as well as you'd like.
Case Closed. The End.
SE's you can officially come out of hiding and be loved again.
There was no balance pre-C5 in PvE heal capability, EEs and Bishops could not keep a group going without an outside buffers, SEs could.
Your forgeting one thing, a SE isnt a main party buffer at higher levels WC is. This was Pre C5 and even now, more so now because of Major Heal.
No one has answered my questions reguarding those sceanrios ethier, everyone just beating around the bush and dodging it because they no that:
Greater Heal + Major Heal + VR is better then Greater Heal + VR by itself.
And again i cannot not emphasis enough that you do not need a SE for VR.
Sigh...I've been trying to stay out of this topic.
NO!!!!!!! A WC IS NOT A HIGH LEVEL HEALER! (I know you said High Level Buffer...which is accurate, but invalidates the whole rest of your argument as a result).
A WC is, in fact, not a healer at all, WHICH IS WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT. He's a hybrid DD/Buffer with a cute HoT.
BECAUSE OF THIS THE WC IS NOT NOW, NOR EVER WILL BE A REPLACEMENT FOR AN SE.
This is a perfect example of peoples reading comprehension disabilities, no offence Tsadkiel, but you really need to read that again, because no where have i said that a WC is a repleacement for a SE, my point here was that WC adds VR to a group the same as a SE and he also adds the same buffs a SE does in reguards to the ones that everyone seems to think that SE's are wanted for parties.
This thread has nothing to do with WC healing potential because i dont see their healing potential as a threat to anyones main healing role, ie: Bishop / EE.
This is soley about the healing potential over any given amount of time in reguards to: ( rehashing seeing as some people are still slightly confused about what we are talking about here )
Sceanrio 3 = Greater Heal + Greater Battle Heal + Vitalize + Major + Major Group Heal + Percentage Heal + VR
Now, ill say this again, yet again for the 100th time, i do not want or expect Greater Heal + VR to compare on the same healing percentage as Greater Heal + Major Heal + Vitalize + VR, but the void in between the two sceanrios needs to be adjusted because i feel they are more then intended.
You dont even have to test it too know that there is a huge void there in between Scearnio 1 and 2.......
But you do need it for EMP...not that you want to ever remember things like that. It's still the perfect duo for nukers. Its still the perfect small pt buffer.
Luke......still beating around the bush i see, how exactally does Empower help healing potential?
Short answer - It does nothing for healing potential, its a caster offensive buff, nothing more.
Not that i ever had to even mention that.......
I tell you what though, you got something right thats for sure, it is the perfect nukerduo and the perfect small party buffer to a certain extent, seeing a WC still is even better then a SE for small parties seeing you dont need a PP for Acumen + Zerk seeing the WC has it plus VR, only thing the party misses out on is Empower. I notice you fail to mention that it can still heal a small party, even if its not very effcient on their mana anymore.
Seeing as you love to talk about perfectly formed groups Luke, these groups physical damage output reguardless of wether the mob is strong vs physical is that fast and heavy that there is almost no point for a caster even being in the group at all which is why majortiy of the casters run around with a SE in toe and solo with the SE out of party. If the caster doesnt cast on the original pull, then there is just no point in him casting at all, and you kill mobs that quick that the caster would have to spam his nukes that quick that not only he would run out of mana but the SE would also run dry from doing nothing but constantly recharging.
But, again, this has nothing to do with healing potential, Empower does nothing for healing potential what so ever.
An SE plays in groups where a [Bishop/EE] + [WC/PP] combo is not available, or too cumbersome due to group size.
That's the answer to your question.
This makes no sense MalineII, because if you have lets say for example a WC / PP + EE in the group you have both healing and buffs and if you have a WC / PP + Bishop you have even better healing + buffs, so.......how exactally is the group becoming too cumbersome when two spots need to be taken up for buffs and healing in any normalized circumstance anyway?
Not every clan always has a WC and an EE or bishop available. Some groups do not need more than the SE has to offer.
In those groups, it's no problem to just go ... well, with the SE.
It would be lovely if there were a spot as a secondary buffer/healer in groups for SEs, but it would also be lovely if EEs or Bishops could keep a group alive on their own, wouldn't it? But even a small one will be a drain on MP without VR. Your raging as if your class had been effectively removed from grouping is plain out inappropriate. It was too strong, it has been fixed.
Demand a fix in a broken area, instead of complaining about a justified nerf (i.e. get something done about the PvP).
Not every clan always has a WC and an EE or bishop available. Some groups do not need more than the SE has to offer.
In those groups, it's no problem to just go ... well, with the SE.
It would be lovely if there were a spot as a secondary buffer/healer in groups for SEs, but it would also be lovely if EEs or Bishops could keep a group alive on their own, wouldn't it? But even a small one will be a drain on MP without VR. Your raging as if your class had been effectively removed from grouping is plain out inappropriate. It was too strong, it has been fixed.
You said it best, its the exception, not the rules remember. In my personal experience, every clan has a few WC's, EE's and Bishops, clans worth their salt of course.
Again, you keep refering to SE's, the only class with VR, wrong, 2 other classes get it also.
Demand a fix in a broken area, instead of complaining about a justified nerf (i.e. get something done about the PvP).
Well in PvP SE's have much more to offer then just healing, so no i dont think anything needs to be done about a SE's ability to offer PvP anything because Empower on Casters alone is a huge bump in PvP, and we all know too well how many casters turn up to Seiges / War tagged fights dont we....
None of this still has anything to do with gap between healing potential in the sceanrios i offered which no one can justifie it simple because they know just by looking at it, that nothing can compare to it or comes remotely close to it.
Theres no void between 1 and 2. (You forgor Greater Group Heal btw). Vamperic Rage is an SE's main heal in this Game. Sure its a buff, but its something different. You keep saying WC's are far better but i still see a million and three SE's LFG and getting grouped, and people shouting GLF SE.
Without VR in the group, healers use a TON of more MP on Healing then they normally would, that is what makes the SE so great, they dont NEED to use Heal alot, so the Greater Heal is ENOUGH.
SE's arent having better heals, they have freakin good ones as it is, Vamp rage IS their heal. Again, WC's get it, so what? I dont see half as many WC's as i do SE's. And SE's continue to get grouped and asked to be grouped JUST AS MUCH AS IN C4. You cant count the BD, VR At 74 isnt an argument against VR from lvl 30.
People will still take an SE or WC first before looking for a healer. You just need to BE that SE LFG. If your so sad about the way things are, please quit and stop pointlessly commenting on peoples posts with your own fruitless argument, i dont know where your getting this crap from, really.
Once again, let me pull this back onto the rails, its about healing potential here and Mortova is correct here, i left a few heals out, but to simplifie it to avoid any confusion, then yeah, lets fix that shall we:
Sceanrio 2 = Greater Heal + Greater Group Heal + Vitalize + Major Heal + VR
Scearnio 3 = Greater Heal + Greater Battle Heal + Greater Group Heal + Major Heal + Major Group Heal + Vitalize + Percentage Heal + VR
Now the reason i didnt add Greater Group heal in here is because it doesnt stack with Greater Heal....pretty simply really when you think about it, they overwrite each other.
So yeah, there must'nt be any void at all in healing potential over any given amount of time between sceanrio 1 and 2......i must be....full of crap so to speak.
Wasnt it you yourself who said even if you had to heal a small group as a EE would have trouble keeping up Mortova, i believe it was, and also, ask any EE under 58 who hasnt yet got Major Heal how well he / she does in healing potential now.......
Now ill finish off with your fruitless point about VR from a BD doesnt count? Since when? It stacks with SE and WC's VR so how doesnt it count? Why doesnt it count? Because its lvl 74.......hmmm last i checked, majority of the people comparing their opinions here were 74+.......i think you may have missed that Mortova.
Once again, let me pull this back onto the rails, its about healing potential here and Mortova is correct here, i left a few heals out, but to simplifie it to avoid any confusion, then yeah, lets fix that shall we:
Sceanrio 2 = Greater Heal + Greater Group Heal + Vitalize + Major Heal + VR
Scearnio 3 = Greater Heal + Greater Battle Heal + Greater Group Heal + Major Heal + Major Group Heal + Vitalize + Percentage Heal + VR
I'm still confused as to why you include VR in scenario 2 and 3. You're comparing the skills of two classes, against the skills of one. You're assuming (I guess) that a WC will be present for the EE and Bishop, but what if they're grouped with a Prophet? Also I don't know why you have Greater Group Heal in scenario 2, at first I thought it was a WC+EE combo, but EE don't get GGH.
Sure, in a short period of time, an SE won't heal as much as a Bishop, or EE. However over a long period of time, for the amount of MP used an SE heals a lot more. I've certainly noticed that when an SE joins my groups, I drop from having to heal after every one or two mobs, to having to heal only when the tank manages to get a fair number of adds.
Let's put it this way, an SE is the most MP efficient healer (for all but nukers/archers), they can keep a group going the longest. However in a very dangerous situation they can't keep a group alive quite as well as a Bishop or EE (although if there are lots of AoE mobs, they might be better than EE). Do SE think that's a fair trade?
I've certainly found that Greater Heal is enough for me in most situations, it's only when the tank doesn't bother thinking and pulls half a room that Major Heal seems to be needed.
Edit:
Just on the point of groups, where do most people go when in small groups? When there's only one healer/buffer in our groups we rarely go to catas/necro. In those cases it's better to go to places like WoA, then any SE/EE/Bishop should be able to handle buffs and heals. Although of course in these cases SE is a lot better.
You said it best, its the exception, not the rules remember. In my personal experience, every clan has a few WC's, EE's and Bishops, clans worth their salt of course.
Again, you keep refering to SE's, the only class with VR, wrong, 2 other classes get it also.
Yes, 74 BDs get a version of it, as do WCs. No, every clan does not have a bunch of WCs waiting to party. No, every group does not have an oop SE with emp and VR to compliment an ee or bishop. You act as if a group without an SE always has VR. My clan's only buffers are prophets, prophet 2boxes, bishop, ee 2box, and SE 2box. If the SE could heal from the 2box, we wouldn't need the bishop and he would never get groups.
It's simple, SE's have to exist for parties because they have empower for nukers which 70% of the server dd's are nukers. So if you have 3 nukers in a group, you have to bring an SE. The SE can both buff and recharge. Now you need a healer, but if the SE could heal, you wouldn't need it. A nuker with BTM could just as easily keep his mp up. The VR can keep the melee in the pt from dying quickly, and the SE heals fill in the target getting pounded on too much.
This already works now in C5, but the SE's weaker healing do create greater risk...but then we don't have to bring an extra person in exchange. The Bishop/EE offer no useful buffs; I don't have room for advanced block and this garbage nor do I need them with a true healer in pt...we need as much damage as possible to earn more exp. Tanks in a full party that aren't in a mass spawn room take zerk to just add a little extra damage and killspeed. If the SE is remotely capable as a healer, they offer more than the Bishop/EE can bring to the party, and groups will look for SE's instead of bishop/ee. If there is no drastic difference, you take the class that can better multitask and increase your exp/hr more effectively. If the SE isn't a crappy "oh ***" healer, then there is no reason for the bishop/ee to exist.
Hey, this game takes people grouping to MAKE 74, its not all about 74+ Content, there are FAR MORE people who HAVENT made it that far yet. Yes i plan to, but no, ive never expeirenced a BD's VR because SO FEW are 74+, though ill admit the numbers are rising.
And EE doesnt have Greater Grp Heal btw, if your saying Scene 2 is an EE / WC Combo. EE's under 58 group with people who already have a buffer btw. Thats how they cope, my clannie (our only other EE who i give advice to whos about Lv 54) doesnt have Major heal and knows when shes invited into a party, to check for a buffer, or tell the party it would be wise to look. Get an SE and she doesnt have to do much at all, maybe throw in a G.Heal (Heal gained 429 with BSPS she says, she also says her old heal with bsps was like 635) when a few mobs have been pulled by accident, and hey, accidents happen, you cant control them.
Again, VR is an SE's main heal, it just comes in a Buff form.
Well, the thing is, nukers are always available - there are many, many more nukers than rechargers, and I've yet to meet a nuker without BtM who wasn't happy for having a recharger along.
Of course there are more exciting ways to play - but that requires knowing the right people. I know a few who don't mind downtime from me not doing the sitstanddance and instead hitting things.
We searched for a BD a total of 4 hrs tonight. A BD is a popular class too. Only ones were 40-44 subclasses. Too bad the aoe's in MoS would one hit them..
Once again, let me pull this back onto the rails, its about healing potential here and Mortova is correct here, i left a few heals out, but to simplifie it to avoid any confusion, then yeah, lets fix that shall we:
Sceanrio 2 = Greater Heal + Greater Group Heal + Vitalize + Major Heal + VR
Scearnio 3 = Greater Heal + Greater Battle Heal + Greater Group Heal + Major Heal + Major Group Heal + Vitalize + Percentage Heal + VR
I'm still confused as to why you include VR in scenario 2 and 3. You're comparing the skills of two classes, against the skills of one. You're assuming (I guess) that a WC will be present for the EE and Bishop, but what if they're grouped with a Prophet? Also I don't know why you have Greater Group Heal in scenario 2, at first I thought it was a WC+EE combo, but EE don't get GGH.
Sorry yes my bad on Greater Group heal in Scearnio 2, just so used to typing it out. Keep in mind one thing to those who think Greater Group heal adds to the healing potential over any given amount of time in the eyes of a SE, Greater Heal and Greater Group Heal DO NOT stack, they overwrite each other, so if you have a group with less then 5 members in it, its a waste of time using Greater Group heal all together, unless of course everyone is eating some really nasty AoE and there all close to death, which in my 65 levels has never happened in respect to small group content.
Id like to thank you on being the only one who has asked the question Larielle and ill respond to this post only because im sick to death of going around around the garden like a teddy bear with whats being said here and rehashing 20+ times to keep it on track.
The reason im adding VR into those sceanrios is because alot of people here seem to think that SE's are the only ones who can add VR to a group. You will notice that when i started to add in that WC and BD can add VR also, everyone changed their tune quick smart, not that that it was a secret or anything, just people try to corner people into a corner by trying a one sided view only, which in this case is, SE's have VR end of story.
Considering that even if you have a decently formed party there is always going to be a Buffer and a Healer, in these sceanrios there is a Buffer and a Healer, just like would go in in any normalized game play. People who are still following this discussion will know that it doesnt always have to equate to a WC in these sceanrios for VR in Sceanrios 2 and 3.
Reguardless of wether the group makes you put your buffer out of group or in group, this is the exception, not the rules, your quite happy to move on if you dont like a groups formation.
Sure, in a short period of time, an SE won't heal as much as a Bishop, or EE. However over a long period of time, for the amount of MP used an SE heals a lot more. I've certainly noticed that when an SE joins my groups, I drop from having to heal after every one or two mobs, to having to heal only when the tank manages to get a fair number of adds.
Yes, i will agree with you that VR adds to a the HP-up-keeper like we discussed earlier on before it all got derailed, but just keep in mind that if you had a WC join the group, you would also notice the same effect.
Let's put it this way, an SE is the most MP efficient healer (for all but nukers/archers), they can keep a group going the longest. However in a very dangerous situation they can't keep a group alive quite as well as a Bishop or EE (although if there are lots of AoE mobs, they might be better than EE). Do SE think that's a fair trade?
I would of defiently agree'd with this pre C5, but now after C5 i wouldnt go as far as saying that SE's are the most effcient healer in terms of mana consumed to keep a tank / party healed though.
VR is great, no doubt, but its not that great, especially when fighting mobs that have high chances to stun / paralysis, you arent healing yourself while standing there stunned, and as we all know, majority of the mobs after 58 in this game all have some type of stun / paralysis or debuff in them, wether it be parties or solo mobs.
I've certainly found that Greater Heal is enough for me in most situations, it's only when the tank doesn't bother thinking and pulls half a room that Major Heal seems to be needed.
Exactaly my point here, SE's while having VR is great, when things get rough dont have a Major Heal to fall back on.
Many reasons it can get rough sometimes for reasons unforseen, like trains or getting PK'ed in the middle of a polearm xp group or like you have pointed out, tank gets sloppy and decides to do something stupid.
Edit:
Just on the point of groups, where do most people go when in small groups? When there's only one healer/buffer in our groups we rarely go to catas/necro. In those cases it's better to go to places like WoA, then any SE/EE/Bishop should be able to handle buffs and heals. Although of course in these cases SE is a lot better.
This was my whole reason for posting this to begin with, like ive said, ive been poling since beginning of C2 after i quite my Tyrant. Im not doing anything out of the ordinary that i couldnt do pre C5, now ive not just tried to go back and pull one room in Devotion ( used to be Asectics ) and have come here whining about it, i spent the first week and a half that C5 came out watching my wifes SE chew through the mana now on something that used to be trivial for us being light blue / Green mobs in respect to Pole parties.
Now ive also stated, when its Tank vs 1 monster, no problem, i doubt any tank / healer combo has a problem when it comes to Tank vs 1 monster even with the revisied version of Greater Heal, the problem arises its ugly head when you started to fight groups of mobs and try to pole xp like i used too or have been for the last 2 years. When i think about it after doing some more testing with tank vs 1 mob while typing this, the Greater Heal is acually pretty awesome in this aspect of gameplay, now add in the fact that you could get a BD and SwS and probally never even need to be healed, which was also pointed out earlier on in this thread before it was derailed.
After all this, like another SE pointed out in here it was a double nerf to SE's for the simply fact that not only is their healing potential less effcient now, but its also alot less in terms of X amount healed over any given amount of time, and i can guarantee no matter how anyone tries to spin it now without testing it themselves that the difference in healing over any given amout of time falls to sceanrio 2 and 3, sceanrio 1 is fine if you dont take on group mobs or try to polearm.
And thats what this is ALL about, the amount healed over any certain amount of time given to how mana consuming it really is, for the sake of all fairness, use both sceanrios where a WC or SE is in the group cause if its not a WC + EE / Bishop its a SE + PP just so people can get something going until the perfect group becomes aviable to them reguardless of wether it be a clan group or a group of friends from different clans who always group and they say to the group " Ok, i gotta run, see ya all round " cause he knows that SE + PP is no where near as safe or as effceint in terms of healing potential compaired to sceanrios 2 and 3.
Now, to save anymore stupid rehasing, let me rehash this once more because i cannot emphasis this enough for the reading impaired, i dont want something given back to push EE's / Bishops out of the road again, i want to see EE's and Bishops getting groups over SE's but id also like to see Greater Heal get adjusted so that it still performs a decent role in group / polearm parties.
Notice i mention Greater Heal here, not SE's, keep that in mind.
Not all of this post is directed at you ethier Larielle, so please dont take offense to it.
I didn't misinterpret what you said Rain, I read it very carefully. The thread is titled "SHILLEN ELDERS AND HEALING" and as I said in my initial post I did in fact see that you listed a WC as a buffer...good for you, you correctly read and comprehended the class' function.
What no one seems to understand, is that an SE is just as effective now in all of the scenarios that they used to be effective in before, with the exception of AoE parties. Period!
The changes were good ones. Period!
Once again, OF COURSE HAVING MULTIPLE HEALERS PROVIDES YOU WITH MORE HEALING...that's like saying if you have 2 archers they will do more damage than 1. Well no kidding!
However, in most instances outside the catacombs two healers are not needed or even wanted...1x and 2x mobs are just as easily killed with 4-5 people as with 9...and 2 healers in a 4 man party means you're not killing as fast as you should because you gave a DD spot to a character that isn't doing the party any good.
In this case, unless you're a nuker party (and it could be argued that Emp and WM2 > WM2 and higher regen even in a nuker party), you don't want an EE...with VERY few offensive buffs, you don't want a prophet with virtually no healing ability after a buff cycle (although it's a better choice than an EE) a Bishop is complete overkill and again provides you with no real offensive buffs to speed along kill time....you want an SE.
You want an SE because they have all the core melee offensive buffs, and because unlike the WC (who's still just a buffer after all) they can spot heal when needed. In most 1x and 2x hp mob areas it's not kill time, but run time that slows a party down so effective targetting will greatly reduce the loss of damage from the lack of haste, and assuming you're burning shot will make the hit to everyone's pocket book a good deal less.
You said it yourself...a WC IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR AN SE....and nor, quite clearly, is a BD.
If a WC, or a BD, or a Bish, or an EE can't run said small party as effectively as an SE (and they never have been able to and never will) then the SE is still doing EXACTLY what they have been designed to do since the beginning.
They are, again, NOT designed for large groups, sieges, or PvP...they are endurance healers...they're marathon runners...just like an SH is more effective with their mana pool than an SpS so is a SE more effective than an EE...doesn't mean that each doesn't have their place, and the changes introduced in C5 have solidified that place, but SE's with the exception of AoE groups are JUST AS STRONG AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
but SE's with the exception of AoE groups are JUST AS STRONG AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
This seems born out in game atm also, 3 weeks after C5, and still party matching is constantly full of "GLF SE" , and not a single "GLF Bish" or "GLF EE" , havent even seen a "GLF healer " yet.
Might be yet more changes on the cards if this one isnt perceived to have worked.
We searched for a BD a total of 4 hrs tonight. A BD is a popular class too. Only ones were 40-44 subclasses. Too bad the aoe's in MoS would one hit them..
lol, i have played almost every class and I must say I always came back to my BD (Finally almost 70 after 1.5 yrs).
A bd is a fun class because you are a pve machine and no group can do even 75% of their potential without one.
But I will say this, dancing every two minutes does suck sometimes. Especially when you just want to watch tv and right click on the targeter. Dont pay attention for 2 seconds and ppl are on your back lol. The best thing is you have your choice of any party.