I posted a while ago a question about SAs for SHs and was promptly told that, pvp wise, it was crazy to do anything other than faster cast time. I would like to think there's another way.
I currently have a level 40 SH with full Demon set and a Sword of Whispering Death with Magic Power. I am working towards the following dyes +4Int/-4Wit, +4Men/-4Wit, +4Con/-4Str(if I can apply it, I haven't checked yet) or -8Men/-8Wit with the Con dye.
Yes I know I'm going to cast reaaaaallllyyyy slow, so what? I would like to test what would happen and yes this is my main. Anyone else done this? Care to discuss it?
wow, I've never done that and I don't think I've ever met anyone who was willing to not only forgo the cast speed bonus but nerf them even more as well. You can do the -str/+con but why the +men? I'm just curious about your reasoning for this build. Is it just a "I want to do it different from everyone" or are you trying to acheive something else?
Incidentally, I built my SH with the +int,+wit, +con build but I went with Matk sets until I hit A grade at which point I was so sick of my slow cast speed that I got an acumen weapon and a DC set. It would be really cool to see a vid of you casting with that set up. Personnaly I think you'll go nuts before lvl 41.
Very interesting, but the way I figured it (I've an SpS alt btw) is 2 nukes probably outdamage 1 big nuke. Unless you crit, then mob/player is prolly a goner anyways.
I haven't tried that set up exactly the same way you have it. I did howeever go with full demon set with a +3 homu w/ acumen. I had +4 int -4 men +4 con -4 str and a +4 wit -4 men tats. Just with the +4 int and the +4 int from the demon set I was hitting extremely hard in the level 40-50 catacombs. Not to mention quick also cause of the acumen.
Your set up will be great for solo PVE you should be able too 2 shot pretty much anything in your level range (1X mobs - 2X mobs obviously ^^) But if you plan to pvp you'll be dropped like a sac of potatoes by anyone else before you get a shot off.
Correct me if I'm wrong and if I am then well this post is dead, but doesn't Men affect, MP regen, Mdef, and chance of being interrupted?
Everyone sacrifices their Men for the faster casting speed and is therefore interrupted more easily, which gives rise to the idea of I need to outcast everyone else including archers.
I want to try a different way, I'm going to improve my chances of not being interrupted etc and then hit you with one or two really big nukes.
I'm a very patient person, I've yet to reach B grade on any character and I've been around since OB. Splatter still beats me as slowest person to level.
I haven't bought the dyes yet, but I'll take a replay and upload it once I do. Also I don't think I'm the only one doing somethig like this. A clan mate of mine is building a similar set up, but he's not lvl 40 yet and he's going sorc.
MEN:
Increases magic defense, maximum MP, MP recovery speed, poison resistance, and curse resistance. Decreases probability of magic interruption.
edit: I'll take a screen of my stats when I get home tonight and upload it. Right now my MAtk is around 501 and the sword isn't even enchanted yet. As I add things to the build I'll keep taking screens and posting them :).
Dont waste your money on +4/-4 Con / Str.
Go to the store and buy the -5 Str. / +4 Con lesser dyes. Alot cheaper then getting +4/-4's from mammon or off the street. Another -1 Str. isnt anything for an SH.
Decreased probability it might be (hmmm... sound like yoda there) but will it decrease it enough. If you are fighting, say, a spellsinger or Sorceror they are going to be hitting you very rapidly. even 2 interupts might cause issue as you are relying upon a large chunk of damage for that casting.
The other thing is I wonder if you are going to do "enough" damage (over time) to justify the build.
It's an interesting experiment and I wish you luck with it.
Decreased probability it might be (hmmm... sound like yoda there) but will it decrease it enough. If you are fighting, say, a spellsinger or Sorceror they are going to be hitting you very rapidly. even 2 interupts might cause issue as you are relying upon a large chunk of damage for that casting.
The other thing is I wonder if you are going to do "enough" damage (over time) to justify the build.
It's an interesting experiment and I wish you luck with it.
For mass PvP I think the build would be great, as well as for leveling. One on one though? Might be a problem. Who knows really until you try it.
That is the question isn't it, will it be enough and would the +8 Men be better for it than +4 Int +4 Men. I will try the latter first and see what happens. As to the damage over time I'm hoping on the set and the weapon to be the balancing part of that. Thank you for the good wishes :).
That is the question isn't it, will it be enough and would the +8 Men be better for it than +4 Int +4 Men. I will try the latter first and see what happens. As to the damage over time I'm hoping on the set and the weapon to be the balancing part of that. Thank you for the good wishes :).
Well, you can't have +8 Men. The Highest you an bring any stat is +5.
MEN does affect spell interrupts. But, with your proposed set up you would get -9 total WIT = -45% cast speed. You get +8 INT which is about +32% Matk or about +15% to damage. I don't remember what the Magic Power SA does...
You are going in a decent direction to focus on maximizing INT for Matk; however, the +MEN/-WIT does not make sense to me. Similarly, putting -WIT on the INT tattoo doesn't make sense. Better to just eliminate the +MEN tattoo completely. If you don't want to go for cast speed then use this slot for +4 DEX so you can run faster (saves time picking up stuff and gives you a chance to run away if you get in trouble, at least until you're in your 5x levels). The benefits of preserving MEN instead of WIT are minimal. You will have slightly more MP pool and will regen slightly better but this will be completely overshadowed by the use of Body to Mind to regen MP. In my opinion you should switch the tattoos to go -MEN.
My personal tattoo set up is +4 INT, +5 WIT, -11 MEN (I went on the cheap and got +1 WIT, -3 MEN). I also have DC armor for another +2 WIT, -2 MEN. So I have +4 INT, +7 WIT, and -13 MEN. I also have a set of Demon armor I switch to if I need an Matk boost. I kill every mob before it gets close to me and even when they hit me I rarely am interrupted (I have Conc 6 buff though). So for PvE it is certainly far better to go for casting speed and forget about MEN. Now, for PvP MEN is important (to resist magic attacks) but cast speed is even more important in PvP (I want to get Silence off fast...).
I would propose for you to go Demon Set, +4 INT, +4 WIT, and +4 CON or +1 WIT for the 3rd tattoo. Another option might be +4 INT, +4 DEX, +4 CON. For these tattoos use -MEN or -STR as appropriate. Use the Acumen2 or Acumen3 potions for an additional cast speed boost. If you don't have access to an Empower buff then you may want to have the 3rd tattoo be +1 INT and you may use the Magic Power SA to ensure you can kill mobs in 2 shots. Basically for PvE you want to always be able to kill in 2 shots and for XP use the overhit spell whenever it is ready.
For an SH you have awesome HP and MP management but to use them effectively you have to cast fast (Vamp Claw and Corpse Life Drain for HP and B2M for MP).
Good luck. If you do decide to go -WIT I would buy from the Giran or Rune shop (get the +4 INT, -5 WIT) to try it out first. I don't think you will like that set up. This will be a much cheaper way to experiment.
I tried -3 wit +3 men in my late 40s, also with a demon robe and sword of whispering death with magic power, because I reasoned that during PVE I'd benefit from the men more than the wit. (not for interruption, but for MP regen). I could get my second shot off without them getting too close, no problem, and the slight increase in MEN was good to have... but I decided the things I was fighting were getting a little too fast, and a little too tricky for me to keep the lowered wit.
If one had access to acumen and other buffs constantly, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to favor MEN over WIT with the right choice of prey while going PVE, but I can only assume that the creatures will get worse. At 60 I'm still using the demon/sowd setup, but I have my avadon and homu in the warehouse should I find greener pastures. Or a boxed buffer like most other SH. :o
MEN won't help you with MP management as an SH, since sacrificing WIT for MEN, by default, means that you sacrifice massive amounts of BtM mana. Natural regeneration can't hope to weigh that up.
I dont know about the SA on that sword either. If i remember right, the +32 bonus or w/e you get doesnt stack first before you buff. Meaning you will never get more then +32. You wont get the % bonus on your base stat, which, imo, isnt worth it at all. If your going to bring down casting speed, i would use Acumen instead. My 51 Howler uses a +8 Homoc / Acumen, +4 Int -4Men +5 Con / -4 Str. and the Demon set. I love the build. WIth Empower 1 she nearly one shots the middle mobs of Dragon Valley.
MEN won't help you with MP management as an SH, since sacrificing WIT for MEN, by default, means that you sacrifice massive amounts of BtM mana. Natural regeneration can't hope to weigh that up.
I didn't just stop casting body to mind after every kill ya know Maline, just because I had that men. :)
I posted a while ago a question about SAs for SHs and was promptly told that, pvp wise, it was crazy to do anything other than faster cast time. I would like to think there's another way.
I currently have a level 40 SH with full Demon set and a Sword of Whispering Death with Magic Power. I am working towards the following dyes +4Int/-4Wit, +4Men/-4Wit, +4Con/-4Str(if I can apply it, I haven't checked yet) or -8Men/-8Wit with the Con dye.
Yes I know I'm going to cast reaaaaallllyyyy slow, so what? I would like to test what would happen and yes this is my main. Anyone else done this? Care to discuss it?
Here's the bottom line:
It's about DPS - Damage Per Second - but over a longer period of time, like an hour.
I think you will find that sacrificing that much casting speed in favor of slightly higher max mp and mp regen rate doesn't pan out to more damage per hour. For an SH it ends up being less because of BtM.
In PvP, it's suicide, because although you hit harder, he casts nearly twice as fast. You are not going to hit him that much harder.
Thank you for those who let me know that I can't do +8 anything, saves me time and money trying to find out :). For those that were asking Magic Power adds 99 MAtk and increases casting cost 15%.
>< OK, I'm sorry if this is so off the wall that not that many people are getting what I'm doing. I don't really care about my mp regen or even the greater mana pool. I don't care about the DPS either over an hour, I'm not trying to reach 70 in the next month or anything like that.
The basic idea is maxime my SHs strength which is his ability to hit really hard. The +Men is to see if I can be interrupted less and for the higher Mdef.
By increasing my Wit with all the dyes sets, buffs, etc I will still not cast as fast as an SPS or a human who will probably have a very similar build for all the reasons stated here and I will cast just as fast as every other SH. What is the point of that? Yes, this is a little of a "I'm doing it because I can and rather not be like everyone else." It is also just an experiment, if I find that it didn't work or that I don't like it then I'll change, I can do that also and move on.
For now I will post the first screen tonight and progressive screens as I add and subtract to the stats.
Thank you all for caring so much about my well being, but I'd rather stick to the topic and discuss the experiment not what's been done already.
I really don't like the magic power SA, especially as a +int SH wearing demon's. The higher your normal matk the less help the magic power SA is but it still costs the same extra mp per cast. With buffs it is even worse as empower doesn’t multiply the matk from the SA.
With a matk of 1800 it would be better to have the empower SA or even no SA on a SoWD. Only 99 of your matk is from the magic power SA and it is costing you an extra 15% mp per cast. This +99 matk gives you a 5.8% increase in matk (1800/1701) and, because damage is based on the square root of matk, you get a 2.9% increase in damage for that 15% mp; it really doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
To the OP: I am interested by your test but I really don't think magic power is the SA to use; this SA is only really useful for low matk characters such as a SpS or even a SK that wants to nuke. Try the empower SA if you must max matk, it doesn’t do anything noticeable but at least it doesn’t do anything bad.
Well every little bit helps and as an SH with b2m and vamp claw the extra mp cost is negligible also. Plus with the +Men it also becomes negligible. Thank you for your coments they are very informational :).
youre gonna have to 1 hit everything if you expect to level.
try hitting a mob twice while youre not wearing robes. thats how slow youre gona cast, friend. as it is even with natural men (no tats) i get interrupted by melee mobs if i dont have my homu + acumen, even self-buffed.
Thank you for the suggestion spudnik. I just tried it with an Enchanted Monster Eye under Ivory tower. Lost 1/2 of my HP and yes it's really really slow, going to try it with a Manashen Gargoyle now. Granted I do have Concentration on so that might have helped with not getting interrupted. I'll try it again when concentration wears off :). Thanks again.
Thank you for the suggestion spudnik. I just tried it with an Enchanted Monster Eye under Ivory tower. Lost 1/2 of my HP and yes it's really really slow, going to try it with a Manashen Gargoyle now. Granted I do have Concentration on so that might have helped with not getting interrupted. I'll try it again when concentration wears off :). Thanks again.
the alternative is to CDL everything after lvl 44.
btm to get your HP down, CDL and start your next nuke (just in case :) ) and throw a heal pot up.
even if cdl doesnt 1 hit everything, your second nuke will finish off the mob, and the hp potion will bring hp up enough for you to btm again so u never run out of mana really.
Ok, was still able to two shot the Manashen Gargoyle successfully only loosing 4/9 of my HP and not getting interrupted. No robes, or pants, just the gloves, boots, helmet, and shield all +3. Casting speed 169, MAtk 444, using BSps and a +0 Sword of Whispering death with Magic Power. Concentration Buff was on. Used two twisters to downt he gargoyle(I haven't been able to find Hurricane sb yet).
Ok, same scenario but now with out concentration. 2nd twister got interrupted so I switched to Aura Burn. Took two Aura Burns with BSps killed the mob. I lost 7/9 of my HP.
I always have Concentration buffed, so I'm going to go with the first results for my conclusions. Conclusion is that it's going to take very very long to level, but I'll still be able to level. For me this is a so far so good. Thanks again for the suggestion :D
OMG 324 casting speed thats below the BASE SPEED Oo
333 is the base casting speed, nukes who are 4 sec to cast takes 4 sec here, your nukes will take longer, even my EE with just acument pots have 900 casting speed. This is scarry.
Going -8 WIT on that, like 40% less casting, your nukes will take 6 sec to cast compared ot like 1 for theos who go +WIT.
Well that would be the -1 Wit from the Demon set. Guess I should get a screen of the casting speed without the gloves. And yes a light elf has the most Wit of all the classes therefore they have the fastest casting speed. Really not that scary :).
Well that would be the -1 Wit from the Demon set. Guess I should get a screen of the casting speed without the gloves. And yes a light elf has the most Wit of all the classes therefore they have the fastest casting speed. Really not that scary :).
well it sorta is.
we dont want you to spend all that money and then die tooo often.
Oh good lord, I see what you're doing but... omg. On the PTS I put my SH in demon robes, couldn't even get tats, but demon robes with a demon staff was so slow I wanted to shoot myself. I can't even IMAGINE demon robes with no acumen weapon AND all that minus to WIT ><
At least you'll have plenty sp from dying all the time for your skills...
I really don't like the magic power SA, especially as a +int SH wearing demon's. The higher your normal matk the less help the magic power SA is but it still costs the same extra mp per cast. With buffs it is even worse as empower doesn’t multiply the matk from the SA.
With a matk of 1800 it would be better to have the empower SA or even no SA on a SoWD. Only 99 of your matk is from the magic power SA and it is costing you an extra 15% mp per cast. This +99 matk gives you a 5.8% increase in matk (1800/1701) and, because damage is based on the square root of matk, you get a 2.9% increase in damage for that 15% mp; it really doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
Totally true...unless you have an SE to keep your mana full or are in a party. Duoing with an SE, I find mana is never a concern. Maximizing exp thus results from magic power.
Everyone sacrifices their Men for the faster casting speed and is therefore interrupted more easily, which gives rise to the idea of I need to outcast everyone else including archers.
When you can cast twice as fast, it does not really bother you when a half of your casts gets interrupted.
When you can cast twice as fast, you can cast twice more vampirics per minute. The same about Fears.
When you can cast twice as fast, you spend twice less HP against ranged attackers, and more than twice less against attackers that need to reach you. Don't forget that your HP is not only your protection from death, but is also the main source of your MP.
I posted a while ago a question about SAs for SHs and was promptly told that, pvp wise, it was crazy to do anything other than faster cast time. I would like to think there's another way.
I currently have a level 40 SH with full Demon set and a Sword of Whispering Death with Magic Power. I am working towards the following dyes +4Int/-4Wit, +4Men/-4Wit, +4Con/-4Str(if I can apply it, I haven't checked yet) or -8Men/-8Wit with the Con dye.
Yes I know I'm going to cast reaaaaallllyyyy slow, so what? I would like to test what would happen and yes this is my main. Anyone else done this? Care to discuss it?
The setup sounds interesting (level 40 SH here as well) I just couldn't see sacrificing my casting spd, especialy since Dark Elfs have the lowest/slowest casting spd in the game out of all nuker classes.
If sleep wasn't nerf I would normally say "ok I can see it working" but now your casting extremely slow & if sleep doesn't land on the target who's running towards you, then you have to wait even longer for the casting time on sleep, & if your spells are interrupted *YIKES* your in some trouble now! :p
Good luck thou, let me know how it works out for ya.
interruptions from mobs haven't been a big deal, I haven't had a chance to go out to the arena and try it out against a player. Sleep is really slow right now to use effectively as a get out of jail free card, so I'm not even using it except as a CC when I'm with a party. I also haven't been able to get all my spell books so I don't have fear or hurricane yet(going to work on that this weekend).
I know this sounds crazy, but I don't actually mind dieing. I'm working on curbing the costs of everything so that it doesn't come out as expensive. Money is not so much of an issue at the moment, but money being money I know it's not going to stay there foreever. Luckily I have a very supportive clan and while I don't want to be a drain on them, I know they'll help out if need be.
I am still betting that between the +Men and the concentration buff that I get interrupted less than someone who sacrificed their Men, but time will tell :).
If anyone has a character at or around level 40 in Gustin that would like to challange me in the Giran arena, please PM me here or in game. :)
I am still betting that between the +Men and the concentration buff that I get interrupted less than someone who sacrificed their Men, but time will tell :).
If anyone has a character at or around level 40 in Gustin that would like to challange me in the Giran arena, please PM me here or in game. :)
You seem to somehow believe that doing +MEN route instead of -MEN somehow increases your magic power. It doesn't. It does not increase your MAtk, and it greatly decreases your damage per second.
It increases your MDef. But much smaller than decrease in your DPS, so it is meaningless even in 1v1 against casters.
It increases the amount of your mana, but still not for much (completely useless in PvE and not so significant in PvP except for maybe sieges).
It increases your resistance to cast interruptions, but it will still be less than one of Orc Mystics, and they are still getting interrupted, especially from players. It does not increase your resistance to stuns, and although it increases your resistance to trance/silence/anchor, it definitely does not compensate the fact that you need twice as much time to kill your opponent.
I'm also doing +int and +con. The MAtck will come from my base Int at 44 plus the +4 Int dye plus the set bonuses and the weapon SA and enchantments. As an SH I have the most Int of any class, with the set bonus and even the tiny little amount the Magic Power I should be able to do more damage than someone with a Wit build and specially to someone who sacrificed their Men.
The +Men and the +Con is to offset the casting interrupts and the stuns. Yes I know it will happen, but will it happen often enough to actually matter if I have the +Men? I haven't bought the dyes yet so this is still all just theory, but thanks to spudnik's suggestion of taking off the robes I was able to simulate it on a mob. Now I'd like to try it with a player if anyone is willing.
I am a 76+ Storm Screamer and have been using the +matk build my whole time. (Refuse to be a cookiecutter nuker)
This includes +4INT, +4Wit and +4 Con with a demon set and a OE'd humo or a +4 SoM (w/o Acumen cause I dont have the lvl 12 yet).
I use a Nightmare set for seige pvp. With PoW and full buffs my cast speed is a perfectly acceptable 850+, I get just under 4k HPand 2k+ CP.. I am considering dropping the +4con tat in favor of a +1 wit for a bit more speed in non -PoW fights.
Max matk using +4 SoM and Demon with dances, PoW.. 3.6k+. Using Nightmare its 3.9k+. Using dark vortex and Death Spike.. everyone (except OL's and tanks at full HP) is at most 3 shots.. most are 2 and a good number are 1 shots.
I prefer to be able to kill someone in 2 shots in 1-2.5 seconds then spamming 4-5 nukes in 2-2.5 seconds.
Its much more mana effecient for a long seige..
Also.. ppl dont expect you to actually do so much damage the first time around.. but they WILL eventually learn and you will be targeted first before DC nukers if your NME is smart.. if they not.. they go for the DC nukers first. :cool:
If you were to use a military analogy...
DC nukers are the fast moving M1 tanks.. they can shoot and move faster the most and do alot of damage in their own right.
M.atk nukers (the small handful of us there are) are the M109 howitizers.. we stick farther back and drop ppl in 1-2 shots before they know happened.
For an matk nuker.. its simple.. if you target them first.. they are dead.. if they target you first.. most likely you are. Cause w/o Prophecy of Water you will be too slow casting to counter someone attacking you 75% of the time.
Mind you this is all related to MASS/group PvP.. 1v1 is totally different.
In 1v1 if you use a setup similar to mine.. i.e nightmare... You get slower casting but you get sleep/fear/root resist.. better chance of landing your silence due to matk and more HP then your DC wearing NME. Problems being in 1v1 they got you pretargeted and can cast faster.. if they go straight for nukes and forgo attempting to sleep or fear you or anythign other then nuke.. they will most likely win if you get canceled. If you are 76+ and land vortex on your first try.. then you will most likely win due to a harder first hit.. you get the HP back that they just nuked off you and you got a fast casting bone to toss.
in short.. in mass PvP the matk build is a viable if unpopular option cause 99% of the people think casting 4 fast nukes in a row is better then 2 shotting.
btw.. nightmare on a DE female Storm Screamer looks alot nicer then the candystripper suit of DC. and you dont look like every other nuker out there
Cookiecutter...carbon copy similar to everyone else.
+5 INT +4 Con or +4 INT +4 DEX +4 CON
are some common alternate plays, but none are as effective in pve. PVP, the +4 dex causes some interesting situations 1v1, especially with light elves. Its effect has been lost as all the tanks picked up root though. +5 int +4 con is still the most "mana regen efficient" nuker setup. Unfortunately, maximizing just mana regen and damage doesn't maximize mana/hr and dps.
I'm also doing +int and +con. The MAtck will come from my base Int at 44 plus the +4 Int dye plus the set bonuses and the weapon SA and enchantments. As an SH I have the most Int of any class, with the set bonus and even the tiny little amount the Magic Power I should be able to do more damage than someone with a Wit build and specially to someone who sacrificed their Men.
The +Men and the +Con is to offset the casting interrupts and the stuns. Yes I know it will happen, but will it happen often enough to actually matter if I have the +Men? I haven't bought the dyes yet so this is still all just theory, but thanks to spudnik's suggestion of taking off the robes I was able to simulate it on a mob. Now I'd like to try it with a player if anyone is willing.
You will do more damage per shot than a wit build, but you will do less damage over time.
Compare the two builds (+Wit/-Men and +Men/-Wit)
First, Weapon Choice - Acumen gives 15% casting speed. Magic Power gives 23 Matk. 23 Matk is nowhere near a 15% boost to damage that Acumen gives. In addition, the higher your level, the less of a % boost you get from Magic Power, because it's a static number.
Acumen weapon wins, hands down.
Now the builds - (tats and robes together)
+8Int/+4Men/-9Wit and +8Int/+3Wit/-8Men
The +Int cancels out - they both have it.
So it's really a question of +4Men/-9Wit or +3Wit/-8Men
Which one is going to pump out more damage in an hour? (for an SH)
It's really a differnce of 12 Wit and 12 Men.
The guy with all that Wit is going to do a TON, and I mean a TON, like 50% more damage per hour because he's going to straight cast that many more spells.
The ONLY way the +Men guy could possibly keep up is if the Wit guy is resting way way way more often. (way more often)
Now I know several SH's with the +Wit build, and the fact is, they rest once an hour, and it's usually to take a break from the game, not because they are out of MP. This is because with the extra Wit, they also cast extra BtM. Also, we have the new HP and MP herbs, both of which help the Wit guy alot.
There it is.
Unless you feel that having +Men is going to double your damage output per hour, there's no way it can beat the +Wit build, because that guy is going to be casting twice as many spells per hour.
For an matk nuker.. its simple.. if you target them first.. they are dead.. if they target you first.. most likely you are. Cause w/o Prophecy of Water you will be too slow casting to counter someone attacking you 75% of the time.
In 1v1 if you use a setup similar to mine.. i.e nightmare... You get slower casting but you get sleep/fear/root resist.. better chance of landing your silence due to matk and more HP then your DC wearing NME. Problems being in 1v1 they got you pretargeted and can cast faster.. if they go straight for nukes and forgo attempting to sleep or fear you or anythign other then nuke.. they will most likely win if you get canceled. If you are 76+ and land vortex on your first try.. then you will most likely win due to a harder first hit.. you get the HP back that they just nuked off you and you got a fast casting bone to toss.
that is exactly what I am trying to avoid with the +Men Tat instead of the +Wit.
Cant avoid cookiecutter when it comes to tats..
I think you can avoid it and that's what I am trying to prove with this experiment. You give me hope thought that even if the experiment fails and +Wit wins out, then I can still do a lot of damage and have a relative casting speed. I think I am going to call your build a more balanced build than what I am planning :gring:, thank you for all the info :).
Well, think about it like this: +WIT means faster casting, which, in turn, means less chances to be interrupted, period. The effect that MEN has on interruption is palpable but not so extreme that it would make up for casting so slowly that your opponent instead of having possibly one chance per nuke to interrupt you suddenly definitely has two every time.
one correction: Magic Power is +99 MAtk. Empower is +23 MAtk
I know it's still not the 15% of Acumen SA, but I look at it this way: that extra 99 MAtk after everything has been added and multiplied is like a feather that finally tips the scales in one direction or another. That little extra might mean the difference between two shotting and 1 shotting someone.
Casting speed can be helped along by buffs and pots, MDef and chance to be interrupted, not so much. Concentration buff helps with being interrupted but as far as I know it's the only thing outside of Men that does. Mdef I'm not sure about any buffs that help with that or not.
I know the goal of most people is to get to the next level as quick as possible so you can get to the end game stuff, not mine. There's different ways to Maximize DPS anyways and damage is one of them. My general goal is to cast the most powerfull nuke possible while at the same time be harder to kill by most other nukers. In that respect the +5 Int sounds appealing, but I would try it with +5 Int / -5 Wit not Men.
Sith we are all aware that any combo can be used (truly your addition of a +dex tat made me laugh).. but in a howlers case.. there are only 2 combos that are considered:
+4 Int/Wit/Con
+4 Int/Wit/+1 Int or Wit
Noone except this OP would consider any other setup. Hence you fail to avoid the cookie cutter tat setup.
Plus you seriously love to argue about everything wether it seems to be common knowledge or not. Considering you are a paly and show no indication of having a nuker (though I'm sure you will post now saying of course you have one) I dont see why you are adding your inexperienced input in a howler/nuker convo. Go tank something ya meatshield.
Waterhouse.. unfortunatly if you do not go for +4 Wit.. you serisously wont cast fast enough in any situation...
In 1v1 they will slaughter you with 4-5 nukes before you finish the first one. Men wont mean anything if they are going straight for nukes rather then wasting time with a debuff.
You wont have to worry about running out of MP cause you gonna be dead too quickly. Using NM with its mp regen bonus makes up for it and while we do cast slower, we do more damage per nuke and use less MP then a speed nuker. This has allowed me to still have a ton of MP while DC nukers are trying to B2m in siege to nuke more. Nor does the matk build stop you from killing plenty of people.
one correction: Magic Power is +99 MAtk. Empower is +23 MAtk
Actually the Magic Power SA is grade dependent..
C grade is 99 matk added.
B grade is more
A grade even more (123 matk I think)
I do not know how much off the top of my head but the matk gets higher the higher your grade. Not sure about the mp hit though.
You say waste time with debuffs? In a 1v1, if I cast slow and fear on a player and they both land seems to me I should have plenty of time to cast 1 nuke without worrying too much and for the second nuke there's always death spike. I know a lot depends on if they land. Well you are more experienced than me I would guess, do they?
Thats gonna depend on what class you are fighting..
If you fighting a melee.. most of their debuffs wont land on you anyways. So yea slow and fear should give you enough time to put the hurt on them if they land.
If you fighting a mage.. they will most likely put you down for the dirt nap 99% of the time if you are on your +Men setup cause Men will only help against debuffs... It wont help against nukes.. and by gimping your wit even more.. you wont have the speed to get anything finished before you're dead.
Vs. an archer.. maybe// maybe not the same.. while they may not be able to cancel your cast.. they will be able to out damage you due to slow casting speed.
Play to the Howlers strength which is matk.. but dont gimp your cast speed in the process.
The way I figured is that Wit and Men are gimped anyways for the DE we have the slowest number for both of all the casters.
It wont help against nukes
This is not entirely true as Men also raises MDef thereby making a nuke less effective. Like I said I might consider the +5 Int / -5 Wit and thereby completely maximize MAtk while not totally gimping cast speed. I don't know yet, heck I don't even know how much the dyes are going to cost on my server :P.
But by removing ANY points from wit you are totally gimping your cast speed. if you intende to pvp your fully buffed cast speed has to be at LEAST over 650 if you want to be useful.
I've tried unbuffed nuking in NM robes with +4wit.. its less then 400 cast speed.. WAY too slow for anything. If you got
-5 wit your cast speeds gonna drop to about 200 or less and you will DIE.
I promise you.. it will be a waste of time and adena to test the -5 wit. You wont cast fast enough for pve much less pvp.
As you said.. mine is a more balanced build.. but totally gimping your cast speed is suicide.
Remember it will also depend on what you are wearing.
With demon and +4 INT I have a total INT of 52, which is fine.. no cast speed gimp from demon
With Nightmare I have an INT of 49 (I think.. not online to look) but my cast speed takes a -2WIT hit due to the NM robes. This HAS to be cancled to some extent wiht the use of a +4 Wit tat. This will give you +2 Wit over base. But the use of full buffs and an acumen weapon will restore your speed to something useful.
If you go -5 Wit and decide to go NM robes.. we are talking cast speeds in the double digits.
Seriously.. dont gimp your casting speed any more.. speed casters can gimp their matk cause they make up for it in # of nukes they can throw.. we cannot make up for slow casting with damage if we are getting hit by someone we dont have targeted.
And while +Men will help mdef.. why bother when you can just get better jewels like everyone else.
not quite true, demon set has a -1 Wit. At level 40 with all my passives I have casting speed of 344 with demon set it goes down to 324. Not a gimp by any means but it's noticeable.
Ok, casting speed assumptions: According to this guys's formulas (http://l2p.bravehost.com/) at -6 Wit (-5 from tats and -1 from demon) I will have aobut 250 casting speed, at -9 Wit it will be around 200. Without the robes I cast at 169, tested it last night and I was still able to survive a white melee mob. Here's another resource (http://usuarios.lycos.es/elmundol2/stats_e.txt). They might not be exact but I still don't see my casting speed dropping below 200, let alone double digits.
If you are getting hit by someone who you don't have targeted then mostlikely you are toast either way since I doubt you'll be able to target them by clicking and might be too slow to target using /target.
As to the jewels coments, what happens when you have top grade jewels all plussed and +Men?
If you are getting hit by someone who you don't have targeted then mostlikely you are toast either way since I doubt you'll be able to target them by clicking and might be too slow to target using /target.
Yea I told you this like a post or 2 ago. You target first.. they die.. they target, first you die...
As for having the +Men and the jewels.. yes it will increase your mdef decently.. however more often then not you are gonna get targeted by archers.. mdef don't stop arrows.
OE'd jewels will do the same for you as +Men with for mdef, w/o the casting speed hit it entails.
You can try your setup if you like... I wouldn't recomend it for PvP though.
btw.. I dont consider naked casting to be base since noone ever runs around casting like that. I consider unbuffed to be base.
not quite true, demon set has a -1 Wit. At level 40 with all my passives I have casting speed of 344 with demon set it goes down to 324. Not a gimp by any means but it's noticeable.
Ok, casting speed assumptions: According to this guys's formulas (http://l2p.bravehost.com/) at -6 Wit (-5 from tats and -1 from demon) I will have aobut 250 casting speed, at -9 Wit it will be around 200. Without the robes I cast at 169, tested it last night and I was still able to survive a white melee mob. Here's another resource (http://usuarios.lycos.es/elmundol2/stats_e.txt). They might not be exact but I still don't see my casting speed dropping below 200, let alone double digits.
If you are getting hit by someone who you don't have targeted then mostlikely you are toast either way since I doubt you'll be able to target them by clicking and might be too slow to target using /target.
As to the jewels coments, what happens when you have top grade jewels all plussed and +Men?
LOL
Casting Speed 200???
He just told you that his casting speed is typically 650 on a regular WIT build.
He is going to cast 3.25 nukes for every one of yours.
Unless you think you are going to do 3.25x as much damage per nuke as he does, he is going to own you in PvP and PvE.
It sounds to me like you won't be convinced though, so go do it man. It's only a few mil worth of tats down the drain if it doesn't work out.
I'm not sure what my MAtk is going to be at Ruri's level, let alone my damage because I don't know what his mdef is.
The test without the robes was to see if I could survive a melee mob with a casting speed of 169. As for the archer I don't know. The point of all of this is that everyone is assuming that slow casting speed is such a really bad trade off, but no one has actually proven it.
If some one has a character in Gustin around lvl 40 I'd be willing to go a few rounds in the arena with and without robes. I'm going to try it with one of my clanies but she only has dwarf, I don't think that would be fair. This wouldn't be an optimal test, but it would give me an idea before I go spend any money on the tats :). So how about it bigs ;)?
lol ok man.. I'll drop you a pm on HuorMelchar later tonight. We've got a couple SH's around your lvl, I don't think they have tats, but I'm sure we can rustle up a homu w/ acumen.
I'm not sure what my MAtk is going to be at Ruri's level, let alone my damage because I don't know what his mdef is.
The test without the robes was to see if I could survive a melee mob with a casting speed of 169. As for the archer I don't know. The point of all of this is that everyone is assuming that slow casting speed is such a really bad trade off, but no one has actually proven it.
If some one has a character in Gustin around lvl 40 I'd be willing to go a few rounds in the arena with and without robes. I'm going to try it with one of my clanies but she only has dwarf, I don't think that would be fair. This wouldn't be an optimal test, but it would give me an idea before I go spend any money on the tats :). So how about it bigs ;)?
If you were to go against me atm your damge would be 1 or failed :P
And yes as I have been trying to point out.. slow casting will be the death of you. You can slow your casting in favor of ore matk but there is a point where its more detrimental to have slow casting.. like when you try to gimp cast speed below race settings.
Believe me I've had dozens of people try to extol the benefits of speed build over damage build. To an extent everyone is right in that speed is what helps to decide a winner.
If you gimp your speed as much as you seem to intend to.. you will see that while you may have decent matk.. the +men -wit setup you are planning is TOO MUCH of a gimp then a normal +4 Wit setup.
But like I said.. go ahead and try. Let us know the results.. looking forward to hearing them :D
I'm...just not quite sure what to say about the -WIT demon set SH.
I'm sure 100 other posters have warned you already, but I can't resist doing the same. Bad, bad idea, and you will not like it even for PvE. There's a reason why even people who can easily afford multiple A robe sets don't whip out sets like Nightmare for PvE; it makes casting and magic skill refresh way too slow. The effectiveness of skills like Body to Mind depends on them becoming available for reuse sometime before the next business day.
+MEN isn't going to do much for you. The most noticeable benefit is a little extra mdef, but the change in your regen from adding to or subtracting from your MEN is quite negligible. Any possible bonus to your chance of not being interrupted while casting is completely irrelevant when you cast like a lvl 7 orc mystic.
I'd be afraid to so much as PvE with this setup unless the mobs were all one-shot deals. Attack fail, get interrupted, or get multiple mobs and you die. Good luck getting enough Slows and Fears off to save yourself, and don't even consider using Sleep :p
Btw, the gimpness of slow casting speed setups is proven over and over again on a daily basis. Ever see a nuker in NM try to PvP a similar-level nuker in DC? Not pretty.
MDef not helpable by buffs? Where do you live? Mdef has two stacking plain buffs, and then a whole series of resist buffs which help a whole chunk.
-WIT against a melee means, plain and simple, that the melee has time to run up to you while you cast. Then you cast so slowly that they will actually interrupt you, and finally do a little dance on your corpse.
Well you really can't examine -wit + men tats vs a melee, that's silly. The idea would simply be to beat nukers. Again, a 5% boost to mdef means 5% less damage taken. Meanwhile a 20% loss of cast speed means 20% less damage dealt. Assuming near equal hp, the cast speed loss is 4x more significant than the mdef gain. Flip it the other way around, and the cast speed gain becomes 4x more significant than the mdef loss. Hence the +wit-men. It offers more benefit than loss.
Every nuker is doing +int and +con. Your only difference is thay you are gimping 5% per point stat which directly affects DPS to buff 1% per point stat which doesn't.
The MAtck will come from my base Int at 44 plus the +4 Int dye plus the set bonuses and the weapon SA and enchantments.
Is there anything you cannot do without +MEN?
The +Men and the +Con is to offset the casting interrupts and the stuns.
Every nuker goes +CON, and stuns still land easily on them. You have too low CON to begin with, it doesn't help you with stuns. It would help you to stay longer, if you could actually make some casts in the time your additional MP runs away. With -WIT setup, you cannot, you just don't have enough speed.
Yes I know it will happen, but will it happen often enough to actually matter if I have the +Men?
Yes, because it means that you have -8 WIT.
I haven't bought the dyes yet so this is still all just theory, but thanks to spudnik's suggestion of taking off the robes I was able to simulate it on a mob.
Thanks to Bighands and his clannie for giving me a couple of duels in the Arena :). Ok here's the summary of the fights which were great imo. Sorry, I got too excited over it and forgot to take screens or a replay :(.
The players:
Bigs clannie: SH at about lvl 40, I think he said 42, MAtk. 488 Cast Speed: 423 Mdef. 405 -10Men I think he said he had on this character, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Me: SH at lvl 40, MAtk. 501 Cast Speed: 394 (w/ a Magic haste pot, maybe I should have used the Greater Magic Haste pot :P) Mdef. 407 demon set so +4 Int and -1 Wit.
First fight:
I was able to successfully cast silence on him without getting interrupted and he lost.
Second fight:
I tried casting silence again, but he interrupted. Started to cast Hurricane and he interrupted. He and I casted a Vamp Claw at about the same time, mine landed for 523 damage and his landed for 512 and I was dead as my HP was already too far gone for the vamp claw to do anything.
Third Fight: Rule: no debuffs just straight nuking.
This one went a little fast so I don't remember well what I casted, but I think I got interrupted once or twice and it ended up with me dieing.
These were interesting fights and I can see why everyone likes the Wit build. It works and it works pretty well. I am still unsure as to what I'm going to do.
My clanmates are a great bunch of people and after talking it over with them I know they'll support whatever I do. That being said I'm sticking with my current set up of the demon set and the SoWD w/ Magic Power. I can two shot just about everything I am hunting solo and when in groups I cause enough damage that I only really need to cast one nuke. There's a couple of things I still need to buy before I buy the tattoos so the experiment is getting put on hold for a while.
Thanks to everyone that commented and helped out, I've learnt a lot from all of you. I'm a very stubborn person so my mind is not changed completely yet. Once I get stabilized again I might tweak the set up a bit to be more balanced like Ruri's.
Going back and reading through the thread I just noticed Ashamon's comment about the Ecliptic Sword. Any one have any more information on this sword and the Greater Empower SA? When I go to mammon my SoWD upgrades to a SLS, if I take the SLS would I be able to upgrade/change it to the Ecliptic sword?
well don't have money for either one of the tats so a mute point at the momen. Also I've never heard of anyone trying this, but then again I was gone for a couple of chronicles. lets leave it at "we'll see what happens"